Miyata 912 to upgrade or not?
Cary Paugh
mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less. I
bought a new Hybrid bike late this summer and have been riding alot (
for me at least, 500 miles in two months).
I have a couple of friends who have road bikes and I know I would be
able to keep up with them much easier on the old Miyata than my new
Hybrid. I was thinking of upgrading the shifters to STI type and
hopefully move up to a 7 or if possible 8 speed cassette. Do I have to
replace the wheel or just the cassette?
I read a thread here a short while back about doing this on a Lotus
of approximately the same vintage. There appeared to be a lot of
good advise and suggestion and it appears the cost would run between
$200 to 300 to buy the parts. I'm pretty mechanically inclined and
would enjoy the challenge of doing the change over.
My question is: how good a bike is this compared to say a new bike in
the $600 to 800 range? I'd be hard pressed to justify much more that
that. The Hybrid is much more comfortable for trail riding with my
wife and in that case I'm in no hurry. Seems to me I saw a more
recent version of this bike several years ago for over $1200 new
(obviously with newer, probably upgraded components. Mine has Shimano
600 series components through out.
I haven't riden any new road bikes so I don't know what I'm missing.
The Miyata seems very quick and responsive but I have nothing to
compare it to.
Does anyone have any experience on this bike and have an opinion on
the ride vs some of the newer models?
I have no intension of racing or doing any rides longer than maybe 25
to 30 miles at a crack. I would just like tonot be too far behind my
friends on their 27 speed $2000 machines.
Any thought would be greatly appreciated.
Sheldon Brown
> I have a Miyata 912 road bike I bought @ 20-22 years ago. It is in
> mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less.
Oooh, lucky you!
> I have a couple of friends who have road bikes and I know I would be
> able to keep up with them much easier on the old Miyata than my new
> Hybrid. I was thinking of upgrading the shifters to STI type and
> hopefully move up to a 7 or if possible 8 speed cassette. Do I have to
> replace the wheel or just the cassette?
This bike doesn't have a cassette hub, it uses thread-on freewheels.
Converting to 7 is easy, 8 is not a good idea unles you replace the
wheel and go to a cassette hub.
See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html#7
> I read a thread here a short while back about doing this on a Lotus
> of approximately the same vintage. There appeared to be a lot of
> good advise and suggestion and it appears the cost would run between
> $200 to 300 to buy the parts. I'm pretty mechanically inclined and
> would enjoy the challenge of doing the change over.
Sounds like a good plan.
> My question is: how good a bike is this compared to say a new bike in
> the $600 to 800 range? I'd be hard pressed to justify much more that
> that.
You'd have to pay $1000 for a comparable _frame_ let alone a complete
bike. Mid-late '80s Japanese bikes were a spectacular value, back when
the US dollar bought 260 yen. These were really, really nice bikes.
> Does anyone have any experience on this bike and have an opinion on
> the ride vs some of the newer models?
Some of the new plastic or aluminum frames are a bit lighter, but a
good, high-end late-model lugged steel frame like yours is tough to beat.
Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/japan.html" Brown
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Phone 617-244-9772, 617-244-1040 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
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Mike S.
standards, but you have to think about what has become of the component
systems over the years too. Used to be you could toss any old freewheel on
the bike, as long as it had the same number of gears, 'cause the shifters
did not index . Now, with indexing, you need to have at least matching
shifters, rear derailleur, chain, and cassette (# of sprockets).
The biggest improvement that I've seen over the years I've been riding is
the invention of integrated shift/brake levers. If you're going to upgrade
the old Miyata, it makes sense to go to the new brifters, which, like
snowballs rolling downhill, means lots of other little parts too... If
you're going to go that route, does it make sense to half-ass it and buy
outdated 7/8sp parts?
The best recommendation I can give you is to start looking on
rec.bicycles.marketplace, www.roadbikereview.com, www.bikereview.com, and
other websites to see if you can't pick up a build kit for cheap. This will
get you ALL of the related parts you'll need to keep the shifters happy. I
had a friend upgrade his old Peugeot this way. When he was done all that he
had left of the original bike was the frame.
Putting everything together isn't too much different than the old days.
Cables still need to get run, housing cut to length, etc. What is different
is that the derailleurs need to be much more precisely adjusted. With some
futzing around with it, you can probably figure it out on your own. Worst
case is that your LBS can probably show you how to do it for next time.
If you can find a good deal on the parts, it'll be less expensive than a new
bike. The downside to just buying the parts is that if your frame doesn't
fit like it should, you're still stuck with it. Once you have the updated
parts, you may find shortcomings in your old bike. Since you've already
got the parts, you could always buy/have built just a frameset later.
That's my $.02. Anyone else?
"Cary Paugh" <ca...@ahbaier.com> wrote in message
news:hd9uruodni7l9oua2...@4ax.com...
Wayne Pein
> I have a Miyata 912 road bike I bought @ 20-22 years ago. It is in
> mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less. I
> bought a new Hybrid bike late this summer and have been riding alot (
> for me at least, 500 miles in two months).
>
> I have a couple of friends who have road bikes and I know I would be
> able to keep up with them much easier on the old Miyata than my new
> Hybrid. I was thinking of upgrading the shifters to STI type and
> hopefully move up to a 7 or if possible 8 speed cassette. Do I have to
> replace the wheel or just the cassette?
>
My wife has the same bike. It's decent, but nothing special. The wheels
are the worst part. The rims are not hook bead, so you can't put a lot of
pressure in without blowing off the tire, and the spokes are fat straight
gauge zinc (and corroding), rather than thin butted stainless.
I wouldn't upgrade. It's doable, but wouldn't be worth it. Keeping it
vintage has its charms. Changing the shifting won't make you faster. You
could just put on some nice tires and ride it with your friends. Or ride
it with your friends as is.
Wayne
MikeYankee
I've done this with an old 1980's Univega SupraSport. It's a tad heavy and not
as sexy as my Merckx or Bianchi, but it's a really nice ride with that "steel
is real" feel. Over the years I've upgraded it from 6 sp to 7 sp and now 8 sp
Ultegra and changed everything that was originally on the bike except the
Ritchey seatpost. I paid $60 for the bike in '95 or so and have put ~$250 into
it, not to mention my own labor in wheelbuilding, etc. None of this makes
economic sense if I go to sell the bike but it ensures good value while I keep
it.
Miyatas were particularly well made and some models have splined tubing for
added stiffness. Recently I acquired another Univega frame to build up, a
better model called the Gran Premio, which was reportedly built by Miyata.
To use an 8-speed cassette you will need to spread your rear triangle from 126
to 130 mm and realign the droupouts. This is easily doable with a quality
steel frame like your Miyata. An LBS can do it for $25-50 or you can do it
yourself, following the procedure at
http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html.
Address is munged to thwart spammers.
To reply, delete everything after "com".
Garrison Hilliard
Sheldon Brown <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>Cary Paugh wrote:
>> I have a Miyata 912 road bike I bought @ 20-22 years ago. It is in
>> mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less.
>
>Oooh, lucky you!
I agree!
>> I have a couple of friends who have road bikes and I know I would be
>> able to keep up with them much easier on the old Miyata than my new
>> Hybrid. I was thinking of upgrading the shifters to STI type and
>> hopefully move up to a 7 or if possible 8 speed cassette. Do I have to
>> replace the wheel or just the cassette?
>
>This bike doesn't have a cassette hub, it uses thread-on freewheels.
>Converting to 7 is easy, 8 is not a good idea unles you replace the
>wheel and go to a cassette hub.
And, of course, do the chainstay spreading recommended earlier.
p.s. I just wanted to pipe in because I love quality 'eighties
Japanese bikes!
Jkpoulos7
>bike.
Not when you go to Supergo and get a Lemond Buenos Aires for $999. No trouble
keeping up with your friends then
Jon Isaacs
>to 30 miles at a crack. I would just like tonot be too far behind my
>friends on their 27 speed $2000 machines.
I have upgraded quite a few bikes over the years, but some I have kept stock.
I am an opportunist, I ride the bike and discover whether I like it or not,
whether it fits me and find out what is wrong with it. Then when the parts
come along at the right price, I buy.
Some thoughts and recommendations:
1. Put some new tires on this bike, tune it up and ride it for while. Find out
if it really fits you and if you like riding road bikes. Sure STI is nice, but
it ain't that nice.
2. The difference between a new bike with 27 speeds and your 12 speed bike is
minimal in terms of performance. Keeping up with the Jones is about being in
good shape, having a good motor. Sure, sometimes those added gears help a tad
but in reality, anything that you can do with a 12-25 9 speed cog set you can
essentially as well with a 13-24 cog set. If it turns out you need a triple
crank, get one.
So, I say, put the bike on the road and get some miles on it. Have fun with
it. Sure your friends may give you a bit of heat for having an older bike.
But when you smoke em on the hills because you have been riding your bike, they
will be wondering to themselves why they spent that $2000 and you will be
smiling inside knowing that they are wondering.
jon isaacs
John Flynn
>
> You'd have to pay $1000 for a comparable _frame_ let alone a complete
> bike. Mid-late '80s Japanese bikes were a spectacular value, back when
> the US dollar bought 260 yen. These were really, really nice bikes.
I bought a 912 from The Cyclery in Corvallis, OR in 1986, on
end-of-season sale for $390. The next year the dollar sand, and the
price went to $850. I still have the bike as a back-up. A bit worse for
wear, but it rides as smoothly as my Pinarello--also oldie. It's still
friction but with a 7-sp cluster. When I ride it I wonder, "Why did I
ever stop riding this bike?" Hmmm...new paint, new cable guides. That's
all it would take.
~John
John Flynn
>
> I have no intension of racing or doing any rides longer than maybe 25
> to 30 miles at a crack. I would just like tonot be too far behind my
> friends on their 27 speed $2000 machines.
>
You won't be. I occasionally ride my '86 912 on a local Saturday
ride--not a hammer-head ride, but we average 20-22 mph over a 40 mi.
hilly course. It does have a 7 sp. freewheel, but this was merely a
screw-on replacement. I later changed to cassette, because I kept
bending axles. Also put on aero brake levers 'cause I got tired of
losing bananas. Still d/t friction shifting. As another poster noted,
it's the engine, not the bike. The Miyata has never held me back.
Jay Beattie
"Sheldon Brown" <capt...@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:3DBF33C2...@sheldonbrown.com...
> Cary Paugh wrote:
> > I have a Miyata 912 road bike I bought @ 20-22 years ago. It is in
> > mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less.
<snip>
> You'd have to pay $1000 for a comparable _frame_ let alone a complete
> bike. Mid-late '80s Japanese bikes were a spectacular value, back
when
> the US dollar bought 260 yen. These were really, really nice bikes.
A comparable frame does not come immediately to mind. The Miyata 912
had a long wheel base for a quasi-racer, rack eyelets, some pretty slack
angles and super beefy triple butted tubes. It was my idea of a perfect
touring bike -- but then I like really stiff touring bikes. IMO, this
kind of frame has vanished from the market only to be replaced by
inexpensive aluminum racing frames with no eyelets or tire clearance. I
don't know the market that well anymore, but maybe there is an
equivalent from one of the retro steel builders like Rivendell. -- Jay
Beattie.
Sheldon Brown
>>>I have a Miyata 912 road bike I bought @ 20-22 years ago. It is in
>>>mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less.
I replied:
>>You'd have to pay $1000 for a comparable _frame_ let alone a complete
>>bike. Mid-late '80s Japanese bikes were a spectacular value, back
>>when the US dollar bought 260 yen. These were really, really nice bikes.
Jay Beattie wrote:
> A comparable frame does not come immediately to mind. The Miyata 912
> had a long wheel base for a quasi-racer, rack eyelets, some pretty slack
> angles and super beefy triple butted tubes. It was my idea of a perfect
> touring bike -- but then I like really stiff touring bikes. IMO, this
> kind of frame has vanished from the market only to be replaced by
> inexpensive aluminum racing frames with no eyelets or tire clearance. I
> don't know the market that well anymore, but maybe there is an
> equivalent from one of the retro steel builders like Rivendell. -- Jay
> Beattie.
Right, Rambouillet http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rambouillet.html
also Heron http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/heron.html
Sheldon "Acier Avec Raccords" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has |
| seen and thinking what no one else has thought. |
| - Albert Szent-Gyorgi |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
Sheldon Brown
>>>I have a Miyata 912 road bike I bought @ 20-22 years ago. It is in
>>>mint condition with I doubt over 1500 miles on it. Maybe less.
I replied:
>>You'd have to pay $1000 for a comparable _frame_ let alone a complete
>>bike. Mid-late '80s Japanese bikes were a spectacular value, back
>>when the US dollar bought 260 yen. These were really, really nice bikes.
Jay Beattie wrote:
> A comparable frame does not come immediately to mind. The Miyata 912
> had a long wheel base for a quasi-racer, rack eyelets, some pretty slack
> angles and super beefy triple butted tubes. It was my idea of a perfect
> touring bike -- but then I like really stiff touring bikes. IMO, this
> kind of frame has vanished from the market only to be replaced by
> inexpensive aluminum racing frames with no eyelets or tire clearance. I
> don't know the market that well anymore, but maybe there is an
> equivalent from one of the retro steel builders like Rivendell. -- Jay
> Beattie.
Right, Rambouillet http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rambouillet.html
also Heron http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/heron.html
Sheldon "Acier Avec Raccords" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has |
| seen and thinking what no one else has thought. |
| - Albert Szent-Gyorgi |
+-------------------------------------------------------+
SteelTheOne
couple of years ago(I wanted the 912 but didn't have the extra $$$ at
the time). Here's what happened. I started out thinking I could get
away with $200-300 to upgrade to STI, but ended up replacing the
entire drivetrain rather than trying to mix and match old/new
technology in an effort to save money. I ended up with new gears
(9speed Shimano 105), new crank & bottom bracket and new wheels(which
takes care of the cassette/freewheel problem). I just shoved the new
rear wheel into to old spacing (130mm vs.126), no real problem there.
I ended up spending about $700 including tools. Shimano gives great
installation instructions with all of their components. It was a fun
project and when I was done I knew a lot more about bicycle mechanics
than when I started, plus I had a ride that was much nicer than any
$700 bike on the market.
I rode the bike for about a year like that. STI makes a big
difference, safer not having to take your hands off the bars, and
easier on hills being able to shift during climbs/decents.
After a year, I ended up replacing the frame(Gunnar Roadie) and
striping the Miyata of the gears and wheels(Mine was not in mint
condition like yours). The Miyata now hangs on the garage wall as bike
art. The Gunnar gives a similar ride and is about 2 pounds lighter,
not a big difference really.
Cary Paugh <ca...@ahbaier.com> wrote in message news:<hd9uruodni7l9oua2...@4ax.com>...
Richard Chan
1. Clipless pedals and some good shoes (not cheap).
2. Change the large chainring to ones with shifting ramps/pins.
3. Better wheels/tires/hubs/cogs profiled for better shifting.
4. Brifters.
I didn't list small details like new chain, better brake rubbers, ...
and other minor stuff (understood). These upgrade parts should be
transferrable to a new frame when you decide to change out your
Miyata.
Bruce Jackson
One data point, I worked at a shop that sold both Miyatas and LeMonds
in the 80's. It was mighty hard to sell LeMonds after folks test rode
them and then the much cheaper Miyatas. Miyatas put a lot of much
more expensive bikes to shame.
Sadly I didn't jump when I had the chance to buy a Team Miyata in my
size and now they don't export to the US any more.
I do agree that it would be silly to go overboard upgrading the bike.
Ride it as it is and upgrade/update a few things at a time when you
can no longer resist.
--
Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP
Harris
> Some thoughts and recommendations:
> 1. Put some new tires on this bike, tune it up and ride it for while. Find out
> if it really fits you and if you like riding road bikes. Sure STI is nice, but
> it ain't that nice.
> 2. The difference between a new bike with 27 speeds and your 12 speed bike is
> minimal in terms of performance. Keeping up with the Jones is about being in
> good shape, having a good motor. Sure, sometimes those added gears help a tad
> but in reality, anything that you can do with a 12-25 9 speed cog set you can
> essentially as well with a 13-24 cog set. If it turns out you need a triple
> crank, get one.
Very true. One not-too-expensive upgrade to consider though would be
clipless pedals. Those would likely increase performance more than 9 cogs.
Art Harris
Matt O'Toole
"Harris" <aha...@bookworm.suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in message
news:unbw9.20251$T_.4...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
> Very true. One not-too-expensive upgrade to consider though would be
> clipless pedals. Those would likely increase performance more than 9 cogs.
Great suggestion. Clipless pedals are the #1 cycling innovation in the last
20 years.
Matt O.
Jkpoulos7
>> minimal in terms of performance.
I noticed a substantial increase in my performance and ability to ride faster
and longer going from an '87 Panasonic 12 speed to an '02 Lemond Buenos Aires.
New bikes are just plain better.
gsk
I was thinking of upgrading the shifters to STI type and
> hopefully move up to a 7 or if possible 8 speed cassette. Do I have to
> replace the wheel or just the cassette?
Do definately upgrade the Miyata. I did the same thing with a lovely mid
80's Miele. But don't spend a lot of money. The cheap way is to 1) get
clipless pedals 2) replace the 6 sp freewheel with a seven sp. If you have
friction shifting you don't have to replace the shifters. If indexed you can
pick up 7 sp shifters for a psalm on ebay, as well as 7 sp freewheels. 3)
Move the shifters off the downtubes with brakets from the Kelly Bike Co.
http://www.kellybike.com/comp_access.html I use these on my Miele and can
shift 99% as convenient as with the Ultegra STI on my new bike. They are
also a lot cheaper than an STI upgrade.
Jon Isaacs
>faster
>and longer going from an '87 Panasonic 12 speed to an '02 Lemond Buenos
>Aires.
>New bikes are just plain better.
This is commonly known as the "new bike syndrome." Goes away after a while.
Of course sometimes the new bike fits better or there is something wrong with
the old bike.
But then sometimes the old bike fits better and is faster.
Jon Isaacs
MikeYankee
http://www.kellybike.com/comp_access.html
Very clever! I've never seen these before. How do they install? (Kelly's
installation page doesn't come up when you click on it.)
Mike Latondresse
news:20021031173652...@mb-cn.news.cs.com:
New BLUE bikes are substantially faster. New bikes of any other colour
arn't any faster than your old one.
Jkpoulos7
>arn't any faster than your old one.
>
The LeMond is RED so it is the fastest possible while the Panasonic is black so
is a bit slower. My C'dale MTB is mango so it is the slowest of all.
Jon Isaacs
>so
>is a bit slower. My C'dale MTB is mango so it is the slowest of all.
My TT bike was Pink with blue and white splatter. I have had it painted
orange.
I am hoping it will be faster.
Jon Isaacs
Cary Paugh
I started out to upgrade the shifters, rear freewheel, chain etc. It
turns out I have one of the very early shimano free hubs, a Uniglide,
I think it's called. The bottom line is, it is not replaceable. I
would have had to get a new hub or wheel. Now the price of this was
getting more than I wanted to spend.
I was able to find a pair of shimano 7 speed bar end shifters a my LBS
and figured this would be better than the drop tube shifters. I got
them and the nessesary cable stop etc.
I completely tore the bike down cleaned and relubed everything. I
didn't have the tool for the BB and my LBS didn't have one for sale so
I just had them replace the BB with a shimano sealed cartridge unit.
I put everything back together, added clipless pedals and it's just
like new.
The bar end shifters are definately a step down from the STI but a
step up from the drop tube type.
The bike seems to be at least 4-5 mph fast than my hybrid.
All in all it was a fun project and I learn a lot about the bike.
Thanks again for everyones thoughts and suggestions, this is a great
newsgroup.
Jon Isaacs
the bike and the new ride.
A couple of comments:
1. Uniglide. A new freehub is pretty cheap, especially 7 speed. Unless your
current hub is DA, you should be able to replace the freehub with a Hyperglide
hub.
2. That cartridge BB is a smart idea.
Enjoy your bike and have a good ride.
jon isaacs
Sheldon Brown
> 1. Uniglide. A new freehub is pretty cheap, especially 7 speed. Unless your
> current hub is DA, you should be able to replace the freehub with a Hyperglide
> hub.
This is _generally_ true, but not in this specific case. The earliest
Shimano 5- and 6-speed Freehubs had the body swaged to the shell, and
the body is not replaceable.
These are very rarely seen, as Freehubs didn't really catch on 'til the
beginning of the 7-speed era.
This type can be identified by the lack of the characteristic bulge on
the right end of the hub spool...they look just like old style thread-on
hubs. (This is true of most of the Freehubs made since the late '90s as
well, but the irreparable Uniglide hubs were an early '70s thing.)
Sheldon "Always Exceptions" Brown
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Richard Chan
> Snip ... I want to thank everyone for their responses. Thanks again for everyones thoughts and suggestions, this is a great newsgroup.
Glad to hear you enjoyed the journey. It is not hard at all, really.
Keep your eyes open for good deals on the rec.bicycles.marketplace
newsgroup and roadbikereview.com. Wheelsets (and other components) can
be had for dirt cheap. Sometimes you have to buy the whole bike to get
to the groupo (we can never have enough bikes can we?). I would
suggest you go right to 9 speeds on your next upgrade (even if you
choose Campy). Stock pile consumables such as chains, ... when they go
on sale.