What fixed gear would you choose in hilly terrain?

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William Crowell

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Nov 10, 2021, 9:21:46 AM11/10/21
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Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?

jbeattie

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Nov 10, 2021, 9:45:43 AM11/10/21
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On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?

65-70" was the standard Rx. Find a gear in that range on your road bike and then go ride around and see what you think. IMO, the hard part is descending and not climbing. If you pick a gear that is comfortable climbing, it may beat you to death on the downhill -- unless you're that "smooth at 150RPM" guy, which I was not. Maybe start with a SS or a flip-flop, which means use a brake -- which is required by law anyway.

-- Jay Beattie.

William Crowell

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Nov 10, 2021, 9:54:45 AM11/10/21
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Yeah, the downhills are a drag, all right.

AMuzi

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Nov 10, 2021, 11:08:38 AM11/10/21
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On 11/10/2021 8:21 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?
>

I'm not you, of course. I'm currently on 44x20 = 60 inches

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


funkma...@hotmail.com

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Nov 10, 2021, 11:56:17 AM11/10/21
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On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-5, William Crowell wrote:
> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?

First off, I have to issue the caveat that I have front and rear brakes on my fixed-gear bike. I'm kind a wimp that way.
It's going to be tough to answer that question without knowing your riding style. Are you a generally a spinner (steady cadence ~90-100) or a masher (steady cadence ~85 or lower)?

What do you mean when you say "hilly"? short punchy or long sustained?

In general cycling terms, my area is considered to be flat/rolling (northeastern massachusetts). The biggest hill within 10 miles is a measly 300' over 1.5 miles (cat 4 according to strava). My fixed-gear non-competition riding will float between a 39x16 (~66") to a 42x14 (~81") depending on the time of year and the route. A 39x18 (~58") is pretty common for people on SS or fixed gears though.

I'm fond of riding the local TT in a 53x16 (~89"), and for some indoor events on a computrainer I'll ride a 53x14 (~102"). I'm a spinner and tend to keep my average cadence well over 90, but I'm also considered a climber, so I've lugged the 39x16 over that cat 4 climb many times. As you mentioned, the downhills are an issue - way more than climbing. That's one reason I run 2 brakes. Unless you can sustain a spin_WITH CONTROL_ over say 130, do yourself a favor and run brakes. Braking with your legs can only get you so far on a long downhill, and it's smart to have brakes if you're riding where there is any possibility of traffic.

FWIW - I am one of the "smooth at 150 guys" JB mentioned. There is a local shop team that still has roller races during the winter. They have a 100" gear restriction (but they allow a 52x14). It's a 1Km flying start on unloaded rollers. Winning times are under 30 seconds, which means being able to sustain ~180 RPM for that 30 seconds. My PR is 34 seconds,which is starting out the spin at around 175 and finishing at around 170.

ritzann...@gmail.com

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Nov 10, 2021, 4:14:37 PM11/10/21
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On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 8:21:46 AM UTC-6, William Crowell wrote:
> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?

67 gear inches is about a 53x21 or 42x17 or 39x15. 50x20 and 34x13 also. Assuming you own a ten speed bike with some of these chainring and cog sizes, go shift the bike into that gear and go ride and never shift during the ride.

I have two single speed bikes. Both on the freewheel side of the double sided hub. One side fixed, one side freewheel. After using the fixed side and not being able to ever coast, I decided I liked to coast. I cannot recall exactly what gearing I have on the bikes. But I am pretty sure both my bikes are geared higher than your 67 gear inches. I'm using 53 or 52 chainrings and I think 18 tooth cogs. I'm sure of the chainring sizes but kind of sort of guessing on the cog size. Mid/upper 70s for gear inches. Great gear for flat riding and mild hills. Might have to stand up for slightly steeper hills.

Ted Heise

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Nov 10, 2021, 7:50:38 PM11/10/21
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:08:35 -0600,
AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 8:21 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told
> > me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a
> > favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant
> > case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would
> > you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?
>
> I'm not you, of course. I'm currently on 44x20 = 60 inches

Nor am I either of you. I've run a 46x17 (71.4 gear inches)
forever, but I don't do big hills either. Like Russell, I stand
to climb when things are on the steeper side. Like Jay,
descending is tough for me--and one reason I have a front brake.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Joerg

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Nov 11, 2021, 5:56:57 PM11/11/21
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On 11/10/21 6:21 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for hilly fixed-gear work?
>

Just curious, why would you want a fixed-gear bike in our rather hilly
area? For us older guys that sounds like a recipe for ruining the knee
joints. And on the downhill without a brake you'd be one chain-throw
away from a nasty crash.

To me all this fixed gear business sounds like masochism :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

William Crowell

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Nov 12, 2021, 7:58:18 AM11/12/21
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Hi, Joerg. I am trying to ride my fixed gear and my unicycle a bit in order to whip myself into better shape. But I'm not really sure if I have sufficient mental discipline!

Tom Kunich

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Nov 12, 2021, 4:45:00 PM11/12/21
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On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 2:56:57 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
I have a serious concern for people that ride fixed gears anywhere for any reason. I cannot imagine fighting the weight of a bike both accelerating and decelerating with a gear that would allow you to get anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 12, 2021, 4:56:57 PM11/12/21
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Bill, use a geared bike and ride more. I do San Leandro to Oakland, Up Tunnel Road, and back into Oakland and San Leandro via Skyline. Tunnel isn't really hard climbing so you shouldn't have any problems after the first quarter mile and the top quarter mile. If you live in Berkeley you could always turn left on the top onto Grizzly Peak and work your way back. Depending on where you live, you can go almost anywhere in Berkeley that route and not have a really long ride. Doing that three or four times a week would put you back into shape pretty fast.

Roger Merriman

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Nov 12, 2021, 4:58:18 PM11/12/21
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I liked the SS bike it was light and fast. I couldn’t get on with fixed, I
missed freewheeling and well cornering at speed being the old MTBer I am,
so while I could ride fixed I didn’t enjoy it.

Must try it in a velodrome one day and see how it feels!

Roger Merriman

Tom Kunich

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Nov 12, 2021, 5:24:40 PM11/12/21
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Fixies work well in a Velodrome because you have a lap to get moving and a lap to stop. For some reason, fixies became popular with bike messengers. Probably because they have almost zero maintenance costs. Replace tires and chains and once in awhile fixy gears.

jbeattie

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Nov 12, 2021, 5:36:56 PM11/12/21
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On Friday, November 12, 2021 at 1:58:18 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
Good point about corners, which are not a problem in a velodrome. We just lost our neighborhood velodrome to development. Alpenrose was one of the steepest banked (43 degrees) permanent track in the US. https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/alpenrose-velodrome-09558-1569889293.jpg?resize=980:* https://pamplinmedia.com/images/artimg/00003582137737.jpg Surface repairs: https://tinyurl.com/yftde5yj

Minimum speed was supposedly 12mph through the turn, otherwise, you fell off the bank. I was racing there one day, and I picked up some glass riding over from my house and flatted at the top of the bank and went sliding down, which was embarrassing. it was a great little track and always open. You could just go over there and ride around on a road bike if you were so inclined, which I would do with my son. Sad comment on development, but its hard running an inner-city dairy with a bunch of free facilities centered on 1950s activities (little league fields, etc.).

-- Jay Beattie.







AMuzi

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Nov 12, 2021, 5:56:20 PM11/12/21
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On 11/12/2021 4:36 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Friday, November 12, 2021 at 1:58:18 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 2:56:57 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/21 6:21 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>>>> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA racer) told me to
>>>>> use a 67, but she was young, in great shape and had a favorable BMI.
>>>>> Those facts are inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and
>>>>> J.B. would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters use for
>>>>> hilly fixed-gear work?
>>>>>
>>>> Just curious, why would you want a fixed-gear bike in our rather hilly
>>>> area? For us older guys that sounds like a recipe for ruining the knee
>>>> joints. And on the downhill without a brake you'd be one chain-throw
>>>> away from a nasty crash.
>>>>
>>>> To me all this fixed gear business sounds like masochism :-)
>>>
>>> I have a serious concern for people that ride fixed gears anywhere for
>>> any reason. I cannot imagine fighting the weight of a bike both
>>> accelerating and decelerating with a gear that would allow you to get
>>> anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.
>>>
>> I liked the SS bike it was light and fast. I couldn’t get on with fixed, I
>> missed freewheeling and well cornering at speed being the old MTBer I am,
>> so while I could ride fixed I didn’t enjoy it.
>>
>> Must try it in a velodrome one day and see how it feels!
>
> Good point about corners, which are not a problem in a velodrome. We just lost our neighborhood velodrome to development. Alpenrose was one of the steepest banked (43 degrees) permanent track in the US. https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/alpenrose-velodrome-09558-1569889293.jpg?resize=980:* https://pamplinmedia.com/images/artimg/00003582137737.jpg Surface repairs: https://tinyurl.com/yftde5yj
>
> Minimum speed was supposedly 12mph through the turn, otherwise, you fell off the bank. I was racing there one day, and I picked up some glass riding over from my house and flatted at the top of the bank and went sliding down, which was embarrassing. it was a great little track and always open. You could just go over there and ride around on a road bike if you were so inclined, which I would do with my son. Sad comment on development, but its hard running an inner-city dairy with a bunch of free facilities centered on 1950s activities (little league fields, etc.).


Yes, that's a sad story. Kenosha isn't all that banked but
it's outlasted many others:

https://www.visitkenosha.com/listing/washington-park-velodrome/416/

https://www.kenoshavelodromeracing.com/tuesday-night-racing/

Roger Merriman

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Nov 12, 2021, 6:16:40 PM11/12/21
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There is a old velodrome deep in south london which I have visited for CX
racing a Halloween special! But not for 10 years or so, is the more modern
one from the 2012 Olympics and one in Newport.

Melbourne Australia seem to have quite a load of open air ones which was
good to see.

Roger Merriman

jbeattie

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Nov 12, 2021, 6:57:57 PM11/12/21
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It looks like the Hellyer Park Velodrome in San Jose. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellyer_Park_Velodrome That's the first place I raced track back in the '70s. Public park velodromes have a chance of success -- you can always get some 501(c)(3) to run them, and the land isn't going to get sold -- although someone may want to change the use to a petting zoo or something. Alpenrose was owned by Alpenrose Dairy, which basically held itself out as a public park. They also had cows and made ice cream, and school kids would tour the place. It was like a slice of life from the 1950s. It was also a great CX venue with huge fields. https://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/8065467630
But then things changed, the land got super-valuable . . . so bye-bye track and little league fields and BMX course, etc. https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2021/05/alpenrose-dairy-property-could-become-193-house-subdivision.html I really can't blame them -- it is valuable private property in a residential area with a bunch of non-revenue generating entertainment venues, but I'll miss it.

-- Jay Beattie.

Ted Heise

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Nov 13, 2021, 9:03:33 AM11/13/21
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 15:57:55 -0800 (PST),
jbeattie <jbeat...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Friday, November 12, 2021 at 2:56:20 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 11/12/2021 4:36 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 12, 2021 at 1:58:18 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 2:56:57 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> > >>>> On 11/10/21 6:21 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> > >>>>> Years and years ago, Heidi Hopkins (a Berkeley, CA
> > >>>>> racer) told me to use a 67, but she was young, in great
> > >>>>> shape and had a favorable BMI. Those facts are
> > >>>>> inapplicable to the instant case, as the judges and J.B.
> > >>>>> would say. What size gear would you treacherous oldsters
> > >>>>> use for hilly fixed-gear work?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Just curious, why would you want a fixed-gear bike in our
> > >>>> rather hilly area? For us older guys that sounds like a
> > >>>> recipe for ruining the knee joints. And on the downhill
> > >>>> without a brake you'd be one chain-throw away from a
> > >>>> nasty crash.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To me all this fixed gear business sounds like masochism
> > >>>> :-)

I suppose it could be, depending on the conditions you tackle. On
relatively flat terrain it can be quite enjoyable; it's also a
pretty bulletproof system in bad weather. Nice article from
Sheldon Brown (may he rest in peace):

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html


> > >>> I have a serious concern for people that ride fixed gears
> > >>> anywhere for any reason. I cannot imagine fighting the
> > >>> weight of a bike both accelerating and decelerating with a
> > >>> gear that would allow you to get anywhere in a reasonable
> > >>> amount of time.
> > >>>
> > >> I liked the SS bike it was light and fast. I couldn???????t
> > >> get on with fixed, I missed freewheeling and well cornering
> > >> at speed being the old MTBer I am, so while I could ride
> > >> fixed I didn???????t enjoy it.
I'm fortunate to have the Major Taylor velodrome just down the
way. I've never tried my hand at riding it (shame), but have
attended a few events there. It's concrete, so maybe not as nice
as a wood track(?), but maybe less maintenance?

It's part of a park that now includes skateboard and BMX
facilities. The park is owned by Indianapolis Parks and
Recreation Department, and is currently being operated by Marian
University.

https://indycycloplex.com/track

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Taylor_Velodrome

Tom Kunich

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Nov 13, 2021, 10:39:55 AM11/13/21
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I've attended many races down at our local velodrome without ever having the inclination to try riding a fixy.

jbeattie

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Nov 13, 2021, 12:57:11 PM11/13/21
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Didn't you race? Apart from track racing, fixies were prescribed for off-season training -- or at least that was SOP in the '70s and '80s in San Jose. Fixie riding on the road wasn't a thing for the teams I rode on in Oregon, but it was still a thing for roller riding. Everyone wanted to be the 200rmp guy, which I wasn't. Long femurs are inconsistent with 200rpms. Actual track racing includes a lot of events, some of which were more to my endurance bent rather than pure sprint power, but it was fun and a whole other thing than road racing because on a 43 degree bank, it gets a lot more three-dimensional, like being in a plane. You look up and down and not just across the road.

I've told this story before, but once again, I climbed Mt. Hamilton from the SW side on a fixie, which wasn't a big deal because of the moderate grade. https://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/17426/ The descent, however, was miserable. I flipped the wheel and hung the chain over the axle. I had a brake and that worked, and then I flipped it back for the climb out of Grant Ranch and the second climb out before descending into SJ.

-- Jay Beattie.

ritzann...@gmail.com

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Nov 13, 2021, 5:39:54 PM11/13/21
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You had to use a ladder to get up to the repairs on the track? Oh my. That is a bit steep.

jbeattie

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Nov 13, 2021, 6:42:29 PM11/13/21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmCe099jt5g&ab_channel=DustinKlein Go to 1:29-1;50, the part of the track I disliked was the ladder down to the track, which was only a few rungs, but I always felt imperiled in cleats. The track was redone in the late '90s and was really nice for a few decades, and then it started getting tired again. Prior to being redone, the track had pot holes, and the transitions off the tops of the turns were like ski jumps.

We had a lot of track racing, Olympic trials and all sorts of stuff at that track. Thursday night practices and Friday night races. You could rent a fixed gear and give it a whirl in a citizens event or just ride a road bike. When my wife was a grade school kid, she went to Alpenrose for the dairy tour -- saw the cows and got a giant bowl of ice cream. Those days are sadly behind us. https://www.koin.com/local/an-epitaph-for-portlands-alpenrose-dairy/

-- Jay Beattie.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 13, 2021, 7:26:05 PM11/13/21
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Yes, I originally raced but never enough to get out of Cat 5 before getting my injuries since the races were right there in Livermore somewhere I can't remember. I have NEVER seen anyone "training" on a fixie. Tell me all about how you think you can climb passes on a fixie. The only thing that I can remember about racing was that I Cat 4 & 5 would start shortly after 1, 2 and 3. I would run right up to the tail end of the 3's and then suddenly I couldn't keep up with the 5's and I said something to the Army and they gave me all sorts of medical examinations and told me my lungs were full of poison gas scars. After my concussion I had every conceivable examination. My neurologist told me that there were no scars in my lungs and that these things heal. But when I had the standard physical exam last year with X-rays the specialist and my doctor wanted to know how the hell I got all of those scars. Since my neurologist has just recently stopped teaching neurology at Stanford I can only assume that he doesn't remember how to properly read a lung X-ray.

I can imagine someone training on a fixie but I wouldn't believe they would since you'd have to gear for a climb and most of the climbs around here have really dangerous descents if you can't roll-out. Just (3??) years ago I did one of these climbs in a 39/25 without any trouble but the other side is a 10% average descent with a hard 30 degree turn just as you get up to speed and a 2 mile 30 mph run. And there are invisible driveways along this.

William Crowell

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Nov 13, 2021, 8:11:49 PM11/13/21
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Tom Kunich wrote: 'I have NEVER seen anyone "training" on a fixie."

IIRC, Rebecca Twigg once attributed her race wins to her fixed-gear training.

jbeattie

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Nov 13, 2021, 9:07:12 PM11/13/21
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On Saturday, November 13, 2021 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-8, William Crowell wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote: 'I have NEVER seen anyone "training" on a fixie."
>
> IIRC, Rebecca Twigg once attributed her race wins to her fixed-gear training.

Tom must have gotten a late start on racing. I think Cat 5 came into being in the early '90s sometime. Off-season fixed gear training was SOP from the '70s through the '90s, after which I dropped any pretense of serious training and have no idea of whether it was still a thing in the 2000s. I just raced now and then and only rode track with my son as kind of a father-son thing. He was coached by a guy who was a friend of mine and ran a youth development program. I'd go out with his kids, which was fun ,although a little sketchy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 14, 2021, 11:16:18 AM11/14/21
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jbeattie

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Nov 14, 2021, 11:43:32 AM11/14/21
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https://bikeraceinfo.com/training-fitness/fixed-gear-winter-training.html This guy is a USA Level 1 coach, two levels above Levi Bloom. He's a black belt. More of the same: https://bikerumor.com/2015/02/06/fixed-gear-winter-training/

The deal with racing is that you go from one team where coach Bob says one thing and then go to another team where coach Don says something different. What supposedly works changes with the weather. It's like bike fit over the years. I personally don't want to ride a fixie outdoors because my knees are shot and my outdoors have a lot of hills -- and I'm not training for anything. I ride fixed on my rollers these days, and that's about it.

-- Jay Beattie.


Tom Kunich

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Nov 14, 2021, 12:26:07 PM11/14/21
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Jay, how long do you ride your fixie in the winter?

jbeattie

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Nov 14, 2021, 1:07:49 PM11/14/21
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What do you mean how long? How long of a ride? How many weeks/months? Distance would vary depending on whether I was alone or with a group. A common group ride was from SJ down to Morgan Hill, over the rolling hills and back, which was probably 45 miles. That was with other fixie guys, so nobody was railing the down-hills.

A favorite solitary ride was going from my apartment in downtown SJ up to the top of the first climb on Mt. Hamilton, which was all I could tolerate descending. That was at the 5-6 mile mark, so maybe a total of 20 or so miles. I also commuted on a fixie (not my track bike), which varied in distance, sometimes just a few miles. BTW, I even commuted on a fixie after moving to Portland -- until the frame broke (it was a beater steel frame that had been in an accident), and then I got tired of beating myself to death on the downhills and went back to a geared bike.

My story of riding to the top of Mt. Hamilton happened because I was doing my usual fixie ride to the top of the first climb, and I ran into a friend on a road bike who cajoled me into riding to the top -- and then promptly turned around and rolled away. "Bye-bye." Todd, I'll never forgive you!

As for number of weeks or months, I'd ride a fixie for training during winter, and I would also ride my road bike with a 85" gear, which was the gear limit for the SJBC winter series races back then. Then during the season, I would do track racing on fixed gears, although never well and not a ton. It wasn't my thing. After moving to Oregon, track racing was an eat-your-peas part of riding for one club in Portland -- Thursday track. Winter in Oregon is not really conducive to fixie training outdoors, or I just didn't care anymore. Most of my fixie riding was on rollers or commuting, and training was on a fender bike with gears.

Its funny to think back on riding technique in the '70s and '80s -- you needed to spin so you could win a sprint or ride at a high tempo, but you did not spin climbing. You crushed some tiny cog and muscled up hills. How things change.

-- Jay Beattie.



AMuzi

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Nov 14, 2021, 2:09:01 PM11/14/21
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[raises hand] No one can know that!

Winter may end in the middle of March. May, not will. Last
year it went right through to a hard frost on Decoration Day
(end of May) which killed all the freshly planted tomatoes.

Frank Krygowski

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Nov 14, 2021, 2:16:09 PM11/14/21
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On 11/14/2021 11:43 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>
> The deal with racing is that you go from one team where coach Bob says one thing and then go to another team where coach Don says something different. What supposedly works changes with the weather.

Or (ahem!) with fashion. ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie

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Nov 14, 2021, 4:58:09 PM11/14/21
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You're hung up on fashion. Some of those training programs were super-science-y and based on DATA and yet they were wrong or not as good as the next thing. And then there was what to eat and when to eat, etc., etc. All of those programs were based on some study from some university. The early days of "sports science" had a lot of egg-head stuff you would have loved -- but that was superseded and/or disproved. Then there was just olde-tyme coaching, which was not fashion -- it was lore, which is a different thing. It's some guy's belief as to what works and what doesn't, often handed down from some ancient cyclist like Jacques Anquetil. I was a student of Jacque's wine-drinking regimen.

-- Jay Beattie.



Tom Kunich

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Nov 14, 2021, 5:41:13 PM11/14/21
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Well, I was more trying to point out that habit of his of countering a man with a lot of knowledge about something or other with some opinion piece from Joe Nobody. Do you suppose that impresses juries? He did that same thing when I showed Tony Heller's website that shows all of the crap that NOAA and NASA have been doing to "prove" man-made climate change. He counters him (Oh, he has been proven wrong) by the advertising arm of Reynold's Tobacco and some psychologist that knows nothing about climate.

I have ridden a very long time and very large mileages and never once do I recall someone "training" on a fixie for anything other than track.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 14, 2021, 5:44:37 PM11/14/21
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Jay, YOU do not understand real science. I don't say this to insult your intelligence but to point out that science isn't something you test by having one guy train on a Peloton and another on a Fixie delivering investment messages in San Francisco. If you believe that a fixie helped you racing, fine, but that ain't science.

jbeattie

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Nov 14, 2021, 6:34:52 PM11/14/21
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Tom, YOU do not understand real science. I do say this to insult your intelligence and to point out that exercise physiology, nutrition and a lot of "sports science" is in fact science. Yes, some aspects of coaching are not very scientific, but the benefits of fixed-gear riding were proven conclusively by an extensive study conducted at the University of Minsk involving prisoners.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie

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Nov 14, 2021, 7:00:28 PM11/14/21
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That's because you didn't race much or get coached -- and you raced late, after the invention of Cat 5s, which was in the '90s. Fixed gear training was the rage for decades, probably waning by the '90s. After the '90s, I was racing for a road club with enforced track days -- but no prescribed fixed gear road riding. It was not like in the SJBC during the '70s and early '80s when Don Peterson was prescribing off-season fixed-gear road riding and gear-inch limits for winter series road races. It makes you move your legs around and maybe develop a smoother pedal stroke and faster cadence. Who knows if it works. Its not like I rocketed to the top of the pro ranks or anything after riding a fixed gear off season.

And what would riding "very large mileages" tell you about training for anything? You might as well be running in a hamster wheel. You should go get in a racing club, get some coaching and go tear-up the old guy events. At least that would give you some purpose for your very large mileages.

-- Jay Beattie.


Frank Krygowski

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Nov 14, 2021, 8:11:42 PM11/14/21
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I'd say fashion and science can be mixed.

For a non-bike example, look at trends in diet advice. All veggie, all
carnivore, paleo, keto, Mediterranean and more have all claimed to have
science behind them, and their prominence wax and wane just like other
fashions.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

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Nov 14, 2021, 8:40:13 PM11/14/21
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If that's true, could you name a cultural change or belief
change which is not 'fashion' ?

I, like many, am bemused by multiple iterations of [item] is
good for you, deadly, beneficial, carcinogenic, [repeat].
But many of those pronouncements were from sincere people
trying to be helpful with flawed or incomplete data. I'm
sure some are flaks looking for publicity, but not all.

Frank Krygowski

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Nov 14, 2021, 8:57:54 PM11/14/21
to
On 11/14/2021 8:40 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 11/14/2021 7:11 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> I'd say fashion and science can be mixed.
>>
>> For a non-bike example, look at trends in diet advice. All
>> veggie, all carnivore, paleo, keto, Mediterranean and more
>> have all claimed to have science behind them, and their
>> prominence wax and wane just like other fashions.
>>
>
> If that's true, could you name a cultural change or belief change which
> is not 'fashion' ?

A cultural change or belief change that's not "fashion"? If you mean
that change suddenly surges and becomes common, I think it would be
tough to name one that isn't driven heavily by "fashion."

>
> I, like many, am bemused by multiple iterations of [item] is good for
> you, deadly, beneficial, carcinogenic, [repeat]. But many of those
> pronouncements were from sincere people trying to be helpful with flawed
> or incomplete data. I'm sure some are flaks looking for publicity, but
> not all.

Certainly there are sincere researchers working on every conceivable
issue. Certainly, many of them uncover new facts that are indisputably
true - although their presentation of the facts may be biased. (See your
"flaks")

But the public's response to this knowledge varies widely, and often
enough is completely contrary to the indisputable facts. I think most
people are much more prone to follow what others are doing (the fashion)
rather than what rational analysis would recommend. (Not that attempts
at rational analysis are all correct, of course.)


--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi

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Nov 14, 2021, 9:14:36 PM11/14/21
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Would you call the shift from geocentrism to heliocentrism
after Copernicus et al 'our current fashion'?

Fashion is a real force and phenomenon but is not a
universal explanation for every human action or thought.

Bicycle chain drives on the right side rather than left is
convention, fashion if you will. Any given rider's decision
to ride modern 2x12 may well be driven by the several and
significant features and improvements in the current system,
well beyond or even disregarding 'my bike has more
sprockets'. We cannot know that, even when we pretend that
we do.

John B.

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Nov 14, 2021, 9:16:20 PM11/14/21
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Out of curiosity I once did a bit of research on the so called "paleo"
diet that is supposed to equate to what very early "man" ate and I
discovered that there was no all encompassing diet eaten by early man.
From the remains that have been discovered it appears that "paleo"
diets varied to a extremely great degree depending on the environment
in which a specific group lived.

Thus there can't be a "paleo" diet per se (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Nov 14, 2021, 9:23:09 PM11/14/21
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I once read a book, by a doctor, or perhaps a veterinarian, from
Vermont who wrote that cattle seemed to do much better if you fed them
alfalfa and honey and bemoaned the fact that he hadn't been able to
get any humans to try this diet (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

jbeattie

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Nov 14, 2021, 9:38:41 PM11/14/21
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Anything after the penny farthing is fashion. Or is it the safety bike -- or the Schwinn Varsity? Somewhere in there. I'm still waiting for the non-fashion index point to be disclosed. For Frank, I think it was his 1987 ST800. But even that bike is fashion -- OS 6061 tubes, Sansin sealed bearing hubs, Dia Compe aero brake levers. Pffff. Sealed bearings wear out and you have to punch them out and press them in. Aero lever? What for? "Oooooh look at me . . . I'm aero!" "My tubes are fatter than yours." "I have 15 speeds!" Talk about a fashion bike. There is only one true bike: https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/fs/d51f506567237.56027a6d1b531.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.


funkma...@hotmail.com

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Nov 15, 2021, 9:34:59 AM11/15/21
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Fixed gear training in the winter was fundamental when I started racing in the mid 80's. I still do it, though not as much as I used to. The main goal with fixed-gear training is to teach you to be able to work outside your efficiency zones - everyone has a certain cadence where they are most efficient, a fixie will force you to spin higher or grind lower. There is some controversy with that however, one couch I had said "there is a difference between spinning an being spun".

Another coach said winter training should focus on long steady distance (LSD, sometimes called 'slow', but the focus is supposed to be steady targeted zones below AT), keeping your cadence in the lower efficiency range and heart rate below you aerobic threshold. IT was his contention that forcing a grind up a steep grade or spinning a downhill pushed you outside that range and defeated the purpose. This philosophy more closely aligns with the Polarized training approach develop by Stephen Sieler and used extensively by most coaches these days, And no, Frank, this isn't fashion or fad, there is a great deal of hard data to back up the approach, including physiological studies that show significant improvements in metabolic pathways for endurance functions as well as increased adaptability and durability. Sports science has come a long way n the past decade, I for one can't see a pendulum swing. There are a few hold outs for "sweet spot" training, but you don't find any serious coaches looking at that model any more.

What is has come down to WRT fixed gear _training_ is that is is used sparingly these days, usually in the context of specific drills. For the legit winter LSD rides a geared bike is the prescription. That said, I'll still go out for 2-3 hours on my fixed gear on rolling hills for adaptation workouts in the winter. One reason is that I like to do our local TT loop in a fixed gear.

One thing often overlooked is that in any given gear a fixed drive train is more efficient - less losses due to a spring-tensioned chain and inefficient pedal stroke - Inertia helps smooth out your pedal stroke. It only becomes problematic when the cadence is sustained outside your bio-mechanical efficiency range.

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:12:04 AM11/15/21
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That's true to a certain extent. The major point of a paleolithic diet that is lost on many people is the focus to back away from processed foods. Any grain sources or anything containing processed sugar are pretty much forbidden. Paleolithic humans didn't eat much in the way of grains because the nutrients aren't very accessible in the raw state. It wasn't until the notion of cooking grains was discovered which made the energy in grains was more accessible to the human Physiology. Factory farmed meats are also frowned upon, but free-range meat proteins are hard to find for some people and generally very expensive.

The Inuit for example up until modern times ate extremely little non-animal foods. They've adapted to being almost constantly in ketogenic state (very little direct carbohydrate sources). Compare that to rainforest tribes who have plentiful and easily accessible fruit and vegetable sources. There are a lot of cases where people who grew up on a "western" diet have tried to switch cold to a strict ketogenic diet and become very sick. The metabolic pathways for conversion of protein to glycogen (called Gluconeogenesis) and fats to ketones ( called Ketogenesis) need time to develop. Not only will the body not immediately adapt to the the different micro nutrient profile, but the lack of glycogen directly from sugar metabolism can result in emotional swings a sin some cases cognitive issues. Try to feed an Inuit a Yanomami diet and vice versa could even result in death (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning).

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:26:01 AM11/15/21
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So conclusive you can't even cite it. How absolutely lawyerly of you.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:32:26 AM11/15/21
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Yeah, I got you, "I did it right". Using prisoners in a "study" is REAL science. Jay, you finished last in your class and had to take the Bar exam 5 times didn't you?

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:37:29 AM11/15/21
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Most "science" is that published by journals written up by journalists that think THAT is interesting and they have only a passing understanding of science. Diet science in particular stopped at "that plant is poisonous" in early homosapiens time.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:39:36 AM11/15/21
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Sincere boobs are still boobs. If you don't have real data but pronounce it enough, it ain't science and never will be.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:44:06 AM11/15/21
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Do you have any idea of how long it took us to discover the cause of AIDS? And we were hindered every inch of the way by "science" publications and morons with the media attention like that idiot Fauci. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QFKuYD34b4

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 10:49:19 AM11/15/21
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More science from the intellectual who thinks that you can improve yourself by eating nuts and berries and make yourself stronger by pedaling out of your most efficient cadence instead of simply using more gears so that you can maintain the correct cadence. It isn't as if Chris Froome didn't teach everyone that lesson.

Frank Krygowski

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Nov 15, 2021, 11:17:45 AM11/15/21
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Andrew, when you asked about a "cultural or belief" change not triggered
by fashion, I assumed you were focusing on more sociological matters.
But of course I'm happy to expand to more nuts and bolts matters if you
like.

First, geocentricism vs. heliocentricism isn't on anyone's radar. It
doesn't matter unless you're an astronomer or space scientist. (And as
an aside: I recently got deeply interested into sundials. Most
technical, math-heavy books on them still describe the complex geometry
in terms of a stationary earth and moving sun; it's just easier to
process the math.)

But it's easy to identify a science-based tech development rejected by
fashion. One example is ever more efficient motor vehicles, with the
potential to save owners money, reduce environmental harm, etc. What do
people buy? Bigger and bigger pickup trucks. (And please don't say "We
can't know why that dude bought that pickup." There's been no surge in
people hauling hay bales and cattle feed in high-zoot suburbs.)

A flip-side case might be the mania against drinking straws that hit a
couple years ago. Some of the science was surely correct: "There's lots
of plastic garbage in the oceans!" and "This sea turtle got a straw up
his nose!" But straws were a negligible problem, and the fashion of
righteously eschewing them was nuts. (I notice that fashion has mostly
passed - and the couple I know who invested in anodized stainless steel
straws to carry into restaurants seems to have misplaced those
ridiculous things.)

Yes, in bikes, it's been cogs, cogs, cogs because small gear jumps are
SO much more efficient - unless you look at the data saying they're not.
But that doesn't matter, because now it matters more to not have a front
shifter. Because aero?? No, because fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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Nov 15, 2021, 11:21:45 AM11/15/21
to
On 11/15/2021 10:12 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> That's true to a certain extent. The major point of a paleolithic diet that is lost on many people is the focus to back away from processed foods. Any grain sources or anything containing processed sugar are pretty much forbidden. Paleolithic humans didn't eat much in the way of grains because the nutrients aren't very accessible in the raw state. It wasn't until the notion of cooking grains was discovered which made the energy in grains was more accessible to the human Physiology.

A related aside: One article I read claimed that the early hominid use
of fire was probably critical in evolution of the human brain. Cooking
makes nutrients much more available to our digestive system, and without
the easier availability of those nutrients, our (literally) power-hungry
brains could not have evolved.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 11:44:53 AM11/15/21
to
Theories are not science. And that is and that is an especially egregious form of pretend science since there is no way to test it and you are presenting it as science. Homo Sapien didn't develop because of his diet but in spite of it. Fire was a very late development. A bit of historical accuracy would show that making fire required materials that were quite rare and difficult to recognize requiring higher mental faculties.

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Nov 15, 2021, 12:10:05 PM11/15/21
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That's true, but depends on your perspective and the application of your interest. Engineers designing satellites general consider a geocentric model, since the mass of any satellite is significantly more affected by the earths gravity than the sun unless it is designed to leave an earth orbit. Geo vs helio models only matter to astronomers or cosmologists when considering very specific local phenomena. The gravitational pull of the sun doesn't figure into the equation for people researching the black hole at the center of our galaxy.

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Nov 15, 2021, 12:17:40 PM11/15/21
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It was certainly a factor. The human brain prefers glycogen as a fuel source. Cooked grains release significantly more energy as available carbohydrates which converts very easily via glycolosis. Here's good primer on the subject: https://www.pbs.org/food/features/food-delicious-science-episode-food-on-the-brain/

John B.

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Nov 15, 2021, 5:47:13 PM11/15/21
to
On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 07:12:01 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 9:16:20 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Nov 2021 20:11:37 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 11/14/2021 4:58 PM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, November 14, 2021 at 11:16:09 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >>> On 11/14/2021 11:43 AM, jbeattie wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The deal with racing is that you go from one team where coach Bob says one thing and then go to another team where coach Don says something different. What supposedly works changes with the weather.
>> >>> Or (ahem!) with fashion. ;-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You're hung up on fashion. Some of those training programs were super-science-y and based on DATA and yet they were wrong or not as good as the next thing. And then there was what to eat and when to eat, etc., etc. All of those programs were based on some study from some university. The early days of "sports science" had a lot of egg-head stuff you would have loved -- but that was superseded and/or disproved. Then there was just olde-tyme coaching, which was not fashion -- it was lore, which is a different thing. It's some guy's belief as to what works and what doesn't, often handed down from some ancient cyclist like Jacques Anquetil.
>> >
>> >I'd say fashion and science can be mixed.
>> >
>> >For a non-bike example, look at trends in diet advice. All veggie, all
>> >carnivore, paleo, keto, Mediterranean and more have all claimed to have
>> >science behind them, and their prominence wax and wane just like other
>> >fashions.
>> Out of curiosity I once did a bit of research on the so called "paleo"
>> diet that is supposed to equate to what very early "man" ate and I
>> discovered that there was no all encompassing diet eaten by early man.
>> From the remains that have been discovered it appears that "paleo"
>> diets varied to a extremely great degree depending on the environment
>> in which a specific group lived.
>>
>> Thus there can't be a "paleo" diet per se (:-)
>
>That's true to a certain extent. The major point of a paleolithic diet that is lost on many people is the focus to back away from processed foods. Any grain sources or anything containing processed sugar are pretty much forbidden. Paleolithic humans didn't eat much in the way of grains because the nutrients aren't very accessible in the raw state. It wasn't until the notion of cooking grains was discovered which made the energy in grains was more accessible to the human Physiology. Factory farmed meats are also frowned upon, but free-range meat proteins are hard to find for some people and generally very expensive.

But I just eat a normal diet, comprised of whatever my wife cooks and
haven't eaten any "processed food" in, probably, 50 years.
Well, except for whole wheat bread (:-)

>The Inuit for example up until modern times ate extremely little non-animal foods. They've adapted to being almost constantly in ketogenic state (very little direct carbohydrate sources). Compare that to rainforest tribes who have plentiful and easily accessible fruit and vegetable sources. There are a lot of cases where people who grew up on a "western" diet have tried to switch cold to a strict ketogenic diet and become very sick. The metabolic pathways for conversion of protein to glycogen (called Gluconeogenesis) and fats to ketones ( called Ketogenesis) need time to develop. Not only will the body not immediately adapt to the the different micro nutrient profile, but the lack of glycogen directly from sugar metabolism can result in emotional swings a sin some cases cognitive issues. Try to feed an Inuit a Yanomami diet and vice versa could even result in death (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning).

Exactly, which was essentially my point. While groups living in
inhospitable areas or climates certainly ate a lot of "animal" food
the Navaho Indians (whatever the socially correct term is) and other
southern tribes ate a considerable amount of "farmed grown" food.
Thus establishing XXX as the "paleo" diet is really not an accurate
designation.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Nov 15, 2021, 5:58:11 PM11/15/21
to
Late development??? I read that "Claims for the earliest definitive
evidence of control of fire by a member of Homo range from 1.7 to 2.0
million years ago"
--
Cheers,

John B.

Tom Kunich

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Nov 15, 2021, 6:41:42 PM11/15/21
to
John, Is this another of your B50 is not a B29 deals? Your mental problems are getting worse by the posting.

"H. sapiens was thought to have evolved approximately 200,000 years ago in East Africa. This estimate was shaped by the discovery in 1967 of the oldest remains attributed to H. sapiens, at a site in Ethiopia’s Omo Valley. The remains, made up of two skulls (Omo 1 and Omo 2), had initially been dated to 130,000 years ago, but through the application of more-sophisticated dating techniques in 2005, the remains were more accurately dated to 195,000 years ago."

Nothing like having man discovering fire almost 2 million years before they existed.

I will tell you what you ignorant butt-head: post any other total stupidity as you've been doing every single posting and I'm sure that you can get your audience to applaud your vast overreaching intelligence. I am done with you.

jbeattie

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Nov 15, 2021, 6:57:54 PM11/15/21
to
Dear Dope, hominids existed before H. sapiens and, indeed, started fires -- a million years ago. Go look it up. By the way, a theory is science if it is a scientific theory, like the theory of evolution or the theory of relativity. However, you may not believe in those theories -- being that you are a supreme intellect and probably know the actual truth, like that men walked with dinosaurs . . . in Texas. Long horn dinosaurs. That's where men harnessed fire and had dinosaur BBQs. It says so right in the good book. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/613sx2tjAbL._SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg

And what does this have to do with airplanes?

-- Jay Beattie.

AMuzi

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Nov 15, 2021, 7:41:07 PM11/15/21
to
On 11/15/2021 5:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 3:41:42 PM UTC-8, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 2:58:11 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 08:44:51 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 8:21:45 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 11/15/2021 10:12 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's true to a certain extent. The major point of a paleolithic diet that is lost on many people is the focus to back away from processed foods. Any grain sources or anything containing processed sugar are pretty much forbidden. Paleolithic humans didn't eat much in the way of grains because the nutrients aren't very accessible in the raw state. It wasn't until the notion of cooking grains was discovered which made the energy in grains was more accessible to the human Physiology.
>>>>> A related aside: One article I read claimed that the early hominid use
>>>>> of fire was probably critical in evolution of the human brain. Cooking
>>>>> makes nutrients much more available to our digestive system, and without
>>>>> the easier availability of those nutrients, our (literally) power-hungry
>>>>> brains could not have evolved.
>>>>
>>>> Theories are not science. And that is and that is an especially egregious form of pretend science since there is no way to test it and you are presenting it as science. Homo Sapien didn't develop because of his diet but in spite of it. Fire was a very late development. A bit of historical accuracy would show that making fire required materials that were quite rare and difficult to recognize requiring higher mental faculties.
>>> Late development??? I read that "Claims for the earliest definitive
>>> evidence of control of fire by a member of Homo range from 1.7 to 2.0
>>> million years ago"
>> John, Is this another of your B50 is not a B29 deals? Your mental problems are getting worse by the posting.
>>
>> "H. sapiens was thought to have evolved approximately 200,000 years ago in East Africa. This estimate was shaped by the discovery in 1967 of the oldest remains attributed to H. sapiens, at a site in Ethiopia’s Omo Valley. The remains, made up of two skulls (Omo 1 and Omo 2), had initially been dated to 130,000 years ago, but through the application of more-sophisticated dating techniques in 2005, the remains were more accurately dated to 195,000 years ago."
>>
>> Nothing like having man discovering fire almost 2 million years before they existed.
>>
>> I will tell you what you ignorant butt-head: post any other total stupidity as you've been doing every single posting and I'm sure that you can get your audience to applaud your vast overreaching intelligence. I am done with you.
>
> Dear Dope, hominids existed before H. sapiens and, indeed, started fires -- a million years ago. Go look it up. By the way, a theory is science if it is a scientific theory, like the theory of evolution or the theory of relativity. However, you may not believe in those theories -- being that you are a supreme intellect and probably know the actual truth, like that men walked with dinosaurs . . . in Texas. Long horn dinosaurs. That's where men harnessed fire and had dinosaur BBQs. It says so right in the good book. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/613sx2tjAbL._SX218_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg
>
> And what does this have to do with airplanes?
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>

That JPG is a dead link for me. Damn, I was curious about it.