Tiagra shifter problem!

[Phillip Potter]

Hello all,

I have a 2001 Specialized Allez with a Tiagra rear (right hand)
shifter that has stopped working correctly. When I push on the
upshift lever (small one), both levers move. With come digital
contortion I have been able to hold the front shifter with my middle
finger and push the rear shifter with my index finger to get the
shift...

While searching on the internet I found that this may be the result of
a broken spring in the bowels of this shifter, but wonder if anyone
here can substantiate this or set me straight?

If the spring is broken, I am under the impression that it means the
end of the shifter as I know it... argh! I could be forced to do
something I don't want to do... buy another bike. This Allez has been
my buddy for over a decade and has thousands of miles on it, so I am
not thrilled to see it go.

Thanks for anything you can suggest...

Phil_in_CA

[m-gineering]

get a can of your favorite solvent/lubricant and spray the sh@t out of
the innards. If that doesn't work toss it
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree about the solvent treatment. That's the standard first step,
and it seems to usually work. I've successfully done that at least
twice for various friends. Second most common problem seems to be
near-broken cables, and replacing one usually isn't very difficult.

But I wouldn't toss the shifter if those steps didn't work, and I
certainly wouldn't junk the bike. I don't know if this is still good,
but here's a link to getting them repaired:
http://john-s-allen.com/blog/?p=333

And you could always search for used replacements.

If it were mine and the lube or cable tricks didn't work, I'd probably
start disassembling it, figuring it would be interesting, there's a
chance I could fix it, and there's little to lose. If I failed, I'd get
a used one. Or switch to bar-end shifters, of course.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Phillip Potter schreef:

Buying a new bike is a bit dramatic don't you think? If a shifter is
broken and not repairable replace it. New or with a used one.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Op 3-1-2012 21:20, Frank Krygowski schreef:

>
> If it were mine and the lube or cable tricks didn't work, I'd probably
> start disassembling it, figuring it would be interesting, there's a
> chance I could fix it, and there's little to lose.

Good luck. Friend spent three frustrating evenings trying to put a
Ultegra 9 speed shifter back together. He finally managed it, but a few
weeks later it was broken again. Never do it again he said. He got a
cheap used one. Sure it can be entertaining but the succesrate is very low.

On the other hand for my refurbishing project of my Litespeed I took
apart, cleaned, relubed and put back together a Campy 10 speed Ergo
shifter in one hour and pretty straightforward. Good as new. Tomorrow I
do the other one.

<https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/OpknapbeurtLitespeedClassic>


Lou

[Phil_in_CA]

Thanks, Marten, Frank, and Lou,

First, I should say that I was doubtful that I could get a shifter (or
a set) to replace mine, but after I posted (and before I tried
Marten's suggestion of spaying the heck out of it) I got on ePay to
find that there are indeed replacements available! In the past, when
I had an old Cannondale, parts were hard to find, so I "assumed" that
that would be the case now... wrong!

Any way, I did a bit of dis-assembly and sprayed some Tri-flow into
it. I worked the levers a bunch and it did fix it! Maybe I dripped
some CytoMax Go Grape drink in there or something.... Good news is it
works again.

I might go back to ePay and get a replacement set for the eventual
failure that was most likely foreshadowed by this malfunction. Money
in the bank...

Thanks for your replies, and may you have the wind to your back in
2012!

Happy riding,
Phil

[Lou Holtman]

Op 3-1-2012 22:04, Phil_in_CA schreef:

Good to hear.

Lou

[AMuzi]

Entirely different universes; Ergo and 'other'.

Campagnolo Ergo are quick to rebuild, parts are cheap and
available everywhere. They're just like new with a rebuild
every few thousand miles.

Bill Cotton notwithstanding:
http://www.billcotton.com/sti_shifter_repair.htm

We lesser humans just stay the heck out of STi shifters.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[James]

I had the same success! And you get faster once you see how simply they
are.

--
JS.

[Lou Holtman]

James schreef:

Cleaning and relubing was the most time consuming part. Nothing was
broken or worn out. Reassembling took 10 minutes.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Phil_in_CA wrote:
> Thanks, Marten, Frank, and Lou,
>
> First, I should say that I was doubtful that I could get a shifter (or
> a set) to replace mine, but after I posted (and before I tried
> Marten's suggestion of spaying the heck out of it) I got on ePay to
> find that there are indeed replacements available! In the past, when
> I had an old Cannondale, parts were hard to find, so I "assumed" that
> that would be the case now... wrong!
>
> Any way, I did a bit of dis-assembly and sprayed some Tri-flow into
> it. I worked the levers a bunch and it did fix it! Maybe I dripped
> some CytoMax Go Grape drink in there or something.... Good news is it
> works again.

Excellent! Glad it's worked for you.

Next step may be to change your cables now, if you haven't done it for a
year or two, to stop the 2nd most common cause of problems.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[BobC]

My aged Scott MTB has early shimano shifters - the centre bolt (holding
all together) had come adrift allowing the end of one of the springs to
become dislodged. I foolishly disassembled the unit without taking
photos and sketches of what went where. Luckily, I had a whole Sunday
afternoon to waste working out how to put it back together. It is still
OK.

--
BobC

[Chalo]

Phillip Potter wrote:
>
> I have a 2001 Specialized Allez with a Tiagra rear (right hand)
> shifter that has stopped working correctly.  When I push on the
> upshift lever (small one), both levers move.  With come digital
> contortion I have been able to hold the front shifter with my middle
> finger and push the rear shifter with my index finger to get the
> shift...

Problem: brifters.

Solution: something else.

This is not hard!

I watched my boss fiddling around with a broken-off cable button in
some expensive bullshitty Shimano brifters today for a long, long
time. I have done it many times myself, both with and occasionally
without success. I just can't see the point in owning such crap.
They break *much* earlier and *much* more often than all other
alternatives, while costing more. They can't be repaired economically
even by skilled cycle mechanics. And for what? Just so you don't
have to reach for the bar end or top? What kind of useless tool do
you have to be?

It makes me think of David Cross's spiel about electric scissors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtrI53k4WZM

Chalo

[James]

On Jan 4, 7:28 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Phillip Potter wrote:
>
> > I have a 2001 Specialized Allez with a Tiagra rear (right hand)
> > shifter that has stopped working correctly.  When I push on the
> > upshift lever (small one), both levers move.  With come digital
> > contortion I have been able to hold the front shifter with my middle
> > finger and push the rear shifter with my index finger to get the
> > shift...
>
> Problem: brifters.
>
> Solution: something else.
>
> This is not hard!
>
> I watched my boss fiddling around with a broken-off cable button in
> some expensive bullshitty Shimano brifters today for a long, long
> time.  I have done it many times myself, both with and occasionally
> without success.  I just can't see the point in owning such crap.
> They break *much* earlier and *much* more often than all other
> alternatives, while costing more.  They can't be repaired economically
> even by skilled cycle mechanics.  And for what?  Just so you don't
> have to reach for the bar end or top?  What kind of useless tool do
> you have to be?
>

I've noticed a few people break cables in Shimano STI levers. I
haven't broken one in my ergo levers, and I don't know anyone who
has. Maybe it's the EH&M ;-)

--
JS.

[andre...@aol.com]

I got tired of using brifters. After a while they would stop working
properly. They seem to have limited durability, especially shimano. I
switched to bar end shifters and have been very happy, although some
of my buddies ask me what kind of ultra modern shifting system do I
have, that they have never seen. Others think that I'm dumb and
mistakenly use triathlon shifters on a road bike. Actually, the
advantage of using bar end shifters is that when you have to do
something to your bars, or put aero bars on the bike, you don't have
to exchange shifters or undo the cables. All you do is loosen the
shifters and move them to the aerobars, or let them hang while you
work on you bars. I ride on my drops most of the time anyways.

[Duane Hebert]

I have bar end shifters on one of my bikes. I like them for when I'm in
the drops but I don't seem to ride there much these days. They work
fine. Only complaint is that they tend to get banged up.

On my other bike I have shimano brifters. I mostly use the hoods now
when I'm riding and these are useful and comfortable.
They're expensive to replace, difficult to work on but I haven't had
problems yet. I've only had to do minor adjustments so far but I only
have ~10,000km on this bike so far.

The first bike is an old Bianchi that requires almost no maintenance and
the second is a 2009 Tarmac. The Tarmac is lighter, faster and more fun
to ride but way more expensive to maintain anyway.

I guess my point is that it's pretty much a choice that you make these
days. Most of the more modern/expensive stuff seems to be less durable
and requires more maintenance.

[Jay Beattie]

In 20 years of riding Shimano brifters, I've broken one cable that I
fixed in about five minutes on the sidewalk in front of the Bike
Gallery in downtown PDX. Hardly interrupted my ride. Yes, I had to
poke around and fish it out, but it was not an epic event.
Perhaps when all my STI goes belly up -- which has yet to happen --
I'll go Ergo or maybe some Flash Gordon Ultegra Di2, but I'm not
giving up brake lever shifting. I love it. I've owned (and still
own) bar ends on various bikes and of course DT shifters for 40+
years, and I don't love them as much -- and believe it or not, no one
sold me on brifters, and I'm not a poseur or a wannabe or tool or any
of those stereotypes you are constantly flogging. I'm a guy who likes
to shift while standing and climbing . . . climbing those things
called "hills" and "mountains." You may remember those from living in
the PNW.

You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40 flush.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Glad to read elsewhere in this thread that you were able to get it
working again. When it does finally die you can be very happy that you
don't have Dura Ace brifters as those are very expensive to replace.
If I want integrated shifting I go Campy |Ergo otherwise it's barend
shifters forme.

Cheers

[David Scheidt]

Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:

:You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40 flush.

Give it up. Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome. the thought of
drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.

--
sig 28

[AMuzi]

When the little frays stick you in the palm through the
lever cover, replace the wire[1]. Ergo fail at the small
capstan in the cable carrier. STi fail where the outer
casing gets kinked just outside the lever body.

[1] Use a standard Campagnolo head gear wire. The new
revisionist Shimano heads are bigger and jam amazingly tight
in Ergo carriers. Wandering Shimano broken wire heads jam
inside STi in various ways but not usually in the carrier.

[James]

LOL ~!

--
JS.

[Lou Holtman]

David Scheidt schreef:

It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with that.

Lou

[James]

It's the way those opinions are expressed that keep me entertained.

--
JS.

[AMuzi]

A local newspaper called me a 'cryptofascist', whatever the
hell that means. Nothing much here gets me riled.

[Kerry Montgomery]

AMuzi wrote:
> James wrote:
>> On 05/01/12 09:58, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> David Scheidt schreef:
>>>> Jay Beattie<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40
>>>>> flush.
>>>>
>>>> Give it up. Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome. the thought
>>>> of drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> sig 28
>>>
>>> It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with
>>> that.
>>
>> It's the way those opinions are expressed that keep me entertained.
>>
>
> A local newspaper called me a 'cryptofascist', whatever the
> hell that means. Nothing much here gets me riled.

Andrew Muzi,
Supposedly means someone who keeps their fascist views or motives secret. If
they're secret, how did the paper know you had those views?
Glad you keep all this in perspective,
Kerry

[andre...@aol.com]

On Jan 4, 9:03 pm, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
> > James wrote:
> >> On 05/01/12 09:58, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> >>> David Scheidt schreef:

> >>>> Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com>  wrote:

>
> >>>>> You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40
> >>>>> flush.
>
> >>>> Give it up.  Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome.  the thought
> >>>> of drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> sig 28
>
> >>> It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with
> >>> that.
>
> >> It's the way those opinions are expressed that keep me entertained.
>
> > A local newspaper called me a 'cryptofascist', whatever the
> > hell that means.  Nothing much here gets me riled.
>
> Andrew Muzi,
> Supposedly means someone who keeps their fascist views or motives secret. If
> they're secret, how did the paper know you had those views?
> Glad you keep all this in perspective,
> Kerry

Probably, one of his employees blew the whistle.

[andre...@aol.com]

On Jan 4, 7:00 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> James wrote:
> > On 05/01/12 09:58, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> >> David Scheidt schreef:

> >>> Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com>  wrote:

>
> >>> :You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40 flush.
>
> >>> Give it up.  Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome.  the thought of
> >>> drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.
>
> >>> --
> >>> sig 28
>
> >> It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with that.
>
> > It's the way those opinions are expressed that keep me entertained.
>
> A local newspaper called me a 'cryptofascist', whatever the
> hell that means.  Nothing much here gets me riled.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
>   <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>   Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Cool!

My step son called me a "f__ktard and I thought that it was a really
cool insult. The other day, my step daughter told me to go "suck and
egg". Being out of the youth mainstream, I love those diggs that sound
really original to me.

I'll add cryptofascist to my vocabulary for when my wife starts to
pick on me about something.

[Ralph Barone]

Probably not quite... I suspect there are two others factors at play here.
1) Chalo is a big boy. I suspect he can break things that most twig-like
bikers couldn't even bend. You break enough seatposts, chains and frames
and you start taking on the mindset that bikes are under-engineered.
2) Chalo works in a bike shop. Nobody brings their bike in to say "Hey,
it's still working great!". They bring it in when it's broken, or worse
yet, broken and unfixable by the owner. In addition, while I will see all
the failures of the five bikes in my house, Chalo will see most of the
failures of thousands of bikes.
So yes, I can excuse him for being a pessimist.

[Frank Krygowski]

Regarding point 2, I'd say the bike shop experience makes him a realist,
rather than a pessimist. Bike shop guys learn what breaks. If he sees
many more STI shifters broken than, say, index thumb shifters, he's got
good reason to say that STI shifters aren't as reliable.

My repair experience is much less than Chalo's, but I've fixed
non-working STI for two friends, and spent time trying to fix a minor
problem for one other person, whose STI frequently required a double hit
to stay shifted onto the lowest cog. I've never been asked to fix any
other type of shift lever.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Michael Press]

In article <1oa8g7p6la4k504cm...@4ax.com>,
John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Electric toothbrush?

The right electric toothbrush is a huge boon.
I have my dentist's diagnoses and commendations
to back it up.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article
<be19c396-a4e2-4b6e...@h12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

I run down tube shifters mostly because I do not want the bother
of two more cable runs on the bars.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article
<32505ee7-9006-4c59...@m7g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

Lou Holtman <lh...@planet.nl> wrote:

> David Scheidt schreef:
> > Jay Beattie <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >
> > :You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40 flush.
> >
> > Give it up. Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome. the thought of
> > drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.
>

> It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with that.

There is something wrong with emotional diatribes against
a method one does not favor.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article <je308l$ct5$1...@dont-email.me>, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
wrote:

> James wrote:
> > On 05/01/12 09:58, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> David Scheidt schreef:
> >>> Jay Beattie<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> :You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40 flush.
> >>>
> >>> Give it up. Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome. the thought of
> >>> drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.
> >>

> >> It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with that.
> >
> > It's the way those opinions are expressed that keep me entertained.
>
> A local newspaper called me a 'cryptofascist', whatever the
> hell that means. Nothing much here gets me riled.

It means you are a Facist but do not openly display the fasces.

--
Michael Press

[Ralph Barone]

I'll defend my use of "pessimist". If say, one out of every 10 STI
shifters develops an incurable disease during the lifetime of the bike, as
an individual, I might consider playing odds like those. However, if you've
sold 1000 bikes with STI shifters, then 100 are coming back for repairs,
which might mean you have to fix one every month. Being in the place where
failures are aggregated can give you a different opinion on acceptable risk
vs just hanging out in the general public.

[James]

Do most bike shop owners share some of his pessimism?

--
JS.

[AMuzi]

It's just work.

As I note to my employees when they bitch about equipment,
if everything worked well and forever, no one would need us.

[Jay Beattie]

On Jan 5, 7:32 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> Ralph Barone wrote:

> > David Scheidt<dsche...@panix.com>  wrote:
> >> Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com>  wrote:

What did you do to fix them -- WD40 flush? I've lost the small screw
that holds the small lever to the brake lever and replaced that. I've
had some loose plastic parts that rattle and the usual gumming up that
goes away with a good flush. Other than that, mine have consistently
worked, and they see more wet weather and road crap that most bikes.

What Chalo probably sees is low end STI -- and I would agree that
sometimes trickle down doesn't quite work, especially when they skimp
on metal. STI also is not failure proof, and it is not as easily
repaired as Ergo. I could live with STI or Ergo, but I couldn't live
without one of them. Some products may be less durable -- or
potentially less durable -- but they are so useful or enjoyable that
you buy them anyway. IMO, brifters fit that discription, as do many
performance products including tires. If you want to lumber around on
a cruiser, skip STI -- buy the flat bar bike with the thumb shifters.
There are tons of them on the market. There are more models of bikes
on the market currently than ever before -- at least since the 60s
when I started paying attention, e.g. http://clevercycles.com/# STI
is not squeezing other products out of the market place, at least not
here in PDX. Go shopping! Keep the economy strong!

-- Jay Beattie.

[thirty-six]

On Jan 6, 3:32 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> Ralph Barone wrote:

> > David Scheidt<dsche...@panix.com>  wrote:
> >> Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com>  wrote:

There'd be more to lose.

[James]

It may well be that STI and Ergo levers are more prone to problems than
some other types. For the average dude, they may not be worth the extra
money, but that decision is theirs.

For me, the pros outweigh the cons. I like Ergo levers.

--
JS.

[Lou Holtman]

On 6 jan, 04:32, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> Ralph Barone wrote:

> > David Scheidt<dsche...@panix.com>  wrote:
> >> Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com>  wrote:

How did you fixed it, couldn't your friends fixed it themselves, after
how many years did these problems occur?

Lou, 20+ years trouble free use of brifters.

[Frank Krygowski]

Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>
>> My repair experience is much less than Chalo's, but I've fixed
>> non-working STI for two friends, and spent time trying to fix a minor
>> problem for one other person, whose STI frequently required a double hit
>> to stay shifted onto the lowest cog. I've never been asked to fix any
>> other type of shift lever.
>
> How did you fixed it, couldn't your friends fixed it themselves, after
> how many years did these problems occur?

The two repairs were just solutions via solvent & lube, but very
different. The first, a friend who'd had health problems, occurred
after his bike was unused for a long while, maybe over two years. The
derailleur wasn't shifting at all in either direction. In that case,
the typical WD-40 spray wasn't helping. We ended up tipping the bike in
various odd positions and really soaking the lever innards while it sat
inverted, etc. It took about two hours, IIRC, to get things shifting.

The second was a friend who bought a new bike with a then-new 9 speed
STI setup, taking delivery the day before leaving on a week-long
organized tour. Her husband installed racks, pedals, etc. the evening
before she was to leave, then she tried a brief test ride and found no
shifting. I didn't do anything brilliant, just lubing mechanisms and
tugging on cables in various ways, but I got it going.

I have also fixed rattling plastic covers for a different person.
That's just a minor aesthetic annoyance.

Incidentally, all those were STI, not Ergo.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Basically, what you're saying is that what's "acceptable" risk varies
from person to person, and that's certainly true. We know there are
guys who will risk dropping out of a race when one of their 18 spokes
breaks, hoping that the aero advantage will pay off. There are other
guys who think anything with less than 36 spokes is a bit too radical
for their pothole commutes.

But the bike shop guy who's dealt with hundreds of wheels in the past
two years can tell you which is more reliable, just like the doctor who
can tell you what he's seen in smokers vs. non-smokers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

I have no experience with brifters, but they must be many times more
complex than the downtube, bar end, and thumb shifters that I use.

I have always liked being able to completely disassemble something,
analyze how it works, clean every piece, re-assemble, tune, and go.
Pouring magic elixer into a black box and sloshing it around to dilute
and disperse whatever dirt and gunk is in there just isn't nearly as
satisfying.

[Jay Beattie]

> satisfying.- Hide quoted text -

Go buy yourself and olde tyme PX10, and you can spend your entire
evening pulling cranks, lubing loose bearings, chasing tiny head
balls around, rebuilding pedals, hubs, freewheels and trying to cope
with odd thread dimensions, tube dimensions, irreplaceable parts,
etc., etc. They came with sew-ups, so you could have the whole gluing
experience. Gratuitously annoy yourself and family -- particularly
when you find that your open tube of Tubasti has mysteriously seeped
into your stamp collection. Start aging tires, softening saddles,
polishing rims and making plastic bar-tape patterns. I liked the
three color checkerboard myself. Drill some holes . . . anywhere.

Most bikes are now plug and play, so the opportunity to break things
down and cleaning every piece is pretty limited -- unless popping in
new cartridge bearings or NOT lubing cables (for Lou) is counted.
Even bar ends and DT shifters are SIS, which is a closed system. I
opened my 520 pedals after years of service only to find that the
factory grease was still green and good. This is why our poor NG has
so little to talk about except for current event and bikes suitable
for the the South Pole.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

People rank criteria variously before they consider data.

For example, Colin Abarth Chapman said the properly designed
racing car falls apart as it crosses the finish line first.
Not a great standard for a milk truck, a taxi or Paris Dakar
but perfectly reasonable for a race car on a track.

[Lou Holtman]

Op 6-1-2012 18:49, Dan O schreef:

> On Jan 6, 9:25 am, Frank Krygowski<frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>>>> My repair experience is much less than Chalo's, but I've fixed
>>>> non-working STI for two friends, and spent time trying to fix a minor
>>>> problem for one other person, whose STI frequently required a double hit
>>>> to stay shifted onto the lowest cog. I've never been asked to fix any
>>>> other type of shift lever.
>>
>>> How did you fixed it, couldn't your friends fixed it themselves, after
>>> how many years did these problems occur?
>>

>> The two repairs were just solutions via solvent& lube, but very

>> different. The first, a friend who'd had health problems, occurred
>> after his bike was unused for a long while, maybe over two years. The
>> derailleur wasn't shifting at all in either direction. In that case,
>> the typical WD-40 spray wasn't helping. We ended up tipping the bike in
>> various odd positions and really soaking the lever innards while it sat
>> inverted, etc. It took about two hours, IIRC, to get things shifting.
>>
>> The second was a friend who bought a new bike with a then-new 9 speed
>> STI setup, taking delivery the day before leaving on a week-long
>> organized tour. Her husband installed racks, pedals, etc. the evening
>> before she was to leave, then she tried a brief test ride and found no
>> shifting. I didn't do anything brilliant, just lubing mechanisms and
>> tugging on cables in various ways, but I got it going.
>>
>> I have also fixed rattling plastic covers for a different person.
>> That's just a minor aesthetic annoyance.
>>
>> Incidentally, all those were STI, not Ergo.
>>
>
> I have no experience with brifters, but they must be many times more
> complex than the downtube, bar end, and thumb shifters that I use.
>
> I have always liked being able to completely disassemble something,
> analyze how it works, clean every piece, re-assemble, tune, and go.

A brifter doesn't have to be much more complicated that a indexed barend
shifter. It only has two levers to perate the thing and has the brake
lever integrated. Much complexity comes from the wish for ultra quick
shifting and low operating forces. Ergo doesn't, well the ones I have.
They can be disassembled very easily within one minute (really) with
only basic tools and if you look at the innards you can see how it works
and you must come to the conclusion that they are not complicated at all.

left Ergo completely disassembled:
<https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/Misc#5694581414071606818>

all the parts cleaned:
<https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/Misc#5694581425490320802>

right Ergo assembled:
<https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/Misc#5694581400001827234>

I simplified the right Ergo by disabling the overshift feature, so I can
leave out a spring, washer, one part isn't prone for breaking anymore,
assembling is even easier and always crisp shifts even if the shifter is
dirty. My LBS tought me to do that. You have to modify the housing a bit.

If you want simple rebuildable brifters you have a choice. Shimano made
another choice and as far as I can see it works pretty well for most
people. The only thing the OP had to do after more than a decade is to
flush it with WD40. Big deal.

Lou

[James]

Ergo levers (Campy) are not particularly complex. A barrel for the
cable and two ratchets, one up, one down. Rapid fire for the MTB is
about as complex.

STI is another matter.

> I have always liked being able to completely disassemble something,
> analyze how it works, clean every piece, re-assemble, tune, and go.

With ergo levers, this is entirely doable.

> Pouring magic elixer into a black box and sloshing it around to dilute
> and disperse whatever dirt and gunk is in there just isn't nearly as
> satisfying.

And messy.

--
JS.

[Duane Hebert]

On 1/6/2012 12:49 PM, Dan O wrote:

<snip>

> I have no experience with brifters, but they must be many times more
> complex than the downtube, bar end, and thumb shifters that I use.
>
> I have always liked being able to completely disassemble something,
> analyze how it works, clean every piece, re-assemble, tune, and go.
> Pouring magic elixer into a black box and sloshing it around to dilute
> and disperse whatever dirt and gunk is in there just isn't nearly as
> satisfying.

There's something to be said for being able to rebuild things but there
is also something to be said for comfort and functionality. As I
mentioned, the old style stuff may last longer and be easier to maintain
but sometime the new stuff works really well. That's about my take on
the brifters.

Brakes and shifters under my hands at all times is pretty cool. Really
useful in the hills. Pretty handy when riding in a group as well.
Nearly everyone in the club have them and I haven't noticed any unusual
fail rates. Most of these guys don't have low end bikes though.

[Tom Ace]

On Jan 6, 11:56 am, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ergo levers (Campy) are not particularly complex.

Just priced as if they were.

Tom Ace

[James]

As most others are.

--
JS.

[Ralph Barone]

While I agree that everyone's appetite for risk differs, that was not the
point I was making. My point is that bike shop employees will actually
experience (vicariously, of course) higher failure rates than the average
bike owner.

I have experienced one burst faucet and one split toilet tank in my house.
Plumbers have to fix that stuff everyday. Guess who's going to be more
cynical about plumbing?

[Dan O]

On Jan 6, 11:56 am, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do they come in 7-speed? I have a project bike...

I'm not a luddite or retrogrouch about it - just cheap (er... poor),
but proud, and thus prone to rationalize the upside of what I have.

> > Pouring magic elixer into a black box and sloshing it around to dilute
> > and disperse whatever dirt and gunk is in there just isn't nearly as
> > satisfying.
>
> And messy.
>

The full disassemble / clean / re-assemble results in (and is
basically the only way to result in) a remarkably clean object of
pride - not a speck of grime - even in the crevices - a component with
no excuse for not working optimally (other than it being f**ked with
by its d**khead owner :-)

[Kerry Montgomery]

"Ralph Barone" <addre...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:260204390347601359.554640address_is-invalid.invalid@shawnews...

Ralph Barone,
Bike shop employees will experience lower failure rates than the average of
bike owners, as some failures will be handled by the owners themselves. Bike
shop employees will experience higher failure counts than the average bike
owner.
Kerry

[Ralph Barone]

OK, I'm close to being understood here. The bike shop employee will see a
lower failure rate PER BIKE (of all the bikes that he could repair). But
the employee will see a higher failure rate in terms of failures per day
than the average user. If all bike mechanics were Mr. Spock, I would
totally agree with you. However, I'm talking about attitudes and
perceptions, and that drags us firmly back into the human realm. I contend
that people who see higher ABSOLUTE numbers of failures tend to form more
pessimistic estimates than lose with less exposure, even if the underlying
failure rates are identical. It's more a psych observation than stats.

I had first hand experience with this when I changed jobs from a field
supervisor to a central support engineer. Suddenly, things that I thought
were rock solid reliable (due to my lower exposure) were failing on a
monthly basis.

PS: If Chalo wants to chime in and say I'm full of shit, I'm willing to
accept that as my cue to shut up.

[Lou Holtman]

Op 7-1-2012 1:09, John B. schreef:

> On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 19:36:24 +0100, Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@usenet.nl> wrote:

>>
>> If you want simple rebuildable brifters you have a choice. Shimano made
>> another choice and as far as I can see it works pretty well for most
>> people. The only thing the OP had to do after more than a decade is to
>> flush it with WD40. Big deal.
>>
>> Lou
>>

> Given that a substantial number of people bring their flat tires to
> the local bike shop for repair as they do not know. nor have the
> tools, to repair them it seem that Shimano may have hit on the correct
> path with the non-reparable STI shifters.
>


Yes, lets face it most people don't (want) to repair a brifter even if
it is repairable like the Ergo's. So the choice Shimano made is
understandable as long as they are reasonably durable. The difference
though is when one breaks and people bring their bike to the LBS they
say 'I try to flush it with WD40 or something and when this doesn't work
you have to buy a new one'. Most people will be pissed.
So for the consumer get informed and make the right choice for your
situation and accept that other people make other choices.
No way Chalo or Frank can talk me out of brifters.
Cyclocross without brifters? Yeah sure, but not me ;-)

Lou

[Chalo]

Ralph Barone wrote:
>
> OK, I'm close to being understood here. The bike shop employee will see a
> lower failure rate PER BIKE (of all the bikes that he could repair). But
> the employee will see a higher failure rate in terms of failures per day
> than the average user. If all bike mechanics were Mr. Spock, I would
> totally agree with you. However, I'm talking about attitudes and
> perceptions, and that drags us firmly back into the human realm. I contend
> that people who see higher ABSOLUTE numbers of failures tend to form more
> pessimistic estimates than lose with less exposure, even if the underlying
> failure rates are identical.  It's more a psych observation than stats.

It's true that I'm about a million times more likely than the average
STI owner to throw up my hands and exclaim, "for cripes' sake not
another one!" Because if you only have one bike and that bike has
STI, then even a worse than normal MTBF is unlikely to test your
patience.

On the other hand, you have to remember I don't only see brifters. I
work on all kinds of other shifters too, and it's the comparative rate
of failure that really makes me detest STI. The only time the
prognosis is that bad for a downtube shifter is when someone has taken
it apart and let pieces get away.

STI: Less reliable, shorter lived, less repairable, less versatile,
heavier, uglier, way more expensive than the alternatives. I should
write their ad copy.

Chalo

[Chalo]

Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Cyclocross without brifters? Yeah sure, but not me ;-)

http://retroshift.com/

Chalo

[Lou Holtman]

Op 7-1-2012 12:28, Chalo schreef:

Interesting/nice. This solution has to compete with Veloce Ergolevers
which are just under 100 euro (complete cableset included):

<http://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p25637_Veloce-Ergopower-Brems--Schaltgriff-2--10-fach-.html>

In my case your solution would lose for various reasons.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> No way Chalo or Frank can talk me out of brifters.

If I say why I don't want brifters, it's not because I'm trying to talk
you out of them!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Chalo]

Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Chalo schreef:
> >
> > Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>
> >> Cyclocross without brifters? Yeah sure, but not me ;-)
> >
> > http://retroshift.com/
>

> Interesting/nice. This solution has to compete with Veloce Ergolevers
> which are just under 100 euro (complete cableset included):
>

> In my case your solution would lose for various reasons.

I haven't tried them. I just know they were made specifically for
cyclocross, to address the shortcomings of brifters in that
application. To me, they sure look like a better and more
straightforward approach to putting shifters on the brake levers than
any brifter to date.

Chalo

[Ralph Barone]

Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ralph Barone wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'm close to being understood here. The bike shop employee will see a
>> lower failure rate PER BIKE (of all the bikes that he could repair). But
>> the employee will see a higher failure rate in terms of failures per day
>> than the average user. If all bike mechanics were Mr. Spock, I would
>> totally agree with you. However, I'm talking about attitudes and
>> perceptions, and that drags us firmly back into the human realm. I contend
>> that people who see higher ABSOLUTE numbers of failures tend to form more
>> pessimistic estimates than lose with less exposure, even if the underlying
>> failure rates are identical. It's more a psych observation than stats.
>
> It's true that I'm about a million times more likely than the average
> STI owner to throw up my hands and exclaim, "for cripes' sake not
> another one!" Because if you only have one bike and that bike has
> STI, then even a worse than normal MTBF is unlikely to test your
> patience.

Which is probably the acid test for most users. My STIs have not caused me
grief incommensurate to the amount of pleasure they have brought me.

> On the other hand, you have to remember I don't only see brifters. I
> work on all kinds of other shifters too, and it's the comparative rate
> of failure that really makes me detest STI. The only time the
> prognosis is that bad for a downtube shifter is when someone has taken
> it apart and let pieces get away.
>
> STI: Less reliable, shorter lived, less repairable, less versatile,
> heavier, uglier, way more expensive than the alternatives. I should
> write their ad copy.
>
> Chalo

MTBF vs desired service life is probably the important metric here.

[Lou Holtman]

Frank Krygowski schreef:

> Lou Holtman wrote:
> >
> > No way Chalo or Frank can talk me out of brifters.
>
> If I say why I don't want brifters, it's not because I'm trying to talk
> you out of them!

It was a joke Frank. Can you tell me why you don't want brifters
Frank? As far as I know because you think they are too complicated and
therefor unreliable, right? Have you ever used them yourself for a
longer period of time? My opinion is based on my own experience using
brifters for more then 20 years without any major problems. I showed
how simple Ergo's are and how easy they are to maintain. Your opinion
is only based on two incidents of two of your famous friends, which
were easily soved btw.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jan 7, 4:40 pm, Lou Holtman <l...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski schreef:
>
> > Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> > > No way Chalo or Frank can talk me out of brifters.
>
> > If I say why I don't want brifters, it's not because I'm trying to talk
> > you out of them!
>
> It was a joke Frank. Can you tell me why you don't want brifters
> Frank? As far as I know because you think they are too complicated and
> therefor unreliable, right?

Well, let's see - since you ask:

First, I have never felt their advantage (shifting without moving my
hands 8") has been very valuable for me. My riding just doesn't
require that.

Second, I'm a bit bothered when any component gets too picky, so to
speak - in this case, when one shifter needs (almost) exactly the
proper derailleur, proper type of brake, proper cog spacing, proper
chain. This is why I still have friction shifting on the bikes I ride
most. And with my index barcons or thumb shifters, I always have the
friction option if needed, unlike STI.

Third is probably the complication you mention. Philosophically, I
think a bike should be simple. Practically, I sometimes take off and
ride very long distances on my bike. And on such rides, I've had to
fix occasional mechanical problems. I prefer that everything on my
bike that might reasonably fail could be fixed using tools I'd
reasonably carry. STI fails that criterion.

Fourth is the reliability you mention. Brifters do seem to fail more
often than most things on bikes. Understand, I'm not claiming they
break even once per year; just more often than other mechanisms, and
FAR more often than other shifters. (But FWIW, when my daughter, wife
and I rode coast to coast, my daughter had STI on her bike. I never
said "I'm making you change shifters." )

Fifth, I've got direct pull cantilevers on one bike. I don't want to
have to use a kludge like Travel Agents to get the brakes to work with
brifters.

Sixth, I prefer less expensive solutions. Given their lack of
advantage for my riding, I don't see a reason to spend that money.

> Have you ever used them yourself for a longer period of time?

Nope, for the reasons listed above.

> My opinion is based on my own experience using
> brifters for more then 20 years without any major problems. I showed
> how simple Ergo's are and how easy they are to maintain. Your opinion

> is only based on two incidents of two of your famous friends...,

Not really. I still remember the day one of my riding friends (a
master bike mechanic) showed up on a ride with the first STI we'd ever
seen. I tried them out, and immediately thought "I don't need these"
and "Man, they must be complicated." He told me they were
unrepairable, and that pretty much killed the deal for me. This was
long before the repair incidents. (And BTW, I have at least one
friend who killed her STI shifter in a crash.)

>... which were easily soved btw.

Regarding the ease of fixing my friends' STI, I'll just note that it
was difficult enough that the owners phoned me after they and their
spouse (in one case) or other friend (in the other case) failed to fix
theirs. That moved the repair out of the "easy" column, in their
minds. And one took quite a while of fussing with solvent; it was a
long way from "Squirt some WD-40 and it'll be fine."

I understand they work great for many people, and that Ergo (vs. STI)
may work even better. Still, just as I won't try to get you to give
up brifters, please don't try to make me use them. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 1/5/2012 8:35 AM, andre...@aol.com wrote:
> On Jan 4, 7:00 pm, AMuzi<a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> On 05/01/12 09:58, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>
>>>> David Scheidt schreef:

>>>>> Jay Beattie<jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> :You will also note that the OP solved his problems with a WD40 flush.
>>
>>>>> Give it up. Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome. the thought of
>>>>> drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.
>>

>>>>> --
>>>>> sig 28
>>
>>>> It is just Chalo's opinion, no more no less. Nothing wrong with that.
>>
>>> It's the way those opinions are expressed that keep me entertained.
>>
>> A local newspaper called me a 'cryptofascist', whatever the
>> hell that means. Nothing much here gets me riled.

>>
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

> Cool!
>
> My step son called me a "f__ktard and I thought that it was a really
> cool insult. The other day, my step daughter told me to go "suck and
> egg". Being out of the youth mainstream, I love those diggs that sound
> really original to me.
>
> I'll add cryptofascist to my vocabulary for when my wife starts to
> pick on me about something.

My favorite was overhearing a mother call her son a "son-of-a-bitch".

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 1/6/2012 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> People rank criteria variously before they consider data.
>
> For example, Colin Abarth Chapman said the properly designed racing car
> falls apart as it crosses the finish line first. Not a great standard
> for a milk truck, a taxi or Paris Dakar but perfectly reasonable for a
> race car on a track.
>

Does Jochen Rindt agree?

[Curtis]

>>>>>> Give it up. Chalo has drop bar derangement syndrome. the thought of
>>>>>> drop bars turns him into a gibbering lunatic.

Interesting.

Getting curious, profile wise. What does he ride?

Curtis

[Jay Beattie]

On Jan 7, 9:18 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 7, 4:40 pm, Lou Holtman <l...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> > Frank Krygowski schreef:
>
> > > Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> > > > No way Chalo or Frank can talk me out of brifters.
>
> > > If I say why I don't want brifters, it's not because I'm trying to talk
> > > you out of them!
>
> > It was a joke Frank. Can you tell me why you don't want brifters
> > Frank? As far as I know because you think they are too complicated and
> > therefor unreliable, right?
>
> Well, let's see - since you ask:
>
> First, I have never felt their advantage (shifting without moving my
> hands 8") has been very valuable for me.  My riding just doesn't
> require that.

After saying this, there is really nothing else to say -- if you don't
think they are valuable, there is no reason to own them. I raced for
decades without them and bought my first pair grudgingly due to the
expense, but it was one of those equipment changes that made a huge
performance difference -- and that suited my riding style even when
not racing. Mine have never failed, and the only down side has been
expense, which I agree is ridiculous for Ultegra and above. But on a
new, complete bike, the expense is almost invisible -- although on low
end bikes, I question their benefit because that is where reliability
issues really come in.

> Regarding the ease of fixing my friends' STI, I'll just note that it
> was difficult enough that the owners phoned me after they and their
> spouse (in one case) or other friend (in the other case) failed to fix
> theirs.  That moved the repair out of the "easy" column, in their
> minds.  And one took quite a while of fussing with solvent; it was a
> long way from "Squirt some WD-40 and it'll be fine."

Then these people ought to consider other equipment options -- or gain
some minimal mechanical skill, which is incredibly easy due to the
internet. Tool-less repair and prudent application of WD 40 does not
strike me as difficult, but if the owner does perceive that as
difficult, the owner needs different equipment -- and should also
consider belt drive SS.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Ace]

See http://chalo.org

Tom Ace

[Jay Beattie]

I don't know why he hasn't gotten into custom building of components
or frames -- apart from the dog trailers. I know this guy who is a
bike mechanic and saw a need for better tools and started building
them himself. He is now making the dishing tools used by DT, among
other clever tools. Nice guy. http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/323129715/
There is a market for this stuff. Everyone should do what they want if
it pays the bills, but good machinists shouldn't be fixing kids bikes,
IMO, but maybe I didn't get the point of Waldens Pond.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Curtis]

"Tom Ace" wrote

> Interesting.
>
> Getting curious, profile wise. What does he ride?

See http://chalo.org

"Jay Beattie" wrote

I don't know why he hasn't gotten into custom building of components

or frames -- apart from the dog trailers. <snip>

There's a few of us out here, but most cyclists are little guys by
comparison. For the record, he's taller, I'm at this point much heavier,
(hoping to fix that part). That's why I went for a tandem rear wheel on my
new cruiser, as I know between weight and strength, I am punishing my bike.

Curtis

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

On 1/8/2012 1:07 PM, Curtis wrote:
> "Tom Ace" wrote
>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Getting curious, profile wise. What does he ride?
>
> See http://chalo.org
>

On this page, the red Cannondale on the bottom is likely the most
typical of the bikes Chalo would use for regular transportation.

>
> "Jay Beattie" wrote
>
> I don't know why he hasn't gotten into custom building of components
> or frames -- apart from the dog trailers.<snip>
>
> There's a few of us out here, but most cyclists are little guys by
> comparison. For the record, he's taller, I'm at this point much heavier,
> (hoping to fix that part). That's why I went for a tandem rear wheel on my
> new cruiser, as I know between weight and strength, I am punishing my bike.

You are much heavier than ~350 pounds?

[James]

Ugly cable routing.

--
JS.

[Curtis]

"Tom $herman (-_-)" wrote > You are much heavier than ~350 pounds?

Scary, eh?

[Dan O]

Well I see one (1) 7-speed Campy brifter set on ebay - currently going
for $50. That wouldn't be so bad (considering a lot of Campy downtube
friction shifters are priced even higher), and could make for a super-
neato bike (Klein Performance - circa ~1990, IIRC, ). Even that
listing says "rare" - which is supported by its lone status among lots
and lots of 8-9-10-11-speed, but I can't even bid on it this month :-(

<snip>

[Chalo]

Lots of things. No drop bars yet, after many earnest trials and
rejections.

My regular daily bikes have BMX bars, MTB bars, and roadster bars. Oh
yeah-- one has drop bars turned around and flipped upside down, with a
reverse brake lever.

Chalo

[James]

Sounds painful, especially if you go over the bars for some reason?

--
JS.

[David Scheidt]

Chalo <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:

:My regular daily bikes have BMX bars, MTB bars, and roadster bars. Oh

:yeah-- one has drop bars turned around and flipped upside down, with a
:reverse brake lever.

I thought you had to have a DUI for those.

--
ASCII was good enough for יְהוֹשֻׁעַ!

[Frank Krygowski]

Regarding difficulty of repair, we need to remember who we are here: a
bunch of geeks who think it's really interesting to discuss the intimate
mechanical details of a bicycle. We're just not normal!

I've mentioned this before, but I've done caliper brake adjustments for
a PhD Electrical Engineering friend who couldn't figure them out
himself. I recently solved a simple front derailleur adjustment problem
for a Civil Engineer friend - and I think there's little on a bike
that's simpler than a front derailleur.

The person whose brand new 9 speed STI wasn't working has a husband
who's a damn good mechanic. His hobby is rebuilding (endlessly) his old
sports car, plus other old cars. I'm sure he's rebuilt at least 15
engines in his lifetime. But he just didn't know what to do with
non-working STI.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Chalo]

David Scheidt wrote:

> Chalo wrote:
> :
> : My regular daily bikes have BMX bars, MTB bars, and roadster bars.  Oh
> : yeah-- one has drop bars turned around and flipped upside down, with a
> : reverse brake lever.
>
> I thought you had to have a DUI for those.

The canonical DUI bar is not removed from the stem, but only flipped
over. That yields the most ergonomic improvement (some) per effort
(almost none). Also, at that point you're contractually obligated to
smack the seat down all the way to the top tube. And ride while
smoking cigarettes.

I like rearward-pointing bar ends, so I used inverted and reversed
drops, with the bends still oriented forward. I use them on my clown
bike, which I ride to marching band gigs. It has yellow tires and a
big plastic basket hanging from the upside-down drop bars.

Chalo

[Chalo]

James wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Lou Holtman wrote:
> >>
> >> Cyclocross without brifters? Yeah sure, but not me ;-)
> >
> > http://retroshift.com/
>
> Ugly cable routing.

The only thing uglier than cables is living without them!

Chalo

[Chalo]

Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> Tool-less repair and prudent application of WD 40 does not
> strike me as difficult, but if the owner does perceive that as
> difficult, the owner needs different equipment -- and should also
> consider belt drive SS.

Single speed pretty much obviates the need for a belt (and is the only
thing you can do with a belt, sadly). By the time you have straight
chainline and a steel rear sprocket with at least 16 full height
teeth, the chain has to be well beyond knackered (or rusted solid) to
give you any practical trouble.

I think the default bike for people who don't care about cycling or
bike maintenance should be a coaster brake roadster with armored
700x38 tires, North Road bars, 52/21 gearing, 1/8" chain, and a front
caliper brake.

Chalo

[AMuzi]

Not all that different from my winter fixie. A new chain
once a year, flats now and again, new brake pads every few
years. No other work needed in many years. Ugly but very
dependable.

[James]

You mean fixie no brakes?

Ergo is nicely routed without loops of cable.

Even STI has caught up in that regard.

Or do you mean via electric gear changers? I'm not so keen on that
"advancement", nor the need for 11 speed. Though from what I hear, the
electric stuff apparently works well enough.

Perhaps electric gear changers that auto tune and "just work" out of the
box will revolutionize the use of gears on bicycles, and even Frank's
engineering mates who don't understand how to make cable adjustments,
etc., will find their bicycle is ever so easy to operate.

--
JS.

[Tom $herman (-_-)]

Cables can be replaced by hydraulic lines. More costly and complex, but
much better feel in most cases.

[James]

On 09/01/12 16:01, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 1/8/2012 7:52 PM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>>
>>> Chalo wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cyclocross without brifters? Yeah sure, but not me ;-)
>>>>
>>>> http://retroshift.com/
>>>
>>> Ugly cable routing.
>>
>> The only thing uglier than cables is living without them!
>
> Cables can be replaced by hydraulic lines. More costly and complex, but
> much better feel in most cases.
>

Don't they look somewhat similar?

I was talking about gear cables anyway. I don't know of hydraulically
operated derailleurs.

--
JS.

[Chalo]

James wrote:
>
> I was talking about gear cables anyway.  I don't know of hydraulically
> operated derailleurs.

http://www.acros.de/PRODUKTE/SCHALTUNG:::3_134.html?language=en

Super-expensive solution in search of a problem.

Chalo

[Chalo]

James wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > James wrote:
> >>
> >> Chalo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> http://retroshift.com/
> >>
> >> Ugly cable routing.
> >
> > The only thing uglier than cables is living without them!
>
> You mean fixie no brakes?

I mean not being able to shift gears or use cable-actuated brakes.

Coaster braked bikes and two-speed kickback hubs can be pretty nice,
actually. But they are no substitute for bikes that use cables to
good effect.

> Ergo is nicely routed without loops of cable.
>
> Even STI has caught up in that regard.

Cable routing under the tape, shift or brake, is crap. Adds friction,
complicates servicing. Sacrifices function for vanity. No thanks.

Chalo

[Chalo]

AMuzi wrote:

>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > I think the default bike for people who don't care about cycling or
> > bike maintenance should be a coaster brake roadster with armored
> > 700x38 tires, North Road bars, 52/21 gearing, 1/8" chain, and a front
> > caliper brake.
>

> Not all that different from my winter fixie. A new chain
> once a year, flats now and again, new brake pads every few
> years. No other work needed in many years. Ugly but very
> dependable.

I would not recommend CFRP or fixed gearing to a mechanically retarded
person. But you and I probably agree that even an indifferent person
can do much better than a beach cruiser for low-effort, low-commitment
riding.

Chalo

[Frank Krygowski]

James wrote:
>
> Perhaps electric gear changers that auto tune and "just work" out of the
> box will revolutionize the use of gears on bicycles, and even Frank's
> engineering mates who don't understand how to make cable adjustments,
> etc., will find their bicycle is ever so easy to operate.

That EE that had brake trouble is a microprocessor specialist. Maybe if
we went to electronic shifting, he'd be fixing my bike instead of me
fixing his!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[thirty-six]

Why doesn't a beach-cruiser work well, other than cheap tyres and a
poor environment?

[Jay Beattie]

Dude, you have to join the conspicuously simple crowd -- e.g. the bike
next to mine in the rack this morning: rigid mtb frame, spotless matte
black paint, SS with idler, Brooks saddle, wooden fenders, single
chain ring, red SPDs, disc front and v-brake rear, 26" rims with
skinny-ish tires -- probably 32mm tops, narrower flat bars. You could
eat off the rims they were so clean, suggesting to me that this bike
does not see much in the way of foul weather -- or the owner is super
anal. Bikes like this exude coolness, until you have to grind up (or
down) some 20% grade out of town or spend your evening fussing over a
leather saddle in a wet environment and dealing with wooden anything
on a bike.

http://www.woodysfenders.com/store/
http://fullwoodfenders.com/gallery.html

I've never owned wooden fenders, but they don't look like they provide
good coverage -- particularly for the expense. Maybe I'm just
jealous, being that I have ordinary black plastic fenders.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Chalo]

thirty-six wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > [...] But you and I probably agree that even an indifferent person

> > can do much better than a beach cruiser for low-effort, low-commitment
> > riding.
>

> Why doesn't a beach-cruiser work well, other than cheap tyres and a
> poor environment?

It doesn't reward modest effort with even modest speed.

Chalo

[Lou Holtman]

Op 9-1-2012 2:41, Frank Krygowski schreef:

>
> Regarding difficulty of repair, we need to remember who we are here: a
> bunch of geeks who think it's really interesting to discuss the intimate
> mechanical details of a bicycle. We're just not normal!

We are interested.

>
> I've mentioned this before, but I've done caliper brake adjustments for
> a PhD Electrical Engineering friend who couldn't figure them out
> himself. I recently solved a simple front derailleur adjustment problem
> for a Civil Engineer friend - and I think there's little on a bike
> that's simpler than a front derailleur.
>
> The person whose brand new 9 speed STI wasn't working has a husband
> who's a damn good mechanic. His hobby is rebuilding (endlessly) his old
> sports car, plus other old cars. I'm sure he's rebuilt at least 15
> engines in his lifetime. But he just didn't know what to do with
> non-working STI.
>

This can mean two things:
1. they are not interested,
2. they are not as smart as there job title suggest. I work with
software engineers, hardware engineers, physicist etc so I know. |It is
not about knowing the solution it is about finding one.

Lou