Further discussion of tire width

[AMuzi]

https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-wider-tires-are-not-slower/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2022 12:42 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-wider-tires-are-not-slower/

Saw that.

I wonder if anyone here is riding extra wide tires with extra thin
sidewalls, which seems to be what Jan Heine mostly promotes.



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-wider-tires-are-not-slower/
>

That’s certainly my experience, over a decade of Strava etc, across road
bikes from 23-35mm.

Fast times seem be, when I can be assed rather than the bike as such!

Roger Merriman.

[Roger Merriman]

To the extreme they did that with MTB plus tires ie 2.8/3in tyres to reduce
weight the sidewalls where thin, so the tires buckle under load.

Depends on the Gravel folks are riding but I tend to play it safe and keep
it fairly conservative, as Gravel tires you can and I have ripped sidewalls
out!

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On new bikes that's a very popular format.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/gun213a.jpg

[John B.]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 11:42:50 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-wider-tires-are-not-slower/

Well, according to that article the average sped of two different
width tires was 28 mm - 27.636 km/h and 44 mm - 27.564 km/h, or about
0.004625 km/h per mm. So, logically 100 mm increase in width would
have resulted in nearly 0.4625 km/h increase and 200mm would have been
a skinch under 1 km/h increase. And, Good Lord! a 300mm increase in
width would have been 1.3875 km/h faster, or (in Americanese) some 0.8
mph. (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Ralph Barone]

Extrapolating from there, a set of 345/35VR15 Pirelli P7 bike tires would
be even faster. No wonder they put those on older Lamborghinis.

[Axel Reichert]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> I wonder if anyone here is riding extra wide tires with extra thin
> sidewalls, which seems to be what Jan Heine mostly promotes.

Nowadays I would not consider 38 mm as extra wide for a randonneur bike,
but yes, back in 2017 I abused a Rene Herse Extralight of this width on
some almost MTB-like stuff in the Swiss Alps. Since I was extremely
suspicious after unpacking this featherweight just prior to my vacation,
I took an old worn-out, almost done-for Conti Top Contact II as a
spare. But my worries were unfounded, the "Barlow Pass" specimen took
the abuse without any problems. On asphalt it was also fabulous.

I had only two flats in quick succession at the very end of its (short)
lifetime and took this as a hint to replace it.

Best regards

Axel

[Frank Krygowski]

Thanks for the report. Any estimate of how many miles it lasted?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Axel Reichert]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

[Rene Herse Barlow Pass Extralight 38-622]

> Any estimate of how many miles it lasted?

About 3000 km at the rear. For comparison: My Schwalbe Marathon Supreme
42-622 (nominally, but it measures almost the same as the Barlow Pass)
is still alive with 16500 km at the rear. Same bike, same riding style
with perhaps 10 percent gravel.

Axel

[Andre Jute]

On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 9:07:40 AM UTC, Axel Reichert wrote:

>My Schwalbe Marathon Supreme
> 42-622 (nominally, but it measures almost the same as the Barlow Pass)
> is still alive with 16500 km at the rear. Same bike, same riding style
> with perhaps 10 percent gravel.
>

I'm not surprised. I have a set of Schalke Marathon Plus thrown off for being godawfully uncomfortable at about 6000 miles, all tarmac but very poor, potholed, chipsealed surfaces -- and showing hardly any wear.

Also, I have a set of Big Apples 60x622 taken off another bike at 8500km for no better reason than that it suited the gearbox oil change cycle. The Big Apples start out with a merely cosmetic tread to pacify the morons who refuse to grasp that a treaded tyre should be the exception created by the circumstance, not the norm, at least for tarmac riders. At the front, the ultra-thin tread was hardly worn, at the back the tread was just worn off so that the tyre was a slick.

I take it you're aware of the Schwalbe advice that one can ride their tyres with anti-puncture bands until you can see the color of the anti-puncture band on the rolling surface. After a thorough inspection of the Big Apples I took off, which were the first folding model, supposedly lighter than the others at the time (the folding sidewall has since been made the standard on all the Big Apples), I decided that they were likely good, especially if swapped around back to front and front to back, for at least another 8500km.

That surprised me. A lot, as on all the tyres I used previously, before I got fed up enough to investigate the matter and consequently switched to Schwalbe tyres, I was lucky to get a thousand miles per pair and my LBS had halfway convinced me I was a tyre- and -transmission wrecker, which would be surprising as in motor racing I was known for my gentle touch on tyres, gearboxes and women. As soon as I investigated chains as well, and switched to KMC's better chains, my chain troubles went away too. It wasn't me, it was the cheap trash tyres and chains the LBS fitted.

Andre Jute
A little, a very little thought will suffice. -- Maynard Keynes

[Roger Merriman]

Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 9:07:40 AM UTC, Axel Reichert wrote:
>
>> My Schwalbe Marathon Supreme
>> 42-622 (nominally, but it measures almost the same as the Barlow Pass)
>> is still alive with 16500 km at the rear. Same bike, same riding style
>> with perhaps 10 percent gravel.
>>
> I'm not surprised. I have a set of Schalke Marathon Plus thrown off for
> being godawfully uncomfortable at about 6000 miles, all tarmac but very
> poor, potholed, chipsealed surfaces -- and showing hardly any wear.
>
> Also, I have a set of Big Apples 60x622 taken off another bike at 8500km
> for no better reason than that it suited the gearbox oil change cycle.
> The Big Apples start out with a merely cosmetic tread to pacify the
> morons who refuse to grasp that a treaded tyre should be the exception
> created by the circumstance, not the norm, at least for tarmac riders. At
> the front, the ultra-thin tread was hardly worn, at the back the tread
> was just worn off so that the tyre was a slick.

The tread probably does help on the light off-roading I do commuting,
fairly poor in mud, but then unless it’s a proper mud tires that’s a given.

>
> I take it you're aware of the Schwalbe advice that one can ride their
> tyres with anti-puncture bands until you can see the color of the
> anti-puncture band on the rolling surface. After a thorough inspection of
> the Big Apples I took off, which were the first folding model, supposedly
> lighter than the others at the time (the folding sidewall has since been
> made the standard on all the Big Apples), I decided that they were likely
> good, especially if swapped around back to front and front to back, for
> at least another 8500km.

That’s no my experience with either the Marathon plus touring or the Big
Apple both became punctures magnets/so cut up with glass etc that I wasn’t
prepared to use them any more.

In both tends to be between 6/8k (miles) front or rear.

>
> That surprised me. A lot, as on all the tyres I used previously, before I
> got fed up enough to investigate the matter and consequently switched to
> Schwalbe tyres, I was lucky to get a thousand miles per pair and my LBS
> had halfway convinced me I was a tyre- and -transmission wrecker, which
> would be surprising as in motor racing I was known for my gentle touch on
> tyres, gearboxes and women. As soon as I investigated chains as well, and
> switched to KMC's better chains, my chain troubles went away too. It
> wasn't me, it was the cheap trash tyres and chains the LBS fitted.
>

While it’s certainly true cheap and nasty doesn’t seem to last long, mind
you high end Gravel/MTB tires doesn’t either as made for grip rather than
wear!

> Andre Jute
> A little, a very little thought will suffice. -- Maynard Keynes
>
>
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

John Maynard Keynes was the absolute enemy of the left like Kragowski showing that you could grow your portfolio hundreds of percent even in a depression simply by investing in winning new technologies rather than the failing technologies of the last centuries such as attempting to heat your home with wood at any price

[Axel Reichert]

Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> writes:

> The tread probably does help on the light off-roading I do commuting,
> fairly poor in mud, but then unless it’s a proper mud tires that’s a
> given.

I was quite surprised to be able to confirm on my gravel rides what Jan
Heine has frequently written in Bicycle Quarterly: You do not need tread
for gravel, only for snow, sand, mud, wet grass etc.

This insight is a big deal, since it removes the burden of having two
wheel sets "just in case". A buddy of mine will happily swap between
road slicks and treaded tires depending on the expected amount of
gravel. This is simply not necessary (caveat see above).

>> I take it you're aware of the Schwalbe advice that one can ride their
>> tyres with anti-puncture bands until you can see the color of the
>> anti-puncture band on the rolling surface.

Yes, but the (quite fast) Supreme is not the (sluggish) Plus, so I doubt
there will be much to see. Did you mix them up?

Axel

[John B.]

No Tommy, JMK didn't mention investing in new technology. His most
famous work, The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money,
basically says "spend, spend, spend. And president Franklin Roosevelt
with his "New Deal" did just that... dump money into the economy and
it did slowly recover until WW II when really massive amounts of money
flowed into the economy and the great depression was ended.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

further to that point, Time magazine included Keynes among its Most Important People of the Century in 1999. The article stated "his radical idea that governments should spend money they don't have may have saved capitalism." Add that to his ideas of supply-side economics aka "trickle-down" and you have a recipe for the current disaster - income disparities that rival the days of the late 19th century robber barons. What you end up with is clueless fucks like kunich who have convinced themselves that Obama inherited a good economy. BTW - shut the fuck up tommy.

[John B.]

Re income disparity. Well why not?

One bloke gets an idea and gets off his butt and does something and
makes a lot of money while another bloke sits on his arse drawing the
unemployment and makes nothing.

Rather like champion athletes who get to be champions by "busting
their arse", working hard in other words (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 5:07:53 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2022 16:11:35 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

> ...Time magazine included Keynes among its Most Important People of the Century in 1999. The article stated "his radical idea that governments should spend money they don't have may have saved capitalism." Add that to his ideas of supply-side economics aka "trickle-down" and you have a recipe for the current disaster - income disparities that rival the days of the late 19th century robber barons. What you end up with is clueless fucks like kunich who have convinced themselves that Obama inherited a good economy. BTW - shut the fuck up tommy.

>
> Re income disparity. Well why not?
>
> One bloke gets an idea and gets off his butt and does something and
> makes a lot of money while another bloke sits on his arse drawing the
> unemployment and makes nothing.

Why not? For several reasons. For example:

Your characterization of the poor is faulty. Yes, some of them do nothing - but some of the very wealthy do just
as little. Picture the spoiled brats of a man who actually did work hard and make lots of money. I've had very
unpleasant dealings with at least two such an asses. Rude, obnoxious, egotistical despite having accomplished
precisely nothing on their own. As an illustration, one of them yelled at me to get off the #%@! road as he drove
by, speeding in his hopped-up Porsche in a 25 mph zone. And I've known poor people who worked two jobs to stay
afloat, barely.

Another reason to reduce income disparity: As I've mentioned, money is required to run a civilization. Those who
have more income and wealth can afford to pay more of those costs. It makes simple economic sense to tax
the wealthy at a much higher rate than the poor. That tends to reduce income disparity. If done sufficiently, it
greatly reduces that disparity.

Finally, income disparity leads to social problems. The greater the disparity between the wealthy and poor, the
more discontent among the poor. The more discontent, the greater the incidence of crime, the greater the
costs of maintaining social order (as in the U.S., with it's extreme prison expenses) and ultimately the
higher the chance of revolution. Ask Louie XVI how that worked out. Or the czars of Russia.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Well, you are not completely wrong, but the picture of the rich
plutocrats, the descendent of a wealthy family is, well a tiny bit
flawed.

For example, studies have determined that only 21% of all U.S.
millionaires inherited their wealth so (amazingly) most of them made
it on their own. Think of, well say, Elon Musk who seems to come from
a middle income family, father an engineer of some sort, Bill Gates,
upper middle income family started his first "company" while he was
less then 17 years old as he started Traf-O-Data to make traffic
counters based on the Intel 8008 processor when he was 17. Then we
have Mark Zuckerberg who started Facebook at the age of 19, And Larry
Page? Well his father was a professor at a state university.
And finally poor old Warren Buffett with a paltry 102 billion? Oh
well, his father was a congressman, but never the less he worked in
his granddaddy's store and filed his first income tax statement at the
age of 14.

I could obviously go on... and on, but I do believe I've made my
point.

As for income disparity, well yes. But why?

After all, every group that has immigrated to the U.S. in any numbers
has been discriminated against. The Jews, the Irish, The Italians, the
Polish, the French, even the Whites that didn't go the right church
and they all seem to have "worked their arse off" and gotten ahead.

As for the Blacks - or whatever the politically correct term is this
week - well, I mentioned, to Andrew, I think it was, that the
governors of more then 20 cities in the U.S. are Black and they even
snuck a president in. For eight years (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, you have accomplished exactly nothing with your life and you don't think that you're officious in the least to demand other people's money. There is definitely something wrong with you and you can't even see it.

[AMuzi]

It's a recent and (hopefully) temporary social problem in
that black employment participation rates were at or above
the general population until about 1960. There's nothing
inherent here, but more probably logical response to policy
changes.

[Roger Merriman]

Axel Reichert <ma...@axel-reichert.de> wrote:
> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> writes:
>
>> The tread probably does help on the light off-roading I do commuting,
>> fairly poor in mud, but then unless it’s a proper mud tires that’s a
>> given.
>
> I was quite surprised to be able to confirm on my gravel rides what Jan
> Heine has frequently written in Bicycle Quarterly: You do not need tread
> for gravel, only for snow, sand, mud, wet grass etc.

That’s not my experience, doesn’t take much gravel before tread will start
to dig in, and conversely slicks to start drifting.

And since your GravelKings/G-ones are so close to a slick anyway not really
a huge advantage in going the slick route.

>
> This insight is a big deal, since it removes the burden of having two
> wheel sets "just in case". A buddy of mine will happily swap between
> road slicks and treaded tires depending on the expected amount of
> gravel. This is simply not necessary (caveat see above).
>
>>> I take it you're aware of the Schwalbe advice that one can ride their
>>> tyres with anti-puncture bands until you can see the color of the
>>> anti-puncture band on the rolling surface.
>
> Yes, but the (quite fast) Supreme is not the (sluggish) Plus, so I doubt
> there will be much to see. Did you mix them up?

Not my comments
>
> Axel
>
Roger Merriman

[Sir Ridesalot]

I've been on a road that had fresh gravel on it and the gravel was so deep and loose that I don't think that even a fat bike could have been ridden on it with full control. That gravel itself was moving under my 2.5" knobby MTB tires.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

That may be so, but it says nothing of the tremendously larger
populations of lazy kids of very prosperous families. The two dudes I
had in mind are probably not millionaires; but neither one ever had a
need to really work. The Porsche guy was in his late 30s when he blasted
by me, but still living in his parents' huge home.

> Think of, well say, Elon Musk who seems to come from
> a middle income family, father an engineer of some sort, Bill Gates,
> upper middle income family started his first "company" while he was
> less then 17 years old as he started Traf-O-Data to make traffic
> counters based on the Intel 8008 processor when he was 17. Then we
> have Mark Zuckerberg who started Facebook at the age of 19, And Larry
> Page? Well his father was a professor at a state university.
> And finally poor old Warren Buffett with a paltry 102 billion? Oh
> well, his father was a congressman, but never the less he worked in
> his granddaddy's store and filed his first income tax statement at the
> age of 14.
>
> I could obviously go on... and on, but I do believe I've made my
> point.

You've given some anecdotes. But I think it's obvious that family money
is very advantageous to those who do choose to start their own
businesses, whether it's a software company or a barber shop. But most
of those starting barber shops, concrete driveway companies or the like
don't have a reservoir of parental money to fall back on.

Another very wealthy guy I know inherited a small but very prosperous
business from his father. When his kids graduated college, he opened a
cute little local restaurant that was "run" by the kids. AFAICT, the
objective was just to give his kids something to do. It failed after a
couple years.

I think it's obvious that children of wealthier families have an easier
time accumulating wealth. And that's without even accounting for the
huge tax advantages when stocks are passed on through inheritance.

> As for income disparity, well yes. But why?
>
> After all, every group that has immigrated to the U.S. in any numbers
> has been discriminated against. The Jews, the Irish, The Italians, the
> Polish, the French, even the Whites that didn't go the right church
> and they all seem to have "worked their arse off" and gotten ahead.
>
> As for the Blacks - or whatever the politically correct term is this
> week - well, I mentioned, to Andrew, I think it was, that the
> governors of more then 20 cities in the U.S. are Black and they even
> snuck a president in. For eight years (:-)

I think blacks do have a special problem, in that the Italians, Jews,
Irish, Poles etc. had the option of "passing" - changing their name to
become "more American." That's a lot harder with skin color. But at
least until recently, I think most of those less "English" folks did
suffer discrimination.

I knew of one brilliant man with a very ethnic name in upper management
at a prominent local company. He claimed he would have been vice
president if he had a more "normal" name; and at his funeral, other
upper executives confidentially confirmed that.

I think that situation has improved somewhat, and I think that there are
problems within the cultures of certain ethnic groups that somehow need
to be addressed and improved. But data I've seen indicates that even
those black males who originate from upper class families have a harder
time succeeding in life. I've seen blatant discrimination against black
engineers in the workplace. This is a problem that's a long way from
being solved.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Buncha pointy heads discriminating by ethnicity in central
Ohio? Weird. As is written here often, 'You should move out
of that hellhole'. The rest of my country isn't like that at
all.

[Frank Krygowski]

Hah. Your naivete surprises me.

As I've pointed out, I lived and worked in the American deep south for
many years. Anyone who wasn't a "good old boy" was often treated with at
least some suspicion, and some excellent black guys I knew were
blatantly abused, as in cracks and jibes when they walked into a room.
Not everyone was that backward, but plenty were, including our two next
door neighbors, who talked openly about "keeping them niggers in their
place."

I did get out of that hellhole. It is far better up here. But it was up
here that I witnessed mocking of black engineers behind their backs - or
in some cases, _almost_ behind their backs so they'd hear it, but not
clearly enough to file complaints.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Yup I have a few Sandy climbs that are doable in winter where it sticks
together, but come summer and it drys out, it’s a absolute git to clear
without having to either foot down or worse end up walking!

The MTB is better at this stuff, as well size matters!

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Are there such things? Yes, but extreme anomalies IME,
hardly normal or routine incidents.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 11:43:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I think blacks do have a special problem, in that the Italians, Jews,
>Irish, Poles etc. had the option of "passing" - changing their name to
>become "more American." That's a lot harder with skin color. But at
>least until recently, I think most of those less "English" folks did
>suffer discrimination.

Yep. When my parents and similar immigrants arrived from Europe in
the 1950's, almost everyone "Americanized" their names. Mine changed
twice. Once when I entered the US and again when we obtained US
citizenship.

The initial problem was that post WWII Americans barely tolerated
European immigrants. Similarly, the immigrants were seriously worried
about being "denounced", where locals would accuse the immigrants of
something, followed by the police dragging the immigrants away.
Therefore, learning to talk, write, act, eat, think, and dress like an
American was deemed to be very important. As part of the process of
learning to eat like an American, my parents purchased two books on
etiquette (by Amy Vanderbilt and Emily Post). It took a while before
we discovered that Americans did not eat formal dinners. The most
difficult part was teaching my parents to talk without a Polish
accent. Since I was about 6 years old at the time, switching
languages, accents, and dialects was quite easy.

When I went to college, I hung around with some friends. One was
black, one was Chinese, and I was the token Anglo. Behind our backs,
were called "Honky, Chink, and Spade". When we were forming a small
company, we considered using it as the company name. Fortunately,
sanity prevailed a few hours later.

At one point I ended up in Israel and discovered that only the Arabs
had moustaches. I quickly shaved off mine, which was immediately
replaced by a bright red sunburn where the moustache had been located.
Oops.



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

Experiences differ. Which is one of the main points.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

The Irish and Italians had far more gibes thrown at them they are an immensely larger part of the population. If they could simply look the other way so could blacks without people like you telling them they should take offense rather then simply being the cost of a slight difference.

[Tom Kunich]

Obama didn't "inherit" a "good economy" but neither was it a bad one. The Great Recession came from Obama's own hand. You would think that the bookkeeper would have something to say about this but I guess his forte' is calling names rather than making sound comments. Flunky has nothing of any good to say about anything.

When you destroy the economy it is EASY to have large growth numbers bring the economy back to where it was. Trump still had a 2.5% growth and after a 3.5% growth which was a reflex action under Obama, that was pretty good and more importantly, he was rearranging the business atmosphere to put every American in a better position. Flunky could never understand that sort of thing.

[Tom Kunich]

The area I grew up in was largely black. And they were the most responsible and respectable until the Black Panther movement took any respectability of the younger black generation away. Italians, Portuguese, Yugoslavs and much to my surprise, though I have a Croatian name, on that side of the family I am about half Greek. The other side is Irish and Austrian. That anyone in this country should worry about the color of their skin or their racial backgrounds is pretty silly. I should guess that if you had a DNA test you'd be plenty surprised to discover yourself with a large component of Ashkenazi Jew.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 11:43:54 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Well yes, after all money is, today in the U.S., very much the
determining factor in who is SOMEBODY and who is one of the hoi paloi
As the song has it
Yeah, I see you're goin' down the street in your big Cadillac
You got girls in the front, you got girls in the back
Yeah, way in back, you got money in a sack
Both hands on the wheel and your shoulders rared back

>> Think of, well say, Elon Musk who seems to come from
>> a middle income family, father an engineer of some sort, Bill Gates,
>> upper middle income family started his first "company" while he was
>> less then 17 years old as he started Traf-O-Data to make traffic
>> counters based on the Intel 8008 processor when he was 17. Then we
>> have Mark Zuckerberg who started Facebook at the age of 19, And Larry
>> Page? Well his father was a professor at a state university.
>> And finally poor old Warren Buffett with a paltry 102 billion? Oh
>> well, his father was a congressman, but never the less he worked in
>> his granddaddy's store and filed his first income tax statement at the
>> age of 14.
>>
>> I could obviously go on... and on, but I do believe I've made my
>> point.
>
>You've given some anecdotes. But I think it's obvious that family money
>is very advantageous to those who do choose to start their own
>businesses, whether it's a software company or a barber shop. But most
>of those starting barber shops, concrete driveway companies or the like
>don't have a reservoir of parental money to fall back on.
>

As I said, some 21% of the very wealthy started with family money as
opposed to the top runnier's in the pack I listed above, who didn't.

Well a black man got elected president, and as I said, some 20 cities
have a Black mayor and then we have Black Generals and Black Secretary
of this and that... and Hey! Don't forget Oprah who was born to a teen
age unmarried mother... in Kosciusko, Mississippi (population 7,000)
Can you conceive a worse start?

And now worth a "whole bunch: of money.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Can't argue it but not my experience working in Florida nor
in Texas. YMMV.

[Andre Jute]

> Roger Merman
>>
The par about the "Schwalbe advice" is mine, but, dear Roger, I was hoping you'd be a gentleman and step up to answer Axel, as I'm not so sure what he means by "Did you mix them up?"
>
Here are some possible answers, depending on what Axel meant:
1. No, I didn't make a typo. I wrote about the Big Apple and the Marathon Plus because those are the tyres I have which are relevant to this discussion.
>
2. No, I didn't swap the hardly worn front tyre to the rear of the bike, and the slightly worn back tyre to the rear of the bike. I just fitted new tyres all round.
>
3. No, I didn't run a mixed set of Big Apple and Marathon Plus because I can't see any advantage and obvious disadvantages are serious, shading into dangerous. That's in general, on any bike that will take both tyres.
>
4. No, I didn't run a mixed set of Big Apple and Marathon Plus, specifically because my bike is most competently designed from the ground up around the Big Apples. Marathon Plus and other high-pressure tyres have no place on the Kranich from Utopia. In particular, the Plus mixed with the Big Apple would turn the high-speed understeer of my bike, a safety feature, into nervous oversteer and force me to slow down so as not to go down, and that's without even taking into account the unsettling inherent nature of the rock-hard Plus on broken surfaces. And that's the best scenario: an equally likely possibility is that mixing those tyres would cause "neutral" handling, which in plain English is lethally unpredictable over- and under-steer in the same package.
>
If you intended some other parameter, Axel, please let me know and I'll try to answer.
>
Andre Jute
For such a settled practical design, a theoretical description of the operation of a bicycle is a vast, arid desert.

[John B.]

Strange isn't it?
I lived and worked in the deep south for quite a number of years and
to be honest I never encountered any of the suspicions that you
encountered. In fact the only comment I ever heard was in Bainbridge
Georgia when a guy in a store asked me to repeat something as he
wanted to hear my accent. The girls thought my accent "cute".And, I
might add I lived and associated with what one might call "native"
people. The rooming house I lived in was owned by two "old Maid"
sisters who actually owned two places and as they were proper, church
going ladies it was men in one house and women in the other and never
the twain shall meet. They also owned a tiny restaurant for their
tenants and they would always hold some of the goodies, like grits and
field peas, back if I was late to meals. And Lord help me I hate grits
and field peas (:-)

That, by the way includes, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana and
Texas... and my collage roommate was from N. Carolina.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2022 11:42:54 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

But that wasn't solely a practice only after WW II. My father's
youngest sister married a chap named Lucian LeBlanc. Of French
Canadian decent and her mother, my grandmother, didn't talk to her for
5 years.

On the other hand there was a Jewish girl in my high school class
who's family had been in the U.S. for generations and who wasn't
allowed to date any of the "Christian" boys.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Gee Tommy your "Great Recession" is generally blamed on the collapse
of the sub-prime mortgage market, Starting in California.

Do you mean the Obama, the President of the U.,S. was out there
flogging mortgages in California with his "own hand"?

>When you destroy the economy it is EASY to have large growth numbers bring the economy back to where it was. Trump still had a 2.5% growth and after a 3.5% growth which was a reflex action under Obama, that was pretty good and more importantly, he was rearranging the business atmosphere to put every American in a better position. Flunky could never understand that sort of thing.

Really? When the first "great recession" started in October 1929 and
by 1933 nearly a quarter of the U.S. population was without work. From
his inauguration in 1933 Roosevelt started dumping money into the
economy, to create more jobs and the depression was finally ended by
WW II which, for the U.S. started in 1941.

So it may be "EASY to bring the economy back", but it took more then
10 years to do it.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 4:04:34 PM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Axel Reichert <ma...@axel-reichert.de> wrote:
>>> Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> I take it you're aware of the Schwalbe advice that one can ride their
>>>>> tyres with anti-puncture bands until you can see the color of the
>>>>> anti-puncture band on the rolling surface.
>>>
>>> Yes, but the (quite fast) Supreme is not the (sluggish) Plus, so I doubt
>>> there will be much to see. Did you mix them up?
>>
>> Not my comments
>>>
>>> Axel
>>>
>> Roger Merman
>>>
> The par about the "Schwalbe advice" is mine, but, dear Roger, I was
> hoping you'd be a gentleman and step up to answer Axel, as I'm not so
> sure what he means by "Did you mix them up?"

That was essentially why I declined!

>>
> Here are some possible answers, depending on what Axel meant:
> 1. No, I didn't make a typo. I wrote about the Big Apple and the Marathon
> Plus because those are the tyres I have which are relevant to this discussion.
>>
> 2. No, I didn't swap the hardly worn front tyre to the rear of the bike,
> and the slightly worn back tyre to the rear of the bike. I just fitted new tyres all round.
>>
> 3. No, I didn't run a mixed set of Big Apple and Marathon Plus because I
> can't see any advantage and obvious disadvantages are serious, shading
> into dangerous. That's in general, on any bike that will take both tyres.

I didn’t swap from Marathon plus touring and the big Apples in one go but
on the rear first for a while, can’t front was less noticeable (comfort)
plus the lack of weight in the tire meant it felt more sprightly)

But grip was broadly the same, for my commute routes on some sections the
Marathon Plus Touring as it has tread is mildly better in mud, but as it’s
close spaced it cogs so it’s only a mild improvement.

On road grip seems to be the same, the Big Apples feel so much better to
ride, but both at 2inch or thereabouts have enough grip to grip on wet
cobbles/metal work and other things that will be slippery on say a pure
road bike.

>>
> 4. No, I didn't run a mixed set of Big Apple and Marathon Plus,
> specifically because my bike is most competently designed from the ground
> up around the Big Apples. Marathon Plus and other high-pressure tyres
> have no place on the Kranich from Utopia. In particular, the Plus mixed
> with the Big Apple would turn the high-speed understeer of my bike, a
> safety feature, into nervous oversteer and force me to slow down so as
> not to go down, and that's without even taking into account the
> unsettling inherent nature of the rock-hard Plus on broken surfaces. And
> that's the best scenario: an equally likely possibility is that mixing
> those tyres would cause "neutral" handling, which in plain English is
> lethally unpredictable over- and under-steer in the same package.
>>
> If you intended some other parameter, Axel, please let me know and I'll try to answer.
>>
> Andre Jute
> For such a settled practical design, a theoretical description of the
> operation of a bicycle is a vast, arid desert.
>

Roger Merriman

[Axel Reichert]

Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> writes:

> The par about the "Schwalbe advice" is mine, but, dear Roger, I was
> hoping you'd be a gentleman and step up to answer Axel, as I'm not so
> sure what he means by "Did you mix them up?"

Sorry for the confusion. (-:

By "mix them up" I meant the difference between a Marathon Supreme and a
Marathon Plus. The "Plus" version is the one advertised as "Unplattbar"
(= "unflatable"), because the protection layers are thick enough to
happily absorb a drawing pin. The Supreme's protection layer is much
thinner (and not coloured, AFAIK), as are the side walls, and thus is
rolls much better. So I will ride it not until the colour comes through,
but rather until the casing is visible or the frequency of flats rises
considerably, whichever comes first.

Best regards

Axel

[Roger Merriman]

I’d hang on for a while as they are discontinuing by looks of things! As
the Big Apples or Super Moto fill essentially the same role by looks of
things.

Roger Merriman.

[Tom Kunich]

Taking my Trek Alpha over Palomares yesterday showed me something quite surprising. That road has a lot of placed on it with cuts in the asphalt from cars or trucks pulling out of steep driveways and cutting grooves in the roadway. There are also some potholes. Riding my fairly soft 28mm tires I remained seated over the entire road including the 30 mph descent. Now the majority of suspension on a road bike is from the tires with a very little from the fork and seatpost, but I have always found it necessary to watch and avoid the rough patches. Yesterday I did not even bother. At no point was there even a wiggle in my handling. Thinking about my fall over, I realized that what happened was that in a place where my heart rate was getting a little high, I dropped down into low gear. This 32 tooth cog is so slow that you have to swerve back and forth to maintain your balance and since there was some traffic approaching at that time I had pulled over to the right side of the road. After they passed I didn't return to a safe distance from the pavement edge and road off of the pavement and fell over against the cliff face more or less upright. But my foot was sort of caught under the chainring and I had to more or less lay down to release the pedal and then I was in a position that the bike was in my way and made it difficult to stand up. Though obviously I finally succeeded. And I stayed either in the middle of my lane or watched very carefully if traffic forced me over to the edge of the road. Staying out of the super-low gear made things a bit easier though it did send my heart rate up. But soon enough I was at the top of the hard climb and the rest of the way was only 6% or so except the 9% climb up past the Monastery.

As in the rest of the hills around the bay now, all open land has been sold off and houses installed. Almost ALL of the farms are gone and the "larger" tracts have meadows and keep horses. These horses are badly kept and it looks like they are almost never ridden they are gaunt and thin. I can only imagine what real horse people think of these amateurs that keep horses because it apparently represents their entry into the horsy set.

To return to the subject - I suppose that fat road tires will become de rigor now. You can obtain about the same ride from 25 mm tubeless tires and on good rims they hold air forever. So that is also an option.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Part of your 21%. Each of Fred's five kids got about $35 million of the company.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/business/yourmoney/whats-he-really-worth.html

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 4:57:14 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Obama didn't "inherit" a "good economy" but neither was it a bad one. The Great Recession came from Obama's own hand. You would think that the bookkeeper would have something to say about this but I guess his forte' is calling names rather than making sound comments. Flunky has nothing of any good to say about anything.
>

Wow. You are stupid Tommy.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp
"The term Great Recession applies to both the U.S. recession, officially lasting from December 2007 to June 2009, and the ensuing global recession in 2009. The economic slump began when the U.S. housing market went from boom to bust, and large amounts of mortgage-backed securities (MBS's) and derivatives lost significant value."

Barack Obama was inaugurated as President on January 20, 2009. So he was president for the final 5 months of the Great Recession. Bush 2 was president during the first 14 months. Bush 2 and his Republican Congress allowed the financial institutions to get by with no rules at all and issue risky loans for fast profits.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:07:41 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> The area I grew up in was largely black. And they were the most responsible and respectable until the Black Panther movement took any respectability of the younger black generation away. Italians, Portuguese, Yugoslavs and much to my surprise, though I have a Croatian name, on that side of the family I am about half Greek. The other side is Irish and Austrian. That anyone in this country should worry about the color of their skin or their racial backgrounds is pretty silly. I should guess that if you had a DNA test you'd be plenty surprised to discover yourself with a large component of Ashkenazi Jew.

Tommy boy quote: "That anyone in this country should worry about the color of their skin or their racial backgrounds is pretty silly."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/ahmaud-arberys-family-slams-federal-prosecutors-deal-men/story?id=82577871
I guess that Ahmaud Arbery was pretty silly. Wasn't he Tommy boy?

[Andre Jute]

+1. I don't have any experience on Supremes but I belong to another, very knowledgeable forum where the Supreme is the most popular tyre among the serious tourers, as the best all-round balanced tyre, and the Plus a shoo-in for the Most Hated (Good) Tyre crown. But I think the withdrawal of the Supremes is a done deal, according to what I hear there. If it is the Big Apples being discontinued, excuse me while I go lay in enough stock to see me out. "I've become accustomed to the comfort of my seat." -- AJ
>

[AMuzi]

Criminals and victims come in every shade:

https://news.yahoo.com/ucla-student-texted-bad-vibe-113020363.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=tw

The assailants in the Aubrey case all got life, the two
actual murderers with no parole. And promptly, too. What
more do you want?

[Frank Krygowski]

I would want it to never happen again, at the very least.

- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

My purpose for bringing up the Ahmaud Arbery case was a very easy rebuttal of Tommy boy's comments that anyone in the USA would worry about their skin color or race is silly. Arbery was hunted down and murdered because he was black. Silly? Yes justice was served. If you can call it justice. Arbery will remain dead. Putting the perpetrators in prison does not bring him back to life. I think of justice as making things even or neutral again. There is no justice. There is retribution.

[John B.]

I'm not disagreeing with you but it is a bit more then just skin
color, There had been several robberies in the area and some guns
stolen and Arbery apparently ran away and hid in a partially completed
building when initially accosted. Not that justifies shooting someone
but it does indicate that it was, perhaps, a bit more then just a
White man shooting a Black man.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

No one would disagree with you on that goal. How do we get
there?

Oh, here's a thought! How about infesting our neighborhoods
with violent felons? That oughta help:

https://cwbchicago.com/2022/01/chief-judge-claims-no-accused-murderers-have-been-released-on-electronic-monitoring-since-october-hes-wrong-according-court-records.html

[AMuzi]

On 2/1/2022 12:01 AM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 7:25:46 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/31/2022 5:40 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:07:41 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> The area I grew up in was largely black. And they were the most responsible and respectable until the Black Panther movement took any respectability of the younger black generation away. Italians, Portuguese, Yugoslavs and much to my surprise, though I have a Croatian name, on that side of the family I am about half Greek. The other side is Irish and Austrian. That anyone in this country should worry about the color of their skin or their racial backgrounds is pretty silly. I should guess that if you had a DNA test you'd be plenty surprised to discover yourself with a large component of Ashkenazi Jew.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tommy boy quote: "That anyone in this country should worry about the color of their skin or their racial backgrounds is pretty silly."
>>> https://abcnews.go.com/US/ahmaud-arberys-family-slams-federal-prosecutors-deal-men/story?id=82577871
>>> I guess that Ahmaud Arbery was pretty silly. Wasn't he Tommy boy?
>>>
>> Criminals and victims come in every shade:
>>
>> https://news.yahoo.com/ucla-student-texted-bad-vibe-113020363.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=tw
>>
>> The assailants in the Aubrey case all got life, the two
>> actual murderers with no parole. And promptly, too. What
>> more do you want?

> My purpose for bringing up the Ahmaud Arbery case was a very easy rebuttal of Tommy boy's comments that anyone in the USA would worry about their skin color or race is silly. Arbery was hunted down and murdered because he was black. Silly? Yes justice was served. If you can call it justice. Arbery will remain dead. Putting the perpetrators in prison does not bring him back to life. I think of justice as making things even or neutral again. There is no justice. There is retribution.
>

and yet

https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-asian-woman-punched-face-man-color-new-yorks-chinatown-1596340

https://news.yahoo.com/elderly-asian-woman-sucker-punched-173706194.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/42abb7fd-87e0-408d-96b4-31585a982425/asian-woman-punched-in-the-face-while-walking-along-howard-county-path/vi-BB1eSllB

https://www.foxla.com/news/woman-of-asian-descent-punched-called-racial-slur-in-culver-city

Criminal sand victims come in every shade.

[Tom Kunich]

Russell, as someone that is educated in economics what is your honest opinion of Frank's preferred socialism where those who work for their money should have the advantage of keeping at least some of it?

[Tom Kunich]

If there's one thing that we seem to be able to count on from you it is being woke: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/218463.pdf
Blacks compose only 7% of the population but commit 52.9% of ALL murders in the US and you point out a case where a couple of white men kill a black and you don't know a single thing about the case.

As for actual murder rates - the US has 5 murders per 100,000. Brazil is 230 per 100,000. Parts of Great Britain are 28 per 100,000.

I guess we can put your ignorance of anything and everything down to your so-call college education which makes you an authority on nothing.

[Tom Kunich]

Actually your purpose was to demonstrate an ignorance of any and every fact on the face of this Earth. To bad, like Frank overtures to end these sorts of discussions always fall on deaf ears.

[Tom Kunich]

Can you tell me why you feel the need to distort the truth? A supermajority of Democrats was elected to Congress in 2006 and immediately began spending tax money that didn't exist. There was nothing that Bush could do except veto these and be overruled. But you can pretend otherwise.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:54:19 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 4:57:14 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Obama didn't "inherit" a "good economy" but neither was it a bad one. The Great Recession came from Obama's own hand. You would think that the bookkeeper would have something to say about this but I guess his forte' is calling names rather than making sound comments. Flunky has nothing of any good to say about anything.
> > >
> > Wow. You are stupid Tommy.
> > https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp
> > "The term Great Recession applies to both the U.S. recession, officially lasting from December 2007 to June 2009, and the ensuing global recession in 2009. The economic slump began when the U.S. housing market went from boom to bust, and large amounts of mortgage-backed securities (MBS's) and derivatives lost significant value."
> >
> > Barack Obama was inaugurated as President on January 20, 2009. So he was president for the final 5 months of the Great Recession. Bush 2 was president during the first 14 months. Bush 2 and his Republican Congress allowed the financial institutions to get by with no rules at all and issue risky loans for fast profits.
> >
> When you destroy the economy it is EASY to have large growth numbers bring the economy back to where it was.
> Trump still had a 2.5% growth and after a 3.5% growth which was a reflex action under Obama, that was pretty
> good and more importantly, he was rearranging the business atmosphere to put every American in a better position.
> Flunky could never understand that sort of thing.

I understand it way better than someone who still thinks obama created the great recession.

> Can you tell me why you feel the need to distort the truth? A supermajority of Democrats was elected to
> Congress in 2006 and immediately began spending tax money that didn't exist. There was nothing that
> Bush could do except veto these and be overruled. But you can pretend otherwise.

Fer fucks sake sparky - Where do you get this bullshit? the democrats did _not_ have a super majorities as a result of the 2006 election. The 110th congress was seated january 4 2007. The senate was 49D/49R/2I. The house was 232D/202R.

How could someone so fucking stupid as you have managed to live this long?

[Tom Kunich]

If you're so smart why do you feel the need to bullshit? The "independents" were anything but. One was Joe Lieberman, a lifelong Democrat and the other was Bernie Sanders who always voted Democrat. So there was never a tie breaker that the VP could turn in favor of the Republicans. Combined with a particularly large rash of RINOs, Bush got nothing through Congress and the Nation Debt rose by a Trillion and a quarter dollars.

Tell us again of how you went to University of Colorado at Boulder. What did they teach your there? How to suck dick?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/1/2022 8:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
>>> The assailants in the Aubrey case all got life, the two
>>> actual murderers with no parole. And promptly, too. What
>>> more do you want?
>>
>> I would want it to never happen again, at the very least.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
> No one would disagree with you on that goal. How do we get there?

One step would be to cease the claims that there is no problem.

> Oh, here's a thought! How about infesting our neighborhoods with violent
> felons? That oughta help:
>
> https://cwbchicago.com/2022/01/chief-judge-claims-no-accused-murderers-have-been-released-on-electronic-monitoring-since-october-hes-wrong-according-court-records.html

How is that relevant to this discussion?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't recall anyone here claiming the discrimination is _only_ against
people with dark skin.

Tom's statement above was "That anyone in this country should worry

about the color of their skin or their racial backgrounds is pretty silly."

By your citation of anti-Asian crimes, I assume you now disagree with
Tom - despite your arguing against those who argue against Tom.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/1/2022 10:46 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> As for actual murder rates - the US has 5 murders per 100,000. Brazil is 230 per 100,000. Parts of Great Britain are 28 per 100,000.
>

Where?

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/1/2022 11:11 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Fer fucks sake sparky - Where do you get this bullshit? the democrats did _not_ have a super majorities as a result of the 2006 election. The 110th congress was seated january 4 2007. The senate was 49D/49R/2I. The house was 232D/202R.
>
> How could someone so fucking stupid as you have managed to live this long?

Tom's dirty secret is he's been kept alive only by the socialist
policies of the People's Republic of California. ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

The good people of Georgia, not least of which the jury,
promptly and apparently correctly saved three people from a
life of recidivism. Good example IMHO. Would that such were
more common.

[AMuzi]

>>> silly. Arbery was hunted down and murdered because he
>>> was black. Silly? Yes justice was served. If you
>>> can call it justice. Arbery will remain dead. Putting

>>> the perpetrators in prison does not bring him back to

>>> life. I think of justice as making things even or
>>> neutral again. There is no justice. There is retribution.

>>>
>>
>> and yet
>>
>> https://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-asian-woman-punched-face-man-color-new-yorks-chinatown-1596340
>>
>>
>> https://news.yahoo.com/elderly-asian-woman-sucker-punched-173706194.html
>>
>>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/42abb7fd-87e0-408d-96b4-31585a982425/asian-woman-punched-in-the-face-while-walking-along-howard-county-path/vi-BB1eSllB
>>
>>
>> https://www.foxla.com/news/woman-of-asian-descent-punched-called-racial-slur-in-culver-city
>>
>>
>> Criminal sand victims come in every shade.
>
> I don't recall anyone here claiming the discrimination is
> _only_ against people with dark skin.
>
> Tom's statement above was "That anyone in this country
> should worry about the color of their skin or their racial
> backgrounds is pretty silly."
>
> By your citation of anti-Asian crimes, I assume you now
> disagree with Tom - despite your arguing against those who
> argue against Tom.
>
>

And we very much agree that the various meanings of
'justice' cannot be served in any real sense. The best we
can offer is to remove criminals before the next victim
which is a hard sell - c.f. Bastiat's 'Seen and Unseen'.

[AMuzi]

I'm not familiar with regional differences in UK so I can't
comment but Brasil is an especially violent country:

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Brazil/United-Kingdom/Crime/Violent-crime

(I changed the settings in your link but I could not get it
to display Brasil/USA)

[Sir Ridesalot]

What the heck does all of this have to do with bicycle tire width? Yet another thread hijacked.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

I sold some tubulars early today to a man who said, 'Just
repeat my order, same address, same card'.

I called him back to tell him whatever he's doing, keep
doing that! Last order was in autumn 2010, card since
expired. Damn, I can't get through a year on less than 3 tires.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I like those pair and a spare tubulars you sell.

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

There you go again proving me wrong - the Turks and Cacoes, Cayman Island, Montserrat, Anguilla, the British Virgin Islands and Bermuda are all part of the United Kingdom. And the murder rates there are like all of the rest of the Caribbean area. But pretend that it ain't so.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank, your dirty little secret is that as a communist you love to make claims that you can't back up just like all the rest of your leftist clan.

[Tom Kunich]

Most of the world has much higher rates of murder than the US has France is an exception inasmuch as most of the others with lower murder rates are not mixed races. Another exception is China who does NOT report their murder rates but only numbers to make their country appear to be safe.

[Frank Krygowski]

At least I don't live in a Socialist state! We now know why you won't
move out of that hellhole. :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Ah but I read just yesterday that:
"California moves to dismantle US’s largest death row"

"The goal is to turn a section of San Quentin State Prison into a
‘positive, healing environment’, California officials say."

Read that second sentence and think about that for a while.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

From Britannica - you know, the encyclopedia company?

https://www.britannica.com/story/whats-the-difference-between-great-britain-and-the-united-kingdom

"Great Britain, therefore, is a geographic term referring to the island
also known simply as Britain. It’s also a political term for the part of
the United Kingdom made up of England, Scotland, and Wales (including
the outlying islands that they administer, such as the Isle of Wight).
United Kingdom, on the other hand, is purely a political term: it’s the
independent country that encompasses all of Great Britain and the region
now called Northern Ireland."

No mention of Bermuda, Montserrat, etc.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

"Great Britain is an island in the North Atlantic Ocean off the
northwest coast of continental Europe. With an area of 209,331 km2
(80,823 sq mi), it is the largest of the British Isles, the largest
European island, and the ninth-largest island in the world." No mention
of Cayman Island or British Virgin Islands.

Back to Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/place/United-Kingdom

"United Kingdom, island country located off the northwestern coast of
mainland Europe. The United Kingdom comprises the whole of the island of
Great Britain—which contains England, Wales, and Scotland—as well as the
northern portion of the island of Ireland."

They go on to mention the Isles of Scilly and the Isle of Wight, but no
mention of Cacoes or Anguilla.

Tom, as with COVID, you _really_ need to contact the various authorities
and correct all their mistakes. Hey, maybe Queen Elizabeth II would like
to speak with you! She may be among those still confused!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Of course, and Chinese, for example, habitually refer to Caucasians as
"Gweilo", which literally means a ghost, or maybe devil, person and is
not a polite term at all. The Japanese call Caucasians "Gaijin" which
while literally means an "outside person" again is not a complement.
The Thais refers to Caucasian as "Farang" which while it undoubtedly
came from the "farangi" which I think is a Persian word, as used is
hardly complementary. A "Mia Farang" (Mia, a less then polite term for
wife) for example is used to describe a prostitute.

As far as I know all insular groups of humans deride outsiders. Well
within living memory there have bin "Spics", "Wops", "Kiks",
"Polocks", "Canuks", "Nigers", "Wetbacks" undoubtedly a host of
others, and wile it is, of course, now socially improper to use such
terms... but does anyone think that they have been forgotten?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Tommy, the list I see has the U.S. is 123 out of 195 locations, so 122
have a lower rate and 71 have a higher rate. And, yes, France has a
lower murder rate (1.2/100,000) but so does every other country in
Europe with the exception of The Ukraine'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Now being proved wrong... again...I assume that you will fall back on
insults to "prove your point".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Yes. But its fun to talk about things besides bicycles too. Its the dead of winter here. And nobody is bicycling here.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Frank, you forgot about Gibraltar!!!!!!! That is part of England, Great Britain, United Kingdom, whatever too. There is about 34,000 people on the 2.6 square miles of land that make up Gibraltar. Murder rate there is probably pretty high.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Blacks compose only 7% of the population but commit 52.9% of ALL murders in the US and you point out a case where a couple of white men kill a black and you don't know a single thing about the case.
>

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/improved-race-ethnicity-measures-reveal-united-states-population-much-more-multiracial.html
Go down to Figure 2 on this webpage. The 2020 census, conducted by Trump while he was still in office, so you know its got to be correct, says blacks make up 14.2% of the population. Below is a quote from a little further down the webpage.

"In 2020, the Black or African American alone population (41.1 million) accounted for 12.4% of all people living in the United States, compared with 38.9 million and 12.6% in 2010.
Coupled with the 5.8 million respondents who identified as Black or African American in combination with another race group, such as White or American Indian and Alaska Native, the Black or African American alone or in combination population totaled 46.9 million people (14.2% of the total population) in 2020."

So Tommy, you are wrong by 100%. 7% you versus 14.2% reality. Typical error for you.

Below is a link to the FBI murders for 2019. They don't have any more recent data. Blacks did kill 52.19% of the people in the USA in 2019. Tommy boy is right!!!!!!!! Trump was president then. Whites killed 47.81%. There were a couple other columns for Other and Unknown races of killers. I excluded them to make the calculating easier. But it wouldn't affect the numbers too much. Honest.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

But what is interesting from the above data is the race of the killer and race of the victim. Blacks committed 52% of all murders, but they killed other blacks 89% of the time. So blacks basically kill blacks. They only killed whites 17% of the time. White killers killed white victims 79% of the time. Whites kill whites. I am somewhat shocked how segregated the killing in the USA is. Blacks kill blacks. Whites kill whites. Very little mixing up killers and victims with regard to race. Very segregated. I didn't realize killers were so specific in who they killed. I thought it was much more of a free for all with killing. Kill kill kill. But no. Blacks kill blacks. Whites kill whites.

The facts seem to put a big lie to the decades old Republican scare tactic of crime running rampant and suburban families being murdered by black gangs.

> As for actual murder rates - the US has 5 murders per 100,000. Brazil is 230 per 100,000. Parts of Great Britain are 28 per 100,000.

I believe Frank and John already showed you are lying on this so I won't bother to list many links showing the actual murder rates around the world. The USA is pretty high up on the list of most violent, murdering list. Or low on the list depending on how you sort things. Brazil is 2704 murders per 100 thousand. Not 230 as you claim. 839% wrong. Typical Tommy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[John B.]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2022 22:23:01 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Blacks compose only 7% of the population but commit 52.9% of ALL murders in the US and you point out a case where a couple of white men kill a black and you don't know a single thing about the case.
>>
>
>https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/improved-race-ethnicity-measures-reveal-united-states-population-much-more-multiracial.html
>Go down to Figure 2 on this webpage. The 2020 census, conducted by Trump while he was still in office, so you know its got to be correct, says blacks make up 14.2% of the population. Below is a quote from a little further down the webpage.
>
>"In 2020, the Black or African American alone population (41.1 million) accounted for 12.4% of all people living in the United States, compared with 38.9 million and 12.6% in 2010.
>Coupled with the 5.8 million respondents who identified as Black or African American in combination with another race group, such as White or American Indian and Alaska Native, the Black or African American alone or in combination population totaled 46.9 million people (14.2% of the total population) in 2020."
>
>So Tommy, you are wrong by 100%. 7% you versus 14.2% reality. Typical error for you.
>
>Below is a link to the FBI murders for 2019. They don't have any more recent data. Blacks did kill 52.19% of the people in the USA in 2019. Tommy boy is right!!!!!!!! Trump was president then. Whites killed 47.81%. There were a couple other columns for Other and Unknown races of killers. I excluded them to make the calculating easier. But it wouldn't affect the numbers too much. Honest.
>https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
>
>But what is interesting from the above data is the race of the killer and race of the victim. Blacks committed 52% of all murders, but they killed other blacks 89% of the time. So blacks basically kill blacks. They only killed whites 17% of the time. White killers killed white victims 79% of the time. Whites kill whites. I am somewhat shocked how segregated the killing in the USA is. Blacks kill blacks. Whites kill whites. Very little mixing up killers and victims with regard to race. Very segregated. I didn't realize killers were so specific in who they killed. I thought it was much more of a free for all with killing. Kill kill kill. But no. Blacks kill blacks. Whites kill whites.
>

Actually that report is not 100% accurate as the foot note states:
"NOTE: This table is based on incidents where some information about
the offender is known by law enforcement; therefore, when the offender
age, sex, race, and ethnicity are all reported as unknown, these data
are excluded from the table."

However it is certainly inductive of what is going on and it would
seem to make the "Black Lives Matter" argument seem totally
ridiculous since, as you say, more then 90% of the Blacks murdered are
killed by other Blacks.

>The facts seem to put a big lie to the decades old Republican scare tactic of crime running rampant and suburban families being murdered by black gangs.
>
>> As for actual murder rates - the US has 5 murders per 100,000. Brazil is 230 per 100,000. Parts of Great Britain are 28 per 100,000.
>

Not specifically murders but the U.S. does have more people in jail
than any other country in the world, in fact in sheer numbers it seems
to be somewhat larger then the Russia Gulag - 1940 - 1.5 million. U.S.
prisons, 2020 - ~2.2 million.

And, I read
https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/the-economic-costs-of-the-u-s-criminal-justice-system/
"The next largest share of this expense—$88.5 billion—is the cost of
operating the nation’s prisons, jails, and parole and probation
systems."

Good Lord! That is something like $617.58 for every tax payer in the
U.S.

>I believe Frank and John already showed you are lying on this so I won't bother to list many links showing the actual murder rates around the world. The USA is pretty high up on the list of most violent, murdering list. Or low on the list depending on how you sort things. Brazil is 2704 murders per 100 thousand. Not 230 as you claim. 839% wrong. Typical Tommy.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


>
>
>>
>> I guess we can put your ignorance of anything and everything down to your so-call college education which makes you an authority on nothing.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Andre Jute]

Oh, well, this was an interesting, useful thread until it was taken over by the RBT Scum hounding Tom Munich, now in their third year of screeching to high heaven about his every typo, and leaving not a mark on him. What a shower of incompetent trolls. All that is new here is a definition of their prissy hubris which includes shameless public viciousness. Yo, scumballs, if you don't know what all the big words mean, ask Tom and he'll explain to you. I'm afraid you've long since exceeded my tolerance for trash with zero humanity. -- AJ

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:59:26 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-wider-tires-are-not-slower/

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:45:39 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 8:11:56 AM UTC-8, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 10:54:19 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 3:35:39 PM UTC-8, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 4:57:14 PM UTC-6, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Obama didn't "inherit" a "good economy" but neither was it a bad one. The Great Recession came from Obama's own hand. You would think that the bookkeeper would have something to say about this but I guess his forte' is calling names rather than making sound comments. Flunky has nothing of any good to say about anything.
> > > > >
> > > > Wow. You are stupid Tommy.
> > > > https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/great-recession.asp
> > > > "The term Great Recession applies to both the U.S. recession, officially lasting from December 2007 to June 2009, and the ensuing global recession in 2009. The economic slump began when the U.S. housing market went from boom to bust, and large amounts of mortgage-backed securities (MBS's) and derivatives lost significant value."
> > > >
> > > > Barack Obama was inaugurated as President on January 20, 2009. So he was president for the final 5 months of the Great Recession. Bush 2 was president during the first 14 months. Bush 2 and his Republican Congress allowed the financial institutions to get by with no rules at all and issue risky loans for fast profits.
> > > >
> > > When you destroy the economy it is EASY to have large growth numbers bring the economy back to where it was.
> > > Trump still had a 2.5% growth and after a 3.5% growth which was a reflex action under Obama, that was pretty
> > > good and more importantly, he was rearranging the business atmosphere to put every American in a better position.
> > > Flunky could never understand that sort of thing.
> > I understand it way better than someone who still thinks obama created the great recession.
> > > Can you tell me why you feel the need to distort the truth? A supermajority of Democrats was elected to
> > > Congress in 2006 and immediately began spending tax money that didn't exist. There was nothing that
> > > Bush could do except veto these and be overruled. But you can pretend otherwise.
> > Fer fucks sake sparky - Where do you get this bullshit? the democrats did _not_ have a super majorities as a result of the 2006 election. The 110th congress was seated january 4 2007. The senate was 49D/49R/2I. The house was 232D/202R.
> >
> > How could someone so fucking stupid as you have managed to live this long?
>
> If you're so smart why do you feel the need to bullshit?

The bullshit line was "A supermajority of Democrats was elected to Congress in 2006", not "The senate was 49D/49R/2I. The house was 232D/202R. "

> The "independents" were anything but.

Attempt at deflection duly noted - The party that the two independents caucused with has nothing to do with your lie "a supermajority of Democrats was elected to Congress in 2006".

> One was Joe Lieberman, a lifelong Democrat and the other was Bernie Sanders who always voted Democrat.
> So there was never a tie breaker that the VP could turn in favor of the Republicans. Combined with a particularly
> large rash of RINOs,

1) none of those claim constitutes a "super majority of Democrats was elected to Congress in 2006"
2) no tie breakers by cheney, huh? No wonder you were a high school dropout. You have no capacity to verify _any_ information. This took me all of 60 seconds to find:
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/TieVotes.htm

> Bush got nothing through Congress

Which of course is _also_ not true. In addition to the tie breaking vote in the link above, The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 was proposed by treasury secretary Paulson and backed by Bush. It passed. BTW - this was part of the TARP program to help get the US out of the great recession - you know the one you said didn't start until Obama took office? Gee, I wonder why GW bush back legislation proposed by his own cabinet to fix a recession that you think didn't occur until _after_ he left office - perhaps because you're a fucking idiot?

> and the Nation Debt rose by a Trillion and a quarter dollars.

Well gee sparky, what would you expect when he backed his own treasury secretary with economic release legislation that spent 700 billion of your hard-earned tax dollars?

>
> Tell us again of how you went to University of Colorado at Boulder.

tommy, tommy, tommy, I never claimed that I went to UC Boulder. Chalk another one up to your poor reading comprehension.

> What did they teach your there? How to suck dick?

I wouldn't know, but since you're so obsessed with homosexuality maybe you should go there and offer a dick-sucking course syllabus?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

LOL - No wonder he keeps wanting to trot out that mask report by the chinese college student from shanghi unuversity. (now watch him write that I claimed I went to shanghi university)

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Says the troll who wrote "A supermajority of Democrats was elected to Congress in 2006"

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Gee skippy, where ya been? Trolling that writers forum with 30K members that you claim to be an administrator for? Or writing another cycling article that will be read by 100s of 1000s of cyclists? Or just living off the socialist teat of Ireland as usual?

On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 2:50:51 AM UTC-5, Andre Jute wrote:
>
> Oh, well, this was an interesting, useful thread until it was taken over by the RBT Scum

Yup, hijacked right here:
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/9wJb5j7tYeA/m/2KCHKJXmAQAJ

> hounding Tom Munich,

intentional irony duly noted

> now in their third year of screeching to high heaven about his every typo, and leaving not a mark on him.

Yeah..."A supermajority of Democrats was elected to Congress in 2006" was a typo. Sure thing, skippy.

> What a shower of incompetent trolls. All that is new here is a definition of their prissy hubris which includes shameless public viciousness.

More intentional irony duly noted - or more likely it's just your typical hypocrisy.

> Yo, scumballs, if you don't know what all the big words mean, ask Tom and he'll explain to you.

He'd have to be able to understand the small ones first, like "lie", "liar".

> I'm afraid you've long since exceeded my tolerance for trash with zero humanity. -- AJ

Then stop posting, scumball, you won't be missed.

[Tom Kunich]

Tell me Frank, what is socialist in California? The highest taxes outside of New York City? Vaccine mandates for Union workers? $15 minimum wages that have closed down many small businesses? Perhaps you can explain what any of that has done for the poor poor proletariat?

[Tom Kunich]

Now this is the sort of thing I expect from you racist asses of the left. You are willing to argue about the numbers in the population but not the overwhelmingly larger numbers of murders. You are willing to tell us that it is perfectly OK for blacks to kill other blacks. It is perfectly OK for you to look the other way when Baltimore, a largely black city with almost entirely black officials has as high a murder rate as El Salvador.

Let me congratulate your racism and making it so plain.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

No, sparky, explain why someone who is so rabidly anti-socialist prefers to live in a state run by tax and spend liberals doesn't move to a conservative state with less crime, low taxes, and trump luvin' majorities in the government where his 12K a month on his investments and could put him in a nicely appointed gated community.

[Tom Kunich]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:50:51 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> Oh, well, this was an interesting, useful thread until it was taken over by the RBT Scum hounding Tom Munich, now in their third year of screeching to high heaven about his every typo, and leaving not a mark on him. What a shower of incompetent trolls. All that is new here is a definition of their prissy hubris which includes shameless public viciousness. Yo, scumballs, if you don't know what all the big words mean, ask Tom and he'll explain to you. I'm afraid you've long since exceeded my tolerance for trash with zero humanity. -- AJ
>
> On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 5:59:26 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
> > https://www.renehersecycles.com/why-wider-tires-are-not-slower/

The numbers of people that identify as being black has been purposely overinflated, partially because it was part of the election fraud and partially because it gave them access to government funds. But the heavily racist left uses it all the time. Joe Biden entered the Senate and immediately became the errand boy for Robert Byrd who was a Green Dragon in the KKK. Lyndon Johnson was made VP to JFK on the orders from Byrd. Johnson made every possible attempt to stop the Civil Rights Act of 1964 but too many Democrats had been elected promising to support it. So Johnson called it throwing the blacks a fish when it passed and they removed all of its claws.

None of these people here would say the things they say here to my face. It is remarkable the bravery they show from distance.

[Tom Kunich]

Masks started being used in the late 1800's. They started being studied for efficacy in the 1918 flu epidemic. There have been studies on and off for over 100 years. None of the competently reviewed studies have EVER found that they prevent any infections from a virus and only minor efficacy from bacterial illnesses. Having worked so long in medical instruments I have a lot of Dr. Friends (mostly surgeons). Most of the people in an operating room do not wear masks for a reason. Doctors Without Borders don't even bother with them.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

Now your response should be to say "DUHH, THAT IS FOR INFLUENZA" since your too stupid to know anything about this.

[Roger Merriman]

Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 1:16:12 PM UTC, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Axel Reichert <ma...@axel-reichert.de> wrote:
>>> Andre Jute <fiul...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> The par about the "Schwalbe advice" is mine, but, dear Roger, I was
>>>> hoping you'd be a gentleman and step up to answer Axel, as I'm not so
>>>> sure what he means by "Did you mix them up?"
>>>
>>> Sorry for the confusion. (-:
>>>
>>> By "mix them up" I meant the difference between a Marathon Supreme and a
>>> Marathon Plus. The "Plus" version is the one advertised as "Unplattbar"
>>> (= "unflatable"), because the protection layers are thick enough to
>>> happily absorb a drawing pin. The Supreme's protection layer is much
>>> thinner (and not coloured, AFAIK), as are the side walls, and thus is
>>> rolls much better. So I will ride it not until the colour comes through,
>>> but rather until the casing is visible or the frequency of flats rises
>>> considerably, whichever comes first.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Axel
>>>
>> I’d hang on for a while as they are discontinuing by looks of things! As
>> the Big Apples or Super Moto fill essentially the same role by looks of
>> things.
>>
>> Roger Merriman.
>>
> +1. I don't have any experience on Supremes but I belong to another, very
> knowledgeable forum where the Supreme is the most popular tyre among the
> serious tourers, as the best all-round balanced tyre, and the Plus a
> shoo-in for the Most Hated (Good) Tyre crown. But I think the withdrawal
> of the Supremes is a done deal, according to what I hear there. If it is
> the Big Apples being discontinued, excuse me while I go lay in enough
> stock to see me out. "I've become accustomed to the comfort of my seat." -- AJ
>>
>

To be fair the comfort of the Big Apples isn’t revolutionary ie having a
supple sidewall is just rare for a touring tyre, the XC MTB tyres on the
commute beastie where just as supple, but they are much less easy to live
with since glass etc will puncture, and will only last 2k or so.

They are also at least double the cost, better on anything loose as well
but realistically I’d be disappointed, to loose the Big Apples probably try
standard marathons or maybe just self sealing tubes in XC MTB tyres but
hopefully they sell well enough anyway!

Though I’m seeing much less choice as the old beastie is a 26in ie new
designs are 650b/700c only.

Roger Merriman.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, no one has ever said that. Except you. So you know its a lie. The known truth, is that crime is local. You read internet stories about someone driving across the country to commit a crime. But that is vastly overshadowed by the 100 local crimes committed by locals. And despite people saying otherwise, the USA today is still and has always been heavily segregated. Maybe less so than it was in the Jim Crow south from 50 years ago. But not much different. Blacks live amongst blacks. Whites live amongst whites. And criminals commit their crimes locally on the people they live amongst.

Part of the solution is to fix the segregation in the USA. We need more dispersion of people. We need everyone living amongst everyone else. Mix everyone up. And thus the need for various state and federal programs that help to get people out of poverty and make a living. And make them able to live other places. Currently in the USA people born into poverty stay in poverty. Segregated poverty. And poverty is a breeding ground for crime.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Q.E.D, - " Authors Jingyi Xiao, Eunice Y. C. Shiu, Huizhi Gao, Jessica Y. Wong, Min W. Fong, Sukhyun Ryu,
Author affiliations: University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong, China "

and
"The conclusions, findings, and opinions expressed by authors contributing to this journal do not necessarily reflect the official position of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, the Public Health Service, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, or the authors' affiliated institutions. "

>
> Now your response should be to say "DUHH, THAT IS FOR INFLUENZA" since your too stupid to know anything about this.

We shouldn't be surprised that a rube who gets sucked in by trump is an easy target for chinese propaganda.

Shut the fuck up tommy

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/2/2022 11:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 4:14:00 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 9:56:17 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tom's dirty secret is he's been kept alive only by the socialist
>>>> policies of the People's Republic of California. ;-)
>>>

>>> At least I don't live in a Socialist state! We now know why you won't
>> move out of that hellhole. :-)
>
> Tell me Frank, what is socialist in California? The highest taxes outside of New York City? Vaccine mandates for Union workers? $15 minimum wages that have closed down many small businesses? Perhaps you can explain what any of that has done for the poor poor proletariat?

You're the one who should answer that, then explain why you choose to
live there despite your constant whining.

My bet is you need Socialism (as you call it) to help you survive. That
explains why you don't move to northern Idaho and live free!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

More of your crawling cowardly comments. You're the one that said that California is socialist. Why can't you come up with examples?

[Tom Kunich]

More of that outstanding courage from a man who protects himself with anonymity and distance. Let me compliment you for your public display of manliness.

[John B.]

You don't understand.

You see "Communist" to Tommy is simply a derogatory term. He doesn't
know what it means, it is just a "dirty word" to use in arguments. And
yes, I've asked him to define, or explain just what a "communist" is a
number of times and to date he hasn't been able to do so.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Oh, pity the poor proletariat!

The state of California pays the unemployed some $51,920 a year
https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Unemployment-Salary-by-State
--
Cheers,

John B.