It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States, Mr Hanson.

[Andre Jute]

https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/09/27/the-world-wants-no-part-of-woke-but-its-glad-we-do-n2613688

It wasn't "Americans" who screwed the United States with "woke" ideology, Mr Hanson. It was the Democrat Party pandering to its insane left wing, and its intimidated so-called "centre" or, even more risibly, "moderates" doing absolutely nothing about it for fear of being cancelled.

There are too many Americans to be lumped together. The good people need to identify the America-haters and put them down with utmost brutality as an existential threat, for reasons Victor Davis Hanson has pithily summarised in a very short article.

Andre Jute
Credit where it is due, and specific blame where compromise is no longer possible.

[Tom Kunich]

The Slime Stream Media is crying Climate Change but blaming Putin for the destruction of the Russian-European natural gas pipeline. Methane is one of the most powerful greenhouse gases and Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the pipeline up. And you certainly can't blame Russia - a country teetering on Bankruptcy for destroying a major source of hard income.

So again the left is exposed for their utter hypocrisy. They couldn't care less about climate change - that is for the little man that they convinced it was real. Well, Methane (natural gas) is real and the destruction of that pipeline was a greater blow to the environment than the 1960's to 980's car culture.

[Andre Jute]

That whole pipeline business is bizarre. A British MP thinks it is Putin sending a message that more could be destroyed to deliver pain to the West. Meanwhile, if Putin is rational, which shouldn't be the default assumption, gas could be delivered through several other pipelines. Map at https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/vladimir-putin-russia-ukraine-4308624.jpg?r=1664367784235 It was beyond crazy of the Europeans to give Putin so much control over their energy, even after Mr Trump tried to talk some sense into them. -- AJ

[Tom Kunich]

I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.

[Andre Jute]

We can only wish, but I'm not so sure. The depth of Russian fatalism is unfathomed, and that man has a very firm grip on the institutions where Russian decisions of State are made. On the other hand, there is the distinctly Russian tradition of assassinating tyrants once they start losing. -- AJ
>

[AMuzi]

The pipeline attack is like an Agatha Christie piece- way
too many actors with both means and motivation.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

There were THREE very large underwater explosions. There are not a lot of people that can accomplish that without leaving traces all over the place. Andre points out to what occurs to losers in the Russian political atmosphere. Putin used to be the head of the KGB so he is well aware of what can and might be done. Especially now that his attack on the Ukraine has turned into losing the cream of his military might. Does anyone with a shred of intelligence believe that supplying nothing more than cannon fodder is going to change things?

No, the only one with a motive and the capability was Biden and he told the entire world in a press conference that he intended to do just that.

[AMuzi]

All week I've listened to pundits quoting (as regards Putin
and Xi)'Revolution is impossible until it is inevitable'.
Well, duh. But who knows when time has come? I surely don't.

[Tom Kunich]

There are two possibilities in November - either there is a overwhelming Republican victory or the Democrats have now perfected election fraud. But if the later we will see whistle blowers.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/28/2022 10:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> Biden stated that IF Russia invaded the Ukraine he would blow the pipeline up.

Tom, you can prove you're not insanely delusional by posting a direct
quote of Biden saying that.

We'll wait.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Checking my Gmail around I see that Krygowski who has proven wrong on every single thing he has said in 20 years is presently pretending that his God - Biden - would NEVER say directly that he would commit an international act of terrorism after saying he would.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/28/2022 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Checking my Gmail around I see that Krygowski who has proven wrong on every single thing he has said in 20 years is presently pretending that his God - Biden - would NEVER say directly that he would commit an international act of terrorism after saying he would.
>
> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo

:-) Ah, Tom! I suspected you got your delusion from Tucker Carlson,
World's Whackiest News Propagandist!

Now to prove your point, please highlight the _quotation_ of President
Biden saying he would blow up that pipeline. Note, I'm not interested in
Tucker Carlson's pretending or rephrasing, because Carlson is as crazy
as you. I'm interested in a direct Biden quotation.

Here's a hint to help your dismal reading comprehension: When Carlson
ends a sentence with a question mark, as in "So once again, did the
Biden administration really do this?" it is NOT a statement of fact.
It's a hypothetical and inflammatory question intended to suck in idiot
right wing "true believers." And predictably, it worked on you.

Oddly, other people don't seem to blame Biden.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-lawmakers-break-europes-silence-105844953.html
They tend to suspect Russia. But Carlson and his disciples are willing
to attack Biden in order to protect their true love, Putin.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I just HAD to go on Gmail to see that Francis was going to do exactly what I could have predicted - you see because it was REPORTED by Tucker Carlson with a direct video of Biden saying that it nullified completely what gf\the video showed. The YouTube video of Biden saying this is all over the Internet but Fracis like the useless little cunt he is, is implying that Biden never said that and that Carlson made a fake video. I used that citation precisely because I wanted everyone to see what sort of mind Krygowski has and why nothing he says is ever, EVER, of any value.

[AMuzi]

It's not a technically daunting problem. No need for
submarines or UDT or SBS commandos. As noted in a British
paper yesterday the routes are well publicized. One need
only pass a 'fishing' trawler across the path, drop a timed
explosive and keep moving. 'Timed explosive' can be an hour
or a day or a week.

[Tom Kunich]

Undersea pipelines are triple protected - a pipe inside a pipe inside a pipe. This means that you have to place an explosive very large and directly in contact with the pipeline because they are protected again earthquakes and the very unlikely case of a ship sinking directly on top of them.

[AMuzi]

They're substantial heavy-wall steel pipe encased in
concrete but a relatively small explosive device can crack
them. Note the Swedish seismic data- not large at all.

[Tom Kunich]

It turns out that sort of like you say it as only a single layer steel pipe. Or almost. It was a steel pipe covered AFTER welding with a concrete shell but more importantly it has a modern inner thick shell of a rubber-like self sealing material to prevent leaks from any natural source. It is the longest pipeline in the world and so the highest technology known had to be used to prevent even small leaks since it moves something like 33 Billion cubic meters of gas each year and was scheduled to double that. Even a small leak could cause an environmental disaster so it wasn't "easy" to breech and it wasn't small explosives since it was measured on seismometers. It was estimated at several tons of explosives each in two places. Not exactly the sort of thing that a couple of terrorist Frogmen would do.

But allow me to point out that that was a pipe inside a pipe inside a pipe. And it couldn't be laid by a ship since that is one of the busiest waterways in the world and traffic is entirely radar controlled. Therefore it was carried and positioned by a submarine. No doubt a USN attack submarine which would be able to stay invisible to detection in water that shallow.

Now, can you guess what Russia is going to do since at the time while gas wasn't flowing actively the pipeline had to remain pressurized?

[Andre Jute]

On second thoughts, I'm less inclined to agree with the glib belief that Putin did it himself as a message. It's far too subtle. He would just have turned off the gas and said, "I'll turn it back on when you stop interfering." But I can't as an alternative believe that Biden, a frightened old man, did it. But I don't have any definite candidates either: there are, as you say, just too many people who hate one or the other of the players and boosters and kibitzers in this comedy of errors. The most likely party to orchestrate a split second techno-bombing like this, without blowing themselves up, are the Ukrainians, who have their own ex-KGB/FSB/GRU types, as the Ukrainians were such a force in the Brezhnev years (from before the war, actually, but I was in Russia in Brezhnev's "little perestroika" and noticed the poor quality of official Russian diction then, so of course I'm biased) that the whole Russian language as spoken at apparatchik level took on an ugly Ukrainian sound. -- AJ
>

[AMuzi]

I do not know.

Later reports indicate explosions each of 700kg TNT
equivalent. I didn't find ready equivalents for modern
explosives although I did waste some time at it:

https://www.ripublication.com/ijaer18/ijaerv13n2_37.pdf

I pictured four young men ecstatic at the grant which
allowed them to spend a summer blowing up reinforced
concrete pillars. Science doesn't get better than that!

[Andre Jute]

One of the British papers reported a source telling them that the explosives were probably arranged as three bombs of about a hundred pounds of C4 each per strand of the pipeline, in a particular pattern to ensure that the pipe's designed defences against earthquakes are overcome. That sounds like what Tom was telling you upthread. And I don't know for a fact either but a hundred pounds of C4 all by itself sounds like 700 pounds of dynamite, which is what TNT is. -- AJ

[Andre Jute]

You're crazier than a rat in the final stages of syphilis, Franki-boy. There's film of Biden threatening the gas pipelines. Here are Biden's actual words:

.....
PRESIDENT BIDEN: If Russia invades that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again. Then there will be, there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.

REPORTER: But how will you. How will you do that, exactly, since the project and control of the project is within Germany's control?

BIDEN: We will. I promise you, we'll be able to do it.
...
If you think you can blow smoke over Biden's explicit threat, "professor" Frank Krygowski, you're crazier than two tomcats in a paper bag. Except you don't have the brains of even one tomcat.
>
This message is given on his own authority by Andre Jute in the interest of sanity in American cycling..
>

[John B.]

I believe that some "modern" pipelines are cathodic protected rather
then concrete coated but regardless, the problem is locating the
damned things which takes rather special instruments to do.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003682X07000916
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=8819917

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

leaving traces all over the place"???

A rather remarkable statement! Now tell us Tommy, just what traces do
you believe someone leaves out there on the surface of the ocean?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.

Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
deposed, they will surely follow.

Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
don't think they can do much with what's left:
<https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
<https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
<https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 09:57:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo

Yech. Shopping for a conspiracy or a culprit? Start here:

"Baltic Pipe gas pipeline officially opens to reduce dependency on
Russia" (Sept 28, 2022)
<https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/baltic-pipe-gas-pipeline-officially-opens-to-reduce-dependency-on-russia/2696408>
"The project was initiated by Poland in 2016 following the Crimean
War, long before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February this year,
which triggered an energy crisis."

Poland just might end up saving Europe.

ENTSOG natural gas network map (2021):
<https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2021-11/ENTSOG_CAP_2021_A0_1189x841_FULL_066_FLAT.pdf>

ENTSOG natural gas system development map"
<https://www.entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2022-01/ENTSOG_GIE_SYSDEV_2020-2021.pdf>

The Baltic Pipeline is show on the maps as a dashed line.

[John B.]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 21:52:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>
>Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
>deposed, they will surely follow.
>
>Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
>just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
>don't think they can do much with what's left:
><https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
><https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
>Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
>activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
><https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>

Sounds like the Russians are taking lessons from the USians who were
scurrying north across the border to avoid the draft back in the
1960's (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:24:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

<https://www.quora.com/How-many-draft-dodgers-went-to-Canada-during-the-Vietnam-War>
About 30,000 Americans went to Canada to avoid
the Vietnam War.

About 30,000 Canadians traveled South to the
US to volunteer and participate in the Vietnam War.
They were welcomed with open arms. 12,000 were in
combat outfits in the Army and Marines. 134 died.
They are on The Wall in Washington DC.

So, Canadians took the place of the Americans that
decided to go to Canada. Pretty well evened out.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War>
<https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Canadians-Vietnam-Fred-Gaffen/dp/1550020730>

Draft evasion is a problem in any country with a draft. Covid fatigue
has become a big part of the problem. For example:

"IDF alarmed over growing draft-dodging trend" (July 25, 2022)
<https://www.israelhayom.com/2022/07/25/idf-alarmed-over-increasing-draft-dodging-trend/>
"The IDF Manpower Directorate estimates that youngsters evaded
conscription as a way to "rebel" against the establishment after being
severely affected by the pandemic when they were forced to stay at
home and study online for months at a time."

[John B.]

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 23:18:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

Possible correct, but I can remember way back to the WW II days when
people actually volunteered to go off to war and their relatives were
so proud that they displayed a posters in the front window to let
everyone know that their Kid, Hubby, whoever, was serving their
country.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sepp Ruf]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 09:57:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo
>
> Yech. Shopping for a conspiracy or a culprit? Start here:

No, we remember Trump's veiled ultimatum very well. Of course, the
young German socialist triathlete imbecile at the Amt laughed him off
because he could not believe the US was ready to wreck Europe, to
prolong the dollar debt cycle. We have heard Nuland, Condoleeza,
Bidenbot, and the CIA, sketch, imply, "predict," and "warn" in no
uncertain terms for those who can hear.

Anyhow, after reasonable consideration, the search stops here:
https://nitter.net/radeksikorski/status/1574800653724966915#m
Radek Applebaum is so arrogant he isn't making the slightest effort to
hide the Western Elite's congratulations to the US Navy business visit.

> "Baltic Pipe gas pipeline officially opens to reduce dependency on
> Russia" (Sept 28, 2022)
> <https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/baltic-pipe-gas-pipeline-officially-opens-to-reduce-dependency-on-russia/2696408>
> "The project was initiated by Poland in 2016 following the Crimean
> War, long before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in February this year,
> which triggered an energy crisis."

Anadolu London, that's slightly better than the crap Frank presents
after fishing at Yahoo. Note the fine difference between trigger and
cause? Correctly buried under the article's topical quotations from the
Baltic Pipe people.

> Poland just might end up saving Europe.

I'll be generous and put this under Jeff's Middleeuropean Joke of the
Week. Nordstream pipeline was good enough to feed Poland cheap nat-gas
while they shut down their Belarus-routed flow, being too picky to
directly pay Russia. Let's see what prices the timely pipeline builders
will demand for whatever leftover volume they might offer to their
southwesterly neighbors.


--
"To be an enemy of the US is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal."
- Henry Kissinger

[AMuzi]

On 9/28/2022 11:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am absolutely certain that Putin is not all there. Were he in the least interested in his own people he would not be wasting what little wealth Russia has in fighting what has turned out to be a losing war. But I'm sure that will not be long in ending since the rich of Russia are NOT going to stand bravely at attention and allow their youth - the flower of a generation - be drafted and essentially sent off to their doom.
>
> Wrong. The Russian oligarchy owes its wealth to Putin. If Putin is
> deposed, they will surely follow.
>
> Putin just called up 300,000 reservists and retired soldiers. 194,000
> just escaped to Estonia and Kazakhstan. Probably more to follow. I
> don't think they can do much with what's left:
> <https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-estonia-kazakhstan-d851fdd9e99bedbf4e01b98efd18d14b>
> <https://www.post-gazette.com/news/world/2022/09/27/russian-military-call-ups-putin-reserves-ukraine-war-update-flight-kazahkstan-georgia/stories/202209270087>
> Read about what happened with the Russian reservists when they were
> activated to fight in Afghanistan in 1979.
> <https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB57/soviet.html>
>

And in another trend, 'Friends of Vladmir' have developed a
disturbing pattern of defenestration:

https://www.newsweek.com/russians-keep-mysteriously-falling-windows-deaths-1738954

Add that to the various unexplained recent phenomena.

[AMuzi]

Times change but humans do not:

https://blogs.shu.edu/ww2-0/1943/05/16/fbi-cracks-down-on-draft-dodgers-638-arrested/

[Tom Kunich]

More Google information from a man who probably has been supported his entire life from an inheritance. WW II brought on another draft after huge numbers of volunteers joined. What did the draft produce? thousands of conscientious objectors who were assigned as medics, cooks and truck drivers. Thousands of these if not killed in a war of attrition returned to a country that despised them. They could only get the lowest of jobs and it wasn't until Korea and the country turned its attention to other things that they were able to recover from those choices.

But apparently the man who has never been outside of his neighborhood knows better.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm sure there have been both volunteers and "dodgers" in every war. (In
the days of the U.S. Civil War, a Yankee could legally buy his way out
of service.) But I'm also sure that the balance varied from war to war,
based on public perceptions of the war's justification.

After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, doubts about the wisdom of U.S.
involvement shrank radically. That was the last straw after reports of
European horrors.

Viet Nam, like certain other "special military operations" by the U.S.,
had no similar justification. "The domino effect" just didn't cut it in
most people's minds. It's not surprising that a significant number of
guys decided to evade draft.

Ultimately, in those situations everyone has to consider the personal
benefits vs. detriments. For some, giving one's life in support of crown
or country seems like a wonderful choice. For others, not so much. and
that balance changes based on what "crown or country" are trying to
achieve.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

Classic. As in classic draft-dodger bullshit. Once a shirker and a coward, always a shirker and a coward. Not a thought for the poor kid from the ghetto who died in his place. -- Unsigned out of contempt.

[Radey Shouman]

Very near, or inside, the Danish or Swedish economic zones? I'll bet
fishing trawlers are pretty well surveiled. On the other hand I'm not
sure I would bet on dropping an explosive (estimated 500 Kg TNT
equivalent) accurately enough through 90 meters of seawater, that sounds
like a bit of a challenge.

[AMuzi]

Britain entered WWII in defense of Poland. We entered the
Korean peninsula in defense of ROK, Indochina in defense of
RVN. Is there some fundamental difference I missed?

(our entry to WWII was after Pearl Harbor and the next day
Germany declared against us so hardly a 'war of choice' for USA)

[AMuzi]

I don't know. My search yesterday was fruitless and I don't
know anyone with relevant military experience so you may be
right. Or not.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:03:42 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>And in another trend, 'Friends of Vladmir' have developed a
>disturbing pattern of defenestration:
>
>https://www.newsweek.com/russians-keep-mysteriously-falling-windows-deaths-1738954
>
>Add that to the various unexplained recent phenomena.

"The Forbes Ultimate Guide To Russian Oligarchs"
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2022/04/07/the-forbes-ultimate-guide-to-russian-oligarchs/?sh=4b40bc31276d>
"After Vladimir Putin rose to power in 2000, he helped make a number
of them richer and rewarded his closest cronies by turning them into
billionaires. There are 83 Russians on this year’s Billionaires list;
we consider 68 of them to be oligarchs. Another 18 oligarchs were
billionaires before the war but have lost too much money since the
invasion of Ukraine to qualify for our ranking."

There are 68 oligarchs in the Russian Federation. At the present rate
of "suicides", they will soon run out of oligarchs. Like Stalin's
purges, this observation is a powerful incentive to watch one's back,
but apparently not sufficient to dissuade others from trying their
luck at surviving a purge. The benefits seem to outweigh the risks. I
believe the object of the game is to grab as much wealth as possible
and then emigrate to a safer country before the inevitable "suicide".

[Frank Krygowski]

As I understand it (and I'm no expert) the European nations were a
tangle of treaties and alliances. But having experienced The Great War
AKA WWI, it's no surprise if Britain thought early action was prudent
against Germany.

But you're certainly correct that WW2 was not a war of choice for the
U.S. Consequently the great bulk of American society and its young men
(including my father) reacted very differently to it than to Viet Nam.

This makes my point quite precisely. A person's attitude and choice
toward military service depends greatly on what the country is
attempting to achieve.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

When he was born, his parents looked at him and said, "Yeah, he's really a Francis". So the cowardice oozed out of every pore in his body.

[Tom Kunich]

a hundred tons of TNT is not very much C4. This doesn't work if you're near. You have to be in direct contact.

[John B.]

Yup, Terrible! Terrible!

But reality shows that during WW II some 50 million men between
eighteen and forty-five had registered for the draft and 10 million
had been inducted in the military.

So lets see 638/50 million is? 0.0012%

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

I didn't find a total easily. That report was for one large
raid.
I have read several contemporary accounts of people who
moved, changed name, worked for cash etc as draft dodgers so
I knew there were at least some. How many? No idea but more
than 635.

[John B.]

During WW II the Royal Navy's 450 lb (200 kg) Mark VII depth charge.
Note, this was the total weight of the device which contained 290 lb
(130 kg) TNT

As for effectiveness, the following from the Wikki
The killing radius of a depth charge depends on the depth of
detonation, the payload of the depth charge and the size and strength
of the submarine hull. A depth charge of approximately 220 lb (100 kg)
of TNT (400 MJ) would normally have a killing radius (resulting in a
hull breach) of only 9.8–13.1 ft (3–4 m) against a conventional
1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine
is not sunk but is put out of commission) would be approximately 26–33
ft (8–10 m). A larger payload increases the radius only slightly
because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of
the distance to the target.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#Effectiveness
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 07:34:30 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

Where do you get your fantasies? Given that you were what? One year
old and peeing in your nappies when WW II ended and 6 years old and
still peeing in your pants when the Korean War began. So how do you
know about conscientious objectors.

Vivid imagination? Drunken dreams? Insanity? Lies?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Don't get carried away here.

G.B. and France declared war on Germany in an attempt to limit
Germany's further expansion. Germany had already taken over Austria,
Sudetenland, and part of Czechoslovakia. The "trigger" was, as you
say, the German invasion of Poland.

As for Vietnam, the 1954 Geneva Conference had agreed that
Vietnam would be divided at the 17th parallel until 1956, when
democratic elections would be held under international supervision.
All parties involved agreed to this except for the U.S.

>(our entry to WWII was after Pearl Harbor and the next day
>Germany declared against us so hardly a 'war of choice' for USA)

--

Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Thanks but there's still a lot we do not know. Submarines
are double-hull steel (or now titanium) but pipelines have a
concrete outer casing and some resilient liner between.
Also, these pipelines are in only 80~100 meters of water,
much more shallow than usual submarine operations.

[John B.]

Well, you posted and I replied to your post (:-)

But a further look shows that
Draft evasion accounted for about 4% of the total inducted. About
373,000 alleged evaders were investigated with just over 16,000 being
imprisoned.

More than 72,000 men registering as conscientious objectors (CO),
nearly 52,000 received CO status. Of these, over 25,000 entered the
military in noncombatant roles, another 12,000 went to the Civilian
Public Service program, and nearly 6,000 went to prison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#World_War_II
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Pipe lines vary in construction but here is more detail about the Nord
Stream pipeline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzibtVSamrY

Re Submarines. I think that WW II subs were single plate hulls with
external buoyancy chambers, while more modern vessels are the "two
hull" design.

Another point is that the pipeline has probably sunk below the normal
sea bed which might have an effect on explosions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

Those radii seem pretty small to me. I can easily imagine a depth
charge drifting horizontally more than 10 feet, due to current and so
forth. I'll bet the pipeline was quite a bit tougher than a WW II sub,

[John B.]

The Royal Navy Type D depth charge was designated the "Mark VII" in
1939.Initial sinking speed was 7 ft/s (2.1 m/s) with a terminal
velocity of 9.9 ft/s (3.0 m/s) at a depth of 250 ft (76 m) Cast iron
weights of 150 lb (68 kg) were attached to the Mark VII at the end of
1940 to increase sinking velocity to 16.8 ft/s (5.1 m/s) The Mark
VII's 290 lb (130 kg) amatol charge was estimated to be capable of
splitting a 7/8 in (22 mm) submarine pressure hull at a distance of 20
ft (6.1 m).

The Nord Stream pipeline is said to be at 80 - 110 meters.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 10:21:20 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>The Nord Stream pipeline is said to be at 80 - 110 meters.

Yep.

<https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/27/qa-what-is-known-so-far-about-the-nord-stream-gas-pipeline-leak>
Both pipelines still contain gas under pressure,
but are not delivering the fuel to Europe.

Each line of the pipeline consists of about
100,000 24-tonne concrete-weight coated steel
pipes laid on the seabed. The pipelines have a
constant internal diameter of 1.153m, according
to Nord Stream.

Sections lie at a depth of around 80-110m.

So, what could cause a pipeline under pressure to rupture in several
places at the same time? It's probably not a bomb, depth charge, or
shaped charge from the outside. The pipe was full of non-moving gas
under pressure. The pressure is needed to keep the pipe from
collapsing from water pressure. At 100 meters, that would be 10 bar,
981 kPa or 142 psi.

My guess(tm) is something exploded on the inside. I was thinking that
it might be that someone injected air or oxygen into the pipeline and
let it diffuse. When the stoichiometric mixture of 1:2
(methane:oxygen) is achieved, any kind of spark will detonate the
mixture, cause a major explosion and destroy the pipe. A shaped
charge could burn its way into the pipe from the outside, but it would
be easier to just put a timed ignition device on an inspection PIG
(pipeline inspection gadget) and have it drive the length of the pipe
to the explosion site:
"Smart Pig Pipeline Inspection"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJnO8exGgng>
There's no way to section off part of the pipeline with valves as each
pipe only has a huge valve at each end:
<https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/worlds-heaviest-gate-valves-arrive-in-greifswald-for-nord-stream-pipeline-227/>
The other leaks are probably marginal welds or seals broken loose by
the explosion.

[John B.]

On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 22:10:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

I doubt that is defective welds as an undersea gas line would have a
pretty stringent inspection system set up to check the weld before
dropping the pipe 100 meters to the bottom of the sea.
see
https://www.wermac.org/nordstream/nordstream_part8.html

Your "theory" of an explosive "pig" is pretty much fantasy as how
would you get it into the pipeline? You would have to have access to
the "pig launcher" and a "pig" for that size pipe wouldn't be
something that you would smuggle into the yard in your hip pocket.
https://hollandia.biz/en/projecten/pig-launcher-receiver-heads-for-nordstream-2/

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 10:24:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> As I understand it (and I'm no expert)
>

That's an understatement. You're an idiot with opinions beyond your station in life.

> But having experienced The Great War
> AKA WWI, it's no surprise if Britain thought early action was prudent
> against Germany.
>

Holy Moses, how ignorant can you get? The British thought exactly the opposite of "early action was prudent against Germany", you foolish clown. Throughout the 1930's Churchill was an outsider with a ruined career because he stood virtually alone in warning against a rising Germany and against Hitler. Far, far from "Britain thought early action was prudent against Germany" (your own stupid words, Franki-boy), senior members of the Cabinet, including all who were thought to be in the circle from which the next Prime Minister would be chosen, were Appeasers, people who said publicly that they didn't want to fight Hitler, and who didn't fight Hitler over Czechoslovakia: "Peace in our time!" said the Prime Minister, waving a worthless piece of paper signed by Hitler claiming that he had no further territorial ambitions.
>
But here we have the self-styled "professor" Frank Krygowsky, lately a factory maintenance instructor at some no-count provincial college, telling us on his own authority that "Britain thought early action was prudent against Germany."
>
How ignorant can even an Ohio hick get? What makes it worse is that this particular Ohio hick, Franki-boy Krygowski, has a Polish name, so one presumes his parents or grandparents were Polish immigrants. But he doesn't even know that Britain when it went to war belatedly (not at all "early action", "professor" Ignoramus) because Germany invaded Poland.
>
Ugh! How even a hick school can let such a moron loose on the nation's children is absolutely beyond belief.
>
This message and its irrefutable facts are given on his own authority by Andre Jute
>

[Andre Jute]

Those gas tubes are stabilised against earthquakes, so I should think we're talking about resisting tremendous water pressure. That's how submarines used to be sunk, setting off much bigger volumes of explosives than would required on land where the firing party could count on a direct hit. The water pressure would spring riveted plates on the sub's hull, and the water would do the rest.
>
Me, I think this sort of pinpoint limited target exercise had to be done by drivers or drone subs planting shaped explosives, otherwise they risked the destruction of too much of the pipeline or failing altogether to damage the pipeline. Direct contact sounds right.
>
There was a good point made upthread that those are heavily trafficked waters and the fishing trawlers are well surveilled. But they're well surveilled by, in addition to satellites, other trawlers fully fitted out for spying missions. Such a spy trawler could conceivably carry robot subs for planting comms spying gear, which could plant shaped charges on of a couple of meters in diameter, easy peasy, as they would normally work on much smaller cables.
>
Andre Jute
Unless the miscreants are publicly decorated for this crime, or confess, it is unlikely we will ever know precisely how the job was done.>

[AMuzi]

Good point but someone successfully breached them.

[AMuzi]

The pipelines aren't moving, the positions are known and so
descent rate is immaterial. Despite various impedimenta
someone did successfully breach them.

[John B.]

If you are dropping something in absolutely calm waters then no the
decent rate is meaningless however it is a rare experience at sea to
find totally calm water. There is almost always a current or tide that
causes movement at the surface or at depth so yes the decent rate is,
or rather can be, important.

But regardless to all other facts or notions they did, as you say,
damage the pipeline sufficiently to cause a leak.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

You have to understand that Slocumb had an idiot's job in the Air Force. And now he is telling you about the Navy.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank appears to be to be barely educated. He knows nothing whatsoever about recent history that effected the polish people. Certainly his parents or grandparents would have had something to say about it around the supper table but he is so stupid he couldn't pick it up. Maybe he and Ridesalittle should worry more about the door zones and bike lanes.

[Tom Kunich]

I doubt that any surface ship was involved because the black sea is so closely controlled. Drones leave RF traces since RF traffic is also monitored. AI drones cannot be trusted and a miss is much worse than a hit.

[Tom Kunich]

Andrew, you CANNOT be close and expect to destroy a pipeline with a charge that small. The charge was directly attached to the pipeline and probably at a junction.

[AMuzi]

I agree an internal explosive is highly unlikely.
Meanwhile Norway reports increased 'unidentified drone'
activity near their oil/gas facilities:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/norway-oil-safety-regulator-warns-threats-unidentified-drones-2022-09-26/

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/09/26/norway-oil-safety

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 14:14:51 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Good points and I don't have any answers today. I did make one big
mistake. At the time, I assumed that the explosion was only in Nord
Stream 2. However, the two additional leaks discovered are both in
Nord Stream 1 and sufficiently far away that explosive coupling is
unlikely. For my guess(tm) to be correct, there would need to be two
pigs involved, one for each pipe.

According to one expert, all the methane will have leaked out of the
pipelines by Sunday. That should allow inspection of the explosion
site. If the edges of the hole point inward, the explosive was
outside of the pipe. If the edges point outward, the explosive was
inside the pipe. If debris is found from a pig, then a pig was
involved.

The methane gas is being displaced by sea water, which will likely
ruin the steel pipe. The outside of the pipe is obviously well
protected from sea water corrosion. I'm not so sure about the inside
of the pipe.

Any idea what "test gas" is composed of? Nord Stream 2 may have been
filled with the stuff at the time of the explosion. See comments in
this video at 7:08:
"Potential sabotage: What's behind the Nord Stream pipeline leaks? |
DW News"
<https://youtu.be/ShXmPA21j-E?t=417>

Some more on how the pipeline works:
"The Engineering Behind Russia's Deadlocked Pipeline: Nord Stream 2"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzibtVSamrY>

[Tom Kunich]

These were without a doubt every news service in the world

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 04:57:34 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
<fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>But here we have the self-styled "professor" Frank Krygowsky,

>lately a factory maintenance instructor at some no-count provincial college...

I did a bit of searching on Google Groups to see if Frank had previous
referred to himself as "professor". I did not find any such
reference. He did mention several acquaintances, who are professors.
Google doesn't make searching easy, so I might have missed the article
where Frank declared himself to be a professor. Try your luck or find
a more accurate accusation:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=professor+author%3Afrank+author%3Akrygowski>

"Difference Between Lecturer and Professor - Lecturer Vs Professor"
<https://www.collegedisha.com/articles/difference-between-lecturer-and-professor>

Also, I've noticed that you and Tom are posting inaccurate and
insulting "information" about your targets for the day. I suspect you
both believe that if you continue to lie about someone, such as
calling Frank a "factory maintenance instructor", some of the lies
will be assumed to be correct by those not familiar with RBT. I
believe you refer to this as "bullying". I would appreciate it if you
would cease "bullying" in RBT and attempt to act in a manner more
consistent with your pretensions.

[AMuzi]

NATO has officially stated that the explosions were
'sabotage' and that 'collective response' will be
forthcoming. NATO also notes that both explosions were in
international waters.

[Tom Kunich]

Are you trying to tell the experts all about this?

[AMuzi]

> Are you trying to tell the experts all about this?
>

Nope.

https://tinyurl.com/2p8fs7f4

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:40:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>NATO has officially stated that the explosions were
>'sabotage' and that 'collective response' will be
>forthcoming. NATO also notes that both explosions were in
>international waters.

Please forgive my suspicious nature, but I'm temporarily ignoring such
declarations from organizations who are very quick to assign blame,
without offering even a clue as to why they think it's sabotage:

"The NATO Invitees associate themselves with this Statement."
<https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_207733.htm>
"All currently available information indicates that this is the result
of deliberate, reckless, and irresponsible acts of sabotage."

Ok, so where is this information? Am I suppose to take NATO's word at
face value? Notice they were careful not to mention Russia.

I'm fairly sure there will be more information available after the
NATO saber rattling dies down, and an investigation is initiated.

[Tom Kunich]

Then perhaps people like Slocumb and Liebermann should stop considering themselves experts because they can get 10% of the story from Google.

[AMuzi]

On 9/30/2022 1:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:40:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> NATO has officially stated that the explosions were
>> 'sabotage' and that 'collective response' will be
>> forthcoming. NATO also notes that both explosions were in
>> international waters.
>
> Please forgive my suspicious nature, but I'm temporarily ignoring such
> declarations from organizations who are very quick to assign blame,
> without offering even a clue as to why they think it's sabotage:
>
> "The NATO Invitees associate themselves with this Statement."
> <https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_207733.htm>
> "All currently available information indicates that this is the result
> of deliberate, reckless, and irresponsible acts of sabotage."
>
> Ok, so where is this information? Am I suppose to take NATO's word at
> face value? Notice they were careful not to mention Russia.
>
> I'm fairly sure there will be more information available after the
> NATO saber rattling dies down, and an investigation is initiated.
>

I thought it was humorous in a 'satire of bureaucracy' sort
of way.

'Sabotage by whom?' remains unanswered and the usual
translation of 'collective response' is a series of
meetings, hearings, study groups but never action.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 14:34:19 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/30/2022 1:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:40:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> NATO has officially stated that the explosions were
>>> 'sabotage' and that 'collective response' will be
>>> forthcoming. NATO also notes that both explosions were in
>>> international waters.
>>
>> Please forgive my suspicious nature, but I'm temporarily ignoring such
>> declarations from organizations who are very quick to assign blame,
>> without offering even a clue as to why they think it's sabotage:
>>
>> "The NATO Invitees associate themselves with this Statement."
>> <https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_207733.htm>
>> "All currently available information indicates that this is the result
>> of deliberate, reckless, and irresponsible acts of sabotage."
>>
>> Ok, so where is this information? Am I suppose to take NATO's word at
>> face value? Notice they were careful not to mention Russia.
>>
>> I'm fairly sure there will be more information available after the
>> NATO saber rattling dies down, and an investigation is initiated.

>I thought it was humorous in a 'satire of bureaucracy' sort
>of way.

More like a caricature of bureaucracy. Such press releases are
usually the result of pre-processing by a large committee.

Incidentally, I had some difficulty decoding the title. What was a
NATO invitee? Apparently, it's the new countries that were ostensibly
invited to join NATA but have not been officially recognized as a
member. It took me a few milliseconds to realize why they were in the
title. These countries are all form Soviet Bloc Eastern European
countries, the same countries that angered Putin enough to invade
Ukraine. I guess whomever wrote the press release wanted to anger
Putin, or at least get his attention:
<https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/19/two-maps-show-natos-growth-and-russias-growing-isolation-since-1990.html>

>'Sabotage by whom?' remains unanswered and the usual
>translation of 'collective response' is a series of
>meetings, hearings, study groups but never action.

Oh, I think there will likely be many conspiracy theories and
prospective culprits. I could easily be accused of providing one such
theory in this thread. Like the multitude of Kennedy Assassination
theories, the more preposterous the theory, the more press coverage it
will receive. Was it sabotage by space aliens, Amazon, Google,
Democrats, Republicans, radicals, dissidents, nationalists,
anarchists, presidential candidates, zombies, etc? Never mind trying
to dream up more likely culprits and theories. Just give the problem
to a teenager, and you'll soon be reading the latest theories and
horror stories in RBT courtesy of super spreaders Andre and Tom.

[Sepp Ruf]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> On 9/30/2022 1:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>>> "The NATO Invitees associate themselves with this Statement."

> Incidentally, I had some difficulty decoding the title. What was a
> NATO invitee? Apparently, it's the new countries that were ostensibly
> invited to join NATA but have not been officially recognized as a
> member. It took me a few milliseconds to realize why they were in the
> title. These countries are all form Soviet Bloc Eastern European
> countries

No, Jeff, not really.
<https://nypost.com/2022/06/29/nato-formally-invites-finland-sweden-to-join-alliance/>
Just enjoy being far away from it. If you really want to learn more,
send Francis to Gdynia, and Bornholm, to pose as a Canadian researcher
and lecturer on bicycle facilities, and to leisurely chat with the
fishermen whose stories of witnessed naval traffic, and Seahawks
enjoying the moonless nights, will grow ever more gripping with each
drunken night that followed.

--
<https://alive-ag.de/media/image/49/b3/c5/Nacht-Fiel-Ueber-Gotenhafen-08_Kineos_NACHT_FIEL_UEBER_GOTENHAFEN_copyright_Kineos.jpg>

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/28/2022 1:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> Checking my Gmail around I see that Krygowski who has proven wrong on
>> every single thing he has said in 20 years is presently pretending
>> that his God - Biden - would NEVER say directly that he would commit
>> an international act of terrorism after saying he would.
>>
>> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo
>
> :-)  Ah, Tom! I suspected you got your delusion from Tucker Carlson,
> World's Whackiest News Propagandist!
>
> Now to prove your point, please highlight the _quotation_ of President
> Biden saying he would blow up that pipeline. Note, I'm not interested in
> Tucker Carlson's pretending or rephrasing, because Carlson is as crazy
> as you. I'm interested in a direct Biden quotation.
>
> Here's a hint to help your dismal reading comprehension: When Carlson
> ends a sentence with a question mark, as in "So once again, did the
> Biden administration really do this?" it is NOT a statement of fact.
> It's a hypothetical and inflammatory question intended to suck in idiot
> right wing "true believers." And predictably, it worked on you.
>
> Oddly, other people don't seem to blame Biden.
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-lawmakers-break-europes-silence-105844953.html
> They tend to suspect Russia. But Carlson and his disciples are willing
> to attack Biden in order to protect their true love, Putin.

Some corroboration of what I said above: First, Tom's wild implications,
blaming Biden for blowing up the pipeline, did originate with Tucker
Carlson. No surprise there.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/wild-baseless-claims-biden-blew-185612325.html

"Within hours, the claim was being promoted by far-right influencers in
the US, and pushed by the network of Russian state media networks,
despite a lack of credible evidence that US warships or operatives had
taken part."

Also: "Carlson's coverage of the war in Ukraine has consistently aligned
with that of Russia's government. He is part of a segment of the
American right that is blithely uninterested in the suffering of
Ukrainians, credulous of Vladimir Putin's stated motivations, and
generally more interested in denouncing the US government than the
Russian one."

And so we have Tom, who accuses others of being communists, sucking down
any nonsense from a pro-Putin talking head and echoing what the Russian
propaganda machine pumps out on state-run media.

But Tom's too dim to realize he's been recruited to work for Putin.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 9/30/2022 4:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/28/2022 1:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Checking my Gmail around I see that Krygowski who has
>>> proven wrong on every single thing he has said in 20
>>> years is presently pretending that his God - Biden -
>>> would NEVER say directly that he would commit an
>>> international act of terrorism after saying he would.
>>>
>>> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo
>>>
>>

>> :-)Â Ah, Tom! I suspected you got your delusion from

January 2022 was only eight months ago:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60151839

In February, a week or so later:
https://www.newsweek.com/video-biden-saying-end-nord-stream-resurfaces-after-pipeline-leak-1747005

I don't know.
I've heard a lot of theories (such as Poland, who recently
opened their new Denmark-Poland pipeline) none of which have
convinced me. Yet.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:53:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/28/2022 1:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/28/2022 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Checking my Gmail around I see that Krygowski who has proven wrong on
>>> every single thing he has said in 20 years is presently pretending
>>> that his God - Biden - would NEVER say directly that he would commit
>>> an international act of terrorism after saying he would.
>>>
>>> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo
>>
>> :-)  Ah, Tom! I suspected you got your delusion from Tucker Carlson,
>> World's Whackiest News Propagandist!

I suspect Krygowski prefers Joy Ried or Don Lemon for his news..

[John B.]

Yes, I read that but the Norwegian oil fields are a long way from the
pipeline.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

'A long way' tactically, but 'in the sector' strategically.

[Frank Krygowski]

I also don't know details of the pipeline attack. That's not my point.
My point is that Tom swallows anything Tucker Carlson ejaculates. And
that Tucker Carlson will do Putin's bidding if he thinks it will help
his ratings.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 19:58:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/30/2022 6:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/30/2022 4:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/28/2022 1:13 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/28/2022 12:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Checking my Gmail around I see that Krygowski who has
>>>>> proven wrong on every single thing he has said in 20
>>>>> years is presently pretending that his God - Biden -
>>>>> would NEVER say directly that he would commit an
>>>>> international act of terrorism after saying he would.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-what-happened-nord-stream-pipeline?yptr=yahoo
>>>>>
>>>>

>>>> :-)  Ah, Tom! I suspected you got your delusion from

Tucker loves it that the lefty loons hate him, and indeed, like most
Fox news shows, he owns cable news at his time slot.

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 09:06:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

You keep talking about a "pig" but that is probably the most unlikely
idea possible as to insert a pig in a pipeline one needs access to the
"pig launcher" which is a chamber large enough to hold a pig see
http://www.jamisonproducts.com/pipeline-products/pig-launchers-receivers.html
https://f-e-t.com/production-equipment/gas-processing-treating-midstream/pig-launchers-and-receivers/
and located at each end of the pipeline.
And "pigging a line" is somewhat of a project as launching the pig is
only part of the project. Pressures have to be maintained with in
certain ranges as too little pressure and the pig stops, and now you
have a stuck pig somewhere in the pipeline.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well Tommy, I can't speak for Jeff but yes, I am a bit of an expert as
I have built pipe lines, for both oil and gas.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

His viewership proves that idiots abound.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I think that the Norwegian oil fields are largely in the North Sea and
the Norwegian Sea. Quite a way from the Nord Stream pipeline which is
relatively close to Poland and N. Germany. On the "other side of
Norway and Sweden, so to speak.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

The theory does seem to lack even a hint of factual support. On the
other hand, there are many ways to affect pipeline operations, by
infiltrating the control hardware. Here's a story about a Russian
pipeline explosion from 1982:

https://tinyurl.com/muy44mvm

https://www-telegraph-co-uk.translate.goog/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1455559/CIA-plot-led-to-huge-blast-in-Siberian-gas-pipeline.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[Radey Shouman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> writes:

> On 9/29/2022 10:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 22:52:31 -0400, Radey Shouman
>> <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>

>> The Nord Stream pipeline is said to be at 80 - 110 meters.
>>
>

> The pipelines aren't moving, the positions are known and so descent
> rate is immaterial. Despite various impedimenta someone did
> successfully breach them.

The water is always moving. Faster descent means less deflection by
current. Think of windage for bullets in air.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 08:15:10 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

(Chomp)

>I think that the Norwegian oil fields are largely in the North Sea and
>the Norwegian Sea. Quite a way from the Nord Stream pipeline which is
>relatively close to Poland and N. Germany. On the "other side of
>Norway and Sweden, so to speak.

This map might help. However, it only shows data to Mar 30, 2022:
<https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiNWIxYWYzNzYtMDY3My00NTQ0LThiYzMtOWYwOTZjNTc5Njg1IiwidCI6IjgxMDU4NGZkLTY5ZjktNDEzNy1hNmExLWMwZTMzMjgwYjE1YyIsImMiOjh9>
<https://gasdashboard.entsog.eu>
Note that the map is 3 pages on the PDF. Click on the "1 of 3" at the
bottom of the window. Looks like gas from Norway goes to several
European nations (UK, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium and France).

Note that Norway and Ukraine are not members of ENTSOG but rather are
"observers":
<https://entsog.eu/sites/default/files/2022-06/entsog_members_map_2206.pdf>

[AMuzi]

I couldn't find a number in km quickly but from the pipeline
breaches across the jutland to a large number of rigs is not
a great distance for unmanned aerial reconnaissance, 350,
maybe 400km roughly.

[AMuzi]

>>>>> hull breach) of only 9.8–13.1 ft (3–4 m) against a conventional

>>>>> 1000-ton submarine, while the disablement radius (where the submarine

>>>>> is not sunk but is put out of commission) would be approximately 26–33
>>>>> ft (8–10 m). A larger payload increases the radius only slightly

>>>>> because the effect of an underwater explosion decreases as the cube of
>>>>> the distance to the target.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_charge#Effectiveness
>>>>
>>>> Those radii seem pretty small to me. I can easily imagine a depth
>>>> charge drifting horizontally more than 10 feet, due to current and so
>>>> forth. I'll bet the pipeline was quite a bit tougher than a WW II sub,
>>>
>>> The Royal Navy Type D depth charge was designated the "Mark VII" in
>>> 1939.Initial sinking speed was 7 ft/s (2.1 m/s) with a terminal
>>> velocity of 9.9 ft/s (3.0 m/s) at a depth of 250 ft (76 m) Cast iron
>>> weights of 150 lb (68 kg) were attached to the Mark VII at the end of
>>> 1940 to increase sinking velocity to 16.8 ft/s (5.1 m/s) The Mark
>>> VII's 290 lb (130 kg) amatol charge was estimated to be capable of
>>> splitting a 7/8 in (22 mm) submarine pressure hull at a distance of 20
>>> ft (6.1 m).
>>>
>>> The Nord Stream pipeline is said to be at 80 - 110 meters.
>>>
>>
>> The pipelines aren't moving, the positions are known and so descent
>> rate is immaterial. Despite various impedimenta someone did
>> successfully breach them.
>
> The water is always moving. Faster descent means less deflection by
> current. Think of windage for bullets in air.
>

Good point.
I assume someone skilled and motivated would allow for that
right?

[John B.]

From Bergen to Rostock is 816 km and from Bergen to the North Sea oil
fields about 150 km so a total (depending on where the break occurred)
of, maybe 960 km. (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

There is absolutely nothing that gives Tucker more pleasure than the hopeless hatred that insolent fools like pretend "professors" like Francis posing as experts of everything in this world disliking him when they cannot dispute one word that he says.

Tell you what Francis you helpless and hopeless ass - Tucker is perfectly willing to debate you and your sick ideas on any public forum of your choosing. Might I suggest you tell him that the mRNA vaccines do not cause Myelitis or Pericarditis? I mean, after you proved the rest of us so convincingly that you knew what you were talking about what could be a better subject. Or perhaps you could tell him that Trump said that people could cure covid-19 by drinking bleach. If nothing else you have literally thousands of ideas like that for which you've been attempting to convince the rest of us with the able assistance of idiots like Liebermann, Slocumb, Scharf and other laughing stocks of your own intellectual grade.

[Tom Kunich]

That is one of the world's busiest cargo routes and it is under radar control 24/7. A ship couldn't even slow down without it being detected and logged. A B2 has a radar cross section of a box a wedding ring comes in and the only way that they can target anything in that area is with the overwhelming speed of delivery. And it would leave evidence on ALL of the radar records. I wouldn't want to go into other things but believe me, there is NOTHING that goes on in the Black Sea above water than isn't known.
And the water is so shallow at about 600 feet deepest that very few undersea craft would be able to remain undetected. And don't believe this garbage about AI drones. Remember way back when I told you that I was interviewed by Tesla about working on their "self driving program" and I pissed the interviewer off by telling him that they should use a name that didn't imply that the car could drive itself? Since then there's been some 240+ deaths due to people allowing these cars to drive themselves. The drones are 100 times less reliable because no one could oversee them. And you couldn't have communications of any kind in the area.

[John B.]

Whatever are you going on about Tommy? The Black Sea?

Nobody was talking about the "Black Sea" it was the Baltic Sea on the
other side of the continent where the Nord Sea Pipeline was built.
The Baltic Sea - where the pipeline was built, has an average depth of
180 ft.

As for radar coverage, the Baltic Sea is surrounded by nine countries:
Denmark, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Russia, Finland
and Sweden. Tell us which country is doing the radar coverage.

>And the water is so shallow at about 600 feet deepest that very few undersea craft would be able to remain undetected. And don't believe this garbage about AI drones. Remember way back when I told you that I was interviewed by Tesla about working on their "self driving program" and I pissed the interviewer off by telling him that they should use a name that didn't imply that the car could drive itself? Since then there's been some 240+ deaths due to people allowing these cars to drive themselves. The drones are 100 times less reliable because no one could oversee them. And you couldn't have communications of any kind in the area.

As for drones? MQ-9 Reaper, which offers more capabilities. That
includes visual sensors with a wide range of sight – laser, infrared,
and full motion video – to be the “eyes in the sky.” It has a range of
1,150 miles and a ceiling of 50,000 feet in altitude, and has been
used in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Libya, and Mali as of
2015. Flown from a base in Nevada.

Tell us Tommy, where do you get these fantasies? Funny cigarettes?
Sniffing the white stuff? Or have you fallen back on the old faithful
bottle of booze?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 12:43:21 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>As for radar coverage, the Baltic Sea is surrounded by nine countries:
>Denmark, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Russia, Finland
>and Sweden. Tell us which country is doing the radar coverage.

All of them via the MONALISA 2.0 system:
<https://www.seatrafficmanagement.info/projects/monalisa-2/>
<https://www.seatrafficmanagement.info/projects/stm-balt-safe/>

Oddly, there doesn't seem to be much marine traffic near the area in
question, around the island of Bornholm. Most of the traffic goes
north of the island:
<https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:14.5/centery:55.3/zoom:8>
Click on any vessel for details.

Traffic map:
<https://www.vesselfinder.com>
Find the Baltic area and click on "Density Map -> All Types" (icon on
the left edge of the page) to see the traffic lanes.

Instead of radar, commercial shipping use AIS for vessel tracking:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_system>
In the Baltic, if something appears on the radar that is not also on
the AIS system, the local coast guard will attempt to identify the
vessel. Military vessels will typically announce their location via
AIS, but will sometimes spoof their location:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_identification_system#Spoofing>

In the Baltic, vessel traffic is managed by the IMO which requires all
vessels to be AIS equipped:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Maritime_Organization>
Procedures for collision avoidance and traffic control use Sweden's
STM or MONALISA 2.0 system:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_traffic_management>
Videos on what it does and how it works:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vsswV29uuA&list=UU-CJSsJzqB_MwP1Nkl6m4zg&index=1&t=0s>
Submarines can be AIS equipped:
<https://www.scires.com/What-We-Do/Products/AIS>
<https://professionalmariner.com/true-heading-ais-receivers-to-be-used-on-us-submarines/>

If it floats in the Baltic, it will be identified and tracked.

[John B.]

On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 00:43:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Sp Tommy got one right, did he? That is, what's the score now? 4 right
in 17 years?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 20:14:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/30/2022 8:02 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 19:58:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I also don't know details of the pipeline attack. That's not my point.
>>> My point is that Tom swallows anything Tucker Carlson ejaculates. And
>>> that Tucker Carlson will do Putin's bidding if he thinks it will help
>>> his ratings.
>>
>>
>> Tucker loves it that the lefty loons hate him, and indeed, like most
>> Fox news shows, he owns cable news at his time slot.
>
>His viewership proves that idiots abound.

People do love hearing him rip leftists into shreds. I know I do, but
to be fair, nowdays Greg Gutfield has become my favorite poitical
show. He does it with humor and is regularly the highest rated late
night show beating not just cable news competition, but also the big
network shows.

[Andre Jute]

Outfield is a genuinely funny man. He'd be funny even of he were a leftwing creepy. (How long they would allow a man whose jokes they don't understand a voice, is another matter.) But here's a challenge: name one (1) leftie or bolshie comedian, excluding Bill Maher, who is starting to see the light, who is still funny. I'll understand if you don't even try because you already know the answer. -- AJ
>

[Andre Jute]

All you guys who still think of yourselves as Christians or decent people should feel sorry for the fake "professor" Franki-boy. Imagine how he will feel for eight eternal years when, after President Trump's second term, and Governor DeSantis's two terms, Tucker Carlson becomes president.
>
Andre Jute
I'll have to practice a whole lot before I become that good.

[AMuzi]

Some British sources are hinting at prepositioned explosives
with remote detonation.

https://www.businessinsider.com/nord-stream-pipelines-attacked-remote-explosives-uk-intelligence-2022-9?op=1

But again no evidence so it's all yet conjecture.