modolo brakes vs. shimano brakes
Gordon
brakes are. My friend has a pair of "Modolo/Mavic Speedy" single pivot
brakes on his Scapin road bike and he says they are way better than
Shimano dual pivot brakes because they are lighter and modulated.
Personally I can't stand them, they are really old (~20 years)and
require considerably more force from the brake levers to stop the
bike. Further, when the brake calipers brake onto the rims there is
this awful squeaking sound. My Shimano 105 dual pivot brakes never
have this problem. The best part I love about Shimano dual pivot
brakes is that they require so little braking power from the brake
lever to stop the bike.
If anyone has good Modolo brakes that deserves a good home at a
reasonable price, please put a posting because my friend really
appreciates them. He is known as the "king of buff".
Soon Chung
They're really good people ahve tons of NOS Modolo brakes at the moment.
soon chung
Singapore
Gordon <fast...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7661897d.02041...@posting.google.com...
>
Terry Rudd
considerably stronger and modulate much better than their ancestors. I
still ride a set of the Mavic Modolo brakes from the late 80's on one of
my road bikes and they are great (similar style to the Mach III/KX-90s I
believe but with a polished silver finish).
Terry
Tower of Meat
the Mavic/Modolo and thought they were dreadful, especially in the rain. I
mounted them aero through the bars (ala clas/mavic team) though, so that may
have contributed to their truely dreadful performance.
I "upgraded" to shimano 105's about 1993, and find the control and
modulation vastly superior. However, I still ride with the original
retrofriction levers and derailleur.
David R Wagner
"Terry Rudd" <TR-I...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CBBB68C...@attbi.com...
Gordon
in the rain. I think you can only use them in dry weather. On the
other hand, I find that Shimano dual pivot brakes are still quite
powerful and effective when it rains.
My friend has considered the brand new Modolo brakes from Rinaissance
Cycles already, but thinks it will simply be too expensive buying from
the Netherlands. Also, he is in Canada so he is going to get killed
from the US exchange rate, duties and shipping.
Hugh N. B. Flynn
> The next generation of Modolo brakes beyond the Speedy's are
> considerably stronger and modulate much better than their ancestors. I
> still ride a set of the Mavic Modolo brakes from the late 80's on one of
> my road bikes and they are great (similar style to the Mach III/KX-90s I
> believe but with a polished silver finish).
>
It sounds to me like you are talking about pads rather than the calipers.
What difference could rain have to a caliper? I'm sure you could have just
swapped the pads for something like a set of Matthausers and your Modolos
would have stopped on a dime.
--
Hugh N. B. Flynn
Amherst MA
hug...@student.umass.edu
Gordon
> It sounds to me like you are talking about pads rather than the calipers.
> What difference could rain have to a caliper? I'm sure you could have just
> swapped the pads for something like a set of Matthausers and your Modolos
> would have stopped on a dime.
One of the problems with Modolo calipers is that they have heavy
spring pressure which makes it harder to brake. Shimano dual pivot
brakes have small spring pressure which makes braking easy and
provides good breaking power. This probably is one of the reasons why
they stopped making single pivot brakes.
Hugh N. B. Flynn
Possibly, but that would not account for the 'my Modolos didn't work in the
rain' argument. If the springs are so strong so as to prevent one from actually
closing the calipers enough to properly stop the bike, that problem would exist
rain or shine. Poor stopping in wet conditions is a pad/rim issue, not a
caliper issue.
Additionally I am unwilling to buy the idea that operating single-pivot brakes
constitutes a hardship of any sort. They are just not that hard to operate.
True, some brakes are worse than others. I understand that less hand pressure
is required to operate dual pivots, but saying that dual pivots are much easier
to use than single pivots is sort of like saying that drinking from a straw is
MUCH easier than drinking straight from the cup. The improvement of the dual
pivot is akin to removing the cup-tipping stage from drinking.
I think fashion had more to do with the wholesale switch to dual pivot brakes
than actual function or need, but now I've drifted dangerously off-topic.
--
Hugh "Kool Stop Salmon Pads" Flynn
Amherst MA
hug...@student.umass.edu
Mike Krueger
brakes have small spring pressure which makes braking easy and
provides good breaking power. This probably is one of the reasons why
they stopped making single pivot brakes. >>
I have the last three versions of Dura Ace brake calipers on each of my three
road bikes, using the same Dura Ace aero brake levers and cables for all,
similar rims, etc. This makes for a good comparison.
Actually, I find the #7402 (7 speed) single pivot brakes to have the lightest
"feel" and the smoothest modulation; Braking power is excellent with the
original pads.
The #7403 (8 speed) dual pivot brakes use similar pads. They are the beefiest
and most powerful Shimano brakes ever, but with a slightly less responsive
"feel" in the levers vs. the single-pivots.
The new, stupid-light #7700 (9 speed) brakes are relegated to my beater bike.
The low profile design give them a stiff feel that's hard to modulate, and the
skinny, black rubber cartridge pads dissolve in the rain. For these brakes, I
would recommend an upgrade to Kool Stop salmon pads.
I would gladly trade my still-in-new-condition #7700 DA dual pivot brake
calipers for a pair of old #7402 single pivots in similar shape. Any takers?
Gordon
single-pivot brakes
> constitutes a hardship of any sort. They are just not that hard to operate.
> True, some brakes are worse than others. I understand that less hand pressure
> is required to operate dual pivots, but saying that dual pivots are much easier
> to use than single pivots is sort of like saying that drinking from a straw is
> MUCH easier than drinking straight from the cup. The improvement of the dual
> pivot is akin to removing the cup-tipping stage from drinking.
>
> I think fashion had more to do with the wholesale switch to dual pivot brakes
> than actual function or need, but now I've drifted dangerously off-topic.
In my own personal opinion, I think that fashion had very little to do
with switch to dual pivot brakes. I kinda of thought that certain
single pivot brakes looked better than dual pivot brakes (eg. Shimano
105 - BR 1050) I forgot to mention that another one of the problems my
friend has is that his Modolo single pivot brakes is that when he
releases the brake lever the brake arms fail to return to their
original position. One arm shoots back to the original position but
the other arm fails to spring back and almost rubs against the rim.
When his rim starts to get out of true, his brake pad starts rubbing
it. I am not positive about this but I think its because one side of
the spring is stronger than the other side. Dual pivot brakes solved
this problem because you could use the micro adjustment screw to
centre the two brake arms to be even. So I think that the changeover
to dual pivot brakes was for two major reasons: more braking power and
proper centering of brake arms. It was so annoying for my friend each
time he braked and had to re-centre his entire brake caliper to ensure
that the brake pads were not rubbing against the rim.
Hugh N. B. Flynn
> Hugh Flynn wrote:
> >
> > I think fashion had more to do with the wholesale switch to dual pivot brakes
> > than actual function or need, but now I've drifted dangerously off-topic.
>
> In my own personal opinion, I think that fashion had very little to do
> with switch to dual pivot brakes. I kinda of thought that certain
> single pivot brakes looked better than dual pivot brakes (eg. Shimano
> 105 - BR 1050) I forgot to mention that another one of the problems my
> friend has is that his Modolo single pivot brakes is that when he
> releases the brake lever the brake arms fail to return to their
> original position. One arm shoots back to the original position but
> the other arm fails to spring back and almost rubs against the rim.
> When his rim starts to get out of true, his brake pad starts rubbing
> it. I am not positive about this but I think its because one side of
> the spring is stronger than the other side. Dual pivot brakes solved
> this problem because you could use the micro adjustment screw to
> centre the two brake arms to be even.
I won't argue that centering a single pivot brake is easier than centering a dual
pivot, but centering single pivot brake is hardly a chore. Again, I think we're
talking about something akin to the differences between drinking from a straw and
drinking directly from a cup; one is easier than the other but not by much. It
sounds like your friend had either a broken caliper spring or some serious
maintenance issues to attend to. The situation you describe is not the standard
operating mode for single pivot brakes.
> So I think that the changeover
> to dual pivot brakes was for two major reasons: more braking power and
> proper centering of brake arms. It was so annoying for my friend each
> time he braked and had to re-centre his entire brake caliper to ensure
> that the brake pads were not rubbing against the rim.
More braking power? Dual pivots offer a higher mechanical advantage than single
pivots do, but not more power. Dual pivots require less force at the lever than a
single pivot brakes (at the expense of decreased caliper travel and an arguably
decreased sense of 'modulation'), but the force of a brake pad against the rim
required to stop the bike is the same. Let's not confuse higher mechanical advantage
with with more power. The force required to stop a bike is the same regardless, it's
just a question of how much pressure needs to be applied at the lever (and how far
the caliper arms travel per unit of cable drawn). Single and dual pivot brakes will
stop the same bike with the same rider in the same distance from the same speed. The
former simply requires a little more hand pressure than the latter. I maintain that
the switch to dual pivots had less to do with function than it did with form.
Cyclists were not careening in obstacles, flying over cliffs, or screeching through
red lights any more in the age of the single pivot than they are today.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against dual pivot brakes per se. I just don't
see them as offering the grand improvement that they have been sold as offering
that's all.
--
Hugh "any pivot will do" Flynn
Amherst MA
hug...@student.umass.edu
Tower of Meat
the same era anodized rims. I found the mathouser super pads bit too grippy
for the road.Without superior modulation control, lock-up was a problem..now
on my mountain bike, they were/are fantastic (more rotational and overall
mass to prevent lockup). Even with new pads, and extra slippy cables, the
Modolo's still were not up to the 105 set. Now I realize I'm talking
subjectives here, and it has to do with hand strength strength and size,
braking technique, and lots of other things. I'm even a certifiable Mavic
freak (I finally got the last version of the production Mavic crank for my
main bike) but would I go back to the modolo's (even though they match and
look cool and, and have MAVIC printed in cool white letters, and, and....)
no way. I like stopping.
I think the other thing my 105 levers have going for them over the Modolo
levers is a return spring in the lever that helps "pull" the cable back,
rather than relying on the brake spring to "push" the cable and lever back
to neutral.This adds considerably to the modulation and smooth operation.
As to single vs double pivot....I use them both, and yeah, re-centering is a
problem on single pivots, but as written, its nothing a proper cleaning,
adjustment and lubrication can't overcome. And if all else fails, I just
grab and twist.
"Hugh N. B. Flynn" <hug...@student.umass.edu> wrote in message
news:3CBDF17D...@student.umass.edu...
Alex Rodriguez
fast...@hotmail.com says...
>One of the problems with Modolo calipers is that they have heavy
>spring pressure which makes it harder to brake. Shimano dual pivot
>brakes have small spring pressure which makes braking easy and
>provides good breaking power. This probably is one of the reasons why
>they stopped making single pivot brakes.
The light braking action is due to the use of a light spring in the caliper
and a light spring in the lever. Early single pivot brakes only had a
stiff spring in the caliper. All shimano brakes labeled BRS have the light
braking action. These brakes have give excellent braking without the need
for some serious hand muscles. Dual pivots are easier to keep centered, that
might be one of the reasons they are so popular.
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)
Alex Rodriguez
>In my own personal opinion, I think that fashion had very little to do
>with switch to dual pivot brakes. I kinda of thought that certain
>single pivot brakes looked better than dual pivot brakes (eg. Shimano
>105 - BR 1050) I forgot to mention that another one of the problems my
>friend has is that his Modolo single pivot brakes is that when he
>releases the brake lever the brake arms fail to return to their
>original position. One arm shoots back to the original position but
>the other arm fails to spring back and almost rubs against the rim.
Tell your friend to put some lube at the spring/caliper arm contact
point. That will help.
Gordon
the production Mavic crank for my main bike) but would I go back to
the modolo's (even though they match and look cool and, and have MAVIC
printed in cool white letters, and, and....) no way. I like stopping.
You sound just like my friend. He is a big Mavic freak too and only
wants good stuff on his bike. He got rid of his Shimano wheel set and
got some old Mavic 501 wheelset instead. He simply loves the
cartridge hubset because it is so smooth and the name "Mavic" engraved
on the hub. He too loves the name "Mavic" printed in cool white
letters on the brakes. The only thing he is missing is the left crank
arm for his Mavic crank set. Someone must of pulled a fast one on him
and got stuck with a Bianchi one. Do you know where he can just by the
left crank arm?
> I think the other thing my 105 levers have going for them over the Modolo
> levers is a return spring in the lever that helps "pull" the cable back,
> rather than relying on the brake spring to "push" the cable and lever back
> to neutral.This adds considerably to the modulation and smooth operation.
Yes, I forgot about the spring on the brake levers. My older Shimano
brake levers also have these springs which really help with the
"pulling" of the cable back and adding to the smooth operation and
modulation of braking.
> As to single vs double pivot....I use them both, and yeah, re-centering is a
> problem on single pivots, but as written, its nothing a proper cleaning,
> adjustment and lubrication can't overcome. And if all else fails, I just
> grab and twist.
"Grab and twist", well he has been doing a lot of that, but it gets to
the point where when a person has to stop every few blocks for
re-centering of his brake calipers it really takes the joy from
riding. In additon, the squeaking from his braking is not music to my
ears.
Gordon
> road bikes, using the same Dura Ace aero brake levers and cables for all,
> similar rims, etc. This makes for a good comparison.
> Actually, I find the #7402 (7 speed) single pivot brakes to have the lightest
> "feel" and the smoothest modulation; Braking power is excellent with the
> original pads.
Mike, what year are your Dura Ace #7402 brakes? I used to have the
same single pivot brakes, I thought they were from late eighties and
part of 6 speed groupo bikes? I bought a pair of used Dura Ace 7402
brakes a few years back and the guy said it was from the early 90's,
but I didn't really believe him because I think Shimano already had
dual pivot brakes at that time (my friend bought a bike with RX 100
dual pivot brakes at that time). They brakes were definitely one of
the lightest and smoothest I ever had but I had to trade it back in
because I later discovered that the front brake's spring was uneven on
one side.
Mike Krueger
same single pivot brakes, I thought they were from late eighties and
part of 6 speed groupo bikes? I bought a pair of used Dura Ace 7402
brakes a few years back and the guy said it was from the early 90's,
but I didn't really believe him because I think Shimano already had
dual pivot brakes at that time >>
You are both right. I don't know what year in the '80's that these were first
introduced, but my #7402 brakes are from 1989, and were still available in
1990, the same year that Shimano began introducing dual pivots in their
lower-end groups. By 1991, all the Shimano road brake calipers, including Dura
Ace #7403, were dual pivots.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
brakes
constitutes a hardship of any sort. >>
is required to operate dual pivots, but saying that dual pivots are much easier
to use than single pivots is sort of like saying that drinking from a straw is
MUCH easier than drinking straight from the cup. >>
I agree, and much akin to index shifting, trying to get more people to
ride...shifting as considered 'hard' by a lot and brake lever forces 'too high,
hurt my hands', type responses..Actually strong springs often made the brake
more tractible and less prone to skidding tires or launching one over the
handlebars(like a great pic from the TdF, with some Motorola rider, looking
down, looks up at a pile up and then launches himself over the bars).
Samo with the 'automatic transmission' index shifting.
Did it bring more people into cycling?, Undoubtedly but not all innovations are
necessarily improvements..
<< I think fashion had more to do with the wholesale switch to dual pivot
brakes
than actual function or need, but now I've drifted dangerously off-topic. >>
I agree again and I will wander more off topic with my list of 6 things that
are fashioable but do nuthin for performance-
-compact framesets(except in regards to fit, ie, small)
-1 1/8 inch on road frames
-threadless on road framesets
-carbon butt ends
-integrated HS
-oversized bars..
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl ST.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
Jon Isaacs
>caliper issue.
It is actually both a pad/rim issue and a caliper issue. In hard rain, the rim
is never dry and even the best pads require high pressures to stop adequately.
Under these conditions the higher mechanical advantage (leverage) of dual
pivots is a definite advantage.
>I think fashion had more to do with the wholesale switch to dual pivot brakes
>than actual function or need, but now I've drifted dangerously off-topic.
I think the fact that DP's require less hand pressure is an advantage, they are
easier to center and they stay aligned better, these are some of the reasons.
But on a steep downhill in heavy rain, they are most certainly a great help.
jon isaacs
A Muzi
Uh, that design uses a single spring to operate both arms.
Lubricate the centerbolt, secure it and use a cone wrench to center the
brake. If one arm drags, check the adjustment of the centerbolt's front
adjuster and locknut and lubricate the ends of the spring where it slides
along the stops on the backs of the arms. Once set up properly it will be
fine for the life of the bike.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> That design uses a single spring to operate both arms. Lubricate
> the centerbolt, secure it and use a cone wrench to center the brake.
> If one arm drags, check the adjustment of the centerbolt's front
> adjuster and locknut and lubricate the ends of the spring where it
> slides along the stops on the backs of the arms. Once set up
> properly it will be fine for the life of the bike.
This recurring problem with single pivot brakes is not easily solved.
The retraction spring slides on the contact point with the brake arms
by a small amount, technically known as cosine error, cause by the
different point of rotation of two nearly parallel parts. With time,
in this dirt exposed area, lubrication fails and subsequent wear
causes one end of the return spring to slide more easily than the
other. It is friction that causes brakes to go off center, not a
change adjustment of the spring or its anchor bolt.
The reason for the dual pivot brakes is to forcefully overrule any
such disparities. The two arms of these calipers MUST work
symmetrically, regardless of asymmetric spring force. The best way to
re-center single pivot brakes is to clean and oil the spring contacts.
Adjusting the centerbolt only defers the moment when there is again an
imbalance. This is a lubrication rather than adjustment problem.
This presents a kinematic challenge for an inventor to convolute the
spring in such a way that it has no cosine error. I'm not sure there
is a practical solution, but there may be considering many things in
bicycle engineering that have remained as a challenge, until someone
came up with a solution, such as the threadless steer tube, indexed
shifting and others.
Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
Qui si parla Campagnolo
The retraction spring slides on the contact point with the brake arms
by a small amount, technically known as cosine error, cause by the
different point of rotation of two nearly parallel parts. >>
<< With time,
in this dirt exposed area, lubrication fails and subsequent wear
causes one end of the return spring to slide more easily than the
other >>
Sounds like a job for DELTAS...with enclosed and protected brake linkage!!!
A Muzi
imbalanced":
>
> > That design uses a single spring to operate both arms. Lubricate
> > the centerbolt, secure it and use a cone wrench to center the brake.
> > If one arm drags, check the adjustment of the centerbolt's front
> > adjuster and locknut and lubricate the ends of the spring where it
> > slides along the stops on the backs of the arms. Once set up
> > properly it will be fine for the life of the bike.
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:CLjw8.18731$44.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> This recurring problem with single pivot brakes is not easily solved.
> The retraction spring slides on the contact point with the brake arms
> by a small amount, technically known as cosine error, cause by the
> different point of rotation of two nearly parallel parts. With time,
> in this dirt exposed area, lubrication fails and subsequent wear
> causes one end of the return spring to slide more easily than the
> other. It is friction that causes brakes to go off center, not a
> change adjustment of the spring or its anchor bolt.
>
> The reason for the dual pivot brakes is to forcefully overrule any
> such disparities. The two arms of these calipers MUST work
> symmetrically, regardless of asymmetric spring force. The best way to
> re-center single pivot brakes is to clean and oil the spring contacts.
> Adjusting the centerbolt only defers the moment when there is again an
> imbalance. This is a lubrication rather than adjustment problem.
>
> This presents a kinematic challenge for an inventor to convolute the
> spring in such a way that it has no cosine error. I'm not sure there
> is a practical solution, but there may be considering many things in
> bicycle engineering that have remained as a challenge, until someone
> came up with a solution, such as the threadless steer tube, indexed
> shifting and others.
>
> Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
I gave practical advice including lubrication.
Jobst gave a theoretical overview and recommended lubrication.
Seems as if we once again agree.
Gordon
>
> > That design uses a single spring to operate both arms. Lubricate
> > the centerbolt, secure it and use a cone wrench to center the brake.
> > If one arm drags, check the adjustment of the centerbolt's front
> > adjuster and locknut and lubricate the ends of the spring where it
> > slides along the stops on the backs of the arms. Once set up
> > properly it will be fine for the life of the bike.
>
> This recurring problem with single pivot brakes is not easily solved.
> The retraction spring slides on the contact point with the brake arms
> by a small amount, technically known as cosine error, cause by the
> different point of rotation of two nearly parallel parts. With time,
> in this dirt exposed area, lubrication fails and subsequent wear
> causes one end of the return spring to slide more easily than the
> other. It is friction that causes brakes to go off center, not a
> change adjustment of the spring or its anchor bolt.
Hmmm. I am no rocketship scientist, but I really wonder how much
lubrication plays a part in the proper working of single pivot brakes?
My friend's old Modolo single pivot brakes are still squeaking and
require considerably more force for braking so after reading postings
here by some of the more experienced and knowledgeable contributors I
sat down and really looked at my friend's brake and analyzed what
exactly is the problem. One of the problems is the design of single
pivot side pull brakes. The length and angle of each brake arm is
different so it is really hard to pull the same distance and return to
the same original position. It seems easier for the longer brake arm
to clamp down then the shorter arm. I have seen brand new high end
bikes with single pivot brakes (Shimano 105) that brake and cannot
re-center themselves equally so I don't know if subsequent wear and
lubrication can be always factors in the performance of braking.
Ideally I guess if you want even brake pull, we could go back to
center pull brakes. My old Peugot bike has old Mafac center pull
brakes and always brakes and returns to its original position. Well,
these are my observations and cannot mathematically prove anything.