Bicycle Subjects

[Tom Kunich]

Well I suppose it should come as no surprise that the group has now shrunk to only a couple of people that are even interested in bicycles or any tech projects.

I have no idea of where anyone would get the idea that a self adjusting brake such as hydraulic disks would not of necessity drag. Probably too technical a subject for them. Saying that pro teams use them is about the dumbest excuse yet since they are very expensive and manufacturers WANT to make the profits off of them. You have to make a MUCH stronger fork, add all of the parts and the increased costs of hydraulic levers and then pretend that it isn't in fact FAR heavier than rim brakes.

My guess is that disk brakes will become standard on top end MTB's and will be a fad item on road bikes that will soon disappear.

Jay at least is willing to argue that tubulars soften the glue on long downhills which in fact they do on aluminum wheels, but who uses aluminum wheels anymore? And carbon wheels have terrible thermal conduction and do not soften the new improved tubular glue.

People here argued that carbon fiber would replace aluminum. And yet you can see it returning. Without a doubt it doesn't have the flamboyantly of a carbon bike, but then the prices are shockingly lower for a top grade aluminum bike, I will be interested in seeing how light I can make my Douglas Vector without ANY expensive equipment on it,.

[jbeattie]

On the technical subject, a self-adjusting disc brake does not by "necessity" drag. If the pistons are not gunky and the seals not defective, the pistons will always retract when the seals return to their neutral position. Like I said, I have -- correction, including my wife's e-bike -- five hydro-disc brake bikes, and the discs do not consistently drag on any of them. I will get periodic dragging due to gunk which usually resolves on its own, but if not, I extend the pistons and clean them.

I had one leaky caliper right out of the box that I unfortunately got from some discount interweb seller instead of my usual Western Bikeworks (shameless plug for PDX business). As it turns out, there was a production run of Shimano calipers that were bad early on. I replaced the internal seal between the two chambers/sides, but the pistons were still sticky (even after repeated cleaning), so as a frolic, I put in new seals and pistons that work great. It is an amazingly simple system.

I have not had to mill my caliper bolt seats (flush mount or tab mount) to get the calipers to align, but that has been an issue on some poorly prepped frames.



-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

Jay, self adjusting calipers do not retract very much. Just like every other hydraulic brake on the market, they push the pads all the way to the limits and the reservoir fills in behind them so that they are allowed to only retract a small distance before the hydraulic fluid is blocked by the release of the lever. The more rapidly you release the lever, the less motion you are likely to get before the hydraulic line is "blocked" in the lever and all motion stops. The pros have been complaining about this because they dive deep into a corner and release the lever rapidly. Then the next application of the brake the pad has to move a shorter distance. Finally they do touch. Sure there is no pressure behind them and so the brake probably doesn't even make any audible sound, but they do absorb a tiny bit of energy and among other reasons that is why TT bikes use rim brakes. For you and me and Lou, it makes not the slightest difference - the heavier fork with lots less shock absorption is probably worse for a sports rider. But for people that are all out, any loss at all is a loss. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWzSoC5bH5g

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 1:39:26 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> People here argued that carbon fiber would replace aluminum. And yet you can see it returning. Without a doubt it doesn't have the flamboyantly of a carbon bike, but then the prices are shockingly lower for a top grade aluminum bike,

Top grade aluminum bike, Tommy boy writes.

Most people, except Tommy boy of course, would interpret "Top grade" as the highest end, top level, bestest bike a bike company makes. Or at least up near the top for bikes made by a company. Back in the olden days, GM had Cadillac as their luxury brand. All Cadillacs, whether they were the bestest Sedan deVille or Coupe deVille or whatever were 'Top grade" because they were Cadillacs. Better than all the other GM cars because they were Cadillacs. So even though there was a pecking order in the Cadillac hierarchy, they were still all considered Top grade.

Tommy boy, please tell us the name and model of the aluminum bike that is "Top grade". You cannot. No bicycle company makes Top grade aluminum bikes anymore. I doubt anyone even sells any aluminum bike with Dura Ace or Record/Super Record or Red groupsets.

Cannondale. You may or may not remember that Cannondale started the aluminum bike craze back in the 70s or 80s. Along with Klein too but they died out. Alan and Vitus also made aluminum frames with aluminum lugs in the 70s but that never caught on. Cannondale introduced the still current way of using aluminum to make bike frames. TIG welded oversized, shaped aluminum tubes. I have two aluminum Cannondale frames. They are great bikes. Aluminum is a great material to make bike frames from. Cheap and easy to work with. And unless you go stupid thin on the tubes, more than strong enough for all bicycling. Yes I know aluminum has some kind of fatigue lifespan or something. So what. You will have to ride a hundred thousand miles to reach it. Its usable lifespan is more than adequate. Aluminum is great for bicycle frames.

But if you look at the Cannondale catalog, webpage, you will not see any Top grade aluminum bikes from Cannondale. And remember, Cannondale was infamous for being the aluminum bike maker. They started and still make great aluminum frames. Cannondale is synonymous with aluminum to anyone with any bicycling history. The Toppest grade aluminum bike from Cannondale is a $3200 CAAD13 with Shimano Ultegra. Ultegra is a great bike groupset. But Dura Ace is Shimano's Top grade. Not Ultegra.

CAAD13 is the highest aluminum bike Cannondale makes. CAAD13 is probably a great aluminum frame. I have a DAAD7 and CAAD9. Great frames. But does it compare in Top grade ness to Cannondale's Top grade carbon System Six, Super Six, Synapse frames? Probably not. Otherwise they would offer it higher up in their chain than with Ultegra.

https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/bikes/road

Once again Tommy you show your lack of intelligence and ability to think and reason.

[Tom Kunich]

Once again you could have actually looked it up but with your massive intellect, you would never have to actually know what you're talking about; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MlgTU7_Gvc or perhaps the loses from lawsuits pressing insurance companies to pressure bike companies to put safety a little higher than bottom of the list might actually be having some effect. https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-alr/%C3%A9monda-alr-frameset/p/23613/?colorCode=red_orangelight

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 12:41:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d2Vf9b-2Ls

[jbeattie]

Did you watch the video? The guy is a weight weenie who doesn't ride in the rain and always on aluminum rims. He is physically light, proud of not riding in bad weather or in mud, gravel, etc., and "likes to turn right" doing laps in a downtown park and doesn't need his brakes. It's weird.

And what does any of this have to do with disc drag? I don't think you understand the basic system. Absent a problem with the slave cylinder, when you release the lever, the brake retracts, the seals on the slave piston rolls back, and assuming you don't have sticking pistons, the pads withdraw. If you have dragging discs, you're a bad mechanic. I have (after recounting, and including my wife's e-bike) five hydro-disc bikes, and no drag on any of them.


-- Jay Beattie

[jbeattie]

I meant "absent a problem with the master cylinder."

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road-bikes/performance-road-bikes/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-alr/%C3%A9monda-alr-5/p/24166/?colorCode=purpledark

Gosh you are dumb Tommy. The Trek aluminum frame you referenced is the Emonda ALR. Costs $1130. The highest end Emonda ALR Trek sells is the one in the link above. $2150 with Shimano 105 groupset. I am sure its a fine bike. And Shimano 105 is a fine groupset. I have it on several bikes. But it ain't Top group as you claim. Its a good bike. Yes. Aluminum frames are good. Most, all, Shimano groups are good. But there is the best, or Top group, as you say, and aluminum doesn't fit into that category at all anymore. A long time ago Cannondale had its aluminum bikes in the Tour de France. At the time they were considered Top group. But now the teams Cannondale sponsors ride Cannondale's carbon frames. Top group today is not aluminum.

[jbeattie]

Tom bought some >15 year old off-brand aluminum frame and now feels obligated to inform us of why it was the best thing ever made. He's practicing his Craigslist sales schtick.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

'You simply don't understand the problem and you keep attempting to argue about the basic engineering. IF you are riding in the rain and are careful there may be a small advantage to them but NOT if you're riding fast, Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But

[Tom Kunich]

Whereas you're giving us your bullshit "If you don't pay more for your bike that you would for a new car you don't know what you're talking about."

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWzSoC5bH5g

[jbeattie]

Why do you keep linking that Durianrider video? The guy is an internet gadfly, and who cares what he thinks. Apparently discs are a monumental problem for you, and accordingly, you should not own them. They suit the type of riding I do -- i.e. year round in wet weather, including today -- and don't present mechanical issues for me like they do for you. All of your imagined disc problems have not materialized for me in any meaningful way (I fix dragging discs). But people can ride whatever brakes they want. I don't care.

I also don't care what material your frames are made of, but it is odd that whatever >15 year old POS off-brand frame you buy is the absolute best thing ever. And I'm sure I spend less on bikes than you. I'm not a compulsive bicycle flipper.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...

Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
it?

> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But

That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
measurement, etc?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

TOUR magazine did extensive tests on the first generation Shimano disk brakes for road bikes and the conclusion was: 'don't use them on loaded tours and/or heavy riders with long descents in the 10% category'. Warped disks and fading. Since then Shimano improved their design with cooling fins on their disks and brake pads. Later tests show improvement but I think TOUR magazine are still not enthusiastic using disks in that application.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> it?
>
> > ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
>

> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> measurement,

They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.

For the life of me I simply cannot tell why you feel the need to prove to everyone that as an engineer you are totally incompetent. You have been doing this repeatedly and I have simply figured it was you attempting to make me write another thesis. But it has become so plain that a child could tell that you know NOTHING about engineering.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, I am not saying this merely as some sort of baseless insult. I think that it is time for you to face the fact that if you ever had any engineering knowledge that time has long ago passed. You sound like Russell who can't do simple math telling us that he is an accountant.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

But Tommy boy, I have shown you lots and lots of simple math that plainly and clearly show the stock market went up more under Obama than under Trump. Yet you, no high school diploma, cannot understand that math. I encourage you to show us the stock market numbers on Obama's two inaugurations and on Trump's inauguration and the numbers on their leaving office. Then we can all do the simple math. Please present the FACTS Tommy. FACTS. FACTS.

When you present these stock numbers, please present broad based numbers representing the whole stock market. Such as the Vanguard Total stock market, the S&P 500. Dow Jones, Russell 2000, Nasdaq, QQQ. Something that is a lot of companies. Not one or two companies that went up or down. Broad based, diverse.

Me and everyone else are waiting for your factual numbers Tommy boy.

[jbeattie]

What size rotors?

-- Jay Beattie

[Lou Holtman]

160 mm if IRC.

Lou

[Roger Merriman]

I personally not had a problem, and I’ve taken the commute bike down a few
long ish hills 3 to 4 miles at 10% or thereabouts.

One that comes to mind is after staying with my folks (so full panniers and
so on) I rode to the summit finish of the Tour of Britain, watched the
race, had coffee etc. then rode to train station which meant plummeting
down with the rest of the traffic, ie lots of bikes and cars so not a clear
run, even with quite old hydraulic disks on the MTB/commute bike the rotors
160mm didn’t feel like they had warmed up at all.

But I’m a old MTBer myself and used to hills and disksbrakes ie I don’t
drag the brakes, which often seems to be the root cause of diskbrakes ate
my homework type stories/articles.

My gravel bike has 160mm finned stuff and is very impressive and I’ll work
that bike far harder than a pure road bike.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v-2Vf9b-2Ls

>> Did you watch the video? The guy is a weight weenie who doesn't ride in
>> the rain and always on aluminum rims. He is physically light, proud of
>> not riding in bad weather or in mud, gravel, etc., and "likes to turn
>> right" doing laps in a downtown park and doesn't need his brakes. It's weird.
>>
>> And what does any of this have to do with disc drag? I don't think you
>> understand the basic system. Absent a problem with the slave cylinder,
>> when you release the lever, the brake retracts, the seals on the slave
>> piston rolls back, and assuming you don't have sticking pistons, the
>> pads withdraw. If you have dragging discs, you're a bad mechanic. I have
>> (after recounting, and including my wife's e-bike) five hydro-disc
>> bikes, and no drag on any of them.
>
> 'You simply don't understand the problem and you keep attempting to argue
> about the basic engineering. IF you are riding in the rain and are
> careful there may be a small advantage to them but NOT if you're riding
> fast, Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable
> and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far
> as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the
> heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose
> that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But
>

Unless your dragging your brakes at which point the brakes will overheat
and fail, though that happens to all brakes.

You really shouldn’t have a problem with overheating, and I don’t.

Can you get them hot if you push hard? Yes clearly, but most roadies simply
aren’t going to work the brakes that hard, big road descents don’t push my
gravel bikes brakes hard I’ve ridden it down 22miles of switch backs and so
on with out problems.

It will get hot if your descending something which is more MTB than gravel
as your having to consistently brake hard and pick around stuff, on
something more sane it keeps cool.

If you don’t like them well that’s fine, personally I’m not sure they
benefit (road) racers due to wheel changes vs performance gains.

But for most people it’s a gain, quite apart from anything else as they
self adjust will not be maladjusted unless someone has fitted themselves!

Roger Merriman.

[John B.]

I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

You could probably save more weight by skipping breakfast in the
morning (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2021 2:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>> it?
>>
>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
>>
>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
>> measurement,
>
> They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.

But wait - you said it was a descent, not a roller test. Has your
"memory" changed?

I'm very familiar with infrared temperature measurement, Tom. Among
other things, I've mapped the entire interior of my house using our
department's instrument. And I'd _really_ like to see the article where
they gave the results you claimed.

Again, 350 C is seriously hot. Do you "remember" where that article is?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp, Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents. 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

350 Celsius is 662 Fahrenheit. Melting temperature of lead is 621.5 F. Melting temperature of aluminum is 1221 F. Plumbing and electronics solder melts at lower temperatures. But any case, Tommy's 350 C is only half what it would take to melt aluminum rims. I don't know if they would get soft and wobbly at half the melting temperature.

[John B.]

I once did a sort of test on rim heating. First time down the mountain
I rode the brakes nearly all the way down and stopped and felt of the
rims. Yes! Hot! then I did a repeat run braking hard to almost a
walking speed then off the brake and coasted and braked hard, etc.
Felt the rims and not hot at all.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

While I’ve never blown a tire due to overheating rims I have done some long
twisty descents where I could smell the brake pads. The brake then coast
to speed technique might have kept me from blowing a tire but I can’t say
for sure. It was pretty scary though.

[sms]

On 10/23/2021 12:41 PM, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

> On the technical subject, a self-adjusting disc brake does not by "necessity" drag. If the pistons are not gunky and the seals not defective, the pistons will always retract when the seals return to their neutral position. Like I said, I have -- correction, including my wife's e-bike -- five hydro-disc brake bikes, and the discs do not consistently drag on any of them. I will get periodic dragging due to gunk which usually resolves on its own, but if not, I extend the pistons and clean them.

Tom is wrong of course™.

As long as the disc is not bent, and the pistons retract properly and
are set with a bit of clearance, there is no drag.

<https://www.roadbikerider.com/a-cool-tool-for-fixing-rubbing-disc-brakes/>.

Anyone not using disc brakes on their bicycles is standing in the way of
human progress.

[William Crowell]

I'm using aluminum rims and rim brakes. There are a couple of descents into the American River canyon near here, during which you have to stay on the brakes just about all the time, and on which I often blow my tube due to the heat generated, so I have to stop about halfway down to let the rims cooI. I must admit that it would be nice to have a good set of hydraulic disc brakes, but I'll probably never get my chit together to install them on the old Paramount.

[Tom Kunich]

I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money". No one with any investments save the lucky few who predicted the wild growth of Google and Facebook and Amazon made any money. Why did you do this when it was so plainly not true? That FINAL growth of 11% was more than absorbed by the deflation of the dollar from Obama's printing money for his quantitative easing. Inventing your own universe like Scharf does (and continues to do so sadly that even Frank has to call him out) is not a sign of intelligence. As an accountant you must be able to have seen what happened to the market. Either that or it was of no interest to you because you had no investments to lose and no bank savings to have deflated out of existence.

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, the huge tires and very poor aerodynamics of an MTB, especially with bags on tend to limit your speed to one that need little severe control. And I don't know your age. I know that I've REALLY slowed down on my descents and rarely exceed 40 mph anymore. This tends to make the bike easier to control and keeps the braking within a safer zone.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, are you saying that you can in some manner instrument disks to give you a direct temperature reading? You continue to show that you know nothing about even basic engineering. I trey to give you a brake time and time again and you continue to say absolutely stupid things. Perhaps you can tell us how the hell the Shimano Factory would test temperature of the disk? Give us your vast engineering knowledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utMchnpW1vo&t=21s Peak Torque is an aerospace engineer and he did another video on the great heating of disks but I can't find it on my desktop though it's on my smartphone.

[AMuzi]

On 10/25/2021 10:11 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> I'm using aluminum rims and rim brakes. There are a couple of descents into the American River canyon near here, during which you have to stay on the brakes just about all the time, and on which I often blow my tube due to the heat generated, so I have to stop about halfway down to let the rims cooI. I must admit that it would be nice to have a good set of hydraulic disc brakes, but I'll probably never get my chit together to install them on the old Paramount.
>

The world's a big place with a lot of interesting things,
and people do have amazingly different tastes and opinions.

And I have no agenda here, anything you wish is fine with
me. But you are not going to add road discs to a classic
Paramount.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2021 11:11 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> I'm using aluminum rims and rim brakes. There are a couple of descents into the American River canyon near here, during which you have to stay on the brakes just about all the time, and on which I often blow my tube due to the heat generated, so I have to stop about halfway down to let the rims cooI. I must admit that it would be nice to have a good set of hydraulic disc brakes, but I'll probably never get my chit together to install them on the old Paramount.
>

I'm curious about those descents. Do you have an idea of the percent
grade and length?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2021 11:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money".

Tom, everyone has looked at the same market graphs that you have.

You are not the only person in this group who leans conservative, but
you are the only one who claims the data show losses under Obama.

Once again, everyone is out of step except our little Tommy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2021 12:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:20:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/24/2021 2:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>>>> it?
>>>>
>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
>>>> measurement,
>>>
>>> They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.
>> But wait - you said it was a descent, not a roller test. Has your
>> "memory" changed?
>>
>> I'm very familiar with infrared temperature measurement, Tom. Among
>> other things, I've mapped the entire interior of my house using our
>> department's instrument. And I'd _really_ like to see the article where
>> they gave the results you claimed.
>>
>> Again, 350 C is seriously hot. Do you "remember" where that article is?
>
> Frank, are you saying that you can in some manner instrument disks to give you a direct temperature reading?

I was not saying that, but that doesn't matter. Of course one can
instrument disks to get direct temperature readings.

That's not the point. I was asking for details on your claim. You said
the disks got to 350 C on a descent. I asked for details and you
switched the scenario to a roller test, then deflected into arguing
about infra-red.

You've still given no link to the source of your information, and that's
what I was really after. I'm beginning to suspect that yet again, you've
imagined the "data" that you presented, meager as it was. (I wasted
several minutes watching the video you linked below, but AFAICT your
claimed 350 C wasn't in there.)

You continue to show that you know nothing about even basic engineering.
I trey to give you a brake time and time again and you continue to say
absolutely stupid things. Perhaps you can tell us how the hell the
Shimano Factory would test temperature of the disk? Give us your vast
engineering knowledge.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utMchnpW1vo&t=21s Peak Torque is an aerospace engineer and he did another video on the great heating of disks but I can't find it on my desktop though it's on my smartphone.
>

--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Apart from grades and lengths, the Central Valley into the Sierra foothills can be really hot. https://activerain-store.s3.amazonaws.com/image_store/uploads/5/8/7/7/4/ar136425931647785.JPG That segment on HWY 49 is killer in summer -- although I've only done the "up" version going south. No trees, no shade, relentless climb. What's not to like? I could see cooking your rims on that one. A lot of the big Sierra descents are shaded and higher elevation, and for most of them, you can let the bike run. It's rare to have to brake the whole way or for long sections. William is probably taking some twisting back road in the foothills where it is hard to let the bike run -- and is probably blowing-off tires on hot days.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

You simply can't make a posting without showing your incompetence, Steel disks were getting so hot that they were distorting and then rubbing. But you think that Shimano made the sandwich disks merely for financial gain.

Since you are the world's smartest engineer tell me how to instrument a bicycle disk to measure it's maximum normal operating temperature. I'll be waiting.

[Tom Kunich]

Other than some short areas of the death ride, there are very few really steep passes in the Sierra Nevada and probably the rockies. These roads are built along railroad lines or were built when materials had to be hauled in with mule teams so that limits them to 7% or less. While 40 mph can be achieved in a long 7%er, most people sit up to have a better view of the road which more or less limits them to that 40 mph or so.

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 9:42:28 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:

I descended the old grape vine on a touring bike and for all of the complaints of how steep that was, aside from the constant turns, it wasn't that difficult.

[sms]

I used to stop occasionally, to let the rims cool, on those long
downhill runs when I was doing loaded touring. The rims were hot, but I
don't know if I was being over-cautious. I would not wanted to have a
blowout at 40-50 MPH.

On our tandem I have an extra rear wheel with an Arai drum brake.

[William Crowell]

OK, cool, Andrew. I guess I should have known that!

[AMuzi]

What? Your humor went over my head.
It's an off-the-rack thing:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=temperature+transducer+for+brake+disc&t=h_&ia=web

[William Crowell]

A better example would be a descent in the Placerville area: Buck's Bar Road, into the North Fork of the Consumnes River basin. That one is closer to me, and it will blow my tube almost every time unless I stop to let the rims cool. Here's a picture of the descent:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13OVzLsNUljbvoSX0uZ1Tdo01TSKpu-nD/view?usp=sharing

I calculate it to be 732 feet of descent in 1.3 miles, or about 11%. Whatsay?

[Frank Krygowski]

And if you want to go super-inexpensive, you could explore something
like these:
https://www.grainger.com/category/test-instruments/temperature-and-environmental-measurement/temperature-strips-dots

or even https://markal.com/products/tempilstik

to get an idea of the maximum temperatures.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

The main limit was the streams of other cyclists and cars, so lots of
having to feather the brakes and so on, so you’d expect to have fairly warm
brakes as unlike a clear run, I was having to use them quite a bit.

With the weight of the bike plus it’s grip levels I suspect it would hold
its own with a clear run on that hill, which has numerous hairpin bends and
so on.

Roger Merriman.

[Roger Merriman]

One of my MTB descents is wet rocky and very steep, you can hear how hot
the brakes get due to the water boiling off the rotors!

It’s about the only one though and the brakes don’t seem to mind ie fade
they just get hot!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Thanks. Here in the Appalachian foothills, or the Appalachians
themselves, grades can be really steep (over 15%) but at least in my
riding area there are almost none that are a mile long. The most
impressive that comes to mind is probably about 1.25 miles long, but
only about 500 feet drop. That's where I hit my maximum speed, 54 mph.
Fortunately, it's got good visibility and no intersections, so I would
just let it roll - back in the day.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

Go faster. Then more of your kinetic energy gets burned off as aerodynamic
drag. In the limit, you don’t even need brakes, just better life insurance.


Go slower. That reduces the rate of heat input into your brakes and also
gives them more time to cool.

Find other ways to slow down. Sit upright, open your jacket. Buy a drum
brake.

[Tom Kunich]

Well there's a a problem with that 1. rubbing against a rough metal surface you're more likely to be reading frictional heating than the surface temperature of the disk. 2. You have to have a mount that holds it in the proper position with regards to the surface of the disk. 3. You have to wire it into a recording device. 5. You have to characterize the load on the pads to the point that they have a good representation of a load that the bike is likely to see.

This all is all hell and gone easier to do on a rolling resistance drum that every bicycle engineering department either has or has ready access to. Trying to make direct measurements like that is not accurate and at those temperatures a pyrometer is cheap, easy and FAR more accurate.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me Frank, where would a good place be to stick temperature labels on a disk brake?

[Tom Kunich]

I really don't understand this. Although the off-road stuff I was riding was REALLY extreme and I was fairly careful with the brakes, I warped a disk myself. How can anyone ride off-road crash and burn levels of MTB and not have disk warping? In that video I sited the expansion and contraction of the Shimano sandwich disks were causing them to fracture on the sides. I think they even showed a disk with a chunk broken out of it. It isn't as if this is some unknown problem. That is why Shimano is attempting to find a means of preventing it.

Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber. Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted. There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel appeared normal after the crash.

[Tom Kunich]

Everything is a compromise. The problem is hard application of the disks going into fast downhill corners. If you break about the same place you would with rim brakes you probably don't have the problem. Also, although you hear Jay tooting his horn, it is unlikely he is as fast or brakes as late as the pro's do. In his case he has to watch out for trying to hold his speed down on very long fast descents.

On one of my normal rides, there is a descent of 16%. I ride the rim brakes down that for the 500 yards. But there is a right hand turn onto a busy street so you can't run out. But if you keep your speed just right it doesn't wear the rim or the brakes.

[AMuzi]

Prior art for autos, fleet trucks, racing cars, airplanes
etc offers myriad solutions without reinventing that wheel.

[AMuzi]

As with racing cars, just below the pad track.

[Tom Kunich]

Uh, where? https://cdn.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/main_width/public/specialized-ruby-front-disc-brake.jpg?itok=GUclclqG

[Tom Kunich]

Cars and motorcycles are completely different. First there is POWER to spare. Second they are very large, very thick and smooth until badly worn. As usual bicycles need a different answer.

[John B.]

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:49:12 -0000 (UTC), Duane
<no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>russell...@yahoo.com <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski

>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
>>>>> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
>>>>>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
>>>>>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so

>>>>>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But

>>>>>
>>>>> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
>>>>> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature

>>>>> measurement, etc?
>>>>
>>>> I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
>>>> long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
>>>> all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
>>> Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
>>> 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off
>> tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp,
>> Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents.
>> 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a
>> lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was aware
>> of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes constantly.
>> On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.
>>
>

>While I’ve never blown a tire due to overheating rims I have done some long
>twisty descents where I could smell the brake pads. The brake then coast
>to speed technique might have kept me from blowing a tire but I can’t say
>for sure. It was pretty scary though.

Well, one of the "qualification" requirements for the bicycle race up
Mt. Washington is that you have a motor vehicle to tote your bicycle
down the mountain after the race. Too dangerious to ride Down the
mountain (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

But who cares? After all F1 brakes seem to get red hot without anyone
getting all worried about it. Is this a sign that bicycle brakes are
"under designed". - translated "Cheap POS".
https://www.automobiliardent.com/index.php/home/article_detail/216
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 7:38:00 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 5:55:00 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > On Sun, 24 Oct 2021 13:46:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>> Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > >>
> > >> Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> > >> properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> > >> it?
> > >>
> > >>> ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone
> > >>> so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to
> > >>> spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so

> > >>> you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? But

> > >>
> > >> That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> > >> describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature

> > >> measurement, etc?
> > >
> > > I really wonder about this brake heating as I've descended some rather
> > > long and steep hills with aluminum rims with no apparent heating at
> > > all. Perhaps it is in the technique?
> > Largely I think possibly exasperated by some road bikes being fitted with
> > 140mm rotors in a weight saving effort.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> I've always been a bit skeptical of the overheating rims and blowing off tires myth. I've toured on a loaded touring bike in the Swiss Alp, Italian Dolomites, and Colorado Rockies. Multi, multi mile descents. 50-60 mph easily achieved. I would always brake hard and slow down a lot. And then coast back up to high speed. Repeat. Because I was aware of the overheating rims myth, I never ever rode the brakes constantly. On hard, then off to let them cool. If that was even needed.

You need a combination of high ambient air temperature and heavy braking, typically with a heavy load like a tandem. The only time it happened to me was on a tandem, and I was hard-braking because my wife didn't like descending fast (she was squeezing her stubby placebo brakes). On this relatively short local descent (3.5 miles). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0&ab_channel=leveloff (wet version).

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

This is NOT new technology, been around for decades:

'serving suggestion' below
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/discsbi.jpg

[AMuzi]

Nope, not different in this regard.

The designer/engineer allowed for a given heat range so
there has to be a way to test that with various loads &
durations, pad material, ambient temperature and so on.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 10:31:56 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 12:04:07 PM UTC-7, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 1:34:39 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 11:29:43 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > > > On Sunday, October 24, 2021 at 10:46:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > On 10/24/2021 11:07 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > Disks will overheat to the point where the metal becomes pliable...
> > > > > > Hmm. "Pliable" is not a term normally found in tables of metallic
> > > > > properties. How is that defined, exactly? What units are used to measure
> > > > > it?
> > > > >
> > > > > > ... and there is nothing you can do about that. Shimano has even gone so far as to sandwich two steel plates over an aluminum center to spread the heat and yet they have measured 350 C on descents. What so you suppose that does to the brake pads and hydraulic fluid? Bu
> > > > >

> > > > > That's pretty impressive. 350 C is seriously hot. Can you give us a link
> > > > > describing the details of the bike's descent, the method of temperature
> > > > > measurement,

> > > > They simulated the downhill constant braking on a rolling resistance drum and used that really modern technology called infrared photography. This required multimillions of dollars as I'm sure you would agree. Of course, the really hard part would be knowing what color would be what temperature. You might be forced to open a physics book. Or if they really wanted to go out on a limb, they could pay $80 for an over-the-counter pyrometer and take direct temperature readings in real time.
> > > >

> > > > For the life of me I simply cannot tell why you feel the need to prove to everyone that as an engineer you are totally incompetent. You have been doing this repeatedly and I have simply figured it was you attempting to make me write another thesis. But it has become so plain that a child could tell that you know NOTHING about engineering.
> > > Frank, I am not saying this merely as some sort of baseless insult. I think that it is time for you to face the fact that if you ever had any engineering knowledge that time has long ago passed. You sound like Russell who can't do simple math telling us that he is an accountant.
> > But Tommy boy, I have shown you lots and lots of simple math that plainly and clearly show the stock market went up more under Obama than under Trump. Yet you, no high school diploma, cannot understand that math. I encourage you to show us the stock market numbers on Obama's two inaugurations and on Trump's inauguration and the numbers on their leaving office. Then we can all do the simple math. Please present the FACTS Tommy. FACTS. FACTS.
> >
> > When you present these stock numbers, please present broad based numbers representing the whole stock market. Such as the Vanguard Total stock market, the S&P 500. Dow Jones, Russell 2000, Nasdaq, QQQ. Something that is a lot of companies. Not one or two companies that went up or down. Broad based, diverse.
> >
> > Me and everyone else are waiting for your factual numbers Tommy boy.
> I showed you the numbers of the market during Obama and Trump and you couldn't dispute them but then you turned right around and said that people made money during Obama. Plainly you have something missing if you couldn't tell the difference between attempting to recover from the Great Recession and " making money". No one with any investments save the lucky few who predicted the wild growth of Google and Facebook and Amazon made any money. Why did you do this when it was so plainly not true? That FINAL growth of 11% was more than absorbed by the deflation of the dollar from Obama's printing money for his quantitative easing. Inventing your own universe like Scharf does (and continues to do so sadly that even Frank has to call him out) is not a sign of intelligence. As an accountant you must be able to have seen what happened to the market. Either that or it was of no interest to you because you had no investments to lose and no bank savings to have deflated out of existence.

You are STUPID Tommy boy. Anyway...

Below is a post I made in another thread. I have edited it a bit.


"I am going to use the S&P 500 index as the Market. It is only the 500 biggest market capitalization companies, but it is a broad representation of all areas of the economy since the 500 biggest companies do everything on earth.

Below is a table, list, columns, showing the S&P 500 index on January 20 or the prior closing day if the 20th is a weekend. Year first, then S&P 500 index are the two columns. Easy to figure out the annual return in the S&P 500 each year.
2009 805.22
2010 1138.04
2011 1280.26
2012 1315.38
2013 1485.98
2014 1838.7
2015 2022.55
2016 1859.33
2017 2271.31

S&P 500 under golden calf Trump. All are January 20 prices in the year listed.
2017 2271.31
2018 2810.3
2019 2670.71
2020 3329.62
2021 3851.85"


The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closing_milestones_of_the_S%26P_500

The S&P 500 reached that high again on March 28, 2013 at 1569.19. This happened during Obama's second term as president.

During Obama's first term the S&P 500 went from 805.22 to 1485.98, GAIN of 84.54% since he took office. During Obama's second term the S&P 500 went from 1485.98 to 2271.31, GAIN of 52.85%. During Trump's one term as president the S&P 500 went from 2271.31 to 3851.85, GAIN of 69.59%.

Now I will throw the scoundrel DOG Tommy boy a bone. It took Obama four years and two plus months in office to get the S&P 500 back to the high reached under Bush2. Do you understand that Tommy boy? The high for the S&P 500 was achieved by BUSH2 back in October 9, 2007. BUSH2 the REPUBLICAN. Obama the Democrat did not take office until almost 16 months later. The S&P 500 was at a high months before the first primary in Iowa was even held in January 2008. I'm guessing Obama had declared himself running for president by October 2007. But BUSH2 was president when the S&P 500 reached its high on October 9, 2007. And it took until March 28, 2013 before Obama got the S&P 500 to close that high again. Four plus years later. Obama had to overcome a lot of destruction to the economy that Bush2 and Republicans did before he took office. And it took until his second term to overcome their destruction.

You seem fascinated with this high and low of the markets. You seem to think everyone, or you anyway, can buy at the low and sell at the high. And you think this is achievable every single day too. Maybe for you the greatest financial genius in all of history, you, can do this. But everyone else sees high and lows and that is it. For instance, all of the stocks I own were at a high today. But I did not sell at the high today. No, I kept them and they all finished lower than the daily highs. So by your F-cked up nonsense, I lost money today. But no, I gained from the closing yesterday to the closing today. No one on earth can buy and sell every day at the highs and lows every day. You would be the richest person on earth if you could do that every day.

[John B.]

No Andrew, the only solution to the tremendous braking loads imposed
on bicycle brakes is liquid cooled brakes as in
https://sudonull.com/post/10503-Liquid-brake-cooling-system
Granted it will increase the overall weight of the bike but that is a
negligible factor when the increased safety of the rider is
considered.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

That would help. Or you could just slit and pierce the rotor
for better airflow. A certain amount of energy is going to
be converted to heat and there are many ways to dissipate
that heat to maintain a peak temperature below failure limits.

But you're addressing mitigation of peak temperature, not
measurement of peak temperature, which was the discussion above.

[John B.]

Well actually I was being sarcastic as the "problem", as it usually is
here, is simple to eliminate... larger rotors. Works with everything
else on wheels and will undoubtedly work on bicycles. Unfortunately
physics is a bit more then a course in school. If a vehicle weighs X
pounds and is traveling Y miles per hour stopping it requires Z amount
of energy to be converted into heat. You can use external cooling or
you can use rotor mass but the heat generated has to be eliminated in
some manner.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 09:07:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utMchnpW1vo&t=21s Peak Torque is an aerospace engineer and he did another video on the great heating of disks but I can't find it on my desktop though it's on my smartphone.

This video?
"The Physics of Froomey's Disc comments."
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJK_d6onNjo> (5:12)
The video has no mention of "great heating".

If not, here is Peak Torque's list of videos:
<https://www.youtube.com/c/PeakTorque/videos>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 25.10.2021 um 20:50 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 10/25/2021 1:52 PM, William Crowell wrote:
>> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 9:20:16 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/25/2021 11:11 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>> I'm using aluminum rims and rim brakes. There are a couple of
>>>> descents into the American River canyon near here, during which you
>>>> have to stay on the brakes just about all the time, and on which I
>>>> often blow my tube due to the heat generated, so I have to stop
>>>> about halfway down to let the rims cooI. I must admit that it would
>>>> be nice to have a good set of hydraulic disc brakes, but I'll
>>>> probably never get my chit together to install them on the old
>>>> Paramount.
>>>>
>>> I'm curious about those descents. Do you have an idea of the percent
>>> grade and length?
>>

>> A better example would be a descent in the Placerville area: Buck's
>> Bar Road, into the North Fork of the Consumnes River basin.  That one
>> is closer to me, and it will blow my tube almost every time unless I
>> stop to let the rims cool.  Here's a picture of the descent:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/13OVzLsNUljbvoSX0uZ1Tdo01TSKpu-nD/view?usp=sharing
>>
>> I calculate it to be 732 feet of descent in 1.3 miles, or about 11%.
>> Whatsay?
>
> Thanks. Here in the Appalachian foothills, or the Appalachians
> themselves, grades can be really steep (over 15%) but at least in my
> riding area there are almost none that are a mile long. The most
> impressive that comes to mind is probably about 1.25 miles long, but
> only about 500 feet drop. That's where I hit my maximum speed, 54 mph.
> Fortunately, it's got good visibility and no intersections, so I would
> just let it roll - back in the day.

This is where math comes into the game. In the extremes of "letting
roll" (where air resistance does all the braking) and "descend at close
to 0 mph" (where you have a braking force but no energy to dissipate)
the heating (energy dissipation per feet drop) curve has its two zeroes.

With the heating curve being a quadratic function, it has its maximum
exactly in the middle between those two zeroes. So if you wish to heat
up your disks, you ideally keep your bike at a constant speed of 25-30
mph on a 15% grade or at 20-25 mph on a 10% grade.
Now the engineer can calculate how much heat needs to be dissipated per
feet drop at those speeds and how that heats up a disk ;-)

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you insist on showing your ignorance. According to Russy, there was no recession at all let alone a Great Recession. Well, as it turns out, the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests. This is where Billionaires invest, not the common investor.

Don't you find it interesting that Russy had to work very hard to show that large companies even, did poorly under Obama?

On the other hand the Dow Jones Industrial Average was 13,338.23 on January 2, 2008 and 7449.38 on November 21st? Not to mention that when the Democrat Congress took over in 2006 the Dow was 1,000 points higher. This was a fall of 45%. As for my investments, I had lost quite a bit of money under the Democrat Congress but under Obama directly my losses almost perfectly tracked Obama's economic destruction with a 50% loss. Russy has no idea of how to calculate losses or gains and yet he pretends to be an accountant. I find that impossible to believe. Either than or he has an employer that is a twit.

All of this is nothing more than the Democrats trying to put a fright into you so that they can save you from it., This is what covid-19 - the nondisease disease - is and Climate Change where the end of the world is always move up another 10 years as the end of the world approaches.

This is the entire world of Russy and Scharf. Too bad the world won't cooperate with their stupidity.

[Frank Krygowski]

As I've mentioned, I recall from long ago a technical article in the
U.S. magazine _Bicycling_ discussing brake heating. (That was way back
when it had technical articles instead of "You gotta have this!"
articles.) The author's computations and graphs claimed that maximum
heating typically occurred when holding one's speed to about 30 mph. The
author pointed out that's about the speed most riders choose on long
steep downhills. IOW, they choose the worst speed.

> Now the engineer can calculate how much heat needs to be dissipated per
> feet drop at those speeds and how that heats up a disk ;-)

Not me! I let other guys cover thermal issues. I know enough about it to
know that air cooling is very complicated and very dependent on
application-specific details.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Of course you're speaking of sport riders since Pro's descend at the highest speed possible and brake at the last possible second and only to the speed necessary to make the turn. You and I are not young enough to foolishly take more risks than necessary because there is no prize in it for us.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Gosh almighty, Tommy. You are STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Don't you find it interesting that Russy had to work very hard to show that large companies even, did poorly under Obama?

Stupid. The S&P 500, the LARGE companies, did very well under Obama's presidency. Started at 805.22 on Obama's first inauguration and ended at 2271.31 when he left office eight years later. The FACTS show this very clearly. Since you are mathematically challenged Tommy boy, I will explain to you that 2271.31 is a whole lot larger than 805.22. The S&P 500 GAINED 182% during Obama's time in office. GAINED 182%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAINED 182%!!!!!!!!!!!!! GAINED 182%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>
> On the other hand the Dow Jones Industrial Average was 13,338.23 on January 2, 2008 and 7449.38 on November 21st?

This all happened when Bush2 was president. Republican. Obama was elected president in early November 2008 and did not take office until January 20, 2009.

> Not to mention that when the Democrat Congress took over in 2006 the Dow was 1,000 points higher.

Bush2 the Republican was president.

> This was a fall of 45%. As for my investments, I had lost quite a bit of money under the Democrat Congress but under Obama directly my losses almost perfectly tracked Obama's economic destruction with a 50% loss.

But Tommy boy, the facts I posted above clearly show that the S&P 500 went up, up, up, up, up when Obama was president. Except 2015 to 2016 when the S&P 500 lost valuation. How on earth did you lose 50% of your investments under Obama? Are you stupid? Did you let some shady "financial advisor" steal your money by promising you gold and diamonds? Everyone else on earth got rich, rich, rich with Obama as president. Tommy boy I think you would go away hungry at a free buffet where they bring the food to your table.

> Russy has no idea of how to calculate losses or gains and yet he pretends to be an accountant. I find that impossible to believe. Either than or he has an employer that is a twit.

Gains and losses on stock investments, which you seem to have plenty of, are easy to calculate. Buy price minus sell price times number of shares equals gain or loss. That is for a long position. For a short, its sell price minus buy price times number of shares shorted equals gain or loss. Even someone without a high school diploma should be able to figure this out. But it does involve subtraction and multiplication. Complex math maybe for someone without a diploma.

>
> All of this is nothing more than the Democrats trying to put a fright into you so that they can save you from it., This is what covid-19 - the nondisease disease - is and Climate Change where the end of the world is always move up another 10 years as the end of the world approaches.
>
> This is the entire world of Russy and Scharf. Too bad the world won't cooperate with their stupidity.

No Tommy. I am not frightened anymore. The potential dictator attempting to overthrow the USA government is not president anymore. A true president is now running things. Economy is vastly improved. Stock prices are at all time highs. Dow and S&P 500 both hit all time closing highs today. October 26, 2021 with President Joe Biden. ALL TIME RECORD HIGHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Covid-19 is getting better under control with the enforced vaccine mandates. Lot of booster shot approvals. Future looks good under Joe. Of course Trump and his Republican ilk did allow and help Covid to kill over 700,000 Americans.

This is a link to the ALL TIME DOW and S&P 500 HIGHS.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/stock-market-news-live-updates-october-26-2021-221500971.html?.tsrc=fin-notif

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Sorry my apologies. I forgot to comment on this asinine statement by Tommy in my first response to this basket case of a reply by Tommy boy.

Tommy said: "the Standard and Poor's 500 are the largest companies in the US and in some cases the world and those least likely to have much change in their values. These are the companies that people who do not wish to make money but only want a place to safely stash their money so that it pays slightly more than bank rates invests."

So Tommy thinks the S&P 500 are the companies least likely to have much change in their values. Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Amazon are all the very top of the S&P 500 list. They don't ever change in valuation. Right Tommy boy? Stupidity, thy name is Tommy. So people who do not want to make any money buy these stocks? I bet no one has ever made any money buying Apple or Facebook or Google or Microsoft or Amazon. They just bought these stocks to earn more than their bank interest rates. I know its too complex for Tommy boy to do the math, but anyone else can easily see the annual percentage increase in the S&P 500 is much greater than bank interest rates. Except 2015 to 2016 and 2018 to 2019 when the S&P 500 lost money those two years.

Tommy boy, once again you clearly show why your financial advisor is reaming your bung hole and stealing your money. You know absolutely nothing about financial investments. I almost have pity for you.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Apologies again for responding again to this one post from Tommy. It had so many crazy arse comments I lost track of what to castigate him about. Yes Tommy boy there was a Great Recession. They had to think up a new name after the Great Depression of the 1930s. So Great Recession. Maybe they will call the next big huge enormous downfall the Great Catastrophe. Anyway, the Great Recession officially occurred December 2007 to June 2009. Bush2 was president from December 2007 to January 20, 2009. Obama took over as president on January 20, 2009 and was still president when he ended the great Recession in June 2009. Started by the Republicans, ended by the Democrats. Typical.

This is what Google displayed when I did a search on "great recession".
The Great Recession, one of the worst economic declines in US history, officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009. The collapse of the housing market — fueled by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgages — led to the economic crisis.

Some more links for the great Recession.
https://www.businessinsider.com/what-caused-the-great-recession#:~:text=The%20Great%20Recession%2C%20one%20of,led%20to%20the%20economic%20crisis.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession

https://www.federalreservehistory.org/essays/great-recession-of-200709

[Roger Merriman]

I’ve yet to but my background is MTB I’m a MTBer who likes road bikes well
Gravel bikes. So I’m quite light on the bike, after all I grew up with
bikes with no suspension and primitive braking at best!

I don’t even seem to wear out pads fast and I use organic as sintered does
my head in!

I go though though the full travel on the suspension now and then, and have
ripped tires that weren’t burly enough, mainly when first had the full
suspension and it allows you to travel much faster/harder and the lighter
weight tires I had being using just didn’t cope!

> Another problem is that now people are using direct mount calipers. These
> are mounted directly on carbon fiber forks and chainstays and produce
> temperatures well above those that melt the resins used in carbon fiber.
> Because people so rarely are in these positions they don't know what can
> happen. This reminds me of a video that one of the crit guys posted.
> There was a guy drafting the camera bike and he pulled out for the final
> sprint and as he pulled out and hit the gas, his aero wheel distorted
> over about 30 degrees of course crashing him. Without that video, I'll
> bet you, he would never have known what cause his crash because the wheel
> appeared normal after the crash.
>

I’d assume that would be a warranty/recall so that I suspect maybe less
that the full truth.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I intend to mount SpD MTB pedals on the gravel bike. I found some new takeoffs on Ebay so they're coming. I just went down into the garage and the tubeless tires are flat again. There doesn't appear to be any leaking sealant anywhere around the tires and I seem to remember that some tires would absorb the sealant and need almost immediate renewal so that is my next move. With them pumped all of the way up the ride was remarkably smooth very much smoother than the same size tire with a tube in it. I expect the Douglas Vector to ride smother since I installed Latex tubes in them as the only tubes I had that had 40 mm fillers. And since the largest tires that fit that bike are 25's it will need them.

I was one of the first to start riding off-road on MTB's. I had already done a lot of off-road with street bike or what became CX since touring bikes had cantilevers and VB-brakes turned up very rapidly since cantilevers required so much hand strength to stop you. Remember the Bridgestone MB series? It took a whole lot longer than you would expect to catch on. But there was a large uptick when hydraulic suspension forks showed up not so much because of the suspension I believe as much as because that heavy fork held the front end down during hard climbs.

But I used street bikes so much off-road that I could never could quite see the point in an MTB and soon returned. Now they are called gravel bikes but are what I usually rode. I did have some real CX bikes and with 32 mm knobbies on them they rolled quite well on the road. I would do our weekly Moraga Ride ( 37 miles and 3700 feet of climbing up to 10%) on them and they didn't slow me up at all. Of course I was still in my 60's and hadn't started the rather rapid slow down I have gone through.

When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.

[Roger Merriman]

If you the Gravel bike copes and well it’s generally a hint that it’s not
really MTB stuff, some of the trails are simply un rideable on gravel bikes
for most people even with 30mm of suspension and 50mm tires, they simply
can’t cope with the slope or hits like a MTB with 60mm + of tire and at
least 100mm of suspension plus the geometry etc, I have both and they are
both great but very different.

> When I am too old to climb anymore, I will do wind rides and gravel rides
> that simulate most if not all of the effort. I won't quit and I'm only
> glad my cop friend brought me back from my near death experience and I
> intend to torture him with his mistake for the rest of his life.
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

The only stuff that is un-rideable on anything but a mountain bike are areas you purposely have to chose and almost always even a hiker would not take that route. It is one thing saying that you can ride an MTB anywhere and then forcing yourself to ride where a better pathway exists. With care I can ascend and descent 25% trails and doing that on a fully suspended MTB simply makes the ruts less needing of attention.

[Tom Kunich]

> > On the other hand the Dow Jones Industrial Average was 13,338.23 on January 2, 2008 and 7449.38 on November 21st? Not to mention that when the Democrat Congress took over in 2006 the Dow was 1,000 points higher. This was a fall of 45%. As for my investments, I had lost quite a bit of money under the Democrat Congress but under Obama directly my losses almost perfectly tracked Obama's economic destuction with a 50% loss. Russy has no idea of how to calculate losses or gains and yet he pretends to be an accountant. I find that impossible to believe. Either than or he has an employer that is a twit.

> >
> > All of this is nothing more than the Democrats trying to put a fright into you so that they can save you from it., This is what covid-19 - the nondisease disease - is and Climate Change where the end of the world is always move up another 10 years as the end of the world approaches.
> >
> > This is the entire world of Russy and Scharf. Too bad the world won't cooperate with their stupidity.

Every time you post I get another laugh. For instance. I actually went out and looked at the historic S&P 500. Before Obama was elected the S&P was at 1530. Upon Obama's election it fell to 735. For someone like you who is clumsy with numbers that is a 52% drop. From that point it is pretty difficult to go any way but up. In December of 2018 when Obama left office the S&P was at 2673 which means that the large business investor made only 1000 points and every inch of the way they LOST money which made that "gain" a loss with a 14.2%. inflation. Trump had a 5.6% inflation but by the end of his term it had slowed to 4%, A second term with his policies would have brought it to a halt.

Tell me, do you really think that your lies aren't going to be discovered and thrown right back in your face?

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Wow Tommy boy. Your LIES are getting to rival your idol Trumpy.

I wrote this in a prior post to this thread. Facts.

"The S&P 500 reached an all time high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007."

Bush2 was president when this occurred and would be president for another 13 months before Obama was elected president the first time in November 2008. You claim the S&P 500 was about 735 when Obama was elected in November 2008. I did not check this but maybe its true. Hard to tell with you as a source. But after Obama was elected the country saw hope with him as the upcoming president and rallied to 805.22 on January 20, 2009 when Obama was first inaugurated. Small gain of about 10% with the optimism of having him as president. Took 2.5 months for this increase in the S&P 500. OK. From your 735 to 805.22.

When Obama was elected the S&P 500 was 805.22. When he left 8 years later it was 2271.31. 182% increase attributable all to Obama. You claim one must always judge things against historical highs. For some reason. So from the high of 1565.15 on October 9, 2007 to the 2271.31 on January 20, 2017, when Obama left office, the S&P 500 gained 706.16 points total. 45.12% GAIN from the prior S&P 500 high on Oct 9, 2007 to Jan 20, 2017.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/inflation-rate-cpi
The above link shows the inflation rate every year. You can easily download a spreadsheet showing the inflation rate each year. During Obama's eight years in office 2009-2016, the total inflation adds up to 10.9778%. Total. 1.37% per year divided by eight. I'm not sure with inflation if its additive each year or is you have to multiply it year after year. Compound. But Obama's total inflation for his eight years was 10.9778%. Now for Trumpy's four years in office, the total inflation was 7.6185%. 2017 was 2.13%. 2018 was 2.44%. 2019 was 1.81%. 2020 was 1.23%. Trump averaged 1.9% inflation each year if you divide the 7.6185% by four. Obama's average annual inflation rate was much lower than Trump's annual inflation rate. Another Obama win. See the above link I posted for annual inflation rates.

So again Tommy boy is a LIAR. Obama was not 14.2% as you LIE. It was only 10.9778%. And Trump's was not 5.6% as you LIE. It was 7.6185%. LIAR LIAR Tommy boy, pants on fire.

Tommy boy, now might be the time I should recommend you stop responding to my FACTS, with your LIES, and run away and hide your head in a toilet.

[Tom Kunich]

> The ab==ove link shows the inflation rate every year. You can easily download a spreadsheet showing the inflation rate each year. During Obama's eight years in office 2009-2016, the total inflation adds up to 10.9778%. Total. 1.37% per year divided by eight. I'm not sure with inflation if its additive each year or is you have to multiply it year after year. Compound. But Obama's total inflation for his eight years was 10.9778%. Now for Trumpy's four years in office, the total inflation was 7.6185%. 2017 was 2.13%. 2018 was 2.44%. 2019 was 1.81%. 2020 was 1.23%. Trump averaged 1.9% inflation each year if you divide the 7.6185% by four. Obama's average annual inflation rate was much lower than Trump's annual inflation rate. Another Obama win. See the above link I posted for annual inflation rates.

>
> So again Tommy boy is a LIAR. Obama was not 14.2% as you LIE. It was only 10.9778%. And Trump's was not 5.6% as you LIE. It was 7.6185%. LIAR LIAR Tommy boy, pants on fire.
>
> Tommy boy, now might be the time I should recommend you stop responding to my FACTS, with your LIES, and run away and hide your head in a toilet.

You didn't check because it didn't fit you leftist propaganda and you haven't any idea of what investing is and only want to argue. PLEASE talk like this around normal people so that someone will snap that pencil neck of yours and put you in a wheelchair for the rest of your life where you can discover just what the Democrats really think of people. You are a radical leftist for one reason only - you are a moron that has nothing because you ARE nothing and you actually believe that the Democrats would give you something despite 100 years of history showing differently.

[Roger Merriman]

Why would you choose to ride tame stuff like fire roads even if steep on a
MTB it’s frankly dull!

MTB allows one to tackle much more technical climbs/descents and so on,
I’ve just been on a short 14 mile loop on the old workings on the hill
behind, with very soggy land and 1800ft climbing it’s a hard but fun ride,
but also way beyond a Gravel bike, the land is too rocky too steep and too
many hits.

I’ve ridden on sections on the Gravel bike and it’s no fun even in summer
your nursing the bike as you don’t want to rip a sidewall or crack a rim
and so on.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't know what you mean by a "technical climb" 5 mph makes almost nothing "technical" In my experience, you had to TRY to crash a full suspension. The only technical climb I could think of was a slippery 23% climb and you had to stop at the 100 yard top of that to catch your breath. Granted, I could not climb that section on a gravel bike but I could get to within 10 feet of the top before the bike simply didn't have the gears to continue. And you couldn't put any lower gears on a bike like that because it would just lift the front wheel. And if you stood you would lose traction. MTBs are heavier, longer and so have a lot more traction on climbs so they can carry tiny gears.

[Roger Merriman]

Technical would mean more than simply steep, personally would need to be a
climb where line choice is crucial and it’s by no means sure that you’ll
clear it, so maybe heavily rutted, with roots, rock step ups, and so on.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, if you find that sort of riding enjoyable, more power to you. But I prefer to take the easy way up.