What's the oldest stuff you use?

[NFN Smith]

After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent mileage.

Something that I thought of was the age of some of my stuff. I realized
that the oldest stuff that I use:

- Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that still serve
me nicely.

- Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use regularly
when it's cold.

I got the pedals used in 1990, and I think I got the arm warmers about a
year or two before that.

What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?

Smith

[Roger Meriman]

Nothing that old, oldest would be the commute bike which was a hardtail MTB
which I bought new in 2006.

Clothes etc don’t last that long, nor stuff like pedals which get impacts
and used in mucky conditions.

Roger Merriman

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 26.04.2023 um 11:26 schrieb Roger Meriman:
> NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent mileage.
>>
>> Something that I thought of was the age of some of my stuff. I realized
>> that the oldest stuff that I use:
>>
>> - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that still serve
>> me nicely.
>>
>> - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use regularly
>> when it's cold.
>>
>> I got the pedals used in 1990, and I think I got the arm warmers about a
>> year or two before that.
>>
>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?

> Clothes etc don’t last that long, nor stuff like pedals which get impacts
> and used in mucky conditions.

In 1990, I was still a school kid living with my parents. Nothing I had
then was worth keeping, except the socks hand-knitted by my mum.

I bought a Gore Wind Breaker as a student around 1995, it's still almost
like new. All the bicycling hardware from my student times (e.g. a
Claud Butler USWB tandem from the 1950's) stayed in UK when I left or
was stolen during my year in the US (Kingcycle recumbent).

Rolf

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I have several Lands End bags, briefcases, and luggage items that I
bought or was gifted back in the early eighties when I knew several
people who worked at their headquarters and got a substantial
discount. My winter coat and several shirts are also from that source
and time frame.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I have a lot of clothing from the early 90's that I still wear, mostly old kits from the first team I rode for, but the oldest clothing I still wear is a pair of Bellweather shorts with a synthetic chamois I bought in ~ 1987. I still use a pair of Time shoes I bought in ~ 1989, but only on the trainer indoors.

For hardware The oldest bike I still regularly ride is a 1985 Ross Signature (Tom Kellogg design, Ishiwata tubing) set up as a fixed gear. To be honest though I bought the bike ~ 2002.

The crankset on Ross is the original Campy NR that came on my first real racing bike - a 1984 Basso Gap I bought new (now fully restored with vintage Campy SR and hanging on my foyer wall).

My oldest MTB is a 1998 Proflex K2/3000, still set up pretty much the way I got it back then with a Girven Elite fork and Deore XT 8 speed. I run some home made ice tires and only use it in the winter.

[AMuzi]

My beloved 1953 Raleigh Sports.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Ted Heise]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 08:12:16 -0500,
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/25/2023 10:40 PM, NFN Smith wrote:
> > After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent
> > mileage.
> >
> > Something that I thought of was the age of some of my
> > stuff. I realized that the oldest stuff that I use:
> >
> > - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that
> > still serve me nicely.
> >
> > - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use
> > regularly when it's cold.
> >
> > I got the pedals used in 1990, and I think I got the arm
> > warmers about a year or two before that.
> >
> > What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
> >
> > Smith
>
> My beloved 1953 Raleigh Sports.

I have a set of Campagnolo Super Leggeri Pedals gifted from a
friend who had them on an old Schwinn Paramount. Think these
would have been from the 70s--so not as old as Andrew's bike.

I think these pedals are currently on my (*much* newer) fixed gear
bike. I like the setup with toe clips and straps because it lets
me ride in loafers (and casual clothes) for commuting to work.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[William Crowell]

My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.

[AMuzi]

+1

Flat pedals, toeclip pedals, clipless or MTB clipless all
have a place. Just not the same place.

[Frank Krygowski]

Almost everything on my utility bike is at least 30 years old. It just
keeps working. The frame is 51 years old.

Our tandem was made in 1979. Hubs and cranks, bottom brackets and some
chainrings are original. I think the front stem may be original too.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Radey Shouman]

1978 Puch Marco Polo. Rode it to work this morning.

[Joerg]

My road bike which was custom-assembled in 1982. It is the only road
bike I have and it sees 3000-4000 miles per year. Good old non-indexed
down-tube shifters and all. I've had riders ask me "Why are you reaching
down but don't grab the bottle?"

Some of the stuff I added onto it is older, like a large reflector from
the late 70's and a transistor to regulate a lighting voltage which is
early 70's. Then some cloth-insulated (!) wire from my grandpa that is
about 100 years old. Not sure if such small items count.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Mark Cleary]

My Shimano 105 road pedals I would say are 9.5 years old.
Deacon Mark

[Joerg]

That's brand new in my book :-)

Much of the stuff in my use is older than I am, and I am now well into
my 60's:

https://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/sed/olddrill.JPG

[Tom Kunich]

I have a toolbox containing some tools that stretch back to the 1970's if not older.

[Ted Heise]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 10:55:42 -0700 (PDT),
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a toolbox containing some tools that stretch back to
> the 1970's if not older.

If we're going to talk tools, I can claim some that are nearing
the century mark, having previously belonged to my paternal
grandfather. The claw hammer has his (and my :) initials carved
in the (wooden) handle.

[Ted Heise]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 10:27:41 -0700,
Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/23 8:40 PM, NFN Smith wrote:

> > What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>
> My road bike which was custom-assembled in 1982. It is the only
> road bike I have and it sees 3000-4000 miles per year. Good old
> non-indexed down-tube shifters and all. I've had riders ask me
> "Why are you reaching down but don't grab the bottle?"

Okay, that made me laugh.

[Tom Kunich]

I have my father's toolbox but I was talking about my bicycle tools, like that Freewheel removal tool for 5 speed freewheels that I used back in the 70's on my Peugeot PX10's.

[Radey Shouman]

I have some user tools (molding planes) that might well have been made
in the 1870s. Maybe earlier, I don't know. I'm certainly using tools
that I bought new in the 1970s.

[Joerg]

In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
why there are several irons.

[Roger Meriman]

Probably the oldest item I have that I use occasionally is a large old
screwdriver wooden handle, looks 1930’s ish in style.

Sadly my dad had his tool box stolen few decades back so anything very old
that was useable would of gone.

Got to admit have bought one of the old style tool boxes metal for bike
stuff and it’s some much nicer than various plastic ones.

But since I was adult in the 90’s tools I’ve bought are that sort of age,
oldest being a socket set which was bought for car usage, and now
occasionally DIY most bike stuff decent Allen keys will do just fine.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 4/26/2023 4:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 4/26/23 1:30 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
>>

>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:42:54 AM UTC-7,

>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/23 10:33 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:

>>>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 12:27:46 PM UTC-5,

I was told to do that around anything electronic by an EE
customer and to not use an electric-heat solder unit.

[John B.]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:54:39 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/26/2023 4:46 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 4/26/23 1:30 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>

>>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:42:54 AM UTC-7,

>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>> On 4/26/23 10:33 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:

>>>>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 12:27:46 PM UTC-5,

I remember being cautioned about using an electric soldering iron
around some electronic parts and even bought a rather large electric
iron for that purpose. Plug it in until it gets hot and then unplug
and solder quickly. Awkward but usable (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Whoever told you that must have been a Liebermann type of engineer. The electric heating element in a soldering iron is almost entirely shielded by the metal case. And I don't know what sort of electronic equipment would be harmed by 60 hz radiation anyway.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:54:39 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

For modern soldering irons, MIL-STD-2000 specifies that the soldering
iron tip to ground leakage voltage shall be less than 2 millivolts.
It's quite safe. However, that assumes that the soldering iron is
properly grounded through the ground (green) wire of the electrical
outlet. If whatever you're working on is grounded to something else,
and there's an electrical potential between the two grounds, it will
appear on the soldering iron tip. I had this problem with a perfectly
good soldering iron, where the power strip on my workbench had become
ungrounded and leakage through defective filter capacitors on some of
my vintage HP test equipment produced a 20VAC differential between the
two grounds. I found the problem before I blew up anything. Just
measure the voltage between AC ground and the soldering iron tip with
a DVM (digital volt meter). If you see *ANY* voltage, AC or DC,
something is wrong. Note that measuring 1mv is difficult and usually
requires a Kelvin bridge.

Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.

"Can a soldering station guarantee tip grounding?"
<http://kb.hakkousa.com/Knowledgebase/10621/Can-a-soldering-station-guarantee-tip-grounding>

You don't need one of these, but you might find it interesting.
"Soldering Tip Voltage Tester"
<https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/86958.pdf>

More than you probably wanted to know:
"EOS analysis of soldering iron tip voltage"
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304388699000431>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Luns Tee]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:46:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
> why there are several irons.

By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.

Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.

-Luns

[Tom Kunich]

Roofers want to be self contained - most contractors are that way. They use those massive soldering irons that can solder a whole lot of flashing before they need to be reheated. they also carry their own gas powered compressor for their staple guns carpenters for their nail guns.

[John B.]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
electrical system (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:16:01 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
>wrote:

I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
is a very serious matter that can lead to death.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:49:52 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
>>power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
>>better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
>>Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
>>electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
>>the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
>>solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.

>Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
>in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
>electrical system (:-)

I still see the old 2 wire electrical wiring in my area. I received a
call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
I found three of the 3 wire to 2 wire adapters you mentioned in use:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=polarized+grounding+adapter&tbm=isch>
There are probably more but I couldn't get to all the wall outlets in
the house. Half the house was old and had no protective ground
(green) wire. The other half was more modern and used 3 wire grounded
wiring. However, the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
the mess for his son to fix this weekend.

This is NOT an isolated case. Whenever I setup computers, printers,
wireless, etc, I always check the outlets and power strips. (I've
found power strips wired backwards). When I bought my house in about
1973, I had to deal with a few ungrounded receptacles. Same with two
rentals I later purchased. I've found missing grounds and reversed
wires at a few customers houses over the years. Fortunately, nobody
has been electrocuted or equipment destroyed (mostly thanks to double
insulated tools and devices).

Electrical wiring standards are a good thing. Every country should
have one:
<https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2020/07/electrical-wiring-color-codes-nec-iec.html>
<https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Electrical-Wiring-Color-Codes-NEC-IEC-Single-Phase-Three-Phase-AC.png>

[John B.]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 23:43:25 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

I'm not sure abut brand new housing but certainly the houses I've
lived in were all 2 wire circuits... except for the hot water heaters
in the bathrooms which are wired 3 wire, actually 2 wire and a
ground..

I remember when I worked, as a civilian, on an airbase here and
inspected a brand new two story barracks building that was wired two
wire with the neutral grounded at the entrance :-) The specs stated "2
wire with ground" and the contractor argued that is what he had
installed. There were two wires and one of them was a ground.

After some argument, and the contractor threatening to sue, the A.F.
gave in and hired our company to completely rewire the building.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

That must have been a very long time ago. My first job in electronics was an assembler in 1980, and magnetically coupled soldering tips were standard fare back then. I've heard tales that older style inductive irons used back in the tube days weren't temperature controlled very well, and in some cases put out inductive fields that could damage early solid state electronics. Early transistors were so sensitive that, even using well-controlled soldering irons, they sold little heat sink clips to place on the transistor leads between the soldering point and the body of the part.

These days the thermal controls and any electrical fields that may possibly cause damage are more than well enough controlled such that even the most sensitive devices are safe (unless you're a tommy and you're doing it wrong)

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 2:43:39 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:49:52 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:51:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> >wrote:
> >>Soldering irons and soldering stations with only 2 wires on the AC
> >>power cord are legal, but not good enough. 3 wire power cords are
> >>better. The problem is not leakage but rather static electricity.
> >>Without a path to ground for the tip to discharge any static
> >>electricity from your cloths or shoes, the soldering iron tip will do
> >>the discharging for you through whatever electronics you're trying to
> >>solder. Make sure your soldering iron tip is grounded.
> >Added to the problem of the "3 wire" soldering irons is the difficulty
> >in locating the adapter so you can plug it into the two wire
> >electrical system (:-)
> I still see the old 2 wire electrical wiring in my area.

My house still has old knob-n-tube remnants - not active but left in place when rewiring was done.

> I received a
> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>
> I found three of the 3 wire to 2 wire adapters you mentioned in use:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=polarized+grounding+adapter&tbm=isch>
> There are probably more but I couldn't get to all the wall outlets in
> the house. Half the house was old and had no protective ground
> (green) wire. The other half was more modern and used 3 wire grounded
> wiring. However, the tester showed that some of the receptacles had
> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.

Half of my house is the older two-wire inside "armor cable" housings. some of it's so old that I can't replace the outlet without the insulation on the wires disintegrating - and it's stranded wire to boot. When we first moved into the house, my wife went to vacuum the living room a promptly tripped a breaker, but it would only do that when she used the living room outlets. I replaced the breaker - same result. During the subsequent troubleshooting I found that the living room had had been wired with neutral and hot reversed (Just the living room!). I have more electrical tales of woe - like putting new light fixtures in the basement and hearing arcing when I opened a junction box. Turns out a few feet away someone had cut a branch of the circuit - in armor cable - with what looked like a hatchet given the notch in the beam at the cut, and they didn't bother disconnecting the line at the junction box so there was a hot wire inside a crushed metal housing stabled to a wooden floor joist. Good times.....

[William Crowell]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?

[AMuzi]

On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford, WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash, so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down tube.
> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>

Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
suffered mechanical erosion.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG

https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg

[William Crowell]

Yes, the races became pitted.

[Tom Kunich]

After I got back from my ride yesterday I went on a tour of the high end bike shops in the area - four of them. Almost all of the bikes in these shops were steel though they did have some top end carbon fiber. I ask all of them the expected life span of the CF bikes and got almost exactly the same answer - for their high end CF bikes FIVE years and beyond that the chance for catastrophic failure multiplied and then on Quora this morning a man who has been in the bike industry for 45 years said that 3 years was probably the limit for very high end carbon fiber bikes. Trek overbuilds their CF bikes so that they have a lifespan longer than people who ride CF bikes will keep such bikes so Trek can offer the stupid lifetime warranty because they never have to pay off on them.

But wait - Flunkyliar and Liebermann know far better than someone with 45 years of experience in the industry. I have a doctor's appointment with a geriatric specialist this morning to try and discover why the hell I'm so slow now. If this is normal than I can be satisfied simply to ride slowly. But although early in the ride I felt pretty good I got really slow late in the ride and my overall average was only 9 mph

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 6:02:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

Sealed bearings greatly reduce this problem.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/28/2023 2:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> I received a
> call from a friend to see what I could determine what was causing him
> to feel minor electric shocks when touching the metal case of various
> appliances and devices. I usually carry several of these testers:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=3+wire+electrical+tester&tbm=isch>

> ... the tester showed that some of the receptacles had

> the line and neutral wires reversed. I fixed what I could, but left
> the mess for his son to fix this weekend.
>
> This is NOT an isolated case.

On one bike tour, my wife, a cycling friend and I stayed overnight at a
different friend's house. After a rainy riding day, we were relaxing on
their screened-in porch when my wife touched a metal outlet cover and
got a slight shock. I felt nothing, then realized I was wearing shoes
while she had her bare feet on the concrete floor. Somehow that metal
cover was electrically hot.

In a much later visit, I worked on the problem. It was a real puzzle, as
in "why would the breaker not trip?" Eventually I found where a hot wire
touching the metal outlet box, PLUS a disconnected ground wire in a
basement ceiling fixture between that circuit and the breaker box.

I later returned with a tester similar to yours and found some outlets
with wires reversed, plus other anomalies beyond my understanding. I
recommended they hire an electrician to sort it out, but I don't know if
they ever did.

I was surprised by this because the owners bought the house only a few
years prior from the original owner, whose business was home
construction. I'd have thought everything in his own home would have
been done perfectly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

As always, Krygowski can make up a personal experience antedote for
every occasion.

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you suppose no one else has experiences like Krygowski? Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets., There was no way that the older houses could run the separate ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small connectors. AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground. You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE diploma and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.

[Frank Krygowski]

:-) The guy who doesn't care what I say took a full eight minutes to
respond! His weird compulsion remains.

It makes sense that pathological introverts who ride only back and forth
on bike trails have few experiences to relate. Others have more
interesting lives.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:32:22 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Who says I don't care what you say? Actually, I find many of your
posts very entertaining.

>His weird compulsion remains.

Is it also a weird compulsion that you respond to many of Tom Kunich's
posts? You probably do that more than I respond to yours.

But, whatever, I understand that, being a narcissistic, you don't like
having your stories questioned.

[Catrike Rider]

Says the guy whose major expreriences are riding bicycle and
jibber-jabbing with other people who ride bicycles.

[Tom Kunich]

I have in 1200 miles this year so far. How many do you suppose Frank has? Or do you suppose he has a friend that actually rides bikes and doesn't just talk about it?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 07:30:01 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I ask all of them the expected life span of the CF bikes and got almost exactly the same answer - for their high end CF bikes FIVE years and beyond that the chance for catastrophic failure multiplied and then on Quora this morning a man who has been in the bike industry for 45 years said that 3 years was probably the limit for very high end carbon fiber bikes.

I don't believe you. I just checked Quora for your postings and found
nothing relating to carbon fiber or bicycles from you:
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=carbon%20fiber&author=379224917>
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=CF&author=379224917>
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=bicycle&author=379224917>
<https://www.quora.com/search?q=cycling&author=379224917>

[John B.]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.

As for California? Who knows what they will do. I read in the news the
other day that they are talking about giving millions to the black
people because they used to be slaves, a hundred years ago....
although slavery was never legal in California.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:57:10 -0400, Catrike Rider

Birds of a feather flock together ?

A known fact since, at least, the 2nd Century BC
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

What gets me is that black people in Africa, and Amerindians in North America, were enslaving others long before the coming of Europeans to those areas.

Cheers

[Joy Beeson]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700, NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[snip}

> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?

My Fuji Grand Tourer was pretty old when I had the components on my
Raleigh Carleton moved onto it. The Carleton had a stripped brake
bridge, and Spouse had recently bought a Raleigh Pro. Seventies,
eighties?

I think his grand nephew has the Pro now. The Carleton might be up
in the barn attic, or we may have given it to the same nephew.

The weather and my schedule allowed a short ride this morning. (27
April 2023) I've worn out two sets of wire panniers, but it may
still have the pedals that were on it when clipless pedals came in.
There was a presentation on clipless at a bike-club meeting, and I
thought "That's what I'll buy when my pedals wear out!" But I'd just
bought a pair of pedals with replaceable bearings. *Standard*
bearings, to reference another thread. I recall a mechanic sending me
to a hardware store so that I wouldn't have to wait for him to order .
. . I *think* it was bearings.

Eventually, I realized that pedals that can't be used when one isn't
wearing cleats don't suit the way I ride.

One of my sewing machines is probably over a century old, and I've had
it since the sixties, but I can't say I use it because it needs repair
and I can't lift it into the car to take it to the repair shop. There
are things that it does better than newer machines -- it cost a year's
salary when it was new -- but the Nechhi Lycia I bought in 1965 does
them adequately.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

[John B.]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 17:28:15 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

True, or at least from what I read, "slaving ships" from the Americas
actually purchased slaves from local African (read Black) Rulers.

And, again from what I read, local rulers, like Shaka Zulu, or the
Metabele Kings, were far more savage then the American slave owners.
Until, that is, until they ran afoul of an even more savage group.....
the White Man (:-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Uh, I'll wait until somebody pays me, descendant of the
Adriatic coast Italians who suffered a few hundred years of
Turk raids and slavery.

[John B.]

Don't, for God's Sake, hold your breath.

I think that, probably every race and color can point to some period
in history when they didn't have it so well. The native people in the
U.S. were overcome by the (mostly) White people, the Anglo-Saxons,
i,e, White people, were overcome by the French, whom later overcame
the N. Africans. The Italian (citify states) were overcome by about
everyone, including each other. The Roman Church dominated the
politics of most of Europe at one time and they had two Pope for a
while.

But, I read that the U.S. is running out of money and has to borrow
some more, so the Irish and the Italians will have to wait their turn.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 09:02:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Years ago California made it law that all houses have three prong outlets.,

Wrong. Code requirements are set by cities and counties and follow
NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) guidelines. Cities and
counties in California adopt such codes that typically included a
requirement that all *NEW* construction use 3 wire grounded outlets.
There is no requirement to upgrade older ungrounded 2 wire outlets.
However, if one applies for a remodeling or construction permit from
the county, new outlets are just one of a long list of required
upgrades. Read all about it online at:

"Free online access to the NEC® and other electrical standards"
<https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/About-the-NEC/Free-online-access-to-the-NEC-and-other-electrical-standards>

>There was no way that the older houses could run the separate
>ground cable but these outlets also had the large and small
>connectors.

There are several NEC approved ways to convert from 2 wire ungrounded
to 3 wire grounded:

<https://www.google.com/search?q=Replace+2+wire+ungrounded+outlet+with+3+wire>
<https://duckduckgo.com/?va=e&t=he&q=Replace+2+wire+ungrounded+outlet+with+3+wire>

None of the methods listed require removing the existing 2 wires.
Simply adding a green protective ground wire is sufficient.

>AC lines have a an active and a neutral line so when you plug
>them in you can only go in one way and you don't need a ground
>because the neutral line effectively acts as a ground.

Sigh. Under normal circumstances, the protective ground wire does
nothing. It is connected to the white neutral wire at only one place,
usually at the neutral bus bar in the circuit break panel. Where the
protective ground wire is important is to provide a path to ground in
the event of a wiring fault.

"System and Equipment Grounding Safety"
<https://eepower.com/technical-articles/system-and-equipment-grounding-safety/#>
"Grounding is used to provide a safe path for a fault current to
flow."

Without a protective ground, a break in a neutral wire will put the
metal case of whatever equipment you're using at line potential. If
you touch the case and ground simultaneously, you will receive a well
deserved electrocution. If there is a wire between the equipment case
and the ground wire system of the house, the current that would have
electrocuted you goes through the wire instead of you, usually
tripping the circuit breaker. The life a protective ground wire might
save could easily be yours.

>You could ask Liebermann since he was so eager to show us his EE
>diploma

Nice of you to mention that:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/diploma-jeffl.jpg>
Of course, that diploma does little to demonstrate expertise in all
things electrical. I had a few classes in safety, motors, industrial
electrical systems, transmission lines and speed control.

>and he did work in analog electronics so he should have known
>everything about this but he is probably unaware that devices that
>have the old fashion two small prong plugs have their cases insulated
>from the power. Layer after layer of stupidity about absolutely everything.

With a polarized 2 wire receptacle that works assuming everything else
is wired correctly and nothing has failed. For example, one of the
power line filter bypass capacitors between both wires to case ground
failed in an old HP signal generator (HP606A) that I was trying to
fix. The power cable was 3 wire but some fool had broken off the
ground pin so that they could insert the plug into a 2 wire ungrounded
receptacle. When I grounded my oscilloscope probe to the case, the
power cord started to smoke and eventually tripped the circuit breaker
on my workbench. If I had placed myself between the signal generator
case and the oscilloscope case, I would have been fried instead of the
scope probe.

As usual, everything you wrote was either half wrong or totally wrong.
According to Zillow, your house was built in 1955, when 2 wire
ungrounded outlets were still used. Is your house full of 2 wire
ungrounded outlets? If so, why are you still alive?

[Tom Kunich]

Every race has practiced slavery. That is historical fact.

[Ted Heise]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:

> > On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:21???AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:

> >> My main road bike, which is a ~1986 Schwinn Paramount made
> >> from Columbus SLX tubing. I believe it was made in Waterford,
> >> WI. It still has its original Campy low-flange, loose-bearing
> >> hubs, but now with Mavic Open Sport rims and the original
> >> Campy sidepull caliper brakes. The original Campy crankset
> >> broke during a sprint and gave me some bruises and roadrash,
> >> so I'm now using a "no-name brand" compact crankset, a
> >> 9-speed cassette and the Campy friction shifters on the down
> >> tube.

> > Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
> > forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy low-flange
> > hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the bearing races
> > on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
>
> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the lubricant
> became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added suffered
> mechanical erosion.
>
> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aE5Dci8M8a8/SJYuTuE7ooI/AAAAAAAAANs/_9y-M492gYY/s400/IMG_2277.JPG
>
> https://www.restoration.bike/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/damaged-hub-cone-1.jpg

Yes, my understanding is that brinelling is something that could
occur in old headset races because the bearings were often in
about the same location and over time created individual indents.
Not directly wear, at least not friction wear-more of an impact
thing.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Frank Krygowski]

See https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/indexed-steering.html

(And I think Jobst's explanation is more often correct despite John
Allen's objections. IMO, John's examples are not impossible, but are not
typical.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Right. There is much misunderstanding. A brinell disruption
displaces material by impact:

https://www.manufacturingguide.com/sites/default/files/styles/illustration/public/illustrations/brinell_testing_1437.png?itok=7dezTfKA

And I also believed that was the process which degraded
headsets. Mr Brandt, however,made a better analysis and
concluded that the failure mode was momentary welding, not
impact disruption.

In our FAQ , Section 8f.13 (June 2004) Mr Brandt responds to
an RBT contributor who lamented a 'brinelled headset' and
warned that it could be dangerous or deadly:

He wrote:

I disagree on two points. First, because you use the term
"Brinell" that conveys a notion as incorrect as the phrase
"my chain stretched from climbing steep hills" and second,
because there is no possibility of injury or damage from
"indexed" steering head bearings. The effect is mostly
perception of failure from the rattling noise and clunky
feel while braking lightly. It has such a small effect that
it is imperceptible when riding no-hands unless the bearing
clearance has been adjusted in the straight ahead position.
Then the bearing will bind off center."

Damage to head bearings seems to be twofold in this case
because properly adjusted steering can only become looser
from dimples, dimples that cannot immobilize steering.
Therefore, the head adjustment was too tight. However,
dimpling is not caused by impact, but rather by lubrication
failure that occurs while riding straight ahead, giving the
steering a preferred home position. This occurs more easily
with a correctly adjusted bearing than with a loose one that
rattles and clunks. Rattling replenishes lubricant between
balls and races, something that would otherwise not not
occur. Off road bicycles suffer less from this malady than
road bicycles because it occurs primarily during long
straight descents that on which no
steering motions, that might replenish lubricant, are made.

If you believe it comes from hammering the balls into the
races, you might try to cause some dimples by hammering on
the underside of the fork crown of a clunker bike of your
choice. Those who hammered cotters on steel cranks will
recall no dimples on the spindle, even though it has a far
smaller diameter than the head bearing and the blows were
more severe and direct, supported by no more than one or
two balls.

Bearing balls make metal-to-metal contact only under
fretting loads (microscopic oscillations) while the races
are is not rotating. Any perceptible steering motion will
replenish lubricant from the oily meniscus surrounding each
ball contact patch. Peering over the bars at the front hub
while coasting down a road at 20+ mph you will notice the
fork ends vibrating fore and aft. This motion does not
arise at the fork end, but at the fork crown, where it bends
the steer tube. Both head bearings rotate in fretting motion
crosswise to the normal plane of rotation as the steer tube
bends. Dimples form in the forward and rearward quadrant of
both upper and lower bearings from
this fretting. That they also form in the upper bearing
shows they are not directly load related.

Lubrication failure from fretting causes metal to metal
contact that forms microscopic welds between balls and
races. These welds repeatedly tear material from the softer
of the two causing elliptical milky dimples in both races.
Were these Brinelling marks (embossed through force), they
would be shiny and smooth and primarily on the
inner race of the bearing. Various testimonials for the
durability of one bearing over another are more likely an
indication of lubrication than the design of the bearing.
Ball bearings with separate cups and cones have been used as
head bearings longer than they should considering their poor
performance.

[Ted Heise]

On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 10:41:09 -0500,

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/29/2023 10:14 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
> > On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:02:18 -0500,
> > AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> On 4/28/2023 7:19 AM, William Crowell wrote:

> >>> Please pardon my brain flatulence, but how could I have
> >>> forgotten that I had to replace the original Campy
> >>> low-flange hubs with Shimano Ultegra years ago because the
> >>> bearing races on the old Campy hubs became brinelled?
> >>
> >> Unlikely to have been 'brinelled'. More probably the
> >> lubricant became dessicated and with water/dirt/crud added
> >> suffered mechanical erosion.
> >>
> >> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CiTzl.jpg

Fascinating. THanks also to Frank for pointing this out.

So if it is fretting, it really is more of friction type wear
after all, but I'm not sure how the purported welding mechanism
would be classified.

[AMuzi]

I'm not a metallurgist but out here in the macro world of
riding bicycles the failure is from _loss_ of material, not
from _displacement_ of material.

[pH]

Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!

Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is
from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's
Centurion Super LeMans which was replaced by the Cannondale when I broke the
rear dropout.

I have at least one Bike Nashbar pannier from the 80's and my Carradice are
from around 2000, I think.

pH in Aptos

[Tom Kunich]

The thermal tights I have I bought from Nashbar in the early 2000's. Biden made absolutely certain to destroy private business in the USA so that the government could take over. The death rates from Covid-19 in all of the lock down states was pretty much identical to Florida. There was absolutely NO reason for the lockdowns. The vaccines killed one out of every 10 people that took it and it was blames on Covid-19 despite there being no SARS-Cov-2 markers in their blood stream. This economy was purposely destroyed so that the Chinese economy could replace it. Everything is lies from the Democrats - for every Russian soldier killed 6 Ukrainians are. That SOB Biden had American troops in the Ukraine operating the high tech weapons that they are not helping. So why is the Slime Stream Media reporting the opposite? The Ukrainian "leader" is threatening to use American made missiles to attack Moscow. If he does, that will start a war. Who will that profit?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/29/2023 1:56 PM, pH wrote:
>
> Old stuff still in use.....*all* of it!
>
> Well, my Cannondale touring frame (are they even in business anymore?) is

> from the 80's. The SunTour Barcon shifters on it are from my late 70's...

Same here!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

lol...more of that famous kunich focus

Q: What is the oldest equipment you have ?
A: THE DEMOCRATS ARE DESTROYING AMERICA!!!!

[John B.]

On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tommy, where do you get your "facts"? Of the 8 States with the most
stringent rules in the Covid endemic 6 of them had a lower rate of
Covid deaths then Florida and all of them had a lower rate of Covid
infection then Florida.

As for immunization? Well Countries like Cuba - 88.3% vaccinated,
Chile - 92,6%, Brunei - 191,9% (lot of foreigners), Japan 0 71.9% and
Taiwan - 6=87.4% the death rate from Covid is extremely low, in 3
digit numbers, with the exception of Chili - 3350 and Brunei- 3.

Or. to put it another way... You don't know what you are talking
about! Or perhaps you are telling lies again?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 10:40:49 p.m. UTC-5, NFN Smith wrote:
> After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent mileage.
>
> Something that I thought of was the age of some of my stuff. I realized
> that the oldest stuff that I use:
>
> - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that still serve
> me nicely.
>
> - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use regularly
> when it's cold.
>
> I got the pedals used in 1990, and I think I got the arm warmers about a
> year or two before that.

>
> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>

> Smith

I still have a Brook's Competition saddle that Brook's informed me was made in 1963 or 1964. I find it quite comfortable.

Cheers

[John Thompson]

On 4/25/23 22:40, NFN Smith wrote:
> After wasting most of April, I'm trying to get consistent mileage.
>
> Something that I thought of was the age of some of my stuff.  I realized
> that the oldest stuff that I use:
>
> - Hardware: I have a set of 1st generation Look pedals that still serve
> me nicely.

I still use the stock pedals on my 1972 Raleigh Superbe.

> - Clothing: I have a set of acrylic arm warmers that I use regularly
> when it's cold.

I still use merino wool shorts, tights, and jerseys I bought in the late
1970s from Protogs.


--
John Thompson <johnthom...@att.net>

[Luns Tee]

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 3:50:19 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> >On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
> >wrote:
> >>By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
> >>
> >>Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.

> I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
> soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
> presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
> vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
> is a very serious matter that can lead to death.

The torch I was referring to applies flame directly to a copper bit, which in turn is what contacts the workpiece.

https://www.stortz.com/product/perkeo-soldering-iron-w-copper-bit/

I've seen variants where the flame is contained, and some where the fuel source is a gas canister rather than hose. I don't know if the flame in either case would be an issue for flux or galvanizing, but it might just boil down to personal preference.

-Luns

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 22:48:00 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
wrote:

If it was galvanized, i.e., zinc coated, I'd be very apprehensive
about getting a flame anywhere near it as Zinc vapors are really bad
news, but from the video it appears that either the flame is far back
of the soldering tip or that the gas flame is off while actually
soldering.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
<worldo...@gmail.com>:

>What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?

I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>

Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>

Before anybody asks: that bicycle helmet our sons where wearing at that
time moved to the garbage shortly thereafter, without replacement.
Neither of us has worn any bicycle helmet ever since. Its better that
way.


--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

[Roger Meriman]

Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
> <worldo...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>
> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>

>
> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.

I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
start to leak.

Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.

>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/hollandrad/prophete-hollandrad.jpg>
>
> Before anybody asks: that bicycle helmet our sons where wearing at that
> time moved to the garbage shortly thereafter, without replacement.
> Neither of us has worn any bicycle helmet ever since. Its better that
> way.
>
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

There are dramatic differences in what cases deaths and injuries on bicycles. Most deaths have motor vehicle involvement whereas most injuries do not. So while a helmet will not save your life, they will mediate the most common bicycle injuries of falling over by losing your balance mostly as low rates of speed. While I did a study showing that helmets do not effect rates of bicycle deaths at all, I still recommend them. Especially the latest Bontrager Wave Cell helmet, While these may turn out to be no better than the standard helmet, at least they tried to construct a helmet the prevents concussions in normal bicycle crashes.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Mon, 01 May 2023 10:56:42 GMT schrieb Roger Meriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
>> <worldo...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>>
>> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
>> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>>
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>
>
>>
>> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
>> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
>> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.
>
>I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
>start to leak.

Legend has it, that Ortlieb Back Rollers originally where made from PVC
truck tarpaulin, which is extremely strong and tear-resistant. Later,
Ortlieb changed materials (and colors) a few times.
<https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/about-us>

>
>Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
>house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.

That might explain it. In what year did you buy your Ortliebs?


--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

[Roger Meriman]

Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Mon, 01 May 2023 10:56:42 GMT schrieb Roger Meriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Tue, 25 Apr 2023 20:40:43 -0700 schrieb NFN Smith
>>> <worldo...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> What's your oldest stuff that you use regularly?
>>>
>>> I still use the original Ortlieb Back Roller panniers shown in a picture
>>> I took in 1992, while on vacation with my whole family.
>>>
>>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/urlaub/emsland1992.jpeg>
>>
>>>
>>> Sadly, the Sparta Cornwall bicycle is long gone, those panniers are now
>>> mounted on an inferior dutch style bicycle made by Prophete. Good enough
>>> for the use case, shopping and transportation nearby.
>>
>> I use those though they only last few years, before they get worn thin, and
>> start to leak.
>
> Legend has it, that Ortlieb Back Rollers originally where made from PVC
> truck tarpaulin, which is extremely strong and tear-resistant. Later,
> Ortlieb changed materials (and colors) a few times.
> <https://www.ortlieb.com/en_us/about-us>
>
>
>>
>> Almost certainly as I brush them as I pass through the alley way behind my
>> house to the street so they rub on the pebbles dashed wall.
>
> That might explain it. In what year did you buy your Ortliebs?
>
>

First I think in 2015 but those died after few years so now on 2nd pair
though I commute much less now, so though still get worn brushing past
house and probably A frame etc stuff they put in park entrances as so
worried about motorbike use!

But so far haven’t started to leak they tend to not tear but just start to
get thin, but I still rate them far better than cheaper ones I used before.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Mine were waterproof canvas and while I bought them in the 60's they are still around in the garage somewhere. I run across them every now and again. But I am limited in my range now to a day or two since I don't want to get too far from my medication.

[Joerg]

On 4/27/23 3:50 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 05:16:01 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
>> wrote:
>>

>>> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:46:09?PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>>> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
>>>> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
>>>> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
>>>> why there are several irons.

>>>
>>> By chance, I saw such irons still in active professional use just a few years ago. Rather than the bed of coals, I think it was a small propane burner in a pot.
>>>
>>> Lest anybody assume otherwise, this was not for soldering wiring, but for soldering roof flashing. Apparently it's still common practice. I don't know why this would be preferred over a handheld propane torch, heating the iron directly in use, but presume the roofers know what they're doing better than I would.
>>>

>>> -Luns

>>
> I'm guessing but it is possibly that using a torch might burn off any
> soldering flux that was used and certainly using an open flame
> presents a problem if the metal is "galvanized" as an open flame will
> vaporize the zinc coating, the "galvanizing", and breathing zinc fumes
> is a very serious matter that can lead to death.
>

Probably the main reson is that they don't want to carry anything with a
flame onto the roof. Too easy to have an accident and then you have a
fire (I've seen it happen).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 5:46:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> In my case soldering irons from the days when Edison electric light
> wasn't around yet. You have to place them into a bed of coals or into a
> fire, wait, then solder. After 2-3 fittings, rinse and repeat. Which is
> why there are several irons.

> --
> Regards, Joerg
>

We had to learn to use those things in shop class. Probably that was eighth grade so around 1967, give or take. The tip was about an inch wide and about 4 inches long, and after heating we used it to join sheet metal. I have never seen one used in the wild.

[Tim R]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>

> John B.

This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM

[John B.]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 17:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

(:-) I even remember a "Hooch", in this case similar to a tent
platform (yes you can google it) with a galvanized roof that had
voltage on the metal roof. It turned out that for some reason someone
had connected the galvanized metal roof to the neutral, apparently
believing that he had "grounded" it (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

Maybe they just wanted to keep cats off.

[John B.]

I don't think so (:-) the guys living in the "hooch" got tired of
getting shocked I guess and call it in as a discrepancy to the
electric shop where I was working at the time.

But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/16/2023 9:36 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> But re cats on the roof... electricity doesn't work that way. You can
> sit on a 4,000 volt transmission line with no problems at all.... as
> long as you don't touch anything but the line (:-) So cats jumping up
> on the roof probably wouldn't feel a thing (:-)

At one place we lived for a while long ago, we had problems with large
neighborhood dogs allowed to run free at night. It was not unusual for
them to overturn our garbage cans. Eventually I ran a hot line to the
garbage cans. I knew there was some risk, so I plugged it in last thing
at night and unplugged first thing in the morning.

Within a day or two we were awakened by a dog yelping loudly and running
away. The problem never returned.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.

[Tim R]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17 PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.

Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder, guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar. The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."

[William Crowell]

The neutral is "grounded" via the center tap of the pole pig secondary, which is a ground only insofar as it theoretically is at ground potential, but if one leg of the pole pig secondary is loaded down a lot more than the other leg, there will be voltage on the center tap. Also, the actual ground is a long distance away, at the distribution station, so it's not a really low-resistance ground.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/16/2023 9:51 PM, Tim R wrote:
> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.

Two stories from my teens: We used to walk or bike to a neighborhood
convenience store and/or ice cream parlor. They had two chest-style
coolers on the floor with glass sliding tops, containing various ice
cream treats. For a while, we found we could get a strong tingle by
touching both coolers. For teenagers, that was fun. We were disappointed
when it got fixed.

Also fun for a while was the electric fence wire atop the chain link
fence around a nearby hunting club. We'd pick up a fallen branch and
hold it against the wire to get a funny tingle.

One day one of the less-bright members of our crew decided that instead
of a wooden branch, he'd test the wire with a bit of metal pipe he found
lying on the ground. His loud yell convinced the rest of us that no more
testing was needed.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:51:17?PM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
>> I did get a nice tingle while connecting computer cables back in the manufacturing plant. The office network was that old twin-ax stuff. The computer was plugged into an outlet wired backwards, resulting in a hot chassis, but the admin person had no ground nearby and never got shocked. So the shield on the cable connected to the chassis was also hot, but when I tried connecting to the next cable (barrel connector between the two male cable ends I think, it's been a while) I had hot in one hand and ground in the other.
>
>Better story from that same plant. Maintenance guy was up on a ladder, guy was a yankee in a rural Alabama plant so didn't quite fit in, anyway he was about to wire in an outlet for a time clock or something similar. The maintenance chief and I were watching him, so he hollered down was the circuit off. Maintenance chief yelled back, yup. Next, huge amount of cuss words from the ladder guy. Circuit was NOT off. Mainteance chief looked at me and said, "next time he'll check."

One day when I was around twelve years old, my farm dwelling parents
had some visitors from the city. They brought their son, who was a few
years older than me and who thought he walked on water and clearly
looked down on this country farm boy.

I decided to take him down a few notches by taking him out in the
pasture to show him how to shoot gophers with my .22 rifle. After
picking off a couple of the seed-corn eating rodents, I offered to
show him how. He refused the offer, knowing he had no chance of
matching my shooting.

Undaunted, I led him over to an electric fence and explained that it
was electrified and that he'd get a mild shock if he touched it. He
did, and he got the mild shock. Then I told him that you could pee on
it and the salt in urine made it almost totally non-conductive. I
showed him by peeing on the fence. "See, I said, I only got a slight
tingle, which actually, I said with a wink, wasn't all that
unpleasant.

I didn't tell him that if you listened carefully, you could hear when
the device switched the power on and off. I'd been careful to modify
my aim so as not to pee on the fence when it was hot.

I don't remember the punishment I got from that, but I'll bet my mom
and dad laughed about it later.

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15 PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:

Aside from the fact that I'm an EE and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician. This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.

[Roger Meriman]

Seems to give a bigger jolt if someone else touched you as well! Electric
fences that is!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15?PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:

>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>> >
>> > John B.
>>
>> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>Aside from the fact that I'm an EE and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician. This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.

My goodness! Now Tommy has become an Electrical Engineer... with out
ever attending school or even as Frank did, taking the PE examination.

Will miracles never cease?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 6:35:21 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15?PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
> >> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
> >> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
> >> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
> >> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
> >> >
> >> > John B.
> >>
> >> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
> >Aside from the fact that I'm an EE

No, he's not. If he were, he would know that

> and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers

is wrong

> that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician.

Must be the same brother who convinced him that aluminum oxide is flammable. What kind of idiot who claims to have done professional telephone wiring thinks they bring the neutral to earth ground at the pole? There's this thing called the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) which has been enforced as law in california since the early 60's.

> > This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.

The NEC required grounded polarized outlets since 1962.
https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70
"Adopted in all 50 states, NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) is the benchmark for safe electrical design, installation, and inspection to protect people and property from electrical hazards."

If his house was built before 1962 it may have two-wire outlets and a fuse box. For someone who claims to be such a brilliant and wealthy retired engineer, it's surprising he never took the initiative to have his house upgraded just as a safety precaution. After all, "taking precautions has never killed people."

> My goodness! Now Tommy has become an Electrical Engineer... with out
> ever attending school or even as Frank did, taking the PE examination.
>
> Will miracles never cease?

He's been claiming that since he figured out how to post on the internet. Not that it makes it any more truthful....


> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/17/2023 4:00 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Aside from the fact that I'm an EE and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician. This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground.

SMH

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

We had a somewhat similar experience with a kid from New York City
that some social group had given a month's vacation in the wilds of a
small New England town.

After listening to his bragging about New York and complaints about
our little town for a while a couple of the lads took him on a walk
through the woods. Of course the "woods" near town were all second
growth so not really the African Rain Forest, but perhaps to a city
boy they did seem to be a wilderness..

Anyway, in their walk they came across a colony of rabbits and
anywhere there are rabbits there are little round, brown objects on
the ground.

The New York Boy asks, what are those little brown things" and the
local "hillbilly" tells him that "those are "rabbit berries", try one
they are pretty tasty". So the "city slicker" eats a couple and says,
"they don't taste all that good" and the Local Yokel says, "Maybe they
weren't ripe, try a couple more". So the guy tries a couple more and
says that they still don't taste very good, and they go back to town.

Of course, the local lad tells his mate about the "rabbit berries" and
that guy tells his friend and in about 2-1/2 minutes every kid in town
knows the story if the rabbet berries,

I don't think that anyone ever told the City boy what "rabbit berries"
were but it took a lot of sting out of his stories. Sitting there
listening to his bragging and thinking, "This guy eats rabbet
berries?"





--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 16:27:25 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 6:35:21?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 May 2023 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:13:15?PM UTC-7, Tim R wrote:
>> >> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:08:46?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>> >> > Sorry Tommy but I've seen a number of structures with voltage on the
>> >> > neutral leg of the circuit so assuming that the Neutral is grounded in
>> >> > the sense of zero voltage is a fallacy. Yes, it's probably true but
>> >> > before you grab the line better check the voltage, is any.
>> >> >
>> >> > John B.
>> >>
>> >> This guy takes forever to get to the point but he does explain the hot neutral pretty well.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhFJzQB6_NM
>> >Aside from the fact that I'm an EE
>
>No, he's not. If he were, he would know that
>
>> and here in California neutral lines are grounded at the pole transformers
>
>is wrong
>
>> that was confirmed by my brother who is a licensed electrician.
>
>Must be the same brother who convinced him that aluminum oxide is flammable. What kind of idiot who claims to have done professional telephone wiring thinks they bring the neutral to earth ground at the pole? There's this thing called the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) which has been enforced as law in california since the early 60's.
>
>> > This may not be the case in every state but I do not have a third wire ground and have never received a shock from the neutral to ground. However, taking precautions has never killed people.
>
>The NEC required grounded polarized outlets since 1962.
>https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70
>"Adopted in all 50 states, NFPA 70, National Electrical Code (NEC) is the benchmark for safe electrical design, installation, and inspection to protect people and property from electrical hazards."
>
>If his house was built before 1962 it may have two-wire outlets and a fuse box. For someone who claims to be such a brilliant and wealthy retired engineer, it's surprising he never took the initiative to have his house upgraded just as a safety precaution. After all, "taking precautions has never killed people."
>

According to freely available real estate records Tommy's house was
built in 1955. He, or his Mom apparently bought it used in 1978 for
$70,000.

>> My goodness! Now Tommy has become an Electrical Engineer... with out
>> ever attending school or even as Frank did, taking the PE examination.
>>
>> Will miracles never cease?
>
>He's been claiming that since he figured out how to post on the internet. Not that it makes it any more truthful....
>
>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

No, the answer is "cat on a hot tin roof".

[Radey Shouman]

I don't suppose you put a "Danger, high voltage" sign up? Dogs can't read.

I can't help imagining a neighbor. I'll call her Mrs. White, after a
neighbor I had when young. I picture her grey haired, nearly as old as
you are now, but since they put that new fangled heart pacemaker in she
can't sleep through the dawn. She takes a walk past your house, just to
get some air, and notices a bit of trash in your driveway. Being a
sweet old bird, she picks it up to throw it in your bin.

Mrs. White:
(thinks) Oh my Jesus! I've shook hands with the Devil and he won't let go!
(says) RRRRrrRRRrrrRRRrrrRRrRrRrrrr

I know, I know. Those neighbors were all no account white trash that
would no more take the notion of walking anywhere in a morning with a
perfectly good black pickup in the driveway than they would of flapping
their arms to fly to the moon. And she had it coming. You would never
step in *her* driveway, one of those crackers might shoot you. F*ck
them if they can't take a 120V joke.

It's just a thought experiment. Suppose Mrs. White *dies*? How many
months of prison time do you supppose that would merit?

Just about the wimpiest electric fence transformer you can buy is more
than enough to impress any but the toughest of dogs. I put one up once,
but it was to keep the dogs in, not out. Worked great.

[John B.]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 21:45:15 -0400, Radey Shouman

Well... except that the "cat on a hot tin roof" was a women referred
to as "Maggy the Cat" (:-) and "on a hot tin roof" apparently
referenced to her sexual activities (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

And speaking of polarity, she was hot.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

I've read that rabbits eat them. Apparently they're nutritious. Maybe it's just
a matter of taste?

Here you are: https://bunnylady.com/why-do-rabbits-eat-their-own-poop/#:~:text=Rabbits%20eat%20their%20own%20poop%20because%20it%20helps%20them%20obtain,rabbits%20must%20eat%20their%20cecotropes.

Not that I'm interested in tasting them!

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I'd say the ones that let their dogs run loose all night very likely were.

> that would no more take the notion of walking anywhere in a morning with a
> perfectly good black pickup in the driveway than they would of flapping
> their arms to fly to the moon. And she had it coming. You would never
> step in *her* driveway, one of those crackers might shoot you. F*ck
> them if they can't take a 120V joke.
>
> It's just a thought experiment. Suppose Mrs. White *dies*? How many
> months of prison time do you supppose that would merit?

For what it's worth, this was not in anything like a typical American suburban
neighborhood. It was miles out of town, and our property was on the corner of
a minor road and a gravel road. Not the sort of place that many people took
walks of any kind, let alone in the morning.

I knew there was some risk, but I judged it to be tiny and worthwhile.
And it turned out that I was right. The dogs never came back. You're
arguing against success.

- Frank Krygowski