How to get lower gearing on a Shimano 10 speed touring bike
Fred
Shimano STI shift levers, a 10 speed 12- 27 cassette, a triple FSA
50/39/30 crankset and Shimano Ultegra GS rear derailer. The derailer
has maximum sprocket size of 28T, maximum front difference of 22T and
total capacity of 39T.
My question is what is the easiest way of getting lower gearing with
the setup I have?
Thanks.
Dan O
landotter
Until they release a Meganerd 34T 10s cassette, you're limited to
swapping out your granny for the smallest possible ring. A Sugino 24t
ring is about twenty bux.
10 speed touring bikes, they're for selling!
pm
The only easy thing to do is replace the 30 chainwheel with a 24. All
your other options start running into expensive complications -- I'm
not sure why they are putting a 10speed drivetrain on what they bill
as a loaded touring bike.
-pm
russell...@yahoo.com
Cheapest: Your crankset accepts 74mm bolt circle diameter inner
chainrings. Buy a 24 tooth inner chainring. Also get a chainwatcher
type device because going from the 39 to 24 is a big drop and the
chain will fall off. Third Eye, N' Gear Jump Stop are two chain
watchers. Ignore the 22 tooth difference, its wrong. Only use the 24
inner cog with the bigger cogs in back, top half of cassette.
Otherwise the chain will drag on the bottom of the front derailleur.
IRD makes 10 speed cogsets with 34 tooth big cogs. About $150
though. Your current derailleur will not handle this. Get a cheap
Shimano long cage rear derailleur. 8-9-10 speed makes no difference.
Cheap Shimano mountain bike rear derailleurs work fine. $20. Your
shifters will shift them fine.
Get a mountain bike crankset with 44-32-22 chainrings. Mountain bike
cranksets can be found pretty cheap. Put it on when going touring and
use the original crank around home. The front derailleur may not
shift too well with these chainring sizes. But it should still
shift. And front shifting does not need to be that fast.
Bill
is fairly low. Another approach (rather than replacing anything) would
be to just keep the setup you've got and keep riding it as is. When
you get in a little bit better shape, you won't have any trouble
keeping that 29 turning on the hills. By going for a lower granny on
your 10-speed setup, you are inevitably going to sacrifice some useful
intermediate gears.
Hank
> Your present low gear is what is referred to as a "29-inch" gear. That
> is fairly low. Another approach (rather than replacing anything) would
> be to just keep the setup you've got and keep riding it as is. When
> you get in a little bit better shape, you won't have any trouble
> keeping that 29 turning on the hills.
Have you ever toured loaded? I'd like to see you say that with 60lbs
of gear going up an 8% grade.
dbrower
IRD makes 10sp 11-34 cassettes. http://www.interlocracing.com/cassettes_steel.html
I'm happy enough with mine, though it's heavey and doesn't shift as
well as a Shimano or SRAM.
Rich folks can get a very expensive SRAM XX 11-32.
-dB
landotter
There's nothing wrong with walking a bike from time to time,
especially when you're rolling so slow as to fear tipping over.
Hank
Again I ask, would you say the same about pushing a bike with front &
rear panniers up a steep pass? "Walking a bike" is NOT the correct
terminology for that.
A 20 inch gear at 50 rpm gives you about 4mph, which is not in any
danger of falling over, and moves you with much less effort than
trying to push by hand something that handles more like a dead
motorcycle than a bike.
JG
pounds is way too much for most people. I'd be more worried about
_descending_ an 8% grade with that!-) You want to avoid steep climbs
when touring and usually you have choices.
Actually, that's less than 3mph, and getting dicey...
Michael Press
<54c005bc-a813-4e9d...@31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
Fred <fsd...@gmail.com> wrote:
26 cog chain wheel, but that does not get you much.
Are you doing loaded touring? Then get an entirely
new crank set with a 22 cog chain wheel, and a 32
cog gear on your cassette.
--
Michael Press
Nate Nagel
yes, I'm thinking new crankset (or at least all three rings) as well.
however I've found that the Shimano triple front ders. don't work at all
on smaller than 50T big chainrings, at least not on my bike (48/36/26)
I'm currently using a Campy front but that doesn't help if he's using
STI. I think IRD makes a front der. that is supposed to match up to
Shimano indexing and smaller triple setups? That was my next thing to
try if the Campy didn't work but I didn't have to.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Brian Huntley
It's doable, though. Many, many touring bikes have a low gear around
18-20 gear-inches, and I haven't had to push my bike for some years.
Pushing is harder than it looks.
landotter
Keeps the beer safe when you're pushing a Kroon with a wooden case of
glass bottle on the back up a cobble hill is what came to mind.
Brian Huntley
Well, sure, but that's "outside motivation."
thirty-six
You'd think that some sort of winch type device installed on the
vehicle could help here. It would be nice if it was self contained
and drove the rear wheel. Yet that's it a winching gear. 24 tooth
front and 40tooth rear. A chainring could be fixed to the spokes of
the rear wheel and the chain manually installed by diengagement from a
hatch plate design derailler.
dusto...@mac.com
"Choices". There is "touring" and then there are the other "tourings".
The OP's bike would have suited me pretty well for camping trips,
mostly on well-paved roads, I did back in the day in the Colorado
Rockies. Not enough top end for playing amongst the Winnebagos, but
good.
The OP wants something different, and lower.
OK: The tiny inner ring with keeper sounds good to me from the
standpoint of having as many close-together gear choices as possible
in the intermediate range, for use on less-severe terrain and maybe
harder riding surfaces. I have a "10 speed" setup-- actually old 8sp
Campy Ergo-- with a 30/42/52 triple, and 12 or 13 (I forget)/23
cassette. I'm carrying my camping gear internally, so to speak, these
days. Meaning, that's a low enough low to get us up a certain local
(short) 19% grade, makes the lesser "steeps" more enjoyable (ahem),
and that 42 is sweet most everywhere else around Austin, Texas. (In no
small part because I used the "standard" 42 inner ring for 20 years or
so, before going to a 39!)
That's what suits me, and I'm estimating just a smaller inner ring,
not going to a MTB crank, would be useful for camping tours, depending
on total load. A 26 inner ring was suggested by users, in a previous
discussion here, for good functioning with a "road triple" front
derailleur. Along with a 39t middle, keeping the 52, that might be
enough for me as I am all these years later (<g>) to "comfortably" do
a camping trip in the Rockies, where the steepest grades are mostly
about 7% on "main roads" in Co, at least. With maybe 26t largest cog,
although the 23 might be enough, and I could eliminate one or more
two- or three-tooth jumps between cogs by not going to a bigger "low"
cog. BTW, I see on the back of a Shimano 10sp cassette box here that S-
No makes some potentially very useful combinations that could really
work to "center" close-together gear ranges, including a 16-27. Put
some big meat on the crank, that could work <g>. 26/39/54 with that
cassette would give a 26" low, 91" high, lots of tight-as-you-can-get
ratios in between.
Just sayin', the "10 speed" thing isn't just "for selling", and with a
smaller inner ring, might work for the OP just fine. --D-y
Fred
wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion. I am going to try the smaller sugino
chainring and the device to prevent the chain from falling off the
lowest cog.
Fred
JG
a smaller inner ring, might work for the OP just fine." --D-y
I tend to disagree, for a number of reasons. I crossed the US with a
carefully choose wide-range ½ step (49-44x13-31). I ended up
not bothering with the double shifts in the climbs and really used
only 7 gears. All things being equal, I'd always choose 14 over 7
gears, but 7 or 8 speeds is a much more sensible choice in terms of
robustness and durability.
Likewise, more high gears are better than more low gears, but 52:15
just about equals a 42:12, and extra gears end up as convenient
redundancies.
Finally, a triple isn't about more gears. The middle ring is
completely redundant. It's about convenient shifting patterns.
Putting a 24T and a chain watcher on, makes the front shifting as
difficult as a compact, without the advantage of simplicity.
datakoll
rear derays. See Harris Cyclery, Loose Screws for a 32 rear cog
(34?-36?) and consult Sheldon Brown on rear cog sets via Harris
Cyclery: there's a chart. Universal Cycles may have rear cogs.
what's next after the 12 ? maybe toss the 12 AND ADD THE 32-34-36.
Please buy a rear spoke guard from the LBS.
thirty-six
Select the smallest front sprocket and the largest rear sprocket when
pedalling by using the shift levers. OR:
Put a knife through your rear tyre. ; )
dusto...@mac.com
> "Just sayin', the "10 speed" thing isn't just "for selling", and with
> a smaller inner ring, might work for the OP just fine." --D-y
>
> I tend to disagree, for a number of reasons. I crossed the US with a
> carefully choose wide-range ½ step (49-44x13-31). I ended up
> not bothering with the double shifts in the climbs and really used
> only 7 gears. All things being equal, I'd always choose 14 over 7
> gears, but 7 or 8 speeds is a much more sensible choice in terms of
> robustness and durability.
You don't have to cross the US to need a twiddler low gear. IOW, The
Transcontinental is a notable achievement, "sounds like fun", but for
instance:
<http://www.tourdashugel.com/history.htm>
That ride is @100 miles, 14,600' (on one particular year's course)
total climbing, accomplished via linking Austin's 20% hills-- being
fully aware that many riding areas could out-hugel Austin with ease,
the point is: "you'd likely want a tiny little gear at some point or
another" <g>. Without getting more than what, 25 miles from home for
those who live in ATex?
The rest of this stuff is tossed back and forth. What works for the
individual, works ("Write your own bible and be happy with it!" <g>).
My 30-42-52 triple with 12 or 13-23 cassette works great (for me)-- it
has only malfunctioned once after a short rain ride put an amazing
amount of grit into the works without "showing" on the rest of the
bike. I've ridden it lots in "fast" groups of racer (and ret. racer)
dudes, and there is no liability due to "complication", at all, IME.
It lets me spin up the hard hills, which makes being dropped so much
more comfortable, don't you know...
(FWIW Dept): We were talking on the group ride yesterday, discussing
Hugel (held the day before) with some who had ridden and others who
had not. I'm not a Hugel-ite (yet) but it is out there, and if there
ever was a ride for a triple with a twiddler inner ring, Hugel is it.
IMHO.
--D-y
datakoll
larger rear cog is not. Is there an arguable reason for that ?
datakoll
and guardrails are an east coast liberal concept like execution with
injection.
dusto...@mac.com
> a bias is read here where changing a CR is the solution but adding a
> larger rear cog is not. Is there an arguable reason for that ?
"You talking to me?"
I like lots of gears close together ("suits me for my use"). Changing
to a larger rear cog means more 2-tooth or larger gaps between cogs.
"The" solution? Not for everyone; have I not been clear about
"preference" (v. proscription)?
If not, "diff-ernt stokes fer diff-rent folks". 'Kay?
--D-y
datakoll
IRD ? replacement cogs are thin, narrow enough for a 10 speed chain ?
The touring double CR bought from Nashbar replacing a 53/? with a 48?
was more effective with touring loads, highly desirable in 5 teeth. I
too find difficulty writing 10 speed chain and touring
dusto...@mac.com
My bikes are SS, 8sp, 9sp. I toured on 7sp, because it was the early
80's when I toured <g>.
The OP has 10. If people who are using 10sp for "touring" by whatever
description, and chains are breaking or drivetrains get nubby before
you get to the coast even the first lap, OK. Point taken. Need some
testimony here. --D-y
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, I asked all. What you wrote is true and I should look at that more
closely, new to 3CR's. I assume Shimano tested and tested so the 10 is
perfect then there's the math for weight over several days or one long
day in hot weather. But going with "friction shifters are better for
touring because," the 10 is a bit weenie.
dusto...@mac.com
And I didn't <g> when I should have.
> What you wrote is true
Thanks, I try <g>.
> and I should look at that more
> closely, new to 3CR's. I assume Shimano tested and tested so the 10 is
> perfect then there's the math for weight over several days or one long
> day in hot weather. But going with "friction shifters are better for
> touring because," the 10 is a bit weenie.
There might be a demo ride available for you-- or better yet, a rental
(so you can thrash it some, looking for Fatal Flaws) with the current
manufacture ShimaNo triple gear from some group or another on it.
In the Amazon, friction rules! <g> However, the Amazon, like friction
shifting, is not for everyone...
--D-y
datakoll
So far, the shift into lowlow is more abrupt, problematic than the
same with an 8 by 2CR on my cheap asian import where the shift is
kindy slinky you know up and around.
basically, I say a short prayer before with the 29er so reviewing the
gear formula is needed.
check the cable tensions right ?
datakoll
forgot my point: the shift into lowlow on the 8 by 2 - IS with
friction shifters !
dusto...@mac.com
I wondered, with my Campy Ergo/Racing T front derailleur.
But found prayer to be unnecessary <g>.
The Campy left Ergo lever isn't "triple specific", no detents, thumb
button and finger lever just click all the way through the travel.
What I get in use seems pretty foolproof as far as selection; the
extra travel compared to a double is noticeable, for sure, but it just
kind of gets added into the range of button/lever movement, if you
will; again, no problem with overshooting and going directly to the
inner ring from the outside, big ring. Or just plain dumping "off".
Also, my setup is 39t middle ring to a 30 inner. Maybe not as much of
a jump as you have on your setup?
(One reason I've been specific about what gear and gears I've been
running while extolling the Wonders of the Road Triple <g>, I only
know what I've been using.)
This might be a "threshold" thing, repeating that posters to earlier
threads recommended a 26t inner ring as the smallest they found "good"
with a triple that had a 39t middle ring and (IMS) 52-ish (not a 48)
big ring. IOW, it's a fair jump but not "abrupt" IME, going 39 to 30,
or back up.
Friction shifting, betting dollars to doughnuts here, is almost
undoubtedly *not* the cause of the chain dumping problem my old Nuovo
Record Triple (36-42-53) had when going from middle (or outer, if
careless!) to inner ring, and that was only a 6-tooth jump for the
middle.
It worked "OK", but you definitely had to feed it on there. Being young
(er) and much fitter was a definite plus, for the simple reason that
this made shifting onto the 36 less common. "Prayer optional" <g>.
--D-y
datakoll
Your rig prob shifts better than the $100 8 speed shimano on the Dog
but the shifting tho magical and necessary for off road or gravel road
is bottom end, mechanical.
For road touring, the friction shifter allows 'playing' the shift as
'playing' a stringed instrument. Then less complexity, almost fool
proof with the friction shifters rules the shifter mechanisms out as
choice equipment in touring. Not play touring but real time out on the
road touring.
First off tho, when someone asks low gears touring what ? getta spoke
protector and seat tube chain off nubbin.
then check the expletive deleted before riding.
datakoll
We hope you haven't scrapped the new bike. Large bottom end cogs may
be out of stock now at season's end but be back in the spring at Loose
Screws and Harris. Buy two, the spoke protector and seat tube nubbin
maybe not the deda the other one that's adjustable with a hose clamp.
But with the 39, take a look at fattening the cluster's middle with
cogs suiting your pedal power and chosen terrain, maybe up or down
with two cogs closely matched.
dusto...@mac.com
> THE monodog has a 42-?-22 with the 22 connected to a 34T low cog.
> Your rig prob shifts better than the $100 8 speed shimano on the Dog
> but the shifting tho magical and necessary for off road or gravel road
> is bottom end, mechanical.
> For road touring, the friction shifter allows 'playing' the shift as
> 'playing' a stringed instrument. Then less complexity, almost fool
> proof with the friction shifters rules the shifter mechanisms out as
> choice equipment in touring. Not play touring but real time out on the
> road touring.
That 8sp Ergo right lever went years and years with no attention at
all. In contrast to DT friction shifters which liked an occasional
service, especially after rain rides. And sometimes had to be screwed
down tight to hold the chain on the big cog.
I was an able "wire player", maybe not first chair, but able. Slap
shifts, double shifts, skipping cogs I did it and enjoyed it, too.
I like Ergo a lot better. The new Campy shifters are said to have done
away with the designs that caused reliability problems.
If I were on one coast (USA), headed toward the other end of the
country, on surface roads, I'd use new Ergo if I had the choice.
No problem here with people who want to use friction-- I understand
the attraction.
Again, there's a wide range of gear to be had. I use what I like <g>.
I wonder how Fred is doing... Fred?
--D-y
datakoll
dusto...@mac.com
> http://www.nashbar.com/bikes//Product_10053_10052_261034_-1___
> ???
You meant OUCH, perhaps-- $425? for just the levers?
I guess I'll just keep replacing g springs for the time being at
least.
(remember, the OP-- Fred, and I wonder how he's doing-- already has
10sp)
--D-y
datakoll
datakoll
> http://www.thethirdhand.com/index.cgi UNGH BERTHWACK EMBOLISIA BUNG
> BUNG
http://www.thethirdhand.com/index.cgi?c=Shifter&sc=Road%20Shifters&tc=Friction&id=15624857497
AND available new used somewhere ...
datakoll
> On Nov 19, 7:07 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.thethirdhand.com/index.cgi UNGH BERTHWACK EMBOLISIA BUNG
> > BUNG
>
>
> AND available new used somewhere ...
yawl could use the rest for a loaf of bread
dusto...@mac.com
Lotta bread = lotta bread, d-man.
TinyURL leads to ebay auction fro Simplex Retroshifters:
Great function until they broke which mine never did. But not the part
to have for too-ring. Some went bye-bye pretty quick IMS.
--D-y
datakoll
The cheap asian import rode here is upgraded to 21stC specs BUT has
the original hi end Suntour friction shifters.
I luvum but usually don't need speed shifting on the road but do in
fact need speed shifting once in a and off course that's fast enough.
\
BUT ! and a need for Brandtian Math arises...
figure friciton shifters vs the Ergo or hi end Shimano during road
bike speed competition. Every shift loses uh 10 feet ? how many shifts
per comp ? ground never made up.
Same goes for touring except the ground loss is in energy lost as 2
miles lost over a day is not much.
But add the hill factor, if yawl have a hill prob errrr course - in
ground not made up as speed lost climbing over a day
then the energy loss could be considerable especially during a multi
day hilly tour.
I have no experience with this, do you have a comment ?
and Fred ?
datakoll
was eaten by locals when looking for an LBS.
dusto...@mac.com
> figure friciton shifters vs the Ergo or hi end Shimano during road
> bike speed competition. Every shift loses uh 10 feet ? how many shifts
> per comp ? ground never made up.
> Same goes for touring except the ground loss is in energy lost as 2
> miles lost over a day is not much.
>
> But add the hill factor, if yawl have a hill prob errrr course - in
> ground not made up as speed lost climbing over a day
>
> then the energy loss could be considerable especially during a multi
> day hilly tour.
>
> I have no experience with this, do you have a comment ?
Haven't thought of this in the "touring" area, but heck yeah. I mean,
it might not "matter" for casual riding or touring (or maybe for
racing, either <g>) but Ergo/S-No/ScRAM brifter shifting is a little
quicker, at least, and you can keep your hands on the bars while you
shift. A mention of "barends" in the cause of saving electrons-- down,
barend boys (and girls)!!!
I like Ergo partly because low gears (and others) hold very well if
adjustment is good, and adjustment isn't difficult, as far as
centering the chain on whatever sprocket they tell you to center it
on; you can shift under power (except onto the small ring on a
triple-- tension, yes, but not "power"), and shift while standing up,
although I always ease back the power at what seems like the right
time to save a little wear and tear, with not very much "finesse"
being required for any of it.
Like when you're tired and it's late and you're trying to find a place
to camp before dark.
> and Fred ?
Fred is a smart person. He's busy riding his bicycle!
--D-y
Fred
This is Fred. I am still here but I am kind of lost. What is an Ergo
shifter brifter and what does it have to do with a touring bike?
Fred
datakoll
he's new at it.
the ten cog chain is usually thought of as inadequate, an 8 cog chain
more durable. From there the discussion goes to index shifting eg what
your bike has and the Ergo, an Italian not Japanese company and the
ancient durable but sssslow friction shifters which are levers for
each deray. There may not be detents like a fretless guitar, the 5-8
rear cogs are in the lever's travel but not indexed. Very reliable but
slower than what you have.
the two opinions are generally opposing schools of thought or approach
to cycling: like aluminum vs steel. The lever people tend to be poorer
or less spendy than the index people - its $25 vs $400. The latter
breaks, the former doesn't.
Then you need to think about....
go an tour... you find out ! hehehhehhe
thirty-six
Saves weight, from your wallet. It assists in encouraging you to get
off your bike in the mountains to take in the air and the view by
failing to shift down as you get to the steep bit. If you select this
option take good walking shoes, just in case.
dusto...@mac.com
Campagnolo calls its combination brake/shifter levers "Ergo levers".
BR-ake lever/sh-IFTER combination. "Brifter", as a contraction.
Touring is anything from "survival", an exercise in rolling self-
sufficiency that might last for weeks, and include any sort of route,
to "plastic (credit card), with a follow/sag vehicle", "every night in
a room, all or nearly all good pavement riding", and anything in
between.
Equipment choices made to suit use, of course.
Near the beginning of this thread, "10 speed is for selling" was
offered up as a sentiment. I'm pointing out that it just all depends
on what kind of touring is on hand when it comes to choosing gear. --
D-y
AMuzi
Campagnolo shift lever integrated into brake lever:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/ERGOTOUR.JPG
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hugh Morgan's touring bike after riding against the wind ?
dusto...@mac.com
> Campagnolo shift lever integrated into brake lever:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/ERGOTOUR.JPG
I agree with "upgraded", for appropriate use <g>.
It's really really hard to find a picture of Campy Ergo levers that
shows the thumb buttons:
<http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='0535-00'>
Thumbs are "smaller" (big ring to smaller ring or rings) on the left
hand side, "bigger" (from larger cogs to smaller, higher gears) on the
right lever.
Finger levers (hiding behind the brake levers in the linked-to photo)
go the other way <g>.
Only confusing "sometimes". --D-y
datakoll
are Ergo shifters superior to Shimano's ???
dusto...@mac.com
> are Ergo shifters superior to Shimano's ???
Hell yes.
Now let us turn to page 27 in the hymnal...
The thumb buttons on Campy can be very uncomfortable. I flirted with
apostasy until I found a handlebar that gave me a place to put my
hands where the buttons weren't poking me.
I still should change because my favorite hand position is "around the
grips" and those buttons are smack in the way.
The "rebuild" thing is: You can't rebuild Shimano, you have to rebuild
Campy. At least the old brifters you do, and will <g>. The new ones,
maybe not.
Function? I've only ridden ShimaNo briefly. Ultegra, Do-a-race.
Completely different feel, I could get used to it I'm sure. Shifts
fine. Brakes work fine.
Only real (BS off for a moment) drawback to S-No in my book is the
brake caliper release. The Campy buttons at the brake lever just let
the lever open further, they don't change the cable length
("effectively") like the Neanderthal flippers-on-the-caliper ShimaNo
QR's do. So, if you forget to "close the QR" after opening it, with
Campy your brakes still work full strength ("as set") while the S-No's
don't. I don't know if a "handle button" is feasible on Shimano
brifters but if so they need to make the change starting a long, long
time ago. --D-y