Bending a pedal

[Frank Krygowski]

Since we're desperately short of technical discussions here:

Our folding Bike Fridays have flown in their suitcases to Europe
multiple times, to Florida and Oregon and other places, and have
traveled on dozens of car vacations. For those uses, quick and compact
folding was not a priority. Good thing, because these New World Tourists
definitely prioritize ride quality over quick compact folds.

Our use of the bikes has now changed. They're being used for
at-least-weekly trips to visit grandkids, where they must fit in the car
behind the back seats. It's possible, but not easy. I determined that
one obstacle was the pedals, which stick out enough to make one bike
interfere with packing the other.

My solution was these removable pedals:
https://road.cc/content/review/142188-mks-urban-platform-ezy-pedals-steel-half-clip
although with full plastic toe clips and straps. They make the folded
bike's package much narrower, so fitting everything in the car is much
easier.

But on my wife's first ride today, she was having trouble flipping the
pedal up to get her foot in the toe clip. Based on experience with the
Lyotard Model 23s that originated this design, if the back tab were bent
downward a bit, she'd have a much easier time.

But the Lyotards are steel. These are cast aluminum, and I have no idea
what alloy or how much ductility it has.

Any thoughts on the possibility of successfully bending that back tab
down, maybe 30 degrees?

(Yeah, I should probably just buy a couple Bromptons...)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

From your link I could not figure out what was so special about these pedals. Then I got to the EZY part. Quick change pedals. Apparently MKS has two different, incompatible, models. EZY and EZY Superior. Apparently they learned something bad from the first iteration. This EZY system. Is it similar to an air compressor attachment point? Pull the knurled circle back and the pedal axle can pull out?

As for your tab on the bottom of the pedals, find an aluminum welder and have him add some aluminum onto the tab and make it longer and stick out more. No bending the tab and maybe cracking it.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 22:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>I determined that
>one obstacle was the pedals, which stick out enough to make one bike
>interfere with packing the other.

Steel and aluminum pedals are nice, but plastic is cheaper and unlike
steel or aluminum, it doesn't scratch what it touches. I recall
mentioning these Sunlite 67302 folding pedals in the distant past:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Sunlite%2067302%20folding%20pedals/index.html>
However, they're not very durable. This was caused by me smashing
into a concrete curb:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/Resin-Pedal.jpg>

Looks like they're still available:
<https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Folding-Pedals-9-16/dp/B0013GAR6M>
More:
<https://www.target.com/p/sunlite-folding-city-pedals-9-16in-black/-/A-82203745>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Lou Holtman]

That is not a smart idea, bending thick casted aluminum. Why can't you remove your beloved Lyotard pedals?

Lou

[AMuzi]

Right rick of cracking the plate is there.

A bolt sticking out the back works well, simple & quick.
There are pretty ones but just a 5mm bolt 20mm long does the
same thing:

https://f.eu1.jwwb.nl/public/w/c/s/temp-tfemsekqdnagoejmlbxw/lvdnhr/IMG_4058.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

On 7/26/2022 1:23 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 22:11:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I determined that
>> one obstacle was the pedals, which stick out enough to make one bike
>> interfere with packing the other.
>
> Steel and aluminum pedals are nice, but plastic is cheaper and unlike
> steel or aluminum, it doesn't scratch what it touches. I recall
> mentioning these Sunlite 67302 folding pedals in the distant past:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Sunlite%2067302%20folding%20pedals/index.html>
> However, they're not very durable. This was caused by me smashing
> into a concrete curb:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/misc/Resin-Pedal.jpg>
>
> Looks like they're still available:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Folding-Pedals-9-16/dp/B0013GAR6M>
> More:
> <https://www.target.com/p/sunlite-folding-city-pedals-9-16in-black/-/A-82203745>
>

I've never seen one of those which could take toeclips
without extensive modification. Foldinga toeclip pedal
doesn't give as narrow a package profile either.

[Tom Kunich]

Hasn't Frank made it clear that he prefers freewheel 5 speed bikes with one inch thick chains to avoid the necessity of lifting a wrench? He is a mechanical engineer and complaining about how difficult it is to fold a BROMPTON? That should certainly give you a clue as to why he won't simply remove the pedals - - why that might wear out the pedal threads.

[Tom Kunich]

Jeff who doesn't ride bicycles is suggesting changes to a bicycle. This is like his claim to have an EE degree but has never worked on anything but ham radios and repaired stock computers and printers, then denying that the entries on my resume are within my capacities.

[Frank Krygowski]

It's very similar to an air line quick connect. In addition to the axial
sliding motion, there's a twisting motion of the collar. It works very
well.

> As for your tab on the bottom of the pedals, find an aluminum welder and have him add some aluminum onto the tab and make it longer and stick out more. No bending the tab and maybe cracking it.

I've thought about adding something on, one way or another. (Andrew had
a similar suggestion.) On one set of pedals I have a legacy product
called "Toe Flips" that make standard pedals as easy to enter as the
Lyotards. Other such accessories still exist.

But about welding to these pedals, I figure any welding will happen if
and only if my bending causes a crack. I'd rather reshape these first,
and repair resulting cracks if necessary.

I've done a fair amount of steel welding, using oxy-acetylene, or arc,
or flux core. I don't have the equipment for really welding aluminum. I
do have some filler rods that claim to enable low temperature aluminum
welds (really, more like brazing) but my results have been mixed. Some
parts have done well, others held for a long time, but then failed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/26/2022 10:01 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> Hasn't Frank made it clear that he prefers freewheel 5 speed bikes with one inch thick chains to avoid the necessity of lifting a wrench? He is a mechanical engineer and complaining about how difficult it is to fold a BROMPTON?

<sigh> No, Tom, that's roughly the opposite of what I was implying.

Your astonishing lack of reading comprehension is on display yet again.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

The Lyotards have been removed whenever the Fridays have been packed
into their travel cases for airline flights, so of course I can do that
when necessary.

But your question could also be asked about, say, quick release axles on
a road bike. "Why not just use axle nuts and a wrench?"

I'm interested in solutions that take less time and require no tools.
These detachable pedals achieve that. Their quick release works very well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I gave up on aluminum braze- too many alloys, complex
problem. It's used in factory settings with success, often
inductive heat setup or oven process but they deal with a
known allow and a repeatable setup.

[Lou Holtman]

You have quick release axles?

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

Oops. I missed the part about plastic toe clips in the original
question. The MKS Urban Platform EZY Pedals in the original posting:
<https://road.cc/content/review/142188-mks-urban-platform-ezy-pedals-steel-half-clip>
involve a quick-release mechanism:
<https://www.tracksupermarket.com/pedals/mks-urban-platform-pedals.html>
I was proposing folding pedals as an alternative solution to the
problem of fitting two Bike Friday folding bicycles in the vehicle.
However, if toe clips are a requirement, then folding pedals probably
will not work.

An easy way to make toe clips work on a hinged pedal is to drill a
common cabinet hinge for the same two hole spacing as the two toe clip
mounting holes and add some kind of locking mechanism. When the
pedals are folded, the toe clips could be either rotated downward and
out of the way, or disconnected by removing the hinge pin(s). Patent
pending.

[AMuzi]

Many paths to victory of course but the MKS quick coupler is
the logical choice with toeclips.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 07:05:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff who doesn't ride bicycles is suggesting changes to a bicycle. This is like his claim to have an EE degree but has never worked on anything but ham radios and repaired stock computers and printers, then denying that the entries on my resume are within my capacities.

Are you still not getting enough attention? Do you expect everyone
(including me) to interrupt a genuine tech discussion and follow you
into the wilderness of off topic rambling, character assassination,
and political diatribes? I guess you expect me, and perhaps others,
to itemize your "capacities" and see how well they agree with your
resume. Sure. No problem. The average volume of the male body is
about 87 liters using the Archimedes method of capturing the overflow
from a bath tub. 87 liters is your approximate capacity.

[Roger Merriman]

I guess the question is what is the worse that happens if it snaps!

It’s also possible that your wife might get on the pedal on a 2nd try?

Other could be folding pedals such as Brompton and others.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

Why not just install folding pedals?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

O.K. we got that.... Frank likes 5 speed and Tommy likes Garmin. The
difference seems to be that while Frank can operate his 5 speed, Tommy
Boy, (the electronic genus) can't operate his Garmin.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Because toeclips.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I'm pretty sure Frank has said his tandem is a 9 speed cassette. Triple crank. And Frank's other single bikes I don't think are 5 speed freewheel either. My memory could be wrong. But Frank's anti modern technology does not go back to the 1970s or 1960s bike tech. Downtube and barend shifters were widely used with 6 and 7 speed freewheels and cassettes too.

[John B.]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 11:48:45 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 07:05:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Jeff who doesn't ride bicycles is suggesting changes to a bicycle. This is like his claim to have an EE degree but has never worked on anything but ham radios and repaired stock computers and printers, then denying that the entries on my resume are within my capacities.
>
>Are you still not getting enough attention? Do you expect everyone
>(including me) to interrupt a genuine tech discussion and follow you
>into the wilderness of off topic rambling, character assassination,
>and political diatribes? I guess you expect me, and perhaps others,
>to itemize your "capacities" and see how well they agree with your
>resume. Sure. No problem. The average volume of the male body is
>about 87 liters using the Archimedes method of capturing the overflow
>from a bath tub. 87 liters is your approximate capacity.

Hey Jeff...

I'm currently reading a book by Daniel Silva and in it one of the main
characters says,
"I'm an old man. I've spent my entire life telling lies. To me, lies
are more comfortable then the truth."

It leads one to think that perhaps Daniel knew old Tommy as the
description fits him so well.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Somehow I had the idea that Frank was talking about limited or casual
cycling while visiting Grand Kids. If so then are toe clips really
necessary?

My neighbor does his morning ride... usually an hour or so - with flat
pedals and sandals - what you probably call "flip-flops".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, I was simply repeating what Tommy wrote (:-)
After all we all know that Tommy Boy speaks nothing but the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth....... don't we?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:56:09 PM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:11:43 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> >
> > O.K. we got that.... Frank likes 5 speed and Tommy likes Garmin. The
> > difference seems to be that while Frank can operate his 5 speed, Tommy
> > Boy, (the electronic genus) can't operate his Garmin.

True.

> I'm pretty sure Frank has said his tandem is a 9 speed cassette. Triple crank.

The tandem has a six speed freewheel on a Phil hub. Triple TA cranks.

> And Frank's other single bikes I don't think are 5 speed freewheel either.

Two bikes have 5 speeds in the rear. One has 9. One has 7. One has three, internal, courtesy of
Sturmey Archer. One more, in sort of deep storage, has... I forget. Maybe 5?

- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

I have some very similar (but not quick release) MKS pedals. I broke
the tab off the right pedal and did not notice any extra difficulty in
flipping the pedal, which may confirm your experience that the tabs
don't do much. I doubt very much that the tab can be bent much without
breaking.

Assuming welding or brazing aluminum is not a practical option, you
might consider cyanoacrylate glue. I used some last year as part of a
ladder leveler install, and the glue provided was much grabbier and
confidence-inspiring than the usual "superglue". I'm sorry I don't know
what product to order, but they are out there. For non-safety and
non-structural applications they might be just the ticket.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:08:50 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 18:53:07 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 7/26/2022 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>
> >> Why not just install folding pedals?
> >>
> >Because toeclips.

Exactly.

> Somehow I had the idea that Frank was talking about limited or casual
> cycling while visiting Grand Kids. If so then are toe clips really
> necessary?

Not absolutely., but I really like having them. The Friday still gets used for rides
without grandkids, and for those I definitely want the toe clips. And the older kid and I
have done off road single track - he on his mountain bike, me on the folding bike. I
definitely prefer toe clips for that stuff.

And one weird detail - these platform pedals are one-sided. Toe clips make sure
we're pedaling on the proper side.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:55:52 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> >
> > Any thoughts on the possibility of successfully bending that back tab
> > down, maybe 30 degrees?
> I have some very similar (but not quick release) MKS pedals. I broke
> the tab off the right pedal and did not notice any extra difficulty in
> flipping the pedal, which may confirm your experience that the tabs
> don't do much. I doubt very much that the tab can be bent much without
> breaking.

Can you tell me more about breaking the tab off the pedal? Was that an
accident, or was there was some reason you didn't want it there?

If you broke it off deliberately by just bending it, you might have the experience
I need!

- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:55:52 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on the possibility of successfully bending that back tab
>> > down, maybe 30 degrees?
>> I have some very similar (but not quick release) MKS pedals. I broke
>> the tab off the right pedal and did not notice any extra difficulty in
>> flipping the pedal, which may confirm your experience that the tabs
>> don't do much. I doubt very much that the tab can be bent much without
>> breaking.
>
> Can you tell me more about breaking the tab off the pedal? Was that an
> accident, or was there was some reason you didn't want it there?

It was an accident, ran it into a telephone pole. No reflection on MKS
manufacturing standards.

> If you broke it off deliberately by just bending it, you might have
> the experience
> I need!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

--

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/27/2022 2:56 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 9:55:52 PM UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts on the possibility of successfully bending that back tab
>>>> down, maybe 30 degrees?
>>> I have some very similar (but not quick release) MKS pedals. I broke
>>> the tab off the right pedal and did not notice any extra difficulty in
>>> flipping the pedal, which may confirm your experience that the tabs
>>> don't do much. I doubt very much that the tab can be bent much without
>>> breaking.
>>
>> Can you tell me more about breaking the tab off the pedal? Was that an
>> accident, or was there was some reason you didn't want it there?
>
> It was an accident, ran it into a telephone pole. No reflection on MKS
> manufacturing standards.

Yesterday I looked up the ductility of a bunch of aluminum die casting
alloys. Ductilities were really low, ~3% IIRC. That gives me no
confidence in the bending project.

I found info on YouTube and elsewhere recommending bending aluminum hot,
gauging the appropriate temperature using candle soot or a splinter of
wood. But all the info seemed to be regarding bending wrought alloys,
not casting alloys. I'd also worry about heating the tab sufficiently
while protecting bearings, etc. from the heat.

Still thinking...


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

IIRC the MKS model you have is made with a thixoform ('melt
forge') body and plates punched from sheet like this, right?

http://www.yellowjersey.org/MKS_TECH.JPG

There are one-piece MKS models but not many.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 5:27:42 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote

> IIRC the MKS model you have is made with a thixoform ('melt
> forge') body and plates punched from sheet like this, right?
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/MKS_TECH.JPG
>
> There are one-piece MKS models but not many.

No, this looks different. Again,
https://road.cc/content/review/142188-mks-urban-platform-ezy-pedals-steel-half-clip

I don't know how to visually tell thixoforming from ordinary die casting. I've been assuming
these are die cast. They appear to be one piece. It looks like the die's major parting line was
horizontal. I can see evidence of five injection ports on the underside.

The tab I'd like to bend down has an integral stiffening rib or buttress underneath - that is, it's not formed
from flat plate. I notice, though, that the pedal's surfaces are a bit rougher than what I'm used to for
die casting.

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Thixoform is a type of die casting and that pedal tab will
be brittle and prone to cracking with even slight bending.

[Tom Kunich]

I've had all of those and still have some plastic toe clips i used on them around and never had a second's problem from them other than Look pedals were so much more efficient. But most bicycle accidents are from people not getting their feet out of clipless pedals at stop lights.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 7/28/2022 12:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> But most bicycle accidents are from people not getting their feet out of clipless pedals at stop lights.

"... most bicycle accidents ..."? Really? Wow.

No reason to ask "Got data?" We can predict the answer - or rather the
deflection.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I take more exception with our resident genius/idiot Tommy thinking falling over at a stop light is an accident. I call it falling over. Kind of like when you cut yourself or tear your skin at home and put on a Band Aid. I don't call that medical care or emergency. I call it putting on a Band Aid.