Bicycling is not Dangerous

[Jay Beattie]

So, the guy I've been riding with most lately -- and who was trying to
pile on miles to regain fitness after getting hit by a car and
breaking his collar bone earlier this year -- called me yesterday to
let me know he had broken his wrist in a fall. He was making a
transition from trail to road while riding his cross bike and hit a
super-slick patch of moss, needles, slime and the usual stuff one
finds under trees in Oregon. Down in a nano second -- no time for
Matrix Ninja (tm) stop motion crash avoidance technique. It was so
slippery, he had trouble getting his footing to stand up. I think for
at least the next six weeks, I'll be riding with my other good cycling
buddy who had been off his bike . . . recovering from a broken
wrist. I am going to propose legislation for mandatory wrist
braces.

-- Jay Beattie.

[DirtRoadie]

Well let's not get carried away.
The statistics clearly show that only a single wrist brace is
necessary as the chances of breaking both wrists are miniscule.
DR

[thirty-six]

Why not show them how to fall w'out attemptn to poke a hole in the
road?

[Duane Hébert]

But research shows that with the wearing of both wrist braces, there is
a significant reduction of head injuries, knee injuries and you're less
likely to spill your gatorade.

[Jeff Liebermann]

Bracers, not braces. Bracers are for protection. Braces are for
post-accident medical damage control.

That would look kinda cool. I guess the pointed studs are for added
traction:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wrist+bracers>
However, wrist bracers won't help as they are only useful after the
rider has lost control. A better approach would be to prevent the
initial slip and fall. I therefore suggest:

- Training wheels or skis to provide stability while riding through
slime. These need not be permanently deployed. They could be spring
loaded and activated by when the front and rear wheels are turning
different speeds (i.e. ABS for bicycles).

- A cow catcher attachment for the front wheel. It could be two push
brooms oriented to a point, which will push the road slime and debris
away from the front wheel. Some additional effort might be needed to
compensate for the added friction, but that's a small price to pay for
the added safety.

- Gyro stabilization. This would be a large diameter flywheel mounted
horizontally on the rear bike rack. Spin stabilization will keep the
bicycle upright as it plows through the road slime. As in a small
airplane, when things go awry, just let go of the yoke and let the
airplane stabilize itself. The same idea might work with a gyro
stabilized bicycle.

- Slick tires and rocket assist. Applying extra power will allow the
tires to float over the road slime. Smooth tires will assist this
effect by hydroplaning over the top of the road slime. Since it is
unlikely that the rider can respond sufficiently fast, some form of
ABS skid detection (different wheel speeds) would activate the rocket
assist.

- Replace bicycle with a tricycle. A three point base is far more
stable than two point. However, there's still a danger of going into
a flat spin, which can somewhat be reduced by adding fins and a
vertical stabilizer to the tricycle.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Peter Cole]

I'm convinced that my radical mountain biking skills have saved my wrists and collar bones many times on the road, but then again I have broken my ribs twice mountain biking.



--
Android Usenet Reader
http://android.newsgroupstats.hk

[Duane Hébert]

Last time I fell, I saved my wrist by separating my shoulder. Was sort
of a football type tuck. Didn't scratch the bike though.

[Lou Holtman]

Same happened to me some weeks ago also from dirt to street on my crossbike on wet cobblestones. To much pressure in my tires. I'm still experimenting with the pressure in my crosstires. What I don't understand why people break their wrists in such I sudden situation. My hands are still on my handlebar/shifter, no time to put them somewhere else, my feet still clipped in so I always fall on my shoulder and hip. Some road rash scratched shifter that is all. Continued my ride.

Lou

[Duane Hébert]

On 11/15/2012 03:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Same happened to me some weeks ago also from dirt to street on my crossbike on wet cobblestones. To much pressure in my tires. I'm still experimenting with the pressure in my crosstires. What I don't understand why people break their wrists in such I sudden situation. My hands are still on my handlebar/shifter, no time to put them somewhere else, my feet still clipped in so I always fall on my shoulder and hip. Some road rash scratched shifter that is all. Continued my ride.
>
> Lou
>

When I have my fall, I seemed to have enough time to think about putting
out my hand but didn't. But I could sort of feel the bike going over as
I hit a curb. Having the bike slide out from under me would probably
have been too quick to think about it.

[frkr...@gmail.com]

I've hardly ridden off-road in your area. But based on the 6" slugs I've seen on hikes, I think I'd be on the lookout for slippery stuff.

If you have any cyclist friends who don't crash, perhaps you should ride with them instead?

- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

That last comment wasn't called for Frank. Sometimes people do crash through no real fault of their own.

Back in the 1980's when I was at a bicycle racing training camp we were taught how to fall without reflexively putting a hand down to break the fall. This training was done on a grassy field.

Cheers

[thirty-six]

On 15 Nov, 17:52, "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:

you have a few spare.

[thirty-six]

On 15 Nov, 20:08, Lou Holtman <lou.holt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Same happened to me some weeks ago also from dirt to street on my crossbike on wet cobblestones. To much pressure in my tires. I'm still experimenting with the pressure in my crosstires. What I don't understand why people break their wrists in such I sudden situation.

Fear. It's likely they've let go of the bar in a recoverable
position, which has so contributed to their fall. It helps to break a
wrist when a child and the lesson is learned not to poke holes in
roads or rocks. You'd be stupid to walk over slimey rocks at the
shore without a pole or stick, the unnatural environment of a road
also requires some special preparation. First, learn to fall from
standing, then learn to fall from a bike (on soft turf) without
making holes. Lastly, learn how not to fall.

>My hands are still on my handlebar/shifter, no time to put them somewhere else, my feet still clipped in so I always fall on my shoulder and hip. Some road rash scratched shifter that is all. Continued my ride.

Protect your body by keeping it out of acidosis. Forget the pastry
and bread, keep the meat flesh at a minimum (or none) and gorge on as
much fruit as you can tolerate. For your last meal f the day, after
taking in all the fruit, you can eat vegetables with unrefined sea-
salt. Leaves and fat are good too and gorging on these for at least
one day a week will also help maintain a disease-free body, a body
less susceptible to injury and faster healing following injury.

If you dont poop when you first get up, drink spring water, maybe a
pint. Go back to your warm bed and give your body time and thing
should start a-stirring. If nothing occurs in 40 minutes, eat fruit.
Only after pooping in the morning should you eat flesh.

Look after your body and keep those wheels turning.

[thirty-six]

Clubs should promote grass-track racing especially for juveniles and
juniors.

[Graham]

"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message news:13301cb2-e84d-46ed...@q5g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...

Agreed. My club is trying to go down the BMX track route but even though we have funding we are struggling against the health and safety brigade in the local authority.

Risk appreciation and bike handling skills are best developed whilst young when crashing off road is all part of the fun!!!!

Graham.

[datakoll]

on a grassy field.

pussy camp

[Wes Groleau]

On 11-15-2012 11:29, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> - Gyro stabilization. This would be a large diameter flywheel mounted
> horizontally on the rear bike rack. Spin stabilization will keep the

Just increase the mass of the rims by ten kilograms each.

> - Replace bicycle with a tricycle. A three point base is far more
> stable than two point. However, there's still a danger of going into

OTOH (voice of experience) it can't lean into a turn, hence more likely
to flip toward the outside of the turn.

It also can't remain upright when downhill is to the left or right and
tends to tip in that situation.

--
Wes Groleau

Armchair Activism: http://www.breakthechain.org/armchair.html

[Dan O]

On Nov 15, 6:26 pm, Wes Groleau <Groleau+n...@FreeShell.org> wrote:
> On 11-15-2012 11:29, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> > - Gyro stabilization. This would be a large diameter flywheel mounted
> > horizontally on the rear bike rack. Spin stabilization will keep the
>
> Just increase the mass of the rims by ten kilograms each.
>
> > - Replace bicycle with a tricycle. A three point base is far more
> > stable than two point. However, there's still a danger of going into
>
> OTOH (voice of experience) it can't lean into a turn, hence more likely
> to flip toward the outside of the turn.
>
> It also can't remain upright when downhill is to the left or right and
> tends to tip in that situation.
>

Extra inertia makes matters worse (if and) when you do crash.

[Dan O]

On Nov 15, 6:41 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@verizon.net> considered Thu, 15 Nov 2012
> 12:52:26 -0500 the perfect time to write:

> For me, I think Judo helped me through the youthful exuberances, and I
> even managed never to get injured doing it.
>
> Knowing how to fall safely is vastly under-rated these days.

Frank: Crashing? I'm happy to live without that experience.
Fred... er, Dan: I'm not so sure I would be (experience being what it
is)

... and there being no substitute.

[thirty-six]

On 15 Nov, 22:37, "Graham" <h2gt2g42-micenewgro...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:13301cb2-e84d-46ed...@q5g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...

>
> On 15 Nov, 20:55, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pat...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, November 15, 2012 3:48:27 PM UTC-5, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:38:23 AM UTC-5, Jay Beattie wrote:
> >Clubs should promote grass-track racing especially for juveniles and
>
> juniors.
>
> Agreed. My club is trying to go down the BMX track route but even though we have funding we are struggling against the health and safety brigade in the local authority.

They can do nothing to stop you if there is no track or equipment.
All you need is the contestants to pile up their clothing/coats at
each turn of the oval 'track'.in the public park. With 15yds or so
between ends they arn't going to get up enough speed to break anything
(important) but with a bit of moisture, one hopes they are going to
fall a bit. If there are no fallers, spread the ends for the next
race and get some bonus laps in to encourage competitiveness. Have a
bucket of fruit and a magic sponge to hand. If any break their necks,
some micorpore tape and a cup of cider will fix them up for the next
race.

Go through machine inspection and issuing riders numbers with two
minute countdowns to race start announcing rider names/pseudonyms,
numbers and colours if you like. Yeah, different coloured tabards
with numbers may help create team identities and promote competition.
probably 4 teams is ideal if you can get enough competitors. You'll
have to make a quick assessment of abilty to balance the teams and to
handicap appropriately.

Of course this is thinking it too deep and could possibly get the
"organiser" in "trouble", far better to make it happen on the spur of
the moment, then no f+++er can talk you out of it.

>
> Risk appreciation and bike handling skills are best developed whilst young when crashing off road is all part of the fun!!!!

It's better when bones bend, and while this cannot be guaranteed, it
is far more likely with pre-teens.

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 9:26:45 PM UTC-5, Wes Groleau wrote:
>
>
> > - Replace bicycle with a tricycle. A three point base is far more
>
> > stable than two point. However, there's still a danger of going into
>
>
>
> OTOH (voice of experience) it can't lean into a turn, hence more likely
>
> to flip toward the outside of the turn.
>
>
>
> It also can't remain upright when downhill is to the left or right and
>
> tends to tip in that situation.

I recall being at one bike rally a few decades ago, where a guy let me try his high-performance upright trike. IIRC, it was custom built, essentially a racing ten speed with two rear wheels.

I found riding it to be _very_ unsettling! There's a tremendous difference between the swooping, almost flying turn of a bicycle, and the very manual steering, contorting, twisting & leaning to turn a trike.

I guess a person would get used to it, though. The owner obviously loved the trike.

- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 16/11/12 07:55, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

> Back in the 1980's when I was at a bicycle racing training camp we
> were taught how to fall without reflexively putting a hand down to
> break the fall. This training was done on a grassy field.
>

It's a good idea. Probably something more people should do. And who
knows, there may be a reduction in deaths from falling out of bed as a
result ;-)

It may not be what's taught, but putting a hand out can help direct the
roll, and as long as the hand/arm, etc., is not rigid, it tends to fold
underneath anyhow.

Sometimes, you go down like greased lightning and you just find yourself
dazed and confused...

--
JS.

[Dan O]

When I was still an amateur motorcycle racer (but pretty swift on two
wheels), I *had* to try out the three-wheelers (very first - what do
they call 'em now? ATV's? Back then these were a novelty - very
first Hondas) at the small town fair. I hopped on (don't think there
were helmets involved), took off and rode right off the end of the
first turn.

[Peter Van Buren]

Nah. Cyclists should just lift weights. Pump some iron and build up
that bone density. I may not be as fast as I could be up hills, but I
am very proud of the spectacular wipeouts I have had without breaking
any bones... I attribute that to years of weight training when I was
younger. There are other benefits too. Chicks dig muscles, you can
chuck the tire levers from your tool kit (just rip those tires off the
rim), sleeveless jerseys will look good, and over torquing stuff
becomes a snap....

Peter.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:38:23 -0800 (PST), Jay Beattie
<jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:

>So, the guy I've been riding with most lately -- and who was trying to
>pile on miles to regain fitness after getting hit by a car and

>breaking his collar bone earlier this year (...)

Perhaps a full body bicycle helmet might help:
<http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nu5c-VGxWeA/TPhl5GKiVBI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/8Rg3wNGN5CA/s640/STonBikes.JPG>

[Duane Hébert]

On 11/15/2012 09:40 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
<snip>

> Knowing how to fall safely is vastly under-rated these days.

+1

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 2:41:22 AM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 07:38:23 -0800 (PST), Jay Beattie
>
> <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >So, the guy I've been riding with most lately -- and who was trying to
>
> >pile on miles to regain fitness after getting hit by a car and
>
> >breaking his collar bone earlier this year (...)
>
>
>
> Perhaps a full body bicycle helmet might help:
>
> <http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nu5c-VGxWeA/TPhl5GKiVBI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/8Rg3wNGN5CA/s640/STonBikes.JPG>

Wow. Don't let Thompson & Rivara test those.

"Our case-control study of two self-selected Star Wars fans riding folding bicycles showed that Storm Trooper armor reduced skinned knees by 85%. We therefore recommend making such armor mandatory for all bicyclists."

- Frank Krygowski

[thirty-six]

On 16 Nov, 02:41, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_c...@verizon.net> considered Thu, 15 Nov 2012
> 12:52:26 -0500 the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> For me, I think Judo helped me through the youthful exuberances, and I
> even managed never to get injured doing it.
>

> Knowing how to fall safely is vastly under-rated these days.

hmm, I had more practice in falling, playing football, netball, hockey
and basketball than I did with judo. All of these I fell much more
than I ever have riding a bike.yet none of them was it considered that
there may be a hint of a possibility that any protective headgear
could possibly have been beneficial. I do faintly remember running
into someone and our heads banging together possibly at a closing
speed of 20-30mph. Nothing broken but a throbbing headache endured
for 3hours or so..

[thirty-six]

On 16 Nov, 05:55, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16/11/12 07:55, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> > Back in the 1980's when I was at a bicycle racing training camp we
> > were taught how to fall without reflexively putting a hand down to
> > break the fall. This training was done on a grassy field.
>
> It's a good idea.  Probably something more people should do.  And who
> knows, there may be a reduction in deaths from falling out of bed as a
> result ;-)

or breaking a collar-bone as my uncle did.

>
> It may not be what's taught, but putting a hand out can help direct the
> roll, and as long as the hand/arm, etc., is not rigid, it tends to fold
> underneath anyhow.

bent elbow and slap down.

>
> Sometimes, you go down like greased lightning and you just find yourself
> dazed and confused...

best not use slick tyres, whether or not you have been indoctrinated
with "bike tyres can't hydroplane", "slick is cool".

[Duane Hébert]

I would say football, at least american football where I learned to
catch a ball and hold on to it, falling on my shoulder as my legs were
taken out below me. I would not do that without a helmet though. Keeps
the cleats out of your head.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

Many, most people do not know how to fall on a bicycle. There is a technique to falling and not getting too injured. As you state, keep your hands on the bars. DO NOT stick your hand out to catch yourself. Just results in a broken wrist or arm. DO NOT unclip your feet from the pedals. Sticking your foot out usually results in a broken ankle or twisted knee. I suppose there are instances where you can stick your foot out and form a tripod stance with the two wheels and slide sideways. The goal when falling is to stay as compact as possible and within the perimeter of the bike itself. Stick nothing out.

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 16, 2012 3:32:32 PM UTC-5, Phil W Lee wrote:
>
>
> If you want something /really/ interesting, try a motorcycle and
>
> sidecar outfit.
>
> I know of no other vehicle that is /expected/ to turn on slowing or
>
> accelerating (in opposite directions) and /requires/ left or right
>
> hand bends to be taken accelerating (if turning towards the sidecar)
>
> or slowing (if turning away from it).
>
> If you arrive at a turn away from the "chair" too fast, you can scrub
>
> off some speed by drifting, but if you arrive at a turn towards the
>
> chair at too high a speed, you /will/ turn it over - you cannot brake
>
> and turn towards the chair simultaneously.
>
> All these characteristics can be limited, with careful design, but
>
> never completely eliminated.
>
>
>
> Amazingly, they have an excellent safety record, compared to solo
>
> motorcycles.

I've heard and read that sidecar rigs are very tricky to handle. I've never tried one, though.

I'm on a certain motorcycle email list, and today's digest was talking about safety. One poster said that motorcycle fatalities are heavy biased toward the "speedmonkeys, druggies, drunks and thrill-seekers." And a researcher friend of mine has claimed that newbies should be added to that list; supposedly, the crash rate goes way down for people that have ridden for at least several years.

In any case, I doubt that speedmonkeys, druggies, drunks, thrill-seekers or newbies opt for sidecar rigs. I'd bet they naturally attract more cautious riders.

- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

On Nov 16, 11:47 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"

<russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 2:08:01 PM UTC-6, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Same happened to me some weeks ago also from dirt to street on my crossbike on wet cobblestones. To much pressure in my tires. I'm still experimenting with the pressure in my crosstires. What I don't understand why people break their wrists in such I sudden situation. My hands are still on my handlebar/shifter, no time to put them somewhere else, my feet still clipped in so I always fall on my shoulder and hip. Some road rash scratched shifter that is all. Continued my ride.
>

> Many, most people do not know how to fall on a bicycle. There is a technique to falling and not getting too injured. As you state, keep your hands on the bars. DO NOT stick your hand out to catch yourself. Just results in a broken wrist or arm.
>

Hmmm... (I've never broken a wrist or arm.)

> DO NOT unclip your feet from the pedals. Sticking your foot out usually results in a broken ankle or twisted knee.
>

Hmmm... (I've never broken an ankle; *might* have twisted my knee, but
not, I think, in the injurious sense.)

> I suppose there are instances where you can stick your foot out and form a tripod stance with the two wheels and slide sideways.
>

Well, yeah, but if you're good you can slide sideways clipped in, and
even if you're not that good the foot doesn't have ot be on the ground
- just "sticking out" suffices as a counterweight. Ideally it is
easiest of all if, yes, you can touch the ground - but it doesn't
support to hold you up - any significant weight on it yanks the foot
away from the rest of you, unless on something *really* slippery and
then your tripod collapses anyway.

> The goal when falling is to stay as compact as possible and within the perimeter of the bike itself.
>

That's a decent notion as a loose guideline, but not optimum in every
situation.

> Stick nothing out.
>

That's even better as a general guideline :-)

[Dan O]

I played tons and tons of (American) football as kid - most of it with
no helmet. It does teach you how to "fall" - and to take a licking -
but not really how to "crash".

[Duane Hébert]

Depends on which position I guess. As a receiver, having your feet
taken out from under you seems very similar to having your bike slide.

[Wes Groleau]

On 11-16-2012 14:47, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Many, most people do not know how to fall on a bicycle. There is a technique to falling and not getting too injured. As you state, keep your hands on the bars. DO NOT stick your hand out to catch yourself. Just results in a broken wrist or arm. DO NOT unclip your feet from the pedals. Sticking your foot out usually results in a broken ankle or twisted knee. I suppose there are instances where you can stick your foot out and form a tripod stance with the two wheels and slide sideways. The goal when falling is to stay as compact as possible and within the perimeter of the bike itself. Stick nothing out.

None of my crashes have broken any bones. Two of them removed a lot of
skin and one of them totaled the bicycle without injuring me.

--
Wes Groleau

What kind of smiley is C:\ ?

[Wes Groleau]

On 11-16-2012 00:55, James wrote:
> It may not be what's taught, but putting a hand out can help direct the
> roll, and as long as the hand/arm, etc., is not rigid, it tends to fold
> underneath anyhow.

In theater, we learned how to distribute the impact, knees, hips, hand,
elbow, shoulder. Of course a fall in the theater is planned, which is
a lot different from "Surprise!!" on the road.

--
Wes Groleau

“What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing;
it also depends on what kind of person you are.”
-- C.S.Lewis

[Wes Groleau]

On 11-16-2012 01:20, Peter Van Buren wrote:
> younger. There are other benefits too. Chicks dig muscles, you can
> chuck the tire levers from your tool kit (just rip those tires off the

I don't have any visible muscles for chicks to dig, but I've not used a
tool on a tire since before high school.

> rim), sleeveless jerseys will look good, and over torquing stuff
> becomes a snap....

Yeah, I've snapped a few bolt heads.

--
Wes Groleau

Don't get even — get odd!

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:32:29 +0000, Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>

wrote:

>If you want something /really/ interesting, try a motorcycle and
>sidecar outfit.

I did that once. We drove 200 miles around the big island in Hawaii
in one. I spent most of the ride in the sidecar. The only problem
was that the sidecar didn't have a working shock absorber, so every
bump threatened to eject the passenger (me). The driver was quite
experienced with the sidecar motorcycle and showed me a few tricks
that kept me out of trouble. It seemed quite safe to me (except for
getting a major sunburn).

[Sepp Ruf]

thirty-six:

> Protect your body by keeping it out of acidosis. Forget the pastry

...as well as those fluid mixtures of phosphoric, benzoic,
fluorosilicic or citric acids...

> and bread, keep the meat flesh at a minimum (or none) and gorge on as
> much fruit as you can tolerate. For your last meal of the day, after
> taking in all the fruit, you can eat vegetables with unrefined sea-
> salt. Leaves and fat are good too and gorging on these for at least
> one day a week will also help maintain a disease-free body, a body
> less susceptible to injury and faster healing following injury.

And drop the sun-screen mania for half an hour of daily sun
exposure.

But fruit all day? hmmm, and you still are on your second set of teeth?

At least beer and wine are in the fruit and vegetable categories,
right? :-)

[thirty-six]

On 17 Nov, 03:44, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com considered Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:15:44 -0800 (PST)

> the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> If they aren't more cautious to start with, the first nearside bend
> will cure them :)

so you mean 17000 rpm not 19000 with WOT? So what do they do, use the
front brake through a nearside turn?

>
> But if you've ever seen them racing, you'd swear they are all utterly
> stark raving bonkers!

They mostly must enjoy it, perhaps not so at the top of the game where
if you are not constantly trying for better than you are, you wont be
competitive.

[thirty-six]

On 17 Nov, 03:48, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Duane Hébert <duane.heb...@group-upc.com> considered Fri, 16 Nov 2012

> In Rugby football, the players are expected to toughen up, and not be
> upset by such minor inconveniences.
> They only allow a /temporary/ substitution to be made for stitches to
> be inserted.

Rugby and fell-running are possibly comparable in the required
toughness one needs to excel in competitive cycling. One also needs
to learn and apply specific skills in cycling which are unnatural and
confusing to the beginner. This may favour the weedier but skilled
rider in the beginning while the tough rider beats himself to death
for years. Getting the naturally tough rider to accept that he is a
winner if only he took it mostly easy in training and recovery is
possibly the biggest hurdle to overcome.

[AMuzi]

Grain dried on peat fires has some potential as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[thirty-six]

On 17 Nov, 13:55, Sepp Ruf <inq...@Safe-mail.net> wrote:
> thirty-six:
>
> > Protect your body by keeping it out of acidosis.  Forget the pastry
>
> ...as well as those fluid mixtures of phosphoric, benzoic,
> fluorosilicic or citric acids..

Yep. Actually enjoyed some honest cloudy lemonade and traditional
recipe Dandelion and Burdock (Barrs). The D&B certainly refreshed the
parts other concoctions cannot reach and I got quite a warming. The
falvourngs being the natural herbal extracts rather than their
synthetic simulations (which I guess came in around 1979, cos that's
when I remember It didn't taste like it did anymore and stopped
bothering).

.
>
> > and bread, keep the meat flesh at a minimum (or none)  and gorge on as
> > much fruit as you can tolerate. For your last meal of the day, after
> > taking in all the fruit, you can eat vegetables with unrefined sea-
> > salt.  Leaves and fat are good too and gorging on these for at least
> > one day a week will also help maintain a disease-free body, a body
> > less susceptible to injury and faster healing following injury.
>
> And drop the sun-screen mania for half an hour of daily sun
> exposure.

Never used the stuff, although I got very upset when Mum got it into
her head that my pink skin was somehow wrong and smeared me with a
chilling concoction. I stayed (ran) away from the stuff from then on
and later frowned upon other cyclists who smeared the toxic gunge upon
themselves. The sun energises the skin, if it goes sore, that's just
one's skin attempting to push out the toxins (possibly washing
detergent) and more oiliness in the skin is required to assist that.
Eat more fruit and meat fat and have a good coffee and the expulsion
of toxins is aided.

>
> But fruit all day? hmmm, and you still are on your second set of teeth?

It's chronic systemic acidosis which demineralises tooth and bone.
This "fruit acid is dangerous" is more fear-factory bullshit. Don't
drink juice, eat fruit or possibly fruit smoothies.

It's as well to aim for at least 100g of fruit per day for every 10kg
body weight for about 3 weeks and see where you go after that. It's
1% of body weight per day. eggs eaten raw, leaves buttered and
salted, soft organ meats and blood eaten mostly freely, meat flesh,
with loads of fat, restricted to breakfast, eaten only when other
stresses are low (check H.R on rising and without pains)

>
> At least beer and wine are in the fruit and vegetable categories,
> right? :-)

sort of, in moderation. :-) Good wine and yeasty, low condition
(natural carbonation) ale made purely from barley-malt do not hurt.
Full-malt english ale is an easy way to maintain decent magnesium
levels. Don't go overboard, two or three pints of good live ale per
day is possibly ideal for some but not others. O like Thwaites bottle-
conditioned offering, including Tavern porter and Old Dan.

I'm also very partial to port-wine, Sandeman's Signature used to be my
common tipple but I don't now see it so look for offers on any LBV
port. Anything up to a 1/4 bottle seems to promote increasing health
for me, but I more have that on a weekly basis.

One needs more restraint with whisky and rum and the key again is to
go for quality, choose either an unfiltered or at least non-chill-
filtered scotch to be assured of a quality product and take it
slowly with a splash of water.

[thirty-six]

On 17 Nov, 02:53, Wes Groleau <Groleau+n...@FreeShell.org> wrote:

Ever think of taking it to a professional level? Riders that bounce
are a real asset that can be banked on.

[thirty-six]

On 17 Nov, 02:56, Wes Groleau <Groleau+n...@FreeShell.org> wrote:
> On 11-16-2012 00:55, James wrote:
>
> > It may not be what's taught, but putting a hand out can help direct the
> > roll, and as long as the hand/arm, etc., is not rigid, it tends to fold
> > underneath anyhow.
>
> In theater, we learned how to distribute the impact, knees, hips, hand,
> elbow, shoulder.  Of course a fall in the theater is planned, which is
> a lot different from "Surprise!!" on the road.
>

i've seen many go down in front which looked planned, there's usually
warnings, the last could be 10 seconds from the actual entanglement,
slide or trip in a hole.

[davethedave]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:15:44 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

<snip>

>> Amazingly, they have an excellent safety record, compared to solo
>>
>> motorcycles.
>
> I've heard and read that sidecar rigs are very tricky to handle. I've
> never tried one, though.

The main problem is that people coming from a motorcycles are used to
counter-steering (often unknowingly) to produce an angle of lean on the
bike.

To turn right you would turn the bars left to lean the bike and to turn
left you move the bars right.

When you add a third wheel the counter steering does not function to lean
the bike into the corner but steers the sidecar outfit into the
landscape. Resulting in much hilarity and plucking of tree bits from
clothing.
--
davethedave

[Jay Beattie]

The subject of the original post is actually a motorcycle racer and
part-time professional instructor (among other things -- lot's of
spare time when you don't have kids). We chat a lot about high-powered
motorcycling while riding our low-powered bicycles. Anyway, it sounds
more like mountain biking where drifting and zero traction don't spell
disaster, and you can apply power to steer -- it would take me a while
to get used to this alternate universe.

-- Jay Beattie.

[davethedave]

Application of power or engine braking to steer a vehicle is not an
unheard of nor complex thing. Not enough power gives you understeer. Too
much power, oversteer. It's not, frankly, rocket science.

The problem with the switch from motorcycles to sidecars is not drifting
or zero traction it's the change in physics involved in the steering of
two vehicles which have exactly the same controls but a completely
different response to user input.

Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.

This is like a cycle steering system, whether you like it or not. Whether
you understand it or not. I will guarantee that you turn the bars left to
go right, whether you notice or not. On a bicycle the input is very
small. On a motorcycle at speed it often needs to be a much more positive
effort to lean the bike.

A boffin explains.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgUOOwnZcDU

This is all great and good for a bike. However once you have deeply
ingrained the turn left to go right behaviour into the muscle memory.
When you then get on a sidecar equipped bike it all gets a bit "Eeeek!
trees." because you don't want to induce lean to get round he corner. You
just want to point it in the direction you want to go in. A sidecar
equipped motorcycle just goes where the bars are pointed in a very un-
bike like manner often catching people out.
--
davethedave

[thirty-six]

On 17 Nov, 21:58, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> considered Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:02:34 -0600

> the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> But the potential takes a few years to realise :)

Seen a few youtubers who filter and age their spirit in a few weeks.
Oak twists are used to maximise the transference with wood and I guess
the prime requirement is in taking a smaller heart to begin with. A
few drops of commercial glycerine and maple syrup are also said to
help balance out a whisky.

[thirty-six]

home-made caramel is also thought to bring good effect.

[datakoll]

DOWNHILL CARGO BIKE RACE would be inter resting.

I had the exellent good fortune to watch a sidecar race back when $$$ was cheap as a prelim to uh ? a Continental/F5000 race with USAC people and the SHADOW ect...Schecter may have been there...

At Road Atlanta before twerps cut its balls off the back straight.

LO a thunderstorm hit when the SC came out and it was chaos.

The rigs had what Lee suggests, an unberming knack for radical direction changes mid corner...like SC would enter turn in slide then whinnnnnggggg do a 90 straight into th earthen wall..whoa indeed.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:00:20 -0800, Jay Beattie wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 17, 10:10 am, davethedave <davedfoster...@gmail.com> wrote:

Snipped

>
> Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.
>

Snipped
>
> davethedave

Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Cheers

[James]

On 18/11/12 11:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:
>> Imagine a car where you turn the wheel left and you go right.
>>
>

> Can;t imagine a car with such steering but some old passenger ships
> used to have such a system. Sometimes that system did lead to
> disaster. RMS Titanic in April, 1912 was one such vessel.

Most boats with a tiller steer by pushing the tiller away from the
direction of turn.

But returning to bicycles, the push left to turn right is only a
momentary thing. Once the CG is moving right, you have to steer right
or fall off, that is unless you're counter steering and have the back
end way out, Dan O style ;-)

--
JS

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:28:00 PM UTC-5, davethedave wrote:

That sounds like a very good explanation of what I was experiencing on that guy's racing upright trike. I didn't ride it long enough to analyze it; I just remembering thinking "This thing doesn't handle right, it seems very twitchy, almost unstable!"

- Frank Krygowski

[frkr...@gmail.com]

There's always this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxd7HXrEsKc
Apparently, it's really difficult until you get the hang of it!

- Frank Krygowski

[DirtRoadie]

Why the exclamation point?
But at least you are talking tech. Remember? The name of the group?
That's a refreshing change.
Why do you suspect it was unstable?
A number of years ago I had the opportunity to pilot a prototype
vehicle similar to the easily found GM "Lean Machine."
A creative developer, but a non-cyclist.
Three wheels with a two-wheeled "stable" axle, and a chassis that
tilted with the remaining wheel.
The prototype was an unpowered "downhill only" device that I took
down a two mile pitch which was only gravel back then.
That stretch is now paved and this year was used during the USA Pro
Challenge.
Anyhow, the device was quite controllable, kinda' fun. I don't believe
I had any particular criticism to convey to the developer (sadly, now
deceased).
DR

[Wes Groleau]

Ha! Almost seemed like a bounce that one time. I was momentarily
distracted and suddenly realized I was about to rub my right thigh on a
parked flatbed truck. Having no time to plan a response, I just
instinctively swerved.

Next thing I knew, I was on my feet somewhere else. Turned around and
saw my bike blocking traffic about twenty feet away. Ran back, grabbed
it and tried to get it out of the street. It resisted. Then I noticed
the fork was bent, one side of the axle was popped out.

Pondering the evidence afterward, I deduce that the flipping of the bike
caused me to spin in the air. I hit the pavement on the upper part of
my back, but the momentum rolled me right up onto my feet instead of
injuring my back.

None of this had to do with any skill or training, just happened to have
God, angels, and/or Newtonian mechanics helping me out.

--
Wes Groleau

“Ideas are more powerful than guns,
We would not let our enemies have guns;
why should we let them have ideas?”
— Jozef Stalin

[Dan O]

At the fair a couple of years ago these guys had an attraction called
the "Crazy Bike" (something like that) - just a BMX bike with an extra
linkage in the stem that reversed the pivoting relationship between
handlebars and front wheel (could also have included a ratio change,
but appeared to be 1:1). They were charging $5 a try to ride it a
short distance between the lines, offering a $100 prize to anyone who
could do it without dabbing a foot.

Of course the guy running the attraction could do it. Proud as I am
of my bike riding ability, I didn't fall for it (literally or
figuratively :-) because I don't like public humiliation, and it was
apparent to me that riding this thing would require practiced
suspension of the ingrained "instinct" that comprises my bike riding
skill (well remembering that other fair years ago when I had
confidently hopped on the three-wheel "ATV" and ran it right off the
end of the first turn).

[Dan O]

Except that he hath forsaken your bike, apparently.

[Dan O]

Is that the "Crazy Bike"? (No Adobe Flash Player to watch the video.)

[James]

I wonder what would happen if you rode no hands. Would the bars move
the wrong direction when you lean the bike, or not?

Curious.

--
JS.

[James]

From your description previously, it looks like the same or similar.

--
JS.

[frkr...@gmail.com]

Yep, same design. Another YouTube showed a British guy trying to get passers-by to take the bet you described. No takers, at least not in the part I watched.

- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

On Nov 18, 5:38 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com considered Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:40:06 -0800 (PST)

> the perfect time to write:
>
>
>

> 1. Cross arms, so that left holds right handgrip and vice-versa.
> 2. Ride bike.
> 3. Accept money :)

I considered that; didn't think it would work (for me).

I think what might have worked was no hands - which I can do from just
about a standing start on my own bike, but I was completely unfamiliar
with the bike, they had an incline at the start, and I don't recall
for sure but think they may have prohibited that trick.

(For that matter I heard later - don't know if it's true - that
somebody rode it and they stiffed him the prize. Would've been worth
it just ot show off; wasn't worth the practically guaranteed failure
for me to try in front of everybody.)

[Dan O]

On Nov 15, 7:38 am, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> So, the guy I've been riding with most lately -- and who was trying to
> pile on miles to regain fitness after getting hit by a car and
> breaking his collar bone earlier this year -- called me yesterday to
> let me know he had broken his wrist in a fall. He was making a
> transition from trail to road while riding his cross bike and hit a
> super-slick patch of moss, needles, slime and the usual stuff one
> finds under trees in Oregon. Down in a nano second -- no time for
> Matrix Ninja (tm) stop motion crash avoidance technique. It was so
> slippery, he had trouble getting his footing to stand up. I think for
> at least the next six weeks, I'll be riding with my other good cycling
> buddy who had been off his bike . . . recovering from a broken
> wrist. I am going to propose legislation for mandatory wrist
> braces.
>

One of my kids subscribes to "Cat Fancy" magazine. (Tom, how are your
kitties doing?) I don't care for the magazine much because, for one
thing, it doesn't seem to inform of anything that people who have
lived with cats a long time don't already know, and it's full of ads
for breeders when there are too many cats living on the streets, but
there is one - what do they call it - pivotal issue: The editorial
viewpoint is firmly for keeping pet cats indoors - for their health
and safety.

Now I know this sounds horrendously OT, but bear with me (if you've
gotten this far). I'm talking about risk / reward.

Bicycling *can* be very, very safe - the risk practically vanishingly
small - negligible. But that's no way to live (for me, anyway).

Yes, keeping cats indoors reduces exposure to risks, but as anyone who
has lived with cats knows, they *want* to go outside, and when they
get out there, they live life so much more fully it's ridiculous to
think they can have a full life exclusively indoors.

I cannot constrain my bicycling to minimizing every risk. I *can*
undertake the risks with due care (heightened situational awareness to
avoid problems but cognizant that stuff happens - that it's part and
parcel of living life to the fullest.

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 12:01:23 PM UTC-5, Dan O wrote:
>
>
> Bicycling *can* be very, very safe - the risk practically vanishingly
>
> small - negligible. But that's no way to live (for me, anyway).
>
>
>
> Yes, keeping cats indoors reduces exposure to risks, but as anyone who
>
> has lived with cats knows, they *want* to go outside, and when they
>
> get out there, they live life so much more fully it's ridiculous to
>
> think they can have a full life exclusively indoors.
>
>
>
> I cannot constrain my bicycling to minimizing every risk. I *can*
>
> undertake the risks with due care (heightened situational awareness to
>
> avoid problems but cognizant that stuff happens - that it's part and
>
> parcel of living life to the fullest.

Let me take advantage of an opportunity to partially agree with you.

Others I'm close to disagree, but I do think the life of an indoor cat is boring and relatively unfulfilled. I'm sure that every cat given the choice would prefer to be allowed out, as well as in. Yes, there's some risk, but I'm sure even the cats realize that. As with helicopter parents, I think owners of indoor cats might be doing their charges net harm - psychologically, if not physically.

And I'm fine with people taking on risk for their own entertainment. Skiing, radical mountain biking, skydiving, etc. are all fine with me. I've certainly tired of people implying it was too dangerous for me to ride my bike to work, or across the island, state, country, continent - take your pick. Much of what people worry about is quite safe. And even if it's not: if we permit totally sedentary lifestyles and eating to obesity, we shouldn't begrudge some adventurous movement.

I think one problem I have is with people who counsel cyclists to ride in chaotic ways that they _think_ are safer, but have been clearly shown to be much more dangerous. That seems either ignorant or dishonest. The classic would be to ride facing traffic, but there are many others - including sudden transitions from street to sidewalk and back. Another problem is with people who revel in shocking cagers, making surprise messenger-style moves to gain fleeting advantage in traffic, because they think _they_ shouldn't have to pay attention to any rules.

Maybe it comes down to this: Thrilling yourself (or your cat) in ways that don't directly impact others seems fine to me. Adding unwanted chaos to the lives of others doesn't seem so fine to me.

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

+1

Besides how else could you get a dead bird gift every once
and a while?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[davethedave]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 13:05:26 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

>> Yes, keeping cats indoors reduces exposure to risks, but as anyone who
>> has lived with cats knows, they *want* to go outside, and when they get
>> out there, they live life so much more fully it's ridiculous to think
>> they can have a full life exclusively indoors.
>>
>> I cannot constrain my bicycling to minimizing every risk. I *can*
>> undertake the risks with due care (heightened situational awareness to
>> avoid problems but cognizant that stuff happens - that it's part and
>> parcel of living life to the fullest.
>>
>>
> +1
>
> Besides how else could you get a dead bird gift every once and a while?

Or a live frog gift. They are so thoughtful towards us useless hunters.
--
davethedave

[thirty-six]

Watch a dog, they eat (given the choice without indoctrination) foods
much closer to what man requires. I find a cat's offerings of meat
flesh weird, unless they have an intention to kill me. I've always
eaten enough and probably mostly too much flesh.

[Dan O]

We get dead birds, live birds, frogs and more brought into the house.

Need one of these:

http://www.quantumpicture.com/Flo_Control/flo_control.htm

[DirtRoadie]

On Nov 21, 11:44 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:

> I think one problem I have

[Yes we know there are many - The first step is acknowledging them]

> is with people who counsel cyclists to ride in chaotic ways that they _think_ are safer, but have been clearly shown to be much more dangerous.  That seems either ignorant or dishonest.  The classic would be to ride facing traffic, but there are many others - including sudden transitions from street to sidewalk and back.  Another problem is with people who revel in shocking cagers, making surprise messenger-style moves to gain fleeting advantage in traffic, because they think _they_ shouldn't have to pay attention to any rules.
>

> - Frank Krygowski

But since we are speaking of counseling cyclist to ride in chaotic
ways, predictability is a factor in the enactment of "ride right"
statutes by states including OHIO. One of the benefits is that it
eliminates the need for others to have to read the mind of the cyclist
to have an expectation of what he/she intends to do.
What was that about a "problem" with people who "think _they_
shouldn't have to pay attention to any rules?"
Frank, that's very funny!

DR

[Dan O]

On Nov 21, 10:44 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 12:01:23 PM UTC-5, Dan O wrote:
>
> > Bicycling *can* be very, very safe - the risk practically vanishingly
>
> > small - negligible. But that's no way to live (for me, anyway).
>
> > Yes, keeping cats indoors reduces exposure to risks, but as anyone who
>
> > has lived with cats knows, they *want* to go outside, and when they
>
> > get out there, they live life so much more fully it's ridiculous to
>
> > think they can have a full life exclusively indoors.
>
> > I cannot constrain my bicycling to minimizing every risk. I *can*
>
> > undertake the risks with due care (heightened situational awareness to
>
> > avoid problems but cognizant that stuff happens - that it's part and
>
> > parcel of living life to the fullest.
>
> Let me take advantage of an opportunity to partially agree with you.
>
> Others I'm close to disagree, but I do think the life of an indoor cat is boring and relatively unfulfilled. I'm sure that every cat given the choice would prefer to be allowed out, as well as in. Yes, there's some risk, but I'm sure even the cats realize that. As with helicopter parents, I think owners of indoor cats might be doing their charges net harm - psychologically, if not physically.
>
> And I'm fine with people taking on risk for their own entertainment. Skiing, radical mountain biking, skydiving, etc. are all fine with me. I've certainly tired of people implying it was too dangerous for me to ride my bike to work, or across the island, state, country, continent - take your pick. Much of what people worry about is quite safe. And even if it's not: if we permit totally sedentary lifestyles and eating to obesity, we shouldn't begrudge some adventurous movement.
>

I like the direction this is going...

> I think one problem I have is with people who counsel cyclists to ride in chaotic ways that they _think_ are safer, but have been clearly shown to be much more dangerous. That seems either ignorant or dishonest. The classic would be to ride facing traffic, but there are many others - including sudden transitions from street to sidewalk and back. Another problem is with people who revel in shocking cagers, making surprise messenger-style moves to gain fleeting advantage in traffic, because they think _they_ shouldn't have to pay attention to any rules.
>
> Maybe it comes down to this: Thrilling yourself (or your cat) in ways that don't directly impact others seems fine to me. Adding unwanted chaos to the lives of others doesn't seem so fine to me.
>

Is it any wonder I am offended by the things you say (or write)?

I do not counsel anyone to ride in *any* way (*you* do that). (Who
are you suggesting is ignorant or dishonest? And is that not
derogatory? Come one - who?)

I *do* sort of revel in shocking cagers, but only because they're so
pathetic, and uptight about it. When I do, though, it is not my
primary objective (Ride Bike!), and I am *constantly* making decisions
against my impulse if I judge it to be an *undue* intrusion on other's
sensibility - particularly if it *practically* impacts their own right
of pursuit of happiness (peace of mind, whatever).

So... look... there, I did it just now - decided against the impulse
to say something that I already did elsewhere.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 10:38:23 AM UTC-5, Jay Beattie wrote:
> So, the guy I've been riding with most lately -- and who was trying to
>
> pile on miles to regain fitness after getting hit by a car and
>
> breaking his collar bone earlier this year -- called me yesterday to
>
> let me know he had broken his wrist in a fall. He was making a
>
> transition from trail to road while riding his cross bike and hit a
>
> super-slick patch of moss, needles, slime and the usual stuff one
>
> finds under trees in Oregon. Down in a nano second -- no time for
>
> Matrix Ninja (tm) stop motion crash avoidance technique. It was so
>
> slippery, he had trouble getting his footing to stand up. I think for
>
> at least the next six weeks, I'll be riding with my other good cycling
>
> buddy who had been off his bike . . . recovering from a broken
>
> wrist. I am going to propose legislation for mandatory wrist
>
> braces.
>
>
>

> -- Jay Beattie.

I'll agree with yo Jay that bicycling is not dangerous -- most of the time. Howwever it is when a cager makes a left turn into you even though you were in the middle of the lane when you were in the intersection or passing a driveway; or when an inattentive cager plows into you (and perhaps others in your group) in broad daylight in clear weather and on a straight section of roadway. Because the mass of a bicyclist and their machine is much less than even the lightest cager and their machine it behooves the bicyclist to be vigilant at all times although even that does not mean you'll escape.

Years ago I had a quartz halogen car driving light mounted on the front of the mtb I used for commuting. Even with that I had cagers who turned left in front of me. That light was bright enough that a cop, who had seen me from at least 1/4 mile away flagged me over one night because he thought, when I was approaching him on the bicycle along the road, that I was a one-eyed cager. He was veery surprised to see that it was just a car driving light on the front of a bicycle.

Doesn't matter what the stats say, if you are struck and killed or seriosly injured whilst riding a bicycle, even if the collision is no fault of yours, then bicycling was dangerous.

The problem with many statistics is that the two ends get cut out of the equations - ends such as the high risk bicyclists and the very low risk bicyclists - thus giving a more level spread.

I don't tell people that bicycling is inherently dangerous but I do tell them that riding erratically in traffic, especially in high volume traffic, can greatly increase their chances of being involved in a collision.

Cheers

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:28:57 PM UTC-5, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>
> I don't tell people that bicycling is inherently dangerous but I do tell them that riding erratically in traffic, especially in high volume traffic, can greatly increase their chances of being involved in a collision.

I think that's a very sensible thing to say.

- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

"I don't care for the magazine much because, for one thing, it doesn't

seem to inform of anything that people... don't already know"