Learning how to ride competently

[Frank Krygowski]

https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
>

Not convinced it makes much difference, it’s up with painted bike lanes,
shows willing or more likely box ticking efforts but doesn’t seem to do
much.

While more expensive at least up front decent segregated infrastructure
does seem to change folks habits be that more cyclists or more varied
types.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

How much difference it makes depends on what someone is trying to
achieve. Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.

Because what was the alternative? Wait for "protective bike lanes"
everywhere? Even simple bike lane stripes are not yet on more than a
microscopic portion of the streets and roads I ride. If I'd waited for
those things, I'd still be confined to my driveway.

If instead people are trying to achieve big changes in society, I don't
see that fancy bike infrastructure is working. After years of inflated
estimates of 6+% bike mode share, Portland Oregon is dealing with a huge
drop in bike mode share. And as a guy who visited Portland frequently, I
know there was no time that 6% of the vehicles in motion were bicycles.
Other American cities typically have bike mode shares down around 1%,
even if they have miles and miles of (empty) bike lanes.

Americans are not going to use bikes instead of cars except for very
unusual places - places where motoring is somehow restricted or
impractical. No amount of expensive, weird and often incompetently
designed bike facilities will make Americans give up cars. Worse, those
who constantly say "We NEED separate facilities because roads are too
DANGEROUS!" are telling most people that they should never ride a bike
because of that danger. It's counterproductive.

Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net>:

>https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356

Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
represents the opposite of what was well known then:

"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."

(John Forester, quoted from <67...@cup.portal.com>,
rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)

I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
practicing that, if necessary.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>

I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
my own, already.

Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.

However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
of Drivers Ed".

Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
which should be rejected.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 19:21:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

There will be some people sign up thinking it'd a good opportunity to
get together with other bicyclists to socialize and jibber-jabber..

[Lou Holtman]

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:59:22 AM UTC+2, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.

We propagate nothing. We don't care how other countries organize their cycling infrastructure. We also like Bavarian empty rolling hills but we don't have them here.

Lou

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Thu, 19 Oct 2023 01:33:51 -0700 (PDT) schrieb Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com>:

<https://the-low-countries.com/article/the-cycle-roundabout-in-eindhoven-a-dutch-masterpiece-of-design>

<https://www.youtube.com/@ipvDelft/about>

Well, I don't really care about how that masterpiece of segregation
propaganda found its way to the European Cyclists Federation (note the
(C) European Cyclists Federation on the left). But the producer of that
marketing artefact certainly is located in the Netherlands.

<https://www.youtube.com/@ipvDelft/about>

<https://www.youtube.com/@ipvDelft/about>

Took me about two minutes to find that. And what about that one
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CROW_Design_Manual_for_Bicycle_Traffic>

| CROW Design Manual for Bicycle Traffic is a publication on
| bicycle transportation planning and engineering in the
| Netherlands. It is published by CROW, a non-profit agency
| advising Directorate-General for Public Works and Water
| Management formerly Ministry of Transport and Water
| Management (Netherlands). It is the most influential bicycle
| traffic planning manual, both worldwide[1] and on cycling in
| the Netherlands. It was last updated in 2016.[2] It is
| considered best practice.


An so on. Of course it needs two parties to sell such stuff, people
who produce it and people who consume and spread it. Surely I mostly
blame people in my country falling into that trap.

These monster roundabouts may perhaps appeal in tiny, flat coastal
countries as car centric as the Netherlands. I shudder at how much
concrete, asphalt and space is wasted trying to keep cyclists out of the
way of drivers, though. Even more so, when people build something like
that in hilly terrain or in a narrow valley. Or talk about that in an
old, grown city - you would have to tear down another quarter of my
neighborhood if you wanted to replace the a few existing intersections
with something like that.

In less densely populated areas, I prefer roundabouts like that one

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/roundabout.gif>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/gimmersdorfkreisel.jpg>
or with more context:
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/roundaboutquickandsafe_e960.mp4>
(11.4 MB)

[AMuzi]

+1
That parallels my experience as well.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree that LAB has become a bad influence. I and others I know dropped
our LAB teaching certifications because of their shift to promotion of
cyclist segregation and related issues. The last straw for me was an
unsigned white paper sent to LAB instructors claiming that door zone
bike lanes were just fine. (BTW, that received fierce pushback from many
if not most instructors.)

That said, I don't know the fine points of the current LAB curriculum.
It may be OK, as long as it treats segregated facilities as places for
extra caution, not places to doze off in perfect "safety."

The Cycling Savvy program is, IMO, the best cycling education program
going now in North America. It's quite compatible with John Franklin's
_Cyclecraft_. A lot of its content can be accessed from their website:
https://abea.bike/

Having said all that, even if the LAB program has shortcomings, I
suspect that the vast majority of American cyclists would be safer and
happier in their riding if they completed even that course. Most people
have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know"
that's absolutely wrong.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/19/2023 2:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/19/2023 2:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

[Frank Krygowski]

I agree that LAB has become a bad influence. I and others I know dropped our LAB teaching certifications because of their shift to promotion of cyclist segregation and related issues. The last straw for me was an unsigned white paper sent to LAB instructors claiming that door zone bike lanes were just fine. (BTW, that received fierce pushback from many if not most instructors.)

That said, I don't know the fine points of the current LAB curriculum. It may be OK, as long as it treats segregated facilities as places for extra caution, not places to doze off in perfect "safety."

The Cycling Savvy program is, IMO, the best cycling education program going now in North America. It's quite compatible with John Franklin's _Cyclecraft_. A lot of its content can be accessed from their website:
https://abea.bike/

Having said all that, even if the LAB program has shortcomings, I suspect that the vast majority of American cyclists would be safer and happier in their riding if they completed even that course. Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 10/19/2023 1:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> We propagate nothing. We don't care how other countries organize their cycling infrastructure. We also like Bavarian empty rolling hills but we don't have them here.
>
> Lou

Things have changed in the U.S. too. Yesterday I was at a traffic light
on a very busy eight lane road adjacent to Apple's Infinite Loop campus.
All of a sudden there is a swarm of middle-schoolers crossing the street
on their bicycles. Without the cycling infrastructure that prevents
vehicle drivers from committing illegal acts those children would likely
be being driven to school. It's nice to theorize that the police will be
there to enforce all the traffic laws, but that's a naive belief, you
need to implement traffic calming; route is here
<https://i.imgur.com/1Pp7z3S.jpeg>.

When the middle school first opened they didn't expect more than a few
cyclists would be coming in from that direction and had no bicycle
parking facility on that side of the school. When they were overwhelmed
with cyclists they quickly constructed a second secure parking area. The
first principal of that school transferred from a nearby elementary
school where there were essentially zero students riding their bicycles
to school, and the school had legendary traffic congestion, so she
probably based her expectations of cycling students on that experience.

What we've found in my town is that cycling infrastructure, especially
protected bicycle lanes, slows down vehicle traffic (even though the
road is not any narrower they can no longer use the bicycle lane to pass
on the right, nor can they leisurely drift to the right). The bicycling
infrastructure has increased cycling to specific places, especially by
young people, including the library and schools. The biggest change is
that the protected bicycle lanes prevent vehicles from illegally parking
or stopping in the bike lane (or on the shoulder in places where there
was no painted bike lane previously). And yes, there are some drivers
who are very annoyed that they now have to drive more precisely
including some that complained that they drifted over to the protected
bike lane and their tires were damaged by the divider.

Forester was never an advocate of increasing cycling numbers, probably
because he didn't want a bunch of young inexperienced cyclists impeding
him. "Effective Cycling" is essentially an opinion piece that promoted
Forester's ideology. There are so many errors of fact in that tome that
when I first read it, a pre-publication loose-leaf copy, it made my head
spin.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Lou Holtman]

If I could dictate how the cycling infrastructure would be organized the big roundabouts Herr Strobl was referring to would look different but that would be selfish.

Lou

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.

Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't going to help
much.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2023 10:50 AM, sms wrote:
> On 10/19/2023 1:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Forester was never an advocate of increasing cycling numbers, probably
> because he didn't want a bunch of young inexperienced cyclists impeding
> him.

Forester did not have the objective of increasing cycling numbers. His
interest was in making cycling better for those who chose to ride. As he
described it, he didn't invent the techniques he taught. Instead, he
made available to Americans what had long been known in other countries,
particularly Britain where he was born and learned to ride.

But he did a brilliant job of analyzing the principles of traffic law
and explaining how those principles applied to bicyclists, as well as
other road users. The logic he uncovered is the foundation of all
legitimate cycling instruction to this day.

Along the way, he did point out the lack of logic in the design of many
bike facilities. Here's a prime example: Yesterday I drove on a local
street with brand new bike lane stripes. At a major intersection, the
bike lane is against the curb. The normal traffic lane at its left has a
double arrow for "Straight or Right Turn." In what other situation is a
straight ahead lane (like this bike lane) placed to the right of a lane
from which a vehicle may turn right?

To those with any sense, that's an obvious recipe for a right hook.
Those who have learned to bike competently will recognize it. But many
people will not, and will think "I'm in a bike lane so I'm safe." If and
when a fatality occurs, many will say "See? We need a concrete wall
between cars and bikes!" As if the concrete wall would extend all the
way across an intersection!


https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/well/live/are-bike-lanes-really-safe.html

https://biketoeverything.com/2021/01/19/avoid-the-right-hook/

https://virtuousbicycle.com/BlogSpace/avoiding-the-right-hook/


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
>
> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't going to help
> much.

I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.

Did you have some specifics in mind?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:41:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>
> Did you have some specifics in mind?

Locally, L.A.B. has mounted a compaign to persuade right-turning
drivers that they must never merge in behind a bicycle in a bike lane
and wait their turn to use the intersection, but instead overtake and
suddenly swerve across the bike lane from the straight-through lane.

Looking for more specifics would be tedious and disheartening.

[AMuzi]

Examples abound:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/the-dei-threat-to-our-military-academies

You taught engineering which once included formulae and
necessary mathematics. That was long ago in cultural terms:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/

https://mynorthwest.com/2937573/rantz-teacher-uses-science-class-to-call-white-middle-schoolers-privileged-oppressors/

[Tom Kunich]

Mathematics taught and tested by "the book" does not produce the very best mathematicians. That is done by the students themselves. A passing grade may not be good but very much of the advancement of mathematics has been made by people who find that subject interesting but who may have trouble following the teaching methods of others.

I explained before that my lung injury was caused because the PhD's did not have the common sense to add a safety factor to pumping out the poison gas chamber. But that would not have been necessary if they had originally given me the proper calculations to properly explain the operating characteristics of the sensor. I went back to them several times and asked if they were SURE that the sensor operated that way and even after supposedly rechecking the calculations several times they still insisted that they were correct. So I had to get a book and teach myself calculus so that I could start with the basic sensor information from the manufacturer to discover they were entirely off. Correcting the program at the very last moment I had to shorten the pump down time and reprogram the device in order to prove that it would then properly work. I got the device properly showing the exact amount of gas down to its lowest level in the last hour of the last day of the contract. If those physicists had used an actual mathematician instead of thinking that math was too easy for a PhD. they would have gotten their program weeks earlier and without endangering my life.

[Frank Krygowski]

Can you give links to document that campaign? If it's what you claim, I
know people who would be very interested in countering it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2023 2:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what
>>>> they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
>>>
>>> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't going to help
>>> much.
>>
>> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>>
>> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>>
>
> Examples abound:
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/the-dei-threat-to-our-military-academies

I know bike-related topics are rare in this group, but
I was actually talking about education related to on-road bicycling.

And I assure you, despite the fears of many, engineering schools still
teach actual engineering. In fact, most engineering professors I know
seem to be at least a bit right of center in their politics. I can give
examples, but some here will whine that I'm making things up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Apologies then.
We certainly agree about false concepts and
counterproductive theory in the area of so called education
about cycling in traffic.

[sms]

On 10/20/2023 10:51 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:41:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>>
>> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>
> Locally, L.A.B. has mounted a compaign to persuade right-turning
> drivers that they must never merge in behind a bicycle in a bike lane
> and wait their turn to use the intersection, but instead overtake and
> suddenly swerve across the bike lane from the straight-through lane.

This contradicts California law where you are supposed to merge into the
bike lane up to 200 feet prior to turning right. Unlikely that L.A.B. is
advocating swerving across the bike lane.

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 15:44:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Can you give links to document that campaign?

It isn't an organized campaign, just sporadic announcements that car
tires must never, ever touch pavement used by bicycles.

Since bike lanes are the most-annoying result of League Against
Bicycling's "Bike Friendly City" designation, that was the first
example to spring to mind.

I keep losing the slips of paper on which I write the widths of the
bike lanes. Next time I measure them, I must post them on my Web
site.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/20/2023 8:32 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 15:44:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Can you give links to document that campaign?
>
> It isn't an organized campaign, just sporadic announcements that car
> tires must never, ever touch pavement used by bicycles.
>
> Since bike lanes are the most-annoying result of League Against
> Bicycling's "Bike Friendly City" designation, that was the first
> example to spring to mind.

Ah. I've noted that "never, ever touch" concept in many online
complaints from delicate cyclists. I hadn't seen it in anything the LAB
directly says.

I looked around for a while and attempted to log into LAB's driver
education program, but their site froze during my registration and
wouldn't allow me in.

But searching for Warsaw IN bike education led me to this, from Fort
Collins:
https://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/files/ride-smart-drive-smart-brochure.pdf

I note it says under "move right to turn right" that motorists should
"treat a bike lane like a right turn lane."

As I understand, that's the law in most states, with Oregon as an
illogical exception. However, when I do it here in Ohio (which is
roughly once per week) I never see anyone else doing it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joy Beeson]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 21:05:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> But searching for Warsaw IN bike education led me to this, from Fort
> Collins:
> https://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/files/ride-smart-drive-smart-brochure.pdf
>
> I note it says under "move right to turn right" that motorists should
> "treat a bike lane like a right turn lane."

Yea, rah! The Indiana driver's manual explicitly forbids that. I'd
post a link, but the link is on the Linux computer and it's almost
bedtime.

(My Linux is not on our intranet, so copying information from it to
the computer that Agent is on isn't something to do when it's one
minute to shut-down time.)

[Frank Krygowski]

About the driver's manual: It's been noted that in some places, Ohio's
driver's manual - the ones people study to get their license - conflicts
with Ohio traffic laws.

One example is the manual claims one cannot (ever) cross a yellow line
to pass. But Ohio law specifically allows doing that when it's safe, and
when the vehicle (including bikes) are going no more than half the speed
limit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On 10/18/2023 3:21 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Not convinced it makes much difference, it’s up with painted bike lanes,
>> shows willing or more likely box ticking efforts but doesn’t seem to do
>> much.
>>
>> While more expensive at least up front decent segregated infrastructure
>> does seem to change folks habits be that more cyclists or more varied
>> types.
>

> How much difference it makes depends on what someone is trying to
> achieve. Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
> wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
> achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.
>
That is real edge case stuff, that you needed training to use roads? Some
folks maybe will have had some training as a kid, beyond that the essential
ie don’t hug the kerb seems to be instinctively known.

> Because what was the alternative? Wait for "protective bike lanes"
> everywhere? Even simple bike lane stripes are not yet on more than a
> microscopic portion of the streets and roads I ride. If I'd waited for
> those things, I'd still be confined to my driveway.
>
> If instead people are trying to achieve big changes in society, I don't
> see that fancy bike infrastructure is working. After years of inflated
> estimates of 6+% bike mode share, Portland Oregon is dealing with a huge
> drop in bike mode share. And as a guy who visited Portland frequently, I
> know there was no time that 6% of the vehicles in motion were bicycles.
> Other American cities typically have bike mode shares down around 1%,
> even if they have miles and miles of (empty) bike lanes.
>
I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.

> Americans are not going to use bikes instead of cars except for very
> unusual places - places where motoring is somehow restricted or
> impractical. No amount of expensive, weird and often incompetently
> designed bike facilities will make Americans give up cars. Worse, those
> who constantly say "We NEED separate facilities because roads are too
> DANGEROUS!" are telling most people that they should never ride a bike
> because of that danger. It's counterproductive.
>
> Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.
>
>
Cars are not natural forces of the world, if Europe can certainly in the
cities start to become less car dominated no reason the Americans can’t not
suggesting all journeys need to be by bike, or no cars just less.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 09:42:53 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

Perhaps in Europe but in the U.S. nearly everyone owns a car.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/car-ownership-statistics/
In 2021 only 8.3% of U.S. families DID NOT own a car. Some 37.10%
owned 2 cars and 22.3% owned 3 or more.

And somewhere I read that some 25% of all car trips were 1 mile or
less.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1230-march-21-2022-more-half-all-daily-trips-were-less-three-miles-2021

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 5:42:57 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
> > wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
> > achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.
> >
> That is real edge case stuff, that you needed training to use roads? Some
> folks maybe will have had some training as a kid, beyond that the essential
> ie don’t hug the kerb seems to be instinctively known.

"Don't hug the curb" is absolutely NOT instinctively known in the U.S.! I read today about a
Hollywood producer, known for getting everywhere on his bike, who was killed by getting doored.
He rode close enough to a parked car that when the driver popped the door open, the cyclist
was knocked down immediately in front of a passing car.

Britain, where you live, has educational material and programs for cyclists, does it not?
One of the main points is to ride in the "primary position" on the road, is it not? If that
were instinctively known, they would not devote ink, lessons and bandwidth to teaching it.

And I'll remind you that there are individuals in this group who seem to believe a cyclist should
never delay any motorist. I've been called names here for suggesting riding lane center is wise.

> > Because what was the alternative? Wait for "protective bike lanes"
> > everywhere? Even simple bike lane stripes are not yet on more than a
> > microscopic portion of the streets and roads I ride. If I'd waited for
> > those things, I'd still be confined to my driveway.
> >
> > If instead people are trying to achieve big changes in society, I don't
> > see that fancy bike infrastructure is working. After years of inflated
> > estimates of 6+% bike mode share, Portland Oregon is dealing with a huge
> > drop in bike mode share. And as a guy who visited Portland frequently, I
> > know there was no time that 6% of the vehicles in motion were bicycles.
> > Other American cities typically have bike mode shares down around 1%,
> > even if they have miles and miles of (empty) bike lanes.
> >
> I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
> using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.

Bull. I've ridden quite a lot in Portland, Oregon, America's poster child for "innovative" bike
facilities. I've ridden in (or sometimes purposely avoided) bike lanes in countless cities,
including in Europe. With other local cyclists, I've experienced and complained about the
very newest ones installed within 10 miles of my home.

> > Americans are not going to use bikes instead of cars except for very
> > unusual places - places where motoring is somehow restricted or
> > impractical. No amount of expensive, weird and often incompetently
> > designed bike facilities will make Americans give up cars. Worse, those
> > who constantly say "We NEED separate facilities because roads are too
> > DANGEROUS!" are telling most people that they should never ride a bike
> > because of that danger. It's counterproductive.
> >
> > Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.

- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 10/22/2023 4:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
> using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.

Bingo.

> Cars are not natural forces of the world, if Europe can certainly in the
> cities start to become less car dominated no reason the Americans can’t not
> suggesting all journeys need to be by bike, or no cars just less.

It's happening in cities that have decided to make it happen. San
Francisco has had a huge increase in journey's by bicycle as a result of
several things coming together. A big increase in bicycle
infrastructure, expensive and limited parking, car break-ins, and a
decrease in automobile traffic caused by remote-working.

Down in Silicon Valley, Palo Alto made a big commitment to bicycle
infrastructure with bicycle boulevards (no bike lanes, just a street
with priority for bicycles and eliminating through traffic for cars)
<https://www.routeyou.com/en-us/route/view/2049925/cycle-route/ellen-fletcher-bicycle-boulevard>.
Once you cross into Mountain View it continues and links up with
multiple MUPs that serves major job centers. Another MUP is in the
planning states that will link up with the major Apple campuses
<https://walkbikecupertino.org/projects-and-funding/junipero-serra-i-280-trail/>
though it will not be a pleasant recreational path. Still need a name
for that trail after objections to naming it the Junipero Serra trail
given the history of Father Junipero Serra.

Also helping increase cycling in Silicon Valley is the very poor public
transit, as well as the mild weather.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:39:05 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 5:42:57?AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
>> > wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
>> > achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.
>> >
>> That is real edge case stuff, that you needed training to use roads? Some
>> folks maybe will have had some training as a kid, beyond that the essential
>> ie don’t hug the kerb seems to be instinctively known.
>
>"Don't hug the curb" is absolutely NOT instinctively known in the U.S.! I read today about a
>Hollywood producer, known for getting everywhere on his bike, who was killed by getting doored.
>He rode close enough to a parked car that when the driver popped the door open, the cyclist
>was knocked down immediately in front of a passing car.
>
>Britain, where you live, has educational material and programs for cyclists, does it not?
>One of the main points is to ride in the "primary position" on the road, is it not? If that
>were instinctively known, they would not devote ink, lessons and bandwidth to teaching it.

I've seen TV commercials where the consumer is advised not to ingest
the product if they are allergic to the ingrediants.

>And I'll remind you that there are individuals in this group who seem to believe a cyclist should
>never delay any motorist. I've been called names here for suggesting riding lane center is wise.

I''ve seen neither of those. Must have been before I started reading
RBT. Oh, Wait, it's likely just another Krygowski exaggeration.

Amplifying achievements, obstacles and problems to seek attention is
an everyday occurrence[1] Inflating the difficulty of achieving a goal
after attaining it, can be used to bolster self-esteem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggeration

[Tom Kunich]

This is a case of Krygowski lying straight out. NO ONE has ever said that you should not delay traffic under any conditions. But while we have said that these should be rare and only when necessary, Frank had repeatedly said that there should be no bike lanes and that people on bicycle should take the lane.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 09:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, he has written articles and has been interviewed about bicycle
safety issues...


Am I qualified to talk about such things? Yes, by virtue of attending multiple
classes at various levels for each of the programs described above. I've also acted
as an editorial consultant on two well known books dealing with those matters.
I've written many articles on those and related topics, and had some of them
reprinted by publications in other states and one other country. I no longer maintain
the teaching certification, but I've taught many cycling classes, I've written scripts for
and appeared in televised instructional spots, I've been interviewed for newspapers and
TV on such matters, and I've spoken (by request) at city, regional and statewide gatherings.

--Frank Krygowski
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/zq7Xw0dOUx4/m/cPDmX5OWAQAJ

[sms]

On 10/22/2023 4:42 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
> using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.

Bingo.

> Cars are not natural forces of the world, if Europe can certainly in the
> cities start to become less car dominated no reason the Americans can’t not
> suggesting all journeys need to be by bike, or no cars just less.

[Tom Kunich]

I really have to wonder how often and where you actually ride. Palo Alto has strong traffic control with stop lights or signs near most intersections but bike lanes are very limited. I've never found bike trails except near the bridgeway.

Yes the south bay area around where Silicon Valley used to be has bike lanes but very often next to a 4 or 6 lane street without any signals and on which cars are traveling 60 or more mph, drifting in and out of the bike lanes at the small curves and are entirely unpoliced as far as I've ever seen.

Riding by Google and Apple I have NOT seen much bicycle parking and the safest roads leading to them are dirt trails that are part of the Bay Trails.

At what point did you become an expert on Junipero Serra? Reading some Woke book about him? The Spanish Mission system entirely ended the continuous warring of California tribes against one another so making claims about that system needs extraordinary proof and not stupid comments. We do know that as the Mission System ended with the ceding of California to the US, most of the tribes did not go back to their tribal systems but took the names of their missions as their tribal names.

[Rolf Mantel]

> Perhaps in Europe but in the U.S. nearly everyone owns a car.
> https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/car-ownership-statistics/
> In 2021 only 8.3% of U.S. families DID NOT own a car. Some 37.10%
> owned 2 cars and 22.3% owned 3 or more.

Also in Europe, nearly everybody owns a car. European cites typically
fall under

>>> places where motoring is somehow restricted or impractical

just like New York City or San Francisco.

Lack of space means it's impossible to allocate enough space to make car
driving enjoyable, so the proportion of people happy to use public
transport or bicycles is a lot higher than in sprawled-out cites.
This in turn enables politicians to restrict the proportion of land
allocated to cars, makeing car driving even less attractive...

[John B.]

Rather like Bangkok. While we had a car we used it mainly for trips
away from the city. In fact the only time we used it in the city was a
weekly trip to buy groceries which was about a 2 km drive to the store
and 2 km home again, with the weeks food..

But having said that, Bangkok has a rather extensive public
transportation system and it is much quicker to take public
transportation then to drive.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:09:13 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I hate driving in the city so I only do it when I have to. I hate
riding a bicycle in the city even more, and since I don't ever have to
ride in the city, I don't do it. I'll ride a suburban or rural, low
traffic road occasionally, but for the pure pleasure bike ride that I
prefer, nothing beats rural bike trails like I'll be doing today. The
county just repaved the six mile Starkey Park trail that I use as a
warm up and that takes me out to the 56 mile state managed Suncoast
Trail. The Suncoast is mostly rural, but it does go through a couple
of suburban areas, however it parallels a limited access highway so it
doesn't require stopping at intersections every three or four hundred
feet.

[Roger Merriman]

Realistically if folks can drive easily then large % will, in general folks
like easy life. As car numbers have grown become less easy particularly in
cities and further in.

Ie the idea even london which is having significant grown in cycling
numbers are still low, though walking is broadly equal to driving and
public transport ie 3 way split, though the exact split will depend where.

In general cities seem to be discouraging car use, and encouraging other
uses be that cycling/walking bus/tram/train boats and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 11:57:07 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
>
> It's happening in cities that have decided to make it happen. San
> Francisco has had a huge increase in journey's by bicycle as a result of
> several things coming together. A big increase in bicycle
> infrastructure, expensive and limited parking, car break-ins, and a
> decrease in automobile traffic caused by remote-working.

"It's happening" ... "a big increase..." San Francisco's bike mode share is still
under 4%. Its mode share began "surging" (if a percent or two is a surge) while
a lawsuit prevented the building of almost any bike facilities. Bicycling apparently
became fashionable, so people began bicycling.

Bicycling was fashionable in Portland too, for a very long time. Maybe that's what
triggered SF's fashion. But Portland's bike mode share has been dropping like
a stone, despite ever more "innovative" bike facilities. It may be that SF's bike mode
share will go through the same boom and bust. We'll see.

I'd love to see guesses from the facilities fanatics on what America's bike mode share
will be in five or ten years. How soon will our society transform itself, and to what degree?

For the record, nationwide bike mode share has been something like 0.6% for years upon
years, despite the charming predictions of the paint & path crowd.

Andrew said something like "Those who like to bike will bike. Those who don't like to bike
won't bike." I'll add that Fashion will also play a part - and will probably have a bigger
influence than any collection of "innovative" facilities.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 3:39:45 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Realistically if folks can drive easily then large % will, in general folks
> like easy life.

Exactly. That's been proven true even in "new towns" designed from scratch to
have bike access to all important points, totally separate from motor vehicle traffic.
https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/they-built-it-and-they-didnt-come-the-lesson-of-milton-keynes/

If you want lots of bike mode share, you have to restrict motor vehicles. Some cities
do that, either accidentally or deliberately. Very few American cities will ever do that.
Americans love their cars.

Oh, and the usual spiel, "ordinary roads are SO DANGEROUS! We NEED protected facilities"
discourages bicycling here and now. That false claim is much faster at scaring people
away from ever cycling than it is at getting facilities built. And it will never get them built
all the way to every place people need to travel in any given city.

- Frank Krygowski

-

[John B.]

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:39:41 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 11:36:47 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 22.10.2023 um 14:23 schrieb John B.:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 09:42:53 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/18/2023 3:21 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Not convinced it makes much difference, it?s up with painted bike lanes,
>>>>>>> shows willing or more likely box ticking efforts but doesn?t seem to do

>>>>>>> much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While more expensive at least up front decent segregated infrastructure
>>>>>>> does seem to change folks habits be that more cyclists or more varied
>>>>>>> types.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How much difference it makes depends on what someone is trying to
>>>>>> achieve. Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
>>>>>> wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
>>>>>> achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is real edge case stuff, that you needed training to use roads? Some
>>>>> folks maybe will have had some training as a kid, beyond that the essential

>>>>> ie don?t hug the kerb seems to be instinctively known.

>>>>>
>>>>>> Because what was the alternative? Wait for "protective bike lanes"
>>>>>> everywhere? Even simple bike lane stripes are not yet on more than a
>>>>>> microscopic portion of the streets and roads I ride. If I'd waited for
>>>>>> those things, I'd still be confined to my driveway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If instead people are trying to achieve big changes in society, I don't
>>>>>> see that fancy bike infrastructure is working. After years of inflated
>>>>>> estimates of 6+% bike mode share, Portland Oregon is dealing with a huge
>>>>>> drop in bike mode share. And as a guy who visited Portland frequently, I
>>>>>> know there was no time that 6% of the vehicles in motion were bicycles.
>>>>>> Other American cities typically have bike mode shares down around 1%,
>>>>>> even if they have miles and miles of (empty) bike lanes.
>>>>>>

>>>>> I don?t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
>>>>> using I?d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.

>>>>>
>>>>>> Americans are not going to use bikes instead of cars except for very
>>>>>> unusual places - places where motoring is somehow restricted or
>>>>>> impractical. No amount of expensive, weird and often incompetently
>>>>>> designed bike facilities will make Americans give up cars. Worse, those
>>>>>> who constantly say "We NEED separate facilities because roads are too
>>>>>> DANGEROUS!" are telling most people that they should never ride a bike
>>>>>> because of that danger. It's counterproductive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Cars are not natural forces of the world, if Europe can certainly in the

>>>>> cities start to become less car dominated no reason the Americans can?t not

I suspect that the percentage, anywhere, that will ride a bicycle as a
means of transportation will always be low.
"GOOD LORD! It's Raining!", for example.

Singapore probably has the largest percent of folks that "ride to
work" and that is only from their housing area to the nearest
subway/bus station where the park the bike and take public
transportation.
See
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/politics/27000-bike-spaces-at-mrt-stations-allocated-based-on-user-demand
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 10/23/2023 6:09 AM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Rather like Bangkok. While we had a car we used it mainly for trips
> away from the city. In fact the only time we used it in the city was a
> weekly trip to buy groceries which was about a 2 km drive to the store
> and 2 km home again, with the weeks food..
>
> But having said that, Bangkok has a rather extensive public
> transportation system and it is much quicker to take public
> transportation then to drive.

You've pointed out a key issue that the politicians in cities like San
Francisco intentionally ignore, for specific reasons.

In San Francisco, even residents that use public transportation for
commuting are still very likely to own a car. It's necessary for
shopping, for weekend excursions, for taking the kids to whatever
activities they need to go to.

In San Francisco they recently passed a law that eliminates the
requirement that developers include off-street parking for new projects.
Since underground parking is very expensive to build the developers are
thrilled to export the parking onto city streets. This is not only a
security issue but it also eliminates EV charging in underground
garages. It also puts so many cars onto the streets that any attempt to
convert street parking to bicycle infrastructure is opposed.

For for-sale housing, developers will still include parking, even though
it's not required, because it would be difficult to sell the houses or
condos if there was no parking. For rental housing they may not care
even though they can charge extra for parking spaces. It costs about
$80,000 per underground parking space. They would have to charge a lot
per space to make that expense pencil out.

[sms]

On 10/23/2023 5:16 PM, John B. wrote:

> I suspect that the percentage, anywhere, that will ride a bicycle as a
> means of transportation will always be low.
> "GOOD LORD! It's Raining!", for example.

When I first visited China, in 1987, there was only one small subway in
the whole country (a short line in Beijing). People commuted by bicycle.
Now there are extensive subway systems in large and medium cities, and
bicycle use for commuting is much rarer. You saw how the whole bicycle
share industry collapsed in China <https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1009095>.

Some people try to attribute every change in the number of commuter
cyclists to whatever reason they can come up with that fits the
narrative that they are promoting. The biggest example of this was an
effort to claim that a mandatory helmet law led to a reduction in
cycling. The reality was the cycling numbers actually increased after
the law was passed. The story then changed to "well, the cycling numbers
didn't increase proportionally with the population increase so that
proves that the helmet law was responsible." The reality is that cycling
numbers change for multiple reasons such as changes in weather, changes
in public transit infrastructure, changes in bicycling infrastructure,
changes in work culture such as remote-working, demographic changes
especially an aging population, and crime.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 05:16:14 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I suspect that in the USA, most bicycling is done for recreation, not
transportation, and I doubt that's going to change. The state and
local governments around here are investing in bike trails everywhere
I look.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 7:25:19 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
>
> Some people try to attribute every change in the number of commuter
> cyclists to whatever reason they can come up with that fits the
> narrative that they are promoting.

Yes, indeed! Thanks for admitting that. What I've been posting on that issue
is the _lack_ of increase in bike mode share despite countless miles of ever-
weirder "innovative" bike facilities. They built it, but they didn't come. And to
repeat, in Portland they keep building "it" and bike mode share is dropping like
a stone,

>The biggest example of this was an
> effort to claim that a mandatory helmet law led to a reduction in
> cycling. The reality was the cycling numbers actually increased after
> the law was passed. The story then changed to "well, the cycling numbers
> didn't increase proportionally with the population increase so that
> proves that the helmet law was responsible."

So Scharf speaks in defense of all-ages mandatory helmet laws!

And Scharf must be referring to Australia's territories and New Zealand, which are really
the only large jurisdictions with all ages, pretty well enforced mandatory helmet laws (MHLs).
And although he seems unable to understand concepts like "per capita," the per-capita
cycling rate dropped sharply when those MHLs were instituted. They have NOT recovered.

> The reality is that cycling
> numbers change for multiple reasons such as changes in weather, changes
> in public transit infrastructure, changes in bicycling infrastructure,
> changes in work culture such as remote-working, demographic changes
> especially an aging population, and crime.

Yet the drops in Australia's and New Zealand's per capita cycling were step changes,
drops that occurred immediately after the imposition of the MHLs. What other step
changes occurred at that same time? Did weather suddenly and permanently become
more hostile? Did public transit suddenly get built everywhere? Did work culture
instantanously change across Australia?

No. The biggest change was the sudden imposition of fines (now over $300) for
riding a bike without a styrofoam hat. Oddly enough, tons of people said "Screw it.
I'm not riding a bike." And now, after decades of propaganda, tons of people are
saying "Just riding a bike is so dangerous it can kill you without the funny hat! I'm
not doing anything that dangerous!"

Meanwhile, pedestrian traffic deaths eclipse bicyclist deaths both in total and per mile
traveled. But no helmets for them!

- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

> I suspect that the percentage, anywhere, that will ride a bicycle as a
> means of transportation will always be low.
> "GOOD LORD! It's Raining!", for example.

Wrong. Several cities in Europe (typically in the size range of 100,000
to 500,000 people) have 40% of all journeys made by bicycle; cities
above 500,000 people are more likely to be public-transport dominated.

Rolf

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sun, 22 Oct 2023 09:42:53 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
>using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.

Do you mean last years bicycle infrastructure, which, as everybody
already knows, is absolutely inferior, or next years bicycle
infrastructure, which people favor today, in theory?

Anyway. I have enough experience with "modern cycling infrastructure" to
take flight when I come across it.


--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 19:25:32 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm curious as to how the bicycle rider counting is done. It seems to
me that the only method is with polling, and maybe, with all the
latest concerns about personal privacy, many people are rejecting the
polling, as, BTW, I have always done.

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 12:08:42 +0200, Rolf Mantel

Yes, I know. Holland for example where they went to considerable
effort to make a country friendly to bicycles. 35,000 km of bike paths
and 140,000 km of auto roads.
https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/09/17/the-worlds-cycling-nation-how-the-netherlands-redesigned-itself-as-a-country-fit-for-bikes
In comparison, the U.S. would have to build some 1,047,550 miles
(1,685,787.8 km) of Bike paths to compete.

Can you imagine a politician standing up and announcing that "If
elected I will build a million miles of bicycle paths which may cost
the tax payer as much as $5,237,600,000."
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/saferjourney1/library/countermeasures/10.htm
(:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

See
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/04/survey-100-million-americans-bike-each-year-but-few-make-it-a-habit
The study found that about 34 percent of Americans over the age of
three rode a bike at least once in the last year. For adults over 18,
the share was a slightly smaller 29 percent. But of everyone who
bikes, less than half, ride more than twice a month, and just 14
percent bike at least twice a week.

U.S. population - 111,991,433
once a year - 38,077,087
twice a week - 15,678,800
(Note I can find no data for "under 3 years of age", so used 0-4)

Based on a survey of 16,000 American adults. Or some .0014% of the
U.S. population above 4 years of age.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 5:42:57 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
>>> wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
>>> achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.
>>>
>> That is real edge case stuff, that you needed training to use roads? Some
>> folks maybe will have had some training as a kid, beyond that the essential
>> ie don’t hug the kerb seems to be instinctively known.
>
> "Don't hug the curb" is absolutely NOT instinctively known in the U.S.! I
> read today about a
> Hollywood producer, known for getting everywhere on his bike, who was
> killed by getting doored.
> He rode close enough to a parked car that when the driver popped the door
> open, the cyclist
> was knocked down immediately in front of a passing car.
>
> Britain, where you live, has educational material and programs for cyclists, does it not?
> One of the main points is to ride in the "primary position" on the road,
> is it not? If that
> were instinctively known, they would not devote
> ink, lessons and bandwidth to teaching it.

A vanishing amount of folks would have any cycle training, or read the
cycling parts of the Highway Code, only transport nerds!

Yet folks do take the lane and so on. I believe that vehicular cycling was
named by observing cyclists.

>
> And I'll remind you that there are individuals in this group who seem to
> believe a cyclist should
> never delay any motorist. I've been called names here for suggesting
> riding lane center is wise.
>
>>> Because what was the alternative? Wait for "protective bike lanes"
>>> everywhere? Even simple bike lane stripes are not yet on more than a
>>> microscopic portion of the streets and roads I ride. If I'd waited for
>>> those things, I'd still be confined to my driveway.
>>>
>>> If instead people are trying to achieve big changes in society, I don't
>>> see that fancy bike infrastructure is working. After years of inflated
>>> estimates of 6+% bike mode share, Portland Oregon is dealing with a huge
>>> drop in bike mode share. And as a guy who visited Portland frequently, I
>>> know there was no time that 6% of the vehicles in motion were bicycles.
>>> Other American cities typically have bike mode shares down around 1%,
>>> even if they have miles and miles of (empty) bike lanes.
>>>
>> I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
>> using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.
>
> Bull. I've ridden quite a lot in Portland, Oregon, America's poster child
> for "innovative" bike
> facilities. I've ridden in (or sometimes purposely avoided) bike lanes in countless cities,
> including in Europe. With other local cyclists, I've experienced and complained about the
> very newest ones installed within 10 miles of my home.
>

Segregated with light controlled junctions? I suspect not. I’m not
suggesting all has to be at that standard, though arguably just paint is
worse than not at all.

And Portland seems to be an outlier hence I’m sure for your reasons to
choose it, in that its share is dropping while other cities even in America
are increasing.

>>> Americans are not going to use bikes instead of cars except for very
>>> unusual places - places where motoring is somehow restricted or
>>> impractical. No amount of expensive, weird and often incompetently
>>> designed bike facilities will make Americans give up cars. Worse, those
>>> who constantly say "We NEED separate facilities because roads are too
>>> DANGEROUS!" are telling most people that they should never ride a bike
>>> because of that danger. It's counterproductive.
>>>
>>> Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.
>

Education hasn’t worked over the years decades if not 100 years roads and
cities have become car centric, which isn’t a force of nature ie doesn’t
have to be so, it is a choice.

> - Frank Krygowski
>
Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 19:00:31 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I have trouble accepting the results of surveys asking about people's
habits and preferences. There are some people who are eager to be
acknowledged, and others, like myself, who aren't.

That being said, it's obvious that in a list of countries, the USA is
pretty low in the bicycling_for_transportation category. I don't know
and I don't care why that is, and I'm not interested in trying to
change that. I think people should be able to ride their bikes when,
where, how, and for whatever reasons appeals to them. I also think the
efforts to limit gas powered vehicles are best left to the market, and
not the nanny government.

[sms]

On 10/24/2023 7:00 AM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/04/survey-100-million-americans-bike-each-year-but-few-make-it-a-habit
> The study found that about 34 percent of Americans over the age of
> three rode a bike at least once in the last year. For adults over 18,
> the share was a slightly smaller 29 percent. But of everyone who
> bikes, less than half, ride more than twice a month, and just 14
> percent bike at least twice a week.
>
> U.S. population - 111,991,433
> once a year - 38,077,087
> twice a week - 15,678,800
> (Note I can find no data for "under 3 years of age", so used 0-4)
>
> Based on a survey of 16,000 American adults. Or some .0014% of the
> U.S. population above 4 years of age.

Such a study, conducted over the entire country, is pretty worthless.
There are parts of the U.S. where bicycle use is high for a number of
factors, including weather, income, ethnicity, bicycle infrastructure,
types of industries, etc..

In my area you have professionals commuting to work, elderly parents
from China that live with their adult children and don't drive so they
bike to the store or to pick up their grandchildren from school, day
workers, and students, which contributes to a relatively high percentage
of cyclists, though still small in the scheme of things. In other areas
of the U.S. bicycling is less practical for much of the year, either too
hot and humid or too cold and snowy.

You also have the effects of the pandemic bike boom where people were
biking for recreation and, in cities, for commuting because they wanted
to stay off of public transit
<https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/10/07/dot-cycling-in-the-city-report-confirms-2020-bike-boom-really-happened>.
The pandemic also increased driving as people stayed off of public transit.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:34:36 AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Britain, where you live, has educational material and programs for cyclists, does it not?
> > One of the main points is to ride in the "primary position" on the road,
> > is it not? If that
> > were instinctively known, they would not devote
> > ink, lessons and bandwidth to teaching it.
> A vanishing amount of folks would have any cycle training, or read the
> cycling parts of the Highway Code, only transport nerds!
>
> Yet folks do take the lane and so on. I believe that vehicular cycling was
> named by observing cyclists.

Vehicular Cycling is mostly just riding according to normal laws
for vehicles, which is what the laws actually tell cyclists to do. John Forester did
the most to promote the idea in the U.S., and point out that "cyclists fare best" when
doing that, as opposed to other oddball behaviors.

Forester said he didn't invent the practice of vehicular cycling. Instead, he learned it
as standard behavior when growing up in Britain. He claimed it was much more common
there, possibly because Brits have always used bikes for transportation. Americans did
not. From the 1930s to the 1970s at least, American bikes were considered just kids' toys.
And kids were told nonsense like "Ride facing traffic so you can see cars coming" or "If a
car comes, get off the road until it's gone" or "It's safer to always ride on the sidewalk."
Forester was among the first here to point out the fallacy of those ideas.

> >> I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
> >> using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.
> >
> > Bull. I've ridden quite a lot in Portland, Oregon, America's poster child
> > for "innovative" bike
> > facilities. I've ridden in (or sometimes purposely avoided) bike lanes in countless cities,
> > including in Europe. With other local cyclists, I've experienced and complained about the
> > very newest ones installed within 10 miles of my home.
> >
> Segregated with light controlled junctions? I suspect not. I’m not
> suggesting all has to be at that standard, though arguably just paint is
> worse than not at all.

I've already noted the ever-increasing criteria for "safety" among the timid. Is "Segregated with
light controlled junctions" now going to be THE minimum standard for "safety"? So will bike
advocates next year be saying "We NEED separate traffic light phases at every intersection so
our 'protected bike lanes' will finally be SAFE!"?

How will you convince the countless jurisdictions in America to spend the money
on the installation of those special traffic lights? How will you justify the cost in
loss of intersection efficiency, and in increased travel times and traffic congestion?

> And Portland seems to be an outlier hence I’m sure for your reasons to
> choose it, in that its share is dropping while other cities even in America
> are increasing.

Portland is an outlier, famous for having a long, long history of installing a huge array
of ever-weirder bike facilities. It's also been famous for its outsized bike mode
share (although that was computed in a rather deceptive way). The "Paint & Path"
crowd used Portland as their "proof" of "Build it and they will come," claiming
that the (only?) reason Portland had a pretty large bike mode share was its bike
facility collection. They claimed that, even way back when there was nothing 'fancier'
than a painted bike lane, BTW - those same stripes that "paint & path" people now
deride as terribly inadequate.

But it seems obvious to me that the bike lanes, etc. were not THE cause of Portland's
bike boom, any more than the bike lanes caused Portland's tattoos, leather
jackets, music scene, vegan restaurants and all the rest. Portland attracted a young
demographic that is proud of its weirdness. (Our kid still has a bumper sticker
saying "Keep Portland Weird".) Fashions come there, and fashions go.

It is a really interesting city. But the really heavy use of bikes is largely in the flattest
areas, not the extremely hilly west side of the city. (Jay Beattie was a strong
exception to that.) Portland's climate is mild, somewhat rainy but usually with
few days of snow or ice, few days of high humidity heat. The most bikeable
parts have mixed use neighborhoods, with plenty of housing close to plenty
of shops, so short trip lengths. All that facilitates bike use. Yet despite those factors
plus the large collection of bike facilities, it looks like cycling is going out of fashion, with
mode share suddenly down more than half.

> >>> Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.
> >
> Education hasn’t worked over the years decades if not 100 years roads and
> cities have become car centric, which isn’t a force of nature ie doesn’t
> have to be so, it is a choice.

The definition of "works" depends on the goal. Your phrasing suggests your goal
is to free cities from dominance by automobiles and drivers. While I think that
would be pleasant in many ways, I think that in the U.S. at least, that is flat out
impossible - barring, say, major asteroid strikes that totally disrupt society.

My goal was always to ride my bike wherever I wanted to ride my bike. I chose
to bike for transportation as well as recreation, and I wanted to do it safely
and enjoy it. For that, I had two choices: Education (that is, learn how to do it)
or "Wait For Special Infrastructure."

If I'd chosen the latter, I'd have missed out on over 50 years of wonderful cycling.

BTW, I'm out of town on a family visit now. In a few minutes I'll get on my bike and
ride to do some light shopping, then I'll head to a library where a book is waiting for me
to borrow. If I needed separate bike facilities, I'd have to wait for a few more years
to make those trips.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 09:10:32 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 9:34:36?AM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Britain, where you live, has educational material and programs for cyclists, does it not?
>> > One of the main points is to ride in the "primary position" on the road,
>> > is it not? If that
>> > were instinctively known, they would not devote
>> > ink, lessons and bandwidth to teaching it.
>> A vanishing amount of folks would have any cycle training, or read the
>> cycling parts of the Highway Code, only transport nerds!
>>
>> Yet folks do take the lane and so on. I believe that vehicular cycling was
>> named by observing cyclists.
>
>Vehicular Cycling is mostly just riding according to normal laws
>for vehicles, which is what the laws actually tell cyclists to do. John Forester did
>the most to promote the idea in the U.S., and point out that "cyclists fare best" when
>doing that, as opposed to other oddball behaviors.

That seemed to be his opinion, anyway...

>Forester said he didn't invent the practice of vehicular cycling. Instead, he learned it
>as standard behavior when growing up in Britain. He claimed it was much more common
>there, possibly because Brits have always used bikes for transportation. Americans did
>not. From the 1930s to the 1970s at least, American bikes were considered just kids' toys.
>And kids were told nonsense like "Ride facing traffic so you can see cars coming" or "If a
>car comes, get off the road until it's gone" or "It's safer to always ride on the sidewalk."
>Forester was among the first here to point out the fallacy of those ideas.
>
>> >> I don’t believe you have any experience of modern infrastructure, and are
>> >> using I’d suspect some dubious data points as the fit your argument.
>> >
>> > Bull. I've ridden quite a lot in Portland, Oregon, America's poster child
>> > for "innovative" bike
>> > facilities. I've ridden in (or sometimes purposely avoided) bike lanes in countless cities,
>> > including in Europe. With other local cyclists, I've experienced and complained about the
>> > very newest ones installed within 10 miles of my home.
>> >
>> Segregated with light controlled junctions? I suspect not. I’m not
>> suggesting all has to be at that standard, though arguably just paint is
>> worse than not at all.
>
>
>I've already noted the ever-increasing criteria for "safety" among the timid. Is "Segregated with
>light controlled junctions" now going to be THE minimum standard for "safety"? So will bike
>advocates next year be saying "We NEED separate traffic light phases at every intersection so
>our 'protected bike lanes' will finally be SAFE!"?
>
>How will you convince the countless jurisdictions in America to spend the money
>on the installation of those special traffic lights? How will you justify the cost in
>loss of intersection efficiency, and in increased travel times and traffic congestion?

I'm not interested in "those special traffic lights." Mostly, when
riding, I ignore any and all traffic lights.

Actually,there's a third choice, but it requires the ability to think
for yourself.

>If I'd chosen the latter, I'd have missed out on over 50 years of wonderful cycling.

Funny, I've ridden that long, mostly requiring neither of those
"choices."

>BTW, I'm out of town on a family visit now. In a few minutes I'll get on my bike and
>ride to do some light shopping, then I'll head to a library where a book is waiting for me
>to borrow. If I needed separate bike facilities, I'd have to wait for a few more years
>to make those trips.

What you need is mostly a subjective evaluation.

>- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Strange isn't it? Frank needs "education" to ride a bike safely in the
countries I've lived in there is no education for cyclists but (I'm
guessing here) the level of cycling is probably higher then in his
country and bicycle deaths are very low.

But on second thought the most recent bicycle death I've read about in
the news was an American woman who ran a red light and was hit by a
car doing an estimated 60 kmh, while her Thai companion stopped and
wasn't hit. Perhaps Frank and his ilk do need education -
"See it is big and going at a wondrously fast speed. Don't get hit by
it!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 09:37:53 -0400, Catrike Rider

I've told this story before, but again. A good friend was in the
business of doing financial studies for companies and individuals
thinking of starting a new business enterprise. As part of his studies
he often did surveys and in discussing this he once stated, "Tell me
what you want to prove and I'll design a survey to prove it".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 05:30:50 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Actually, he says he needed education to ride here in the USA. OTOH,
I learned all by myself when I was a little kid.

<Sigh> Some people can't learn anything without a related education.

[John B.]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 18:50:53 -0400, Catrike Rider

I've mentioned the little Thai girl I saw riding a bike, 6, maybe 7
years old and she was doing what she should, riding on the side of the
road, looking around to see if any cars were overtaking, and so on.

Since this discussion about educating bicycle riders came up I asked
my Housekeeper, who's son is 7 years old, about bicycle education and
while she is too polite to actually say, "That's stupid", from the
look on her face it was obvious what she was thinking.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2023 6:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Strange isn't it? Frank needs "education" to ride a bike safely in the
> countries I've lived in there is no education for cyclists but (I'm
> guessing here) the level of cycling is probably higher then in his
> country and bicycle deaths are very low.

I don't know about cycling conditions in Thailand. I know about them in
the U.S., Canada and Europe.

You yourself has said many times that half of U.S. bike fatalities are
due to cyclist mistakes. Now are you trying to pretend that those people
wouldn't have done better if they had known how to avoid the mistake
that killed them? Really?

> But on second thought the most recent bicycle death I've read about in
> the news was an American woman who ran a red light and was hit by a
> car doing an estimated 60 kmh, while her Thai companion stopped and

> wasn't hit. Perhaps Frank and his ilk do need education ...

I've ridden as an avid adult cyclist for over 50 years. I've ridden in
47 states and something like 10 countries. I've fallen only three times
on the road. I've never had a crash with a car. I think the learning
I've done has contributed to that record.

Others may be fond of ignorance. I'm not.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2023 6:50 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> Actually, he says he needed education to ride here in the USA. OTOH,
> I learned all by myself when I was a little kid.

Nobody needs much education to ride back and forth, back and forth on a
flat bike trail, riding something that doesn't even require balancing.

But hey, if it keeps you moving, that's good for you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 23:12:59 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 10/24/2023 6:50 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>
>> Actually, he says he needed education to ride here in the USA. OTOH,
>> I learned all by myself when I was a little kid.
>
>Nobody needs much education to ride back and forth, back and forth on a
>flat bike trail, riding something that doesn't even require balancing.

I also needed no "education" to ride the thousands of miles I rode on
roads before I bought the Catrike, lots of it in Illinois, Wisconsin,
and here in Florida, and some in Colorado and around Central America
and the Carribean.

I realize that some people don't have the ability to learn things on
their own, but I'm not one of them.

Riding in hills, like I did just a few days ago, doesn't require any
different skills than riding where it's flat, regardless of the type
of bicyle.

...and by the way, balancing a bicycle is generally a skill little
children learn all by themselves.

>But hey, if it keeps you moving, that's good for you.


--

Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike
trails, carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to the
pedals. Nowdays,I always truck my bike to where I start my ride. I
tried and found riding a bike to the grocery store and other routine
trips to be boring. I hope I am never reduced to riding like that.
I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle rides and all my other
accomplishments. As an introvert, I also value my solitude and thus
reject intrusions so I'm free to tune into my own inner monologue.

[Roger Merriman]

Just because it’s new doesn’t mean it’s a new design, which really is my
point. Ie modern designs are segregated (mosty) and will get folks across
junctions etc.

As aside have you ridden Glenn Jackson bridge then? Has a cycleway down the
middle of the freeway, which is folks say is very loud though some folks do
like it! My commute is next to a large road though your mostly shielding by
vegetation and a few feet of verge so not as loud, though the large flyover
doesn’t though traffic isn’t as fast or as big as the freeway does have
good view into to london though due to its height!

>>>
>> Segregated with light controlled junctions? I suspect not. I’m not
>> suggesting all has to be at that standard, though arguably just paint is
>> worse than not at all.
>
>
> I've already noted the ever-increasing criteria for "safety" among the
> timid. Is "Segregated with
> light controlled junctions" now going to be THE minimum standard for
> "safety"? So will bike
> advocates next year be saying "We NEED separate
> traffic light phases at every intersection so
> our 'protected bike lanes' will finally be SAFE!"?

Well essentially because they work, number near me. Paint largely doesn’t.

>
> How will you convince the countless jurisdictions in America to spend the money
> on the installation of those special traffic lights? How will you justify the cost in
> loss of intersection efficiency, and in increased travel times and traffic congestion?
>

Doesn’t need to be every junction in my experience cyclists mostly follow
the same routes so infrastructure particularly if there is Bastard
junction.

For myself going into centre, I go via one of the Royal Parks so traffic
lite cross the river via a town Center few back roads and LTN on to the
embankment. Which is dual carriageway, no cycleway for few miles, though
until Parliament it’s only paint though have started added wands near the
junctions.

But from Parliament to Tower is fully segregated lights etc. and it’s made
quite a difference was always the least pleasant bit, least free flowing
and so on. It’s not just the extra numbers but types of riders, ie kids and
families which never got before as well a wide busy multi lane road.

Ie can get quite an effect with targeting areas.

Missing the point really as I suspect is deliberate nowhere has 100% cycle
only lanes will always be some roads that don’t.

And yes get some odd folks who ask for stuff in odd places, Richmond park
which is a nature reserve (old deer hunting park) and has a 7 mile park
loop so used by cyclists a lot plus dog walkers and you name it.

But folks have suggested bike lanes, kinda missing the point of Richmond
Park cars are doing 20mph and are generally benign it is very busy at times
but bike lanes?

[AMuzi]

People are a conundrum generally.

'Knowing' traffic law and accepting the logic of traffic
rules doesn't stop people from running red lights, sometimes
to their injury or demise.

One we enter the area of human behavior, logic becomes a
distant small factor.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[sms]

On 10/24/2023 6:09 AM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Can you imagine a politician standing up and announcing that "If
> elected I will build a million miles of bicycle paths which may cost
> the tax payer as much as $5,237,600,000."
> https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/saferjourney1/library/countermeasures/10.htm
> (:-)

No, but I can imagine politicians converting painted bike lanes to
separated bike lanes for relatively low cost, in an effort to prevent
vehicles from driving in the bike lanes.

[sms]

On 10/24/2023 5:30 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Strange isn't it? Frank needs "education" to ride a bike safely in the
> countries I've lived in there is no education for cyclists but (I'm
> guessing here) the level of cycling is probably higher then in his
> country and bicycle deaths are very low.

The U.S. is huge and diverse. I have not been to Youngstown Ohio but I
would guess that it's quite different than Silicon Valley in
demographics, weather, and other characteristics.

Agreed that in most countries there is no "education" for cyclists, but
the L.A.B. does provide a useful service with their training.

[Roger Merriman]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 10/24/2023 5:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Strange isn't it? Frank needs "education" to ride a bike safely in the
>> countries I've lived in there is no education for cyclists but (I'm
>> guessing here) the level of cycling is probably higher then in his
>> country and bicycle deaths are very low.
>
> The U.S. is huge and diverse. I have not been to Youngstown Ohio but I
> would guess that it's quite different than Silicon Valley in
> demographics, weather, and other characteristics.
>
> Agreed that in most countries there is no "education" for cyclists, but
> the L.A.B. does provide a useful service with their training.
>

Even in smaller countries get quite different terrain and what you’re
likely to,deal with to a extent same with driving, back in wales traffic
volume is low, so folks tend to be less assertive on junctions and so on.

Equally tourists can get caught out by some of the roads, the road that
connects the two villages is steep need 1st gear in places. Folks get stuck
or what ever every few years, even had a Coach party with retired American
Service personnel get lost and attempt to drive down it, didn’t work very
well!

Though local farmer got to show off his new tractor by towing it back up!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:28:18 -0500, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 10/24/2023 6:09 AM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Can you imagine a politician standing up and announcing that "If
>> elected I will build a million miles of bicycle paths which may cost
>> the tax payer as much as $5,237,600,000."
>> https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/saferjourney1/library/countermeasures/10.htm
>> (:-)
>
>No, but I can imagine politicians converting painted bike lanes to
>separated bike lanes for relatively low cost, in an effort to prevent
>vehicles from driving in the bike lanes.

The post was intended to be a comparison of bike riding conditions in
the Netherlands to that in the U.S.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 11:38:02 -0500, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 10/24/2023 5:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Strange isn't it? Frank needs "education" to ride a bike safely in the
>> countries I've lived in there is no education for cyclists but (I'm
>> guessing here) the level of cycling is probably higher then in his
>> country and bicycle deaths are very low.
>
>The U.S. is huge and diverse. I have not been to Youngstown Ohio but I
>would guess that it's quite different than Silicon Valley in
>demographics, weather, and other characteristics.
>
>Agreed that in most countries there is no "education" for cyclists, but
>the L.A.B. does provide a useful service with their training.

But Cyclists are vehemently against any form of education.
There has been a number of discussion here about the feasible of
licensing cyclists, i.e. ensuring that they are conversant with
traffic laws, and there has been an overwhelming outcry, "No, No,
No!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:45:22 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I think it's only mandated eduction that's vehemently opposed. Many
people learned how to ride a bike as a child, and quickly learned, all
by themselves how to ride amongst cars and trucks when they started
riding amongst cars and trucks.

I think people going to bicycle education programs are only excuses
for them to get together and socialize with other bicyclists. The
education, itself, is worthless.

[John B.]

Frank's argument is, at best, foolish and at worse outright lies. I
have not, for example, said that "that half of U.S. bike
fatalities are due to cyclist mistakes". I have said that "the CHP has
stated that half or more then half of the bicycle crashes were the
fault of the Cyclist". Violations of the traffic laws, in other words.

And, I might add, when I have suggested licensing of Cyclists, to
ensure that they were knowledgeable of the traffic laws, Frank has
been one of the loudest in shouting "No! No! No!"

But more of this "learning". The largest trucks you see here will be
40 ft flatbed trucks pulling a 40 ft trailer with two 40 ft Conex
containers up. A 40 ft. Conex has a maximum gross weight of 67,200 lbs
so total cargo is 134,400 lbs - 67 tons. Plus the weight of the rig,
and these trucks will be doing about 100 kmh. Certainly on the "down
hills" and probably on the flats. Does it take a lot of "learning" to
figure out that it is probably not conductive to long life to ride -
thundering along at, say 20 kmh - out in front of these behemoths? Or
in my example,run red lights, in traffic that is traveling 60 kmh or
more.

I might add that I've been ridding for 50 years, but in only 5
countries, and I've fallen only 2 times and never had an altercation
with a car or truck.... with no training at all (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, there certainly is no formal education of cyclists here but the
little Thai girl I've mentioned was certainly riding in a safe and
sensible manner so I assume that it is a matter of the parents or big
brothers and sisters telling the little ones how to act. Just as they
do with other thing.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2023 05:45:22 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> But Cyclists are vehemently against any form of education.
> There has been a number of discussion here about the feasible of
> licensing cyclists, i.e. ensuring that they are conversant with
> traffic laws,

Licensing and education are completely unrelated topics.

[Frank Krygowski]

Oh please! It's brand new (or less than two years old) but it's not new
or modern? That echos the claims of separation advocates for decades.
"We need bike lane stripes everywhere to finally be SAFE!"

And bike lane stripes are put in, then "Those are too old fashioned! We
need buffered bike lanes to be SAFE!"

And buffered bike lanes are put in. Then "We need green painted bike
lanes to be SAFE!"

And buffered bike lanes are put in. Then "We need protected bike lanes
to be SAFE!"

And bike lanes are protected with posts. Then "We need bike lanes
protected with _concrete_ to be SAFE!"

And after the right hook (in U.S.) or left hook (in U.K.) fatalities,
"We need 'protected' intersections to be SAFE!"

What some people seem to want is some parallel universe of cycling,
where cyclists can access all the locations motorists can get to, but
with their bike tires never touching pavement that has been desecrated
by contact with car tires. Apparently, that will soon be the standard
for "modern." Nothing else will be good enough.

> As aside have you ridden Glenn Jackson bridge then?

No, and you haven't ridden the Mahoning Avenue "protected" bike lane
that almost no cyclists are willing to use because of debris, and
because when heading east it ends by dumping cyclists out on the wrong
side of the road. But the city planner who pushed it through still
claims it's "innovative" and "modern."

>

>> I've already noted the ever-increasing criteria for "safety" among the
>> timid. Is "Segregated with
>> light controlled junctions" now going to be THE minimum standard for
>> "safety"? So will bike
>> advocates next year be saying "We NEED separate
>> traffic light phases at every intersection so
>> our 'protected bike lanes' will finally be SAFE!"?
>
> Well essentially because they work, number near me. Paint largely doesn’t.

A separate light phase only for cyclists "works" in that if everybody
obeys it, crashes are far less likely. But it doesn't "work" in that it
greatly reduces throughput for an intersection. People that could have
proceeded in perfect safety end up waiting unnecessarily. Or, as when I
rode through those in Stockholm a few years ago, most of the cyclists
simply ignored them and rode through their special red lights. Those
lights are unlikely to "work" for safety then!

>> How will you convince the countless jurisdictions in America to spend the money
>> on the installation of those special traffic lights? How will you justify the cost in
>> loss of intersection efficiency, and in increased travel times and traffic congestion?
>>
> Doesn’t need to be every junction in my experience cyclists mostly follow
> the same routes so infrastructure particularly if there is Bastard
> junction.
>
> For myself going into centre, I go via one of the Royal Parks so traffic
> lite cross the river via a town Center few back roads and LTN on to the

> embankment...

You've often described your very unusual route and facility. I'm not
saying that there are not very unusual locations where weird
"innovative" designs can help. But that's not what segregation advocates
are claiming. The majority of bike fatalities now generate claims that
"We need protected bike lanes NOW!" or (as you've said) "Paint stripes
don't work!" They don't qualify by saying "We need protected bike lanes
in _this_ block or on _that_ street." They seem to want them everywhere.

It's nonsense. I've never needed one. With just a bit of knowledge and
skill, a person can ride almost anywhere.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2023 8:21 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>> On 10/24/2023 10:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> You yourself has said many times that half of U.S. bike
>>> fatalities are due to cyclist mistakes. Now are you trying
>>> to pretend that those people wouldn't have done better if
>>> they had known how to avoid the mistake that killed them?
>>> Really?
>

> Frank's argument is, at best, foolish and at worse outright lies. I
> have not, for example, said that "that half of U.S. bike
> fatalities are due to cyclist mistakes". I have said that "the CHP has
> stated that half or more then half of the bicycle crashes were the
> fault of the Cyclist". Violations of the traffic laws, in other words.

Hmm. You're now saying that "the fault of the cyclist" is different than
"the cyclist's mistake."

Are you trying to say that all cyclist violations of traffic laws are
deliberate? Or are you trying to say that it's not a mistake to violate
a law? And are you claiming that education would not induce more
obedience to laws?

That's weird "logic."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Are you now claiming that education cannot occur without requiring a
license?

That's weird logic. I thought you learned to speak at least a little
Thai. Do you have a "Thai speaking license"?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/25/2023 9:39 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> Well, there certainly is no formal education of cyclists here but the
> little Thai girl I've mentioned was certainly riding in a safe and
> sensible manner so I assume that it is a matter of the parents or big
> brothers and sisters telling the little ones how to act. Just as they
> do with other thing.

"Thailand had the world’s second-highest rate of road fatalities per
capita..."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/thailand-inequality-road-fatalities.html

Sounds like somebody needs to learn something!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Certainly, but at least here, part of the process in obtaining a
driving license is providing evidence, i.e passing a test, to show
that you do know the traffic laws.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

There are actual courses in things like Critical Thinking, Logic and
even Symbolic Logic.

Your post above, John, indicates you don't have a Logic license. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Is it because of inadequate reading comprehension or simply a desire
to mislead with a strawman argument that prompted Krygowski to post
the above reply?

I'm thinking that it was the strawman option coupled with a
narcissistic need to post some sort off a reply.


---
What is "Straw Man" and Why Do Narcissists Use It?

The "straw man" technique is a common tactic used by narcissists in
order to discredit their victim's thoughts, feelings, and opinions.
This technique involves misrepresenting or distorting the victim's
point of view in order to create an argument that is easy for the
narcissist to win. Essentially, the narcissist creates a "straw man"
version of their victim's argument, which is a distorted and
exaggerated version of what the victim actually believes, and then
proceeds to attack and discredit that version of the argument.

Narcissists use the "straw man" technique in order to maintain control
over their victims and to avoid taking responsibility for their own
behavior. By misrepresenting the victim's point of view, the
narcissist can avoid addressing the real issue and shift the focus
onto the distorted argument they have created. They may also use the
"straw man" technique to make themselves appear more reasonable or
intelligent by attacking a weaker, exaggerated version of the victim's
argument.

https://www.standcoaching.com/post/unraveling-the-straw-man-recognizing-and-overcoming-narcissistic-deception

[Rolf Mantel]

In Germany, 'riding a bicyclie in traffic' is a compulsory block in
primary school at age 10 (even private schools cannot opt out); the
lessons are typically administered by the local traffic police.

[John B.]

Frankie's comments are, well, weird

When he asks about licenses, is he asking about Thai Driver's
licenses? If so, just as are U.S. drivers licenses, they are written
in the National language. With one exception the driver's name is
written with the English alphabet, as are other Thai Government
documents which contain a foreigner's name.

But perhaps he meant a license to speak Thai? If so then no license is
required. Just open your mouth and go to it.

As for his comment regarding "education cannot occur without requiring
a license?" I thought I was quite specific in saying "the feasible of

licensing cyclists, i.e. ensuring that they are conversant with

traffic laws"... or perhaps he so arrogant as to be suggesting that
somehow his knowledge supercedes the existing traffic regulations and
laws?

In reading the above, perhaps I missed the point. I've had driver's
licenses in Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia and all three required
the aspirant take a written test to ensure that the applicant does
know the traffic code. Don't they do that in the U.S. ?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

That makes perfect sense.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

just because something is built now doesn’t mean it’s a modern or good
design, ie gutter magic paint type stuff. Which are largely a waste of time
and money.

Bandwidth of the junction as whole or just for cars? For cars yes I’m sure
less cars can get though but these sort of infrastructure are generally
city only type stuff, ie cities are generally attempting to encourage less
cars.

These types of infrastructure as bikes are so efficient have huge
bandwidth, the one lane being used by bikes carries more traffic than the
other 2/3 lanes down the embankment for example.

>>> How will you convince the countless jurisdictions in America to spend the money
>>> on the installation of those special traffic lights? How will you justify the cost in
>>> loss of intersection efficiency, and in increased travel times and traffic congestion?
>>>
>> Doesn’t need to be every junction in my experience cyclists mostly follow
>> the same routes so infrastructure particularly if there is Bastard
>> junction.
>>
>> For myself going into centre, I go via one of the Royal Parks so traffic
>> lite cross the river via a town Center few back roads and LTN on to the
>> embankment...
>
> You've often described your very unusual route and facility. I'm not
> saying that there are not very unusual locations where weird
> "innovative" designs can help. But that's not what segregation advocates
> are claiming. The majority of bike fatalities now generate claims that
> "We need protected bike lanes NOW!" or (as you've said) "Paint stripes
> don't work!" They don't qualify by saying "We need protected bike lanes
> in _this_ block or on _that_ street." They seem to want them everywhere.
>
> It's nonsense. I've never needed one. With just a bit of knowledge and
> skill, a person can ride almost anywhere.
>

That’s isn’t my commute which is past Heathrow and uses parks and very old
cycleway as the road was intended to be a motorway, so the cycleway is 60+
years old.

Only modern bit is short section on one road where they have added some low
barriers ie that allow bikes/pedestrians to pass through but for most part
keep vehicles out, it’s better than before but life changing it isn’t!

Embankment and Richmond park is huge commuter route into london central, go
after dark in the winter to Richmond Park and can see bike lights all home
bound snaking off into the distance.

It has some good infrastructure on that route and some you’d avoid one just
after the park on the pavement crossing entrances to homes etc which is
occasionally repainted but isn’t used.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:14:29 +0200 schrieb Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de>:

>Am 26.10.2023 um 03:39 schrieb John B.:

[...]

>> Well, there certainly is no formal education of cyclists here but the
>> little Thai girl I've mentioned was certainly riding in a safe and
>> sensible manner so I assume that it is a matter of the parents or big
>> brothers and sisters telling the little ones how to act. Just as they
>> do with other thing.

>In Germany, 'riding a bicyclie in traffic' is a compulsory block in
>primary school at age 10 (even private schools cannot opt out); the
>lessons are typically administered by the local traffic police.

In principle, this is a good practice, because nowadays there are
unfortunately too many parents here who have mastered neither the
written nor the unwritten traffic rules. However, I think it's worth
mentioning that we taught both of our children to ride a bike before
they were even in elementary school, before the age of six. As expected,
the younger one learned it a bit faster than the older one.

I have mixed feelings about the actual quality of the schooling as far
as it is done by the local police. All too often on my commute, I have
observed bizarre behaviors such as a dozen students riding in a line on
the far right side of the road wearing helmets and high-visibility
vests, left arm extended wide for a long time, and then turning left at
the command of the accompanying police officer.

It's difficult, though. For some early birthday party, I organized a
bicycle ride. Some guests had absysmal bikes, other couldn't barely
balance their bike or shift gears and brake. On child, on the other
hand, was an artist wrt. handling his bike in comparison - but no
knowledge about rules or sensible behaviour.

So i guess it's good that we have that compulsory block, but your'e
better of as a parent by not needing any of what is presented there.


--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Thu, 26 Oct 2023 10:52:24 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>These types of infrastructure as bikes are so efficient have huge
>bandwidth, the one lane being used by bikes carries more traffic than the
>other 2/3 lanes down the embankment for example.

This is a dangerous argument. It is almost always used to further limit
the options the space available to bicyclists. Why should cyclists be
allowed to position themselves on the left-hand side of the
four-meter-wide lane and then turn left when they could also ride on a
narrow 80-centimeter lane on the right-hand side of the road and then
turn indirectly from there? Which far to often means mutating into a
pedestrian and then getting run over while sprinting across the road.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm trying to picture how a man who claims to be an engineer and hence trained in logical think would believe that he can take already limited roadspace away from the overwhelming percentage of road users.

[Lou Holtman]

What I see here is that whatever the children learned from their parents or at school they mostly ignore it when they reached a certain age. The smart phone appears the most important.

Lou

[AMuzi]

+1

[AMuzi]

All good points.

Mayors and staff love the image of 'doing something for
cyclists'; it's very positive political PR. They also know
the public works racket where larger project costs allow for
better kickbacks. And they understand that doing anything
well the first time means they can't bill to redo it. And
they know the #1 rule of government, "Once you solve the
problem, the money stops."

The other side of this, to which you allude, is that traffic
/frissons/ are abnormalities of human behavior. Even one of
our beloved company of RBT contributors eschews stop lights
fer chrissake. Humans have clever ways of circumventing
planners and their concrete or bollard or paint projects
(see 'Ride Report' yesterday on dysfunction on Chicago's
Lake Path).

Common traffic law is very sensible (e.g., 'Everyone travel
on this side, not that side') but humans are much less so in
aggregate and ignore complexity or artifice even more than
they do basic traffic rules

[AMuzi]

We used to practice that. Now unlicensed drivers are a
plague (moreso in stolen cars)

[Tom Kunich]

Because there are not just uninsured illegals but a criminal class that would be immediately exported back to their countries of origin hit and run has become pandemic. How can you run over pedestrians walking across with a green light and flee the scene and then the mass of illegals cry to not allow red light cameras while their own children are being killed by these criminals.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2023 6:52 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> A separate light phase only for cyclists "works" in that if everybody
>> obeys it, crashes are far less likely. But it doesn't "work" in that it
>> greatly reduces throughput for an intersection. People that could have
>> proceeded in perfect safety end up waiting unnecessarily. Or, as when I
>> rode through those in Stockholm a few years ago, most of the cyclists
>> simply ignored them and rode through their special red lights. Those
>> lights are unlikely to "work" for safety then!
>>
> Bandwidth of the junction as whole or just for cars? For cars yes I’m sure
> less cars can get though but these sort of infrastructure are generally
> city only type stuff, ie cities are generally attempting to encourage less
> cars.

For everyone!

A local example: Our pharmacy is at the major intersection closest to my
house. Since it's only about a quarter mile away, my wife and I walk
there frequently.

That intersection is a four-way, with at least two traffic lanes in each
direction. It's set up with four separate light phases. There are
pedestrian buttons for two crosswalks. We arrive, push the pedestrian
button, and wait and wait for up to four light phases. And motorists and
bicyclists have similar waits. The traffic backups are locally notorious.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2023 4:38 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> As for his comment regarding "education cannot occur without requiring
> a license?" I thought I was quite specific in saying "the feasible of
> licensing cyclists, i.e. ensuring that they are conversant with
> traffic laws"... or perhaps he so arrogant as to be suggesting that
> somehow his knowledge supercedes the existing traffic regulations and
> laws?
>
> In reading the above, perhaps I missed the point.

Yes, John, you have completely and thoroughly missed the point. You
disparaged the idea of educating cyclists by saying something like "But
when I proposed bicycle licenses, cyclists said 'No, no, no!'"

Education is not directed only toward licensing. People learn history,
poetry, gardening, Spanish, cooking, computer programming and countless
other things without acquiring licenses.

But you don't mock those efforts. You seem intent only on mocking
cycling education - despite repeatedly giving evidence for its need.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2023 10:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>> It's difficult, though. For some early birthday party, I organized a
>> bicycle ride. Some guests had absysmal bikes, other couldn't barely
>> balance their bike or shift gears and brake.

For many years I volunteered at various "bike rodeos." In the U.S.,
that's an occasional attempt at teaching kids _something_ about riding
bikes.

But it was very typical that I did no teaching. Why? Because the kids'
bikes had to be inspected before the kids could take part. I often spent
the entire "rodeo" time getting brakes to work, tightening loose
handlebars or saddles, stopping chains from skipping, even patching
tires. Understand, parents dropped kids off for a bike event with badly
malfunctioning bikes!

Honestly, the "rodeos" had fairly little value. First order of business
was usually to scare kids into ALWAYS wearing a helmet, which were
always required for attendance. (I'm sure most kids ignored that within
the next hour.) Next was teaching three hand signals. Last, the kids
would snake through a set of cones and come to a stop at a stop sign.
Actual training about riding in traffic was roughly zero.

I felt there was at least some benefit if we got them to understand they
must ride in the same direction as traffic, plus use lights at night.
But I remember one event when two parents were loudly yelling at the
volunteers that they would NEVER let their kid ride unless they faced
traffic!

Ah, America!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

It's just nuts.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/wgna/pages/122/attachments/original/1424222193/WG_road_diet_website.png?1424222193

(from typical: https://www.wgna.net/lincoln_road_diet )

[Tom Kunich]

I have a very hard time thinking that we can expect motorists to have vastly reduced facilities simply to allow a small part of the population (cyclists) to have more room. With normal bike lanes I have little trouble the way it is. The problem areas appears to be illegal aliens who are not licensed and not insured and believe that the car owns the road.