Need new helmet

[Mark Cleary]

So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have to add a new mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one. Tell me that basically they all protect about the same. I cannot see paying 5 to ten times the price if they do that same job basically.

Ignoring the fashion I can get a Bell Axle at Walmart for $25. I can get Giro $50 at Dick's and a Giro MPS for $70 a Dicks. Please give me some advice. I suppose Andrew might have a thought about it since he probably at least has them, although my thought is that is only for convenience of the place, not so much a priority. I am a sell out going to Wally World.
Deacon Mark

[Roger Meriman]

Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have to add a new
> mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one. Tell me that basically
> they all protect about the same. I cannot see paying 5 to ten times the
> price if they do that same job basically.

Protection is equal at least they all pass same tests, this said some have
movable frame that is supposed to help with rotation injuries. As with all
the data is inconclusive.

>
> Ignoring the fashion I can get a Bell Axle at Walmart for $25. I can get
> Giro $50 at Dick's and a Giro MPS for $70 a Dicks. Please give me some
> advice. I suppose Andrew might have a thought about it since he probably
> at least has them, although my thought is that is only for convenience of
> the place, not so much a priority. I am a sell out going to Wally World.
> Deacon Mark
>

Realistically what you pay for is a less bulky helmet, ie less of mushroom
head!

And being better ventilation plus some better fitting.

Definitely a try before you buy sort of thing though at the shop.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

You're a grown up . Make your decision on that.

I will say that helmet manufacturers advise 3 years which
seems more for churning than safety. Riders replace helmets
usually when they are filthy or smelly, but also after a
significant impact if that should happen.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Mark Cleary]

In my case I took the old mirror off and some of the plastic broke off where I had it glued in and zipped tied. The foam under it is fine but a way the plastic broke suggest to me that it is a bit brittle with age. Also the band that you tighten up after getting it on slips of you try to really get it tight. It will drop back a a couple of notches on holding.
Deacon Mark

[Frank Krygowski]

The thin plastic outer shell is cosmetic, although it provides a little
UV shading of the styrofoam. Not that it matters. Styrofoam is forever,
almost.

As Andrew said, manufacturers recommend buying a new one after three
years. That advice is good for manufacturers selling things, not for
customers. The guy behind America's most prominent helmet promotion (and
mandating) website applied the certification test to an ancient helmet,
something like 20 years old. It passed.

I wore helmets for some years, although never for every ride. Then I got
curious about the data regarding helmet effectiveness, cycling's brain
injury risk, etc. and I dug really deeply into the facts. What I learned:

Fact #1 is the great risk of serious brain injury while bicycling is a
myth. Per mile traveled, pedestrians are more at risk. Nationally,
bicycling barely contributes to the count of brain injury fatalities.
Cyclists are roughly 0.6% of brain injury deaths. Pedestrians and people
descending stairs have more need of helmets.

Fact #2 is the popularity of helmets has had no discernible effect on
bike brain injuries or deaths. Well, except cycling concussions have
risen quite a lot with the adoption of helmets. Lack of benefit is not
surprising if you look into the ridiculously low certification
standards. There are many claims that crash victims showing up at ER
have less brain injury if they wore helmets. Less well known is that
people in helmets are much more likely to show up at ER than people
without them. (And no, it's not because the others have died.) So actual
protective effects are, at best, very questionable - despite the many
"My helmet saved my life!!!!" stories.

But you're probably going to buy a helmet anyway, so:

Fact #3: The more expensive helmets cost more because there was more
design and testing done to make them lighter, thinner and cooler (in
both senses of the word) while still passing the certification test. But
expensive helmets tend to barely pass the test, compared to cheaper
heavier thicker ones that are actually more protective.

For protection, buy a cheap helmet. And remind yourself it's probably
not going to do you any good. Ride carefully, take no extra risks.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 15:40:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/12/2023 2:56 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:

I've never owned a bike helmet except for the ones I bought for the
grandkids, however I'd never go around sticking my nose in other
people business and advise against them....

[Tom Kunich]

I recommend a Bontrager Wavecell helmet. The weakness of a foam helmet is that the foam is made to pass the certification test and not to actually protect your head. Trek actually looked into it and use 3D print process to make the Wavecell which collapses at a rate that reduces the possibility of a concussion whereas foam protects against skull fracture. I bought mine in a Trek shop for under $100. The material itself doesn't need to be a MIPS helmet to perform like one.

Since bike shops are crashing one after the other and most American bike manufacturers outside of Trek are going out of business, these helmets may sell in the shops for more now.

A helmet is designed to reduce the impact of a fall-over accident. This is ALL it can do. And since that's all it can do, it is best to reduce the impact which causes concussions which are the overwhelming majority of serious injuries. Believe me, you DO NOT want a serious concussion and while a Wavecell helmet may not prevent it at least Trek is trying which is more than other manufacturers are doing.

[Tom Kunich]

You are highly unlikely to fall off of a Catrike, Wear a cycling cap.

And Krygowski as usual doesn't have a clue. We have gone through this about every year since I wrote the original study. No, a helmet is not going to save your life because cycling deaths almost all come from collisions with automobiles and include multiple serious injuries. Helmet are of no use in these cases.

But the most common injuries are from fall overs. or other low speed (or even high speed where impact is moderated with your hands, arms and body) falls. while foam helmets are not properly designed for much protection since it was believed that helmeted deaths were from skull fractures which in fact are very rare. The human being naturally protects his head in falls, concussions are very common. This is from the brain tearing loose from its moorings in the skull and slapping against the opposite side. While the tears heal with little problems the striking of the brain at speed causes brain damage.

I have done considerable study of helmets since being the safety director of the American Federation of Motorcyclists (AFM) including going down to the headquarters of Bell and watching the testing process. They did a good job so of course the government increased Bell's conclusions by something like 20% in the belief that it would make a more "protective" helmet - instead it made them more dangerous by increasing the density of the foam.

We don't need any more BS https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html

A couple of years ago I again checked the conclusions against modern numbers and the relationship was the same.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/12/2023 4:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> A helmet is designed to reduce the impact of a fall-over accident. This is ALL it can do.

And as I've mentioned before, I had a friend who (last year, IIRC) died
in a zero speed, fall-over accident. He hit his head and died of a brain
injury despite his helmet. His wife believes he couldn't free his foot
from his clipless pedal.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 13:30:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Like I said, I've never worn one when I was riding two wheelers.

[Tom Kunich]

Krygowski is correct that people wearing helmets are more likely to be careless. This is especially true of MTB riders. But the majority of people that wear helmets do not change how careful they are. So in that case they do provide protection. (I'm positive that Frank is going to know someone that died falling over while wearing a helmet.)

In any case, helmets are not a panacea and the VERY small numbers of people showing up in ER's while wearing a helmet means nothing more than EVERYONE except the nut cases like Frank wear helmets.

[Roger Meriman]

I’d note that after a hospitalisation if one isn’t around the story does
grow as folks try to rationalise it, and related folks seem to be disturbed
by the idea of mundane things able to kill/harm one.

I had all sorts of fantasies told me as what happened to me once I was up
and about, none true!

I’d also note that brain injury outcomes and injuries don’t neatly track
individuals or to put it another way some folks are killed or massively
disabled by mild events others walk away from quite frankly horrific
events.

I’m apparently had a good outcome considering my injuries, but it’s worth
noting that as a type we’re if not rare at least not common in terms of
folks like myself ie where one is disabled by it.

Ie one can overthink the risks and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

Like most of Krygowski's stories, I'd have to see some documentation
of that before I gave it any credence.

[AMuzi]

Mr Kunich was exactly correct.

We just don't know what the total force/impact to the brain
is in any given situation. Reduction from 3x fatal impact
to only 1.5x fatal impact is indeed reduction. And still fatal.

A guy can fall[1] a hundred times, taking much of the fall
on hands or shoulder and then one day he doesn't. I would
imagine your friend also had unremarkable spills before but
then one day he didn't.

[1]I'm thinking of a freestyle rider I know

[AMuzi]

Maybe unknowable.

A very good customer of many years was out with a small
group and their report was 'he just fell over and hit his
head and died instantly'.

Later autopsy reveled he suffered a massive aneurism burst
and then fell. Trouble is few deaths are autopsied now.

[John B.]

No, the argument makes perfect sense. If one person dies it logically
demonstrates that helmets are of no use at all.

But using the same logic, the death of some 932 individuals while
riding a bicycle in 2020 must demonstrate that riding a bicycle is
nearly a thousand times more dangerious.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

If I were going to ride a two wheel bike, ass up, head down at 25 MPH
for 50 miles on public roads, I think a helmet might be a good idea...
but I'm not going to do that.. even if I could.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 05:45:24 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Not for me, not many cars on the bike trails, although, last year, a
woman got hit and killed on the trail I often ride. She was crossing
the off ramp to a highway. On the other hand, I see vagrants more and
more along the bike trails. Makes me glad I've got a gun.

[John B.]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 11:56:20 -0700 (PDT), Mark Cleary
<deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:

Try
https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a20012793/best-bike-helmets-reviews/
for more information.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Cycling/Research-and-resources/Safety-research
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2019-DCA18SS002-BMG-4-MitigatingHeadInjury.pdf
https://firstaidforlife.org.uk/cycle-helmets-do-they-really-save-lives/

So... the government of Australia, The National Transportation Safety
Board, National Library of Medicine, and several qualified others, say
one thing while an individual intent on proving his own thesis says
something different???

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Federation_of_Motorcyclists
Strange isn't it that a list of the AFM directors
https://www.afmracing.org/contact-us/board-of-directors
and a list of members
https://www.afmracing.org/about-the-afm/member-roster-current
seem to be missing the name "Krygowski".

Must have been a typo... do you think?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Just about all active sports, both armature and professional, require
the players to wear helmets, and the players do, without all the
moaning and groaning one hears on bicycle sites. :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:01:11 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

That's the spell checker missing a beat, again. "armature" was
supposed to have been spelled "amateur" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

More people die falling in bathtubs than from riding
bicycles and yet few (if any) bathe helmeted.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's also true of staircases. When, oh when, will we finally get
helmet racks at each staircase?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/12/2023 6:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:08:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 16:38:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/12/2023 4:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A helmet is designed to reduce the impact of a fall-over accident. This is ALL it can do.
>>>
>>> And as I've mentioned before, I had a friend who (last year, IIRC) died
>>> in a zero speed, fall-over accident. He hit his head and died of a brain
>>> injury despite his helmet. His wife believes he couldn't free his foot
>> >from his clipless pedal.
>>
>> Like most of Krygowski's stories, I'd have to see some documentation
>> of that before I gave it any credence.
>
> No, the argument makes perfect sense. If one person dies it logically
> demonstrates that helmets are of no use at all.

In the many years I've participated in this groups discussions, I've
learned there are people who understand and respond intelligently to
data; and there are people who don't.

The latter are prone to vapid statements like "Aw, you can show anything
with numbers." Those people tend to be more impressed with anecdotes.

When my friend died, I thought "Well, there's an anecdote for them."

Back to data: What would you like to see again? Because I've posted
reams of numbers and citations over the years, and reams of critiques of
pro-helmet papers.

Tom gave a link to summary data comparing bicycling vs. pedestrian
fatalities over the years. The bicycling fatality count is always far
lower than the pedestrian fatality count. But more important, there is
no apparent benefit during the period when helmet use took off for
bicyclists. Even then, the pedestrian count was dropping at least as
fast as the bicycling fatality count.

And BTW, if a guy (such as you, John) refuses to learn anything from
good data, and if the same guy refuses to learn anything from anecdotes,
I think we can simply say that guy refuses to learn anything.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

John, you're getting worse each day. It wasn't me who claimed any
position with AFM.

Can you get your wife to help you understand what's posted here? Will
she help you take notes?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Statistics Frank.

Lou

[John B.]

Well, that sounds likely. After all far more people take a bath then
ride bicycles.

And, according to one site burns from scalding water were less common,
but generally much more serious, resulting in over 70 deaths each
year. In addition, over 100 people drown every year in bathtubs.

There are innumerable sites that talk about safety in the bathroom,
grab bars and so on. Grab bars on bicycles?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 22:39:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/12/2023 6:45 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:08:47 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 16:38:11 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/12/2023 4:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A helmet is designed to reduce the impact of a fall-over accident. This is ALL it can do.
>>>>
>>>> And as I've mentioned before, I had a friend who (last year, IIRC) died
>>>> in a zero speed, fall-over accident. He hit his head and died of a brain
>>>> injury despite his helmet. His wife believes he couldn't free his foot
>>> >from his clipless pedal.
>>>
>>> Like most of Krygowski's stories, I'd have to see some documentation
>>> of that before I gave it any credence.
>>
>> No, the argument makes perfect sense. If one person dies it logically
>> demonstrates that helmets are of no use at all.
>
>In the many years I've participated in this groups discussions, I've
>learned there are people who understand and respond intelligently to
>data; and there are people who don't.
>
>The latter are prone to vapid statements like "Aw, you can show anything
>with numbers." Those people tend to be more impressed with anecdotes.

Nobody is impressed with your anecdotes.

>When my friend died, I thought "Well, there's an anecdote for them."
>
>Back to data: What would you like to see again? Because I've posted
>reams of numbers and citations over the years, and reams of critiques of
>pro-helmet papers.
>
>Tom gave a link to summary data comparing bicycling vs. pedestrian
>fatalities over the years. The bicycling fatality count is always far
>lower than the pedestrian fatality count.

Oh, good grief... could that be because there are many, many more
pedestrians than there are biyclists?

>But more important, there is
>no apparent benefit during the period when helmet use took off for
>bicyclists. Even then, the pedestrian count was dropping at least as
>fast as the bicycling fatality count.

Apples and oranges.... Understanding statistical data seems to not
be Krygowski's strong suit.

>And BTW, if a guy (such as you, John) refuses to learn anything from
>good data, and if the same guy refuses to learn anything from anecdotes,
>I think we can simply say that guy refuses to learn anything.

If a guy, such as you, Krygowski, refuses to accept that coorelation
does not imply causation, then we can simply assume that you're going
to hook onto any "data" that supports your agenda, even if it's
irrelevent.

[Tom Kunich]

You wouldn't want to discover that the Covid-19 vaccines are responsible for most of the excess deaths would you?

[Tom Kunich]

I knew he would do that. He had a friend that died wearing a helmet and therefore any benefits of a helmet are nullified. Somehow he is ALWAYS right and facts and data area always wrong.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 07:23:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:29:08?PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:38:16?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 6/12/2023 4:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > >
>> > > A helmet is designed to reduce the impact of a fall-over accident. This is ALL it can do.
>> > And as I've mentioned before, I had a friend who (last year, IIRC) died
>> > in a zero speed, fall-over accident. He hit his head and died of a brain
>> > injury despite his helmet. His wife believes he couldn't free his foot
>> > from his clipless pedal.
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> Statistics Frank.
>>
>> Lou
>
>I knew he would do that. He had a friend that died wearing a helmet and therefore any benefits of a helmet are nullified. Somehow he is ALWAYS right and facts and data area always wrong.

Oh yes, and the guy couldn't get his foot unhooked from the pedal,
too. I'll bet he made up tons of stories to tell to his students.
I'll bet they all knew it was bullshit and were laughing at him.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 09:01:11 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The simple solution is for everyone to wear whatever they want on
their heads and mind their own business.

[AMuzi]

+1 to that.

[Frank Krygowski]

I've given plenty over the years, Lou. Do you want a review?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Actually I had this happen to me back in the day of pedals with toe
straps. A convertible with the top down and 4 or 5 sweet young things
aboard, waving and smiling. I rode right up beside them at a stop sign
and realized just as I had stopped that the toe straps weren't loose
and rather majestically, I thought, just tipped over. The girls drove
off leaving me laying there.

But.... My head didn't hit the ground.
Years later I crashed and hit the ground hard enough to break my
pelvis... but my head didn't hit the ground...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

That's the solution to a great many problems (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Of course there are more pedestrians than bicyclists! But with
pedestrian fatalities well over 7000 per year, should they not get more
attention than the thousand or so bicyclists?

Furthermore, the fatality rate _per mile traveled_ is far higher for
pedestrians than bicyclists. John Pucher of Rutgers University's paper
_Making Walking and Cycling Safer..._, he perhaps inadvertently gives
data showing American cycling is over three times safer than walking
(362 pedestrian fatalities per billion km, vs. only 109 fatalities per
billion km for cyclists). Similar data has come out of Britain,
Australia and other nations. Yet so many people are tremendously timid
about bicycling!

>> But more important, there is
>> no apparent benefit during the period when helmet use took off for
>> bicyclists. Even then, the pedestrian count was dropping at least as
>> fast as the bicycling fatality count.

Look at the link Tom posted:
https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html
Bike helmet use was surging fastest in the 1990s. Yet during that time,
pedestrian deaths were dropping at a faster rate than bicyclist deaths,
despite the scandalous lack of walking helmets! There is no bike helmet
benefit apparent, and that fact continues to this day.

BTW, It's strange that someone who identifies as such a rugged
individualist, who claims nobody should give anyone instruction, and who
claims to not care what I say ...

It's strange that such a person is so compelled to argue against me when
I point out that the helmet mania is a farce, that cycling is not
particularly risky, and that people should be free to ride without them.

Florida seems to be a land of bad logic.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:19:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski

More irrelevant data from Krygowski, RBT's resident irrelevant data
poster...

Time is a factor....

People spend a lot more time walking x miles than they do riding them,
dummy

>Australia and other nations. Yet so many people are tremendously timid
>about bicycling!

Thousands of bicyclists riding every day. I never saw one I perceived
as being timid, but I have heard of people being afraid to use SPDs.

>>> But more important, there is
>>> no apparent benefit during the period when helmet use took off for
>>> bicyclists. Even then, the pedestrian count was dropping at least as
>>> fast as the bicycling fatality count.
>
>Look at the link Tom posted:
>https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html
>Bike helmet use was surging fastest in the 1990s. Yet during that time,
>pedestrian deaths were dropping at a faster rate than bicyclist deaths,
>despite the scandalous lack of walking helmets! There is no bike helmet
>benefit apparent, and that fact continues to this day.
>
>BTW, It's strange that someone who identifies as such a rugged
>individualist, who claims nobody should give anyone instruction,

Who claimed that?

>and who
>claims to not care what I say ...

As for me, I find some of what you say to be very entertaining...

>It's strange that such a person is so compelled to argue against me when
>I point out that the helmet mania is a farce, that cycling is not
>particularly risky, and that people should be free to ride without them.

I don't argue with you since it would be a waste of my valuable time.
I do, however, often find myself laughing at you.

>Florida seems to be a land of bad logic.

Says they guy who continually argues that correlation is proof of
causation .

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 07:23:05 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I knew he would do that. He had a friend that died wearing
>a helmet and therefore any benefits of a helmet are nullified.
>Somehow he is ALWAYS right and facts and data area always wrong.

"35 Reasons Why You Should Always Wear A Helmet"
<https://www.boredpanda.com/reasons-why-wearing-helmet-is-important/>

A photo is worth more than a few dozen lines of rhetoric.

More of the same:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+helmet+after+crash&tbm=isch>

Your nice sounding article on bicycle helmets is from 2002.
<https://www.vehicularcyclist.com/kunich.html>
Trends have changed since 2002. Maybe it's time to update the data to
something more current?

"Pedestrians and bicyclists" (2021)
<https://www.iihs.org/topics/pedestrians-and-bicyclists>
"Pedestrian deaths have increased 80 percent since reaching their low
point in 2009..."

"There were 7,388 pedestrians and 961 bicyclists killed in 2021 and
approximately 60,000 pedestrians and 41,000 bicyclists injured in
motor vehicle crashes on public roadways in the United States.
Pedestrians comprised about 17 percent of crash deaths, and bicyclists
made up an additional 2 percent."

<https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists>
"Sixty-one percent of bicyclists killed in 2021 were not wearing
helmets. Helmet use was unknown for 24 percent."

"Among bicyclists ages 16 and older who were killed in 2021, 19
percent had blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) at or above 0.08
percent."

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 11:02:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>The simple solution is for everyone to wear whatever they want on
>their heads and mind their own business.

The ongoing debate was over MANDATORY bicycle helmet laws, which
REQUIRE wearing a helmet. The actual MANDATORY bicycle helmet laws
vary by state, age, "bicycle" type, etc.

"GET TO KNOW THE BIKE HELMET LAWS BY STATE" (Apr 30, 2020)
<https://www.explorethousand.com/blogs/journal/get-to-know-the-bike-helmet-laws-by-state>

There's also an insurance problem with helmet optional. Insurance
companies like to use not wearing a helmet to deny payment on claims

"In a Bike Accident Without a Helmet? Effects on Liability and
Compensation"
<https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/car-accident/bike-accident-without-helmet.html>
"Despite the lack of helmet laws in most states, insurance companies
often use a cyclist’s choice to ride without a helmet as an excuse to
reduce or deny bike accident claims."

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 10:13:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>There's also an insurance problem with helmet optional. Insurance
>companies like to use not wearing a helmet to deny payment on claims
>
>"In a Bike Accident Without a Helmet? Effects on Liability and
>Compensation"
><https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/car-accident/bike-accident-without-helmet.html>
>"Despite the lack of helmet laws in most states, insurance companies
>often use a cyclist’s choice to ride without a helmet as an excuse to
>reduce or deny bike accident claims."

Looks like you're ok to not wear a bicycle helmet in Florida:
<http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.2065.html>
316.2065(18)
"The failure of a person to wear a bicycle helmet (...) may not be
considered evidence of negligence or contributory negligence."

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/13/2023 1:13 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 11:02:15 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> The simple solution is for everyone to wear whatever they want on
>> their heads and mind their own business.
>
> The ongoing debate was over MANDATORY bicycle helmet laws, which
> REQUIRE wearing a helmet. The actual MANDATORY bicycle helmet laws
> vary by state, age, "bicycle" type, etc.
>
> "GET TO KNOW THE BIKE HELMET LAWS BY STATE" (Apr 30, 2020)
> <https://www.explorethousand.com/blogs/journal/get-to-know-the-bike-helmet-laws-by-state>
>
> There's also an insurance problem with helmet optional. Insurance
> companies like to use not wearing a helmet to deny payment on claims
>
> "In a Bike Accident Without a Helmet? Effects on Liability and
> Compensation"
> <https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/car-accident/bike-accident-without-helmet.html>
> "Despite the lack of helmet laws in most states, insurance companies
> often use a cyclist’s choice to ride without a helmet as an excuse to
> reduce or deny bike accident claims."

State helmet laws are mostly based on suggested text provided by helmet
promotion organizations, which doubtlessly receive funding from helmet
manufacturers. The classic example is Safe Kids Inc., which at least
used to list Bell as a "generous donor."

That boilerplate language includes phrases to forbid consideration of
helmet presence or absence. Of course, insurance adjusters and lawyers
are in the business of keeping their company's money, so they will
probably try every trick.

There was a case in Britain where a judge firmly tossed out that line of
reasoning. I'm guessing it set a legal precedent there.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 10:24:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 10:13:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>There's also an insurance problem with helmet optional. Insurance
>>companies like to use not wearing a helmet to deny payment on claims
>>
>>"In a Bike Accident Without a Helmet? Effects on Liability and
>>Compensation"
>><https://www.injuryclaimcoach.com/car-accident/bike-accident-without-helmet.html>
>>"Despite the lack of helmet laws in most states, insurance companies
>>often use a cyclist’s choice to ride without a helmet as an excuse to
>>reduce or deny bike accident claims."
>
>Looks like you're ok to not wear a bicycle helmet in Florida:
><http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.2065.html>
>316.2065(18)
>"The failure of a person to wear a bicycle helmet (...) may not be
>considered evidence of negligence or contributory negligence."

Sometimes, common sense prevails.. lately, more often in Florida than
some other places.

[Tom Kunich]

Unfortunately that is probably true which means that his students figured him not as a teacher but a bullshitter.

[Tom Kunich]

I simply don't know how many times I have to go through actual data without bullshit flying out of Krygowski's mouth a mile a minute to support his decision not to wear a helmet. Frank, I couldn't care less what you do but your continuous bullshit is just that.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29677686/

"A meta-analysis has been conducted of the effects of bicycle helmets on serious head injury and other injuries among crash involved cyclists. 179 effect estimates from 55 studies from 1989-2017 are included in the meta-analysis. The use of bicycle helmets was found to reduce head injury by 48%, serious head injury by 60%, traumatic brain injury by 53%, face injury by 23%, and the total number of killed or seriously injured cyclists by 34%."

Now because the numbers of cyclist injured badly enough to go to an ER is so low those statistics are somewhat biased but the general trend is unmistakable.

[Mark Cleary]

Well back to the thread I bought a Bell MIPS helmet at Walmart for $38 including tax. Then I put my new Third Eye Mirror on the helmet. The old Third Eye would not stay put the ball joint got loose over the years and nothing would help. So today with the helmet and new mirror it was fine. Frankly I did not notice any real difference on my head with the helmet. However the helmet mirror was great and stay right in place. I can no see without fiddling around all the time.

For the record I really like helmet mirrors and tend to live in the rear view mirror. I want to see what is behind be and my head does not look back too well. Even when I was younger never too flexible. As far as helmets I simply choose to wear one I don't care about statistics on what they do or do not do. They don't bother me and are not all hot. I have never had a situation where my head got hot.

The problem now is this rotten and painful neuroma on my right foot. It hurts pretty bad
Deacon Mark

[pH]

On 2023-06-12, Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have to add a new
> mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one. Tell me that basically
> they all protect about the same. I cannot see paying 5 to ten times the
> price if they do that same job basically.
>
> Ignoring the fashion I can get a Bell Axle at Walmart for $25. I can get
> Giro $50 at Dick's and a Giro MPS for $70 a Dicks. Please give me some
> advice. I suppose Andrew might have a thought about it since he probably
> at least has them, although my thought is that is only for convenience of
> the place, not so much a priority. I am a sell out going to Wally World.
> Deacon Mark

Not your question and my helmet is probably much older than yours but if you
wear glasses you will like the "take-a-look" brand mirror. I'm hooked on
them now.

pH in Aptos

[Ted Heise]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 20:26:40 -0000 (UTC),
pH <wNOS...@gmail.org> wrote:
> On 2023-06-12, Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have
> > to add a new mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one.

> Not your question and my helmet is probably much older than
> yours but if you wear glasses you will like the "take-a-look"
> brand mirror. I'm hooked on them now.

+1

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Lou Holtman]

Your example is anecdotal.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:18:02 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Now because the numbers of cyclist injured badly enough to go
>to an ER is so low those statistics are somewhat biased but
>the general trend is unmistakable.

Amazing. An estimated 60,000 ER visits per year is low?

Please show me a recent graph of where the "general trend" is
"unmistakable".

"Emergency Department Visits for Bicycle-Related Traumatic Brain
Injuries Among Children and Adults - United States, 2009 - 2018"
<https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7019a1.htm>
<https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7019a1-H.pdf>

"During 2009 - 2018, an estimated 596,972 ED visits for
bicycle-related TBIs occurred in the United States."

"Bicycling leads to the highest number of sport and recreation related
emergency department (ED) visits for traumatic brain injuries (TBIs)
in the United States"

"Policies that recommend the use of bicycle helmets have achieved
long-term sustained helmet use rates and a 20% - 55% reduction in
bicycle-related head injuries, including TBIs."

"NEISS Data Highlights - Calendar Year 2022"
<https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/NEISSQuery/Data/Highlights/2022/2022%20NEISS%20Data%20Highlights.pdf>
Under "sports and recreational equipment" the "Bicycles & Accessories"
show an estimated 405,411 injuries for 2022. That's the 2nd highest
in the "sports and recreational equipment" classification. At 445,642
injuries, "exercise and exercise equipment" is the highest.

If you're looking for reasons why the above numbers are useless, see
the notes at the bottom of Page 5.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 20:26:40 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

>Not your question and my helmet is probably much older than yours but if you
>wear glasses you will like the "take-a-look" brand mirror. I'm hooked on
>them now.

<https://takealookactive.com>
Approx $15 to $20 plus taxes and shipping.
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=take+a+look+mirror>

Beer-View Mirror:
<https://www.instructables.com/Beer-view-mirror/>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=beer+view+mirror&tbm=isch>

Other types of cycling rear view mirrors:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+rear+view+mirror&tbm=isch>

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:45:38 -0400, Catrike Rider

I wonder abut the rather frantic effort to convince others that
wearing a bike helmet is unnecessary when all of the agencies who keep
track of injuries in the U.S. tell a very different story and
recommend wearing helmets.

Is this a problem with a lack of knowledge? Or an insane effort to
prove "Look! Look at Me! I'm an authority!"

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 06:00:44 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

He's definately a look at me kind of guy..

"I've also acted as an editorial consultant on two well known books
dealing with those matters. I've written many articles on those and
related topics, and had some of them reprinted by publications in
other states and one other country. I no longer maintain the teaching
certification, but I've taught many cycling classes, I've written
scripts for and appeared in televised instructional spots, I've been
interviewed for newspapers and TV on such matters, and I've spoken (by
request) at city, regional and statewide gatherings."

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 19:50:06 -0400, Catrike Rider

And yet, I have found no accepted medical authority that says that
"helmets provide no benefit in preventing head injuries".

And, of course, his expertise regarding firearms is based on "I shot a
.22 once or twice", which, of course, qualifies him to make
disparaging remarks about gun enthusiasts. And then we have his thesis
that Black Pickups are the Devil's own vehicle.
I could go on, but what's the use?

It makes one wonder about this self appointed expert... doesn't it?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Of course it was. So are the many "My helmet saved my life!" fantasy tales.

As I said, I've posted reams of data. I eventually realized many people
are too innumerate to respond to data. They tend to give, and apparently
rely on, anecdotes.

When my friend died, I decided that was an anecdote probably more valid
than the "saved my life" tales.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

The Take-a-look is probably the commercial model that's closest to the
mirrors I make for myself and my wife.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Needless to say, I have. Examples are a local physician who took part in
local discussions on the topic. Another is a now-retired ER physician
whose state imposed a mandatory helmet law (MHL) for kids. He said the
law made no difference at all. I have correspondents in other countries
(including strict MHL Australia) who are extremely skeptical of the need
and/or the benefit of bike helmets.

You may want to read some of these papers:
https://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html

Recommending bike helmets is still very popular, of course. And once,
recommending large doses of vitamin C were very popular.

You're free to do both, of course. But I wonder, John, what did you wear
on your head while bicycling before 1975? How did it work out?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/13/2023 4:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:18:02 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Now because the numbers of cyclist injured badly enough to go
>> to an ER is so low those statistics are somewhat biased but
>> the general trend is unmistakable.
>
> Amazing. An estimated 60,000 ER visits per year is low?
>
> Please show me a recent graph of where the "general trend" is
> "unmistakable".
>
> "Emergency Department Visits for Bicycle-Related Traumatic Brain
> Injuries Among Children and Adults - United States, 2009 - 2018"
> <https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7019a1.htm>
> <https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7019a1-H.pdf>
>
> "During 2009 - 2018, an estimated 596,972 ED visits for
> bicycle-related TBIs occurred in the United States."
>
> "Bicycling leads to the highest number of sport and recreation related
> emergency department (ED) visits for traumatic brain injuries (TBIs)
> in the United States"

I've seen many claims that bicycling is a particularly dangerous "sport"
- or in this case, "sport and recreation." But those comparative lists
always seem to leave out two activities with much worse data.

Those are driving and walking.

"Wait!" some may say; "Driving and walking aren't sports!"

But there certainly is sport driving, both sanctioned and unsanctioned.
There is certainly sport walking. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racewalking

So what's the difference between those and bicycling?

For motoring, walking and cycling, huge portions of Americans
participate. This supplies a huge source of participants who may
occasionally get some injury; and in contrast to driving, people from
age 4 to 16 add to that number of participants. For all three, true
"sport" or competition is a minuscule portion of the participants.
Almost everyone driving, walking or cycling has no thought of competing.
They are performing what, to them, is a normal activity to do during the
day, perhaps just to get somewhere.

So if bicycling is listed as a sport, so should walking and driving. If
that were done, each of their fatality counts and their TBI counts would
totally eclipse that of cycling.

Here's where cycling would look worse: in the dreaded Skinned Knee
category. Most cyclist visits to ER are for "abrasions of the lower
limb." Upper limbs also do badly. Yes, horrors, most people do fall off
their bikes occasionally. (Some even ride tricycles to avoid that!)

But OTOH, every study I've seen on the topic has said emphatically that
bicycling is a strong net benefit for health. IOW, an individual is
safer cycling than not cycling. And if helmet mania convinces people
that riding is too dangerous, society will suffer a net loss in health.

> "Policies that recommend the use of bicycle helmets have achieved
> long-term sustained helmet use rates and a 20% - 55% reduction in
> bicycle-related head injuries, including TBIs."

Your reference upstream said "Overall, the rate of ED visits for
bicycle-related TBIs decreased by approximately one half (48.7%) among
children and by 5.5% among adults." But attributing that directly to
helmets is a stretch. Cycling among kids has plummeted in recent
decades. In the early 1970s, about half of kids walked or biked to
school. That's down to about 10% or less now, and biking has dropped
more than walking. Drops in cycling are a well proven result of
mandating helmets, and I believe the same effect occurs when helmets are
strongly promoted.

I've come across statements by helmet promoters whose response was
"Good. If we can keep kids from riding, that's even better than letting
them ride only with helmets." But uncommon as serious TBI is, if there
are fewer kids cycling, there will be less cycling TBI cases.

That's not my idea of a social benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

Indeed are lot of saved by my helmet type stories.

In terms of data, while I don’t doubt that individually it’s possible to
protect, places which have high helmet usage vs either from laws or just
culturally the rate essentially hasn’t changed ie.

It’s extremely difficult to see any difference in populations which begs
the question why mandate it then?

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 20:58:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/13/2023 4:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2023 at 5:13:37?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 6/13/2023 1:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>>> On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 10:38:16?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 6/12/2023 4:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A helmet is designed to reduce the impact of a fall-over accident. This is ALL it can do.
>>>>> And as I've mentioned before, I had a friend who (last year, IIRC) died
>>>>> in a zero speed, fall-over accident. He hit his head and died of a brain
>>>>> injury despite his helmet. His wife believes he couldn't free his foot
>>>>> from his clipless pedal.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> Statistics Frank.
>>> I've given plenty over the years, Lou. Do you want a review?
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Your example is anecdotal.
>
>Of course it was. So are the many "My helmet saved my life!" fantasy tales.
>
>As I said, I've posted reams of data. I eventually realized many people
>are too innumerate to respond to data. They tend to give, and apparently
>rely on, anecdotes.
>
>When my friend died, I decided that was an anecdote probably more valid
>than the "saved my life" tales.

But why do you imagine that what other bicyclists wear on their heads
is any of your business?

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 07:16:01 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 6/13/2023 4:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>>> On Tuesday, June 13, 2023 at 5:13:37?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 6/13/2023 1:29 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/report-reveals-how-many-lives-have-been-saved-by-bike-helmets-20190208-p50wj7.html
http://www.smj.org.sg/sites/default/files/4705/4705a1.pdf
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29122803/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 21:20:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Rejecting Krygowski's advice will result in his attempts to pry into
your personal life. The more the narcissistic knows about you, the
better he can insult and gaslight you.

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 05:37:23 -0400, Catrike Rider

But, what in the world does riding a bicycle before 1975 have to do
with the present? Does that mean that there can be no progress? That
everything must be as it was 50 years ago? Down tube shifters and sew
up tires?

But lets expand this a bit. The first person to ride a bicycle across
the U.S. was Thomas Stevens who left San Francisco on 22 April 1884,
on a "Penny-Farthing" single speed bicycle carrying socks, a spare
shirt, a raincoat, and a pocket revolver.

Now Frank has, I believe, ridden across the U.S. Tell us Frank, did
you it on a single speed bicycle carrying only socks, one shirt, a
raincoat and a pocket revolver?

If not then it makes your demand for "what did you do, back then" a
bit ridiculous, doesn't it?

But ridiculous is your forte, isn't it. "I know all about firearms! I
fired a .22 once or twice."

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 05:37:23 -0400, Catrike Rider

I've always viewed it as a somewhat frantic attempt to demonstrate
that he really is the expert that he declares himself to be. Much like
Tom and the Afro guy.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank is correct that the possible savings of lives is so minor that it should be left to a personal discretion. These cases harm NO ONE but the person making their own decision. The numbers bandied about here are so ridiculous because the asses throwing them around haven't the faintest clue that they are multiple references to the same cases.

It is RARE to see a bicycle injury in an ER and when one shows up it is normally the frantic parent of a 2 year old that fell off of his balance bike and the child crying that he hurt his head.

But it is equally stupid to claim that since young men show up in Emergency Rooms with head injuries that helmets are unnecessary. A helmet is designed to take a fall of LESS than 5 feet and offers no protection other than that. 99% of falls have reduced impact since people normally fall on other parts of their bodies which greatly reduces the impact to the head. My fall which gave me an extremely dangerous concussion was from only 3 feet. Without a helmet that would have definitely been a skull fracture. Young men showing personal courage by doing acrobatics on bicycles and MTB riders riding course that normally cause falls of up to 10 feet simply exceed the limits of physics. Pretending that they suffice to make helmets worthless is just irresponsible.

I am using the Bontrager Wavecell helmet because it is a real improvement over a foam helmet. While recovering from my bad fall I fell a couple of times with the Wavecell with absolutely no effects other than a bit of shock. And the Wavecells even recovered to normal.

That sounds too much like and advertisement, but the point is that because you can exceed the limits of a helmet doesn't mean that used within those limits they aren't helpful.

[Frank Krygowski]

And on the other hand: Crocker, Patrick, Alcohol, bicycling, and head
and brain injury: a study of impaired cyclists' riding patterns, January
2010, The American journal of emergency medicine 28(1):68-72

Crocker is a physician in Austin, TX. He has long lobbied for an all
ages MHL in Austin. His study attempted to record data on all cyclists
presenting to Austin ERs, to conclusively demonstrate the tremendous
benefit of helmets. In addition to helmet use, he also recorded blood
alcohol content.

His data indicated a strong correlation between alcohol and serious
brain injuries; but to his chagrin, it did not detect a significant
protection due to helmets. He notes that people drinking and cycling
rarely wear helmets; and apparently, when a drunk gets brain injured,
the alcohol is much more important than the lack of a helmet.

This is significant, because it identifies alcohol as a serious
confounding factor that almost all helmet studies ignore.

And ISTM that alcohol should be a confounding factor accounted for in,
say, studies of walking helmets! But despite the fact that pedestrians
die at a far higher rate than cyclists, with nearly the same percentage
due to brain injury, there is _still_ no call for walking helmets!

Why is bicycling, comprising only 0.6% of American brain injury
fatalities, so subject to helmet mania? What about the other 99.4%?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

You need rate not absolute numbers ie the cycling rate fell after the legal
mandate to wear them.

Realistically look at places with low cycling death and injury rates such
as Netherlands they do many things but what they don’t do is mandate
helmets.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Sure, John. Mock anyone who ignores "progress" by choosing sew up tires,
downtube shifters, or even no shifters. Mock those who choose to ride
without the fashionable foam hats. Mock those who ride without special
shoes that work only with special pedals, or without day-glo "team"
jerseys. Mock those whose bike frames are made of unfashionable steel.
And those who ride without an active GPS connection.

While you're at it, mock those who let their kids play (gasp!) outside
the boundaries of their yard. Mock the people foolish enough to go to
places out of cell phone range. Mock all the pedestrians who walk
without hi-viz vests.

Heck, mock the people who are so afraid of falling they ride only
tricycles, and ride only on bike trails, and only when carrying a gun
for "protection"!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 11:52:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Krygowski doesn't like being mocked, and he is also upset because the
people he tries to mock just laugh at him.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, Frank is a long term rider with a lot of experience. If he didn't want to be the expert he would be a good source of information. When he said that he disagreed with Jobst he surely meant silently since if he did it publicly Jobst would have attacked him and published his address as well as mine. And the array of people who thought of Jobst as the world's greatest expert on everything surely never rode with him because he would have not just have dropped them in the firsts 50 feet but ridiculed them on the group here. Jobst had a lot of good points but humble was not one of them.

[sms]

On 6/12/2023 11:25 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have to add a new mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one. Tell me that basically they all protect about the same. I cannot see paying 5 to ten times the price if they do that same job basically.
>
> Ignoring the fashion I can get a Bell Axle at Walmart for $25. I can get Giro $50 at Dick's and a Giro MPS for $70 a Dicks. Please give me some advice. I suppose Andrew might have a thought about it since he probably at least has them, although my thought is that is only for convenience of the place, not so much a priority. I am a sell out going to Wally World.
> Deacon Mark

Ensure that it has a Mips™ Safety System. See
<https://www.costco.com/freetown-gear-%2526-gravel-lumiere-adult-bike-helmet-with-mips.product.100856858.html>.
They usually have these in stock in the store. It also has an LED light
in the back.

I don't think that the Bell Axle helmet has the Mips™ Safety System, but
the Lynx does.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 15:42:00 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>> In terms of data, while I don?t doubt that individually it?s possible to

>>> protect, places which have high helmet usage vs either from laws or just

>>> culturally the rate essentially hasn?t changed ie.
>>>
>>> It?s extremely difficult to see any difference in populations which begs

>>> the question why mandate it then?
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> https://www.smh.com.au/national/report-reveals-how-many-lives-have-been-saved-by-bike-helmets-20190208-p50wj7.html
>> http://www.smj.org.sg/sites/default/files/4705/4705a1.pdf
>> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29122803/
>
>You need rate not absolute numbers ie the cycling rate fell after the legal
>mandate to wear them.
>
>Realistically look at places with low cycling death and injury rates such
>as Netherlands they do many things but what they don’t do is mandate
>helmets.
>
>Roger Merriman

Try reading the references. the first one, if you read it, states in
the reference to a specific study that,
"Immediately following bicycle helmet legislation, the rate of
bicycle fatalities per 1?000?000 population reduced by 46% relative to
the pre-legislation trend [95% confidence interval (CI): 31, 58]. For
the period 1990–2016, we estimate 1332 fewer cycling fatalities (95%
CI: 1201, 1463) or an average of 49.4 per year (95% CI: 44.5, 54.2).
Reductions were also observed for pedestrian fatalities; however,
bicycle fatalities declined by 36% relative to pedestrian fatalities
(95% CI: 12, 54)."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[pH]

On 2023-06-13, pH <wNOS...@gmail.org> wrote:

> On 2023-06-12, Mark Cleary <deaco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have to add a new
>> mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one. Tell me that basically
>> they all protect about the same. I cannot see paying 5 to ten times the
>> price if they do that same job basically.
>>
>> Ignoring the fashion I can get a Bell Axle at Walmart for $25. I can get
>> Giro $50 at Dick's and a Giro MPS for $70 a Dicks. Please give me some
>> advice. I suppose Andrew might have a thought about it since he probably
>> at least has them, although my thought is that is only for convenience of
>> the place, not so much a priority. I am a sell out going to Wally World.
>> Deacon Mark
>

> Not your question and my helmet is probably much older than yours but if you
> wear glasses you will like the "take-a-look" brand mirror. I'm hooked on
> them now.
>

> pH in Aptos
>

Following my own post...mine's an old Bell Sequoia and says it was made in
2005. Just getting broken in....

pH

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 13:52:06 -0400, Catrike Rider

I find it interesting how fast Frank is on his feet, so to speak. He
asks what I wore 50 years ado and I ask him whether we should ignore
progress and ride the same bike (with down tube shifters and sew ups)
that we rode 50years ago.... And I'm "mocking" someone.something?

But, I guess, as the old saying has it "any port in a storm" and Frank
needs to frantically fall back on sarcasms to defend his position.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 06:08:54 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Bike helmets are pretty common around here, and probably most
everywhere in the USA. I see people wearing helmets on trikes going 5
MPH. The anti-helmet crowd is failing as bad as the anti-Ar15 crowd

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 22:57:22 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

Out of curiosity I looked up the material that bike helmets are made
from and the Web says it is Expanded Plystyrene (EPS) foam with a
polycarbonate shell. I then looked up whether the foam deteriorates
over time and found that "Expanded polystyrene does not degrade over
time, is unaffected by moisture and is non-toxic."

So, as far as the helmet itself is concerned it apparently lasts
almost forever (:-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's by Jake Olivier. Those who have studied this issue for years know
him well. He's currently Australia's foremost defender of Australia's
mandatory helmet laws. I know of serious researchers who discuss his
partiality in detail.

Note the denominator, John. The rates are calculated per general
population, not per cyclist. That's significant, because at the time
Australia's helmet laws came into effect, there was a large step
decrease in cycling. IOW, a very large portion of those who were
cyclists gave it up. That is a very undesirable effect of MHLs, but its
one that people like Olivier use to further their viewpoints. In the
extreme case, a jurisdiction could absolutely forbid cycling, sending
cycling fatalities down to zero.

Some people would say that's a good idea. You may be one of them. I'm not.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 19:52:23 -0400, Catrike Rider

Her, Thailand, there is no regulation regarding the wearing bike
helmets but every recreational rider I see has one on. I do see the
occasional "old fellow" pedaling down to the market without a helmet
but with the cheap motorcycles available here transportation bicycle
use is now very rare.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 07:29:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I don't believe any state has a helmet requirement for adults, but
there might be some lacal laws. In spite of that, probably 90 percent
of the adult bicylists I see are wearing them.

[Roger Meriman]

It’s also why places like London hire bikes and other things have worked
well i numbers of folks using them as don’t have the barriers of a helmet.
So it can be spontaneous.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 02:40:20 -0400, Catrike Rider

I'll further expound..

Governments, local, state, and federal, often pass laws, supposedly,
to prevent individuals from doing harm to themselves and have no
effect on others. I oppose such laws as a being an attack on
individual freedoms.

Those laws are commonly done because of pressure from lobbyists, in
some cases to sell a product such as bike helmets, but also by people
who have a need to tell people what to do and use the potential harm
as excuse to satisfy that need.

There are also people who satisfy that need by arguing against such
laws, and I generally support those endeavors, regardless of the
reasons. However, continuing to argue against doing what the now
withdrawn laws used to mandate, is an even greater attack on
individual freedoms.

[Tom Kunich]

We know at least one outstanding example of that as well as a couple more that would like to be but their lives have been such utter failures that they can hardly use themselves as examples of the Truth According to Garp.

[Frank Krygowski]

Right. Bike share systems have popped up in countless cities. If the
city is large enough, the systems tend to work well. But two large
cities were notable exceptions: Seattle and Melbourne. Both cities had
enforced Mandatory Helmet Laws for all ages, but both systems failed. It
seems surprisingly few people carry a bike helmet around all day just in
case they may like to jump on a rental bike; and few people seem
comfortable wearing a rental helmet that was recently on someone else's
head.

While this was going on, New York City's bike share system was thriving,
with no helmet requirement. There was no mountain of brain injured
users, and there were literally millions of riders of the bikes before
there was even one fatality.

Seattle finally repealed its MHL.
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2022/02/25/the-forgotten-other-good-reason-for-repealing-seattles-bike-helmet-law

Locally, a tiny company is soon to launch a downtown bike share scheme.
I'm not very optimistic, because their launch is very limited in scope,
there already is or soon will be free trolley service to the same
destinations, etc. But I attended a public meeting where they introduced
their plans.

Someone asked about helmets. Their response? "When you register and sign
in, you're promising you'll use a helmet. But we're not going to enforce
that. It's up to you."

Ah, the mental gymnastics of the helmet culture!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Cleary]

What thread. I ask about helmets and get a bunch of stuff on why I should or shouldn't wear a helmet. Stick to the topic and if you don't wear a helmet then don''t answer the question. Preaching about not wearing a helmet will not get my attention.
Deacon Mark

[AMuzi]

On 6/15/2023 2:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:

>>>>>> as Netherlands they do many things but what they don’t do is mandate

>>>>>> helmets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Try reading the references. the first one, if you read it, states in
>>>>> the reference to a specific study that,
>>>>> "Immediately following bicycle helmet legislation, the rate of
>>>>> bicycle fatalities per 1?000?000 population reduced by 46% relative to
>>>>> the pre-legislation trend [95% confidence interval (CI): 31, 58]. For

>>>>> the period 1990–2016, we estimate 1332 fewer cycling fatalities (95%

>>>>> CI: 1201, 1463) or an average of 49.4 per year (95% CI: 44.5, 54.2).
>>>>> Reductions were also observed for pedestrian fatalities; however,
>>>>> bicycle fatalities declined by 36% relative to pedestrian fatalities
>>>>> (95% CI: 12, 54)."
>>>>
>>>> That's by Jake Olivier. Those who have studied this issue for years know
>>>> him well. He's currently Australia's foremost defender of Australia's
>>>> mandatory helmet laws. I know of serious researchers who discuss his
>>>> partiality in detail.
>>>>
>>>> Note the denominator, John. The rates are calculated per general
>>>> population, not per cyclist. That's significant, because at the time
>>>> Australia's helmet laws came into effect, there was a large step
>>>> decrease in cycling. IOW, a very large portion of those who were
>>>> cyclists gave it up. That is a very undesirable effect of MHLs, but its
>>>> one that people like Olivier use to further their viewpoints. In the
>>>> extreme case, a jurisdiction could absolutely forbid cycling, sending
>>>> cycling fatalities down to zero.
>>>>
>>>> Some people would say that's a good idea. You may be one of them. I'm not.
>>>>
>>>

>>> It’s also why places like London hire bikes and other things have worked
>>> well i numbers of folks using them as don’t have the barriers of a helmet.

My first comment in the second reply to your post was,
"You're a grown up. Make your own decision"

But hey, celebrate diversity!

Opinions vary, solicited or not and you choose to read or
not read them and to agree or disagree or even to dispute.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[sms]

On 6/14/2023 4:08 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> But, I guess, as the old saying has it "any port in a storm" and Frank
> needs to frantically fall back on sarcasms to defend his position.

He's been posting incorrect information about helmets for a very long
time. He has no need for statistical data or for the expertise of
medical professionals.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank rides an old touring bike at old touring bike speeds. If he feels that he is more at danger of being hit by a careless driver than he is of hitting a rock or something and being knocked off, that is his judgement and not ours to make for him. And if he is more at danger of being hit by a car then indeed, a helmet is going to have little if any benefit as he suggests.

It makes no sense to blame Frank for acting tyrannical and then do the same thing ourselves. It is his head and his judgement.

[Roger Meriman]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 6/12/2023 11:25 AM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>> So my Bontranger Quantam helmet is over 7 years old. I have to add a new
>> mirror to it, a THrd Eye, so time for a new one. Tell me that basically
>> they all protect about the same. I cannot see paying 5 to ten times the
>> price if they do that same job basically.
>>
>> Ignoring the fashion I can get a Bell Axle at Walmart for $25. I can get
>> Giro $50 at Dick's and a Giro MPS for $70 a Dicks. Please give me some
>> advice. I suppose Andrew might have a thought about it since he probably
>> at least has them, although my thought is that is only for convenience
>> of the place, not so much a priority. I am a sell out going to Wally World.
>> Deacon Mark
>
> Ensure that it has a Mips™ Safety System. See
> <https://www.costco.com/freetown-gear-%2526-gravel-lumiere-adult-bike-helmet-with-mips.product.100856858.html>.
>
> They usually have these in stock in the store. It also has an LED light
> in the back.
>
> I don't think that the Bell Axle helmet has the Mips™ Safety System, but
> the Lynx does.
>

Word of caution at I had a Smith helmet as did a friend both MIPS failed in
that they detached, neither in points that a helmet should fail.

I have a Kash helmet now which apparently has something other than MIPS!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

The people who devised MIPS made assumptions that were never obvious - 1. They felt that a significant number of the very low bicycle injuries were because the head somehow "stuck" against the inside foam surface of the helmet and 2. By devising a mechanism that would allow the head to slip inside of the helmet this sort of injury would be defeated or at least minimized.

The problem with this is that injuries of this sort are pretty rare and they occur in the first couple of milliseconds of the strike - much too short a period of time for any mechanical mechanism to work. That the head "sticks" is dubious at best and truthfully I have to wonder if this wasn't an invention to generate patent funds.

[Tom Kunich]

I should also note that the testing that Bontrager did for their Wavecell helmet showed no difference between the helmet without and those with a MIPS system.

[Roger Meriman]

Well as ever using model to attempt to simplify and thus use tests is
optimistic at best, life is messy and dirty, hence knowing folks who have
walked away from high impacts and those of have been killed by somewhat
benign injuries, it demonstrates that are understanding is fairly poor.

And some sports activities are in denial well quite a lot of organisations,
in USA the famous one is the NFL and repeated concussions.

Rugby has protocols not sure if NFL does, road cycling desperately needs
one, seen way too many folks crash out and ride on, clearly confused, and
so on.

Brain injury and death are still fairly poorly understood and researched.
The researchers I’ve spoken to said was the gulf war that started funding
some of it.

Roger Merriman

[sms]

On 6/15/2023 3:43 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:

<snip>

> Brain injury and death are still fairly poorly understood and researched.
> The researchers I’ve spoken to said was the gulf war that started funding
> some of it.

All Mips does to reduce the rotational motion in some crashes. Like
airbags in a car, it doesn't take any significant time to work. There
are no grandiose claims that it will prevent every rotational injury,
just that, in some cases, it reduces the likelihood and severity of
those injuries.

Helmet use should be encouraged because all statistical data proves that
they reduce head injuries in the event of a crash.

[John B.]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 22:43:49 GMT, Roger Meriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not to argue, but Rugby is a team sport so there is at least another
player to observe a possibly injured player while bicycleing can be a
solo sport.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 16:47:46 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/15/2023 3:43 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Brain injury and death are still fairly poorly understood and researched.
>> The researchers I’ve spoken to said was the gulf war that started funding
>> some of it.
>
>All Mips does to reduce the rotational motion in some crashes. Like
>airbags in a car, it doesn't take any significant time to work. There
>are no grandiose claims that it will prevent every rotational injury,
>just that, in some cases, it reduces the likelihood and severity of
>those injuries.
>
>Helmet use should be encouraged because all statistical data proves that
>they reduce head injuries in the event of a crash.

I've always wondered about the effectiveness of MIPS as opposed to
conventional helmets. I've worn both bike helmets and construction
"hard hats" and they both will rotate slightly if an impact isn't at
exactly 90 degrees to the surface. Isn't that, effectively MIPS?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

As I try to remind people from time to time: This is a discussion group!
If you post here about some topic, you should expect it to be discussed.

Of course people should make their own decision about what they wear.
But ISTM a decision is better when it's based upon facts.

One fact is: Contrary to the hype, bicycling does not have an excessive
risk of serious brain injury compared with other daily activities.

Another fact is: Massive bike helmet use has not apparently reduced the
already low incidence of serious brain injury.

And I believe a third fact is: "Dangerizing" bicycling by exaggerating
its risks does us no good.

But helmet threads generate copious discussion. That's been true for
decades. How can that be a surprise?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/15/2023 5:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Frank rides an old touring bike at old touring bike speeds.

Based on your posts, Tom, I ride my old touring bike faster than you
ride your latest super-light wonder! (Whatever that is this week.)

I'm not fast any more. But I'm apparently faster than you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/15/2023 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 16:47:46 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 6/15/2023 3:43 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Brain injury and death are still fairly poorly understood and researched.
>>> The researchers I’ve spoken to said was the gulf war that started funding
>>> some of it.
>>
>> All Mips does to reduce the rotational motion in some crashes. Like
>> airbags in a car, it doesn't take any significant time to work. There
>> are no grandiose claims that it will prevent every rotational injury,
>> just that, in some cases, it reduces the likelihood and severity of
>> those injuries.
>>
>> Helmet use should be encouraged because all statistical data proves that
>> they reduce head injuries in the event of a crash.
>
> I've always wondered about the effectiveness of MIPS as opposed to
> conventional helmets.

America's most prominent and dedicated (mandatory) helmet promoter
claims that MIPS has no value. Make of that what you will.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/15/2023 7:47 PM, sms wrote:
> On 6/15/2023 3:43 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Brain injury and death are still fairly poorly understood and researched.
>> The researchers I’ve spoken to said was the gulf war that started funding
>> some of it.
>
> All Mips does to reduce the rotational motion in some crashes. Like
> airbags in a car, it doesn't take any significant time to work. There
> are no grandiose claims that it will prevent every rotational injury,
> just that, in some cases, it reduces the likelihood and severity of
> those injuries.
>
> Helmet use should be encouraged because all statistical data proves that
> they reduce head injuries in the event of a crash.

If that's why helmets should be encouraged, then they should be
encouraged for _all_ activities that generate head injuries.

For the greatest benefit to society (say, by reducing society's medical
expenses) those activities that generate the most head injuries should
get the most helmet promotion.

Walking would be much higher on that list than cycling. Do you favor
walking helmets?

--
- Frank Krygowski