Wheels - Mavic Open Pro vs DT Swiss R1800
Ciera
wheels, Mavic MA40 with Campy Record hubs, are almost 30 yr old. I
already have 9-speed drive train parts, so I'm probably going to
spread my rear triangle to 130mm and get some modern wheels.
A couple of wheel sets are on sale locally. Both wheel sets are
unused, i.e., no mileage, and are listed at about the same price. One
is Mavic Open Pro with Ultegra hubs (I suspect they are 6600 series,
but I don't know that yet). The rims are 32H with 3X spokes. The other
wheel set is DT Swiss R1800. The hubs, I think, are DT Swiss 370. The
front rim is 20H with a radial spoke pattern and the rear is 24H with
a 2X pattern.
Do you think the DT Swiss wheels are strong enough for recreational/
training riding with a rider weight of 190lb? The DT Swiss web site
says the max rider weight for the wheels is 220lb. I am old school and
am familiar with 3X and 32 to 36H rims, so the Open Pro rims seem a
safer way to go, assuming these rims don't suffer from the dreaded
Mavic cracks at the spoke holes.
Anyone want to give their opinion of these wheels?
Thanks,
Ciera
bfd
wheelset uses standard spokes (probably db) that can be repaired at
"anybikeshopusa" if broken. Same for the rim, 32h rims are plentiful
and you can replace with anything, especially if you find the Mavic to
be noisy. Further, shimano hubs are arguably the quietest on the
market, although I admit to not knowing much about the DT hub. The
ultegra hub is also very easy to service. Finally, I have 3 or so
wheelsets with Mavic OP and the only one I had crack at the spoke
holes was a rear wheel that had almost 20K miles on it. I presume it
was due to use and not the hard anodizing. Good luck!
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your spoke holes should outlive your brake surface, but on an Open Pro
tensioned above about 115kgf, they may not -- which is s an expensive
shame. I just cracked a spoke hole on my last Open Pro and will now
look for a different rim -- the Aeroheads are not much better
(although the can tolerate slightly higher tensions), and at about
200lbs, something in the 450+ g range is probably in order for me for
commuting.
As for the OPs two sets, I would buy the Open Pro because I am
familiar with the wheel and have everything I need in my basement to
fix a broken spoke, freehub body, etc -- but, the DT is probably a
fine wheel, too. The DTs were spec'd on Giants and did not get a lot
of distribution from what I can tell -- so not a lot of reviews. They
are heavy and probably pretty durable. Both wheels probably would be
fine for a 190lb rider. But if you do break a spoke on a low spoke
count wheel, you're going to have a nice wobble that a few tuns of a
spoke wrench will not fix, and getting the wrench on the spoke
probably means taking off the tire and fishing around in the rim with
a special wrench. For pure field serviceability, the Open Pro wheel
will be better. It may also be lighter and have a fairly similar
aerodynamic profile, if those things matter. -- Jay Beattie.
Lou Holtman
. For pure field serviceability, the Open Pro wheel
> will be better.
Huh?? I like DT hubs because of their serviceability. No trial and error
adjustment like Shimano hubs. Better sealed too.
<https://picasaweb.google.com/LoetjeH/DT240S#5300525662636801666>
Lou
landotter
For a road rim, you can't do much better for the buck than an Alex
R390. Socketed and a claimed 485g. A friend of mine is a big
knucklehead, and he can't even destroy them.
>
> As for the OPs two sets, I would buy the Open Pro because I am
> familiar with the wheel and have everything I need in my basement to
> fix a broken spoke, freehub body, etc -- but, the DT is probably a
> fine wheel, too. The DTs were spec'd on Giants and did not get a lot
> of distribution from what I can tell -- so not a lot of reviews. They
> are heavy and probably pretty durable. Both wheels probably would be
> fine for a 190lb rider. But if you do break a spoke on a low spoke
> count wheel, you're going to have a nice wobble that a few tuns of a
> spoke wrench will not fix, and getting the wrench on the spoke
> probably means taking off the tire and fishing around in the rim with
> a special wrench. For pure field serviceability, the Open Pro wheel
> will be better. It may also be lighter and have a fairly similar
> aerodynamic profile, if those things matter. -- Jay Beattie.
I'm usually with you on low spoke wheels, but I really hate Mavic
gear. DT makes some really nice rims and hubs. Just make sure the
spokes are seated in the flange and that the tensions are correct.
Chalo
>
> A couple of wheel sets are on sale locally. Both wheel sets are
> unused, i.e., no mileage, and are listed at about the same price. One
> is Mavic Open Pro with Ultegra hubs (I suspect they are 6600 series,
> but I don't know that yet). The rims are 32H with 3X spokes. The other
> wheel set is DT Swiss R1800. The hubs, I think, are DT Swiss 370. The
> front rim is 20H with a radial spoke pattern and the rear is 24H with
> a 2X pattern.
Rims are one of those categories of bike parts where expensive ones
are not necessarily better than cheaper ones. Mavic and DT rims are
both expensive and not necessarily worth any extra cost versus Alex or
Sun rims.
The choice you specify is between a proven wheel layout with a known
bad rim, and an presumed okay rim with a known bad wheel
configuration. So I'd choose C.) neither of the above.
Chalo
Jay Beattie
I'm talking about rims and truing after a broken spoke. On a
conventional rim, I just pull out my key-chain spoke wrench and adjust
the wheel. On many prefab wheels, you have to take off the tire, rim
strip, etc. and use a special wrench. As far as hubs go, I never work
on them in the field, and Shimano is more convenient for me at home
because I have old hubs and freehub bodies sitting around that I can
use for parts if necessary. Buying DT would mean starting over with a
new system. I have found Shimano seals to be excellent, particularly
the off road models. I ride them in the rain six months a year or
more -- today for example (and hail). -- Jay Beattie.
James
Change yourself. Attain the physique of a lithe young girl. I haven't
broken a spoke in a prefab, magic dusted, overpriced with mystique Mavic
wheel since 1996, when I caught someones rear skewer in my front wheel
in a race.
JS.
Jay Beattie
>
> - Show quoted text -
The 32/36 wire spoke wheel is practically a thing of the past, at
least with racers or new light-bike purchasers. The low spoke count
wheels must be working out for a large number of people at this
point. I'll switch over if a set comes OEM on some wonder bike that I
buy in a final effort to keep up with people half my age -- or if all
my Shimano hubs wear out, which will be never. I'll never go low spoke
count on my work bike. -- Jay Beattie.
russell...@yahoo.com
I'm kind of with Chalo on this one. And kind of not. Build a good
wheel with Shimano hubs and DT rims. The one DT rim I built was
perfectly round and easy to build with. Unlike the two Sun rims I
built. Bad warped rims. The Sun rims were bought to replace two Open
Pro rims that cracked at the eyelets on the non drive side rear. Do
not buy Mavic Open Pro rims. One wheel had 10-15 thousand or more
miles. The other had maybe 5 thousand miles. Mavic makes crap rims.
The Alex Crosstini rims I built with were OK but not nearly as good as
the DT rim. DT makes premium rims. And charges for them. Mavic
makes crap rims and charges premium prices. Sun and Alex rims are
fairly cheap but much less quality than DT. Still better than Mavic
though.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Ciera wrote:
> > >
> > > A couple of wheel sets are on sale locally. Both wheel sets are
> > > unused, i.e., no mileage, and are listed at about the same price. One
> > > is Mavic Open Pro with Ultegra hubs (I suspect they are 6600 series,
> > > but I don't know that yet). The rims are 32H with 3X spokes. The other
> > > wheel set is DT Swiss R1800. The hubs, I think, are DT Swiss 370. The
> > > front rim is 20H with a radial spoke pattern and the rear is 24H with
> > > a 2X pattern.
> >
> > Rims are one of those categories of bike parts where expensive ones
> > are not necessarily better than cheaper ones. Mavic and DT rims are
> > both expensive and not necessarily worth any extra cost versus Alex or
> > Sun rims.
>
> > The choice you specify is between a proven wheel layout with a known
> > bad rim, and an presumed okay rim with a known bad wheel
> > configuration. So I'd choose C.) neither of the above.
>
> wheel with Shimano hubs and DT rims. The one DT rim I built was
> perfectly round and easy to build with. Unlike the two Sun rims I
> built. Bad warped rims. The Sun rims were bought to replace two Open
> Pro rims that cracked at the eyelets on the non drive side rear.
The only Sun rims I have had quality-related problems with haver been
polished Sun M13II rims in 700c and 32h drilling. For the past couple
of years they have had bad joints that flare (widen) when the wheel is
tensioned. I have to squash them back in with rim pliers. That's
pretty sorry quality, but least they look very nice and only cost the
customer $35.
About half a dozen years ago, on a rim that was probably eight years
old at that time, I had an eyelet crack and separate on a polished
CR18. (Just the grommet, not the drilled hole.) I replaced the
eyelet with a small washer and that wheel is still in service.
The bulk of Sun rims I have built with have been Rhyno LItes and
CR18s. Those have all built up nicely, without problems.
> Sun and Alex rims are fairly cheap but much less quality than DT.
In the last wholesale order at my shop, we got both an Alex R390 and a
DT rim that cost a little more (but not very much for a DT rim; both
rims were less than $60 retail). Both rims were the same wheel size
and color. There was no comparing them-- the Alex was double eyeleted
and well finished; the DT was plain drilled and corny OEM-looking both
inside and outside.
There are plenty of Alex rims that look just as corny as that DT
specimen, but they cost 40% as much.
I expect that a $100+ rim from DT would be relatively nice. What I do
not expect is to have to charge $100 or more for a relatively nice
rim.
Chalo
Lou Holtman
> On May 8, 12:41 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> > Op 8-5-2011 20:27, Jay Beattie schreef:
> > . For pure field serviceability, the Open Pro wheel
>
> > > will be better.
>
> > Huh?? I like DT hubs because of their serviceability. No trial and error
> > adjustment like Shimano hubs. Better sealed too.
>
> > <https://picasaweb.google.com/LoetjeH/DT240S#5300525662636801666>
>
> I'm talking about rims and truing after a broken spoke.
How often does that happen? Didn't break is spoke in the last 20
years.
> On a conventional rim, I just pull out my key-chain spoke wrench and adjust
> the wheel. On many prefab wheels, you have to take off the tire, rim
> strip, etc. and use a special wrench.
All the DT swiss prebuild wheels I know, use conventional spokes and
nipples. It is the low spoke count that leaves you in the field after
you break a spoke, but again how often does that happen these days?
> As far as hubs go, I never work
> on them in the field, and Shimano is more convenient for me at home
> because I have old hubs and freehub bodies sitting around that I can
> use for parts if necessary. Buying DT would mean starting over with a
> new system.
We are not talking about your situation are we?
> I have found Shimano seals to be excellent, particularly
> the off road models. I ride them in the rain six months a year or
> more -- today for example (and hail).
I said DT hubs are BETTER sealed. I use a rude and fast cleaning
method for my ATB's and winterbikes. DT hubs are the only one that can
handly that kind of abuse. For road use this is not an issue though.
Lou
andre...@aol.com
I was suspicious of boutique wheels. Bought a pair of Vuelta XRPs at
bike island for 170. 30mm rims, 20 spokes up front and 24 rear and
ultra smooth sealed bearing hubs. I weigh 200 with cycling clothes.
About 6,000 miles on the wheels in smooth and rough roads. Run
railroad tracks, holes on roads jump curves, bunny hoped cattle
guards, etc. I have never ever had to true wheels, and they show no
signs of damage or anything of the sort. The only thing that I did was
to stress relieve them when I got them.
With standard wheels, I would have to true them once a year or more.
If I buy components and build a pair of 105 hubs with rim and spokes,
it will cost me about the same as the vueltas. If I buy a built pair
it may even cost me more.
Go to bikeisland.com. get the vuelta zero lites for $160. very strong,
excellent customer service.
If you want ridiculously strong wheels, get vueltas with 30mm rims and
32 spokes.
andre...@aol.com
Jay Beattie
> On 8 mei, 23:50, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 8, 12:41 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> > > Op 8-5-2011 20:27, Jay Beattie schreef:
> > > . For pure field serviceability, the Open Pro wheel
>
> > > > will be better.
>
> > > Huh?? I like DT hubs because of their serviceability. No trial and error
> > > adjustment like Shimano hubs. Better sealed too.
>
> > > <https://picasaweb.google.com/LoetjeH/DT240S#5300525662636801666>
>
> > I'm talking about rims and truing after a broken spoke.
>
> How often does that happen? Didn't break is spoke in the last 20
> years.
With the one pair of pre-fab wheels I have owned, I broke four
"standard" (bladed, light SS) spokes -- two front and two rear.
They were not DT wheels. I sold them to a lighter rider. Whether the
DT pre-builds use standard spokes is certainly something I would check
before buying.
>
> > On a conventional rim, I just pull out my key-chain spoke wrench and adjust
> > the wheel. On many prefab wheels, you have to take off the tire, rim
> > strip, etc. and use a special wrench.
>
> All the DT swiss prebuild wheels I know, use conventional spokes and
> nipples. It is the low spoke count that leaves you in the field after
> you break a spoke, but again how often does that happen these days?
>
> > As far as hubs go, I never work
> > on them in the field, and Shimano is more convenient for me at home
> > because I have old hubs and freehub bodies sitting around that I can
> > use for parts if necessary. Buying DT would mean starting over with a
> > new system.
>
> We are not talking about your situation are we?
Yes, I was. My post explained my preference which may in fact reflect
the OP's situation if he is a long-time Shimano user. -- Jay Beattie.
Ciera
For the original question about these wheels, I think I'm going to
take Chalo's advice, that is,
>The choice you specify is between a proven wheel layout with a known
>bad rim, and an presumed okay rim with a known bad wheel
>configuration. So I'd choose C.) neither of the above.
The long story, if anyone is interested, is that I have two vintage
steel bikes, both 7-speed now. One was an excellent frame for it's
time (Medici Pro Strada), and the other is a good quality frame of
unknown specific origin (a smallish Japanese company). For the Medici
I bought a rear wheel of DT Swiss RR465 rim with Ultegra hub and DT
14/15 gauge spokes in 3X, and a bunch of parts to install a triple
crank with 10-speed cassette. Since I already have some NOS 9-speed
drivetrain parts, I was thinking about updating the Japanese bike to a
9-speed w/ triple, which would also require a new rear wheel. Hence, I
looked at what was available locally on Craigslist and that led to my
original question.
After reading your responses, I think I'll keep the Japanese bike a 7-
speed for now. After all, it's rear wheel is old but still going
strong, and there is another one in the garage. Besides, I've also got
a box of freewheels that should be used at some point in time.
On the other hand, I'd only have to lay out $150 more plus the cost of
a rear wheel to get the second bike to 9-speed. Hmmm ...
Thanks,
Ciera
russell...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
These were the DT rims I used. RR 465. Double eyelets. Black paint
with ground sidewalls. Looks? They fit the bike I was building it
for. 55 Euros. $70. They built nicely.
http://www.starbike.com/php/product_info.php?lang=en&pid=13142
R 450 rims. 31 Euros. No eyelets.
http://www.starbike.com/php/product_info.php?lang=en&pid=13153
Alex Crosstini rims were the ones I used. No eyelets, ground
sidewalls. Ok but not as round as the DT rims.
http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?btn=1&cat=1&id=30
http://velospec.com/components/alexrims/crostinir32
Sun Assault rims were the ones I used. No eyelets, ground sidewalls.
To replace Mavic Open Pro rims that broke at the eyelets. Same ERD as
the Open Pro so could move the hubs and spokes over easily. Not round
and a chore to build with. Not as good as the Alex rims. Cannot
even mention them in the same sentence with the DT rims.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=24954
Art Harris
>
> The only Sun rims I have had quality-related problems with haver been
> polished Sun M13II rims in 700c and 32h drilling. For the past couple
> of years they have had bad joints that flare (widen) when the wheel is
> tensioned. I have to squash them back in with rim pliers. That's
> pretty sorry quality, but least they look very nice and only cost the
> customer $35.
>
I have the same problem on a 36h M13II. Any special technique for
squashing the joints back? Does the wheel have to be de-tensioned
first?
Art Harris
Chalo
strung just as tight as you want it when you shape the joint. Tension
all the way up, stress relieve using Jobst's method, and then true up
any anomalies. Then mash the joint back to the right width.
I used Bicycle Research rim pliers, but channellock pliers with many
turns of masking tape on the jaws would probably work too. Do it in
the truing stand if possible, and go a little at a time until you get
what you're looking for.
Chalo
thirty-six
You'll find the 9-speed a little more awkward to the fuel used. 7-
speeds run well on bananas and chips.
James
Sounds cheap and nasty. Similarly I heard from a LBS that velocity rims
shake loose at the joint. Must get exciting.
I'll stick to my "overpriced with lashings of European mistique and
without more spokes than I need" rims.
J "With the physique of a lithe young girl" S.
Ronko
6d1d72...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
ciera...@gmail.com says...
to their usual quality . . . and price. I believe they are a speced out
OEM wheelset made in a far east factory for Giant bicycles,
specifically the TCR. A hand built wheels set, done right, using the
industry standard Open Pro, DT competition spokes, a good wheel
builder, and good hubs will be better in terms of staying in true and
lasting far longer. And they will cost a lot more than the DT
R1800. I'm not wild about the Ultegra hubs. If you can find a used
clean set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs, they probably could be had for $130
or so and would be a good choice or something along those lines.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Art Harris wrote:
> >>
> >> Chalo wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The only Sun rims I have had quality-related problems with haver been
> >>> polished Sun M13II rims in 700c and 32h drilling. For the past couple
> >>> of years they have had bad joints that flare (widen) when the wheel is
> >>> tensioned. I have to squash them back in with rim pliers. That's
> >>> pretty sorry quality, but least they look very nice and only cost the
> >>> customer $35.
> >>
> >> I have the same problem on a 36h M13II. Any special technique for
> >> squashing the joints back? Does the wheel have to be de-tensioned
> >> first?
> >
> > Don't detension-- the flare is tension sensitive, so have your wheel
> > strung just as tight as you want it when you shape the joint. Tension
> > all the way up, stress relieve using Jobst's method, and then true up
> > any anomalies. Then mash the joint back to the right width.
> >
> > I used Bicycle Research rim pliers, but channellock pliers with many
> > turns of masking tape on the jaws would probably work too. Do it in
> > the truing stand if possible, and go a little at a time until you get
> > what you're looking for.
>
> Sounds cheap and nasty.
They are pretty nasty. I prefer the less pretty, less nasty models
from Sun. Hard to go wrong with a Rhyno Lite as long as you are cool
with 30mm or fatter tires.
For reliably cheap and nasty rims these days you have to use
Weinmann. Save on the purchase, spend on the build (and then some).
> Similarly I heard from a LBS that velocity rims
> shake loose at the joint. Must get exciting.
I've never seen that problem. Velocity rims make my A list for
quality, but they cost a lot for plain drilled rims. Also, their
inerrant precision of years past seems to have fallen by the wayside.
Recent Deep-Vs I have built were none too perfect.
> I'll stick to my "overpriced with lashings of European mistique and
> without more spokes than I need" rims.
Okay.
http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-104.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cracked%20mavic%20rim&tbm=isch
Chalo
thirty-six
Yes you overtensioned the spokes and done in a specific manner,
tightening in sequential order. Tensioning is best done using an
alternating diagonal pattern except for offset rear hub flanges where
the drive side is tensioned first in a diagonal pattern followed by
the others also in a diagonal pattern. Some rims are not so prone to
this, but it is essentially the poor tensioning technique which is to
blame. For 36 hole rims tension every 7th spoke counting the turns
from the undone (rattley loose) position, which should be 3 or two on
the first pass then 1 then some fractional amount to finish.
AMuzi
Only Velocity's econo model "Twin Hollow" is pinned.
The other 99% of their product has a nicely welded seam
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
James
Why do you need such a huge tyre? 23mm has been fine for me for years,
unless I head offroad.
> For reliably cheap and nasty rims these days you have to use
> Weinmann. Save on the purchase, spend on the build (and then some).
Years ago folks in the touring club thought their concave rims were the
bees knees, yet still some overweight riders were able to destroy them
regularly. I toured with full camping setup on a Repco Superlite, that
came with very cheap and nasty alloy rims.
Really, attaining the physique of a lithe young girl has many benefits.
>> Similarly I heard from a LBS that velocity rims
>> shake loose at the joint. Must get exciting.
>
> I've never seen that problem. Velocity rims make my A list for
> quality, but they cost a lot for plain drilled rims. Also, their
> inerrant precision of years past seems to have fallen by the wayside.
> Recent Deep-Vs I have built were none too perfect.
Yet still they languish in the sewer over here.
>> I'll stick to my "overpriced with lashings of European mistique and
>> without more spokes than I need" rims.
>
> Okay.
>
> http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-104.html
One really bad idea in how many years? Tubular carbon spokes were
destined for early retirement. Far less aero and prone to damage. I
would never go down this path.
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cracked%20mavic%20rim&tbm=isch
Change the google search from Mavic to Velocity you see they are not
immune, and presumably have less exposure.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1Zb7K43b1D4/SLgxnASj3ZI/AAAAAAAAAhY/yBG-WIgZRj4/s400/deepv.jpg
http://journal.goingslowly.com/2009/08/velocity-rims.html
JS.
James
>
> Only Velocity's econo model "Twin Hollow" is pinned.
>
> The other 99% of their product has a nicely welded seam
>
Have you seen any fail?
JS.
AMuzi
Of course, as any physical object. The determined abusive
rider can wreck anything eventually.
Not common enough to Velocity to be a concern, certainly not
considering their place within all rims as a group.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
For the most durable rim, you want the HED Stalingrad wheels:
<http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j47/joemowens/HEDStalingrad.jpg>.
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.