Which rims for Big Apple?

[Andre Jute]

Anyone with experience of Scwalbe's Big Apple tyre?

1.Is it true that the Big Apple is a good substitute for a suspension
fork and a suspended setpost?

2. What size tyre? What size rim? What make rim?

3. What size rim would in your opinion be better?

4. Anyone else with an opinion of what width and which make of rim
would be best for Big Apple in 50mm and 60mm widths?

****
For the record, according to Schwalbe's FAQ, E|RTRO says you can fit
tyres up to 62mm on 21mm rims. And you can even fit them on 17 to 19mm
rims, if you do not inflate above certain limits )eg 45psi for a 60mm
tyre).

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20%26%20CYCLING.html

[Tom Sherman]

Andre Jute wrote:
> Anyone with experience of Sc[h]walbe's Big Apple tyre?

>
> 1.Is it true that the Big Apple is a good substitute for a suspension
> fork and a suspended setpost?
>
>
> 2. What size tyre? What size rim? What make rim?
>
>
> 3. What size rim would in your opinion be better?
>
> 4. Anyone else with an opinion of what width and which make of rim
> would be best for Big Apple in 50mm and 60mm widths?

> ...

Mr. Colina, Mr. Jute is on line 1.

"Yep. There's nothing else like them (though with any luck that will
change in due time). It's a real shame that only a few bikes to date
are able to fit them." [1] - Chalo commenting on the Schwalbe Big Apple
60-622 tire on RBT.

[1]
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/7d1c60b04448e4aa/34d65721d1e1802e?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=chalo+big+apple#34d65721d1e1802e>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

[tiborg]

I had the opportunity recently to set up my father's old Trek 850 with
a pair of 60-559 Big Apples. My normal bike is a Giant Reign 3 with
47-559 on the rear and 35-559 on the front (both kept around 40-50
psi), so I was interested to see how the 60mm tires compared to the
Reign's suspension. I pumped the Big Apples to around their minimum
recommended pressure so they would give me the very soft ride, but on
the really poorly kept roads I was riding them on, it was still quite
a bouncy ride. I couldn't ride at my normal 30kph off curbs and over
pot holes without getting out of the seat. Also at that pressure there
was noticeable bounce when I put a lot of force into the pedals. So
maybe compared to very short travel suspensions they might be an
adequate substitution, but they're nothing like a nice FS bike.

[Lou Holtman]

Agreed. For a noticeable suspension you need to go very low on pressure.
The front handling is very poor then.

Lou

[Michael Press]

In article
<139f170e-5c59-4907...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anyone with experience of Scwalbe's Big Apple tyre?
>
> 1.Is it true that the Big Apple is a good substitute for a suspension
> fork and a suspended setpost?

Compared to what? A 25 mm tire at 8 bar? Perhaps.

--
Michael Press

[Chalo]

Andre Jute wrote:
>
> Anyone with experience of Scwalbe's Big Apple tyre?

Yep. I've used 60-559, 60-622, and 50-622 sizes extensively, and I
have some experience with the 60-406 size. For the purposes of this
discussion I'm going to limit myself to commenting on the 60-559 and
60-622 sizes, since they are the ones that really stand apart from the
usual selections in those rim diameters. I'd only use the 50mm
versions if my bike was unable to fit the 60mm ones.

> 1.Is it true that the Big Apple is a good substitute for a suspension
> fork and a suspended setpost?

Yes, in that they can attenuate shocks to a similar degree (similar to
a telescopic seatpost, anyway). But you have to run very low
pressures to get that sort of benefit from them, and how low you can
safely go depends on how wide your rims are.

I weigh about 350 lbs., and I can run these tires on relatively crappy
city streets at 2 bar, or about 29 psi. I have had no pinch flats to
date at such pressure. Rolling resistance at 29 psi is surprisingly
OK; while I'm sure it is slower than at the tires' max 65 psi rating,
I don't notice a speed difference. I only notice a difference in
cushiness and in handling/traction.

> 2. What size tyre? What size rim? What make rim?

My favorite size of the Big Apple is 60-622 or 29 x 2.35". Between
the width of the tire, the flexibility of the tire, and the diameter
of the wheel, I've found no better ride quality in the cycling world.
It bridges gaps, absorbs bumps, steps up gently onto raised edges, and
finds a secure footing on irregular surfaces like no other street
tire.

I've run the 60-622 Big Apple on three kinds of rims: Mavic T519 (an
ordinary touring bike rim), Sun Rhyno Lite 700c (a 27.5mm wide MTB
rim) and Kris Holm 29er mountain unicycle rim (a 38mm wide downhill-
style rim). Not surprisingly, it works best on the widest rim. It is
on the 38mm wide rim that I can use sub-30 psi pressures without
noticing any lateral casing deflection in hard corners. The Sun Rhyno
Lite is almost as good in that regard, but mounted on the Mavic rim
the tire is significantly less stable at high lean angles. However,
the tire's shock absorbtion seems slightly better at any given
pressure when the tire is mounted on the narrower rim.

http://www.unicycle.uk.com/shop/shopdisplayproduct.asp?catalogid=674
http://www.ebikestop.com/sun_rhyno_lite_700c_36h_black_rim_w_silver_sides_presta_valve-RM8438.php

> 3. What size rim would in your opinion be better?

Diameter? 700c, no question.

> 4. Anyone else with an opinion of what width and which make of rim
> would be best for Big Apple in 50mm and 60mm widths?

Width? Something wide; I'm not sure it matters all that much. I
understand that there are a lot more wide stadtfiets-type rims
available in Europe than there are here in the States. Anything from
622-20 on up should be appropriate. In the USA, that pretty much
limits the choices to just the Sun Rhyno Lite 700c and the Kris Holm
29er.

For 26" rims, the choices get a lot more accommodating. Sun Metal
alone offers the Rhyno Lite, Rhyno Lite XL, Mammoth, King Pin, Double
Wide, Single Wide, Double Track, and probably others that are all
559-21 or wider. There is a bewildering proliferation of wide rims
intended for downhill and jumping MTBs, but many of these have no
brake tracks and must be used with hub brakes. For best ride quality,
I would not bother with any rim wider than about 559-35.

Chalo

[Chalo]

Lou Holtman wrote:

>
> tiborg wrote:
> >
> > So
> > maybe compared to very short travel suspensions they might be an
> > adequate substitution, but they're nothing like a nice FS bike.
>
> Agreed. For a noticeable suspension you need to go very low on pressure.
> The front handling is very poor then.

For good handling, ride quality, and traction at low tire pressures,
the rim width must be a good match to the tire width. When the inside
width of the rim is about half of the tire's inflated width, the tire
should be quite stable at any ridable pressure while still allowing
decent compliance over bumps. At the same time, the soft tire's
ability to conform to the contours of the ground surface provides
additional traction.

I have a mountain bike fitted with 26 x 3.0 siped slicks mounted on
45mm wide rims. Despite my approximately 350 pound weight, I can run
these tires at 16-18 psi for a very soft ride. At the same pressures,
the traction this bike offers in corners is superior to that of any
other bike I have ridden. Sometimes I use higher pressures up to 40
psi to diminish rolling resistance, but there are no discernible
handling benefits from doing so.

Chalo

[Ned Mantei]

In article
<139f170e-5c59-4907...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anyone with experience of Scwalbe's Big Apple tyre?
>
> 1.Is it true that the Big Apple is a good substitute for a suspension
> fork and a suspended setpost?
>
>

My every day/commute bike has 2-inch (50-559) Schwalbe Marathon tires,
which are similar to the Big Apple. Although fine on unpaved roads,
there is still much more vibration/shaking compared to my mountain bike
with front suspension fork. But compared to my old commute bike with
700x28C, the wider tires are far more comfortable (and also safer, I
think), and in the city I don't worry about potholes or a tire getting
caught in tram tracks. Any difference in speed or rolling resistance is
so minor that I don't notice it.

So 25 years later I have overcome my indoctrination by Eugene Sloan's
"Complete Book of Bicycling".

Ned

[Tom Sherman]

Indeed. I often had comments from roadies on how wide my 32-406 tires
were, so I of course replaced them with 47-406 tires for better ride,
traction, handling and decreased rolling resistance.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 06:48:42 -0500, Tom Sherman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> I often had comments from roadies

Where are you riding? On trails? In fields?

[Tom Sherman]

On paved roads (mostly) on a bicycle that looks a lot like this:
<http://www.icehouse.net/jim_d/gifs/rocket.jpg>.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:43:49 -0500, Tom Sherman
<sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 06:48:42 -0500, Tom Sherman
>> <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I often had comments from roadies
>>
>> Where are you riding? On trails? In fields?
>
>On paved roads (mostly) on a bicycle that looks a lot like this:
><http://www.icehouse.net/jim_d/gifs/rocket.jpg>.

LOL

[Chalo]

On Jul 6, 4:03 am, Ned Mantei <man...@cell.biol.ethz.ch> wrote:
> In article
> <139f170e-5c59-4907-a6e3-382b5ee84...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,

>  Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone with experience of Scwalbe's Big Apple tyre?
>
> > 1.Is it true that the Big Apple is a good substitute for a suspension
> > fork and a suspended setpost?
>
> My every day/commute bike has 2-inch (50-559) Schwalbe Marathon tires,
> which are similar to the Big Apple.  

There are many Schwalbe tires called "Marathon", but the most popular
of them are stiffer tires than the Big Apple that have more rolling
resistance when run at very low pressure. And low pressure is key to
a tire's suspension effects.

> Although fine on unpaved roads,
> there is still much more vibration/shaking compared to my mountain bike
> with front suspension fork.

A suspension fork usually has constant-spring-rate travel of between 2
and 7 inches. Stiction (the fork's initial resistance to movement)
can be insignificant or bothersome depending on the specifics
characteristics of the fork. Bottoming a suspension fork is
uncomfortable but not usually damaging.

A tire has, in effect, sharply rising spring rate and travel that
maxes out at the height of the sidewall (in the case of the Big Apple,
about 2 inches). In fork terms, the suspension travel even less than
that-- it is the difference between the tire's sidewall height and the
height of the tire that would otherwise be used. Tires do not have
stiction, but tires with very stiff sidewalls can display a sort of
resistance to being squashed that is comparable to a small amount of
stiction. Bottoming a tire usually flats the tire and sometimes
damages the wheel.

For these reasons, the suspension action of a fat tire is more
comparable to that of a very short-travel suspension such as the
Cannondale Silk Road fork or the Moots YBB rear wishbone. And a fat
tire offers this much suspension along with the benefits of low added
weight, high reliability, increased traction, increased tire wear
life, and longer intervals between tire top-up.

Chalo

Chalo

[Santiago Perez]

¿Big Apples similar to Marathons? Yes, they're both round. ;-)

[Andre Jute]

It was fun reading again this old thread which Santiago has revived. Since I asked the question, I had a decade and more of experience on 60x622 Big Apples, and I don't even consider other tyres. My replacement Big Apples already stand on top of my bookshelf. On another forum I published an extended set of experiences and opinions on the Big Apples:
In praise of riding low pressure tyres fast
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3798.msg16360#msg16360

Andre Jute
Chalo Colina is one smart cookie

[Roger Merriman]

I rate them as well, on my commute bike, a older MTB with panniers and so
on.

Do have a lovely ride quality for what is a hard wearing/glass shrugging
off tyre, and makes what is a heavy bike feel lively and fun to ride.

Would a MTB XC tyres give similar feel grip? Yes but it would also be
threadbare in under 4 months with the miles i clock up, and in probability
would get got by some glass/thorns etc.

It does though slide somewhat as my routes become wetter, even more than
things like Marathon plus Touring and the like, still passable but does
drift a bit, and yes MTB XC/Gravel tyres can just rail that stuff.

But they are as dependable as the Marathon plus touring, probably does wear
a bit faster but still fairly okay at 5k generally commute tyres don’t wear
out but reach a point of having too many war scars for me to trust anymore!

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

Mine made 8500km, c5000m, with the rear tire worn smooth and the front still having tread all round. Schwalbe says one can wear the Big Apples until the anti-puncture strip of rubber shows all round. I don't doubt that is right, but I was unifying the differential service intervals between components, so I fitted a new pair.

Andre Jute
Schwalbe, patron saint of cyclists

[Tosspot]

I'd like to give them a try but on the Surly LHT with mudguards, the M+
Tour 622x47mm *just* fit under the mudguard. I suppose I could build a
559mm to try, but that's excessive :-(

[Andre Jute]

The bigger the rim you fit the Big Apples on in both diameter and width, and the wider the tyre you fit, in short, the more air in you Big Apples, the better they get because the lower the pressure you need to inflate to. Chalo Colina, who pulled the scales north or 350 pounds, rode 60x622 Big Apples at 2bar, about 29psi! The late builder of the most commercially viable Pedersen bike (now built by Utopia), Kalle Kalkhoff thought it so important to fit the 60mm 622 that he built a special bike without mudguards to cram them in. Presumably he rode it only on sunshine days.

You do know that some of the Marathon tyres around the 47mm mark are kissing cousins of the Big Apple, don't you? I don't know which ones -- the whole Marathon scene is a movable feast which even includes the Big Apple -- but some tourers that I hang out with have had agreeable effects from lowing tyre pressure all round in various touring Marathon (something)s. The thread I linked was actually started by me when it became the Thorn official policy to promote lower pressures -- I hadn't mentioned it before because I thought every cyclist who was paying attention was past the "16bar and more if you have the beef to pump more" stage of Neanderthal prestige through suffering stage; I was quite shocked when I found out different here on RBT. (A lot of what braindead but pompous cyclists like Franki-boy and Rideablot see as trolling is simply because I never bothered to become imbued with all that ancient cycling wisdom -- which is neither relevant, nor wise. As a consequence I don't even know that I'm sawing off one of their totem poles at the ankles until they start squawking. Not that knowing would stop me, of course. They're the ones out of step, not me.) You should read that entire thread, and elsewhere on the same forum where we discussed Berto's idea of regulating the correct tyre pressure whatever the load as 15% rim drop. Personally, I pump my Big Apples at the beginning of the month to 2.15bar with an electric pump with a presettable cutout, and ride them until the end of the month when they're down to about 1.6bar and none the worse for it. I don't see the point of riding on Big Apples or whatever pricey tyre floats your boat if it requires you to fuss with the tyre pressure more often than once a month. I've been riding Schwalbe's puncture resisting tyres for about 20 years now, and in another twenty the memory of the crappy, overpriced tyres I rode before will, I hope, start to fade.

Andre Jute
You don't have to be weird to be a cyclist, but it is a good start.

[Roger Merriman]

I don’t think I’d risk going so low!

The rear still has tread just not as much as when new or even compared to
the front, both are picking up war wounds, seems plenty of life thus far.

I tend to replace as needed and track using Strava oddly one of the things
that goes quite frequently is stuff like seat clamps, front wheel QR etc.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

I run a bit higher with the big apples 26/2in found for the commute bike so
heavy, plus varied terrain including kerb hopping, that 40psi was the sweet
spot, comfortable without excessive squirming.

I check them once a week or so.

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

My Big Apples don't squirm even at the lowest inflation at the end of the month. But I should have noted that Chalo runs on 38mm wide rims, inside measurement, which he sources in the mountain unicycle market, and I run on 25mm wide rims, inside measurement, and furthermore that the Big Apples were designed on the assumption that users will fit them to rims at least 40 percent as wide as the nominal width of the tyre.

Andre Jute
Fast from the top of the mountain

[Roger Merriman]

Not measured the rims on the commute beast but they are MTB wheels if a old
design, so I’d expect them to be close to the 40%

It’s my commute bike, so heavy with panniers and bar bag, I do also dislike
sidewall squirm ie I tend to the firmer end.

At 40psi while I can feel it shift somewhat on detritus on the bike paths,
and deflects somewhat on kerbs etc, fine but needs to be careful not to rim
strike. Unlike stuff like the Marathon plus Touring which have very solid
sidewalls.

It’s the compromise which I’ll take! the Big Apples are far nicer to ride,
but the sidewalls are much less supported.

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

I doubt you'll get the same compliant ride without the soft ("folding") sidewalls. These soft sidewalls used to be available only on a special, more expensive version of the Big Apple, about ten, twelve years ago, but they were so successful, Schwalbe rebuilt the entire Big Apple range around them.

Andre Jute
Hedonist

[Roger Merriman]

Well yes that’s what I just posted ;-)

To be honest though nice MTB tyres such as I have on the Trail bike such as
Hans Dampf are as comfortable yet supportive but then double the price!

Roger Merriman