Tubulars for Brevé?
Pete
for centuries?
Just like to put a good ol' Roval wheel set to good use and rediscover
the noble art of gluing tubs. ;)
bfd
Check out Andy Muzi's Yellow Jersey. He sells his "servizio
corsa" (formerly Clement) are 3 for $50. Or if you *need* fancier, he
sells a Conti Paris-Roubaix 25mm tire for $95. He also sells Panaracer
and Tufo tubies too:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/tt.html
Good Luck!
RonSonic
The Yellow Jersey specials are good cheap tires, better than the standard issue
Vittoria Rallye. If you want something wider than that you'll be paying
substantially more for a Roubaix style tire. Or find a file tread cyclocross
tire.
--
Oh damn. There's that annoying blog. Again. http://dumbbikeblog.blogspot.com
someone
> Any suggestions for a good value, wide and puncture resistant tubulars
> for centuries?
Use a section that fits your rim bed radius. Tub's when used at their
correct running pressure are naturally more resistant than high
pressure wired on tyres. If it's wet, use tyre skimmers. Stay outa
the glass and listen for hedge cutters. A new road tub will have
tread thick enough to assist in puncture prevention.
landotter
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Pete <pedalling.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Any suggestions for a good value, wide and puncture resistant tubulars
> >for centuries?
> >Just like to put a good ol' Roval wheel set to good use and rediscover
> >the noble art of gluing tubs. ;)
>
> The Yellow Jersey specials are good cheap tires, better than the standard issue
> Vittoria Rallye. If you want something wider than that you'll be paying
> substantially more for a Roubaix style tire. Or find a file tread cyclocross
> tire.
The cross tires are gonna run a good $80 as well. I'd just run YJ
tubies on a century. Even the file tread cross tires are probably
going to roll significantly slow on pavement. That said, if I had a
set of tubie wheels kicking around it would be fun to mount up some
super light and puffy cross tires on them, if the loan went through.
RonSonic
Stephen Bauman
I rode many brevets and centuries on tubulars. I reluctantly switched to
clinchers, when I could not afford top of the line tubulars.
I'm reconsidering going back to tubulars because the price of clinchers
is outrageous and I've had 3 tire failures in the last 2 months.
Here are some problems to overcome before taking the plunge. The tubular
benefit comes only from top of the line cold pressed (hand made)
tubulars. That puts you in the $90 to $200 range. They no longer make
tubular strada mastice gutta (rim cement for road use). All the stuff now
comes in much smaller sized tubes that are designed for pista (track)
use. The glues take at least 15 minutes to become tacky. Quick changing a
tire in under 3 minutes is not a possibility with these glues. That does
not bode well for brevets.
I've opted to going back to Jantex rim tape. It's still available in
Europe at reasonable prices (under $5 per roll - good for 2 tires). The
Tufo tape is $10 a pop and extremely difficult to remove.
I was forced to riding tubulars on my Arc-en-Ciel rims last year, while
waiting for my clincher wheel's sealed bearing hub to be fixed. I ordered
some cheap Conti Giro's. I can report that Staten Island's Arthur Kill
Road is still death on tubulars after a thirty year hiatus. That's how I
found out about the new improved tubular glues.
I did not expect any performance from these cheap tubs. They rode like
the Clement Elvezia's of old (the bottom of Clement's line). Also, the
vulcanized tubular casing is really too thick for repairing. I ordered
some of Yellow Jersey's inexpensive tubulars as an emergency backup. My
clincher wheel came back from Phil Wood before I could try them.
The other thing to keep in mind is that you want a frame pump that is
capable of pumping up to 120 psi. Tough work on a hot sunny day. You
never get a tubular flat in the shade.
Stephen Bauman
jay
"hedge cutters"?
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>They no longer make
>tubular strada mastice gutta (rim cement for road use). All the stuff now
>comes in much smaller sized tubes that are designed for pista (track)
>use.
No, it's designed for racing use on roads and track, where the idea is
to hold the tire very tightly.
Cans of cement are still available, suc has
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?pageid=30&action=details&sku=RC3402
someone
machinery to cut hedging. Hedging in the UK is full of thorns. If
you dont have hedges, it doesn't matter.
someone
<usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:18:54 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net>
> wrote:
>
> >They no longer make
> >tubular strada mastice gutta (rim cement for road use). All the stuff now
> >comes in much smaller sized tubes that are designed for pista (track)
> >use.
>
> No, it's designed for racing use on roads and track, where the idea is
> to hold the tire very tightly.
>
> Cans of cement are still available, suc hashttp://aebike.com/page.cfm?pageid=30&action=details&sku=RC3402
But it is a cement and not gutta percha mastic. Vittorias ultra
grabby cement for dual use does at least need to be re activated with
solvent (can it?) and is not ideal for non-racing use. Mastic is like
chewing gum and can be either hard or soft setting. I have a green
can of a soft setting mastic whose name presently escapes me. When
used with a tyre section that matches the rim and applied correctly it
is tenacious and I have experienced no problems due to poor adhesion.
After months of use, the bond requires the use of a lever to seperate
tyre from rim. The remaining mastic along with that on the spare
rebonds on contact which is good for cornering. Full strength is
acheived without additional mastic. Time and riding improves the
cohesion of the two layers of mastic. No solvent is required as the
solvent is only to aid the initial application of the mastic in a thin
layer.
I think if it is not possible to purchase this stuff (Tubasti, I
remembered saving a walk) then test different builders mastic for a
similar effect. May be more likely to find it at a decoraters
merchants.
someone
The Giro is abysmal, spare only. I've had cheapo wired ons work
phenominally better than this tyre. They are too narrow for your rims
anyway, and check the seam bulge. You shouldn't be runnuing tubs at
120psi, thats what gives you a crap ride. Wider tyre. Isn't the Arc
en Ceil for a 24mm section tyre like the Vittoria's (Rally?) training
tub they advewrtise at 21mm and 23mm? I managed to get myself a
collection some years back of Hutchinson training tubs that are fully
cold assembled. They really were an eye opener at how cheap a good
tyre can be. The (cotton) casing is without joint and the tread is
straight but the seam protrudes and the latex protection is slipshod.
I am in the process of going through those tubs when they puncture to
correct them. I am happy running these (24mm) tubs at 90psi and less.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>On 4 Sep, 23:32, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
><usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:18:54 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >They no longer make
>> >tubular strada mastice gutta (rim cement for road use). All the stuff now
>> >comes in much smaller sized tubes that are designed for pista (track)
>> >use.
>>
>> No, it's designed for racing use on roads and track, where the idea is
>> to hold the tire very tightly.
>>
>> Cans of cement are still available, suc has http://aebike.com/page.cfm?pageid=30&action=details&sku=RC3402
>
>But it is a cement and not gutta percha mastic.
What is gutta percha mastic? Why did Stephen Bauman say mastice gutta
is rim cement? And why does the product I pointed to say mastic on
the can?
Wait,
Vittorias ultra
>grabby cement for dual use does at least need to be re activated with
>solvent (can it?) and is not ideal for non-racing use.
I think tubulars for non-racing use are silly.
> Mastic is like chewing gum and can be either hard or soft setting.
OK. Is the stuff in the can I pointed to which says mastic not
mastic.
> When
>used with a tyre section that matches the rim and applied correctly it
>is tenacious and I have experienced no problems due to poor adhesion.
So it holds just was well as the Vittoria I pointed to?
>I think if it is not possible to purchase this stuff (Tubasti, I
>remembered saving a walk)
Ahh, I've used Tubasti. Definitely does not hold as tightly as the
VIttoria.
someone
> Ahh, I've used Tubasti. Definitely does not hold as tightly as the
> VIttoria.
I think that tubasti is just gutta percha, which I think is just
chewing gum in it's basic form. AFAIK gutta percha is the basic term
for the product as extracted and initially treated from whatever plant
source it is from. It is used in caulking for decorators hence my
suggestion that a decorators supplies may be more likeely to have the
raw product than a building supplies.
Tubasti is tight enough for touring use and the second bond is as good
as the first although will take a little time and mileage to develop.
I have not used Vittoria's Mastik 1, but from the reports believe that
because it sets hard its second use bond is inferior to the genuine
soft mastic of tubasti in this application. It may indeed be a hard
setting mastic, containing fillers and synthetic polymers. It may
just be of a mastic type product without gutta. Would you chew it?
landotter
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT), landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 3, 12:55 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Pete <pedalling.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Any suggestions for a good value, wide and puncture resistant tubulars
> >> >for centuries?
> >> >Just like to put a good ol' Roval wheel set to good use and rediscover
> >> >the noble art of gluing tubs. ;)
>
> >> The Yellow Jersey specials are good cheap tires, better than the standard issue
> >> Vittoria Rallye. If you want something wider than that you'll be paying
> >> substantially more for a Roubaix style tire. Or find a file tread cyclocross
> >> tire.
>
> >The cross tires are gonna run a good $80 as well. I'd just run YJ
> >tubies on a century. Even the file tread cross tires are probably
> >going to roll significantly slow on pavement. That said, if I had a
> >set of tubie wheels kicking around it would be fun to mount up some
> >super light and puffy cross tires on them, if the loan went through.
>
>
> Enjoy.
>
Those are sweet. However, I just mounted up a set of WTB Interwolf 38s
on the city/tour ride so I'm all good. Cheap (10 bux at Gnashbar),
light enough (420g), quiet on pavement, and stupidly fun on the local
fire trails.
My fave all round tire was similar to the Vittorias, a 700c skinny
version of a Michelin "Country Rock" called the Idylis which I found
as a one-off at a shop in Chicago years ago.
landotter
> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT), landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 3, 12:55 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Pete <pedalling.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Any suggestions for a good value, wide and puncture resistant tubulars
> >> >for centuries?
> >> >Just like to put a good ol' Roval wheel set to good use and rediscover
> >> >the noble art of gluing tubs. ;)
>
> >> The Yellow Jersey specials are good cheap tires, better than the standard issue
> >> Vittoria Rallye. If you want something wider than that you'll be paying
> >> substantially more for a Roubaix style tire. Or find a file tread cyclocross
> >> tire.
>
> >The cross tires are gonna run a good $80 as well. I'd just run YJ
> >tubies on a century. Even the file tread cross tires are probably
> >going to roll significantly slow on pavement. That said, if I had a
> >set of tubie wheels kicking around it would be fun to mount up some
> >super light and puffy cross tires on them, if the loan went through.
>
>
> Enjoy.
Dang, I didn't see that those are 220tpi cotton tubies at first--
Vittoria does a clincher that looks similar. That's a stupendous deal,
then.
RonSonic
My experience with the more heavily treaded model was good. Not ultimate
traction for cross, but the things are rugged and held up to trail riding very
well.
datakoll
Ben C
Gutta percha is also used for root-canal fillings.
someone
All temporary fillings, although it is an expensive source of tub
glue.
Stephen Bauman
wrote:
>
>
> No, it's designed for racing use on roads and track, where the idea is
> to hold the tire very tightly.
>
Road racing rules have changed quite a bit since Coppi's time.
http://top-10-list.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fausto-coppi.jpg
Riders were expected to change their own tires. See him carrying one
tubular wrapped around his body and another in the sock attached to the
saddle?
Today a support van comes up and replaces either the entire bike or just
the wheel.
The necessity for changing a tire on the existing rim (whether by rider
or mechanic) places an additional criteria for the adhesive that is used.
This additional set includes time required to remove an existing tire and
the time required from when the adhesive is applied to when the tire can
be ridden without fear of rolling it.
These additional time criteria was what differentiated the strada (road)
and pista (track) adhesives. A puncture during a track race usually
results in a loss. Similarly, there is no necessity for these time
criteria under the current road racing rules. How long it took to place
the tubular on a spare wheel is simply immaterial. Today's track & road
racing tubular adhesive is really yesterday's track adhesive.
Brevet rules differ from road racing rules. Remember the subject - the
application is for riding brevets. Accompanying vehicles are not
permitted along the route (except within a few kilometers of a control).
Being caught accepting aid from an accompanying vehicle outside the
control area is grounds for immediate disqualification. The brevet ideal
is self sufficiency of the rider. Coppi's travails with tubulars and the
adhesive used are what counts.
> Cans of cement are still available, suc has
> http://aebike.com/page.cfm?pageid=30&action=details&sku=RC3402
Continental also comes in a large can. That's not the point. How many
coats have to be applied? What is the waiting time between applying
coats? What is the waiting time to mount the tire on the rim after the
last coat has been applied. What is the waiting time before the mounted
tubular can be ridden? If the total time is more than a a minute, then it
cannot be used in a brevet.
Stephen Bauman
RonSonic
Of course it can. Nobody can replace a tube in less than a minute, or should
even if it were possible. In fact, replacing a tube cannot possibly be done in
less time than a sewup. Used tires with glue still on them make the best spares
they're already stretched, go on easily and stay there once inflated. It would
not be unreasonable to break in a couple of tires for use as spares for a
special event.
Tri-dorks do deliberately spotty glue jobs to make the tire change faster if
needed. No, they don't roll tires either.
Modern road glue is still the gummy, gloppy stuff it always has been, not the
shellac of old school track racing.
It is air pressure that holds the things on. Glue helps, a lot. But these glues
under pressure will seat themselves. You do not need to reglue to install a
spare on the road.
Stephen Bauman
As I said, I was neither surprised nor disappointed that the Giro did not
compare favorably to the Clement: del Mondo's (silk); Speciale Corsa
(cotton version of the del Mondo); Paris-Roubaix (silk and cotton) and an
occasional Criterium Seta that I used many years ago. I needed some
tubulars because tubular wheels were all that were available to me for
about one month.
> They are too narrow for your rims
> anyway, and check the seam bulge.
The Giro is about as wide as the old Clement Criterium. They were used
with Arc-en-Ciel rims.
> You shouldn't be runnuing tubs at
> 120psi, thats what gives you a crap ride.
The label on the Giro says 120 psi as do the instructions on the box
containing it. I used to ride my top of the line Clement's at 120 psi.
The high pressure will reduce rolling resistance and pulverize glass. The
tubular profile will also reduce road vibration despite the high
pressure. There is one big difference and that's the tub's resiliency.
Stand up on a bike with any of the abovementioned high end Clement's and
the bike will move instantly. Stand up on a Giro (or the old Eleizia) and
zilch. That's due to the difference between vulcanized and cold press
construction.
>Wider tyre. Isn't the Arc en
> Ceil for a 24mm section tyre like the Vittoria's (Rally?) training tub
> they advewrtise at 21mm and 23mm?
There was no variation in rim width between Super Champion's different
tubular rims. They fit all tubulars from a 220 gm Criterium Seta Extra to
a 540 gm Continental Touring IV. I've just checked the rim strip width
between the Giro and an old del Mondo. They are the same.
> I managed to get myself a collection
> some years back of Hutchinson training tubs that are fully cold
> assembled. They really were an eye opener at how cheap a good tyre can
> be. The (cotton) casing is without joint and the tread is straight but
> the seam protrudes and the latex protection is slipshod. I am in the
> process of going through those tubs when they puncture to correct them.
> I am happy running these (24mm) tubs at 90psi and less.
Hutchinson had a rather unsavory reputation thirty years ago, when I rode
tubulars exclusively. They were known more for a characteristic sound
they frequently made while being ridden rather than for any riding
characteristic. That sound was - boom. The got more flats and blowouts
than other brands save Canetti.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
<snip>
>>
>>Continental also comes in a large can. That's not the point. How many
>>coats have to be applied? What is the waiting time between applying
>>coats? What is the waiting time to mount the tire on the rim after the
>>last coat has been applied. What is the waiting time before the mounted
>>tubular can be ridden? If the total time is more than a a minute, then
>>it cannot be used in a brevet.
>
> Of course it can. Nobody can replace a tube in less than a minute, or
> should even if it were possible. In fact, replacing a tube cannot
> possibly be done in less time than a sewup. Used tires with glue still
> on them make the best spares they're already stretched, go on easily and
> stay there once inflated. It would not be unreasonable to break in a
> couple of tires for use as spares for a special event.
>
Please re-read my post. I did not claim a 1 minute tire change. I stated
that the waiting time from the first application of glue to being able to
mount the new tire should be not be greater than 1 minute. That implies a
complete tire change in 3 minutes, which is not unreasonable.
<snip>
> Modern road glue is still the gummy, gloppy stuff it always has been,
> not the shellac of old school track racing.
>
Directions on a tube of Continental Special Rim Cement
Directions for use
1. Buff the rim base and clean with petrol or similar solvent
2. Apply Continental Special Rim Cement thinly and evenly rim base and
seam protector.
3. Allow bonding cement to dry for at least 15 minutes
4. Then apply a second coat to the rim base . Fit the tyre on the rim.
Pump the tyre up, keeping it positioned in the centre of the rim.
My experience has been that the rim cement has no adhesive property for
those 15 minutes.
The EU promulgated VOC (volatile organic compounds) regulations that
required the reformulation of all tubular cements. US VOC regulations
caused reformulation of Fast Track in 2005. There's been a pause that
causes brevet sew up riders to miss a control ever since.
> It is air pressure that holds the things on. Glue helps, a lot. But
> these glues under pressure will seat themselves. You do not need to
> reglue to install a spare on the road.
I thought the same thing 26 years ago. I was 20 kilometers from finishing
my second PBP, when I had a rear flat. I replaced the tub without gluing
because it was raining and I thought I could avoid rolling the tire by
being careful. After the tubular rolled off the rim for the third time, I
applied Clement road rim cement in a bus shelter. I did not roll the
tubular after that.
Stephen Bauman
someone
> Please re-read my post. I did not claim a 1 minute tire change. I stated
> that the waiting time from the first application of glue to being able to
> mount the new tire should be not be greater than 1 minute. That implies a
> complete tire change in 3 minutes, which is not unreasonable.
Which I think may be possible even with the likes of Mastik 1.
> > Modern road glue is still the gummy, gloppy stuff it always has been,
> > not the shellac of old school track racing.
Only Mastik 1 is hard setting
> Directions on a tube of Continental Special Rim Cement
>
> Directions for use
>
> 1. Buff the rim base and clean with petrol or similar solvent
> 2. Apply Continental Special Rim Cement thinly and evenly rim base and
> seam protector.
Wetting the base tape with the relevant solvent first will help to
draw in the cement.
> 3. Allow bonding cement to dry for at least 15 minutes
Shows that it is a volatile solvent and not water. It only needs to
dry so that the surface does not wet your finger, after pressing your
finger should come up clean and dry.
> 4. Then apply a second coat to the rim base .
If there is already sufficient cement then the surface just needs
reactivating by brushing on a little solvent. A lot of contact
adhesives use acetone as the solvent, a good sniff easily identifies
it. Sold as nail polish remover if you dont get it from a paint
supplies.
> Fit the tyre on the rim.
> Pump the tyre up, keeping it positioned in the centre of the rim.
Doesn't take too long to get it rough n ready.
>
> My experience has been that the rim cement has no adhesive property for
> those 15 minutes.
True, the solvent must evaporate for the polymer to bond to the
substrate. The solvent is effectively a lubricant to help in the
spread of the polymer.
>
> The EU promulgated VOC (volatile organic compounds) regulations that
> required the reformulation of all tubular cements. US VOC regulations
> caused reformulation of Fast Track in 2005. There's been a pause that
> causes brevet sew up riders to miss a control ever since.
Once the adhesive polymer is affixed to the tyre and the rim in its
dry state as a spare and a rim which has had its punctured tyre
removed, the adhesive requires 'reactivation' using a suitable solvent
to allow cohesion to take place between the two separate layers. Heat
may also be used to soften the layers enough so that they mingle and
form one. You would need to carry a plumbers propane can/torch to get
this done quick. A brush and a small bottle of solvent are all that
is needed. Probably acetone, try it.
>
> > It is air pressure that holds the things on. Glue helps, a lot. But
> > these glues under pressure will seat themselves. You do not need to
> > reglue to install a spare on the road.
This is only because riding generates the heat and massages the layers
together, this may not work in colder weather depending on the
adhesive used.
>
> I thought the same thing 26 years ago. I was 20 kilometers from finishing
> my second PBP, when I had a rear flat. I replaced the tub without gluing
> because it was raining and I thought I could avoid rolling the tire by
> being careful. After the tubular rolled off the rim for the third time, I
> applied Clement road rim cement in a bus shelter. I did not roll the
> tubular after that.
The rain kept the rim and tyre cold preventing the usual bonding to
take place. Applying the cement reactivated the existing adhesive by
introducing the solvent and permitted the cohesion to take place
without heating. Riding still helps in ensuring a complete bond.
High tyre pressure should be used until the cohesion is complete.
24hrs is the usual recommendation for a new rim and tyre but I doubt
this is necessary if judicious use of solvent and/or heat is used.
When you are forced into riding immediately you have no choice so must
make the best effort in the time permitted. Use a brush and some
solvent to reactivate the adhesive polymer. Use as little as will do
the job, you cannot do better in the short time allowed.
someone
> On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:15:40 -0700, someone wrote:
>
> > The Giro is abysmal, spare only. I've had cheapo wired ons work
> > phenominally better than this tyre.
>
> As I said, I was neither surprised nor disappointed that the Giro did not
> compare favorably to the Clement: del Mondo's (silk); Speciale Corsa
> (cotton version of the del Mondo); Paris-Roubaix (silk and cotton) and an
> occasional Criterium Seta that I used many years ago. I needed some
> tubulars because tubular wheels were all that were available to me for
> about one month.
I ended up with a giro because I went out with one spare and punctured
it so bought another on route so I didn't have to sit at the roadside
repairing a tub. The day was too good to return home. I fitted that
tub at the next puncture on the front and found it so awful it's never
been on since, I still carry it as a second spare but have not needed
it. I dont even know what the casing is, I thought at the time (2002
possibly) it may have been polycotton, I never found out because it
was just too bad.
>
> > They are too narrow for your rims
> > anyway, and check the seam bulge.
>
> The Giro is about as wide as the old Clement Criterium. They were used
> with Arc-en-Ciel rims.
>
> > You shouldn't be runnuing tubs at
> > 120psi, thats what gives you a crap ride.
>
> The label on the Giro says 120 psi as do the instructions on the box
> containing it. I used to ride my top of the line Clement's at 120 psi.
Sorry, riding giros gives a crap ride whatever pressure and I agree
that the excessive amount of vucanised rubber is to blame.
> The high pressure will reduce rolling resistance and pulverize glass.
No, you wont reduce rolling resistance on a giro, it'll always be
crap.
>The
> tubular profile will also reduce road vibration despite the high
> pressure.
Still rides like a roller coaster truck through the sand dunes.
>There is one big difference and that's the tub's resiliency.
> Stand up on a bike with any of the abovementioned high end Clement's and
> the bike will move instantly. Stand up on a Giro (or the old Eleizia) and
> zilch. That's due to the difference between vulcanized and cold press
> construction.
I'm not making excuses for a shyt tyre. Remember you have a good fuel
source there if you start feeling the cold, just dont be downwind of
the offending tyre.
>
> >Wider tyre. Isn't the Arc en
> > Ceil for a 24mm section tyre like the Vittoria's (Rally?) training tub
> > they advewrtise at 21mm and 23mm?
>
> There was no variation in rim width between Super Champion's different
> tubular rims. They fit all tubulars from a 220 gm Criterium Seta Extra to
> a 540 gm Continental Touring IV. I've just checked the rim strip width
> between the Giro and an old del Mondo. They are the same.
I managed to pass on a collection of various Super Champion Sprints
and got myself a pair of Saturnes (like GP4s) believed to be for
Specialized and a pair of Fiamme Ergals. If I can sort out the front
end of my old 'clubmans' frame then I will use the Fiammes on that.
Pencil stays, lightweight 531DB, really a little too light for me. In
hindsight I should have got some of those Champion rims because I
already knew how easy they were to build with and how reliable they
were. The Ergals got to me, so light. I forgot I was after the
Monthlery's. I forgot about Super champ quality, so light. I was
obsessed with their lack of weight. Did I tell you how light they
were? They are under 10oz with ferrules, so, so light.
I'd expect the rim bed to be 23mm DIA (11.5mm radius) to take a 22mm
(or 7/8") tyre. They could be for 15/16" or 1" tyres. A 15/16" tyre
will be most likely nominally marked as 23mm and a 1" as 25mm
although the rim bed would be almost 25mm DIA or 12.5mm R for the '
23mm ' tyre.
Take some coins and match one to the rim bed then measure its
diameter. This will give you the size of tyre you need, as long as it
has a flat seam. Allow a mm extra for a base tape, so a tyre which
measures 22mm across when fully inflated really needs a bed which
matches with a 23mm coin because of the thickness of the tape. A tyre
which is a little wider is OK but one which is narrower than ideal
will not be well bonded at the edge of the rim due to excessive
thickness in the adhesive. The real problem arises with a protruding
seam on a narrow tyre on a ferruled rim. The combination you
described seemed to match that. Unless you managed to get Giro's with
flat seams. I find that hard to believe.
>
> > I managed to get myself a collection
> > some years back of Hutchinson training tubs that are fully cold
> > assembled. They really were an eye opener at how cheap a good tyre can
> > be. The (cotton) casing is without joint and the tread is straight but
> > the seam protrudes and the latex protection is slipshod. I am in the
> > process of going through those tubs when they puncture to correct them.
> > I am happy running these (24mm) tubs at 90psi and less.
>
> Hutchinson had a rather unsavory reputation thirty years ago, when I rode
> tubulars exclusively. They were known more for a characteristic sound
> they frequently made while being ridden rather than for any riding
> characteristic. That sound was - boom. The got more flats and blowouts
> than other brands save Canetti.
>
These were about 10 years ago and I was warned by the seller not to
use them above 105psi because they would split if I hit a grate at
speed. Er, I have used them above 105, but not at the 115 I was
thinking of. They didnt go boom when I hit grates at speed. But
that is by the by. They are fully cold constructed and work well at
less than 90psi and I have no need to improve their rolling efficiency
at the expense of comfort. It does seem odd that they are a
relatively low count casing yet are much easier rolling than high tpi
casings which have been impregnated and vulcanised. I was not aware
of this when I bought my first lot but quickly went back for more.
They have been relatively puncture free and have worn lightly. Is
this usual for tubs, that they wear less than HP's? Or is it specific
for the coldprocessed tubs?
RonSonic
>On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 23:16:50 -0400, RonSonic wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>
>>>Continental also comes in a large can. That's not the point. How many
>>>coats have to be applied? What is the waiting time between applying
>>>coats? What is the waiting time to mount the tire on the rim after the
>>>last coat has been applied. What is the waiting time before the mounted
>>>tubular can be ridden? If the total time is more than a a minute, then
>>>it cannot be used in a brevet.
>>
>> Of course it can. Nobody can replace a tube in less than a minute, or
>> should even if it were possible. In fact, replacing a tube cannot
>> possibly be done in less time than a sewup. Used tires with glue still
>> on them make the best spares they're already stretched, go on easily and
>> stay there once inflated. It would not be unreasonable to break in a
>> couple of tires for use as spares for a special event.
>>
>
>Please re-read my post. I did not claim a 1 minute tire change. I stated
>that the waiting time from the first application of glue to being able to
>mount the new tire should be not be greater than 1 minute. That implies a
>complete tire change in 3 minutes, which is not unreasonable.
My mistake then, that's how I read "total time."
Three minutes is not unreasonable.
Okay, there's a worst case scenario. Was there any glue on the spare? I suppose
it might not matter. Thank whatever it is you thank for good luck that the stem
didn't tear out and flat you with that little to go. Congratulations on the
finish.
I'll have to defer to the greater experience in this discipline.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>On Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:32:58 +0000, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
Thanks for the lecture, all of which I knew, other than the DQs in
brevets.
But you miss the most fundamental reason about why tubulars are put on
more securely nowadays: high quality clinchers are widely available
which are better in any situation in which the rider might need to
change the tire himself. So there is no need for glue that is
compromise between quck adhesion and quality of adhesion. If anything,
that's what's reduced interest in soft sticky glue.
JTP p/b JFT
PS - sticky glue like you seem to want was still in use 30 years ago
when road races were run under modern rules, so your Coppi bit is a
distraction.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>
>Modern road glue is still the gummy, gloppy stuff it always has been, not the
>shellac of old school track racing.
It's not shellac, but it's Continental and Vittoria's top products are
a little "harder" than, say Tubasti of the soft Clement that people
used 20 years ago.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> In fact, replacing a tube cannot possibly be done in
>less time than a sewup. Used tires with glue still on them make the best spares
>they're already stretched, go on easily and stay there once inflated. It would
>not be unreasonable to break in a couple of tires for use as spares for a
>special event.
I can put a tubular on perhaps a little faster than I can put on a
clincher, though if if want to confirm that the tire is on straight,
there may be no difference.
BUT there is something about changing a tubular on the road that is a
lot slower -- getting the tire off. A tubular glued right (for road
racing at least) is a bear to get off. With the clinchers I use
(Schwalbe mainly), getting them off when flat is really fast.
>Tri-dorks do deliberately spotty glue jobs to make the tire change faster if
>needed. No, they don't roll tires either.
OK, I suppose if I glued a tubular on badly it'd be faster. I don't
think that's a good idea if one corners fast.
Stephen Bauman
wrote:
<snip>
>
> But you miss the most fundamental reason about why tubulars are put on
> more securely nowadays: high quality clinchers are widely available
> which are better in any situation in which the rider might need to
> change the tire himself. So there is no need for glue that is
> compromise between quck adhesion and quality of adhesion. If anything,
> that's what's reduced interest in soft sticky glue.
>
Let me present a reason which may be more fundamental to the brevet
context. The object is to finish a brevet; every brevet entrant should be
able to do that. Unless one is carrying a foldable spare, a tire cut
means abandoning the brevet. Tubulars replace the tire and tube in one
shot.
The reason I'm considering going back to tubs is that I've experienced 3
tire failures in the last 2 months. Two occurred while I was scouting a
ride and was far from transportation. That ride was yesterday and one
rider got a cut in a tire. He opted to take the train back. (I always
carry a foldable spare when riding clinchers.)
My two reasons for switching to clinchers were cost and cost. The initial
cost was less and replacements were less frequent. This year's experience
has led me to question both assumptions. I've had $50+ clinchers, ridden
exclusively on paved roads, last less than 500 miles. The $90 range
tubulars are looking pretty good in comparison.
>
> PS - sticky glue like you seem to want was still in use 30 years ago
> when road races were run under modern rules, so your Coppi bit is a
> distraction.
Until Shimano came along, bike equipment makers kept manufacturing old
equipment. The soft sticky glue that Coppi required 50 years ago, was
available 30 years ago. Soft sticky meant that tires could be quickly
removed.
Stephen Bauman
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> The label on the Giro says 120 psi as do the instructions on the box
> containing it. I used to ride my top of the line Clement's at 120
> psi. The high pressure will reduce rolling resistance and pulverize
> glass.
You forgot that the higher effective spring rate makes you faster when
you climb out of the saddle.
> The tubular profile will also reduce road vibration despite the high
> pressure.
"The tubular profile?" It's round. Just like all other bike tires
except for those with weird thick treads.
> There is one big difference and that's the tub's resiliency. Stand up
> on a bike with any of the abovementioned high end Clement's and the
> bike will move instantly. Stand up on a Giro (or the old Eleizia) and
> zilch. That's due to the difference between vulcanized and cold press
> construction.
Just like magic!
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> If the total time is more than a a minute, then it cannot be used in
> a brevet.
What utter bullshit you spout, Stephen. This whole thread is full of
little but foolishness on your part, touting the magical properties of
tubulars and the split-second rigors of brevets. Clinchers have long
since equalled and and in most cases surpassed tubulars in performance
and usability.
But this last bit is the best howler of all! Standard brevet time
limits are 13h30 for a 200K, 20h for a 300K, 27h for a 400K, 40h for a
600K, 75h for a 1000K and 90h for a 1200K. I've ridden 12-14 brevets
and never once was there a situation where spending more than 1 minute
replacing a tire would cost me a finish. If you're cutting it that
close, you need to learn to ride faster. And of course a brevet is not
a race, unless you're silly enough to think that it is, so who cares
about changing a flat taking longer than a minute?
You must really howl if you have to stand in line for 2 minutes at a
controle. If you've done PBP, Loudeac must have been a trial and a
tribulation for you.
Get a grip, man.
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:07:44 +0000, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by
> JFT wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > But you miss the most fundamental reason about why tubulars are put
> > on more securely nowadays: high quality clinchers are widely
> > available which are better in any situation in which the rider
> > might need to change the tire himself. So there is no need for
> > glue that is compromise between quck adhesion and quality of
> > adhesion. If anything, that's what's reduced interest in soft
> > sticky glue.
> >
>
> Let me present a reason which may be more fundamental to the brevet
> context. The object is to finish a brevet; every brevet entrant
> should be able to do that. Unless one is carrying a foldable spare, a
> tire cut means abandoning the brevet.
Only if it can't be repaired. I've finished brevets with a boot made
from a folded dollar bill and several non-brevet rides with Park boots.
It'd be a pretty badly cut tire that couldn't be ridden home without one
of those methods. I've only once carried a spare tire on a brevet (PBP,
unnecessary given that French roads are much cleaner than American
roads- I saw zero broken glass on roads in France) and had no use for it.
> The reason I'm considering going back to tubs is that I've
> experienced 3 tire failures in the last 2 months. Two occurred while
> I was scouting a ride and was far from transportation. That ride was
> yesterday and one rider got a cut in a tire. He opted to take the
> train back. (I always carry a foldable spare when riding clinchers.)
>
> My two reasons for switching to clinchers were cost and cost. The
> initial cost was less and replacements were less frequent. This
> year's experience has led me to question both assumptions. I've had
> $50+ clinchers, ridden exclusively on paved roads, last less than 500
> miles. The $90 range tubulars are looking pretty good in comparison.
I find the standard $20 Panaracer Pasela rides as well or better than
any clincher I've tried, is readily available in most bike shops, and
comes in a wide variety of sizes. The 700 x 28 and the 559 x 32 feel
remarkably like del Mundos. I have not yet had a failure with the
Panaracers in two years of use. They wear out in about 2500 miles on
the rear, though, so replacement is fairly frequent. They roll quite
well. I've got 700 x 25 on two bikes and don't like them quite as well
as the larger sizes.
$50 for a clincher seems pretty silly to me.
Tom Sherman °_°
Stop using foo-foo tires then.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
Celebrity culture is an opposite of community, informing us
that these few nonsense-heads matter but that the rest of
us do not. - Jay Griffiths
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:07:44 +0000, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> But you miss the most fundamental reason about why tubulars are put on
>> more securely nowadays: high quality clinchers are widely available
>> which are better in any situation in which the rider might need to
>> change the tire himself. So there is no need for glue that is
>> compromise between quck adhesion and quality of adhesion. If anything,
>> that's what's reduced interest in soft sticky glue.
>>
>
>Let me present a reason which may be more fundamental to the brevet
>context.
My statement above isn't wasn't commenting on the "brevet context" -
it's pointing out why the vast number of consumers stopped needing
tubular glue for which performace after a roadside repair is
important., and why such a product is rarer or nonexistent nowadays.
>The object is to finish a brevet; every brevet entrant should be
>able to do that. Unless one is carrying a foldable spare, a tire cut
>means abandoning the brevet.
Hahahaha. You're lecturing about reliability being critical and you
think a tire cut is the end of the ride? Maybe if the cut is 4 inches
long, but the vast majority of tires with cuts can be made rideable
with a sheet of tyvek put on the inside. Weight is perhaps 3 grams
and it can get you goigg fine. In a pinch, good paper currency works
too.
>Tubulars replace the tire and tube in one
>shot.
>
>The reason I'm considering going back to tubs is that I've experienced 3
>tire failures in the last 2 months. Two occurred while I was scouting a
>ride and was far from transportation.
You're doing something wrong if you destroy tires at that rate. Your
tires are too light, too narrow, overinflated, underinflated or
mis-installed. Or some combination of those things.
> The soft sticky glue that Coppi required 50 years ago, was
>available 30 years ago. Soft sticky meant that tires could be quickly
>removed.
Yeah, wise riders don't care about that anymore
Michael Press
Frou-frou.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blackadder_III_-_Nob_and_Nobility.jpg>
<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=frou-frou>
--
Michael Press
Stephen Bauman
> In article <VcCdnZiTo-uOvT7X...@speakeasy.net>,
> Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
>
>> If the total time is more than a a minute, then it cannot be used in a
>> brevet.
>
> What utter bullshit you spout, Stephen. This whole thread is full of
> little but foolishness on your part, touting the magical properties of
> tubulars and the split-second rigors of brevets. Clinchers have long
> since equalled and and in most cases surpassed tubulars in performance
> and usability.
>
Please re-read the context of that quote. The one minute is the time
interval from the application of rim cement to when the tubular can be
mounted without fear of it rolling off. That corresponds to a 3 minute
tire change.
Today's rim cement requires a wait of 15 minutes before applying a second
coat. That translates to an 18 to 20 minute tire change. That's the
figure I claim is unacceptable for a brevet context.
> But this last bit is the best howler of all! Standard brevet time
> limits are 13h30 for a 200K, 20h for a 300K, 27h for a 400K, 40h for a
> 600K, 75h for a 1000K and 90h for a 1200K. I've ridden 12-14 brevets
> and never once was there a situation where spending more than 1 minute
> replacing a tire would cost me a finish. If you're cutting it that
> close, you need to learn to ride faster.
More than 25% of the finishers completed PBP in more than 85 hours in
2003, according to the PBP website. Given the rules for determining the
closing times for the intermediate controls, it is reasonable to presume
that a significant number of finishers were cutting things quite close.
If somebody is running with a one or two hour closing cushion, then 20
minutes spent replacing a tubular is a significant chunk of time.
> And of course a brevet is not
> a race, unless you're silly enough to think that it is, so who cares
> about changing a flat taking longer than a minute?
>
What one cares about is finishing a brevet. This is especially true for
the prestige events like PBP. It requires a considerable investment in
training time, not to mention the expense of traveling a great distance
to Paris. Coming back without that medal is a bummer.
> You must really howl if you have to stand in line for 2 minutes at a
> controle. If you've done PBP, Loudeac must have been a trial and a
> tribulation for you.
>
Funny you should mention Loudeac. The 90 hour ride started at 4 am, when
I rode PBP. I had planned to maintain a minimum of 2 hours cushion for
control closings. That minimum occurred when trying to reach the next
control, after sleeping for the night. My first two nights sleep were at
Tinteniac and Carhaix. That made Loudeac the first control I had to make
on days 2 and 3, following a 5 am start.
My worry was not the meal line. It was having to fix a mechanical
problem, on the road, in the dark with very little time to spare. I added
to my cushion, as I rode throughout the day. By nightfall, I'd
accumulated enough cushion to squander on a night's sleep. BTW, there was
a nice restaurant about half a kilometer from the control (near the
railroad crossing) that served a good, quick breakfast.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
<snip>
>> Let me present a reason which may be more fundamental to the brevet
>> context. The object is to finish a brevet; every brevet entrant should
>> be able to do that. Unless one is carrying a foldable spare, a tire cut
>> means abandoning the brevet.
>
> Only if it can't be repaired. I've finished brevets with a boot made
> from a folded dollar bill and several non-brevet rides with Park boots.
> It'd be a pretty badly cut tire that couldn't be ridden home without one
> of those methods. I've only once carried a spare tire on a brevet (PBP,
> unnecessary given that French roads are much cleaner than American
> roads- I saw zero broken glass on roads in France) and had no use for
> it.
>
I share your assessment regarding the quality of roads used for PBP but
they are not completely void of broken glass or other hazards. I'd assume
that the current financial problems would teach one not to rely on glass-
free credit swaps and carry a spare tire for riding PBP.
<snip>
> I find the standard $20 Panaracer Pasela rides as well or better than
> any clincher I've tried, is readily available in most bike shops, and
> comes in a wide variety of sizes. The 700 x 28 and the 559 x 32 feel
> remarkably like del Mundos. I have not yet had a failure with the
> Panaracers in two years of use. They wear out in about 2500 miles on
> the rear, though, so replacement is fairly frequent. They roll quite
> well. I've got 700 x 25 on two bikes and don't like them quite as well
> as the larger sizes.
>
I'll give it a try. $20 is better than $90. I also ride 700c x 28's. I'll
have to find a shop that handles them. I'll be satisfied if they handle
and last like Michelin 50's. I'm not looking for del Mondo performance.
> $50 for a clincher seems pretty silly to me.
I agree. That's what the local bike shops are selling. That's why I'm
reconsidering using tubulars.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
<snip>
>> The tubular profile will also reduce road vibration despite the high
>> pressure.
>
> "The tubular profile?" It's round. Just like all other bike tires
> except for those with weird thick treads.
>
Road vibration is a significant fatigue source for long distance brevets.
The PBP roads I used were mostly the equivalent blue stone roads in the
US. They did not have pot holes but they did produce a lot of vibration.
One key to vibration control in the industrial world is to eliminate all
direct connections from the vibration source.
There is such a connection for clinchers. Vibration will move from the
road-tire interface, through the tire to the bead-rim interface. That's a
direct connection. The vibration will then connect from the rim to the
hub via the spokes. Then hub is connected to the fork and the fork is
connected to the handlebar, etc.
Tubular mounting is different. The round profile prevents direct
vibration transmission through the tire to the rim. There is no hard
connection between them. That rim cement that reduces rolling resistance
also isolates vibration picked up from the road from going to the rim.
Stephen Bauman
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:33:58 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > In article <VcCdnZiTo-uOvT7X...@speakeasy.net>,
> > Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> >
> >> If the total time is more than a a minute, then it cannot be used
> >> in a brevet.
> >
> > What utter bullshit you spout, Stephen. This whole thread is full
> > of little but foolishness on your part, touting the magical
> > properties of tubulars and the split-second rigors of brevets.
> > Clinchers have long since equalled and and in most cases surpassed
> > tubulars in performance and usability.
> >
>
> Please re-read the context of that quote. The one minute is the time
> interval from the application of rim cement to when the tubular can
> be mounted without fear of it rolling off. That corresponds to a 3
> minute tire change.
>
> Today's rim cement requires a wait of 15 minutes before applying a
> second coat. That translates to an 18 to 20 minute tire change.
> That's the figure I claim is unacceptable for a brevet context.
Clearly making tubulars a non-starter. They are no longer a relevant
tire selection for the vast majority of purposes. Your explanation is
clearer than the original context. But 1 minute is far too stringent to
be realistic.
> > But this last bit is the best howler of all! Standard brevet time
> > limits are 13h30 for a 200K, 20h for a 300K, 27h for a 400K, 40h
> > for a 600K, 75h for a 1000K and 90h for a 1200K. I've ridden 12-14
> > brevets and never once was there a situation where spending more
> > than 1 minute replacing a tire would cost me a finish. If you're
> > cutting it that close, you need to learn to ride faster.
>
> More than 25% of the finishers completed PBP in more than 85 hours in
> 2003, according to the PBP website. Given the rules for determining
> the closing times for the intermediate controls, it is reasonable to
> presume that a significant number of finishers were cutting things
> quite close.
>
> If somebody is running with a one or two hour closing cushion, then
> 20 minutes spent replacing a tubular is a significant chunk of time.
Indeed. Some of them were the victims of bad planning, inadequate
preparation, poor sleep management, etc. Some of them just were not
riding fast enough (when I see randonneurs riding 14 mph an hour into a
brevet, there's a problem there). Some were having health problems
(like me, like the people I met with Shermer neck, intractable vomiting,
inability to sit on a saddle, edema, etc.) and that's hard to budget
time. However, if one doesn't finish within the time limits it's pretty
hard to put the blame on changing a flat. If you're that close on time
there are other problems that need to be addressed. The flat tire is
just the scapegoat.
I didn't go to PBP 2007 for a variety of reasons and don't feel like I
really missed anything. Trench foot and many hours of rain are not my
cup of tea (although the British riders seemed to wonder what all the
fuss was).
> > And of course a brevet is not a race, unless you're silly enough to
> > think that it is, so who cares about changing a flat taking longer
> > than a minute?
> >
>
> What one cares about is finishing a brevet. This is especially true
> for the prestige events like PBP. It requires a considerable
> investment in training time, not to mention the expense of traveling
> a great distance to Paris. Coming back without that medal is a
> bummer.
It is.
http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/brevets6-2003.html
> > You must really howl if you have to stand in line for 2 minutes at
> > a controle. If you've done PBP, Loudeac must have been a trial and
> > a tribulation for you.
> >
>
> Funny you should mention Loudeac. The 90 hour ride started at 4 am,
> when I rode PBP.
10:00 PM start for the 90H riders in 2003. What year did you ride?
> I had planned to maintain a minimum of 2 hours cushion for control
> closings. That minimum occurred when trying to reach the next
> control, after sleeping for the night. My first two nights sleep were
> at Tinteniac and Carhaix. That made Loudeac the first control I had
> to make on days 2 and 3, following a 5 am start.
Loudeac was actually quite entertaining in 2003, watching the furious
and whiny petulantly demanding a place to sleep- most of them Americans.
And the Jonestown-like appearance of the cafeteria with bodies all over
the floor and people passed out in their food. I had time in hand for
four hours of sleep there and had planned to sleep there again on the
way back. Things turned out otherwise, of course.
> My worry was not the meal line. It was having to fix a mechanical
> problem, on the road, in the dark with very little time to spare. I
> added to my cushion, as I rode throughout the day. By nightfall, I'd
> accumulated enough cushion to squander on a night's sleep. BTW, there
> was a nice restaurant about half a kilometer from the control (near
> the railroad crossing) that served a good, quick breakfast.
I ate at the controles and patisseries/boulangeries, but would probably
have been better off skipping the meals at the controles and eating at
restaurants. One of those live and learn things.
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
I buy mine at my LBS:
http://hiawathacyclery.com/cart/
They do mail order, but I'd be surprised if some shop didn't stock them
in your area.
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
You've got a number of inaccurate beliefs there, Stephen.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>That rim cement that reduces rolling resistance
>also isolates vibration picked up from the road from going to the rim.
Bwahahaha.
Any softness in rim cement increases rolling resistance, except
perhaps on gravel, dirt, off-road.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>> Only if it can't be repaired. I've finished brevets with a boot made
>> from a folded dollar bill and several non-brevet rides with Park boots.
>> It'd be a pretty badly cut tire that couldn't be ridden home without one
>> of those methods. I've only once carried a spare tire on a brevet (PBP,
>> unnecessary given that French roads are much cleaner than American
>> roads- I saw zero broken glass on roads in France) and had no use for
>> it.
>>
>
>I share your assessment regarding the quality of roads used for PBP but
>they are not completely void of broken glass or other hazards. I'd assume
>that the current financial problems would teach one not to rely on glass-
>free credit swaps and carry a spare tire for riding PBP.
You glossed over the most important part of what Tim wrote above- that
it's simple to deal with a tire cut on a clincher.
I'll assume you are filing that info for future use and not ignoring
it.
bjwe...@gmail.com
>
> Let me present a reason which may be more fundamental to the brevet
> context. The object is to finish a brevet; every brevet entrant should be
> able to do that. Unless one is carrying a foldable spare, a tire cut
> means abandoning the brevet. Tubulars replace the tire and tube in one
> shot.
>
> The reason I'm considering going back to tubs is that I've experienced 3
> tire failures in the last 2 months. Two occurred while I was scouting a
> ride and was far from transportation. That ride was yesterday and one
> rider got a cut in a tire. He opted to take the train back. (I always
> carry a foldable spare when riding clinchers.)
Sheez. How big was this cut?
Carry some pieces of a Tyvek envelope, and a
boot made from an old tire if you're really worried.
Replace tires before a big event if the sidewalls
look damaged, since wholesale sidewall failure
is a PITA on any type of tire.
Also, a folding clincher is no more burden than a
spare sewup, but I don't want to make this a clincher
vs tub flamewar. I'm more interested in advocating
practical repairs.
This happened to me once:
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~bjw/misc/rbt/badflat.jpg
I booted the tire with Tyvek and rode home (had
to change the tube, of course). (In the interest of
full disclosure this is actually a reconstruction;
I kept the screw and put it back in after I got home
to take the picture. It really did look like that
though.) This is certainly the easiest "find the
object that caused the flat before installing new tube"
case I have had.
Ben
Tim McNamara
RonSonic
Oh yeah, he's got a notebook he fills with the wisdom gleaned here. Carries it
everywhere.
Michael Press
Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/brevets6-2003.html
Interesting, but I stopped reading when I found out
he attempted PBP with a wonky wheel and no expertise;
with a bad knee; and with a bad achilles tendon.
Arnica? He'd have gotten farther with morphine and benzedrine.
--
Michael Press
AMuzi
Anquetil rode more than OK that way. Simpson not so much.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Michael Press
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <timmcn-F0AA68....@news.iphouse.com>,
> > Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >
> >> http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/brevets6-2003.html
> >
> > Interesting, but I stopped reading when I found out
> > he attempted PBP with a wonky wheel and no expertise;
> > with a bad knee; and with a bad achilles tendon.
> > Arnica? He'd have gotten farther with morphine and benzedrine.
> >
>
> Anquetil rode more than OK that way. Simpson not so much.
I still say Simpson would be alive today if
the race rules had not severely restricted
the water a rider could have.
--
Michael Press
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
On rough terrain tire wiggle may help. Though rolling resistance is
so bad in general on those situations, that it might be moot.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
>This happened to me once:
>
>http://www.astro.umd.edu/~bjw/misc/rbt/badflat.jpg
>
>I booted the tire with Tyvek and rode home (had
>to change the tube, of course).
Cool.
Tom Kunich
news:26vaa5hio9mredmmm...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:35:57 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net>
> wrote:
>
>>If somebody is running with a one or two hour closing cushion, then 20
>>minutes spent replacing a tubular is a significant chunk of time.
>
> tubular? Never heard of pre-gluing?
People that haven't used tubulars themselves have all sorts of crazy ideas
about them. Unless you're riding turns at racing speeds you don't even need
a good glue joint. The heating from braking will soften the old glue and by
the end of a ride your tubular will be glued perfectly well.
Nevertheless I use tube tires since they are so much easier to repair when
necessary. And in the USA mending tubulars is almost a full time occupation
necessitated by broken glass all over the street and no street cleaning for
months on end.
While in Europe I seldom saw any discarded trash. Unlike the USA where it is
the norm. Day before yesterday I rode past a discarded refrigerator, stove
top and several other items dumps on the mountain road when it probably
would have been easier to take them to the local trash site.
RonSonic
>"Still Just Me." <noEmai...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote in message
>news:26vaa5hio9mredmmm...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:35:57 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>If somebody is running with a one or two hour closing cushion, then 20
>>>minutes spent replacing a tubular is a significant chunk of time.
>>
>> I'm missing something here... why does it take 20 minutes to change a
>> tubular? Never heard of pre-gluing?
>
>People that haven't used tubulars themselves have all sorts of crazy ideas
>about them. Unless you're riding turns at racing speeds you don't even need
>a good glue joint. The heating from braking will soften the old glue and by
>the end of a ride your tubular will be glued perfectly well.
Our OP had a traumatic experience with that toward the end of a very wet PBP.
That was why it is an issue in this conversation. Yes, generally you just slap
on the replacement and take it easy in the corners. Apparently that doesn't work
in a downpour.
>While in Europe I seldom saw any discarded trash. Unlike the USA where it is
>the norm. Day before yesterday I rode past a discarded refrigerator, stove
>top and several other items dumps on the mountain road when it probably
>would have been easier to take them to the local trash site.
Hard to know. In my neighborhood the local solid waste authority is real big on
the "authority" part and trying to get out of the "solid waste" bit as much as
possible. Not an excuse, but an explanation.
Tim McNamara
Phil W Lee <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
> I had the bead seperate from the sidewall of my front marathon once,
> and completed the day ride by booting it with an empty toothpaste
> tube. It was rather lumpy, and undermined my downhill confidence
> (hey, if my front tyre is gonna blow apart, I want to be going slow).
My friend Doug had a similar tire failure about 50 km from the end of a
400K. He happened to have a tube of super glue (I have never figured
out why he happened to be carrying this on a bike ride), and glued the
casing back over the bead. He finished the ride and used the tire for
another week or so.
Tim McNamara
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <timmcn-F0AA68....@news.iphouse.com>,
> Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/brevets6-2003.html
>
> Interesting, but I stopped reading when I found out
> he attempted PBP with a wonky wheel and no expertise;
> with a bad knee; and with a bad achilles tendon.
It was perhaps not clear that this was autobiographical.
My wonky wheel was not by choice, having had it bent up by the airline
(the case looked like it had gotten run over). No suitable replacement
was available in St. Quentin en Yvelines (neither a rim nor a complete
wheel, the only "bike shop" being a general sporting goods department
store selling fashionable bike stuff). So I had to make do as best I
could. Without access to the necessary tools during the ride, there
wasn't a lot I could do myself.
The bad knee turned out to be a torn medial meniscus which was
undiagnosed at the time and was surgically corrected in 2005; the bad
knees during the ride were caused by iliotibial band tendonitis and not
directly related; the Achilles tendonitis I suffered on the 600K had
abated by PBP and was not a problem except for a couple of twinges.
> Arnica? He'd have gotten farther with morphine and benzedrine.
True, but neither were available to me at the time. I did try a French
anti-inflammatory creme which was not noticeably helpful; neither were
large quantities of NSAIDS. I was offered paracetamol by the Croix
Rouge along with the creme. Unfortunately it did not help.
Ah well. It was educational and I had more fun than bad times on that
trip, although not as much fun as on my trip to the Alps the previous
year.
Tom Kunich
>>is
>>the norm. Day before yesterday I rode past a discarded refrigerator, stove
>>top and several other items dumps on the mountain road when it probably
>>would have been easier to take them to the local trash site.
>
> the one containing refrigerant. So, instead of paying for disposing of
> their own waste, they dump it on the public.
I don't know where you live but here in the San Francisco bay area we have
any number of places that will accept appliances for free. Some will even
pick them up.
> We see the same thing in many Corporations that feel it's OK to spew
> out any pollution they want - the public space is theirs to use as a
> dumping ground.
Wait a minute - didn't you just have another face on?
Michael Press
Still Just Me. <noEmai...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:01:52 -0700, "Tom Kunich"
> <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> It would have cost money to dispose of the appliances, particularly
> the one containing refrigerant. So, instead of paying for disposing of
> their own waste, they dump it on the public.
>
> We see the same thing in many Corporations that feel it's OK to spew
> out any pollution they want - the public space is theirs to use as a
> dumping ground.
It is a reaction to severe laws governing these things.
"What do you mean the dump will not take it? Take this!"
--
Michael Press
someone
<usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 21:11:25 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net>
> wrote:
>
> >That rim cement that reduces rolling resistance
> >also isolates vibration picked up from the road from going to the rim.
>
> Bwahahaha.
>
> Any softness in rim cement increases rolling resistance, except
> perhaps on gravel, dirt, off-road.
It is only really a problem when there is much cement between rim and
tyre at the edge. When the tyre section matches the rim it will
outperform (Rolling resistance included) a similar tyre counstructed
as a wired on. The thickness of the adhesive has to be taken into
account along with its hysteresis of elasticity,
someone
<usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:51:48 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net>
A roll of adhesive fabric tape is good for any puncture, if the tyre
still stands up when you stop with a puncture, turn the wheel until
you find the hole and wrap the tape on the outside of the tyre.
Really good if you have hub brakes. I have used this a lot on both
wired on and tubs when rain or time constraints meant I did not want
to stop.
someone
Cloth handlebar tape is a good repair material. If you dont use that
then there is a peice of cloth for those who use velox rim strips.
You can cut off a big a length as you need and either put a patch over
an exposed hole and spoke end or cut the tape again so as to have two
gaps in the tape but with all spokes covered. The strip does not have
to be continuous to do its job for a short time. I have used cotton
handlebar tape on a half worn tyre with an 8mm cut running around
115psi with a lightweight high tpi casing. It needed replacing once
to run the tread down to the cover, I had many more cuts and about 10
sticking plasters. Zinc oxide or micropore tape from a medical
emergency kit may also work although I've not tried this I thin the
zinc oxide tape would last.
someone
> In article <tkg9a59ls1rvuaaiqsjsnk1bbgbcnp3...@4ax.com>,
> Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 21:11:25 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >That rim cement that reduces rolling resistance also isolates
> > >vibration picked up from the road from going to the rim.
>
> > Bwahahaha.
>
> > Any softness in rim cement increases rolling resistance, except
> > perhaps on gravel, dirt, off-road.
>
> It would have the same effect there. How could it not?
Er, tub's are so vastly superior to wired-on tyres over rough ground
that rolling resistance due to excessive layer of high hysteresis
adhesive are irelevant.
someone
> In article <h83nfo$fc...@news.eternal-september.org>,> > > In article <timmcn-F0AA68.00335107092...@news.iphouse.com>,
> > > Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > >>http://www2.bitstream.net/~timmcn/brevets6-2003.html
>
> > > Interesting, but I stopped reading when I found out
> > > he attempted PBP with a wonky wheel and no expertise;
> > > with a bad knee; and with a bad achilles tendon.
> > > Arnica? He'd have gotten farther with morphine and benzedrine.
>
> > Anquetil rode more than OK that way. Simpson not so much.
>
> I still say Simpson would be alive today if
> the race rules had not severely restricted
> the water a rider could have.
Diarrhoea was his problem. So what do you think caused that?
Opiates when used in sufficient levels to combat pain, bung you up.
If you're bunged up, you cannot perform on a bike so you need to
loosen things up so you have bowel motions before riding. So what is
a rider to do when there is only a couple of hours to go before the
stage start and he still has not had a bowel motion from the day
before? Get on the bike and perform poorly because his belly was
hard, not an option in Simpson's position. The guy had diarrhoea
during the stage and lost both fluid and salts. The drinks raids
would likely not have contained the necessary electrolytes which are
standard issue in rehydration drinks. He died of a heart attack no
doubt partly at least due to a salt inbalance along with his desire to
win the tour.
someone
> In article <rubrum-BF06E9.12125407092...@news.albasani.net>,
> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <timmcn-F0AA68.00335107092...@news.iphouse.com>,
A heating massage oil especially if it is for arthritic pain can be
good in cases of tendonitis. Using a warming muscle rub generally on
the legs and lower back will help prevent overtoned muscles and the
injuries they lead to.
Stephen Bauman
<snip>
>> Please re-read the context of that quote. The one minute is the time
>> interval from the application of rim cement to when the tubular can be
>> mounted without fear of it rolling off. That corresponds to a 3 minute
>> tire change.
>>
>> Today's rim cement requires a wait of 15 minutes before applying a
>> second coat. That translates to an 18 to 20 minute tire change. That's
>> the figure I claim is unacceptable for a brevet context.
>
> Clearly making tubulars a non-starter. They are no longer a relevant
> tire selection for the vast majority of purposes. Your explanation is
> clearer than the original context. But 1 minute is far too stringent to
> be realistic.
>
Let's be precise. It's the adhesion method provided by the modern rim
cement that's the non-starter. As mentioned in my original post, Jantex
tubular rim tape is still available. A complete tire change can be done
with the tape within my stated time criteria. So, if one desires to use
tubulars for a brevet, one should also use Jantex tape. That's the point
I made.
<snip>
> Indeed. Some of them were the victims of bad planning, inadequate
> preparation, poor sleep management, etc. Some of them just were not
> riding fast enough (when I see randonneurs riding 14 mph an hour into a
> brevet, there's a problem there).
I guess you would have problems trying PBP under the Audax formula, run
by the UAP. Their maximum speed is 24 km/hr (15 mph). They ride at that
speed, manage to get 3 good night's sleep and consume a traditional 2
hour French lunch, complete with a bottle of wine, each day.
Tortoises do complete PBP, as do hares. If you look up my record, you'll
count me among the tortoises.
<snip>
>
> 10:00 PM start for the 90H riders in 2003. What year did you ride?
>
I rode in 1979 and 1983. I also drove a support van for the Americans in
1987.
I believe they changed the starting times in 1991.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
<snip>
> On Sep 6, 5:46 am, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net> wrote:
>>
>> Let me present a reason which may be more fundamental to the brevet
>> context. The object is to finish a brevet; every brevet entrant should
>> be able to do that. Unless one is carrying a foldable spare, a tire cut
>> means abandoning the brevet. Tubulars replace the tire and tube in one
>> shot.
>>
>> The reason I'm considering going back to tubs is that I've experienced
>> 3 tire failures in the last 2 months. Two occurred while I was scouting
>> a ride and was far from transportation. That ride was yesterday and one
>> rider got a cut in a tire. He opted to take the train back. (I always
>> carry a foldable spare when riding clinchers.)
>
> Sheez. How big was this cut?
> Carry some pieces of a Tyvek envelope, and a boot made from an old tire
> if you're really worried. Replace tires before a big event if the
> sidewalls look damaged, since wholesale sidewall failure is a PITA on
> any type of tire.
>
It was a bout a 3/4 inch cut, when the rider decided to take the train
back. A dollar bill had been successfully used after the initial blowout.
The rider evidently felt that the repair was sufficiently successful to
ignore a bike shop that was along the route. I assume the cut expanded to
the 3/4 inches by the time I arrived at the lunch stop.
> Also, a folding clincher is no more burden than a spare sewup, but I
> don't want to make this a clincher vs tub flamewar. I'm more interested
> in advocating practical repairs.
>
I could not agree more regarding the "burden" of carrying a spare folding
clincher.
I'm a volunteer mechanic for about half a dozen 1000+ participant
centuries each year. I've got three scheduled for the remainder of this
month. I'd be willing to bet that not one rider will be carrying a
folding spare. Most of these elite riders cannot be burdened with
carrying a punctured spare tube that another rider replaced for them on
the road.
I've seen more cut tires than I think reasonable as a volunteer mechanic.
I've used everything from currency, tyvec (supplied free from post office
envelopes), cloth handlebar tape, friction tape, duct tape and Rema boot
patches to try to make repairs. Some repairs have been successful, others
not. All such repairs take more time than a quick 3 minute tire change.
My advice for anyone contemplating a prestige brevet on clinchers is to
carry a foldable spare as well as spare tubes and patch kit. My advice
for anyone contemplating a prestige brevet on tubulars is to carry an
adequate number of spares and to use Jantex tape.
Of course, let's hope they are also carrying a working pump that is
capable of reaching the pressure stamped on the sidewall.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
I should have added the Park boot to the materials I've used both
successfully and unsuccessfully.
My experience is that boots will prevent a tube from pushing through the
tire cut. Getting a boot to prevent the tire cut from opening further is
less certain.
S.B.
N8N
I'm just curious, never having been confronted with a tire cut - if
it's a small cut, would a glued patch like you'd use on an inner tube
help in preventing the cut from spreading? Obviously this would only
be a temporary repair but it just seems to me that it would be better
than a boot alone. The tube patches that I've (rarely) used seem to
be much less stretchy than an unpatched inner tube.
nate
Stephen Bauman
wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:51:48 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> Only if it can't be repaired. I've finished brevets with a boot made
>>> from a folded dollar bill and several non-brevet rides with Park
>>> boots. It'd be a pretty badly cut tire that couldn't be ridden home
>>> without one of those methods. I've only once carried a spare tire on
>>> a brevet (PBP, unnecessary given that French roads are much cleaner
>>> than American roads- I saw zero broken glass on roads in France) and
>>> had no use for it.
>>>
>>>
>>I share your assessment regarding the quality of roads used for PBP but
>>they are not completely void of broken glass or other hazards. I'd
>>assume that the current financial problems would teach one not to rely
>>on glass- free credit swaps and carry a spare tire for riding PBP.
>
> You glossed over the most important part of what Tim wrote above- that
> it's simple to deal with a tire cut on a clincher.
>
> I'll assume you are filing that info for future use and not ignoring it.
My experience has been that tire cuts are simple to deal with only when
they are discovered early. Repairs are less simple and certain, when the
first indication of a tire cut is a blowout.
I've seen 2 and 3 inch long cuts, that I defy anyone to make rideable
within a few minutes. If one's object is to finish a long brevet, carry a
foldable spare and forget about finding a boot from commonly available
materials.
Stephen Bauman
someone
> On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 08:25:25 +0000, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
> wrote:
>
>
>
Sew in the sticky cloth patch. Need a thimble, needle and thread.
Carpet thread, button thread on dental floss.
someone
> In article <bb6aa5dbtdkg57b1s821r46bhbi3jte...@4ax.com>,
I'd guess he'd seen the beginings of the split and packed the adhesive
for this job, in case it went.
someone
> Let's be precise. It's the adhesion method provided by the modern rim
> cement that's the non-starter.
Are all water based, no spirit solvent? Any which can be removed by
softening with spirit are being reactivated, only the surface needs
reactivating to enable cohesion after assembly of tyre to rim.
> As mentioned in my original post, Jantex
> tubular rim tape is still available.
Which is latex, is it not? I guess the tape is needed to prevent
separation from the rim upon tyre removal. If it is just latex then
using a regular spirit based contact adhesive (spirit based) can have
a new tyre on the rim within a couple of minutes, you will need to
carry a small pot and a stiff brush. A good job will take a little
longer. This may be preferable when tyre to rim match is poor for the
thicker applied glue will fill small vpoids.
Stephen Bauman
>
> I'm just curious, never having been confronted with a tire cut - if it's
> a small cut, would a glued patch like you'd use on an inner tube help in
> preventing the cut from spreading? Obviously this would only be a
> temporary repair but it just seems to me that it would be better than a
> boot alone. The tube patches that I've (rarely) used seem to be much
> less stretchy than an unpatched inner tube.
>
There are basically two objectives to repairing a tire cut. First, one
wants to prevent the tube from pushing through the cut and touching the
pavement. Second, one wants to prevent the tube pressure from further
increasing the size of the cut.
These two objectives are easier to achieve, if the tire is a large volume-
low pressure type than say one requiring 120 psi with a 22 mm profile.
An ordinary tube patch does not do a very good job despite being less
flexible than the tube. These patches will stretch and be pushed through
the cut by tube pressure. Material that does not stretch under pressure
is required. Some type of cloth, like dollar bills or special boot
patches are usually used. So is tyvec.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
>
> Sew in the sticky cloth patch. Need a thimble, needle and thread.
> Carpet thread, button thread on dental floss.
That endeavor is more appropriate for a long winter's night beside a warm
fireplace than on the side of a dark road, with the rain pouring down and
one already suffering from 60+ hours of sleep deprivation.
Stephen Bauman
Stephen Bauman
> On 8 Sep, 13:37, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net> wrote:
>
>> Let's be precise. It's the adhesion method provided by the modern rim
>> cement that's the non-starter.
>
> Are all water based, no spirit solvent? Any which can be removed by
> softening with spirit are being reactivated, only the surface needs
> reactivating to enable cohesion after assembly of tyre to rim.
>
Modern rim cements are not water based. The Fast Track solvent is sold
separately.
>> As mentioned in my original post, Jantex tubular rim tape is still
>> available.
>
> Which is latex, is it not? I guess the tape is needed to prevent
> separation from the rim upon tyre removal. If it is just latex then
> using a regular spirit based contact adhesive (spirit based) can have a
> new tyre on the rim within a couple of minutes, you will need to carry a
> small pot and a stiff brush. A good job will take a little longer.
> This may be preferable when tyre to rim match is poor for the thicker
> applied glue will fill small vpoids.
Jantex is not latex. It's a cloth tape that is impregnated with old
fashioned rim cement. It may have escaped the EU VOC regulations through
an oversight.
Stephen Bauman
someone
Definitely not for me. Do you stop to brew up now and again?
someone
So it's mastic or gutta like Tubasti. (Blue tack is similar)
N8N
right, I didn't mean in place of the boot, but more as a supplement to
it.
Another thought - metal foil duct tape?
nate
Stephen Bauman
>
> Here's the new tire scenario: new rim, new tape, new tire. Put tape on
> rim. Put tire on tape on rim (no prep to tire). Install wheel. Done.
>
> Here's the flat tire scenario: Remove wheel. Remove flat tire. Install
> new tire on existing tape (no prep to new tire). Install wheel. Done.
I'd assume that a fair amount of the tubular rim cement that was embedded
in the cloth tape had migrated to the tire much the same way straight
tubular cement does. This would make the adhesion of the replacement tire
problematic. Placing a new roll of tape on top of the existing one should
not take that much time.
Stephen Bauman
someone
wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:21:23 -0500, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net>
> wrote:
>
> >>> As mentioned in my original post, Jantex tubular rim tape is still
> >>> available.
>
> >> Which is latex, is it not? I guess the tape is needed to prevent
> >> separation from the rim upon tyre removal. If it is just latex then
> >> using a regular spirit based contact adhesive (spirit based) can have a
> >> new tyre on the rim within a couple of minutes, you will need to carry a
> >> small pot and a stiff brush. A good job will take a little longer.
> >> This may be preferable when tyre to rim match is poor for the thicker
> >> applied glue will fill small vpoids.
>
> >Jantex is not latex. It's a cloth tape that is impregnated with old
> >fashioned rim cement. It may have escaped the EU VOC regulations through
> >an oversight.
>
>
> Here's the new tire scenario: new rim, new tape, new tire. Put tape on
> rim. Put tire on tape on rim (no prep to tire). Install wheel. Done.
>
> Here's the flat tire scenario: Remove wheel. Remove flat tire. Install
> new tire on existing tape (no prep to new tire). Install wheel. Done.
The tub's base tape does not adhere so well when using tub tape
because there is not the depth of adhesive to grab into the voids in
the woven tape. spreading the adhesive directly onto the tyre's base
tape means the voids are filled and full adhesion can be attained.
someone
This has the advantage if you are using an undersize tyre as your
spare as the extra thickness of tape will make up for the lack of
cross section of the tyre. If you see any gaps between the rim's
edge and the tyre then I suggest that fitting an extra tape may
prevent loss of adhesion at the edges by effectively reducing the rim
bed radius.
someone
Wrap it around your frame pump for the retro look.
Tim McNamara
Still Just Me. <noEmai...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:01:52 -0700, "Tom Kunich"
> <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >"Still Just Me." <noEmai...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote in message
> >news:26vaa5hio9mredmmm...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:35:57 -0500, Stephen Bauman
> >> <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>If somebody is running with a one or two hour closing cushion,
> >>>then 20 minutes spent replacing a tubular is a significant chunk
> >>>of time.
> >>
> >> I'm missing something here... why does it take 20 minutes to
> >> change a tubular? Never heard of pre-gluing?
> >
> >People that haven't used tubulars themselves have all sorts of crazy
> >ideas about them. Unless you're riding turns at racing speeds you
> >don't even need a good glue joint. The heating from braking will
> >soften the old glue and by the end of a ride your tubular will be
> >glued perfectly well.
> >
> >Nevertheless I use tube tires since they are so much easier to
> >repair when necessary. And in the USA mending tubulars is almost a
> >full time occupation necessitated by broken glass all over the
> >street and no street cleaning for months on end.
> >
> >While in Europe I seldom saw any discarded trash. Unlike the USA
> >where it is the norm. Day before yesterday I rode past a discarded
> >refrigerator, stove top and several other items dumps on the
> >mountain road when it probably would have been easier to take them
> >to the local trash site.
>
> It would have cost money to dispose of the appliances, particularly
> the one containing refrigerant. So, instead of paying for disposing
> of their own waste, they dump it on the public.
>
> We see the same thing in many Corporations that feel it's OK to spew
> out any pollution they want - the public space is theirs to use as a
> dumping ground.
Indeed, Krugman just mentioned this in his analysis of how economists
didn't see the economic downturn coming:
"The birth of economics as a discipline is usually credited to Adam
Smith, who published "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. Over the next 160
years an extensive body of economic theory was developed, whose central
message was: Trust the market. Yes, economists admitted that there were
cases in which markets might fail, of which the most important was the
case of "externalities" -- costs that people impose on others without
paying the price, like traffic congestion or pollution."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/magazine/06Economic-t.html?_r=1
Tim McNamara
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> It is a reaction to severe laws governing these things. "What do you
> mean the dump will not take it? Take this!"
That doesn't wash as a defense against charges of drug smuggling and it
doesn't wash in this argument.
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
Properly repairing a cut casing is more than one wants to do on the side
of the road. I have repaired cut tires with contact cement and a swatch
of fabric, using them for hundreds of miles afterwards. It's time
consuming and is best done at the workbench- and is only worth bothering
with if the tire is nearly new. On the road I have used a Park boot,
Tyvek or a folded dollar bill on my tires and those of others. My main
strategy is prevention, watching out for and avoiding shards of glass as
much as possible. This is much harder to do at night or in the rain.
someone
> Modern rim cements are not water based. The Fast Track solvent is sold
> separately.
Whatever this solvent is, can be used to reactivate the adhesive, it
allows the long chain polymer to thread out and the massaging as a
wheel rolls along will encourage deep interlocking. Careful attention
must be paid to the quantity of solvent used, for if too little then
the initial grab will not only be poor but the cohesive bond will
never be strong. If too much then the whole of the adhesive may
become fluid and the tyre will creep around the rim. Do it right and
not only will the initial bond be as least as good as using fresh tape
on a clean rim and tyre but will improve during the ride and in the
days and weeks to follow (as the last of the solvent evaporates).
Parking up a bike in the sun is a useful way of removing the last of
the solvent and will encourage gutta to thin out when ridden, forming
a bulge at the rim and tyre interface. The thinner layer has less
problems with cohesive failure and is not so energy absorbing. Do not
park up at the top of a mountain and leave your bike in the sun if
freshly glued for the softened glue will creep because of the
excessive thickness. Better to ride in the sun before you get to and
climb the mountain.
Tim McNamara
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:33:56 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
> >> Please re-read the context of that quote. The one minute is the
> >> time interval from the application of rim cement to when the
> >> tubular can be mounted without fear of it rolling off. That
> >> corresponds to a 3 minute tire change.
> >>
> >> Today's rim cement requires a wait of 15 minutes before applying a
> >> second coat. That translates to an 18 to 20 minute tire change.
> >> That's the figure I claim is unacceptable for a brevet context.
> >
> > Clearly making tubulars a non-starter. They are no longer a
> > relevant tire selection for the vast majority of purposes. Your
> > explanation is clearer than the original context. But 1 minute is
> > far too stringent to be realistic.
> >
>
> Let's be precise. It's the adhesion method provided by the modern rim
> cement that's the non-starter.
I think both. With a couple of spare tubes and a patch kit- my setup
for brevets- a rider using clinchers can deal with a half dozen flats on
a brevet and if necessary buying another tube and/or patch kit shouldn't
bee too hard (but, jeez, what a crappy ride that'd be having to stop for
6+ flats. Maybe people in goathead country do this sort of thing
routinely and think nothing of it).
A rider using tubulars can only deal with as many flats as he has spare
tubs. Local frame builder Chris Kvale, a dedicated tubular user,
pointed out to me that he always carries two spares, because if you get
a flat 30 miles into a century then you're riding a 70 miler with no
spare.
> As mentioned in my original post, Jantex tubular rim tape is still
> available. A complete tire change can be done with the tape within my
> stated time criteria. So, if one desires to use tubulars for a
> brevet, one should also use Jantex tape. That's the point I made.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Indeed. Some of them were the victims of bad planning, inadequate
> > preparation, poor sleep management, etc. Some of them just were
> > not riding fast enough (when I see randonneurs riding 14 mph an
> > hour into a brevet, there's a problem there).
>
> I guess you would have problems trying PBP under the Audax formula,
> run by the UAP. Their maximum speed is 24 km/hr (15 mph). They ride
> at that speed, manage to get 3 good night's sleep and consume a
> traditional 2 hour French lunch, complete with a bottle of wine, each
> day.
I would not care for that approach (except for the part about lunch), it
is too rigid for my tastes. I prefer the "allure libre" approach even
though that has its drawbacks. But surely some people prefer the UAP
approach, since they have customers.
The Seattle rando club has run a 1200K that splits the difference- daily
start times, specific night stops, but riding at your own pace. I've
never tried a ride like that but it might be OK. I'm not sure why the
time limit is 93 hours for this; perhaps it is not an ACP-sanctioned
event.
http://seattlerando.org/C1200/
> Tortoises do complete PBP, as do hares. If you look up my record,
> you'll count me among the tortoises.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > 10:00 PM start for the 90H riders in 2003. What year did you ride?
> >
>
> I rode in 1979 and 1983. I also drove a support van for the Americans
> in 1987.
>
> I believe they changed the starting times in 1991.
The 84 hour group starts at 4:00AM, or did in 2003 anyway, and had the
highest percentage of finishers. Apparently this is a fairly consistent
phenomenon and was also the case in 1999 and 2007 per the RUSA
newsletter a while back. Those who don't like riding at night might do
best in that group as it'd be possible to complete the ride with very
little night riding.
Tim McNamara
someone
> In article <1qCdnaayZJinAzvXnZ2dnUVZ_vxi4...@speakeasy.net>,
If you ride in the rain regularly then you should use tyre skimmers.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>I'm just curious, never having been confronted with a tire cut - if
>it's a small cut, would a glued patch like you'd use on an inner tube
>help in preventing the cut from spreading? Obviously this would only
>be a temporary repair but it just seems to me that it would be better
>than a boot alone. The tube patches that I've (rarely) used seem to
>be much less stretchy than an unpatched inner tube.
The material used to patch the cut should not be stretchy.
I've patched a small hole in a casing with tyvek glued on with rim
cement and used the tire indefinitely.
Large holes should probably have the tire replaced when the ride is
over.
I don't know about brevets but unless they are run over broken glass I
find this fear of tire cuts overstated. I ride on some of the worst
roads around in terms of glass on the road (New York City environns)
and tire cuts are very rare.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>I've seen 2 and 3 inch long cuts, that I defy anyone to make rideable
>within a few minutes. If one's object is to finish a long brevet, carry a
>foldable spare and forget about finding a boot from commonly available
>materials.
What do you do when a bolt on your seatpost snaps. That's happened to
me almost as often as huge cuts in a tire, so I have to wonder how you
make it through brevets, which sound so rugged.
Do you have a bag with a small assortment of bolts?