top mount vs rapidfire vs rapid fire plus? HELP
Mike W. / Karl F.
rapidfire shifters and plan to replace the top mounts on a Dale with rapid
fire XT's. What are the advantages to the top mounts and what are the
advantages to the rapid fires. I just can't see being able to shift quickly
and confidently when clinging to the handle bars on a rocky downhill, or
being able to shift fastenough when I have underestimated the slop of an
incline with top mounts. And is there a real difference between rapid fire
and rapid fire plus?
Understand that I am no expert, so I can't substantiate my oppinions with
zillions of miles, i would just like to hear some oppinions before I sell
some DX top mounts.
Mike
Stephen Panarelli
One more small point. If you have top mount Shimano now, 1994 STI
shifters won't work! They are designed for the 8 speed dirs with
compression spring. (say mud build up!) The parallelgram bias and
rate is different in the new dirs. Shimano is proud of their planned
obsolescence.
I am biassed twords the old stuff. You can tell which gear you are in
by the force you must exert. Needle indicators are for...Beats me!!
My local shop will custom make you a pair of aluminum plates to cover
the needles on XT rapoidfires. Oh, the plastic breaks off anyway.
Steve!
--
_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ | Stephen Kemal Panarelli
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ | University of Nebraska
_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ | Electrical Engineering
_/ _/ _/ _/ | j...@unlinfo.unl.edu
_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ | pan...@yoda.unl.edu
Mark Lu
here are my ideas on what an ideal mtn shifter should be in no particular
order:
-should allow shifting through entire range of gears in a single action
for sharp changes in terrain grade
-should allow hands and thumb to wrap grip during shifting to prevent
being shaken off by a bump
-not misshift during bumpy situations while gripping handlebars
-not excessive tiring of hands for the many shifts on long rides
-indexed, of course, and accurate, of course
-allow quick shifting without looking at shifters even when not remember
what gear currently in
-easy to read (for shaky situations) visual display of what gear
currently in when looking in the forward direction of bike,
that does not add ANY extra weight (ok, maybe not)
-(almost forgot...) light weight!!!
am i close? i'm not sure if there is anything on the market that is
ideal, but some are close.
Matthew Yee
rapidfires have ONLY index shifting. top mounts on the other hand, have both
index and friction shifting (xt's at least do). having friction shifting is
good because if you're out on the trail and your indexing shifting gets out of
whack, you can switch to friction, which will allow you to feel around for the
gears, and you will still be able to make small adjustments. index shifting
does not allow you to do this. also, there are a few things which are just a
matter of personal preference. rapidfires shift one by one, whereas xt top
mounts can shift from the lowest ring to the highest ring w/ one action. this
is fast shifting, however there is a drawback; your gears will tend to wear
down faster when you do this.. he he... but if you like fast shifting, you
might wanna go with the top mounts... i haven't noticed any wear yet.
hope this helps. :)
matt
Bernard Breton
> having friction shifting is
> good because if you're out on the trail and your indexing shifting gets out of
> whack, you can switch to friction, which will allow you to feel around for the
> gears, and you will still be able to make small adjustments. index shifting
> does not allow you to do this. also, there are a few things which are just a
This is one of the porular arguments for top mounted shifter. I have
had top mount XT shifters since they were introduced around 87'. I
have NEVER had to use them in in friction mode. I regularly race my
bike. So it's safe to say that it gets beat up pretty nicely. There
has never been a case were I hade to resort to friction mode to make
the system work.
The custom bike that I am receiving in a few weeks will be outfitted
with XT rapid-fire shifters.
Bernard
--
<<< * >>>
| "Ask me the questions bridge keeper, I am not afraid!" |
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Theodore Chen
Stephen Panarelli <j...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
>I am biassed twords the old stuff. You can tell which gear you are in
>by the force you must exert. Needle indicators are for...Beats me!!
>My local shop will custom make you a pair of aluminum plates to cover
>the needles on XT rapoidfires. Oh, the plastic breaks off anyway.
i hate those optical indicators. i'm sure they don't weigh much,
but i'd be annoyed by their very presence if i had the rapidfire+
shifters. can you take a hacksaw to them? has anybody tried to
remove the optical indicators?
-teddy
Harry Phinney
: In article <2plisd$f...@crcnis1.unl.edu>,
: Stephen Panarelli <j...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
: >My local shop will custom make you a pair of aluminum plates to cover
: but i'd be annoyed by their very presence if i had the rapidfire+
: shifters.
I can't understand the vehement opposition to these indicators. I
believe I'd very much like such a feature on my STI road shifters. It
seems it would be convenient to be able to glance at the shifter to tell
whether I can click down one more on the back or need to down-shift the
front. Such a glance works with bar-end shifters, and with down tube
shifters you can tell once you get your hands on the shifters, but with
the STI shifters there's no way to tell short of looking back at the
cluster.
Harry Phinney ha...@cv.hp.com
Mr D.M. Whittle
I agree that they would also be useful off-road. Whilst I believe you should
be in the gear that feels comfortable, when you're trying to keep on top of
your gears so as to be in the right gear for the next obstacle (eg.multiple
down changes in anticipation of a killer climb), it can get a bit confusing
and I often have no idea which gear I've ended up in!! Perhaps it's just me.
dave
bui tho xuan
>: i hate those optical indicators. i'm sure they don't weigh much,
>: but i'd be annoyed by their very presence if i had the rapidfire+
>: shifters.
>
>I can't understand the vehement opposition to these indicators. I
>believe I'd very much like such a feature on my STI road shifters. It
>seems it would be convenient to be able to glance at the shifter to tell
>whether I can click down one more on the back or need to down-shift the
>front. Such a glance works with bar-end shifters, and with down tube
>shifters you can tell once you get your hands on the shifters, but with
>the STI shifters there's no way to tell short of looking back at the
>cluster.
>
my derailleur bikes, I often check the shifters to see what gear I'm
in... On old rf and rf+, you'd have to look at the derailleur--not
always a possible (winter coat in the way, tandems, down a busy trail).
The problem is with the construction quality of these indicators. The
lower end ones (I've tried LX and below) that are placed on stores'
test bikes seem to break with alarming frequency.
tho
TODD EDWARD TREAT
nney) writes:
>Theodore Chen (tede...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>: In article <2plisd$f...@crcnis1.unl.edu>,
>: Stephen Panarelli <j...@unlinfo.unl.edu> wrote:
>: >My local shop will custom make you a pair of aluminum plates to cover
>: >the needles on XT rapoidfires.
>: but i'd be annoyed by their very presence if i had the rapidfire+
>: shifters.
>
>I can't understand the vehement opposition to these indicators. I
>believe I'd very much like such a feature on my STI road shifters. It
>seems it would be convenient to be able to glance at the shifter to tell
>whether I can click down one more on the back or need to down-shift the
>front. Such a glance works with bar-end shifters, and with down tube
>shifters you can tell once you get your hands on the shifters, but with
>the STI shifters there's no way to tell short of looking back at the
>cluster.
>
>
I can speak from experience. I had thumbshifters. Then I had rapidfire
plus shifters with indicators. Then I had thumbshifters once again. The
indicators are useless. It is much quicker and easier to glance back at
your cassette than to try to read the indicators. You might say that you
shouldn't look back when you are in technical situations. I say if that
is the case you won't be able to read the indicators. Also, I broke three
rapidfire plus shifters. Luckily, one broke on a ride right after a race.
I have never had a problem with thumbshifters.
--
Todd E. Treat
chr...@cc.usu.edu
IMHO the shimano "shift windows" are useless to an advanced/expert rider. I
haven't the foggiest f**** clue why shimano would stick this on their XT
group. Why do I think they are useless? I just don't have the time when I am
hitting it hard to look down to see if I have an extra climbing gear, or speed
gear. I figure I should know by now how it feels to be in certain gears
in varying cadences and terain types. It took me a while to get used to toe
clips, then a while to get used to SPD's. Both require dexterity without the
benefit of eye coordination. For me gear ratios on ATB's require the same type
of feel. I also race motocross and I have not yet seen any MX bikes, esp my
KX250 with gear indicators. I just shift and apply different throttle
constantly to adjust to varying terrain. I feel that mountain biking requires
the same type of gearing and cadance adjustment to fit the "feel" of the
terrain. Anyhow, I find it quite annoying that Shim has gone on to put shift
windows on the XT group. Whats next? Shift windows on the XTR group? I can
tell you this for sure, I am really disgusted with the 94 shimano micro group
in all ways. WHY THE HELL would shimano, other than for reasons of pure greed,
change the bolt pattern on their cranks and chain rings? STUPID MOVE, now
those of us who use after market cranks for reasons of rigidity and weight must
hope that the 93 lineup of XTR and XT SGX chainrings and derailures will still
be available. I personally am stocking up on XTR and XT parts. Yes, I use the
two interchangeably. Whew, I guess I have spouted on about my hatred for
SHIMAN$. Shift windows? I don't need them, hell, I don't have time during a
ride to look at my silly cycle computer, just sits there until the end of the
day when I say, gee, how far did I go today? Did I really go that slow? ACK!
TEE HEE, SHIFT WINDOWS what a joke! Go ahead, keep shift windows on the
consumer entry level equipment, but leave it off the top end equipment. For me
the 94 XT groupo has moved down to DX or LX entry level status.
RAT
Full of hate and bile over shift windows.
Darrin Sharp
: Okay, all you gurus out there... I have grown attached to my Shamano
: Mike
Back to the original post....
When I went shopping for a new MTB last Fall, I was heavily biased towards
thumbshifters (supposedly more reliable, simpler, friction mode, appealed
to the retrogrouch in me, etc, etc). Well, after test riding many bikes
back-to-back, both with RF+ and thumbshifters, I swung around 180 degrees
and decided I much prefered RF+. When ridden back-to-back, I decided the
thumbshifters just felt "clunky", and that the RF+ gear really did work
better (better ergo position, more positive shifts). I was comparing
components in the DX/LX range, btw.
-Darrin Sharp (sh...@fc.hp.com)
Steven M. Knapp
> Full of hate and bile over shift windows.
:)
Not to add to your justified dislike of "shift windows" but Shimano
has a offical name for them...
Something like Optical Gear Indicators. Or Opti-view....
When looking at a '94 bike at a local store the salesman KEPT on
correcting me when I would call them "those gear thingies" or "those
silly gear indicators"
....as if I did not hate the store for hundreds of other reasons (such
as, would only show me one bike, insisting it was "the bike for
me")....
AT LEAST the LX/XT ones are small. STX gets huge (1/4-1/2" tall) ones.
Do these 'opti' things detract from the shifters performance? Or are
they just annoying to look at and insult me every time I ride?
________________________________________________________________________
Steven M. Knapp Computer Engineering Senior
skn...@iastate.edu Vice President Cyclone Amateur Radio Club
Iowa State University; Ames, IA; USA Durham Center Operations Staff
mikef
sh...@fc.hp.com (Darrin Sharp) writes:
I used to have rapidfire shifters, and now have thumbshifters. Besides
the usually mentioned thumbshifter advantages (reliability, independent
adjustment/replacement of shifter and brake lever) I have found
another: I don't hit my knees on them! I don't know if this happens to
other people, but on really steep climbs, when out of the saddle to get
my weight forward, I would often bang a knee on my rapidfire shifter.
Not only did this hurt, it would also sometimes cause a shift, with
disastrous consequences for completing the climb.
I love using my thumbshifters, and have no problem up- or down-shifting
in any conditions. I actually find it much easier to make big shifts
with the thumbshifters (i.e. not having to press some button six times
in a row). I have test-ridden bikes with the new rf+, and I'll admit
they have improved. Now they're *almost* as good as thumbshifters :)
Seriously, though: to the original poster: it sounds like you have two
bikes, one with rf and one with top mount. I think you should be able
to decide for yourself which one *you* like riding better. What else
matters?
As for the thread on the indicators, thumbshifters have indicators too.
I personally rarely use them, but they're there if you need 'em, and
they don't look nearly as geeky as the needle indicators on the new
rf+.
Mike
Harry Phinney
: I just don't have the time when I am
: hitting it hard to look down to see if I have an extra climbing gear, or speed
: gear.
So what do you do, try the shift and see if it works? I personally try
to avoid the most severe cross-over gears, and I must admit there are
times when I don't remember which chainring I'm on, let alone which
freewheel cog it's in.
: I figure I should know by now how it feels to be in certain gears
: in varying cadences and terain types.
This might work with extremely large jumps between gears, but I can't
claim to always know whether I'm in a 17 or a 19 when sitting on a wheel.
: I also race motocross and I have not yet seen any MX bikes, esp my
: KX250 with gear indicators. I just shift and apply different throttle
: constantly to adjust to varying terrain.
I have never seen a MX motorcycle with two shifters. All that I've seen
and ridden have had straight linear shifters - just whack it up or down.
What year is your KX that it has two shifters that need to be
coordinated?
: Full of hate and bile over shift windows.
Obviously.
Harry Phinney ha...@cv.hp.com
chr...@cc.usu.edu
> chr...@cc.usu.edu wrote:
> : I just don't have the time when I am
> : hitting it hard to look down to see if I have an extra climbing gear, or speed
> : gear.
>
> So what do you do, try the shift and see if it works? I personally try
> to avoid the most severe cross-over gears, and I must admit there are
> times when I don't remember which chainring I'm on, let alone which
> freewheel cog it's in.
>
First, if your focussing ahead on the terrain your comming to rather than right
at what your wheel is hitting, your able to anticipate obstacles better, this
translates into knowing when youve got to shift downward.
Buy a long cage XT rear derailure and you won't have to worry about the cross
over gears as much! Oh, yea, I guess shimmano got rid of that when they did
their 94 product line up. One cage size for the rear derailure. DUMB!
> : I figure I should know by now how it feels to be in certain gears
> : in varying cadences and terain types.
>
> This might work with extremely large jumps between gears, but I can't
> claim to always know whether I'm in a 17 or a 19 when sitting on a wheel.
Hmmm, I haven't had that problem, I guess I am just used to my bike and the
gearing.
>
> : I also race motocross and I have not yet seen any MX bikes, esp my
> : KX250 with gear indicators. I just shift and apply different throttle
> : constantly to adjust to varying terrain.
>
> I have never seen a MX motorcycle with two shifters. All that I've seen
> and ridden have had straight linear shifters - just whack it up or down.
> What year is your KX that it has two shifters that need to be
> coordinated?
Where did I say that I had two shifters on my KX? It's got a throttle, it's
got a clutch, you shift with your left foot and rear brake with your right.
Does that clear things up? What I tried to say is that motocross has been
around for a long time, two stroke MX bikes have at least 5 gears, some six,
and they don't have a shift window or gear indicator! True, some dual purpose
bikes have a little light indicating if your in neutral, but not on any MX bike
iv'e seen. Anyhow MX is very demanding of your knowledge of gearing, but the
industry doesn't go sticking gear indicatory on the bikes.
Just because an ATB has two shifters needing to be coordinated, doesn't make it
any more difficult in my mind to anticipate terrain and shift accordingly. For
that matter I rarely need to drop out of my middle chainring (ma) save for the
worst of climbs, or evil technical sections, or a speedy single track where I
have room to get the most out of my "pa chain ring. Now, if you don't know
what chainring your in at any particular moment, you need a lot more practice
riding IMHO.
>
> : Full of hate and bile over shift windows.
>
still waiting for someone to tell me somthing
good about shift windows.
> Obviously.
>
> Harry Phinney ha...@cv.hp.com
Mark Lu
In a previous article, chr...@cc.usu.edu () says:
>
>IMHO the shimano "shift windows" are useless to an advanced/expert rider. I
>haven't the foggiest f**** clue why shimano would stick this on their XT
>group. Why do I think they are useless? I just don't have the time when I am
>hitting it hard to look down to see if I have an extra climbing gear, or speed
>gear. I figure I should know by now how it feels to be in certain gears
>in varying cadences and terain types. It took me a while to get used to toe
>clips, then a while to get used to SPD's. Both require dexterity without the
>benefit of eye coordination. For me gear ratios on ATB's require the same type
>of feel. I also race motocross and I have not yet seen any MX bikes, esp my
>KX250 with gear indicators. I just shift and apply different throttle
>constantly to adjust to varying terrain. I feel that mountain biking requires
>the same type of gearing and cadance adjustment to fit the "feel" of the
>terrain. Anyhow, I find it quite annoying that Shim has gone on to put shift
>windows on the XT group. Whats next? Shift windows on the XTR group? I can
>tell you this for sure, I am really disgusted with the 94 shimano micro group
>in all ways. WHY THE HELL would shimano, other than for reasons of pure greed,
>change the bolt pattern on their cranks and chain rings? STUPID MOVE, now
>those of us who use after market cranks for reasons of rigidity and weight must
>hope that the 93 lineup of XTR and XT SGX chainrings and derailures will still
>be available. I personally am stocking up on XTR and XT parts. Yes, I use the
Does the '94 road group have micro-drive rings?
Does the road rings have the same features as mountain bike rings?
Are road rings and mountain rings interchangeable?
Mark Lu
In a previous article, te...@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (TODD EDWARD TREAT) says:
> I can speak from experience. I had thumbshifters. Then I had rapidfire
> plus shifters with indicators. Then I had thumbshifters once again. The
> indicators are useless. It is much quicker and easier to glance back at
> your cassette than to try to read the indicators. You might say that you
> shouldn't look back when you are in technical situations. I say if that
> is the case you won't be able to read the indicators. Also, I broke three
since offroad people said they can't read the indicators in bumpy
situations, if shimano JUST HAS to have them, if at all, they should
have foreseen this problem. Maybe go for a color coded system that
won't require reading the actual number labeled, just change the color
shown for that particular gear so it does matter if the number is not
legible in motion.
still, IMHO the displays are not worth the weight for what they do.
(and they weigh almost nothing)
Anders Jacob Truelsen
>In a previous article, chr...@cc.usu.edu () says:
>>
>>IMHO the shimano "shift windows" are useless to an advanced/expert
[snip-snip] Chris' endeavor deleted
>>be available. I personally am stocking up on XTR and XT parts. Yes, I use the
>Does the '94 road group have micro-drive rings?
Not yet, but it might very well show up...
>Does the road rings have the same features as mountain bike rings?
Not sure, but it will come...
>Are road rings and mountain rings interchangeable?
Interchangeable ? Shimano ! Never.
Seriously, road rings are somewhat larger than even std. MTB rings.
/anders
--
_0
,\ \
(*)/ ' Anders Truelsen email : leg...@daimi.aau.dk
/%%\(*) CS. Dept. PGP-key available.
/%%%#%%\ University of Aarhus phone : +45 8942 3358
/%#%%%%%%#%\ 8000 Aarhus fax : +45 8942 3255
/%###% %%##%#%%\__ DENMARK Priv. : +45 8618 8915
/%%%## %%%% %####%% (these are my opinions only...)
(design by M.Harvey <mar...@wmin.ac.uk>)
Harry Phinney
: First, if your focussing ahead on the terrain your comming to rather than right
: at what your wheel is hitting, your able to anticipate obstacles better, this
: translates into knowing when youve got to shift downward.
Knowing that I will want to shift down does not translate into knowing
which freewheel cog and/or chainring I am currently on, nor therefor
whether I wish to shift the front or rear derailleur.
: Buy a long cage XT rear derailure and you won't have to worry about the cross
: over gears as much!
No thanks, I'll stick to Ultegra for now. In any case, even accepting
the use of cross over gears, it would still be good to know how close I
am to needing to shift the front derailleur, as on my bike a front shift
is not as quick or sure as a rear shift.
: > This might work with extremely large jumps between gears, but I can't
: > claim to always know whether I'm in a 17 or a 19 when sitting on a wheel.
: Hmmm, I haven't had that problem, I guess I am just used to my bike and the
: gearing.
Maybe that's my problem - I'm not used to my bike. Damn, I hope it
doesn't take another 23 years of racing to finally get used to it.
: Where did I say that I had two shifters on my KX? It's got a throttle, it's
: got a clutch, you shift with your left foot and rear brake with your right.
: Does that clear things up?
Yes, it does clear things up. It means that you never have to worry
about exactly which gear you're in, you just shift up or down as
necessary. This would be the equivalent of having something like an
electronic shifting system on a bicycle which automatically shifted
either the front derailleur, the rear, or both to obtain the next gear
assuming that the front and rear had equivalent shifting performance
(which of course they do not).
: Anyhow MX is very demanding of your knowledge of gearing, but the
: industry doesn't go sticking gear indicatory on the bikes.
Perhaps it is very demanding to decide whether to boot it up, or boot it
down. Unless you've seriously screwed up you'll always have a small
enough gear and a large enough gear and you reach the entire range with
one consistent motion. You don't have to think "I'm going to need some
lower gears, and it feels like I'm in about a 75" gear, I wonder if I'm
in a 53x19 (i.e. I need to down-shift the front) or a 42x15 (i.e. I
need to down-shift the rear)." Instead, you simply boot it down.
: For
: that matter I rarely need to drop out of my middle chainring (ma) save for the
: worst of climbs, or evil technical sections, or a speedy single track where I
: have room to get the most out of my "pa chain ring.
I tend to change chainrings fairly frequently in rolling terrain. In
the races I rode this last weekend I spent considerable time in each of
my two chainrings, and did a fair amount of shifting between them.
Perhaps you should save some weight and simply discard the two
chainrings you so rarely use.
: Now, if you don't know
: what chainring your in at any particular moment, you need a lot more practice
: riding IMHO.
Perhaps that's it, I'm just not practiced enough to be as skillful as
you.
: still waiting for someone to tell me somthing
: good about shift windows.
So far, the rational complaints I've seen have been that the indicators
are too small to be easily read at speed on rough terrain, and that they
are (or at least appear to be) quite fragile. On the other hand, your
complaints seem to be "they're geeky" and "I don't like them."
Harry Phinney ha...@cv.hp.com
John Red-Horse
>
> I have found
>another: I don't hit my knees on them! I don't know if this happens to
>other people, but on really steep climbs, when out of the saddle to get
>my weight forward, I would often bang a knee on my rapidfire shifter.
>Not only did this hurt, it would also sometimes cause a shift, with
>disastrous consequences for completing the climb.
I was wondering when someone else was going to say this. I have gotten
deep bruises on the meaty part of my leg just above my knee from the old
rf shifters on my DB Apex. I never got them in the way that you have,
mine came exclusively from hitting them on the way over my handlebars
(I've simply got to get some technical advice on how to avoid this :-).
So, on that bike, I switched to thumbshifters and, apart from the
functionality, I liked them for a couple of reasons: I liked the clean
look they had and the fact that they were above the bar. I really never
liked the fact that the front was not indexed (and, perhaps it's just me,
but it seemed to take uncommon strength to shift up the chainwheels on the
front).
Anyway, I just got a new bike and it came with the rf+ shifters. I don't
like the fact that I have to look at my derailluers to see what gear I'm
in, but I do like the way they shift---especially the front derailluer.
And I have gone over the handlebars on it without hitting my knees.
Perhaps they are lower profile that the rf were.
>
>As for the thread on the indicators, thumbshifters have indicators too.
>I personally rarely use them, but they're there if you need 'em, and
>they don't look nearly as geeky as the needle indicators on the new
>rf+.
>
Yes, but the real indicator (relative position of the lever) was
noticable at a flickering glance. FWIW, no one has yet pointed out the
reason that I like to know the position: When going downhill over bumpy
terrain, it's nice to be on the big-big (or in close proximity) to
mitigate chain slap.
cheers,
john
Todd Kelley
>chr...@cc.usu.edu wrote:
>: First, if your focussing ahead on the terrain your comming to rather than right
>: at what your wheel is hitting, your able to anticipate obstacles better, this
>: translates into knowing when youve got to shift downward.
I think some of the reason for this disagreement is that Harry is
talking about road riding, and Chrish (? I think) is talking
about off-road riding. I don't know much about off-road riding,
but I am a road racer, and I know Harry is right about the difficulty
of knowing what gear you're in.
It's virtually impossible to know what gear you're in unless you've
memorized it from the beginning. The reason, I guess, is that
most of the work a road rider does is against the air, since we
go much faster. To "feel" what gear you're in (it's been suggested
that an experienced rider will be able to do this) means that you
know how fast your going, what the wind velocity is, and how much
drafting benefit your getting, cadence perhaps, *and* how strong
your legs are at that moment, as well as other things. Then there's
the `big vs small chainring but similar gear-inches' problem that
Harry points out.
Road riders have much more than just the terrain to think about.
An attack can happen at any instant, and you've got to be able
to adjust your gears quickly as required to go with it. Lots
of things happen in a pack that will change your required gear,
and often there is little warning, if any.
>: > This might work with extremely large jumps between gears, but I can't
>: > claim to always know whether I'm in a 17 or a 19 when sitting on a wheel.
>: Hmmm, I haven't had that problem, I guess I am just used to my bike and the
>: gearing.
>Maybe that's my problem - I'm not used to my bike. Damn, I hope it
>doesn't take another 23 years of racing to finally get used to it.
I would claim that the more riding you do, the more likely it
is that you will come across the problem. Anyone who hasn't
come across the problem simply hasn't done enough riding to come
across it.
Todd
chr...@cc.usu.edu
<SNIP SNIP>
>
> So far, the rational complaints I've seen have been that the indicators
> are too small to be easily read at speed on rough terrain, and that they
> are (or at least appear to be) quite fragile. On the other hand, your
> complaints seem to be "they're geeky" and "I don't like them."
>
> Harry Phinney ha...@cv.hp.com
They are geeky and I REALLY don't like them. =)
Nothing against you Harry, but your taking this much too personally, I'm just
trying to have a nice little discussion/flame on shift windows. I'm sorry that
you feel I have insulted your years of cycling and racing experience. But,
frankly I could care less how long you've been racing. I race occasionally and
get really bored with it, I hate having to worry about what I eat, my heart
rate, the optimum gear ratio to be in, figuring out everything in the world
there is to know about gear ratio combinations. You would probably hate the way
I ride! Oh well! Just like how many cross country riders hate the downhill
and dual slalom events because they say it doesn't require the stamina that
cross country racing does. Tee Hee. Anyhow, I still maintain that shift
windows take your eyes off the terrain, they are cheep, flimsy and not well
made, there is nothing asthetically pleasing about them, and finally ACK ACK!
Rat..
Jim Siler
it worth mentioning that that there is a readilly available alternative
that provides easilly readable gear indications without any added
mechanical complexity or trickery, Gripshift.
The indicators cannot break unless the entire mechanisim breaks (not
too likely with about 3 moving parts, all user sevicable). They
are inherently part of the mechanism. And I defy anyone to say that
reading those numbers will distract them from the terrain. They are
big, bright, and unencumbered. Hell, I can handle that and I have
the attention span of a hampster.
jim
--
Jim Siler (a.k.a. k...@panix.com a.k.a. j...@ksi.com)
Kovitz Systems, Inc. "You can believe me, because I
80 Wall Street never lie and I'm always right"
New York, NY 10005 212.425.4840 George Leroi Tirebiter
bui tho xuan
>ha...@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney) writes:
>>....
>> So far, the rational complaints I've seen have been that the indicators
>> are too small to be easily read at speed on rough terrain, and that they
>> are (or at least appear to be) quite fragile. On the other hand, your
>> complaints seem to be "they're geeky" and "I don't like them."
>
>Nothing against you Harry, but your taking this much too personally, I'm just
>trying to have a nice little discussion/flame on shift windows. I'm sorry that
>you feel I have insulted your years of cycling and racing experience. But,
I think the problem is that many of us read these rec.bike.tek posts
wanting to learn something from it--especially when it's negative, because
nobody wants to waste money buying things that don't work. That's why
I personally depend on the posts of "reliable" posters like HPhinney,
JBrandt, PBlalock, EHouse etc... for their saddle earned knowledge.
It's very hard in this medium to separate in a short time the
knowledgeable people and their useful info from those who are just
making unfounded statements for the sake of entertainment.
Perhaps a smiley or a statement saying something like "this is a biased
view that isn't really meant to be useful" at the end of your post will
help?
tho
p.s.: this is a biased view that isn't really meant to be useful :-).
Tim Barnes
was originally introduced, one (of many) of the complaints was that the
shifters gave you no idea what gear you were in. (Which was an advantage
of Suntour x-press, remember them?).
cheers, Tim.
R. M. Landis
chr...@cc.usu.edu writes:
> still waiting for someone to tell me somthing
> good about shift windows.
I personally have thumb-shifters and love them. I always know what
gear I'm in without having to look at the cluster or anything because
the position of the shifter itself tells me what gear I'm in. RF+ no
longer do this because the lever is always in the same position. So
the windows take the place of the old shifter as the gear indicator. I
guess that's why they exist, but its just one more indication that
Rapidfire+ is another example of extreme over-complexity.
Matt.
BJ
........[a lot of stuff about uselessness of the opti-view or whatever
you callit display system].........
>still, IMHO the displays are not worth the weight for what they do.
>(and they weigh almost nothing)
I am just waiting for Shimano to copycat the car manufacturers that installed
computerized voice reminders for when you "door is ajar" and such.
Can you imagine? Every time you change gears,
the thing will announce what gear you have just changed into.
Then Shimano will advertise heavily and try to convince the public that
is exactly what everyone really needs. Imagine the safety of never having
to look between your legs or even glance at the opti-view. It is a wonder
how anybody could even ride a bike without such a safety feature.
-bj
note to the humour impaired: this is sarcasm, folks.
David Mackintosh
It is quite difficult to tell what gear you're in using STI (mountain
or road) on the long bikes. For tandems I would consider new LX to
be an upgrade over XTR levers.
David Mackintosh
Peter Lancaster
I rode with thumbies for six years before I switched to RF. At first I really
liked RF but after six or seven months of use I found I longed for thumbies.
I just love being about to dump or jump gears if I need to. I also found I would
inadvertently catch a RF shifter when I was doing bunny hops and other
gyrations.
There is the also effect that the position of the thumb lever acts just
like a clock hand: at a certain position I know which gear I'm in. BTW,
I use Sun Tour X-C pro thumbies with an XT derailleur with no compatibility
problems.
peter lancaster pet...@microsoft.com