mechanical doping & MRI

[Frank Krygowski]

http://www.cnet.com/news/mechanical-doping-cyclist-sentenced-to-6-year-ban-for-using-bike-with-hidden-motor/

I wondered about a magnetometer. They're going to use MRI instead.
Graphic output sounds nice.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

opioid outbreak at Olmstead Falls ...

do do wha do do wha do

do do

[jbeattie]

Hard to believe they use a conventional MRI which would rip the old Gruber Assist right out of the seat tube. If imaging were necessary, a plain-film x-ray would do the trick or millimeter wave scanning ala TSA. It's not like they have to take slices and find cancer.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Maybe ripping the motor out of the seat tube is a feature, not a bug!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

awwww c'mon guys dissseeesse ASO PR

http://propertysoup.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Plunger-7438451.jpg

[jbeattie]

Sort of OT, but I was talking to my son about this last night, and he is more outraged by mechanical doping than body doping, which I thought was odd. He thought the six year ban for Van den Driessche was too light. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessche-handed-six-year-ban-for-mechanical-doping/

He was also riffing on how a tiny motor is about the most obvious thing you can do to cheat -- the cartoon villain saying "I'll put a tiny motor in my bike and beat everyone!"

Sure, the mechanical doping thing is bad, but really, how many watts can one of those tiny motors deliver over the course of a stage. I would be more upset that a competitor had more red blood cells and more ability to exert and recover, particularly in a grand tour -- and body doping can kill a rider (clots and other problems), unlike a tiny motor which is just embarrassing.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Radey Shouman]

Perhaps there's someting subconscious that says he who risks death
deserves a bit of an advantage, but risking mere sanction and
embarrassment merits nothing. Not the attitude a sports regulator
should take, of course.

--

[Frank Krygowski]

Perhaps the outrage is because the fundamental principle of bicycling is
moving oneself by one's own power. And bike racing is fundamentally
about who can do that the best. Mechanical doping violates that
fundamental principle, and does it dishonestly.

A bit related: Electric assist bikes are sure to become much more popular,
especially among people my age or older. And there's nothing wrong with
that. But a tiny voice in my mind still says "Aw, that's cheating."
Illogical, I know, but that little voice doesn't listen to reason.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Cheating is cheating, regardless of how it is done.

But realistically, you do business with a guy and he cheats you....
are you going back six years later and do business's with him again?

I suggest that a more realistic ban is "life time".
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

MRI? I don't think so. You don't want anything that's even slightly
magnetic anywhere near an MRI machine:

"How dangerous are magnetic items near an MRI magnet?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg>

Methinks it would tear apart the bicycle (and the hiddent motor).

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

MRI here is placing metal in a microwave.

The overview suggests more rollerderby.

On the hole, a continuing indictment of OL Yurp 'sports fans' as ignorant hicks or supporting illusion as participant.

Available power seems to a not competitor, meaningless. I search for an example...howbout downhill before uphill nearing FL ?

[Radey Shouman]

The line is brighter with mechanical doping -- we expect athletes to
eat, take supplements, and take drugs in a way calculated to improve
performance, there are just some drugs that are against the rules, and
the list changes from time to time.

On the other hand, if you've got a wee motor in your race bike, you're
undoubtedly cheating.

> A bit related: Electric assist bikes are sure to become much more popular,
> especially among people my age or older. And there's nothing wrong with
> that. But a tiny voice in my mind still says "Aw, that's cheating."
> Illogical, I know, but that little voice doesn't listen to reason.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

--

[Lou Holtman]

Everyone should have a second chance. Cheat once you get get punished.
Cheat the second time you get banned for life.
6 years is ridiculous for the first offence. Di Luca admitted in his book
that all his victories were because of chemical doping and he didn't regret
it and is still a hero in Italy. How compares this to the 6 year ban of
that young Belgian girl?
--
Lou

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-27 18:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 8:53:58 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 7:39:28 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 4/27/2016 10:18 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 at 7:03:42 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.cnet.com/news/mechanical-doping-cyclist-sentenced-to-6-year-ban-for-using-bike-with-hidden-motor/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wondered about a magnetometer. They're going to use MRI instead.
>>>>>> Graphic output sounds nice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> Hard to believe they use a conventional MRI which would rip the old Gruber Assist right out of the seat tube. If imaging were necessary, a plain-film x-ray would do the trick or millimeter wave scanning ala TSA. It's not like they have to take slices and find cancer.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe ripping the motor out of the seat tube is a feature, not a bug!
>>>
>>> Sort of OT, but I was talking to my son about this last night, and he
>>> is more outraged by mechanical doping than body doping, which I
>>> thought was odd. He thought the six year ban for Van den Driessche
>>> was too
>>> light. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-den-driessche-handed-six-year-ban-for-mechanical-doping/
>>>
>>> He was also riffing on how a tiny motor is about the most obvious
>>> thing you can do to cheat -- the cartoon villain saying "I'll put a
>>> tiny motor in my bike and beat everyone!"
>>>
>>> Sure, the mechanical doping thing is bad, but really, how many watts
>>> can one of those tiny motors deliver over the course of a stage.

A lot. The battery on my MTB has 50-60 useful watt-hours and you could
easily fit twice as many cells into the upper section of a seat tube.
The motor goes into the lower third or so. Such a motor can deliver well
in excess of 100W and that is very substantial in a race:

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.html

Two ways to catch them are having a clandestine antenna and spectrum
analyzer hidden at some undisclosed location to listen for tell-tale
electromagnetic emissions, and/or a sensitive audio setup with
FFT-waterfall display that fishes out whirring noise. Thermal imaging
(FLIR) might also work because the lower part of the seat tube is bound
to be at an elevated temperature.


>>> ... I

>>> would be more upset that a competitor had more red blood cells and
>>> more ability to exert and recover, particularly in a grand tour -- and
>>> body doping can kill a rider (clots and other problems), unlike a tiny
>>> motor which is just embarrassing.
>>
>> Perhaps there's someting subconscious that says he who risks death
>> deserves a bit of an advantage, but risking mere sanction and
>> embarrassment merits nothing. Not the attitude a sports regulator
>> should take, of course.
>>
>> --
>
> Perhaps the outrage is because the fundamental principle of bicycling is
> moving oneself by one's own power. And bike racing is fundamentally
> about who can do that the best. Mechanical doping violates that
> fundamental principle, and does it dishonestly.
>

It sure is dishonest. As is medical doping.

> A bit related: Electric assist bikes are sure to become much more popular,
> especially among people my age or older. And there's nothing wrong with
> that. But a tiny voice in my mind still says "Aw, that's cheating."
> Illogical, I know, but that little voice doesn't listen to reason.
>

IMHO electric-assist would be ok for regular riding if the batteries are
never charged from an external source, only from reverse generation down
a hill or such. And would need to be empty before a race. Since that's
not possible with Li-Ion the whole concept should remain banned for races.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Joerg, you are talking WATT/HOURS and not watts in those batteries. If you expended ALL of that power in one second you would add 17% or so to that power that a rider of Tour caliber could generate. Over distance and time for a cobblestone event you are adding essentially nothing. And since she pulled OUT of the race before it finished she in fact gained nothing. If she expended this power pulling a team-mate that finished in the top ten you could pull the finish of that team mate.

But the punishment is FAR FAR too great since it only needs to be made plain that any old infrared camera sight could pick a motor out of the entire peleton.

And again, I heard that there were six motored mounts detected in the Paris Roubaix which only means that they had to carry a motor and dead batteries a long way with the threat of an explosion from the Lithium Ion batteries.

This was possibly an experiment but I'm sure that it demonstrated that someone is an idiot.

[avag...@gmail.com]

1. No one likes Belgians

2. the girl is a young woman without connections into the power elite.

3. no one likes Belgians

4. Belgians are a PITA

5. The Elite gave her 10000 Franks to quit n keep her mouth shut

6. She was gonna quit anyway with a deviated septum

7. Belgians are a PITA.

[avag...@gmail.com]

'I heard that there were six motored mounts' ohh bullshit...

I heard flying cows have gone to Mars ......

an English rag said cows were seen on Mars by several English Astronomers.

oh good.......

[avag...@gmail.com]

what/why is not possible with Li-ion ?

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-28 14:15, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 2:02:54 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-04-27 18:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 8:53:58 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman
>>> wrote:
>>>> jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> writes:

[...]

Would you please run that math in some more detail? A 60Wh battery can
theoretically generate 60W for a whole hour. Or more realistically 10W
for 5-6h which is what I use it for (lighting, not propulsion).
Depleting a 60Wh battery in one second would result in over 200kW. As in
Kilowatts. That is right up there in the power range of a decent Porsche
and would shred the chain, freehub and rear spokes.


> ... Over

> distance and time for a cobblestone event you are adding essentially
> nothing. And since she pulled OUT of the race before it finished she
> in fact gained nothing. If she expended this power pulling a
> team-mate that finished in the top ten you could pull the finish of
> that team mate.
>
> But the punishment is FAR FAR too great since it only needs to be
> made plain that any old infrared camera sight could pick a motor out
> of the entire peleton.
>

The 20k CHF are a bit much, yes. The ban, no. It is needed to show other
riders that thou shalt not do this.

> And again, I heard that there were six motored mounts detected in the
> Paris Roubaix which only means that they had to carry a motor and
> dead batteries a long way with the threat of an explosion from the
> Lithium Ion batteries.
>
> This was possibly an experiment but I'm sure that it demonstrated
> that someone is an idiot.
>

Assuming they aren't idiots they probably tried that out on training
rides and found out that it shaved off a percent or two of the total
time. Such a small battery isn't going to make a huge difference but if
you are just a tad weaker than the top rider it could help. Provided
it's not a really long ride.

[John B.]

Why?

If one makes a law... why a slap on the wrist punishment. The argument
that when one deliberately flaunts a law, with full knowledge of the
fact that one is doing wrong, deserves a second chance is simply
ludicrous.

Imagine. The policeman says, "Well, Lady, you just ran over that
bicyclist. You must have know that was wrong". "Well, yes, but
Officer, he was hogging the lane and I was late for my nail session. I
had to do it." "Well, don't do it any more."

The Bureau of Justice says that "About two-thirds (68 percent) of
405,000 prisoners released in 30 states in 2005 were arrested for a
new crime within three years of release from prison and three-quarters
(77 percent) were arrested within five years.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Lou Holtman]

Gee, I am not talking about murderers. We are talking about doping
offenders. First offence, two years ban, second offence ban for life. 6
years for a first offence of a young girl is out of proportion just because
she was the first one caught with mechanical doping.

--
Lou

[Joerg]

On 2016-04-28 14:47, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 5:02:54 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-04-27 18:49, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>> A bit related: Electric assist bikes are sure to become much more popular,
>>> especially among people my age or older. And there's nothing wrong with
>>> that. But a tiny voice in my mind still says "Aw, that's cheating."
>>> Illogical, I know, but that little voice doesn't listen to reason.
>>>
>>
>> IMHO electric-assist would be ok for regular riding if the batteries are
>> never charged from an external source, only from reverse generation down
>> a hill or such. And would need to be empty before a race. Since that's
>> not possible with Li-Ion the whole concept should remain banned for races.
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>
> what/why is not possible with Li-ion ?
>

You cannot discharge a Li-Ion battery too low. Else there will be some
uncontrolled growths inside which can then upon re-charge short the
battery ... *KABLOUIE* ... usually followed by a hard or impossible to
extinguish fire. I know an engineer who had that happen. All they could
do is bite their nails and wait until the blaze on the lab bench died
out. Which took many minutes during which the battery burned itself
through the 1" wood.

Consumer grade Li-Ion batteries mostly have protection against this.
Stops the discharge at a safe voltage level. If the user is negligent,
fails to re-charge in due course and the voltage falls farther the
electronic protection will then foil any future charging attempt,
essentially rendering the battery useless.

[jbeattie]

We should legalize mechanical doping because it does not produce negative health consequences (like chemical doping), and it would drive the development of tiny motors for the rest of us. I need a tiny motor.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm pretty sure I need a bigger one than you do! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 20:48:05 +0200, Lou Holtman

So we make a law and when someone transgresses it, why do we give them
another chance. Just a bunch of nice guys, I guess.

Ever give any though to what would happen if there was no freebie? You
cheat, you are OUT.

My guess is that there would be very little cheating :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Speaking about winning Grand Tours Lance stated that it wasn't about the bike. I guess, in retrospect, he was saying it's about the dope you use and whether you can use it undetected. Cheating seems to be VERY acceptable in many things today.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

And we would be without the excluded rider, who may be a hoot to watch -- even when not cheating. People are capital, and like business capital -- say a machine -- you don't trash it when it malfunctions once. Chronic malfunctioning, yes. And thus, we have proportional penalties. Speeding is appropriately not a capital offense.

Excessive penalties have serious negative social consequences -- arguably as serious as inadequate penalties. I think a six year suspension for a U-23 champ who dropped out of a race is excessive. I'd kick her out for a season and then put her on parole -- piss checks, x-rays, etc., etc. The bottom line is that getting caught screws her in terms of sponsorship, etc. But, if someone is willing to back her, she could become a clean super-star -- well as clean as you can be racing CX.


-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/how-deep-average-vagina-and-does-it-elongate-when-somethings-it

http://goo.gl/7gJpFk

itsa PR stunt. She quit. There were no 6 motors at the Yahoo race...

[John B.]

Perhaps I am "dope tolerant", to invent a term, but the dope isn't
everything. You can ingest all the speed, or inject all the growth
hormone that you want but if you don't work your ass off you will
never be a champions anything.

Not to defend Lance but he had been working out on a daily basis
(albeit as a swimmer) before he was in his teens. Eddie Merckx used to
do three 200 Km rides a week., or nearly 20,000 miles a year (with a
week off for holidays :-). The body builders with their amazing
muscles certainly stick needles in their butt, but they also work out
twice daily.

My guess is that the guys that win with dope will win without dope.
Providing, of course, that all the contestants were dope free.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 30 Apr 2016 16:15:57 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie

Yes, I believe that you are correct. Most sports have been, or perhaps
always were. commercialized and the "hero" is worth a lot of money. A
winner of the original Greek Games, at Delphi was it? Was set for
life.... and it might be noted that drug use dates to the same time
:-)

>Excessive penalties have serious negative social consequences -- arguably as serious as inadequate penalties.

I believe that as an all encompassing statement that is wrong.
Singapore, for example, has a law that possession of more then
specific quantities of "recreational chemicals" is punished by
hanging. Singapore has the lowest, or second lowest, drug usage in the
world.

No one spits on Singapore streets either as the penalty is a $1,000
fine.

Draconian rules do work.

>I think a six year suspension for a U-23 champ who dropped out of a race is excessive. I'd kick her out for a season and then put her on parole -- piss checks, x-rays, etc., etc. The bottom line is that getting caught screws her in terms of sponsorship, etc. But, if someone is willing to back her, she could become a clean super-star -- well as clean as you can be racing CX.
>
>
>-- Jay Beattie.

--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Singapore has the lowest reported drug use age in Europe

[jbeattie]

I shouldn't have turned this into a broader discussion of crime and punishment. I agree with some Draconian laws -- others are idiotic. In Singapore, for example, it is a crime to walk around your own home naked.

Let's say we do the whole law and order thing ala Singapore -- that means we hang Miles Davis, Chet Baker, Connan Doyle, Edgar Allen Poe, Edison, Crick, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, etc., etc. That's a huge loss to society, especially if you like jazz trumpet players -- or light bulbs. Smart people shouldn't get a free pass, but we shouldn't waste them. I'm all for getting Draconian on the street thugs.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

NOTHING LIKE ADVICE FROM A LAWYER...


https://goo.gl/IFVF2A

[Frank Krygowski]

It's too late to hang most of those guys.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sun, 1 May 2016 13:43:38 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

Actually that is part of the anti pornographic legislation and is
concerned with exhibiting porn. It is not against the law to walk
around in your house naked, it is against the law to walk around naked
exhibiting oneself. i.e., pull the shades down.

>Let's say we do the whole law and order thing ala Singapore -- that means we hang Miles Davis, Chet Baker, Connan Doyle, Edgar Allen Poe, Edison, Crick, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, etc., etc. That's a huge loss to society, especially if you like jazz trumpet players -- or light bulbs. Smart people shouldn't get a free pass, but we shouldn't waste them. I'm all for getting Draconian on the street thugs.

Nice examples. But (for example) Edger Allen Poe or Connan Doyle,
assuming that you meant "Sir Arthur Ignatius Conan Doyle", wouldn't
have been hung as narcotics were legal in Singapore during their
lifetimes :-)

But I think that you miss the point here. Narcotics use in Singapore
is extremely low. According to the 2008 World Drug Report by the
United Nations office on drugs and crime 8.2% of the UK population are
cannabis abusers; in Singapore it is 0.005%. For ecstasy, the figures
are 1.8% for the UK and 0.003% for Singapore; and for opiates, such as
heroin, opium and morphine, 0.9% for the UK and 0.005% for Singapore.

Care to discuss overall crime figures in the U.S.that are in some way
drug related, either as supplier or user? From what I see "In 2002, in
the U.S. about a quarter of convicted property and drug offenders in
local jails had committed their crimes to get money for drugs".
--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

well. We're impressed.

[Joy Beeson]

followup set to rec.bicycles.misc, where this post is on topic.

On Mon, 02 May 2016 08:48:41 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Narcotics use in Singapore
> is extremely low. According to the 2008 World Drug Report by the
> United Nations office on drugs and crime 8.2% of the UK population are
> cannabis abusers; in Singapore it is 0.005%. For ecstasy, the figures
> are 1.8% for the UK and 0.003% for Singapore; and for opiates, such as
> heroin, opium and morphine, 0.9% for the UK and 0.005% for Singapore.

What percentage of Singapore females spend one day a month in bed
because their doctors are afraid to prescribe dilute tincture of
opium?

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

(NB: I did not say "deodorized", I said "dilute".)

[avag...@gmail.com]

The atmosphere from Phukit skews off a death sentence for jaywalking.

Cloaking all sight of caws n effect.

Wealthy Asians now flock in Vancouver rolling in that Canadian gutter, absolute proof of mental confusion.

BTW, Singaporians are bathed in a mix of gold dust, oxycodine, and Lysol.

[jbeattie]

No doubt about it -- Singapore has a low rate of drug use, although that leaves open the question of correlation between drug use and anti-drug laws. Again, having never lived in Singapore, I am not qualified to discuss the merits of its criminal laws or criminal justice system. I do know that I couldn't handle the population density and being trapped on an island, but that is a whole other issue.

-- Jay Beattie.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 8:40:39 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> Imagine. The policeman says, "Well, Lady, you just ran over that
> bicyclist. You must have know that was wrong". "Well, yes, but
> Officer, he was hogging the lane and I was late for my nail session. I
> had to do it." "Well, don't do it any more."
>

No need to imagine. Geez. What you described is EXACTLY the way it happens in the USA. That is if the policeman even thinks its worth his time to leave the donut shop to catch the criminal.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, April 30, 2016 at 8:55:05 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> So we make a law and when someone transgresses it, why do we give them
> another chance. Just a bunch of nice guys, I guess.
>

In the USA we have this odd concept of "Let the punishment fit the crime." Murder someone and you get executed or life in prison. Maybe. Pick pocket a wallet in the subway and you get 1 year. Maybe. Now of course if you are black and jaywalk, then you are given 6 life sentences without parole and beaten and whipped every day of your sentence. But we have to use different rules for those criminals.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, April 27, 2016 at 8:49:55 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> A bit related: Electric assist bikes are sure to become much more popular,
> especially among people my age or older. And there's nothing wrong with
> that. But a tiny voice in my mind still says "Aw, that's cheating."

Agree. It does seem like cheating. Even though there is no one you are cheating against and no laws against it. Maybe solve it by creating a new name. Just call them "bikers" or "riders" instead of bicyclists. Motorcyclists call themselves "bikers" and say they are going riding. Wonder how that Harley Davidson riding Scott Walker up in Wisconsin would like being compared to an 80 year old electric bike rider?

[avag...@gmail.com]

HALF believe Singapore is drug free

HALF believe bikers risk career pursuits for a thimble of electric boost

tragic.

[John B.]

On Mon, 2 May 2016 07:18:22 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

Of course you could handle the population density and being trapped on
an island. If you were born there :-)

They also have a 2 year National Service - usually military - training
for all males. Of possible interest to enthusiastic and healthy
cyclists, if the individual can pass their "National Physical Fitness
Award at the silver or gold standard they get a two month reduction in
N.S.

--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Oh, I thought had read about people who had murdered people and when
they finally did get executed ( in Texas ) a bunch of other people
gathered outside the prison holding candles as some sort of protest at
such cruel and unusual punishment.

But more pointedly, your system doesn't seem to be working as from
what I read the U.S. has more people in prison then any other country
in the world and I also read that the majority of the people in prison
go right back to criminal activity when they are released from prison.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Yup, those stupid Singapore Police even walk "beats", i.e., stroll
around a neighborhood to "show the flag" that law enforcement
personnel are actually there and watching.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/2/2016 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 2 May 2016 07:18:22 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
>>

>> No doubt about it -- Singapore has a low rate of drug use...

>
> They also have a 2 year National Service - usually military - training
> for all males.

An idea we should emulate, I think.

Our public TV station did a rerun of the Ken Burns series, "The National
Parks - America's Best Idea." One episode discussed the Civilian
Conservation Corps during the depression. I know that some people still
excoriate that program, but it got a lot of good done, both for the
country and for the participants.

Teaching at the university, I saw countless 18-year-olds who had no idea
what they wanted to do in life, and who saw no reason to really dig into
their studies. OTOH, the military and ex-military guys and girls I got
were like a different species. Great workers, very motivated, and
generally very realistic about their intended path in life.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/2/2016 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:

That's supposedly one of the selling points for bicycle patrolmen, i.e.
cops on bikes.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Mon, 2 May 2016 23:17:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 5/2/2016 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 May 2016 07:18:22 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> No doubt about it -- Singapore has a low rate of drug use...
>>
>> They also have a 2 year National Service - usually military - training
>> for all males.
>
>An idea we should emulate, I think.
>
>Our public TV station did a rerun of the Ken Burns series, "The National
>Parks - America's Best Idea." One episode discussed the Civilian
>Conservation Corps during the depression. I know that some people still
>excoriate that program, but it got a lot of good done, both for the
>country and for the participants.
>

Both the CCC and the WPA worked. In fact, due to financial
consideration I believe, they were limited in the numbers that they
could employ, or they could have done more.

As a high school kid I worked a summer for the Vermont Forest Service
and a surprising number of the State or National forests showed
evidence of work by the CCC.

I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination a socialist but the Marx's
slogan, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his
needs" is not an outlandish statement.

>Teaching at the university, I saw countless 18-year-olds who had no idea
>what they wanted to do in life, and who saw no reason to really dig into
>their studies. OTOH, the military and ex-military guys and girls I got
>were like a different species. Great workers, very motivated, and
>generally very realistic about their intended path in life.

Way back when... I was a high school student, Dartmouth Collage put on
a dog and pony show at the high school. One thing the speaker
emphasized was that their findings were that rushing from high school
into collage was probably the wrong thing to do. Their experience with
the G.I. Bill students was that a little maturity resulted in much
better grades.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I grew up in a little town in New Hampshire and the cops there walked
a beat at night. I don't remember any crimes that they prevented but I
do remember hearing about how Mr. So-and-So, at the drugstore, had
gotten a call that he forgot to lock the front door.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Teaching at the university, I saw countless 18-year-olds who had no idea
what they wanted to do in life, and who saw no reason to really dig into
their studies. OTOH, the military and ex-military guys and girls I got
were like a different species. Great workers, very motivated, and
generally very realistic about their intended path in life.

...........

name a few.... contributors to advancing civilization .........beyond controlling civilization.

what is 'very realistic about their intended path in life' ?

I dunno Frank sounds kinda locked in.....

In Singapore where death is ruled into jaywalking...NS regulates their intended path in life and of obvious benefit to the ruling class of Commie thugs....they know who we are .....No. 12857B

like Shannon Touring eg

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2016 at 10:03:42 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> http://www.cnet.com/news/mechanical-doping-cyclist-sentenced-to-6-year-ban-for-using-bike-with-hidden-motor/
>
> I wondered about a magnetometer. They're going to use MRI instead.
> Graphic output sounds nice.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

bah

https://www.google.com/#q=drug+scene+at+Singapore+resorts

https://www.google.com/#q=prostitution++at+Singapore+resorts

[jbeattie]

Boy, technical topics must have dried up entirely. WPA and the CCC? Anyway, those two programs still have considerable currency for me since a couple of my favorite rides involve WPA and PWA projects: Timberline Lodge http://www.historic-hotels-lodges.com/timberline-lodge.htm

And Bonneville Dam: http://columbiariverimages.com/Regions/Places/bonneville_dam.html

Just riding home from work through the West Hills can take me through multiple WPA projects from the Cornell Tunnels to Council Crest to Washington Park. https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/nw-cornell-road-tunnels-portland/ Waste or not, the programs produced some wonderful structures with artistic or architectural importance. Our state capital was a WPA project. I guess we were a slacker state that needed a lot of works projects.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/3/2016 9:00 AM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>
> Teaching at the university, I saw countless 18-year-olds who had no idea
> what they wanted to do in life, and who saw no reason to really dig into
> their studies. OTOH, the military and ex-military guys and girls I got
> were like a different species. Great workers, very motivated, and
> generally very realistic about their intended path in life.
> ...........
>
> name a few.... contributors to advancing civilization .........beyond controlling civilization.
>
> what is 'very realistic about their intended path in life' ?

One example: I never had a military guy or girl who dropped out to make
it big with their garage band.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/3/2016 7:50 AM, John B. wrote:

Our little suburban village has a police force known for its diligence,
although we've only sporadically had any on bikes.* They do seem to
cruise continuously in cop cars, though.

One night I was grading exams later than usual into the night, something
like 1:30 AM. There came a knock at the door, startling the heck out of
me. Two village cops were there, asking if everything was OK. I
assured them it was, and they explained "Normally your living room
lights are out by now. We just thought we'd better check."

(* Sadly, I once had a young bike cop ask me "So which side of the road
are bikes supposed to ride on? Someone asked me, but I didn't know the
answer.")

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

Wwuhwuhwuh WE ? Beattie is a California Beach Boy, no ? Oregonians are dead ass yokels.

yeah whattabout muh sneaker post....? revolutionary....esp for dead ass foot fungused Oregonian yokels..


here's an intacto beauty. God you would not believe the clean rain soaked air coming down off the Rockies....eyeyyhahhahhahha

https://goo.gl/DFw8hj

[avag...@gmail.com]

One example: I never had a military guy or girl who dropped out to make
it big with their garage band.

that, Ohioan, is dropping IN ..............................

Ohio Ohio...catch Boner with the Mustafa ?

[Radey Shouman]

The practice has been revived in recent years. I see cops walking the
beat in Lowell, MA, although mostly downtown. Cops on bikes too. I
would like them more if they served as an example of following the
traffic code, but they don't -- frequently ride the wrong way, have no
lights though they ride at night ...

The local ambulance services have also put EMTs on bicycles, which makes
pretty good sense for large outdoor crowd scenes.

--

[John B.]

Every time I hear about police diligence I remember a story that a
bloke I knew in the A.F. used to tell about police efficiency.

He had been stationed in Spain and married a girl there. The A.F., as
they often do, had an "Operation" and people went on 12/12 hour shifts
and the guy didn't make it home for a day and a night. The second
morning there is a knock on the door and when his wife answers there
is a Guardia who says, "Oh, we noticed that your husband didn't come
home last night,. There isn't any problem is there?"
--

Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

Karthaus to Keating ....

Charles K ran ads for his Ponzi scheme in the NYT...

More Raygun ...

I asked muh Dad Patrick B if he knew of this...he went into his Hitler routine.

[avag...@gmail.com]

an eye for an eye
a tooth for a tooth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxecATqC_IQ