7 speed Suntour and Shimano compatibility
Ferdinando pertusio
Hi all,
My Cannondale M1000 sports a Suntour 7 speed rear derailleur with xc-pro
shifters. The rear derailleur is wrecked, and I now have to fix the system.
Because Suntour stuff is now almost impossible to find, I would please like
to know:
-Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
(a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
shifters
-Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
Thanks for any help you are able to provide,
Ferdy
Milan, Italy
per...@mbox.vol.it
Kristan Roberge
per...@mbox.vol.it (Ferdinando pertusio) wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> My Cannondale M1000 sports a Suntour 7 speed rear derailleur with xc-pro
> shifters. The rear derailleur is wrecked, and I now have to fix the system.
> Because Suntour stuff is now almost impossible to find, I would please like
> to know:
>
> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
> (a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
> derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
> shifters
Yes the derailleurs are compatible, as are the shifters and cassettes.
>
> -Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
Almost a perfect match.
>
>
BottomBracket
On 21 Dec 1996 18:18:27 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
>per...@mbox.vol.it (Ferdinando pertusio) wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My Cannondale M1000 sports a Suntour 7 speed rear derailleur with xc-pro
>> shifters. The rear derailleur is wrecked, and I now have to fix the system.
>> Because Suntour stuff is now almost impossible to find, I would please like
>> to know:
>>
>> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
>> (a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
>> derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
>> shifters
>
>Yes the derailleurs are compatible, as are the shifters and cassettes.
No they are not, You can not fit suntour cassettes on Shimano hubs and
via versa. Also the shifter levers pull a different length of cable.
>
>>
>> -Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
>> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
>
>Almost a perfect match.
Almost will not work!!
Suntour shifters will not move the RD the correct amount they are set
to pull the distance between suntour cogs / cassettes. Oh it will
work Almost, but will never be good clean shifting.
Dump the whole drive train and buy Shimano.
>>
>>
Kristan Roberge
AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) wrote:
>
> On 21 Dec 1996 18:18:27 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >per...@mbox.vol.it (Ferdinando pertusio) wrote:
>> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
> >> (a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
> >> derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
> >> shifters
> >
> >Yes the derailleurs are compatible, as are the shifters and cassettes.
>
> No they are not, You can not fit suntour cassettes on Shimano hubs and
> via versa. Also the shifter levers pull a different length of cable.
Sigh...
#1 He was asking about the compatibility of the index spacing, NOT THE
spline pattern of the cogs...
#2 The shifters pull an almost identical amount of cable. I've got plenty
of bikes with mixed shimano/suntour drivetrains to know they work together.
> >> -Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
> >> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
> >
> >Almost a perfect match.
> Almost will not work!!
Really? Explain then how I'm running 7speed XC-Pro thumbshifter, with
an XC-Comp ShortCage MD derailleur and an 8-speed 11-28 shimano cassette
and getting perfect shifts?!?
> Suntour shifters will not move the RD the correct amount they are set
> to pull the distance between suntour cogs / cassettes. Oh it will
> work Almost, but will never be good clean shifting.
> Dump the whole drive train and buy Shimano.
The difference is cable pull is miniscule, you can correct for this
with the floating pulley on the shimano derailleurs (Suntour doesn't
need a floating pulley because they designed their derailleurs better),
and you need only look as far as the almost entire 1994 Kona lineup to
see this (about 75% of the model line used XC-Pro thumbshifters and
Deore LX, XT, or XTR derailleurs).
Vincent Cheng
BottomBracket (AluB...@Mud.com) wrote:
:
: Suntour shifters will not move the RD the correct amount they are set
: to pull the distance between suntour cogs / cassettes. Oh it will
: work Almost, but will never be good clean shifting.
: Dump the whole drive train and buy Shimano.
Have you actually tried it? I have used mixed Suntour and shimano a lot
and it works well. In all cases, if you have a functional floating top
pulley(you can make one for Suntour derailleur very very easily), the
combo is going to work. I have mixed everything and the only thing that
will not fit are the cogs on the hubs. The splines are different.
Vince
--
--
***************************************************************************
Vincent Cheng**2nd Year Mechanical Engineering Co-op**University of Alberta
vcc...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca http://gpu.srv.ualberta.ca/~vccheng/
Creative Web Catchers HTML Designer*http://www.cwc.cban.com
Maintainer for Mountain Biking FAQ*http://www.ualberta.ca/~vccheng/faq.html
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Columnist-Gearhead MTB e-zine*http://www.gearhead.com/
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***************************************************************************
BottomBracket
On 22 Dec 1996 20:11:47 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
wrote:
>AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) wrote:
>>
>> On 21 Dec 1996 18:18:27 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >per...@mbox.vol.it (Ferdinando pertusio) wrote:
>>> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
>> >> (a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
>> >> derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
>> >> shifters
>> >
>> >Yes the derailleurs are compatible, as are the shifters and cassettes.
>>
>> No they are not, You can not fit suntour cassettes on Shimano hubs and
>> via versa. Also the shifter levers pull a different length of cable.
>
>Sigh...
>
>#1 He was asking about the compatibility of the index spacing, NOT THE
>spline pattern of the cogs...
Cogs... I think you mean cassette..
Mearly pointing out that they are not comparable, You apparently think
they are.
So OK he does not want to fit a new cassette but I would love to know
how to fit a shimano cassette onto a Suntour free hub?
>
>#2 The shifters pull an almost identical amount of cable. I've got plenty
>of bikes with mixed shimano/suntour drivetrains to know they work together.
What's this almost stuff? I get three to four bikes a week through my
workshops with this same problem and the owners all want to make one
work with the other. It will work, and sometime we make it work for
them, but it will never work well.
>
>> >> -Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
>> >> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
>> >
>> >Almost a perfect match.
>> Almost will not work!!
>
>Really? Explain then how I'm running 7speed XC-Pro thumbshifter, with
>an XC-Comp ShortCage MD derailleur and an 8-speed 11-28 shimano cassette
>and getting perfect shifts?!?
Rear Derailleurs will work with any system, they are not indexed or
hadn't you noticed?..
Thumb shifters do not need to be indexed you can use the friction
mode...But anyway I suspect you would not know a perfect shift if it
fell on the trail in front of you!!
>> Suntour shifters will not move the RD the correct amount they are set
>> to pull the distance between suntour cogs / cassettes. Oh it will
>> work Almost, but will never be good clean shifting.
>> Dump the whole drive train and buy Shimano.
>
>The difference is cable pull is miniscule, you can correct for this
>with the floating pulley on the shimano derailleurs (Suntour doesn't
>need a floating pulley because they designed their derailleurs better),
>and you need only look as far as the almost entire 1994 Kona lineup to
>see this (about 75% of the model line used XC-Pro thumbshifters and
>Deore LX, XT, or XTR derailleurs).
Yeh right, derailleurs are not indexed...........
But I don't understand what you are saying 'cos you just shot yourself
in your foot. Read what you wrote.
Steve Mattingly
In article <32be41c2...@207.126.101.78> AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) writes:
>From: AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket)
>Subject: Re: 7 speed Suntour and Shimano compatibility
>Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:21:13 GMT
>On 21 Dec 1996 18:18:27 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
>wrote:
>>per...@mbox.vol.it (Ferdinando pertusio) wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My Cannondale M1000 sports a Suntour 7 speed rear derailleur with xc-pro
>>> shifters. The rear derailleur is wrecked, and I now have to fix the system.
>>> Because Suntour stuff is now almost impossible to find, I would please like
>>> to know:
>>>
>>> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
>>> (a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
>>> derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
>>> shifters
>>
>>Yes the derailleurs are compatible, as are the shifters and cassettes.
>No they are not, You can not fit suntour cassettes on Shimano hubs and
>via versa. Also the shifter levers pull a different length of cable.
>>
>>>
>>> -Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
>>> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
>>
>>Almost a perfect match.
>Almost will not work!!
>Suntour shifters will not move the RD the correct amount they are set
>to pull the distance between suntour cogs / cassettes. Oh it will
>work Almost, but will never be good clean shifting.
>Dump the whole drive train and buy Shimano.
Please feel free to TRY the Shimano RD with the Suntour setup and SEE if it
works first. It WILL work fine as I've done it for years. If you have XC Pro
thumbies, it works great even compared to Shimano RF+, the older Suntour RF
system (forget the name) isn't as good, but is QUITE acceptable. The cog
spacing is different on Shimano and Suntour, but the float takes care of the
discrepancies. The cassettes are not interchangable from Shimano and Suntour.
If you have Suntour wheels, buy some cassetttes while you can find them.
I will admit that I keep my cables lubed, and my drivetrain clean (shouldn't
you?...) and that makes things work much better than if they ever get totally
dry and filthy. Maybe that would make the drivetrain have problems that
surfaced, but otherwise, try it.
Kristan Roberge
AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) wrote:
>
> On 22 Dec 1996 20:11:47 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Sigh...
> >
> >#1 He was asking about the compatibility of the index spacing, NOT THE
> >spline pattern of the cogs...
>
> Cogs... I think you mean cassette..
No, I mean cogs. Do you know what a cassette is?!? A cassette is an
assembly of individual cogs that are installed onto a freehub body
(often in one piece). Shimano cogs are joined together by rivets or screws
or form part of a cast-alloy body. Suntour cogs are joined together with
small pins. The term cassette really applies only to the fact that the cogset
is seperate from the ratchet mechanism (freehub body) versus a freewheel
which intergrates the cogset and ratchet into one unit.
> Mearly pointing out that they are not comparable, You apparently think
> they are.
> So OK he does not want to fit a new cassette but I would love to know
> how to fit a shimano cassette onto a Suntour free hub?
Sigh...
Your pretending to be this dumb right? Its all just an act right? You
weren't really born this way were you?!?
Where did the discussion go from the original poster asking if shimano
and suntour indexing (and the associated parts) were compatible to
fitting shimano cassettes onto suntour freehubs?!?
> >#2 The shifters pull an almost identical amount of cable. I've got plenty
> >of bikes with mixed shimano/suntour drivetrains to know they work together.
>
> What's this almost stuff? I get three to four bikes a week through my
> workshops with this same problem and the owners all want to make one
> work with the other. It will work, and sometime we make it work for
> them, but it will never work well.
Suntour 7-speed spacing is almost identical to shimano 7speed spacing
(suntour uses 3.1mm spacers and 2.0mm thick cogs, shimano a mix of 3.3
and 3.1mm spacers and 1.9mm thick cogs) and the derailleurs are compatible
with each other IF you know how to set them up properly (and especially
if you know the design differences). The 8-speed spacing is an even
closer match (suntour uses 3.0mm spacing just like shimano, only the
cogs are a bit thicker).
> >Really? Explain then how I'm running 7speed XC-Pro thumbshifter, with
> >an XC-Comp ShortCage MD derailleur and an 8-speed 11-28 shimano cassette
> >and getting perfect shifts?!?
>
> Rear Derailleurs will work with any system, they are not indexed or
> hadn't you noticed?..
> Thumb shifters do not need to be indexed you can use the friction
> mode...But anyway I suspect you would not know a perfect shift if it
> fell on the trail in front of you!!
Rear derailleurs will work with any system in friction mode but NOT in
index mode. Different companies design their derailleurs with a different
shaped cage and body which can drastically affect how far the pulleys
move from side to side for each click of the shifter.Shimano and
Suntour derailleurs do NOT put the cages and pulleys in the same place
for example, and this has an effect on the shifting. On a suntour derailleur
the upper pulley is centered on the cage pivot-point (just like on the
new gripshift derailleurs), because of this, a floating pulley is NOT
required to get crisp, clean shifts. On a shimano derailleur the upper
pulley is about 1cm BELOW the cage pivot-point, so a floating pulley
IS required to get crisp, clean shifts.
> >The difference is cable pull is miniscule, you can correct for this
> >with the floating pulley on the shimano derailleurs (Suntour doesn't
> >need a floating pulley because they designed their derailleurs better),
> >and you need only look as far as the almost entire 1994 Kona lineup to
> >see this (about 75% of the model line used XC-Pro thumbshifters and
> >Deore LX, XT, or XTR derailleurs).
>
> Yeh right, derailleurs are not indexed......
No shit sherlock, though suntour DID produce a group where the derailleur
was the part which was indexed and the shifter was not.
....
Joshua_Putnam
In <32c1b7a7...@207.126.101.78> AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) writes:
>On 22 Dec 1996 20:11:47 GMT, Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com>
>wrote:
>>>> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible?
>>#1 He was asking about the compatibility of the index spacing, NOT THE
>>spline pattern of the cogs...
>Cogs... I think you mean cassette..
>Mearly pointing out that they are not comparable, You apparently think
>they are.
Actually, in the case of SunTour, like earlier Shimano stuff
before spider-type carriers, the cassette cogs are individually
replaceable, so there's no particular reason to differentiate
between the spline pattern of the cogs and that of the cassette
as a whole. They are the same.
The spacing of Suntour and Shimano 7 speed cassettes is not the
same, but it is very close, and most well-adjusted index systems
can cope with the difference. (After all, both Shimano and
Suntour systems can use Sachs freewheels, for example.)
All this assumes he's talking about cassette systems, not
freewheels, which is a possibility with 7speed Suntour.
>>#2 The shifters pull an almost identical amount of cable. I've got plenty
>>of bikes with mixed shimano/suntour drivetrains to know they work together.
>What's this almost stuff? I get three to four bikes a week through my
>workshops with this same problem and the owners all want to make one
>work with the other. It will work, and sometime we make it work for
>them, but it will never work well.
Simply untrue. If competently set up a Suntour/Shimano mix can
work as well as a single-company setup.
>>> >> -Is the cog spacing on a 7 speed Suntour cassette the same as the spacing
>>> >> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
>>> >
>>> >Almost a perfect match.
>>> Almost will not work!!
>>
>>Really? Explain then how I'm running 7speed XC-Pro thumbshifter, with
>>an XC-Comp ShortCage MD derailleur and an 8-speed 11-28 shimano cassette
>>and getting perfect shifts?!?
>Rear Derailleurs will work with any system, they are not indexed or
>hadn't you noticed?..
That's not quite right. The ratio of cable pull to derailleur
travel varies depending on the parallelogram dimensions, so while
the derailleur does not have the detents for the indexing in it,
it does need to have index-compatible geometry.
Consider, for example, the box below, representing a rear
derailleur parallelogram:
|===================|
=== |
| |
| |
|======A==*==B======|
If your derailleur cable enters on the left end at the ===, you
will get two different ratios of cable pull to derailleur travel
depending on whether your cable terminates at A or B. If your
shifters were designed to have the cable routed to one side of
the clamp bolt *, but you route it to the other side, you will
move the derailleur a different amount than the designers
intended with each click of the shifter.
So rear derailleurs definitely are an integral part of the index
system, and it's entirely false to say any rear derailleur will
work if your shifters and cassette match.
--
Jo...@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh
Vincent Cheng
BottomBracket (AluB...@Mud.com) wrote:
:
: Cogs... I think you mean cassette..
: Mearly pointing out that they are not comparable, You apparently think
: they are.
: how to fit a shimano cassette onto a Suntour free hub?
You know what a cog is, don't you? A cog is the little rings in the back
with the little teeth on them to grab the chain. A group of them riveted
together is called a cassette. The splines are cut on the cogs
individually. No one ever said we can use them together.
: What's this almost stuff? I get three to four bikes a week through my
: workshops with this same problem and the owners all want to make one
: work with the other. It will work, and sometime we make it work for
: them, but it will never work well.
perhaps you need a better mechanic in your shop.
: Rear Derailleurs will work with any system, they are not indexed or
: hadn't you noticed?..
I gather that your "workshop" never get to work on Dura-Ace stuff, eh?
: Thumb shifters do not need to be indexed you can use the friction
: mode...But anyway I suspect you would not know a perfect shift if it
: fell on the trail in front of you!!
again, we are talking about indexing, not friction. if you ask 10
competent mechanics, 9 will be able to get this combo to work, the other
one can't get it to work because he doesn't know how to make a floating
pulley for Suntour derailleurs.
: Yeh right, derailleurs are not indexed...........
let's go back to the early 80's or the late 70's...remember the real old
Shimano 5 speed indexed Positron derailleurs with 2 cables running to the
rear derailleur? I don't really remember them being around seeing how I
was about 3 years old back then, but I sure have seen and worked on them
and know that indexing can be achieved in many ways.
: But I don't understand what you are saying 'cos you just shot yourself
: in your foot. Read what you wrote.
Same goes for you.
Kristan Roberge
jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
>
> In <32c1b7a7...@207.126.101.78> AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) writes:
>
>
> >workshops with this same problem and the owners all want to make one
> >work with the other. It will work, and sometime we make it work for
> >them, but it will never work well.
>
> work as well as a single-company setup.
Exactly. For example, I got bored lastnight, and completed the assembly
of my thunderbolt. I'm mixing Deore XT thumbshifters, a Deore XT
rear derailleur, and a 7-speed Suntour ACCUSHIFT 13-30 freewheel. The
indexing took 5 minutes to dial in and all I had to adjust was the
shifter cable tension. Its NOT super fast or smooth shifting (nor
should it be expected since accushift cogs are the same as SIS, simply
index spaced with no fancy ramps or teeth), but its accurate and
reliable. On another bike I have XC-Pro thumbshifters, XC-Comp derailleurs
and an 8-speed 11-28 cassette assembled from individual shimano cogs
and spacers. I used an 11T M737 XT cog, a 12T HG90 cog, a 14T XTR
cog, and 16/18/21/24/28T HG90 cogs. The shifting is super-smooth and
accurate, better in fact than I've ever found on an ALL shimano equipped
drivetrain.
> >Rear Derailleurs will work with any system, they are not indexed or
> >hadn't you noticed?..
>
> That's not quite right. The ratio of cable pull to derailleur
> travel varies depending on the parallelogram dimensions, so while
> the derailleur does not have the detents for the indexing in it,
> it does need to have index-compatible geometry.
>
> Consider, for example, the box below, representing a rear
> derailleur parallelogram:
>
> |===================|
> === |
> | |
> | |
> |======A==*==B======|
>
> If your derailleur cable enters on the left end at the ===, you
> will get two different ratios of cable pull to derailleur travel
> depending on whether your cable terminates at A or B. If your
> shifters were designed to have the cable routed to one side of
> the clamp bolt *, but you route it to the other side, you will
> move the derailleur a different amount than the designers
> intended with each click of the shifter.
Good explanation and diagram. As a specific example, look at PRE-97
DuraAce rear derailleurs, unlike the rest of the shimano rear derailleur
family, where the cable enters a path say at the "A", on the duraAce
derailleur the cable goes through a slot IN the cable fixing bolt at
the "*". This accounts for the incompatibility of DuraAce derailleurs
with other shimano shifters. For '97 shimano has added an extra slot
for the cable to be routed just like on the other derailleurs at the
"A" as well as the hole thru the bolt at the "*" to allow compatibility
with the old DuraAce as well as the new parts. Now some people (Steve
and Cara spring to mind as a perfect example) assume that because shimano
only now puts this in the manual that NO ONE else has ever thought of
this method for adjusting the setup of DuraAce derailleurs to work with
other shimano shifters. I've been modifying DuraAce derailleurs myself
since about 1991 with a dremel tool by adding the slot to change the
cable path and have been telling people about this trick for almost
as long.
Kristan Roberge
vcc...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (Vincent Cheng) wrote:
>
> BottomBracket (AluB...@Mud.com) wrote:
>>
> : Yeh right, derailleurs are not indexed...........
>
> let's go back to the early 80's or the late 70's...remember the real old
> Shimano 5 speed indexed Positron derailleurs with 2 cables running to the
> rear derailleur? I don't really remember them being around seeing how I
> was about 3 years old back then, but I sure have seen and worked on them
> and know that indexing can be achieved in many ways.
Doh! Now I remember why those fancy new White Industries rear derailleurs
looked familiar (with the one long loop of derailleur cable)... they're
just a neat variation of the old Positron derailleurs... I wonder why
no magazine writer has clued in to this yet?!?
JThomp4613
A good source for Suntour parts via U.S. mail order is Loose Screws at
phone #
541-488-4800. They have good supply and good service.
John Winchell
Ferdinando pertusio wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> My Cannondale M1000 sports a Suntour 7 speed rear derailleur with xc-pro
> shifters. The rear derailleur is wrecked, and I now have to fix the system.
> Because Suntour stuff is now almost impossible to find, I would please like
> to know:
>
> -Are Suntour and Shimano 7 speed systems compatible? If this where the case
> (a long shot, I know) all I would have to do is buy a Shimano rear
> derailleur to get indexed shifting with the Suntour cassette and xc
> shifters
>
> on a 7 speed Shimano cassette?
>
relate my own experience with Shimano/Suntour compatibility. I used to
have a Kona Hahanna (circa'94) w/Shimano Altus parts. Now eventually I
wanted to get myself a Suntour XC Pro MD group for whatever "ultimate
bike" I ended up with (a pipedream, considering SuntourU.S. went
bankrupt recently). I somehow ended up going through several strange
older Shimano RD derailleur combos before I cracked the frame and got a
'95 Lava Dome.
I had a Deore LX l.cage for a little while on the bike, then switched
to an XC Pro s.cage I found @ a shop nearby. I also had XT II topmounts
(7 spd.) and proceeded to run the derailleur friction and rode on my
merry way. For the whole time I used that clicker I COULDN'T index the
shift detent between it & the XTs to save my life. Keep in mind the rest
of my drivetrain was Shimano STX HD-C. Now I am sure you cannot
perfectly match Shimano shifters w/Suntour derailleurs through hours of
trial & mainly error.
The index detent on the shifters is off just enough to through the
derailleur out of wack...oh, you can try to jury-rig it all you want,
but it just won't work well. So, if Shimano shifters can't work
w/Suntour derailleurs, how the hell are Suntour shifters going to work
with a Shimano derailleur? They likely won't. The basic point is that
Shimano & Suntour have similar, but DIFFERENT cog-spacing & cable pull
within their respective shift systems.
The whole idea of trying to mix the gruppos @ all is simply asking for
trouble. Granted, there are some success stories and that's great! I
wanted SOO badly to match mine up, but wasn't able to. To those of you
who have, congratulations. You achieved something I could not. But you
did so @ the cost of drastically altering either one or another
component in the system to overcompensate for a true lack of
compatibility.
Ferdy, if you can find yourself a Suntour derailleur, more power to
you. Otherwise, good luck w/compatibility...you'll need it. Hope this
helped. Actually, not to spark another fiery thread of controversy, how
about trying a newer Sachs derailleur? I know the cogsets & chains are
compatible with @ least Shimano (unsure about Suntour, though)
drivetrains. Anyone from the peanut gallery care to comment?
that's all for now.
John
"How can anybody be enlightened? Truth is after all so poorly lit."
- Neil Peart
Mark McMaster
Kristan Roberge wrote:
>
> Suntour 7-speed spacing is almost identical to shimano 7speed spacing
> (suntour uses 3.1mm spacers and 2.0mm thick cogs, shimano a mix of 3.3
> and 3.1mm spacers and 1.9mm thick cogs) and the derailleurs are compatible
> with each other IF you know how to set them up properly (and especially
> if you know the design differences). The 8-speed spacing is an even
> closer match (suntour uses 3.0mm spacing just like shimano, only the
> cogs are a bit thicker).
Well, just for accuracy, Suntour uses several different spacer
thicknesses in different positions. For 7 speed, the top 2 spacers are
3.3mm (some of them are even labeled "3.3mm 2nd position"), the bottom 4
are 2.8mm, and the cogs are 1.9mm thick, for an average of 4.87mm. For
8 speed, the top 2 spacers are 3.3mm, the next 2 are 3.0mm, and the
bottom 3 are 2.8mm, with the same cogs as 7 speed, for an average of
4.9mm (these measurements both from Suntour literature and my own
personal measurements). I used the differing spacer thicknesses to my
advantage when adapting a Suntour cassette hub to work with a Campy
derailleur and shifter (Campy: 3.15mm spacers and 1.9mm cogs) by
alternating 3.0mm and 3.3mm spacers between the cogs.
> Rear derailleurs will work with any system in friction mode but NOT in
> index mode. Different companies design their derailleurs with a different
> shaped cage and body which can drastically affect how far the pulleys
> move from side to side for each click of the shifter.Shimano and
> Suntour derailleurs do NOT put the cages and pulleys in the same place
> for example, and this has an effect on the shifting. On a suntour derailleur
> the upper pulley is centered on the cage pivot-point (just like on the
> new gripshift derailleurs), because of this, a floating pulley is NOT
> required to get crisp, clean shifts. On a shimano derailleur the upper
> pulley is about 1cm BELOW the cage pivot-point, so a floating pulley
> IS required to get crisp, clean shifts.
The upper pulley is centered on the cage pivot point only for the long
cage derailleurs (GX type). The pulley is offset similarly to Shimano
for the medium (GT) and short (SS) cage derailleurs. Also, all Suntour
road derailleurs similarly had offset and non-floating top pulleys.
Perhaps you could explain why a non-centered pulley requires a floating
top pulley?
(Warning: the following is unsubstantiated inference) I was under the
impression that Shimano added the floating top pulley because its cog
tooth shapes (first the SIS twist tooth and then Hyperglide) were so
aggressive, and unless perfectly centered would clatter and be noisy.
The floating top pulley allowed the chain to find its neutral position.
Suntour Accushift tooth profiles were less aggressive, and needed a
firmer push to move the chain from one cog to the next, and a floating
top pulley would rob the derailleur of some of the lateral travel the
chain need to be engage the next cog. In my own personal experience, I
adapted a Suntour freehub and cogs for use with Campy derailleur and
shifters, and the floating top pulley of a Campy derailleur seemed to
give imprecise shifting. Replacing it with a non-floating pulley made
the shifting much crisper.
Mark McMaster
MMc...@ix.netcom.com
Sheldon Brown
Joshua_Putnam wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> > > >[much grumpy, ill-tempered blather from others snipped]
Hey, guys, lighten up, this is just a minor technical disagreement,
nothing to get hot under the collar about! It is too early in the
winter to give in to cabin fever.
> >Rear Derailleurs will work with any system, they are not indexed or
> >hadn't you noticed?..
>
> That's not quite right. The ratio of cable pull to derailleur
> travel varies depending on the parallelogram dimensions, so while
> the derailleur does not have the detents for the indexing in it,
> it does need to have index-compatible geometry.
>
> Consider, for example, the box below, representing a rear
> derailleur parallelogram:
>
> |===================|
> === |
> | |
> | |
> |======A==*==B======|
>
> If your derailleur cable enters on the left end at the ===, you
> will get two different ratios of cable pull to derailleur travel
> depending on whether your cable terminates at A or B. If your
> shifters were designed to have the cable routed to one side of
> the clamp bolt *, but you route it to the other side, you will
> move the derailleur a different amount than the designers
> intended with each click of the shifter.
>
> So rear derailleurs definitely are an integral part of the index
> system, and it's entirely false to say any rear derailleur will
> work if your shifters and cassette match.
Josh, very nice use of ASCII graphics, and excellent explanation.
I would add that there is often a possibility of fiddling around
with the cable attachment to make things work that the are not
s'posed to be compatible. Some derailers, including the '97 Dura
Ace, allow the option of "A" or "B" attachment, depending on which
shifters are to be used.
It is also often possible to fine tune things by slightly bending
the cable, or by filing the bent washer that holds it. The "A"
position causes the derailer to move farther per click, so if the
derailer moves too far, you need to relocate the cable toward "B",
and conversely.
I have one of my bikes set up using Campagnolo Ergo shifters with
Shimano Derailer and 7-speed cassette. I changed the geometry of
the cable housing stop by installing the metal part of a Grip
Shift "Bassworm", which displaced the housing stop. (I will soon
put a more thorough explanation of this technique on my Web site,
once I get a decent photo scanned in...)
Merry Christmas!
Sheldon "Impossible? Hah!" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts
+-----------------------------------------------+
| I don't need instructions, I have a hammer. |
| -- T.W. Wier |
+-----------------------------------------------+
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/biz/hub/
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
(617) 244-1040 FAX 244-1041
Jeffrey Potoff
Weird. By that time Suntour had been manufacturing derailleurs
that matched the cable pull of Shimano shifters (they even
said so themselves). There used to be some major incompatibilities
back around '90 or '91, though. I put (this was in 1993) a
Shimano LX derailleur on a Suntour XC-Expert equipped bike
and had it working in under 5 minutes. No problems with the
indexing.
>
> The index detent on the shifters is off just enough to through the
> derailleur out of wack...oh, you can try to jury-rig it all you want,
> but it just won't work well. So, if Shimano shifters can't work
> w/Suntour derailleurs, how the hell are Suntour shifters going to work
> with a Shimano derailleur? They likely won't. The basic point is that
> Shimano & Suntour have similar, but DIFFERENT cog-spacing & cable pull
> within their respective shift systems.
Not true. I've interchanged Suntour 7sp freewheel and Shimano
7sp cassette rear wheels with no difference in the quality
of the shifting (the shifter/derailleur combo was 1991 or '92 (?)
Deore DX).
Jeff
Kristan Roberge
John Winchell <j...@petes-house.rochester.ny.us> wrote:
>
> wanted to get myself a Suntour XC Pro MD group for whatever "ultimate
> bike" I ended up with (a pipedream, considering SuntourU.S. went
> bankrupt recently)
Not a pipedream. Suntour USA (which was simply the importer/distributor
for North America) may have shutdown operations for about 18 months but
SR/Suntour Japan is STILL in business and in fact are re-entering
the north american market for '97 with a new group and a new suspension
fork.
> The index detent on the shifters is off just enough to through the
> derailleur out of wack...oh, you can try to jury-rig it all you want,
> but it just won't work well. So, if Shimano shifters can't work
> w/Suntour derailleurs, how the hell are Suntour shifters going to work
> with a Shimano derailleur? They likely won't. The basic point is that
> Shimano & Suntour have similar, but DIFFERENT cog-spacing & cable pull
> within their respective shift systems.
Shimano shifters DO in fact work with a suntour derailleur. I have
an XTR shifter driving an XC-Comp middle-cage rear derailleur right now.
There are 3 basic tricks to mixing the shifters and derailleurs.
#1 Adjusting the shifter cable tension. Suntour derailleurs have a
higher return spring tension but their pivots tend to be tighter as
suntour assembles their derailleurs to closer tolerances so you'll
get best results if the cable is actually SLACK when your in the
smallest cog. Otherwise your the shifter won't upshift from large to
small cogs properly.
#2 If you get any chain-chatter when index shifting, its because the
pulleys and chain aren't lining up exactly (you may notice this ONLY
when pedaling in one direction) with the cogs. If you notice it when
back pedaling you should loosen the bolt on the upper pulley. If you
notice it when pedaling forward, loosen the bottom pulley bolt. Suntour
derailleurs in general DO NOT need the lateral float of the upper pulley
that shimano derailleurs require, but it would be nice if the pulleys
wiggled a bit on their bolts to self-align to the chain angle.
#3 Getting the B-tension position adjusted properly helps alot when shifting'
into the larger cogs. Oh, Also realizing that with shimano thumbshifters
its possible to overshift slightly when going from small to large cogs
and in fact, this is sort of an unwritten requirement that shimano designed
into the shifters. This can help that sluggish downshift without messing
with the derailleur (important to consider if its upshifting fine).
> The whole idea of trying to mix the gruppos @ all is simply asking for
> trouble. Granted, there are some success stories and that's great! I
> wanted SOO badly to match mine up, but wasn't able to. To those of you
> who have, congratulations. You achieved something I could not. But you
> did so @ the cost of drastically altering either one or another
> component in the system to overcompensate for a true lack of
> compatibility.
If you've worked on the various systems (shimano, suntour, Campy, Sachs,
mavic) for long enough they can all be VERY compatible with each other.
If however you've ONLY ever worked on a shimano setup, and then started
to try mixing in other components, but DID NOT know their particular
setup requirements, then your screwed.
> Ferdy, if you can find yourself a Suntour derailleur, more power to
> you. Otherwise, good luck w/compatibility...you'll need it. Hope this
> helped. Actually, not to spark another fiery thread of controversy, how
> about trying a newer Sachs derailleur? I know the cogsets & chains are
> compatible with @ least Shimano (unsure about Suntour, though)
> drivetrains. Anyone from the peanut gallery care to comment?
> that's all for now.
>
Be careful WHICH Sachs group you use. They make TWO distinct sets of cogs
and shifters (the derailleurs fortunetly are the same). One is shimano
spaced with a mix of 3.1mm and 3.3mm spacers for 7speed, and ALL 3.0mm
spacers for 8speed. While the other is Sachs spaced, which is ALL 3.1mm
spaced regardless of 7 or 8 speeds.
Kristan Roberge
Mark McMaster <MMc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Well, just for accuracy, Suntour uses several different spacer
> thicknesses in different positions. For 7 speed, the top 2 spacers are
> 3.3mm (some of them are even labeled "3.3mm 2nd position"), the bottom 4
> are 2.8mm, and the cogs are 1.9mm thick, for an average of 4.87mm. For
> 8 speed, the top 2 spacers are 3.3mm, the next 2 are 3.0mm, and the
> bottom 3 are 2.8mm, with the same cogs as 7 speed, for an average of
> 4.9mm (these measurements both from Suntour literature and my own
> personal measurements).
Well, I can't argue the measurements of the spacers at the moment as
the battery in my digital caliper is now dead as a doornail and it
hasn't been giving me great resuls for the previous 12 months
either. BUT I did measure the cogs when the battery was new and they
ARE 2.0mm thick for not only MD 7 and 8 speed cassettes, but also
non-microdrive 7speed powerflo cogs, and accushift 6speed FW cogs, As
for the suntour literature, does it specifically mention the cog
thickness?!? Oh, and which are the bottom spacers and which are the top
spacers that you refer to?!? Is the top the smallest cogs or the largest
cogs?!?
> I used the differing spacer thicknesses to my
> advantage when adapting a Suntour cassette hub to work with a Campy
> derailleur and shifter (Campy: 3.15mm spacers and 1.9mm cogs) by
> alternating 3.0mm and 3.3mm spacers between the cogs.
I've got a Ti cogset running on a shimano 7speed shifter that's shifting
perfectly. 2.0mm thick cogs matched to 3.0mm spacers (versus the shimano
1.9mm cogs and 3.1mm spacers).
> Perhaps you could explain why a non-centered pulley requires a floating
> top pulley?
When the chain is installed and in usage, the derailleur cage is under
a load and tends to twist slightly, often towards the spokes/wheel. You
can see this to a greater effect on long cage derailleurs than on short
cage models. The further the upper pulley is from the pivot point the
greater the deflection from the cog. At most this usually only means
a missalignment of about .5mm but by a striking coincidence, that's about
the same amount of lateral movement possible with a shimano floating pulley.
a 0.5mm deflection may seem insignificant, but its generally enough to
mess up your shifting (usually only affects downshifts).
> (Warning: the following is unsubstantiated inference) I was under the
> impression that Shimano added the floating top pulley because its cog
> tooth shapes (first the SIS twist tooth and then Hyperglide) were so
> aggressive, and unless perfectly centered would clatter and be noisy.
Actually most of the chain clatter comes from the angle of the chain as it
meets the cogs/pulleys. You'll often notice with aftermarket pulleys
that when the bolts are fully tightened, you get chain-chatter in the
larger cogs as the cage deflects under the chainload. The solution is
to loosen the pulley bolts which allows the pulleys to self-align
their angle in relation to the chain links.
The new gripshift ESP derailleurs do NOT use a floating top pulley
yet they index fine with HG cogs. Hell, Suntour MD/Powerflo II cogs
have fancy teeth and ramps on them, and they don't use a floating
pulley either. Really the best explanation for the floating pulley is
to make up for the lack of tolerances in the manufacturing of shimano
derailleurs. Shimano had shitty tolerances when they first began to
sell index shifting (but they weren't about to advertise this fact,
so they instead lied to the consumer and told them that a floating
pulley was an absolute requirement for good index shifting) which Suntour
and Campy both had super-tight tolerances in their manufacturing. Campy
only recently went to a floating pulley design for example.
Mark McMaster
Kristan Roberge wrote:
>
> Mark McMaster <MMc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, just for accuracy, Suntour uses several different spacer
> > thicknesses in different positions. For 7 speed, the top 2 spacers are
> > 3.3mm (some of them are even labeled "3.3mm 2nd position"), the bottom 4
> > are 2.8mm, and the cogs are 1.9mm thick, for an average of 4.87mm. For
> > 8 speed, the top 2 spacers are 3.3mm, the next 2 are 3.0mm, and the
> > bottom 3 are 2.8mm, with the same cogs as 7 speed, for an average of
> > 4.9mm (these measurements both from Suntour literature and my own
> > personal measurements).
>
> Well, I can't argue the measurements of the spacers at the moment as
> the battery in my digital caliper is now dead as a doornail and it
> hasn't been giving me great resuls for the previous 12 months
> either. BUT I did measure the cogs when the battery was new and they
> ARE 2.0mm thick for not only MD 7 and 8 speed cassettes, but also
> non-microdrive 7speed powerflo cogs, and accushift 6speed FW cogs, As
> for the suntour literature, does it specifically mention the cog
> thickness?!? Oh, and which are the bottom spacers and which are the top
> spacers that you refer to?!? Is the top the smallest cogs or the largest
> cogs?!?
The literature I referred to is the leaflet that Suntour supplied with
each cassette, which included an exploded view of the cassette and
indicated the spacer thicknesses. By the top spacers, I meant the ones
between the smaller cogs, and the bottom spacers are the ones between
the larger cogs. Since the spacers are molded plastic, their actual
thicknesses vary quite a bit, but generally within +/- 0.1mm of
specified value. The literature does not mention the cog thicknesses,
so this evening I grabbed a random assortment of 5 Accushift Plus cogs
and 6 PowerFlo cogs, and found the AP cog thicknesses to varied from
1.90mm to 2.02mm, with a mean of 1.964mm, and the PowerFlo cog
thicknesses varied from 1.90mm to 2.00mm, with a mean of 1.965mm. So
based on these measurements, you are slightly more right than I am about
cog thicknesses.
Hmmm ... This is first time I've heard this particularly explanation,
although I have quized many shop mechanics, and it actually makes more
sense than most that I've heard. In his book, "Upgrading Your Bike,"
Frank Berto says, "Shimano designed the SIS rear derailleurs with a
'Centeron' jockey pulley that can float back and forth so the chain can
center itself in the quiet zone. Shimano can use a self-centering
pulley because all the rest of the SIS gear train has very tight
tolerances." But I have always observed a little torsional slop in all
derailleurs, causing the twist you describe. A top pulley which is free
to move laterally would seem to help to correct for the lateral bias of
the derailleur twist. I'm not saying that I completely agree with your
theory, but I'm not disagreeing with it either.
When you suggest loosening the pulley bolts, do you mean that you keep
them loose, and if so how do keep them from falling out, or that you
re-tighten them after they have shifted into a new alignment?
Mark McMaster
MMc...@ix.netcom.com
Kristan Roberge
Mark McMaster <MMc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> The literature I referred to is the leaflet that Suntour supplied with
> each cassette
I think I might have one of those leaflets somewhere in my collection
of shimano, campy, and suntour literature. Maybe I'll go check later
when I recover from all the food I've eaten today.
> the larger cogs. Since the spacers are molded plastic, their actual
> thicknesses vary quite a bit, but generally within +/- 0.1mm of
> specified value.
Which explains why I scored a 3.1mm with a couple of the spacers I
measured.
> so this evening I grabbed a random assortment of 5 Accushift Plus cogs
> and 6 PowerFlo cogs, and found the AP cog thicknesses to varied from
> 1.90mm to 2.02mm, with a mean of 1.964mm, and the PowerFlo cog
> thicknesses varied from 1.90mm to 2.00mm, with a mean of 1.965mm. So
> based on these measurements, you are slightly more right than I am about
> cog thicknesses.
I've never found a shimano cog thicker than 1.91mm as I recall, unfortunetly
I can't check at the moment although I do have plenty of cogs to
measure.
> Hmmm ... This is first time I've heard this particularly explanation,
> although I have quized many shop mechanics, and it actually makes more
> sense than most that I've heard.
Careful, people who agree with my explanations seem to get labeled as
quacks around here by those who disagree (which I guess means that
Jobst is a quack since he has agreed with me on a couple occassions
<grin>).
> Frank Berto says, "Shimano designed the SIS rear derailleurs with a
> 'Centeron' jockey pulley that can float back and forth so the chain can
> center itself in the quiet zone.
They actually named it a Centeron G-pulley but whatever... the damn thing
is basically useless. I've got aftermarket pulleys on 3 out of 4 rear
derailleurs at the moment (when I assembled my thunderbolt the other
night, I decided to wait until I upgraded the chain,chainrings,cogset
to use the new pulleys) on my 4 active bikes at the moment. None of
them have a "centeron" type bushing (although QBP Shift Biscuits and
TNT pulleys now have floating upper bushings) but they all are adjusted
to "wiggle" to self-align to the chain. I've got a shimano DX shortcage
derailleur setup this way, as well as an XC-Comp MD shortcage and
an XC-Comp middle-cage.
> the derailleur twist. I'm not saying that I completely agree with your
> theory, but I'm not disagreeing with it either.
There's hope for you yet... :)
> When you suggest loosening the pulley bolts, do you mean that you keep
> them loose, and if so how do keep them from falling out, or that you
> re-tighten them after they have shifted into a new alignment?
I mean that the bolts are loose enough that you can actually move
the cage plates a bit. The bolts are still engaging all the threads I
just don't have them reefed on so tight that they can't move a bit.
I've NEVER lost a bolt or a pulley in all the years that I've been
adjusting my derailleurs this way. Remembering to grease or loctite
the bolts helps to keep them rattling loose on their own.
Baird Webel
In article <59rroi$2...@news.istar.ca>,
Kristan Roberge <krob...@magi.com> wrote:
>Actually most of the chain clatter comes from the angle of the chain as it
>meets the cogs/pulleys. You'll often notice with aftermarket pulleys
>that when the bolts are fully tightened, you get chain-chatter in the
>larger cogs as the cage deflects under the chainload. The solution is
>to loosen the pulley bolts which allows the pulleys to self-align
>their angle in relation to the chain links.
you mean loosening the bolts on which the pulleys turn? this doesn't seem
like a good idea, I've had a couple pulleys go flying off the derailleur
because I didn't have the bolts tight and they loosened up all the way. Are
you locktighting the bolts, or is it another set of bolts we are talking
about?
>
>The new gripshift ESP derailleurs do NOT use a floating top pulley
>yet they index fine with HG cogs. Hell, Suntour MD/Powerflo II cogs
>have fancy teeth and ramps on them, and they don't use a floating
>pulley either. Really the best explanation for the floating pulley is
>to make up for the lack of tolerances in the manufacturing of shimano
>derailleurs. Shimano had shitty tolerances when they first began to
>sell index shifting (but they weren't about to advertise this fact,
>so they instead lied to the consumer and told them that a floating
>pulley was an absolute requirement for good index shifting) which Suntour
>and Campy both had super-tight tolerances in their manufacturing. Campy
>only recently went to a floating pulley design for example.
I had the impression that the floating pulley also corrected to some degree
for mis-aligned derailleur hangers? Given some of the stuff that low end
shimano goes on, this wouldn't seem an unlikely occurence.
baird
Kristan Roberge
web...@gusun.georgetown.edu (Baird Webel) wrote:
>
> you mean loosening the bolts on which the pulleys turn? this doesn't seem
> like a good idea, I've had a couple pulleys go flying off the derailleur
> because I didn't have the bolts tight and they loosened up all the way. Are
> you locktighting the bolts, or is it another set of bolts we are talking
> about?
See my reply to mark...
> I had the impression that the floating pulley also corrected to some degree
> for mis-aligned derailleur hangers? Given some of the stuff that low end
> shimano goes on, this wouldn't seem an unlikely occurence.
It doesn't do diddly for a bent derailleur hanger (which is about the
only way to miss-align the damn things - bend the dropout in a crash
or after catching the derailleur on something solid) as even a slight
change in the hanger angle will introduce such a margin of error into
the cage and pulley position that after the first cog the 1mm of total
lateral float in the pulley will be completely used up. After the first
cog the shifting quality goes right out the window.
Dave Wiesenhahn
> > Well, just for accuracy, Suntour uses several different spacer
> > thicknesses in different positions. For 7 speed, the top 2 spacers are
> > 3.3mm (some of them are even labeled "3.3mm 2nd position"), the bottom 4
> > are 2.8mm, and the cogs are 1.9mm thick, for an average of 4.87mm. For
> > 8 speed, the top 2 spacers are 3.3mm, the next 2 are 3.0mm, and the
> > bottom 3 are 2.8mm, with the same cogs as 7 speed, for an average of
> > 4.9mm (these measurements both from Suntour literature and my own
> > personal measurements).
> Well, I can't argue the measurements of the spacers at the moment as
> the battery in my digital caliper is now dead as a doornail and it
> hasn't been giving me great resuls for the previous 12 months
> either. BUT I did measure the cogs when the battery was new and they
> ARE 2.0mm thick for not only MD 7 and 8 speed cassettes, but also
> non-microdrive 7speed powerflo cogs, and accushift 6speed FW cogs, As
> for the suntour literature, does it specifically mention the cog
> thickness?!? Oh, and which are the bottom spacers and which are the top
> spacers that you refer to?!? Is the top the smallest cogs or the largest
> cogs?!?
I can confirm these measurements for my non-microdrive powerflo 7 speed
cassette (AP II-A). Yes, the suntour literature that I received from
their tech support (when they were in business - I can send you a copy if
you wish) does specifically mention the spacer thickness. The thicker
spacers are between the smallest cogs; the thinner spacers are between the
larger cogs.
Dave Wiesenhahn | My old red bike gets me around
IDA | To the beaches and bars of my town
Alexandria, VA | You can have the rest of everything I own
dwies...@ida.org | 'Cause I have found me a home
| J.B.
Mike and Debbie Thompson
Kristan Roberge wrote:
>
> jo...@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam) wrote:
> >
> > In <32c1b7a7...@207.126.101.78> AluB...@Mud.com (BottomBracket) writes:
> >
> >
> > >What's this almost stuff? I get three to four bikes a week through my
> > >workshops with this same problem and the owners all want to make one
> > >work with the other. It will work, and sometime we make it work for
> > >them, but it will never work well.
> >
> > Simply untrue. If competently set up a Suntour/Shimano mix can
> > work as well as a single-company setup.
>
> Exactly. For example, I got bored lastnight, and completed the assembly
> of my thunderbolt. I'm mixing Deore XT thumbshifters, a Deore XT
> rear derailleur, and a 7-speed Suntour ACCUSHIFT 13-30 freewheel. The
> indexing took 5 minutes to dial in and all I had to adjust was the
> shifter cable tension. Its NOT super fast or smooth shifting (nor
> should it be expected since accushift cogs are the same as SIS, simply
> index spaced with no fancy ramps or teeth), but its accurate and
> reliable. On another bike I have XC-Pro thumbshifters, XC-Comp derailleurs
> and an 8-speed 11-28 cassette assembled from individual shimano cogs
> and spacers. I used an 11T M737 XT cog, a 12T HG90 cog, a 14T XTR
> cog, and 16/18/21/24/28T HG90 cogs. The shifting is super-smooth and
> accurate, better in fact than I've ever found on an ALL shimano equipped
> drivetrain.
>
> > >hadn't you noticed?..
> >
> > That's not quite right. The ratio of cable pull to derailleur
> > travel varies depending on the parallelogram dimensions, so while
> > the derailleur does not have the detents for the indexing in it,
> > it does need to have index-compatible geometry.
> >
> > Consider, for example, the box below, representing a rear
> > derailleur parallelogram:
> >
> > |===================|
> > === |
> > | |
> > | |
> > |======A==*==B======|
> >
> > If your derailleur cable enters on the left end at the ===, you
> > will get two different ratios of cable pull to derailleur travel
> > depending on whether your cable terminates at A or B. If your
> > shifters were designed to have the cable routed to one side of
> > the clamp bolt *, but you route it to the other side, you will
> > move the derailleur a different amount than the designers
> > intended with each click of the shifter.
>
> DuraAce rear derailleurs, unlike the rest of the shimano rear derailleur
> family, where the cable enters a path say at the "A", on the duraAce
> derailleur the cable goes through a slot IN the cable fixing bolt at
> the "*". This accounts for the incompatibility of DuraAce derailleurs
> with other shimano shifters. For '97 shimano has added an extra slot
> for the cable to be routed just like on the other derailleurs at the
> "A" as well as the hole thru the bolt at the "*" to allow compatibility
> with the old DuraAce as well as the new parts. Now some people (Steve
> and Cara spring to mind as a perfect example) assume that because shimano
> only now puts this in the manual that NO ONE else has ever thought of
> this method for adjusting the setup of DuraAce derailleurs to work with
> other shimano shifters. I've been modifying DuraAce derailleurs myself
> since about 1991 with a dremel tool by adding the slot to change the
> cable path and have been telling people about this trick for almost
> as long.
Thanks for the tip. Thought I knew everything. By the way, some of
your links. OH!!!!!..... Some of my guys and gals want to meet you but
I'm afraid we're much too far from Canada. So you're safe.
Mike
--
Mike Thompson
Mud Sweat & Gears
http://www.bikeusa.com
5340 NW Cache Rd.
Lawton, OK 73505
405-355-1808
800-933-1808
poss
Why don't you all just shut up? There are so many different variables,
model changes, spec changes and other issues involved: derailleur hanger
shape, drop, fore and aft position, straightness; chain length,
derailleur attitude (and I don't mean grumpy or smiley); total tooth
difference in cluster; total tooth difference in drivetrain; (as well as
some of those mentioned; these are the ones off the top of my head, that
without a full set of technical notes and specs for each component, a
good hard look at the bike and a fair dollop of experience, nothing
useful can be said about any specific case. So go back and read and
examine before you make asinine and bandwidth-wasting assertions on the
basis of personal experience of one or two drivetrains.
Pissed off with bigmouths.
Kristan Roberge
poss <bea...@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>
> Why don't you all just shut up? There are so many different variables,
> model changes, spec changes and other issues involved: derailleur hanger
> shape, drop, fore and aft position,
Fortunetly these tend to be pretty standardized now. If they weren't, no
two shimano drivetrains would work the same on frames from different
manufacturers.
> derailleur attitude (and I don't mean grumpy or smiley); total tooth
> difference in cluster; total tooth difference in drivetrain;
Let's see... shimano and Suntour have been producing almost identical
sized cogsets for years, as has Campy and Sachs. If the total difference
in cogset REALLY made that much difference, then you'll have a hard
time explaining why a a shimano longcage derailleur could work with
anything from a 12-28 to a 13-34 cogset. That's a 16T to a 21T spread
there. Or why a shortcage can work with anything from a 12-19 to a
12-28 (according to shimano's conservative reccomendations), that's a 7T to
16T spread, Shimano derailleurs are basically copied from Suntour
derailleurs, and the cage lengths are a close match, and they both use
the same size pulleys. Chainring spreads have been held to a similar
standard for years as well. Suntour and shimano used 24-36-46 for
standard 74/110 cranks for about a decade, and Suntour invented the
microdrive spread of 20-32-42 and shimano patterned their compact cranks
after suntour's.
(as well as
> some of those mentioned; these are the ones off the top of my head, that
> without a full set of technical notes and specs for each component, a
> good hard look at the bike and a fair dollop of experience, nothing
> useful can be said about any specific case.
Well, its clear you lack the dollop of experience anyways. If you
don't like the postings, don't read them. SIMPLE.
> So go back and read and
> examine before you make asinine and bandwidth-wasting assertions on the
> basis of personal experience of one or two drivetrains.
Ahem. In the last 5 years alone, I've owned a total of about 25 different
mountain bikes. At least half of those used a mized shimano/suntour
drivetrain. None of them had any compatibility problems. Amongst my
circle of friends I ride with, we can add another 50 bikes or so, again
with at least half of those mixing shimano and suntour. Again, no
problems.