"Confusion reigns as states reverse course on 'essential' status for bike shops"

[sms]

<https://www.bicycleretailer.com/retail-news/2020/03/17/some-bay-area-stores-declare-themselves-essential-and-remain-open-despite>

Mike Jacubowsky, who used to post in this group, is quoted.

He also has a letter to the editor in the latest paper issue but I could
not find it online. The web site is not updated with the latest issue
right away.

[cycl...@yahoo.com]

Don't you think that bike shops are essential? Even if just for exercise and not commuters there is absolutely no doubt that you have to have bike repairs made by professionals.

Since I have put one of my new bikes in the shop to have the Di2 wiring installed among some other things, it upsets me that the owner hasn't been to his shop since these shelter in place directives have come down. I think that this owner probably has a mother or some such to take care of but it is virtually impossible to protect people from a virus we are now hearing can exist on metal or glass surfaces for up to week. That means ever bottle or can to come in the front door is a source of infection. All you have to do is go to a supermarket and observe the preposterous lengths that they are going to force "social distancing" in the checkout lines while you can observe that every can and bottle and box and plastic bread wrapper has been touched and moves by dozens of other customers attempting to find the best out of a diminishing selection of whatever.

This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies.

Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is limited.

[Tim McNamara]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@yahoo.com
<cycl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but

"Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait out
the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place,"
"social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions.

> a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear to
> have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
> this specific type of virus,

Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make
those by the millions of doses.

> hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst
> symptoms in 8 to 12 hours

Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last
hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for
example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any
powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be
great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19
would be tremendously helpful.

> and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This
> last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have proof
> of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're only
> testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do not
> have the antibodies.

Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action
shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then he
can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be
hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be! This
is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in
antibodies and immunities.

> Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the
> population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use the
> transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested and
> showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are showing
> with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of treatment is
> limited.

The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co.
There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other
countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump
administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives.

Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please
continue to disregard reality.

[AMuzi]

That was demographically posited weeks before the President
mentioned it because Lupus sufferers, who are prescribed
hydrochloroquine, were underrepresented in Wuhan virus
positives. After noticing that anomaly, a French doctor
tried a small set with positive indications, followed by
others in other countries.

I pointedly did not say 'proven' or 'effective' or 'cured'
because so far no one has run a 'half get treated, half die'
test. But as was clearly stated, 'may be helpful'.

Even I am surprised at how vicious the criticism of that
statement has been, claiming the protocol will needlessly
kill people, DJT is no doctor and so on. So I called an
acquaintance who lives with Lupus. She reports no problems
after some 20 years of using hydrochloroquine. In fact, one
reason it's suddenly available in great quantities is that
it's neither new nor rare.

As always, a simple factual statement such as, "I just do
not like the guy" would be much better than making things up.



--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

Left wing source, quoting a Democrat Party elected official:

https://www.newsweek.com/dem-lawmaker-says-trump-saved-her-life-recommending-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-1496469

[news18]

Again, another antedotal mention without medical proof.
Obviousy not a whacko christian otherwise they'de have stated that
reading the bible saved them

FWIW, the french study has been shown to have cerry picked tat data to
suport their hypothesis.
The wuhan data is also purely antedotal, and in the first place it
wasonly reported as helping with symptoms in mild cases and not as
preventative or a cure.

Reminds me of horehound; as an ammeliorate, the disease is often a better
choice.
The

[AMuzi]

I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't
anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately,
we'll know a lot more in a couple of years.

That said, for a guy who cannot breathe now, waiting a few
years for a more full understanding is a poor choice.

[John B.]

What you write is true. However the hydrochloroquine literature does
state that "an overdose may cause death".

But, of course, an over dose of many things will cause death :-(

>As always, a simple factual statement such as, "I just do
>not like the guy" would be much better than making things up.
--

cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:22:54 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>
> As always, a simple factual statement such as, "I just do
> not like the guy" would be much better than making things up.

There's also "I like the guy no matter what he does." That too makes
hard to have reasonable discussions or evaluations of performance. And
in a democracy, we have a duty to evaluate performance.

- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 08.04.2020 um 02:24 schrieb AMuzi:
>
> I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't anecdotes of harm
> and as I've written frequently lately, we'll know a lot more in a couple
> of years.

Yes, anecdotes of harm go round as well, of people who took the stuff
without medical supervision and killed themselves with it.

It is *always* a bad idea to propose some medicine to the public rather
than proposing medicine to doctors who prescribe it to sufferers.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@yahoo.com wrote:

>This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place but
>a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear
>to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does destroy
>this specific type of virus, hydroxychloroquine which is reported to
>completely stop the worst symptoms in 8 to 12 hours and transfusions
>from those who have gotten over the disease. This last bit is almost
>impossible to achieve since you have to have proof of them having
>antibodies against the disease but when you're only testing those
>who have symptoms, you already know that they do not have the antibodies.

1. Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat Malaria and Lupus, not HIV.
<https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-5482/hydroxychloroquine-oral/details>

2. You claims that:
...when you're only testing those who have symptoms, you already

know that they do not have the antibodies.

If that were true, then an overwhelming percentage of those tested
would show a positive result. That's not the case with typical
percentages running around 10% to 30% positive.
<https://covidtracking.com/data>
For example, for California, the current positive rate is:
15,865 / 131,229 = 12.1%
If ALL the pendiing 14,100 tests turned out to be positive, then the
percentage would be:
(15,865 + 14,100) / 131,229 = 22.8%
which is still much less than what I would expect from a test
population pre-selected for demonstrating symptoms.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

Uh, that was a murder. She poisoned her husband (once for
practice and recently fatal on the second adventure)

Prescription of hydrochloroqine implicated in death by heart
failure last occurred about 10 years ago despite some
300,000 maintenance prescriptions among Lupus sufferers.

https://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-treatment/lupus-medications/antimalarial-drugs/

Note condraindications are after sustained use for years.

[AMuzi]

As is so often the case, Tom conflated the reports from
India mostly but also China on positive effect of some HIV
antivirals such as lopinavir. This has, just like Lupus,
left some chronically ill people without their maintenance
prescriptions.

There's a lot in Tom's brain but it doesn't always escape in
readable form.

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, I'm sue that you can have any crazy idea you like. Doctors that have been interviewed on FOX and nurses as well are saying this same thing. But you believe them to be Trump apologists and not medical personnel with intelligence.

[Tom Kunich]

Hydroxychloroquine is not a "cure" it gives close to total symptom relief reportedly in 8 to 12 hours. Seems like a good idea to me.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell you what, by all means do not take this stuff because it is only anecdotal evidence of its efficaciousness.

[jbeattie]

Hydroxychloroquine may be safe and effective in COVID-19 patients, but we -- meaning us people on this NG -- don't know. The FDA, CDC, NIH have the research and adverse incident reports. Real scientific-like people will make the determination.

Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw shit out to make a media splash.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

I've gone over this stuff before. They have NO reports of this stuff used for malaria or lupus or extreme arthritis above very seldom allergic induced skin rash.

The typical dosage for Lupus is 10 mg/kg for life and the typical dosage for covid-19 is 7.8 mg/kg for two weeks at the most.

What I would like most of all is why people who do not require this stuff are those claiming it to be ineffective.

[Tom Kunich]

Around here they are ONLY testing people with a dry cough and high fevers. Their positive rates are nearly 100%. In other places such a the middle-of-nowhere Utah the positive rate would probably be close to zero.

Where ever they have a high testing rate they have a low number of positives. This does NOT mean that they have not been exposed to the virus. It means that their bodies immune systems reacted rapidly enough to destroy the virus before it could infect their bodies. This is the same thing with vaccinated flu people. Not having testing positive does NOT mean having been exposed. The Covid-19 is very similar to one of the rhino viruses that cause the common cold.

Without very widespread testing (also with a test that can test for people that HAD the symptomless infection and gotten over it) we are doing nothing but shooting at stars.

[sms]

On 4/8/2020 10:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:

> Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw shit out to make a media splash.

People have already died as a result of Trump touting these unproven
drugs. But of course the number that have died by taking these drugs is
much smaller than the number that have died due to federal government's
horribly botched response to Covid-19.

While I don't personally know any people clueless enough to believe
anything Trump says, there are apparently such people in the world,
including one on r.b.t.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 11:01:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Around here they are ONLY testing people with a dry cough and
>high fevers. Their positive rates are nearly 100%.

Where is around here?

There are numerous dashboards and web sites that track the test
numbers. For example, Santa Clara:
<https://www.sccgov.org/sites/phd/DiseaseInformation/novel-coronavirus/Pages/dashboard.aspx>
Santa Cruz:
<http://www.santacruzhealth.org/coronavirus/>
and the COVID Tracking Project:
<https://covidtracking.com>
<https://covidtracking.com/data/state/california>

Most states are showing very low positive test results. Please
retract your blanked statement unless you have some proof that it's
correct. Otherwise, you're contributing to the general misinformation
which seems to plague the pandemic.

>In other places such a the middle-of-nowhere Utah the positive
>rate would probably be close to zero.

Well, let's see:
<https://covidtracking.com/data/state/utah>
1,738 / 34,647 = 5% positive
Ok, you have one correct.

>Where ever they have a high testing rate they have a low number
>of positives.

Really? New York seems to be getting the bulk of the testing kits,
since that's where the biggest problems are located.

138,863 / 340,058 = 40.8% positive

Well, you can toss a coin to decide if that's a high or low number of
positives. With all the alleged pre-selection for those who exhibit
symptoms, I would expect NY to show much higher percentage positives.

>This does NOT mean that they have not been exposed to the virus. It
>means that their bodies immune systems reacted rapidly enough to
>destroy the virus before it could infect their bodies. This is
>the same thing with vaccinated flu people. Not having testing
>positive does NOT mean having been exposed. The Covid-19 is very
>similar to one of the rhino viruses that cause the common cold.

Amazing. There's enough truth in that paragraph to make it look
correct, but your conclusion (Not having testing positive does NOT
mean having been exposed) makes no sense.

>Without very widespread testing (also with a test that can test
>for people that HAD the symptomless infection and gotten over it)
>we are doing nothing but shooting at stars.

Other than social distancing and travel restrictions, testing is the
only weapon we have at this time. Antibody blood testing will show if
there has been a previous infection:
<https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/04/cdc-launches-studies-to-get-more-precise-count-of-undetected-covid-19-cases/>

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 08.04.2020 um 19:44 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> Hydroxychloroquine is not a "cure" it gives close to total symptom relief reportedly in 8 to 12 hours. Seems like a good idea to me.

Hydroxychloroquine is an immune supressant. It prevents your body from
fighting the virus, which might be a very bad idea or a good idea
depending on the exact situation. It is good if your body over-reacts
and destroys your lung while fighting the virus, and it's bad if have a
bacterial pneumonia on top.

[AMuzi]

'People have died ' is wrong- it was a murder. She poisoned
her husband (and had a prior attempt to boot).

Do people freak out and do stupid things after any news
report? Absolutely!! Remember the run on Ciproflaxacin
during/sfter the anthrax attacks? People are crazy at best
on a good day(see TP) which doesn't mean that a reasonable
person will self-medicate based on a side comment by DJT or
anyone else.

in re crazy- in 1969 I actually tried morning glory seeds
based on a popular rumor at the time. Like most such things
including hydrochloroquine there is a shadow of truth to it.

[AMuzi]

Thank you!

Makes sense then that it's used with Azithromycin for
opportunistic bacterial infection.

[Sepp Ruf]

sms wrote:
> On 4/8/2020 10:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
>> Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing
>> themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet,
>> (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4)
>> distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw shit out to
>> make a media splash.

Proven therapies for the Boris flu? Tell us more, Doc Beattie!

Still using Zoom for legal business or already sueing them, Jay?
https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/lets-make-simple-zoom-malware

Any news from Zev Zelenko's patients? Maybe Sweden should try foul fish to
scare ANY virus away.
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8199477/Swedish-hospitals-stop-prescribing-chloroquine-coronavirus-patients-adverse-effects.html>

ON-Topic!
Decathlon Sports first BRO shop to reach strategic "essential" status:
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8165461/Italian-medics-convert-snorkelling-masks-homemade-ventilators-coronavirus-crisis.html>

> People have already died as a result of Trump touting these unproven
> drugs. But of course the number that have died by taking these drugs is
> much smaller than the number that have died due to federal government's
> horribly botched response to Covid-19.
>
> While I don't personally know any people clueless enough to believe
> anything Trump says, there are apparently such people in the world,
> including one on r.b.t.

I am so glad nobody has died as a result of a wall-joke cracking major (who
is proud of his China connections) wasting his time on non-essential Trump
criticism on rbt when the hospitals and care facilites in his town have been
asking for donations of protective supplies. Apparently, he knows something
about the Bill & Melinda Gates flu other people on rbt do not.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:19:45 PM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> sms wrote:
> > On 4/8/2020 10:51 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >
> >> Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing
> >> themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet,
> >> (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4)
> >> distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw shit out to
> >> make a media splash.
>
> Proven therapies for the Boris flu? Tell us more, Doc Beattie!

Perhaps not the best choice of words. I was thinking of social-distancing, PPE, etc. Once people learn of a miracle cure -- like penicillin -- they're more likely to engage in risk-taking behavior, some quite fun. This is why we should ban helmets.

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Engage in risk taking behavior? Against the current
guidelines? Who would ever do such a thing?

https://nypost.com/2020/04/06/couple-spotted-having-sex-in-london-park-amid-coronavirus-lockdown/

[Tom Kunich]

What you mean is that YOU don't know and are intent on remaining that way. If I hadn't actually looked it up how do you think that I would know the actual recommended dosages for Malaria, Lupus and covid-19.

Oh, that's right, I'm bullshitting you because you say so.

[Tom Kunich]

Another line of bullshit. Who died because of Trump? Let's get some actual references and not your communist's propaganda. Let's see what your life is like after November.

[Tom Kunich]

Alameda County. And I can see that there's no use in carrying this on any further since you cannot interpret a negative sentence with a positive verb being incorrectly entered.

Twiddle off and play your games with John and Jay. You're worthy of them.

[Tom Kunich]

It is more of an anti-inflammatory. This is how it works on Lupus and severe arthritis. As an anti-malarial drug it poisons the Malaria parasite.

In severe cases of covid-19 you can get Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) which is caused by your immune system going out of control and causing massive inflammation of your lungs and airways. Hydroxychloroquine reduces this inflammation and the added antibiotic is there just to lower the chances of contracting bacterial pneumonia.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

<cycl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 11:26:47 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 11:01:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Around here they are ONLY testing people with a dry cough and
>> >high fevers. Their positive rates are nearly 100%.
>>
>> Where is around here?

>Alameda County.

Great. Too bad Alameda County doesn't have a web page or dashboard
with testing results. The best I could find is:
<http://www.acphd.org/2019-ncov.aspx>
which excludes cases for Berkeley. Where did you find the nearly 100%
positive rate for "around here"?

>And I can see that there's no use in carrying this on any further
>since you cannot interpret a negative sentence with a positive verb
>being incorrectly entered.

I presume you mean:

"Not having testing positive does NOT mean having been exposed".

I'll admit that I was a rather confused by this sentence. I thought I
had decoded it correctly, but apparently not. Could I trouble you to
untangle the sentence into something intelligible?

>Twiddle off and play your games with John and Jay. You're worthy of them.

This must be your way of avoiding a retraction your "nearly 100%"
positive test rate claim for Alameda County. You shoved your foot
down your own mouth, so now you suffer the indignity of admitting that
you were wrong. I normally don't enjoy such things, but since you
seem pathologically unable to engage in ANY discussion that does not
involve you insulting, demeaning, or otherwise abusing anyone you find
disagreeable, I will relish the moment for however long it lasts. Now,
either produce proof of your claim that Alameda County test scores are
nearly 100% or deliver a suitable retraction.

[John B.]

Actually that would be allowed, I think, if they maintained the 2
meter "social distancing" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
wrote:

Well, we do know, if we care to look at the literature on
hydroxychloroquine, that it includes the statement:
"Call a poison control center at once and then seek emergency medical
attention if you think you have used too much of this medicine. An
overdose of hydroxychloroquine can be fatal"
--
cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Not because I say so, because you demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding of most things -- from simple Di2 installation to economics to medicine. You are a reliable source of unreliable information. You read a couple of internet articles and think you know virtually everything about everything.

I'm willing to admit that there are real-live medical professionals that actually know stuff about virology and cellular metabolism and the actual mechanism of action for Hydroxychloroquine. Read this and then send us an explanation of why it works to prevent the replication of certain viruses: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8278823 This should be well within your high school science education.

-- Jay Beattie.

[John B.]

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>

But Tommy told us that he didn't finish high school :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 4/8/2020 9:46 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 6:53:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/8/2020 2:15 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>> Am 08.04.2020 um 02:24 schrieb AMuzi:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you. These are anecdotes but there aren't
>>>>> anecdotes of harm and as I've written frequently lately,
>>>>> we'll know a lot more in a couple of years.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, anecdotes of harm go round as well, of people who took
>>>> the stuff without medical supervision and killed themselves
>>>> with it.
>>>>
>>>> It is *always* a bad idea to propose some medicine to the
>>>> public rather than proposing medicine to doctors who
>>>> prescribe it to sufferers.
>>>
>>> Uh, that was a murder. She poisoned her husband (once for
>>> practice and recently fatal on the second adventure)
>>>
>>> Prescription of hydrochloroqine implicated in death by heart
>>> failure last occurred about 10 years ago despite some
>>> 300,000 maintenance prescriptions among Lupus sufferers.
>>>
>>> https://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-treatment/lupus-medications/antimalarial-drugs/
>>>
>>> Note condraindications are after sustained use for years.

>> Hydroxychloroquine may be safe and effective in COVID-19 patients, but we -- meaning us people on this NG -- don't know. The FDA, CDC, NIH have the research and adverse incident reports. Real scientific-like people will make the determination.
>>
>> Presidents touting an untried drug leads to: (1) people killing themselves with fish medicine or knock-off drugs sold on the internet, (2) hoarding, (3) inflated expectations of miracle cures, and (4) distraction from proven therapies. You don't just throw shit out to make a media splash.

> Well, we do know, if we care to look at the literature on
> hydroxychloroquine, that it includes the statement:
> "Call a poison control center at once and then seek emergency medical
> attention if you think you have used too much of this medicine. An
> overdose of hydroxychloroquine can be fatal"

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/7/michigan-democrat-thanks-trump-hydroxychloroquine-/

[jbeattie]

Hmmm. Did Trump write the prescription? These stories -- on both sides (e.g. fish medicine death) -- are stupid. She should credit her doctor, if anyone. I credit Oregon Pinot Noir for my rapid recovery from a near-death pulmonary embolism -- that and heparin. In days of yore, presidents were not trying to take credit for prescribing cures. They ran the country and medical experts worked behind the scenes on therapies. Trump is such an attention junkie that all these formerly mundane medical questions and investigations have to be his inventions and discoveries. Thank you Dear Leader for curing my blindness!

My father was a pharmacist and I grew up working in a drug store. I discovered penicillin . . . on the shelf, along with a bunch of other drugs. I should be president! And more to the point, my grandfather discovered the largest stands of cinchona (source of quinine) during WW II. He was a quinine hero! https://naturalhistory.si.edu/research/botany/about/historical-expeditions/cinchona-missions BTW, his greatest stories from that adventure were about having a 30 foot tapeworm. More reason I should be president.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

What I can say about you is that you are a reliable source for providing information that you have no understanding of but which you believe contradicts me.

All that source said is that IF that is an anti-inflammatory it operates more slowly the glucosteroids or non-steroidal anti-inflamatories. You continually miss things such as

"It is proposed that the antirheumatic properties of these compounds results from their interference with "antigen processing" in macrophages and other antigen-presenting cells."

This means that none of their personal beliefs have been tested or that the tests that oppose their opinions haven't been substantiates with further studies.

Lupus and Arthritis are diseases that are caused by inflammation due to the immune system responses. So, hydroxychloroquine either reduces inflation (which it absolutely does in the cases of covid-19 causes ARDS or it has another pathway that accomplishes the same thing.

There is nothing that you won't argue about simply because you don't like me and will, like News18 - some stupid foreigner arguing about Trump's worth - say absolutely anything in an attempt to discredit me. You have never worked in these areas and I have. You have never been a scientist for one day of your life and I have spend 50 years in the field. Unlike Frank who simply tries to discredit my experience by saying that he doesn't believe it as if I could care what he thinks, you want to suggest I don't know what I'm talking about by putting put absolute idiocy that you can't even understand.

I will say it again, it is pretty plain why you never made Partner in the firm. Your legal mind has a lot of gaps.

[jbeattie]

Hmmm. I've been getting a K-1 for 27 years. Must be a mistake. And you're wrong about the mechanism of Chloroquine as a treatment for coronavirus. Read this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7102587/

According to your CV, you were a tech and not a "scientist." No college and relatively brief employments at a collection of employers. I see nothing indicating any education in cellular biology. Am I missing something?

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

According to you then Thomas Edison, the Wright Brothers and Henry Ford were not scientists. Just people who happen to work as mechanics.

My education was entirely self induced and no less than those of a PhD or five whom I was forced to correct on many occasions. You are entirely unaware of the weaknesses of a professional education without the actual practical knowledge that actually working in the field brings.

They have showed the testing procedures and the machines they are using to test for covid-19 on the media many times now. At first I suspected that these were nothing more than stock photos from company advertisements. But in several they showed the proper sample bottles which are not normally used in these settings. The machine being used was developed by someone other than me and the very method they use for testing spreads any viruses about. This is what you get when you use college educated people to do these sorts of things.

On the poison gas detectors for the military I accepted the formulas they gave me for the reactions of the devices used for the actual detection. I could not get these things to work properly. Finally I decided that these PhD's didn't know what they were doing and worked out all of the details myself and discovered that these people didn't know what in the hell they were doing. I used my own formulas, tested them in the actual gas chambers where precise gas levels were known and then my programs worked perfectly.

As for your K-1. We both know the tax advantages for your firm by issuing you a K-1 rather than describing you as an employed lawyer. I can't tell if you actually think yourself an actual partner yourself since several times you've used the term - "The Partners" and not "My partners". My comments are not negative to your working for a living but that you would pretty obviously not be holding up your end of the bridge if you have not become an actual partner. I have had enough interactions with law firms to know the difference between an owner and those working for them. I have also directly witnessed those who cannot lend to the growth or at least maintenance of companies being asked to leave. Being a competent or even very competent lawyer is not the same thing as being able to attract clients who can pay.

[sms]

On 4/9/2020 10:05 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 8:25:00 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

>> https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/7/michigan-democrat-thanks-trump-hydroxychloroquine-/
>
> Hmmm. Did Trump write the prescription? These stories -- on both sides (e.g. fish medicine death) -- are stupid. She should credit her doctor, if anyone. I credit Oregon Pinot Noir for my rapid recovery from a near-death pulmonary embolism -- that and heparin. In days of yore, presidents were not trying to take credit for prescribing cures. They ran the country and medical experts worked behind the scenes on therapies. Trump is such an attention junkie that all these formerly mundane medical questions and investigations have to be his inventions and discoveries. Thank you Dear Leader for curing my blindness!
>
> My father was a pharmacist and I grew up working in a drug store. I discovered penicillin . . . on the shelf, along with a bunch of other drugs. I should be president! And more to the point, my grandfather discovered the largest stands of cinchona (source of quinine) during WW II. He was a quinine hero! https://naturalhistory.si.edu/research/botany/about/historical-expeditions/cinchona-missions BTW, his greatest stories from that adventure were about having a 30 foot tapeworm. More reason I should be president.

You do realize that the Washington Times is an alt-right publication
don't you?

[AMuzi]

meh, look it up yourself.
That's first link in a search. I saw her on the radio
yesterday (she was quite effusive)

[Frank Krygowski]

So much self-reported brilliance!

Any luck with the job search?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Who has offered to employ you? with your overwhelming far left stance the least we would expect is that Berny Sanders would love you on his campaign staff. Oh, wait, would HAVE loved you on his campaign staff. Without you and just on the strength of sharing a political identity no one was going to vote for him. I guess you'll just have to vote against Trump whoever runs.

I have had several dozen offers. They are two large aerospace companies (several times) in San Diego, Two companies in Nevada and the rest in Texas and Arizona. Since I have no intentions of moving none of those are adequate to my needs.

Just two blocks from me they are erecting and entire city block building. Since it does not have a real truck dock it isn't going to be used for rerouting shipped goods. Though it might be a garbage recycling center it is probably far too large for that.

It is probably financed by the Chinese government since all of the other large and extremely large buildings in this area have been so constructed. On one location they tore down FOUR relatively new buildings and put one city block sized building on it. Presently it has two small companies near the front door.

I'm sure you could get a job advancing the CCP there. They might even allow you to work from home - or is that your present job and vehicle?

[Frank Krygowski]

I turned down work, Tom. The university wanted me to stay on. The
department members wanted my continued advice. I said "Sorry, I'm going
to be the retired guy."

Unlike you, I'm very content with my life and am far from hurting for
money. Hey, I buy groceries with no complaints!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Now its a university is it. What became of the high school you spoke of originally?

[Frank Krygowski]

Wow.

Just... wow.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Ralph Barone]

I don’t recall Frank ever claiming to have been a high school teacher.
Maybe your recall is faulty.

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom REALLY needs to stop trusting his memory!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim McNamara]

On Tue, 07 Apr 2020 17:22:44 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 4/7/2020 3:33 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT), cycl...@yahoo.com
>> <cycl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> This means that the answer to the problem is not shelter in place
>>> but
>>
>> "Answer" to the problem? Unless you are a prepper prepared to wait
>> out the fall of civilization in your bunker, no. "Shelter in place,"
>> "social distancing," etc., are management strategies not solutions.
>>
>>> a medication that can ameliorate the worst symptoms and they appear
>>> to have three of them right now. The HIV medication which does
>>> destroy this specific type of virus,
>>
>> Not yet proven. Would be great if it pans out, we know how to make
>> those by the millions of doses.
>>
>>> hydroxychloroquine which is reported to completely stop the worst
>>> symptoms in 8 to 12 hours
>>
>> Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
>> medical professionals yet (unless something has come out in the last
>> hour). Chloroquine and its derivatives are not safe medications- for
>> example, they can cause your heart to malfunction and stop. Any
>> powerful medication is by definition not safe. And also it would be
>> great if this pans out- something to ameliorate symptoms of COVID-19
>> would be tremendously helpful.
>>
>>> and transfusions from those who have gotten over the disease. This
>>> last bit is almost impossible to achieve since you have to have
>>> proof of them having antibodies against the disease but when you're
>>> only testing those who have symptoms, you already know that they do
>>> not have the antibodies.
>>
>> Which is why Mayo Clinic is putting its antibody test into action
>> shortly and the University of Minnesota has also developed one. Then
>> he can identify people who may have developed immunity which can be
>> hopefully conferred to others. Again, what a boon that would be!
>> This is on the assumption that getting over the infection results in
>> antibodies and immunities.
>>
>>> Until the point that they can achieve widespread testing of the
>>> population as a whole you cannot tell the mortality rates nor use
>>> the transfusions except in the case of those who have been tested
>>> and showed they were over it. And because of the laxity they are
>>> showing with the testing, this number is tiny and this means of
>>> treatment is limited.
>>
>> The "laxity" with the testing in the US is the fault of Trump and Co.
>> There was an established test from WHO put to good use in other
>> countries with good results (e.g., South Korea) but the Trump
>> administration refused it... costing thousands of American lives.
>>
>> Oh, but that's right, you think he's a wonderful president. Please
>> continue to disregard reality.
>
>
>> "Well, reported by Trump and his proxies, not reported by reputable
>> medical professionals yet"
>
> That was demographically posited weeks before the President mentioned
> it because Lupus sufferers, who are prescribed hydrochloroquine, were
> underrepresented in Wuhan virus positives. After noticing that
> anomaly, a French doctor tried a small set with positive indications,
> followed by others in other countries.

The French guy did a poorly done study that fudged its data (e.g.,
removing adverse results which is the definition of bad science).

> I pointedly did not say 'proven' or 'effective' or 'cured' because so
> far no one has run a 'half get treated, half die' test. But as was
> clearly stated, 'may be helpful'.

"May be helpful" in the way that gargling a little kerosene mixed in
water (a folk remedy for sore throats apparently promulgated by an older
generation of my family) might be helpful- the way in which there is no
demonstrated proof, only wishful thinking. Better studies are being put
into action and fingers crossed there is some benefit.

> Even I am surprised at how vicious the criticism of that statement has
> been, claiming the protocol will needlessly kill people, DJT is no
> doctor and so on.

DJT *is* no doctor. He's a glorified landlord with delusions of
omniscience. Just slapping people on the drug willy-nilly, as he has
proposed, would harm and HAS ALREADY killed people needlessly. That
fatuous moron has the deaths of thousands on his hands in this pandemic
already, maybe a few more don't matter?

I'm always amazed by how little the right wing values human lives.
Money is what counts, people are acceptable losses. Maybe they think it
just weeds out the useless eaters.

> So I called an acquaintance who lives with Lupus. She reports no
> problems after some 20 years of using hydrochloroquine. In fact, one
> reason it's suddenly available in great quantities is that it's
> neither new nor rare.

It's not new or rare... unless you have lupus or something else treated
with it, and now you can't get it because it's being diverted to treat
something there is as yet no proof it treats...

> As always, a simple factual statement such as, "I just do not like the
> guy" would be much better than making things up.

"The guy" is a menace to the world, Andrew. He severely fucked up in
response to the pandemic and is now desperately trying to cast blame on
everyone else he can think of, just making up lies like he always does.
That you and others are willing to countenance him is deeply troubling.
Whether I like him or not is irrelevant to his abysmal performance as
President since day one. But the Republican 80% who think he's
wonderful have decided to keep drinking the Koolaid. Chug! Chug!
Chug!

[AMuzi]

I ask you, please, make an honest statement. You do not like
the man. Which is fine, you're welcome to your opinion and
at least one person here (me) will not call you names for
that. I don't much like him myself, but he's done a very
good job.

Quickly name another head of state who banned travel from
China in January while the Chinese were busy arresting
doctors who went against the 'nothing to see here' Party
line. Banned travel from China as Fauci was telling USAians
'not to worry' (cited here yesterday). You cannot.

You dislike him, OK, but there's no need to invent things he
has plenty of sins of his own as anyone who hears me scream
at the radio will attest.

in re costs-
Are you out of work yourself? Do you have to care for minor
children while the union teachers get full pay for even less
than their usual lousy performance? Are you late on April's
rent? If not, you can shut up about costs any time. I can't
name any historical precedent for ruining a culture so fast
and so decisively in a suicidal (new term civiticidal?
sociocidal?) fit. There's real pain out there and I see it
up close every day. Governors who ordered shutdowns ought to
be shot in the street. (I'm looking at you, Mike DeWine, as
I never expected anything sensible from the local party hack.)

[John B.]

Maybe?
--
cheers,

John B.

[news18]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 19:30:52 -0500, AMuzi wrote:


> I ask you, please, make an honest statement. You do not like the man.

Basically, I've never expected pealrs of wisdom ffrom his lips.

> Which is fine, you're welcome to your opinion and at least one person
> here (me) will not call you names for that. I don't much like him
> myself, but he's done a very good job.
>
> Quickly name another head of state who banned travel from China in
> January

Bummer, Slomo did it for Feb 1st, but then he isn't called "too little-
too late" for nothing

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-02/coronavirus-china-slams-us-ban-as-
who-warns-local-outbreaks/11921416

[Tom Kunich]

Do you mind telling us why you're passing off pure unadulterated bullshit?

https://techstartups.com/2020/03/20/coronavirus-treatment-breakthrough-french-study-confirms-that-a-combination-of-hydroxychloroquine-hcq-and-azithromycin-are-effective-in-treating-covid-19-patients/

[Tom Kunich]

You are a foreigner in a foreign land. Perhaps you can tell us what business it is of yours what leader we elect if he isn't making war on you?

[AMuzi]

I read a compilation of recent abstracts last evening which
seem to indicate that some people, not distinguished by age,
obesity, prior heart/lung/circulatory impairment etc react
dramatically to this infection with a massive cytokine
cascade. That inflammation rapidly impairs breathing, allows
teh virus to replicate faster and can be a deathly downward
spiral. For those people the hydrocholorquine can reduce
inflammation while teh Azithromycin acts against
opportunistic bacterial infection (a commonly fatal
complication of influenza) where present.

The various HIV therapies in testing are antivirals and some
seem more effective than others for this particular virus.
Sadly, the people in the group above are at serious risk of
death in short order before these antivirals can be effective.

So, both approaches seem valid for different groups for
different reasons. As always, we'll know more in a couple
of years; these are early reports.

[jbeattie]

Yes, and there was similar literature for SARS and MERS. As for the action of Chloroquine, see https://aac.asm.org/content/aac/53/8/3416.full.pdf I think the recent investigations are looking more at its anti-viral effect than its anti-inflammatory effect, which looks like it has been studied a lot already in connection with various inflammatory diseases.

> The various HIV therapies in testing are antivirals and some
> seem more effective than others for this particular virus.
> Sadly, the people in the group above are at serious risk of
> death in short order before these antivirals can be effective.
>
> So, both approaches seem valid for different groups for
> different reasons. As always, we'll know more in a couple
> of years; these are early reports.
>

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763982
And there is the antibody work being done, too.

There are actual real scientists out there doing this work 24/7, many of them for NIH, CDC, state governments and liberal scum Universities across the nation. And then the great titans of industry, on whose shoulders we rest, are also looking for answers -- and patents (and often relying on the liberal scum universities). https://www.drugtargetreview.com/article/59754/covid-19-and-big-pharma-what-are-15-leading-companies-doing-to-develop-a-coronavirus-vaccine/ The scientific swamp seems to be doing just fine. It's the governments that are flailing.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

At what point in time are you going to cease and desist in telling us that your references make you some sort of expert?

In case you are unaware of it the pharmaceutical companies without the scum liberal universities came up with a number of different vaccines within weeks. FDA long term testing keeps these from being released. The FDA testing processes are totally responsible and cannot be rushed. And it is 22 different pharmaceutical companies and not 15. Tell us again about Big Pharma like any 12 year old with a moronic teacher like Frank.

[jbeattie]

But Tom, like you, I am a genius and am an expert in immunology, virology, cellular biology, medicine and Googling. Unlike you, though, I have access to LEXIS and a vast medical journal data base. I can plug in search terms and bring up all the recent literature, most of which is wrong according to the voices in my head, but those so-called PhDs wrote them and think they know everything. I tell PhDs what to do every day, and write them letters and leave phone messages.

>
> In case you are unaware of it the pharmaceutical companies without the scum liberal universities came up with a number of different vaccines within weeks. FDA long term testing keeps these from being released. The FDA testing processes are totally responsible and cannot be rushed. And it is 22 different pharmaceutical companies and not 15. Tell us again about Big Pharma like any 12 year old with a moronic teacher like Frank.

I actually know quite a bit about Big Pharma and the FDA approval process being that I represent Big Pharma and device manufacturers. My father also worked for them (Parke-Davis and Eli Lilly), and my uncle was CEO/chairman of Pfizer -- he bought both Viagra and Rogaine to the market, your two maintenance drugs. And Mr. Brainiac, a casual Google search shows the first trials are of a vaccine developed by the slacker swamp NIAID and manufactured by a private company -- the usual public private collaboration. But I'm sure you knew all that. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-clinical-trial-investigational-vaccine-covid-19-begins

Let's get together and call ourselves an institute!

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/10/2020 8:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I ask you, please, make an honest statement. You do not like the man.
> Which is fine, you're welcome to your opinion and at least one person
> here (me) will not call you names for that.  I don't much like him
> myself, but he's done a very good job.

Andrew, I'd like proof you're not in a mirror image position. Despite
you allusions to the contrary, I don't see you saying but positive
remarks about Trump. For example, "done a very good job" regarding the
virus? That's ludicrous.

For the longest time, every relevant move and statement was, as usual,
off the top of his head with no reference to the scientific knowledge of
the time. If he guessed right about banning China travel, it was because
of the way his Pick Up Sticks fell that morning. In general, his
management performance since his election has been a shit show. His
administration churns staff faster than his television show churned cast
members. Its generated a modern record for convictions, even though he's
squeaked out of conviction himself only because the party he's
commandeered has lost all moral courage.

Yes, there is a LOT to "not like" about Trump.
https://bergensia.com/someone-asked-why-do-some-british-people-not-like-donald-trump/
By contrast, Hillary Clinton was as sweet as a kindergarten teacher -
but the right wing complained endlessly that she was not likeable.
("Gawd, she wears pants suits!") As usual, what's terrible in the
opposition is negligible (or even a virtue) in one's own party.

> Governors who ordered shutdowns ought to be shot in the
> street. (I'm looking at you, Mike DeWine, as I never expected anything
> sensible from the local party hack.)

1) "Shot in the street"? Andrew, that's over the top. Control your rhetoric.

2) Ohio's COVID cases are _way_ lower than comparable states.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/did-ohio-get-it-right-early-intervention-preparation-for-pandemic-may-pay-off/2020/04/09/7570bfea-7a4f-11ea-9bee-c5bf9d2e3288_story.html

If all you care about is economic activity, you may not like that. But
economic activity can be trashed by widespread illness too. How's Italy
doing lately?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Then you should have the least problem telling us what "Big Parma" is. I'll wait for you to get your thoughts together. Do you suppose that will happen within my lifetime?

[news18]

On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 08:35:30 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Friday, April 10, 2020 at 7:17:47 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 19:30:52 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> > I ask you, please, make an honest statement. You do not like the man.
>>
>> Basically, I've never expected pealrs of wisdom ffrom his lips.
>>
>>
>> > Which is fine, you're welcome to your opinion and at least one person
>> > here (me) will not call you names for that. I don't much like him
>> > myself, but he's done a very good job.
>> >
>> > Quickly name another head of state who banned travel from China in
>> > January
>>
>> Bummer, Slomo did it for Feb 1st, but then he isn't called "too little-
>> too late" for nothing
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-02/coronavirus-china-slams-us-ban-
as-
>> who-warns-local-outbreaks/11921416
>
> You are a foreigner in a foreign land.

Oooh, first alien contact.

> Perhaps you can tell us what
> business it is of yours what leader we elect if he isn't making war on
> you?

Wow, those aliens are one lot of DFs.

[jbeattie]

"Big Parma" is a giant Italian multi-national that tried to corner the prosciutto market in 1988. It ended in disaster due to a crash of the prosciutto futures market. It's documented here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLySXTIBS3c

Are you still alive? If so, there you go.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Tom Kunich]

I fully expected you to change the subject and surely enough you did.

[Tom Kunich]

And I fully expected you to be unable to back up your big mouth with anything but stalling.

[jbeattie]

Well, being that your incapable of looking something up in a dictionary, here you go: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Big%20Pharma

It's a defined term. Is there some secret knowledge about Big Pharma you're going to lay on us? Like the Mesopotamians invented Big Pharma in 10,000 BC. I'm waiting for the full-on Cliff Clavin.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

[Raising hand] I know! Parma is a suburb of Cleveland!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Oh, is the one in Italy still there? Maybe _that's_ "Big Parma."


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

If you represented "Big Pharma" you'd know that that term is nothing more than a 12 year old little boy's idea that somehow the pharmaceutical companies are a single political influence. But how is it that you don't know that is a totally false impression if you represent them?

[John B.]

A delusion is a false belief that is not subject to reason or
contradictory evidence which may be firmly maintained in the face of
incontrovertible evidence that it is false. Delusions are common
psychotic disorders and can also be a feature of brain damage or
disorders.Examples of delusions include the sufferer believing that
one has an unusual power or talent.
--
cheers,

John B.