The sticker says 022 Ishiwata quadruple butted tubes
greg
to upgrade. I realize that the steel from fifteen years ago isn't the
quality of the alloy combinations available today, but am wondering how
good a steel this was for it's time. Thanks in advance.
Paul Southworth
This was the mainstay of Trek's frames until the mid-1980s or so,
and was used by many Japanese builders as well - sometimes the
bikes are excellent quality. As usual, the tubing doesn't really
tell you how well the frame was made.
022 was a fine tubing - a little heavier than some of the modern
tubings, but the ride will be basically equivalent to the same bike
made with Columbus SL or Reynolds 531. I suspect most of the difference
between 022 and more expensive european tubing was marketing.
I think the prudence of upgrading it depends more on how much you
like the bike, how well it fits you, its condition, your budget,
and what the upgrades entail.
Frame respacing, new wheels, and drivetrain upgrades could make a lot
of sense.
--Paul
Paul Southworth
By the way, if you want to understand the tubing dimensions
of this frame, relative to other popular tubings, there are
some useful graphs online at http://www.desperadocycles.com/
- click on 'The Lowdown of Tubing'.
alex wetmore
$Fe5....@ord-read.news.verio.net>:
http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=internet-bob.10107.1664.eml
has some information that I copied from a Bicycling Magazine article and
lists dimensions for 022 as well.
531 is slightly lighter, but not much. The difference is due to 0.9/0.6/0.9
butts vs 0.8/0.5/0.8. Manufacturers could probably get custom butt profiles
anyway.
I don't have the article here with me, but I remember the tensile strength
of 531 and 022 being just about equal.
I own an older Trek (414 most likely) made of Magny-X which is pretty cheap
stuff, but it is a wonderful bike. Nicely made, handles really well, and I
picked it up pretty affordably.
alex
Michael Edelman
What makes you think the steel isn't of the same "quality"? It's fine
tubing.
The only real difference today is that more bikes are being made from (1)
heat-treated tubing, which allows for thinner tubes, which makes absolutely
no difference to anyone other than racers at the top of the pro ranks and
(2) TiG weldable alloys, which is fine if you like that sort of thing.
I'd be more than happy with a good Reynolds 531 or Ishiwata frame. In fact,
I am ;-)
--
-----------------------------------
Michael Edelman m...@spamcop.net
http://www.foldingkayaks.org
http://www.findascope.com
Heinz Getzler
Ishiwata quad butted tubing was used on bikes in the 350-450 dollar
price range.The tubing was a good grade of tubing for it's intended
use. Our shop carried some Fuji touring bikes that used the tubing. We
never heard any complaints about the frames or tubing. I believe
Columbus was producing a quad butted tubing.. It's hard to tell the
Columbus quad butted tubing was probably a limited oem production run.
Thanks in advance.
Michael Edelman
> ....
> Ishiwata quad butted tubing was used on bikes in the 350-450 dollar
> price range.
And up.
I had a 3Rensho frame made of Ishiwata quad-butted tubing that sold new for about
$1250.
-- mike
Tom Kunich
It is just about as good a tubing as you can get today in the standard
sizes. O22 had all sorts of tricks pulled on it. It had butts top and
bottom and also grooves pulled into it similar to SLX. And although the
Columbus tubing broke often enough that you could generally find a
broken frame in a frame builders shop awaiting repairs, the O22 tubing
didn't seem to fail.
Tom Kunich
news:3BB0E836...@spamcop.net...
> Heinz Getzler wrote:
> > ....
> > Ishiwata quad butted tubing was used on bikes in the 350-450 dollar
> > price range.
>
> And up.
>
> I had a 3Rensho frame made of Ishiwata quad-butted tubing that sold
new for about
> $1250.
The Ishiwata tubing frames weren't selling well in the USA because at
the time Columbus was the "hot" tubes and it was hard to sell anything
else. In fact, at the time I believe that the best tubes were made by
True Temper -- a US company that had a very nice process of rolling
tubes from flat stock. This gave them much better control of the quality
of the tubes than extrusions possess.
I wonder which steel tubing companies are still in business.
At one time there were:
2 German companies (Oria? and ?)
3 Italian companies (Columbus was the largest, Deddiacia is new)
1 English company (Reynolds)
1 American company (True Temper)
3 Japanese companies (Tange, Ishiwata and ?)
I understand that Ishiwata is out of the business. I believe that True
Temper is also out of the business.
There is a problem that people tend to buy bicycles made from the latest
"fad" pipes. This puts all of the other manufacturers who make tubing
EVERY BIT AS GOOD, in a very bad sales position. With sales so fad
driven the marketplace isn't a good economic investment for tubing
companies and bicycling is poorer for it.
Bruce Abrams
"Tom Kunich" <tku...@tality.com> wrote in message
news:3bb1dcfe$1...@news.cadence.com...
tubus_nl, import & framebouw
> I wonder which steel tubing companies are still in business.
>
> At one time there were:
>
> 2 German companies (Oria? and ?)
P&P (Poppe and Pothof stainless steel) and Mannesmann
> 3 Italian companies (Columbus was the largest, Deddiacia is new)
Oria is italian (uses Mannesmann)
> 1 English company (Reynolds)
> 1 American company (True Temper)
> 3 Japanese companies (Tange, Ishiwata and ?)
French companies, Vitus and I think Excell?
Falck (with MAnnesmann tubing) was IIRC danish
--
Marten
John Thompson
Ishiwata 022 is a very nice seamless chrome-moly steel tubing. The
gauges are essentially the same as Columbus SL, although the
quad-butting puts a little extra material in places.
--
-John (John.T...@attglobal.net)
Garrison Hilliard
>> 1 English company (Reynolds)
>> 1 American company (True Temper)
>> 3 Japanese companies (Tange, Ishiwata and ?)
Day and Day (Fuji used their tubing), and isn't Ishiwata actually
Taiwanese?
>French companies, Vitus and I think Excell?
>Falck (with MAnnesmann tubing) was IIRC danish
Isn't Falck Italian?
A Muzi
> >Just curious about the tube quality in my mid 80's road bike that I wish
> >to upgrade. I realize that the steel from fifteen years ago isn't the
> >quality of the alloy combinations available today, but am wondering how
> >good a steel this was for it's time. Thanks in advance.
>
> This was the mainstay of Trek's frames until the mid-1980s or so,
> and was used by many Japanese builders as well - sometimes the
> bikes are excellent quality. As usual, the tubing doesn't really
> tell you how well the frame was made.
>
> 022 was a fine tubing - a little heavier than some of the modern
> tubings, but the ride will be basically equivalent to the same bike
> made with Columbus SL or Reynolds 531. I suspect most of the difference
> between 022 and more expensive european tubing was marketing.
>
> I think the prudence of upgrading it depends more on how much you
> like the bike, how well it fits you, its condition, your budget,
> and what the upgrades entail.
>
> Frame respacing, new wheels, and drivetrain upgrades could make a lot
> of sense.
I am intimately familiar with Ishiwata and their products, having been in the
factory a few times, spec'd many bikes with their steel and built with it. I
still use Ishiwata tube for frame repair.
The material is virtually identical to Columbus SP/SL/SLX. The top range of
tubes were seamles double butted and the finish quality [as delivered to the
builder] was much higher than Columbus. The tubing gauge of the 022 is
0.9/0.6mm, exatcly the same as Columbus SP. It's called "022" because the frame
tube set weighs 2.2 kilos. The same material drawn thinner to 0.8/0.5mm is
called "019" because it weighs 1.9 kilos, just like Columbus SL. Many
builders, then and now, mix gauges so a small frame might be all 019 but a 56
would have 022 chainstays and downtube for example.
Paul is correct about the influence of marketing. Trek in the late '70s built
three racing frames, one with Ishiwata, one Reynolds 531 and one Columbus.
Geometry and weight were identical. The prices were unreasonably different
because of the cachet of Italian tubing, making the Ishiwata frame the best
value. Marketing took over later as the Ishiwata was dropped completely. With
the advent of aluminum, the currency crash and the Japanese depression,
Ishiwata closed the doors in the early '90s.
--
Yellow Jersey, Ltd
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Paul Southworth
A Muzi <am...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>The tubing gauge of the 022 is
>0.9/0.6mm, exatcly the same as Columbus SP. It's called "022" because the frame
>tube set weighs 2.2 kilos. The same material drawn thinner to 0.8/0.5mm is
>called "019" because it weighs 1.9 kilos, just like Columbus SL.
Hmm, I thought SL/SLX was .9/.6 (like True Temper RC2 and Ishiwata 022)
and SP was 1.0/.7
I thought Columbus didn't have a .8/.5 tubeset, selling KL (.7/.5)
instead. Scary stuff that.
Anyone have a spec book?
--Paul
A Muzi
> > Just curious about the tube quality in my mid 80's road bike that I wish
> > to upgrade. I realize that the steel from fifteen years ago isn't the
> > quality of the alloy combinations available today, but am wondering how
> > good a steel this was for it's time.
>
> Ishiwata quad butted tubing was used on bikes in the 350-450 dollar
> price range.The tubing was a good grade of tubing for it's intended
> use. Our shop carried some Fuji touring bikes that used the tubing. We
> never heard any complaints about the frames or tubing. I believe
> Columbus was producing a quad butted tubing.. It's hard to tell the
> Columbus quad butted tubing was probably a limited oem production run.
> Thanks in advance.
"Quad Butted" and "Triple Butted" are double butted tubes where the ends are
asymmetric. Instead of being drawn 0.8 - 0.5 - 0.8 a triple butted is 0.8 - 0.5 -
0.7 and the quad is like that but with a longer transition area. No real
performance difference, just a miniscule tweak of the dimensions driven by
marketing. Nothing wrong with "quad" tubes but the implication of being "twice as
good" as double butted would be untrue.
A Muzi
>
> > I wonder which steel tubing companies are still in business.
> >
> > At one time there were:
> >
> > 2 German companies (Oria? and ?)
>
> P&P (Poppe and Pothof stainless steel) and Mannesmann
>
> > 3 Italian companies (Columbus was the largest, Deddiacia is new)
>
> Oria is italian (uses Mannesmann)
>
> > 1 English company (Reynolds)
> > 1 American company (True Temper)
> > 3 Japanese companies (Tange, Ishiwata and ?)
>
> French companies, Vitus and I think Excell?
> Falck (with MAnnesmann tubing) was IIRC danish
> --
> Marten
Who knows anything about Day&Day tubes?
A Muzi
>
> >> 1 English company (Reynolds)
> >> 1 American company (True Temper)
> >> 3 Japanese companies (Tange, Ishiwata and ?)
>
> Day and Day (Fuji used their tubing), and isn't Ishiwata actually
> Taiwanese?
Absolutely not. I have been there it's (was) north of Tokyo.
>
>
> >French companies, Vitus and I think Excell?
> >Falck (with MAnnesmann tubing) was IIRC danish
>
> Isn't Falck Italian?
Yes.
And Miyata drew their own tubes. Does that count?