Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail

[Commuting253]

Hi folks...
I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up?
Thanks...
B

[Joerg]

Looks like a road bike.

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/performance_race/emonda/emonda_s_4/

If by rail trail you mean the kind that we have you won't have much fun:

http://s31.photobucket.com/user/otbp_nocal/media/Train%20Track%20Ride/DSC05734.jpg.html

I take my old road bike offroad at times. Has super-thick tubes in
Gatorskins so no worries about flats. But it's hard on the lower back
and mine isn't all that great anymore. So I always use my MTB when there
are more than a few hundred feet of such trail.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[bac...@gmail.com]

Hi Joerg,
Thanks! I don't think I mean trails like the one shown in your photo. Maybe I'm just wondering if a finely tweaked carbon road bike can handle lots of bumps.
B

[Joerg]

Carbon frames are tough (unless you crash really bad) and even some of
the cyclo-cross folks who are taking their bikes through the rough stuff
are going towards carbon these days:

http://www.cxmagazine.com/specialized-crux-pro-carbon-cyclocross-bike-review

If your offroad turf is fairly easy and you don't ride in soggy weather
it might be ok. Out here we have lots of creek and puddle crossings
offroad even when it hasn't rained in weeks. That's one reason why I
prefer a disc brake bike. For the road I restored my old Gazelle-frame
bike from the early 80's which I occasionally take offroad. If I'd ever
buy a new road bike I'd likely opt for a titanium cyclo-crosser with
disc brakes. Like this, but I might switch the front to hydraulic disc:

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/cross-bikes/fantom_cross_comp_ti_xv.htm

Make sure you new bike has good sturdy hubs and spokes. That's the kind
of stuff I've ruined a lot when younger, in the days when mountain bikes
were non-existent or unaffordable where I lived back then (Europe).

One very frequent route of mine requires a creek crossing and about
1/2mi offroad, there just isn't any other reasonable connection. On my
road bike I take that 1/2mi slowly and then carry the bike across the
creek. On my MTB I can just barrel through almost at full bore but the
MTB is slower on pavement and the tires wear too fast. If the rest of
the trip (30-50mi) is mostly paved I am vastly faster on the road bike.

[jbeattie]

Check with the shop and see if it has clearance for 25mm or 28mm tires.

A carbon road race bike can handle mild trail just fine. I frequently ride up unpaved forest roads, single track and gravel roads on a CF racing bike. I just came back from riding a section of nasty single track on CF racing bike (Cannondale SuperSix) with Shimano DuraAce C35 wheels and 23mm tires. I was fine, although it clearly is not the optimal bike for that sort of riding, and for gravel road riding, I switch to at least 25mm tires (and sometimes a CX bike that can accommodate 28mm or larger tires) because I don't like getting flats. As far as the frame goes, you don't have anything to worry about.

By the way, I rode this single track section with some friends riding: Specialized Venge, Specialized Tarmac, Time (don't know model, but it's light), Pinarello Paris -- and the one guy who had a remotely appropriate bike, a Foundry CX bike, but I don't know which model, and he was on road tires. All of them were carbon fiber bikes. We hit various trails and rutted, unpaved forest roads because all of these guys (and gal) are road, CX and/or MTB racers who can't go on any ride without hitting at least some dirt.

Tires and inflation pressure are more important than frame material.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

.............

lotta dinero....for ?

Dough Main has a more relaxed fork for dirt, the EEEEEEEEEEEEkmonda a quick turn in pavement fork with a sit down hill climb seat post or is that a stump jumper seat post ? You could zappp around the Superduper's light posts at blistering speeds..

Your freaking crazy and prob a Trek salesman.

If you wanna work yOur way into a croner get a EEEEEEEKMONDA AT 2500+ TAX then watch the tubes crack leaving you penniless.

Generally speaking off course.

disgusting

Ima gonna puke

[avag...@gmail.com]

weird.

frame looks designed to either force you into mpedaling standing up or using steroid shots to grow longer arms.

sell one to Curious George in San Clemente ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

the 2 frames look fragile...Treks point advantage...as if the next goon at the Superduper could pick it up n snap it in two across the nearest lampost

[Frank Krygowski]

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
sane.)

My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and
minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant
advantages but significant detriments.

On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone
"crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or
chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the
tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone
that locks a wheel.

I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I
wouldn't worry about your frame breaking.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
>> Hi folks...
>> I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
>> most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
>> minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
>> this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
>> hold up?
>> Thanks...
>> B
>>
> I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
> mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
> bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
> sane.)
>

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/trek-9800-oclv-only-10-rides-old.html

http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.

> My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and
> minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant
> advantages but significant detriments.
>
> On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone
> "crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or
> chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the
> tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone
> that locks a wheel.
>
> I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I
> wouldn't worry about your frame breaking.
>

Agree, if there is a 23mm limit that's no good. At least it wouldn't be
for me. IIRC even a lot of Amgen participants were riding 25mm.

[avag...@gmail.com]

35C

[John B.]

On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
>>> Hi folks...
>>> I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
>>> most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
>>> minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
>>> this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
>>> hold up?
>>> Thanks...
>>> B
>>>
>> I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
>> mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
>> bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
>> sane.)
>>
>
>http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/trek-9800-oclv-only-10-rides-old.html
>
>http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html
>
>Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
>much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
>frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
>I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.
>

I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used
in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my
last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa
(70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5,
which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808
psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and
Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000
psi)

>
>> My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and
>> minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant
>> advantages but significant detriments.
>>
>> On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone
>> "crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or
>> chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the
>> tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone
>> that locks a wheel.
>>
>> I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I
>> wouldn't worry about your frame breaking.
>>
>
>Agree, if there is a 23mm limit that's no good. At least it wouldn't be
>for me. IIRC even a lot of Amgen participants were riding 25mm.
--

cheers,

John B.

[James]

On 02/06/15 03:46, Joerg wrote:

>
> Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
> much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill?

This is a stupid question.

--
JS

[James]

It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame
felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are
about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly
stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings
wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel
frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in
the frame at all, with all my strength applied.

--
JS

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 7:46:03 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
> >> Hi folks...
> >> I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road
> >> most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and
> >> minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
> >> this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would
> >> hold up?
> >> Thanks...
> >> B
> >>
> > I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you
> > mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and
> > bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more
> > sane.)
> >
>
> http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/trek-9800-oclv-only-10-rides-old.html
>
> http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html
>
> Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as
> much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon
> frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes
> I'd be a bit concerned about carbon.

Ti has half the stiffness of Steel. You have to design around this. Fat downtube and fat bottom bracket shells are the answer for your problem. Look at the CF frames and Al frames. If you like the look of the skinny steel frames than you have a problem.

Lou


Lou

[John B.]

On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
bracket flexing.

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTiiiiiii

as CF loomed on the horizon, Lightspeed via Colorado Cyclist began adverting frames with octagonal hexagonal and various tubing beam shapes in Ti.

I assume these are now collectors frames.

[Joerg]

The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike I've
ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the magic
really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can splurge
more than with heavier materials.

> I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
> all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
> that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
> bracket flexing.
>

Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front
derailleur had rubbed through again.

> My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
> magazines making a big meal out of it either.
>
> Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)

It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where
the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate
more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting
2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter
for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set
of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so
much torque anymore.

[Sir Ridesalot]

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is standard operating procedure.


There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the front derailler.

Cheers

[Joerg]

Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.

>
> There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear
> shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the
> right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the
> front derailler.
>

That would be nice but the Shimano 600 series didn't have that back then.

What impressed me with a titanium MTB frame was the almost total absence
of chain ring wobble. I am wondering whether that would be the same on
cyclo-cross titanium frames.

[Duane]

What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.

Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?

[James]

On 03/06/15 03:11, Joerg wrote:

>
> It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
> substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches.

One inch tubes.

Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes. Mine has an
inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for the other main
tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve about the same
weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on a 10 speed
Campy setup.

--
JS

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-02 12:19 PM, Duane wrote:
> On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>>>> My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
>>>>> bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
>>>> substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
>>>> where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
>>>> accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
>>>> if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
>>>> the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
>>>> pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
>>>> little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.
>>>>
>>>> -- Regards, Joerg
>>>>
>>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>>
>>> Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
>>> standard operating procedure.
>>>
>>
>> Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
>> index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
>> ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.
>>
>
> What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
> derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
> have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.
>

Interesting. I never had a bike with brifters, didn't know they can be
trimmed on-the-fly.

> Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
> familiar with?
>

I have the typical Shimano Deore XT set-up on my MTB and there are no
trim features accessible while riding. Shifting is via gear levers, not
brifters. For trim you'd have to stop and get off the bike.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-02 12:22 PM, James wrote:
> On 03/06/15 03:11, Joerg wrote:
>
>>
>> It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
>> substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches.
>
> One inch tubes.
>

Only the top tube.

> Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes. Mine has an
> inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for the other main
> tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve about the same
> weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on a 10 speed
> Campy setup.
>

The others are 1-1/8". I guess that's enough of a difference versus
1-1/4" then. The rubbing is minimal but enough that I have to trim back
the front derailleur when shifting from outer sprocket three sprockets
up (so four sprockets difference). Only when I "step on it hard" but
then it's quite audible.

[Duane]

With brifters you have a sort of half push that does the trim before the
full push clicks the change.

[AMuzi]

Diameter makes all the difference. Note the exponents:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torsion-shafts-d_947.html

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

But how does the brifter know what to set the derailleur trim to once it
clicked? Do you somehow have to shift in and out on the front after a
gross change in back? Sounds like more effort than with my old friction
shifters.

[Joerg]

Thanks. It sure does. Maybe that's the reason why. I've had it on modern
aluminum bikes as well though and they had huge hydroformed tubes. Even
my aluminum-frame MTB does it to some extent, just not enough to bother
the shifting in back. The much titanium bike behaves like a rock
although the outer tube diameter is much lower but I don't know the wall
thickness.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I notice that you've again shifted the topic from ROAD BIKES to MTBs.

If the front derailler rub is that bad on your mtb then put a friction front thumb shifter on it. Are you sure that you have the right front derailler for your shifters?

Cheers

[Duane]

No idea. Never thought about it.

--
duane

[avag...@gmail.com]

nor I

I pedal like an old woman.

J pedals so violently that the frame bends causing the front deray to rub on chain ?

Not that I would ask a stupid question but why are these components moving in different directions ?

dropouts stagger left while BB jams right ?

your shifter adjusts the front deray.

WTF !

[John B.]

On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 10:11:24 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

In a sense perhaps, but titanium seems to be an extremely expensive
material compared to aluminum or steel :-)

>
>> I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
>> all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
>> that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
>> bracket flexing.
>>
>
>Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front
>derailleur had rubbed through again.

On the other hand these guys were able to place much higher loads on
the bottom brackets, for much longer periods than any "weekend
warrior". Merckx's one hour record wasn't broken for 12 years.

In addition at least two of them were well known to be rather obsessed
by the frames that they rode.

"Many continental riders care little about the machinery they ride,
but, as in many things, Merckx was an exception. His attention to
detail bordered on the fanatical. He it was who designed his hour
record bikes and comparable road frames"

And Lance Armstrong was called Mr. Millimeter by his mechanics for his
attention to the adjustment of his bike frames.

>
>> My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
>> magazines making a big meal out of it either.
>>
>> Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)
>
>
>It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
>substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where
>the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate
>more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting
>2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter
>for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set
>of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so
>much torque anymore.

But that isn't caused by bottom bracket flex, it is caused by the
chain angle between the front and rear sprockets and has been
understood, most probably, since the first derailer was made. Shimano
front shifters even incorporate an additional indent to allow for
"trimming" the front derailer as they are aware that the chain may rub
the derailer cage when on the extreme high and low cassette cogs. This
is described quite well in the installation instructions that
accompany the shifters.
--
cheers,

John B.

[James]

If your BB is not one with outboard bearings, you may find the frame's
apparent stiffness improved by moving to an outboard bearing BB. That
change certainly affected the apparent stiffness for me.

--
JS

[Joerg]

<scratching head>

So then, how does your half push trick adjust the front derailleur
position based on which sprocket is selected on the cassette?

[James]

Yes, dividing by D^4 means a small increase in D yields a much larger
reduction in torsional deflection.

For a 25.4mm tube with 0.5mm wall thickness, going to a 31.75mm tube
with the same wall thickness, yields a stiffness increase of 1.96 times,
or nearly 100%. You can then afford to reduce the wall thickness to
0.4mm, and still get almost a 60% increase in stiffness, and no weight
penalty. The down side is a more easily dented tube.

--
JS

[Joerg]

Because the shifters are in the end not much different and riders out
here talk about the exact same problem, regardless of bike type. Except
those with carbon frame bikes. Which I personally would not chose for a
gravel & rail trail bike.

> If the front derailler rub is that bad on your mtb then put a
> friction front thumb shifter on it. Are you sure that you have the
> right front derailler for your shifters?
>

On both bikes it's the complete group set, no mixing of parts. The rub
is mainly on my road bike but I have non-indexed friction shifters so I
can trim it out. I couldn't even use indexed shifters for that reason
and that is kind of surprising to me. I do put a lot of torque on the
cranks and ride with low cadence but I am not at all a Tour de France
class rider.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-02 5:14 PM, James wrote:
> On 03/06/15 05:45, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-06-02 12:22 PM, James wrote:

[...]

>>> Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes. Mine has an
>>> inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for the other main
>>> tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve about the same
>>> weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on a 10 speed
>>> Campy setup.
>>>
>>
>> The others are 1-1/8". I guess that's enough of a difference versus
>> 1-1/4" then. The rubbing is minimal but enough that I have to trim back
>> the front derailleur when shifting from outer sprocket three sprockets
>> up (so four sprockets difference). Only when I "step on it hard" but
>> then it's quite audible.
>>
>
> If your BB is not one with outboard bearings, you may find the frame's
> apparent stiffness improved by moving to an outboard bearing BB. That
> change certainly affected the apparent stiffness for me.
>

Not sure what outboard means, mine is this kind:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-Shimano-600-bottom-bracket-1-37x24T-ENG-/171805029851?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item280060b5db

[avag...@gmail.com]

NO TOUR ? incroyable....

what size are you physically ?

[James]

No. If the frame is not particularly stiff, and you exert a fair amount
of effort while pedalling, it is quite noticeable that the chain rings
do not maintain their position as centred between the FD plates. The
chain rings appear to move from side to side. In fact it looks
sometimes like the BB axle is bent, or something.

A good stiff frame and a BB with outboard bearings makes a big
difference to this side to side wobble of the chain rings, for those of
us who apply some serious leg power.

--
JS

[James]

Not like that, but like this;

http://brimages.bikeboardmedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/externalbb.jpg

--
JS

[AMuzi]

Rider hears noise=>rider pushes trim button.
Rider hears no noise=>rider doesn't push trim button.

(this could be either 'chain not rubbing' or 'deaf rider';
doesn't matter for the algorithm

[Duane]

What trick are you talking about? Ultegra and Dura Ace groupsets have a
trim function on the left shifter.

Not sure what you mean again. The trim just moves it over a bit more to
stop chain rub. It's mostly intended for big/big or small/small.

Do you think you need to trim the derailleur in the middle of the
cassette somewhere? How would you get chain rub there if it was
properly adjusted?

Not intended as an insult or anything but you certainly seem to have
issues that I've never heard of.

You can try googling it.

[Duane]

Or the wind. Sometime the guy behind me will yell "trim" if I don't
notice it. Really though I didn't find myself using it much. The
big/big or small/small combination is not that common with an 11-27
53/39. And now I have a 52/36 on a SRAM Force groupset and there's no trim.

[Joerg]

True but if bought from Bikes Direct the whole bike can still be had for
around $1500. A real cyclo-cross deal with disc brakes. Especially for
rail trails that would be a must for me.

>>
>>> I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After
>>> all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for
>>> that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom
>>> bracket flexing.
>>>
>>
>> Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front
>> derailleur had rubbed through again.
>
> On the other hand these guys were able to place much higher loads on
> the bottom brackets, for much longer periods than any "weekend
> warrior". Merckx's one hour record wasn't broken for 12 years.
>
> In addition at least two of them were well known to be rather obsessed
> by the frames that they rode.
>
> "Many continental riders care little about the machinery they ride,
> but, as in many things, Merckx was an exception. His attention to
> detail bordered on the fanatical. He it was who designed his hour
> record bikes and comparable road frames"
>

I remember that Merckx frames were all the rage back in the 80's. I
pretty much went all out when ordering this custom bike at the dealer
but a Merckx frame would have blown my budget back then.

> And Lance Armstrong was called Mr. Millimeter by his mechanics for his
> attention to the adjustment of his bike frames.
>
>>
>>> My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike
>>> magazines making a big meal out of it either.
>>>
>>> Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)
>>
>>
>> It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
>> substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where
>> the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate
>> more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting
>> 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter
>> for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set
>> of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so
>> much torque anymore.
>
> But that isn't caused by bottom bracket flex, it is caused by the
> chain angle between the front and rear sprockets and has been
> understood, most probably, since the first derailer was made. Shimano
> front shifters even incorporate an additional indent to allow for
> "trimming" the front derailer as they are aware that the chain may rub
> the derailer cage when on the extreme high and low cassette cogs. This
> is described quite well in the installation instructions that
> accompany the shifters.

On the Deore XT I could not see anything like that.

[AMuzi]

-snip-

On 6/3/2015 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:

> I remember that Merckx frames were all the rage back in the
> 80's. I pretty much went all out when ordering this custom
> bike at the dealer but a Merckx frame would have blown my
> budget back then.

Today's solution would be to lobby for a higher legislated
mandatory minimum wage for engineers.

[jbeattie]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:14:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> -snip-
> On 6/3/2015 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> > I remember that Merckx frames were all the rage back in the
> > 80's. I pretty much went all out when ordering this custom
> > bike at the dealer but a Merckx frame would have blown my
> > budget back then.
>
> Today's solution would be to lobby for a higher legislated
> mandatory minimum wage for engineers.

Or to get a higher budget. I was earning $2.25/hr and going to college when I bought my first $1,000 custom steel bike. I think minimum wage was $1.65 or $1.75, so I was in the top 90% and could afford it. Or I was willing to afford it. Rent was $75 month and tuition was $78 a semester -- which skyrocketed to $98 by the time of my graduation. When you think about it, bikes are still a pretty good deal, e.g. http://konaworld.com/kapu.cfm -- sort of the new Raleigh International, but not as pretty.

I bought a Park truing stand in 1979/80 for $129. It has not even doubled in price. https://www.westernbikeworks.com/product/park-tool-ts-22-professional-wheel-truing-stand

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/3/2015 11:18 AM, jbeattie wrote:

> ...I was willing to afford it... When you think about it, bikes are still a pretty good deal

In my not-quite-poverty days, I had friends who ran a bike shop where
I'd hang around a bit. They obviously didn't make much money, but they
did have extremely nice bikes, i.e. top of the line Raleighs (either
International or Competition), quite a bit nicer than mine.

One of them told me "I can't afford a nice house, a nice car or even an
really good stereo system. But I can afford one of the best bikes in
the world."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

cheaper Lafitte....

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.bing.com/search?q=What+is+Boeing+Stock+Worth&FORM=R5FD

[Joerg]

Interesting. I've never seen a trim button. Just in aircraft (trim wheels).

>
> Or the wind. Sometime the guy behind me will yell "trim" if I don't
> notice it. Really though I didn't find myself using it much. The
> big/big or small/small combination is not that common with an 11-27
> 53/39. And now I have a 52/36 on a SRAM Force groupset and there's no
> trim.

Meaning if you use a steeper cassette on that bike you couldn't trim. I
mounted 13-32 (with the 24T sprocket left out) on my old Shimano UG hub
which made the issue a bit worse. Front is 52/42. Without slight trim it
won't work, at least not under high torque.

[Joerg]

Thanks, I didn't know that. My Deore XT has no trim. The old Shimano 600
is not an issue because it has friction shifters.

> Not sure what you mean again. The trim just moves it over a bit more to
> stop chain rub. It's mostly intended for big/big or small/small.
>
> Do you think you need to trim the derailleur in the middle of the
> cassette somewhere? How would you get chain rub there if it was
> properly adjusted?
>
> Not intended as an insult or anything but you certainly seem to have
> issues that I've never heard of.
>
> You can try googling it.

Basically this: After some re-shuffling I have 13-16-18-21-28-32 in
back. Front is 52/42. It's 6-speed UG, some day when the last 5/6-speed
Wippermann chain is through I may make it a 7-speed and add the 24T
sprocket back in. Anyhow, when on the 52 chain ring and 13 in back the
front derailleur needs to be at the right peg or it'll rub. When on the
21T sprocket it'll rub and I need to back it off a bit. All this under
full power, at cruise there is never a rub.

[Joerg]

6'2". I built up some leg muscle over the last 1-1/2 years on account of
all the hills here. They are unavoidable. When you ride towards
Sacramento I have to climb about 1300 ft net to get home, with lots of
ups and downs inbetween. I have no logging tool for total climb per ride
or whatever that's called bit it's a lot.

[Joerg]

Not sure how that would make the ride more stiff. When I torque it hard
the whole bottom of the frame bends, not the BB or shaft itself.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-03 7:14 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> -snip-
> On 6/3/2015 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> I remember that Merckx frames were all the rage back in the
>> 80's. I pretty much went all out when ordering this custom
>> bike at the dealer but a Merckx frame would have blown my
>> budget back then.
>
> Today's solution would be to lobby for a higher legislated mandatory
> minimum wage for engineers.
>

Oh, today I can afford a good road bike. I'd probably opt for a
cyclo-cross because they have disc brakes. But ... if I bought a new
road bike my wife would insist on getting rid of my current road bike
and that's something I just can't do. At least not yet.

[James]

I believe there is a portion of both. Frame flex, and BB bearing and
shaft assy flex.

When I migrated from a more traditional cartridge bottom bracket, with
bearings that are retained within the BB shell and an axle with a square
taper, to a BB with outboard or external bearings and an axle that is a
much larger diameter tube, the chain rings noticeably swayed less.

My conclusion was/is that the bearings being further apart and closer to
the crank provide a stiffer bearing assembly, and likely the axle flexes
less also. The change yielding what appears to be a more rigid BB that
exhibits less chain ring sway.

This was with the one frame. I've now got a newer and stiffer frame,
and the BB sway is negligible. In fact I know the BB bearings are
starting to wear if I notice the chain rings moving side to side a little.

YMMV, and seems to often.

--
JS

[Joerg]

Yes, you are probably right. The shaft will contribute some sway and
that contribution could be just enough to make it rub on a derailleur
side. Aggravating is the fact that the 5/6-speed Wippermann chain I am
using has the pins sticking out more than on KMC chains. When the last
one is used up I want to switch to 7/8-speed chains which should cause
less rub.

[Duane]

Maybe you're losing the wrong equipment for your task. Can't say as I
don't do mtb. At least not as aggressively as you.
--
duane

[Duane]

Huh? I don't think so. It's going to push it over regardless.

Btw I typed 11-27 but should be 11-28.

24T sprocket left out) on my old Shimano UG hub which made the issue a bit
worse. Front is 52/42. Without slight trim it won't work, at least not
under high torque.

I don't see your point.


--
duane

[Joerg]

I meant on the SRAM group set which you wrote has no trim. But I don't
know that one, maybe the derailleur cage is wide enough to never rub.

> Btw I typed 11-27 but should be 11-28.
>
> 24T sprocket left out) on my old Shimano UG hub which made the issue a bit
> worse. Front is 52/42. Without slight trim it won't work, at least not
> under high torque.
>
>
> I don't see your point.
>

All I am saying is that I cannot shift from 13T to the 21T which is four
sprockets over without slight trim. If I don't back off the front
derailleur a wee bit it'll go rrratt .. rrratt when torqueing up a
slight incline.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-03 3:40 PM, Duane wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> On 2015-06-03 5:31 AM, Duane wrote:

[...]

>>> Not sure what you mean again. The trim just moves it over a bit more to
>>> stop chain rub. It's mostly intended for big/big or small/small.
>>>
>>> Do you think you need to trim the derailleur in the middle of the
>>> cassette somewhere? How would you get chain rub there if it was
>>> properly adjusted?
>>>
>>> Not intended as an insult or anything but you certainly seem to have
>>> issues that I've never heard of.
>>>
>>> You can try googling it.
>>
>>
>> Basically this: After some re-shuffling I have 13-16-18-21-28-32 in back.
>> Front is 52/42. It's 6-speed UG, some day when the last 5/6-speed
>> Wippermann chain is through I may make it a 7-speed and add the 24T
>> sprocket back in. Anyhow, when on the 52 chain ring and 13 in back the
>> front derailleur needs to be at the right peg or it'll rub. When on the
>> 21T sprocket it'll rub and I need to back it off a bit. All this under
>> full power, at cruise there is never a rub.
>
>
> Maybe you're losing the wrong equipment for your task. Can't say as I
> don't do mtb. At least not as aggressively as you.
>

This is on my old road bike, Shimano 600. It has the old-style UG hub
with a 6-speed 13-21T corn cob on there. That cassette wore out plus it
was totally unsuitable for the sometimes brutal hills out here.

I also had no choice because Shimano doesn't make these cassettes
anymore. For reasons I don't understand they widened one spline on the
HG hubs, making everything new incompatible with UG hubs. So after a
hint in a German NG I bought a HG50 7-speed MTB cassette, hacked it
apart, dremeled off part of the one wide spline on each sprocket so
it'll go on the old UG hub, picked the sprockets I wanted and assembled
them using the old cassette's spacers. Initially up to 28T but I found
that two of the hills were still a bit much. So I tried 32T. To my
surprise the old Shimano 600 short-cage derailleur shifted onto that.
Now I like my trusty old road bike more than ever. I just have to get
used to listen and trim more carefully or the front derailleur would suffer.

I also did something that is considered hardcore heresy, mounting MTB
pedals onto this road bike.

[Duane]

Oh I see. No if I'm in small small it's going to rattle. With the ultegra
I could trim it. But it's not usual to be there.

>
>> Btw I typed 11-27 but should be 11-28.
>>
>> 24T sprocket left out) on my old Shimano UG hub which made the issue a bit
>> worse. Front is 52/42. Without slight trim it won't work, at least not
>> under high torque.
>>
>>
>> I don't see your point.
>>
>
> All I am saying is that I cannot shift from 13T to the 21T which is four
> sprockets over without slight trim. If I don't back off the front
> derailleur a wee bit it'll go rrratt .. rrratt when torqueing up a slight incline.



--

duane

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-03 4:53 PM, Duane wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> On 2015-06-03 3:40 PM, Duane wrote:
>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2015-06-03 5:45 AM, Duane wrote:

[...]

>>>>>
>>>>> Or the wind. Sometime the guy behind me will yell "trim" if I don't
>>>>> notice it. Really though I didn't find myself using it much. The
>>>>> big/big or small/small combination is not that common with an 11-27
>>>>> 53/39. And now I have a 52/36 on a SRAM Force groupset and there's no
>>>>> trim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meaning if you use a steeper cassette on that bike you couldn't trim. I
>>>> mounted 13-32 (with the
>>>
>>> Huh? I don't think so. It's going to push it over regardless.
>>>
>>
>> I meant on the SRAM group set which you wrote has no trim. But I don't
>> know that one, maybe the derailleur cage is wide enough to never rub.
>>
>
> Oh I see. No if I'm in small small it's going to rattle. With the ultegra
> I could trim it. But it's not usual to be there.

I never ride small-small or large-large because of chain skew and
because my gear ratios are a bit extreme now for a short cage
derailleur. But I hear rattle already when shifting across four
sprockets on a 6-speed cassette.

[...]

[John B.]

A Singapore bike shop where I occasionally trade with had a mechanic
that rode a polished titanium road bike with Shimano Ultegra bits and
carbon wheels. I jokingly referred to this mechanic and when I said
something like, "Gee, you must make a lot of profit if your mechanics
can afford a bike like that". The shop owner took my remark seriously
and said, "He saved for six months to get that bike".
--
cheers,

John B.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:32:11 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-06-03 3:40 PM, Duane wrote:
> > Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> >> On 2015-06-03 5:31 AM, Duane wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>

> I also had no choice because Shimano doesn't make these cassettes
> anymore. For reasons I don't understand they widened one spline on the

> HG hubs, making everything new incompatible with UG hubs.> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The reason for those wide splines is so each cog of the cassette goes on in such a manner that the ramps on the cogs line up for the best shifting. If the ramps don't line up properly then the shifting would suffer.

Cheers

[Duane]

That would drive me nuts.

--
duane

[avag...@gmail.com]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


'That would drive me nuts.'

yes, on average an adequate observation.

'depends' on the recording equipment

[Joerg]

I know. But when you buy the cassette it is already riveted together in
the correct orientation, only the last sprocket is loose and that has a
clear marker arrow.

There can't be many people like me hacking cassettes apart and even
then, all sprockets have arrows as markers that can be clearly seen
after disassembly. I think it could be expected from an average rider or
bike mechanic to make sure the markers all end up on top of each other.
It's easy.

[Joerg]

That is one of the reasons I am holding back. A Ti bike looks so cool
and shiny that it almost screams "Steal me! Steal me!". My current road
bike was expensive 30 years ago but doesn't have much appeal to most
people today. So I can zip down to Folsom, run a few errands and lock
the bike to a lamp post or something. I only take the front light off
and maybe the speedometer. With a Ti bike I could no longer do that so
to me it would be less useful.

In the winter it would be ok because it would be fairly caked with mud.

[Frank Krygowski]

I've been told that having cogs in less-than-perfect angular position
makes the shifting only slightly worse, so that many people wouldn't
even notice the difference.

Related: My wife's touring bike has a mixed-breed system: SunTour index
bar-end shifters, Shimano derailleur and SunTour cogs that lack any
cutouts or ramps at all. (They were originally used for friction
shifting.) Her index shifting is fine, although I may have to keep it
adjusted a little more precisely than other systems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-04 8:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/4/2015 10:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-06-03 7:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason for those wide splines is so each cog of the cassette goes
>>> on in such a manner that the ramps on the cogs line up for the best
>>> shifting. If the ramps don't line up properly then the shifting would
>>> suffer.
>>>
>>
>> I know. But when you buy the cassette it is already riveted together in
>> the correct orientation, only the last sprocket is loose and that has a
>> clear marker arrow.
>>
>> There can't be many people like me hacking cassettes apart and even
>> then, all sprockets have arrows as markers that can be clearly seen
>> after disassembly. I think it could be expected from an average rider or
>> bike mechanic to make sure the markers all end up on top of each other.
>> It's easy.
>
> I've been told that having cogs in less-than-perfect angular position
> makes the shifting only slightly worse, so that many people wouldn't
> even notice the difference.
>

My impression so far is that there is a difference between the old UG
cassette and the new HG sprocket set but not much to write home about. I
believe HG was introduced not so much for faster shifting but for the
ability to shift under load. That's something I try to avoid even on my
MTB. I'd rather stall it out and push the bike up a steep incline rather
than slamming it into low gear.

> Related: My wife's touring bike has a mixed-breed system: SunTour index
> bar-end shifters, Shimano derailleur and SunTour cogs that lack any
> cutouts or ramps at all. (They were originally used for friction
> shifting.) Her index shifting is fine, although I may have to keep it
> adjusted a little more precisely than other systems.
>

When I am through the last Wippermann 5/6 speed chain I am tempted to go
to 7-speed with a KMC chain and look for an indexed lower tube lever. If
one of them fits the old Shimano 600 derailleurs. But it's not at all a
high priority and now that the bike has more useful mountain gearing I
am quite content with it.

[John B.]

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 07:40:50 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

wrote:

>On 2015-06-03 7:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 7:32:11 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2015-06-03 3:40 PM, Duane wrote:
>>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-06-03 5:31 AM, Duane wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>
>>> I also had no choice because Shimano doesn't make these cassettes
>>> anymore. For reasons I don't understand they widened one spline on
>>> the HG hubs, making everything new incompatible with UG hubs.>
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
>> The reason for those wide splines is so each cog of the cassette goes
>> on in such a manner that the ramps on the cogs line up for the best
>> shifting. If the ramps don't line up properly then the shifting would
>> suffer.
>>
>
>I know. But when you buy the cassette it is already riveted together in
>the correct orientation, only the last sprocket is loose and that has a
>clear marker arrow.
>
>There can't be many people like me hacking cassettes apart and even
>then, all sprockets have arrows as markers that can be clearly seen
>after disassembly. I think it could be expected from an average rider or
>bike mechanic to make sure the markers all end up on top of each other.
>It's easy.

That isn't necessarily correct.

I have several Shimano "road bike" cassettes that are simply a bundle
of loose cogs and spacers, and no marks on the cogs to tell you which
way they go. thus the narrow spline.

It may be possible that originally the larger cogs were held together
with tiny little bolts but if they were I don't remember removing the
bolts.

The more recent "Mountain Bike" cassettes I've seen did have the
larger (three I think) cogs riveted to a plastic star shaped mounting
and do not fit directly onto the cassette body.

I've always (at least since the cassette was invented :-) mixed and
matched cogs to get the range and spacing that I want :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 11:47:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 6/4/2015 10:40 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2015-06-03 7:46 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason for those wide splines is so each cog of the cassette goes
>>> on in such a manner that the ramps on the cogs line up for the best
>>> shifting. If the ramps don't line up properly then the shifting would
>>> suffer.
>>>
>>
>> I know. But when you buy the cassette it is already riveted together in
>> the correct orientation, only the last sprocket is loose and that has a
>> clear marker arrow.
>>
>> There can't be many people like me hacking cassettes apart and even
>> then, all sprockets have arrows as markers that can be clearly seen
>> after disassembly. I think it could be expected from an average rider or
>> bike mechanic to make sure the markers all end up on top of each other.
>> It's easy.
>
>I've been told that having cogs in less-than-perfect angular position
>makes the shifting only slightly worse, so that many people wouldn't
>even notice the difference.
>

I think that, perhaps, every bike I have has a "home made" cog set and
I have no problems shifting with indexed shifters. Although I will say
that the bar end friction shifters I have on one bike are by far the
most flexible :-)

>Related: My wife's touring bike has a mixed-breed system: SunTour index
>bar-end shifters, Shimano derailleur and SunTour cogs that lack any
>cutouts or ramps at all. (They were originally used for friction
>shifting.) Her index shifting is fine, although I may have to keep it
>adjusted a little more precisely than other systems.
--

cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 10:20:28 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

My 600 group set, perhaps a later version, had 7 speed indexed Shimano
down tube shifters.

I believe that Shimano may still build seven speed shifters.
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

John B.

Deore cogs are on splines.

where is the source for your custom cogery ?

[Frank Krygowski]

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 9:28:48 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> >
> I think that, perhaps, every bike I have has a "home made" cog set and
> I have no problems shifting with indexed shifters. Although I will say
> that the bar end friction shifters I have on one bike are by far the
> most flexible :-)

I agree. We have folding Bikes Friday with 9 speed Shimano setups, shifted
by bar end shifters. These can be switched from index to friction.

The folding and packing process has often made the index shifting unreliable,
probably due to the contortions and bending of the cables during the fold.
Re-adjusting the index shifting too soon seems to make things worse.
My solution has often been to just shift in friction mode until things
settle down.

- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

Frank Krygowski

////////////////

Fimish Line wax with teflon

[John B.]

I've got a set of friction shifters that I bought from, probably
Velo-Orange, that are a Chinese (maybe Taiwan) made things and I've
had them on every bike, with the exception of my "custom made
lightweight steel road bike", 7, 9, 10 speeds and the lovely thing
about them is that they work on everything :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

yeah me too but unuse able on dirt. dirt anything, forest roads, chip seal.....

[Joerg]

That's what I assumed so I did the obvious, I marked the sprockets
before drilling out the rivets. After disassembly I was pleasantly
surprise that Shimano had already done so.

> It may be possible that originally the larger cogs were held together
> with tiny little bolts but if they were I don't remember removing the
> bolts.
>

Muold UG cassette was bolted. It was easy to unscrew and take apart,
much easier than the new HG MTB cassette that I hacked.

> The more recent "Mountain Bike" cassettes I've seen did have the
> larger (three I think) cogs riveted to a plastic star shaped mounting
> and do not fit directly onto the cassette body.
>

The HG50 has all except the outer cog riveted together.

> I've always (at least since the cassette was invented :-) mixed and
> matched cogs to get the range and spacing that I want :-)

It really seems the way to go. Allows people to adapt the bike to the
geography at hand. Although nowadays I'd just put a MTB cassette on
there. I never understood the sense behind corn cob cassettes. For
flatlanders maybe but not for any serious all-region riding.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-04 6:33 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 10:20:28 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-06-04 8:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> Related: My wife's touring bike has a mixed-breed system: SunTour index
>>> bar-end shifters, Shimano derailleur and SunTour cogs that lack any
>>> cutouts or ramps at all. (They were originally used for friction
>>> shifting.) Her index shifting is fine, although I may have to keep it
>>> adjusted a little more precisely than other systems.
>>>
>>
>> When I am through the last Wippermann 5/6 speed chain I am tempted to go
>> to 7-speed with a KMC chain and look for an indexed lower tube lever. If
>> one of them fits the old Shimano 600 derailleurs. But it's not at all a
>> high priority and now that the bike has more useful mountain gearing I
>> am quite content with it.
>
> My 600 group set, perhaps a later version, had 7 speed indexed Shimano
> down tube shifters.
>
> I believe that Shimano may still build seven speed shifters.

Yes, the Alivio series for example. But that one will not properly work
with my 600 short-cage derailleur. I want to try to leave the bike
original where possible. An indexed 7-speed friction shifter that fits
the 600 short-cage derailluer would sure be nice.

[Joerg]

10-speed with friction shifters? Wow! You must be a violin player to get
those adjusted right after a shift. Even the 6-speed I have now requires
very percise setting but that may be due to the Wippermann chain bein a
bit on the wide side.

Do you know if friction shifting a 7-speed using a KMC X8.93 chain would
work for regular people? Or should I buy a X9.93 and press that into
service for 7-speed?

[avag...@gmail.com]

J dissembled cassettes and cogs and ?????
t o what result ?

J assembled a non standard cassette for the gold miners roads ? what cogs ?

which down which up ? you can do 2 sets !

I enjoy 2 sweet spot cogs a tooth apart.
f
Slocumb hasn't responded on where the mod cogs came from

[John B.]

On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 12:19:31 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

It depends on where you are. I ride in Phuket, Thailand with a 12-34
cassette and in Bangkok, with a slightly heavier bike with a 11-25
cassette and in Bangkok I usually use only one chain ring and the
three center cogs on the cassette. In Phuket I use them all and have
even had to push up a few hills :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 12:22:20 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

When I bought the bike that I now use in Bangkok it had Shimano 600
derailers and Simano indexed 7 speed down tube shifters. I bought the
bike for the frame basically, so never used the derailers as I
re-built it with more modern 9 speed/triple gears, but like all
Shimano down tube shifters (I think) the R.H., rear derailer shifter
is indexed but can be switched to friction and the L.H., front
derailer, is friction only.

If you have down tube mounts of some sort I would thing that a seven
speed index shifter would be fairly easy to find.

I just went and dug the shifters out of the "Junk Box" and they both
are labeled "Shimano600".

I have used these shifters, in friction mode, and had no problems with
them on the original 7 speed, a nine speed and a ten speed, cassette.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 12:29:05 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Not really. I find that one gear shifts are very easy, move the
shifter a bit and you can feel it shift. But any big jumps, say 4 or
five gears, is a bit problematic. Generally it is a matter of giving
the lever a pull and then "fine tuning" a gear or so, up or down,
after it has shifted and you see how you are doing. But BIG shifts all
the way across the cassette are really simple - push/pull the lever
all the way :-)

>Do you know if friction shifting a 7-speed using a KMC X8.93 chain would
>work for regular people? Or should I buy a X9.93 and press that into
>service for 7-speed?

I don't know about the chain but I suspect that a person that had
never ridden a bike that shifted would initially have some problems
with friction shifting. If they had ridden a bike that shifted they
would, probably, be able to cope with things after a mile or so ride,
down to the store and back. On a flat road at first :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

It is easy if you have a dremel and a drill.

> t o what result ?
>

The result is that I can now spool up inclines that were either
torturous before or where I had to walk the bike.

> J assembled a non standard cassette for the gold miners roads ? what cogs ?
>

Right now 13-16-18-21-28-32T. First I had 24 and 28 on the inner ones
but 32 opened up two more grueling hills for me. Once I have used up the
last Wippermann 5/6 speed chain I'll see if I can assemble a 7-speed
with a KMC X8.93 which would give me back the 24T sprocket.

> which down which up ? you can do 2 sets !
>
> I enjoy 2 sweet spot cogs a tooth apart.
> f
> Slocumb hasn't responded on where the mod cogs came from
>

I don't like corn cob cassettes. I've always shifted 2-3 gears at once
on that which is one of the many reasons why I am happier with MTB-style
cassettes.

[Joerg]

Interesting, I had mine apart for cleaning a long time ago and IIRC
that's friction-only. It is from the early 80's.

> If you have down tube mounts of some sort I would thing that a seven
> speed index shifter would be fairly easy to find.
>
> I just went and dug the shifters out of the "Junk Box" and they both
> are labeled "Shimano600".
>
> I have used these shifters, in friction mode, and had no problems with
> them on the original 7 speed, a nine speed and a ten speed, cassette.

Then I should try it once the last old-style chain is used up. Maybe my
bike is just finicky because of the wide chain. I used to not shift a
lot but after staring to ride in this hilly area I have to. It's up and
down all the time.

[Joerg]

I sometimes think that the gear is in alright while it really isn't. I
can't hear the telltale chain noise because of the din of car traffic.
That's why I tend to look back there but that can be iffy in dense traffic.

>> Do you know if friction shifting a 7-speed using a KMC X8.93 chain would
>> work for regular people? Or should I buy a X9.93 and press that into
>> service for 7-speed?
>
> I don't know about the chain but I suspect that a person that had
> never ridden a bike that shifted would initially have some problems
> with friction shifting. If they had ridden a bike that shifted they
> would, probably, be able to cope with things after a mile or so ride,
> down to the store and back. On a flat road at first :-)

I've ridden friction shifter road bikes for decades :-)

Maybe it's just the wide chain. My fairly new MTB has Deore XT index
shifting and that is so much better.

[Joerg]

On 2015-06-06 11:32 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 12:19:31 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-06-04 6:24 PM, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>
>>> I've always (at least since the cassette was invented :-) mixed and
>>> matched cogs to get the range and spacing that I want :-)
>>
>>
>> It really seems the way to go. Allows people to adapt the bike to the
>> geography at hand. Although nowadays I'd just put a MTB cassette on
>> there. I never understood the sense behind corn cob cassettes. For
>> flatlanders maybe but not for any serious all-region riding.
>
> It depends on where you are. I ride in Phuket, Thailand with a 12-34
> cassette and in Bangkok, with a slightly heavier bike with a 11-25
> cassette and in Bangkok I usually use only one chain ring and the
> three center cogs on the cassette. In Phuket I use them all and have
> even had to push up a few hills :-)

Similar here. When I ride around home or east of here I am shifting all
the time. Once down in the flatlands towards Sacramento (California) I
often don't shift for half an hour.

BTW, if you ever get to talk to the tire guys in Thailand (Vee Rubber)
tell them they should build a 29" MTB tire with sturdy sidewalls and
tougher rubber. Dirt bike style. I really like their tires but not the
thin walls.

[avag...@gmail.com]

https://www.google.com/#q=8+speed+mtb+cassettes&tbm=shop&spd=14315862120279728122
ditch the 13 for a 14...
add a 30...see the Altus ? an 11 ? cuckokadoo...dreams of Breckenridge.
Gotta chronic shift problem at point CB ? double the cog ura mssing n try that.
Ugotta be kidding on the 6-7 cogs. Totally bonkers like sing candles.
I hear El Nino iza comin'
Gonnna wash yawl into the ocean.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Sunday, June 7, 2015 at 9:10:20 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
> On 2015-06-06 11:46 PM, John B. wrote:

> >>>
> >>> My 600 group set, perhaps a later version, had 7 speed indexed Shimano
> >>> down tube shifters.
> >>>

> > When I bought the bike that I now use in Bangkok it had Shimano 600
> > derailers and Simano indexed 7 speed down tube shifters. >

> Interesting, I had mine apart for cleaning a long time ago and IIRC
> that's friction-only. It is from the early 80's.
>

> > I just went and dug the shifters out of the "Junk Box" and they both
> > are labeled "Shimano600".
> >
>

> --
> Regards, Joerg
>

Shimano 600 Arabesque was not indexed nor was the early N600. Indexing came a bit later. You can get index to work with the original N600 rear mech if you add the spring loaded barrel adjuster to tthe rear mech so you can fine tune it during setuo.

Btw, Andrew Muzi sells 7-speed downtube shifters for about $50.00 or so.

Cheers

[John B.]

On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 06:10:17 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

I don't know much about chains and shifting. The first multi speed
bike I had was a LeMond steel bike that had a chain and I oiled it
occasionally. Than after I retired in 1991 and we came back to Bangkok
I sold the bike after a day in which I had four flats, on Bangkok
streets, and used up every spare sew-up that I owned :-( sometime
later I bought an aluminum bike to keep on the boat and it had seven
speeds and a chain which I oiled infrequently with the results that
the chain became a solid (rusty) contrivance and the bike wouldn't go
any more. Later I bought another aluminum bike that had a nine speed
system with a chain and I oiled the chain fervently with the results
that my right leg used to have oil spots on it.

So I have learned that, apparently, oiling chains is the secret :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 06:19:03 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Interestingly, the more "up-market" bike shops here don't sell "Vee"
tires. Those seem to be relegated to the "Wallmart" type bikes
(usually with rusty chains :-)

"Real" cyclists, the ones with the color coordinated jerseys and funny
shoes, all ride imported tires.

But on second thought a "Vee" tire in America would be an imported
tire and therefore suitable to be seen with :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.hutchinsontires.com/en/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/7/2015 8:32 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>
> I don't know much about chains and shifting. The first multi speed
> bike I had was a LeMond steel bike that had a chain and I oiled it
> occasionally. Than after I retired in 1991 and we came back to Bangkok
> I sold the bike after a day in which I had four flats, on Bangkok
> streets, and used up every spare sew-up that I owned :-( sometime
> later I bought an aluminum bike to keep on the boat and it had seven
> speeds and a chain which I oiled infrequently with the results that
> the chain became a solid (rusty) contrivance and the bike wouldn't go
> any more. Later I bought another aluminum bike that had a nine speed
> system with a chain and I oiled the chain fervently with the results
> that my right leg used to have oil spots on it.
>
> So I have learned that, apparently, oiling chains is the secret :-)

For a bike on a boat, I wonder if a stainless steel chain would be worth
the cost.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Except you gotta know that stainless chains exist :-) the bike, which
had an aluminum frame and was made in china, I bought - 7 in the
back, 3 in the front, all "Shimano, with reflectors - for 100
Singapore Dollars. In those days maybe 60 - 65 US$.

But yes, a stainless chain and all stainless cables is a good idea for
a "boat bike". Particularly if you keep it on deck :-)

But essentially no matter what you do with a bike on a small boat it
is going to corrode. A friend had a mountain bike on a catamaran and
it rusted so he bought a folding bike and keeps it down below now.
He's only had the bike a year and so far no rust.
--
cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 6/7/2015 8:01 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> http://www.hutchinsontires.com/en/
>


http://bike.michelinman.com/
I fixed that for you.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

That's how it was after we moved from Europe to the Western US. A flat
almost every mile. But because of the dearth of bike paths and
sufficient shoulders I stopped riding altogether so it didn't matter.
Later I found out that two items will fix that problem: Gatorskin tires
plus tubes with 0.120" (3mm) thick sidewalls. Not one lone flat after
that change. As a very nice bonus I no longer have to pump up every
week. Every two months now suffices.


> ... sometime

> later I bought an aluminum bike to keep on the boat and it had seven
> speeds and a chain which I oiled infrequently with the results that
> the chain became a solid (rusty) contrivance and the bike wouldn't go
> any more. Later I bought another aluminum bike that had a nine speed
> system with a chain and I oiled the chain fervently with the results
> that my right leg used to have oil spots on it.
>
> So I have learned that, apparently, oiling chains is the secret :-)

I have mine on a very rigid and thorough maintenance schedule. The MTB
chain gets cleaned and oiled after every ride. Most of my MTB rides are
30-40 miles. If I push it past 50 miles the chain noise becomes horrid.

The Wippermann 5/6 speed road bike chains used to come packed in grease
and I brought spares from Eurooe, needs to be used up since I don't like
throwing stuff away needlesssly plus those chains are really sturdy. The
grease lasts several hundred miles just like the KMC factory lube does.
Afterwards I clean it and switch to White Lightning Epic Ride. It pays
off in many ways to keep a chain in good condition.

Probably due to the occasional offroad stretches the clear lube on the
chain turns black very soon. So yeah, if I touch the outer chain ring
with my right leg there's a nasty smear. For that I carry an extra piece
of Kleenex in a back pocket of my shorts. In the summer I often do not
wear socks so those can't get dirty.

[Joerg]

AFAICT there aren't any adjusters on my 600 rear derailleur, other than
end point screws. It would probably be a bear to make an indexed
downtube lever work with that one.

But that's ok, when I am through the last 5/6 speed chain I'll try a KMC
X8.93 and see if the lever positioning is still as finicky as it is now.
It has become more tricky since I mounted MTB-style gearing in back,
which is sorely needed out here. Yesterday I couldn't have made it home
without that because of many hills and a very hot day.

[AMuzi]

There are other differences besides the cable adjuster as
well. Pre-index rear changers can be often made to shift
with an index lever but poorly at best.

If you prefer clicky systems, just start with a compatible
(post-1984-ish) rear changer. New ones $15up.