Building Bikes

[Tom Kunich]

I came to this group a long time ago when people that were building their own bikes were looking for advice. Now it looks like no one save for me builds their own bikes. Except for Andrew of course and Andre but it looks like he is now happy where he's at and isn't building any more.

I find building bikes almost as enjoyable as riding them. Lou is correct that they are not a particularly good investment but so what? I have money to burn, as it were. I worked very hard my whole life in order to do anything I like in my retirement. Although my retirement would probably be better if my strength wasn't waning so rapidly. But winter is here and that is bike building season and I'm returning not only to steel but to 10 speeds as well. I'll no longer be shifting all day to find the gear I want. I am doing Cull Canyon entirely in the 34 ring now and still have to skip gears because all of the one tooth differences in the higher speed ranges. I am in the big ring all of the way down of course but there are three spots where there is enough climbing on the way down to slow me up quite a bit. I can tell that it isn't my heart because the times I've used my heart rate monitor it has always stayed in the acceptable range or even a bit better considering the lung damage.

But if I crawl around the barrier on Redwood Rd and do the old climb, it is just as easy as I remember it though I am slower. But all of this might be because running the old Campagnolo 10 speed you had a limit of a 28 cog. I'm not in the least sure that the lower ratios are any better. While it is easier to climb in the 32 or 34, it takes a lot longer to get to the top so you're working just as much. You just aren't straining as much.

Were I going to Moraga, the hardest climbs are right near the top of Pinehurst right at the top and Valley road that leads into Moraga. The Pinehurst climb is only a couple of hundred feet but the Valley climb is a quarter mile. While the old farts are dropping me on the flats, they will no longer even attempt the climbs I do and they most certainly won't try the miles. This means that now 90% of my miles are alone. But no matter since most if them are on seldom used roads though they are used a lot more than they used to be and a lot more than I would prefer.

Time to work on a bike. I would like it to be assembling the Basso but that will start tomorrow.

[Tom Kunich]

I would have expected that on a bicycles.tech group that there would be people that build up their own bikes but aside from Andrew apparently not.

[Lou Holtman]

My last build for a friend was a couple of months ago. Acquire all parts, before building check if all the part are in and correct. If that is the case the actual build is just one evening. Last build was a bike with hydraulic disk brakes with internal routing. It took two evenings, all went well without problems. Nowadays however most people buy complete bikes. Building your own wheels is an art that has gone out of fashion a long time ago.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

I've built and rebuilt many bikes. I've modified frames and changed
countless components over the years. But I don't constantly churn
through bicycles looking for minuscule performance advantages, claiming
each new bike will be the perfect one until it's not.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Good wheels are so available and so cheap that it is foolish to build you own unless you have an oddball like Catrike.

[Catrike Ryder]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 10:08:13 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

It might not be quite the same, but I had to take everything off a
damaged Catrike frame and put it all on the new one. Most of the parts
had already been replaced, anyway. And now I've even built a wheel. I
haven't started relacing the two front wheels yet, but I'll be getting
to it before too long.

[Catrike Ryder]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:47:15 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 10:28:47?AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 7:08:15?PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:

I did buy spare wheels, front and back, so I had something to use
while I was rebuilding the old ones. I might be the oddball one lacing
wheels, but it was something I needed to teach myself how to do.

[Roger Merriman]

My old MTB ie the commute beast is running out of original parts…

And to be honest with all my bikes get upgraded as time goes on, for
example had new rear mech for gravel bike recently.

Roger Merriman

[pH]

All the wheels on my bikes are homebuilts.

pH

[Catrike Ryder]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 05:30:54 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

My hats off to you. In my opinion, there's a great deal of
satisfaction to be had in knowing how to do something and to use that
knowledge to create things for yourself.

[Zen Cycle]

On Wednesday, December 20, 2023 at 1:08:15 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I would have expected that on a bicycles.tech group that there
> would be people that build up their own bikes but aside from
> Andrew apparently not.

Gee, let's recap what happened the last time someone besides tommy
decided to post a message about their latest build.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/h-RVKnBFnds/m/hKCQ4lNXAQAJ
"Does that look like the bike of a guy who claimed to be a racer? Or a
guy that is over 5'4" tall? I don't care what size he is or what way he
rides but misrepresenting himself is bullshit and gets tiresome. Compare
that to my normal ride"

Let's just set aside the fact that I very clearly stated I set it up for
my wife who does not race, has never raced, and will never race.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/h-RVKnBFnds/m/OamKR05aAQAJ
" it has that damned unicrown fork on it that was always a POS."

Let's just set aside that it was actually a Steelman fork (From Brent
Steelman of Steelman Cycles) - generally considered to be one of the
higher-end steel forks available, and anyone familiar with the pre-trek
CX bikes made by Bontrager would know Bontrager didn't put POS unicrown
forks on his bikes - the Steelman fork was OEM on the Bontrager CX.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/h-RVKnBFnds/m/Pht5ZR3sAQAJ
" What was with that crap that he was going to "return to racing CX"?
The bike was totally inadequate and physically he doesn't even have the
proper body type."

Let's just set aside that the bike was marketed by Bontrager (pre-trek)
as a CX racing bike, and professional CX racers run just as wide a
morphological range as road racers, with 2022 world champion Tom Pidcock
at 5'7" 130#, and current CX world cup leader Eli Iserbyt at 5'5" and
125# on the 'smaller' end of riders.

So tommy, why would anyone want to post anything about building their
own bikes when they see you being such a fucking asshole when someone does?

[John B.]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 07:22:17 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Granted it is much a matter of semantics but Tom doesn't "build"
bikes, he "assembles" bikes. i.e. gets the parts and puts them
together... with a multitude of problems :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 05:33:31 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

A guy who "assembles" houses out of parts he bought isn't building
houses?

[John B.]

One definition I came across was "The first little pig built his house
from straw, the second from sticks and the third from bricks" :-)

But does one order a bedroom, a living room and a kitchen and have
them delivered on a big truck? Or does one order a stack of 2 x 4's
and some boards?

Does on order a frame and two wheels? Or some tubes and lugs and a new
gas bottle for the acetylene torch?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Zen Cycle]

So tommy being tommy, rather than address the points here, goes over
to a ten-month-old thread because he's too much of a coward to answer me
directly.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/h-RVKnBFnds/m/pytqAofIAAAJ

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 11:40:24 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 8:28:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 6:25:37 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman
wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 25, 2023 at 3:02:03 PM UTC+1,
funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > I bought this Pre-Trek Beauty in about 2000 when I decided to
get back into racing after a short hiatus to build career and family.
> > > > >
> > > > > While the ride of this bike was a fantastic stable feel and
response, it was a bit heavy, and as the years of CX racing in New
England evolved to match the evolution of CX bikes, I switched to a Fort
CX which was better suited to the course designs - more maneuverable and
quicker response.
> > > > >
> > > > > So this hung in my basement for a while, until recently when
the Missus asked about getting a gravel bike. "I have just the thing for
you", I told her.
> > > > >
> > > > > The new build is SRAM Force/Apex, with red TRP canti's and
Bontrager CX wheels (post Trek), Vittoria Rubino 30 gravel tires, and
Wellgo pedals with toe straps because she prefers sneakers.
> > > > >
> > > > >
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ut2Ptrk6dhJf6WR2nKT6r0JvLA31ULrh/view?usp=sharing
> > > > >
> > > > >
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ubOYOuOBWMGfnP3-uDKLNb-tSaUmaLq8/view?usp=sharing
> > > > >
> > > > >
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uZvNS-pSrOZPzgyR3F2v4gPNev4pbzB7/view?usp=sharing
> > > > >
> > > > > I took it out for a mostly paved jaunt to shake it out. It
rides as smooth, stable, comfortable, and responsive as I remember, and
even took it for a bit of a school bus draft at ~35 mph.
> > > > >
> > > > > She'll be taking it on some rail trails this year.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first build was Campy Chorus (recently retired from a
Merlin build) with an Ultegra single 38 crank, SRP cantis, and Rolf
Vector Pro wheels.
> > > > >
> > > > > Racing the rig ~2009
> > > > >
> > > > > at Shedd Park in Lowell MA:
> > > > >
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KmsY98jsF5jmMGg2UIhWHRRcEbywe5HY/view?usp=sharing
> > > > >
> > > > > AppleCross in Hampton NH
> > > > >
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uaCJzHNoPOtbQ1auaQrqy7RpGGy0ex1q/view?usp=sharing
> > > > Have fun with it.

> > > Does that look like the bike of a guy who claimed to be a racer?
Or a guy that is over 5'4" tall? I don't care what size he is or what
way he rides but misrepresenting himself is bullshit and gets tiresome.

Compare that to my normal ride:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=891068818704535&set=pcb.891069548704462
And the quill stem was dropped another 2"
> > It is set up for his wife.
> >
> > Lou
> Yes, but he infers that it is an older bike of his own. The other
pictures also show him riding 50 or 52 cm bikes,

No, shitferbrains, none of the pictures I've posted show me riding a 52
or 53. Every road and CX bike I've ever owned are either 'medium' or 56
CM. The Bontrager CX is a "medium".

> He's not the person he pretends to be in his postings.

And what do I "pretend" to be?

> As for comments elsewhere - I knew Keith Bontrager and when he was
closing shop after selling out to Trek, he gave me a sack full of
cycling caps. I still have most of them here. So people needn't think
that they're explaining anything to me about Brent or Keith.

No one was, except for the fact that you don't really have clue about
what bikes they built.

> And that fork on that bike is a unicrown fork. While I don't remember
Brent making any of those horrible things, perhaps he did.

It's a Steelman fork, an upgrade option that was available on Bontrager
CX bikes. Here are a few other examples, every one of them has the
Steelman fork, as noted in a few of the listings:

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/my-bontrager-cx-is-finally-done.249222/
https://velomoo.blogspot.com/2009/01/bontrager-cyclocross.html
http://www.cyclofiend.com/cx/2006/cx008-jeromyhewitt0406.html
"hand built Bontrager CX Frame by Keith Bontrager w/ steelman fork"
https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4601179223_79f62ec9aa_o.jpg
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/2983880/
"This sale includes the original straight leg Steelman fork"
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/3058034/
"The straight blade fork was a rare option for this generation"

> On a hard bump the wheel can deform on rebound and cut the tire. I
have seen it happen several times.

Sure, that's why Gunnar cycles writes "Nothing beats the strength of the
unicrown design"
https://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/forks/

And I'm sure that's why Tom Ritchey puts his name on a unicrown steel
fork - because they're noodly pieces of shit that fail catastrophically:
https://ritcheylogic.com/bike/forks/wcs-steel-adventure-fork

If you've seen them break from impact, it's a cheap fork, it isn't
because the unicrown is inherently weak. But then, you're the moron who
thinks a dent can be ridden out of a top tube with road vibrations.

As usual, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

> It is fine that Flunky raced. I'm sure he never did any good but that
is also what all but the top 3 of a field do, so that sort or racing is
for the fun of it.

I've never claimed to be a great racer, never bragged about my results.
I race for the fun of it.

--
Add xx to reply

[Tom Kunich]

Now that you've shown everyone that you are indeed Flunky signing on in yet another persona so that you can agree with yourself. People will begin to see why I hold you in such disgust. While that Steelman you're riding has a lot of clearance I do not believe that is a one of Brent's forks Unicrown forks are very poorly made. Bontrager, Dennis Ritchey and Steelman all built good custom bikes., If that came from Brent, he bought it to finish a cheap bike.

[Catrike Ryder]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 06:00:02 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

..and those are "parts."

>Does on order a frame and two wheels? Or some tubes and lugs and a new
>gas bottle for the acetylene torch?

Tubes and lugs are "parts."

[John B.]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023 19:18:22 -0500, Catrike Ryder

Well, as I said, it is a matter of semantics just as, I suppose, 2 x
4's and roofing nails are parts of a house.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 12/21/2023 7:21 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 6:37:16 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> Now that you've shown everyone that you are indeed Flunky signing on in yet another persona so that you can agree with yourself.
>

> I've never claimed Zencycle wasn't Funkmaster, dumbass. You seem to be to only one too dense to figure it out.

>
>> People will begin to see why I hold you in such disgust.
>

> newsflash, dumbass, no one here gives a flying fuck what you consider to be disgusting.

>
>> While that Steelman you're riding has a lot of clearance I do not believe that is a one of Brent's forks
>

> Well, gee sparky, the internet is your friend!
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20030207230412/http://www.steelmancycles.com/cc.html
> "The CC frame is equipped with our own exclusive straight blade unicrown fork."
>
> I guess you could call that 'straight from the horses mouth' - ad copy on Steelmans website stating they make an exclusive straightblade unicrown fork.
>
> He sold the forks separately to frame builders - like Keith Bontrager - for use as OEM options. Here's another:
> Steelman CX set up as a singlespeed with a Steelman unicrown fork
> https://www.mtbr.com/threads/vintage-ss-fixed-steelman-eurocross-porn-now-functional-wall-art.1221872/?post_id=15979579&nested_view=1#post-15979579
>
> and another:
> Moot TI with a Steelman unicrown fork
> https://www.mtbr.com/threads/moots-psychlo-x-ybb-titanium-cyclocross-bike.1207320/#post-15690919
>
> And another:
> https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/show-us-your-700c-atb-mtb-hybrid.459355/page-3

>
>> Unicrown forks are very poorly made.
>

> only when someone doesn't know what they're doing - like you.

>
>> Bontrager, Dennis Ritchey and Steelman all built good custom bikes., If that came from Brent, he bought it to finish a cheap bike.
>

> No, stupid, Brent Steelman made exceptionally high quality steel unicrown forks. He used them on his bikes, and sold them to other custom builders for use on their bikes. There's nothing wrong with unicrown forks.
>
> As usual, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/fork-blades/products/columbus-unicrown-fork-blades-25-4mm-round-15-5mm-id-tip-1-2-9-wall-length-410
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Just for clarity - tom isn't disputing that unicrown forks can be made, even from Columbus tubing. His complaint is that they are an inherently flawed design, and it isn't possible to build a high quality (stiff, light, responsive) unicrown fork - even by builders such as Steelman, Ritchey, and dozens of other reputable builders, even after being shown a statement on Steelmans (archived) website "The CC frame is equipped with our own exclusive straight blade unicrown fork." Tommy's statement "If that came from Brent, he bought it to finish a cheap bike" is beyond laughable - Imagine a framebuilder with a reputation like Steelman, Ritchey, or Bontrager thinking "I'mma grab this cheap piece o' shit fork and slap in on a bike with my name on it".

BTW - just for tommy's edification (if that's even possible), The genius behind Ritchey isn't anyone named Dennis. It's Tom. Ferfuckssake, you'd think even _tommy_ would remember that (I can't believe I missed that the first time around).

And one more note on the issue of whether a unicrown fork can be a good design, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Ritchey#Innovations credits Ritchey "1983 - Standard unicrown tapered fork".

Of course we won't hear from tommy on the blatantly obvious fact that he's wrong, after all, in the timeless words of fake-irish shitstain, "tom is always right".

[Zen Cycle]

[Zen Cycle]

On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 8:35:01 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/21/2023 7:21 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

[Tom Kunich]

Slocomb is a "qualified machinist" that the Air Force decided to use in a dead-end job so he knows that.....

[Radey Shouman]

One used to be able to order a house kit, to be assembled on site:

https://thecraftsmanblog.com/the-history-of-sears-kit-homes/

The house across the street from mine is one, built or assembled some time
in the thirties. It's an attractive house.

Today there are all manner of factory built "modular" houses that can be
installed on site, with a bit of finishing required. Some are really
nice buildings, not the stereotypical double-wide.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/22/2023 11:20 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>
> One used to be able to order a house kit, to be assembled on site:
>
> https://thecraftsmanblog.com/the-history-of-sears-kit-homes/
>
> The house across the street from mine is one, built or assembled some
time
> in the thirties. It's an attractive house.
>
> Today there are all manner of factory built "modular" houses that can be
> installed on site, with a bit of finishing required. Some are really
> nice buildings, not the stereotypical double-wide.

As I understand it, the Sears houses were kits composed of individual
2x4s, etc. Unlike the modular houses, the Sears kids had to be knocked
together one nail at a time.

And it is amazing to me that the biggest investment most families ever
make is assembled almost exactly as it was in ~1930. Roof trusses are
often shipped assembled (to the detriment of attic space) but the rest
of a house is usually stick built, with work halting for bad weather, etc.

I recently read an article about the repeated efforts to improve that
situation - to do sub-assemblies in factories and ship them to site -
but apparently it's a difficult problem. Many attempts have failed.

But ideas are always cooking. This looks kind of interesting:
https://youtu.be/vL2KoMNzGTo?t=1

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

OK, interesting.

My (small) understanding of reinforced concrete construction
from my time laying and tying rebar is that they can save a
lot of labor and steel costs that way.

If it were my house, I'd prefer a CE and an architect rather
than a software designer.

[Frank Krygowski]

Designing this system had to have been a huge effort. I'm sure multiple
CEs were involved.

As you know, I tend toward retro-grouchery. Regarding printed concrete,
I wonder what happens if they owners later want to remodel.

One engineer friend of mine built his own home on remote country
property, using a book's "innovative" construction techniques that were
purportedly much better than standard methods.

When I visited him years later, he said he'd like to hang the author of
that book. By then he had done an addition to the original house, but he
used conventional construction.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Coming from an earthquake zone I don't understand why more single family dwellings aren't made with reinforced concrete as the outer walls. When you are in a wooden structure and a 4.0 occurs there's usually no damage but cracked wallboard here and there (I presently half several cracks in the ceiling wallboard that are too much trouble to fix myself so will leave them until I have to hire a contractor). Just 10 years ago I redid the front and back family rooms and it was such an improvement that I should have completely redone the whole house., But then the wife returned and dump her stuff EVERYWHERE and there's is no room anywhere to work.

[John B.]

I grew up in such a house. From what the original owner's wife told us
the "kit" consisted of the individual frame timbers cut to length and
walls were sized so that 4 x 8 (standard size) plywood panels were
used for sheathing.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Certainly something to the if it isn’t broke don’t fix it with some method
of construction, certainly some structures and infrastructure haven’t
lasted as long as perhaps expected?

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 21:40:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

My maternal grandfather's house was built in 17-something, admittedly
up dated with inside plumbing, electricity and so on over the years
but still standing today.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Well indeed various buildings still standing local to me in the few to many
hundreds of years old. Seems generally that the buildings tend not to
structurally fail but it’s often cheaper/fashionable to have a newer
building and so on.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 09:40:51 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> Certainly something to the if it isn?t broke don?t fix it with some method
>>> of construction, certainly some structures and infrastructure haven?t

>>> lasted as long as perhaps expected?
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> My maternal grandfather's house was built in 17-something, admittedly
>> up dated with inside plumbing, electricity and so on over the years
>> but still standing today.
>>
>Well indeed various buildings still standing local to me in the few to many
>hundreds of years old. Seems generally that the buildings tend not to
>structurally fail but it’s often cheaper/fashionable to have a newer
>building and so on.
>
>Roger Merriman
>

Well, if you can build a house, or barn, that will last a couple of
hundred years, and isn't expensive at all, then it seems logical to
so?

I worked, one summer, re shingling the barn roof at the Calvin
Coolidge homestead (Calvin Coolidge - a U.S. president). the only
metal fasteners in the whole barn were the hand forged nails holding
the shingles.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/13/2024 4:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 21:40:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Certainly something to the if it isn’t broke don’t fix it with some
method

>>> of construction...

I think the issue especially with typical U.S. home construction is that
it seems there ought to be a better way. A house is the biggest expense
most families take on. It's weird that the way it's manufactured hasn't
changed much in 100+ years. Contrast that to the second biggest expense,
the automobile. A modern car factory and a car's design is nothing like
that of a 1923 Model T Ford.

>>> ... certainly some structures and infrastructure haven’t

>>> lasted as long as perhaps expected?
>>

>> My maternal grandfather's house was built in 17-something, admittedly
>> up dated with inside plumbing, electricity and so on over the years
>> but still standing today.
>>
> Well indeed various buildings still standing local to me in the few
to many
> hundreds of years old. Seems generally that the buildings tend not to
> structurally fail but it’s often cheaper/fashionable to have a newer
> building and so on.

The suburban village I live in has some love for its history. There are
several historic mansions, many other more modest houses have historic
plaques, several newer buildings were designed to blend with historic
architecture, etc.

And there are two historic school buildings still in use. This past
year, for the second time, the school board proposed a tax levy to raise
money to tear down those buildings and build new schools, probably
outside the village. For only the second time ever (AFAIK) the school
levy was defeated.

Part of the school board's rationale was that maintenance costs would be
lower in a new building. But another part was that it will be too hard
to equip the existing buildings for the latest internet technology -
probably meaning running fiber optic cables (or "light lines," chuckle!)
to every classroom. But to me that makes no more sense than saying, in
the 1990s, "We have to remodel so we can play cassette tapes in every room!"

Of course, I'm an acknowledged retrogrouch. But I do greatly prefer the
look of good older architecture. I see no value in applying "trendy"
looks to something that's intended to last for many decades, let alone
hundreds of years. "Trendy" becomes unfashionably ugly very quickly.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I'm sure improvements may and will be made* (and are
ongoing; PVC plumbing, multiple layer glass, synthetic
insulation etc) but the uniquely US typical housing
construction format:

https://www.cotswold-homes.com/the-balloon-frame-a-new-way-of-home-construction-in-america/

is historically significant to our exceptional rates of home
ownership. To economists anyway if not to architectural
critics.

* Fifty years ago, residential steel roofs were
prohibitively expensive and extremely rare. That's changed
and I can't praise them enough. At least in snow country.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, modern framing is better than post and beam, which hasn't been used
much for homes in the past 100 years. And yes, the details are improved.
But the fundamentals are still at a 1920s level: Bring a bunch of sticks
to the job site and hammer them together until you've got a wall. Seems
like there should be better ways.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

There are indeed better ways.

Factory built modular homes offer better quality control,
lower overall cost and faster on-site erection (which
matters for construction loan terms). Too bad the excessive
regulation prohibits them in many areas.

[Tom Kunich]

Around here they always use the excuse that buildings are not earthquake safe. So why do all of the replacements end up with walls of plain glass?

[AMuzi]

A glass building without a steel frame? Really?

[Tom Kunich]

Of course it has a steel frame. But half of the walls are plain window glass and the rest is flexible panels. After spending millions on iy, they quietly turned it into a part time adult education school after it was deemed unsafe as a high school. Kind of reminds you of military $600 toilet seats.

[John B.]

On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 13:42:34 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/13/2024 12:36 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Steel roofs? Do you mean galvanized roofing? It's been around for
years and years :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

I’m not a retrogrouch but brave new world with both materials/design and
set up don’t seem to have worked generally or lasted, ie the concrete tower
blocks/with handy mugging traps and so on, or simply get so run down.

Built huge flat roofed towers in the Welsh valleys not a area tight on
space, or with a growing population, the reverse in fact (coal/iron towns)
they only lasted a few decades combination of being unloved and wet cold
weather.

How we use our homes have changed over the years, but some ideas just don’t
work and in general folks like homes that are fairly conservative in nature
ie don’t fix what isn’t broke!

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Not like the quonset hut material. These are more
substantial and well coated:

http://www.utahmetalroofs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/cl1.jpg

Shed snow well, less degradation from winter/summer
temperature changes, much lighter than asphalt.

[John B.]

Interesting, I had never seen them, at least on houses. As for snow on
the roof? Yes, I can remember my father upon a ladder with a long rake
sort of thing raking snow off the roof. Unusual as normally the snow
would slide off by itself and I suspect that there had been a snow
then a bit of a warm weather so the snow sort of softened and then a
cold spot when it hardened.

Here new houses are normally concrete with tile roofs.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:36:02 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/13/2024 4:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 21:40:22 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>> Certainly something to the if it isn?t broke don?t fix it with some

>> method
>>>>> of construction...
>>
>> I think the issue especially with typical U.S. home construction is that
>> it seems there ought to be a better way. A house is the biggest expense
>> most families take on. It's weird that the way it's manufactured hasn't
>> changed much in 100+ years. Contrast that to the second biggest expense,
>> the automobile. A modern car factory and a car's design is nothing like
>> that of a 1923 Model T Ford.
>>

>>>>> ... certainly some structures and infrastructure haven?t

Not to argue but how have "the use of homes changed over the years"?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Girlfriend's farmhouse, built around a mid 1830s cabin, got
electricity in the 1930s and one of the happiest days of her
life was in 1959 when her father set up indoor plumbing.

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 07:53:52 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Not to argue but how have "the use of homes changed over the years"?

The average kitchen is no longer a major food-preservation facility.

The average housewife no longer expects to prepare a hearty meal for a
large group several times a year.

Home manufacture of clothing is now a hobby.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[John B.]

Sure, but is that "use" of house changed?

And yes, the wood burning cook stove probably got change to kerosene
although my maternal Grandmother cooked with wood until she died and
argued vehemently that was the proper way to cook... she had the
kerosene "summer stove" on kitchen rear stoop for the summer months

[pH]

On 2024-01-15, Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 07:53:52 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Not to argue but how have "the use of homes changed over the years"?
>
> The average kitchen is no longer a major food-preservation facility.

I also read in old tomes that there were also community canning kitchens
where women would gather and can en masse or one could go use if one's home
facilities were inadequate, eg: apartment dwellers.

Canning was a normal yearly event in my home growing up.

>
> The average housewife no longer expects to prepare a hearty meal for a
> large group several times a year.

Easter, Christmas and New Years were the biggies at home.

>
> Home manufacture of clothing is now a hobby.
>

This has surprised me but is certainly true. We did send our daughters to
sewing class at their request but I think it's limited to buttons and the
like these days.

pH in Aptos

Sewing skills can be used to fix "sew ups" (tubular tires)...there! Bicycle
content.

[John B.]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 04:01:24 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

I think that these "homemaker skills" were far from universal.
Neither of my grandmothers (born 1880's) sewed or "put up" food and
my mother prior to marriage and after myself and my brother were
grown, was a 4H Club Agent and one of the things taught farm girls was
how to sew, which sort of implies that their mothers couldn't sew.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Rolf Mantel]

My brother-in-law last year replaced several old asbestos-tile roofs on
old sheds by those metal roofs (it's easy to put solar collectors on top
of those) and learned afterwards that they did not comply to the town's
zoning regulations.

[Rolf Mantel]

> Not to argue but how have "the use of homes changed over the years"?

In the past, homes had many small rooms, nowadays few large rooms are
more popular. In the 1970's, the average 'flat space per person' in
Germany was about half that of today. Half-timbered homes from several
centuries ago had few small windos to minimizse heat losss while modern
homes tend to have large windows to get bright interiors (you can easily
keep direct sunlight out by other means).

[John B.]

Re room size. Perhaps in your country but certainly not in the N.E.
part of the U.S. where I grew up. Fairly typical family house similar
to where my Grandparents lived.
https://buildingsofnewengland.com/tag/new-england-farmhouse/

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

"We're from the government. We're here to help you."

[Frank Krygowski]

Where does your brother-in-law live?

Here in the U.S., "Homeowners' Organizations" are a big pain for many
people. These organizations spring up when a developer builds a housing
complex or condominium complex, especially if the intent is to make it a
bit exclusive. HOs are notorious for banning things like paint colors
outside a very limited palette; or unusual shrubbery; or boats on their
trailers parked on a person's driveway; or even clotheslines.

And for Andrew's benefit: Homeowners' Organizations are not
government-run. They're an example of free enterprise restricting freedom.

Back to the modern metal roofs: They do make a house look conspicuously
different. Some don't like their aesthetics, but they seem to work very
well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Yes we agree.
HOAs are contractual when you buy the property. Anyone who
doesn't read/investigate that contract first has only
himself to blame.

Government harassment of property owners is a different
thing entirely:

https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/01/latest-property-rights-fight-comes-before-justices/

A municipal ticket for not clearing ice and snow from the
public way on your property has some 'protection of
citizens' aspect and seems reasonable to me.

Bans on manufactured homes or steel roofs and the like, as
well as on informal rental (rent a room in your house), bans
on grease pits in garages (I had one, which was very handy
but illegal if discovered) and the like just push people to
the edge.

[John B.]

When I brought my first wife to "America" we lived in a small town in
California and my wife being a pagan and not knowing much asked me to
build her a "clothesline" to dry the washing on. Which, given that my
mother and grandmother had clotheslines to dry their washing on seemed
quite reasonable.

So I bought some posts and so on and started to build my wife's
clothesline. Not in the front yard but sort of "round the back" where
it would be handy the kitchen door.

I had hardly gotten the first support post in the ground when a
representative of the "Citizen's Neighborhood Council" came around to
inform me that clotheslines, even in the back ward weren't allowed as
they would make the neighborhood "look common".

So, I tell the wife, "No close line as it will make the place look
common" and she reply's that, "If we buy a clothes dryer that costs
money and then we have to buy the electricity to run the clothes
dryer.... and the sun is free".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:27:03 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> one of the things taught farm girls was
> how to sew, which sort of implies that their mothers couldn't sew.

My mother and older sister supervised my 4-H projects.

[John B.]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 20:40:44 -0500, Joy Beeson
<jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:27:03 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> one of the things taught farm girls was
>> how to sew, which sort of implies that their mothers couldn't sew.
>
>My mother and older sister supervised my 4-H projects.

Didn't you have an Agent that held "classes" (for want of a better
word) from time to time to sort of see how things were getting on?

Neither of my grandmothers sewed, other then the usual buttons and
sock darning and they were both "farm girls". My mother did but I
don't believe her three sisters did and, from memory, my mother's
sewing was more in the nature of winter shirts for her husband and two
boys rather then for herself. She also knitted winter stockings.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 07:53:52 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Not to argue but how have "the use of homes changed over the years"?
>
> The average kitchen is no longer a major food-preservation facility.
>
> The average housewife no longer expects to prepare a hearty meal for a
> large group several times a year.
>
> Home manufacture of clothing is now a hobby.
>

This, plus bath rooms ie baths or walk in showers and so on, let alone
garages for cars and so on.

My folks place which is few hundred years old, had a garage and so on built
in the 70’s very few cars would fit now as it’s too narrow!

Roger Merriman

[Zen Cycle]

Modern metal roofs have the added benefit of letting heavy snow slide
off which reduces risk of a collapse by weight, as well as reducing
long-term damage if holding water (causing rot). One drawback - the snow
sliding off can great a hazard for people and cars parked close enough
to get a large column of heavy went snow avalanching off the roof. We
have one business here that puts a barrier keeping people and cars away
from the 'crush' zone.
--
Add xx to reply

[AMuzi]

Most if not all I see here have snow breakers near the edge
(and sometimes higher as well) so it's not one big heavy
slab sliding off.

2-1/2 minute video with before/after action shots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRXmWCs-EtM