Oiling Sturmey Archer 3-speeds
Earl Bollinger
I have a old hub, virtually new, with a oil cap on it, and I was wanting to
know what would work.
30wt motor oil?
Thanks
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Mobil One, auto oil, doesn't get thick when cold...about 20 drops.
landotter
Yup, any sort of engine oil is fine. I like the thicker stuff for
diesels, but it matters very litte. Within reason, it's a question of
"how loud do I want my pawls to tick today". Just don't use anything
thin or too high tech.
20 drops is about right for a dry hub. I usually just keep applying it,
if it's a daily rider, till I've got a bit of seepage. If your hub gets
bright sounding clicks after a month or two, that means "I'm thirsty".
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> What type or kind of oil do you put into a Sturmey Archer 3 Speed
> Hub? I have a old hub, virtually new, with a oil cap on it, and I
> was wanting to know whether 30wt motor oil would work.
Yes motor oil is ideal but be aware that the SA hub is not oil tight
so all the excess will leak out. This hub relies on a thin film of
oil remaining on the parts with a meniscus between bearing balls,
planetary gears and the like. To make up for that, it is one of the
few bicycle components that has excellent labyrinth (non contacting)
seals that keep all dirt and water out unless you submerge the hub.
Warning! When riding, do not sprint standing in top gear. These
units will reliably jump out of gear into forward free wheeling under
heavy load in that gear. This has been brushed off as improper
shift-chain adjustment over the years, but that is not true. SA put
their head in the sand on this issue and threw the problem in the
user's lap. It cannot be fixed.
Jobst Brandt
Snortley
>Warning! When riding, do not sprint standing in top gear. These
>units will reliably jump out of gear into forward free wheeling under
>heavy load in that gear.
Funny... I have two bikes with this hub, including one I've
used heavily for 37 years, including years of weekly century rides and
lots of sprints and hillclimbs in top gear, and I've never experience
this problem. Am I doing something wrong? In my experience, as long as
the indicator is adjusted to about 1 mm of play in third, there's no
slip whatsoever.
As for oil, when my last can of original SA oil began to run
out, I did some warm/cold flow tests and found it to be very similar
to 10w30 motor oil, which is what I use now, except in the depths of
winter when I use a 50/50 mix of 5w20 and 5w. Whatever you use,
frequent application of a little is better than larger amounts spaced
farther apart. If you ever use too much, you'll know by the excess
leaking through the ball ring and running down a spoke or two to the
rim. Just wipe it off, which you may have to do repeatedly every
morning for a couple of days, and don't let it get on the braking
surfaces. Adjust the oil amount accordingly if this does happen.
You got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there.
- Yogi Berra
carl...@comcast.net
[snip description of Sturmey Archer jumping out of top gear when rider
stands to sprint]
>SA put
>their head in the sand on this issue and threw the problem in the
>user's lap. It cannot be fixed.
>
>Jobst Brandt
Dear Jobst,
A friend who loves mixed metaphors for their own sake is going to
enjoy that ostrich-style bean-ball.
It's better than drawing a ring in the sand and tossing a hot potato
into it.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Warning! When riding, do not sprint standing in top gear. These
>> units will reliably jump out of gear into forward free wheeling
>> under heavy load in that gear.
> Funny... I have two bikes with this hub, including one I've used
> heavily for 37 years, including years of weekly century rides and
> lots of sprints and hillclimbs in top gear, and I've never
> experience this problem. Am I doing something wrong? In my
> experience, as long as the indicator is adjusted to about 1 mm of
> play in third, there's no slip whatsoever.
It's not funny. It should be obvious that the clutch (driver cross)
has orthogonal faces that bear on floating planet pins. These pins
cant in their bores both because they have clearance and from
elasticity. Under continuous high torque the axle, on which these
components rotate, flexes, so that there is a once-around axial (in
and out) motion that causes disengagement. The only thing that holds
the clutch in full engagement in average use is intermittent zero
load, during which the clutch can fully re-engage from spring load.
On inspection the clutch contact surfaces that drive the pins have a
disengaging wear indentations. The more wear, the greater the
disengaging action. This was a common effect in early auto
transmission that popped out of gear while engine braking down hills
in second gear. If the pressure surface is not slightly reverse
sloped it will pop out. The SA design does not address this problem.
However, a stronger spring improves engagement reliability.
> As for oil, when my last can of original SA oil began to run out, I
> did some warm/cold flow tests and found it to be very similar to
> 10w30 motor oil, which is what I use now, except in the depths of
> winter when I use a 50/50 mix of 5w20 and 5w. Whatever you use,
> frequent application of a little is better than larger amounts
> spaced farther apart. If you ever use too much, you'll know by the
> excess leaking through the ball ring and running down a spoke or two
> to the rim. Just wipe it off, which you may have to do repeatedly
> every morning for a couple of days, and don't let it get on the
> braking surfaces. Adjust the oil amount accordingly if this does
> happen.
That sounds so scientifical, "warm/cold flow tests". Just use motor
oil. What is it you think might not work with ordinary motor oil? Is
it that it comes in quart containers and doesn't say "bicycle" on the
label?
Jobst Brandt
Earl Bollinger
"Earl Bollinger" <earlwbo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bt-dnY7Bh_pA0MHY...@comcast.com...
Thanks to all of you, that is what I thought.
I just wanted to be sure.
I usually do not stand and sprint in the high gear. So I hope I don't find
out about this jumping out of gear problem.
That is something to be aware of for sure. About as bad as a cleat breaking
on you in a power sprint.
Werehatrack
It's not all that common. I put the better part of 10000 miles on one
back in the '60s and '70s, much of that done with a significant amount
of cargo on the bike, and never had it jump out in that manner at all.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
Snortley
In 37 years of very hard riding, this has never happened to me.
Admittedly, on a few occasions I have stretched out return springs so
that they press a little harder; perhaps that's part of why this
hasn't been a problem.
>On inspection the clutch contact surfaces that drive the pins have a
>disengaging wear indentations. The more wear, the greater the
>disengaging action.
So replace the clutch. Sorry, I'm not letting go of any of mine,
though I'm still on the originals, since, as mentioned, they don't
slip.
>That sounds so scientifical, "warm/cold flow tests".
Measure out equal sized drops of two different oils on one side of a
plate. Tilt the plate. The one that wins the race to the other side is
thinner. Try this at different temperatures. Oils vary in their
ability to flow well when cold. 10w30 behaved much like the Sturmey
oil. Incidentally, the Sturmey oil now on the market, which is not
really intendend for internals, performed very poorly in this respect.
>What is it you think might not work with ordinary motor oil?
In the years I worked as an auto mechanic, 10w30 was, and as far as I
know, still is "ordinary motor oil."
As for what may or may not work, try putting straight 30 in the
freezer and check its consistency. Even 10w30 gets rather slow.
Unlike motors that pump oil under pressure, the Sturmey, with its
small quantity of spare oil, benifits from an oil that can flow some
and drip off the shell. When the hub is not in use, a quantity ends up
in the bottom, below the level of the ball ring, and when you get
going, it should be able to move around freely. Adding a thinner oil
to the mix when temperatures are below freezing, though not absolutely
necessary, is meant to help things along.
fol...@innercite.com
bicycles as they do. Just give up even trying!
Sheldon Brown
That's fine. I generally use Phil Wood Tenacious Oil, but any
medium-weight oil will do.
The big no-nos are: 3-in-One and WD40.
See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer/service
Sheldon "Not Too Light" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school |
| It's a wonder I can think at all |
| And though my lack of education hasn't hurt me none |
| I can read the writing on the wall --Paul Simon |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
Earl Bollinger
news:1163792911.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
I really like Phil Wood Tenacious Oil, I use it here and there on my Eastman
Roadster.
Another use for it.
Thanks
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I really like Phil Wood Tenacious Oil, I use it here and there on my
> Eastman Roadster. Another use for it.
I wonder how it makes out against motor oil on the Kirk test:
>> As for oil, when my last can of original SA oil began to run out, I
>> did some warm/cold flow tests and found it to be very similar to
>> 10w30 motor oil, which is what I use now, except in the depths of
>> winter when I use a 50/50 mix of 5w20 and 5w.
I was always put off by the name of the Wooden oil in its small
bottles in which it was repackaged, besides suspecting that it was
only motor oil in the first place.
Jobst Brandt
Johnny Sunset
Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> Warning! When riding, do not sprint standing in top gear. These
> units will reliably jump out of gear into forward free wheeling under
> heavy load in that gear. This has been brushed off as improper
> shift-chain adjustment over the years, but that is not true. SA put
> their head in the sand on this issue and threw the problem in the
> user's lap. It cannot be fixed.
Do any other internally geared hubs suffer from this fault?
--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
Brian Huntley
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> I was always put off by the name of the Wooden oil in its small
> bottles in which it was repackaged, besides suspecting that it was
> only motor oil in the first place.
I find the containers themselves have some value, though. Personally I
have a Tri-Flo bottle or two that I refill with Mobil-1. I like the
size and shape of the TF bottle, and the Mobile-1 is a bargain
(although expensive as a motor oil) as the 1L bottle I obtained several
years ago is probably a decade's supply or more, for chain use. I only
ride 5-10 km per year.
In reality, I could probably get by with a much smaller dispenser
bottle even on long tours, but the TF fits my hand well and isn't
likely to be confused with the salad oil or eyedrops or something.
Earl Bollinger
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:455e5181$0$34536$742e...@news.sonic.net...
Phil Wood Tenacious Oil:
I haven't tried any flow tests, But it seems to be more thick than other
oils.
When I put a small drop on the metal joints here and there on the Roadster,
it doesn't run or drip, but stays put.
It seems to have a interesting capillary action too as it flows into the
pivot wear points pretty good.
I wouldn't think a heavy grade oil would do that.
Other oils just flow and drip off the joints, making them somewhat more
messy.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Warning! When riding, do not sprint standing in top gear. These
>> units will reliably jump out of gear into forward free wheeling
>> under heavy load in that gear. This has been brushed off as
>> improper shift-chain adjustment over the years, but that is not
>> true. SA put their head in the sand on this issue and threw the
>> problem in the user's lap. It cannot be fixed.
> Do any other internally geared hubs suffer from this fault?
I don't know. I haven't take any apart or used them. The SA 5-speed
hub has a more substantial engagement in top gear and doesn't seem to
disengage, but that's only because I've only worked on them, not
ridden them. The engagement of the clutch looks better, probably
enough to not disengage under continuous load.
Interestingly, the 5-speed uses the same hub shell as the 3-speed, so
I could use an aluminum SA shell for my sons bicycle (years ago).
Later, a friend machined a replica aluminum shell for me with 3mm
flanges to prevent spokes from breaking, teetering on the standard
2.1mm flanges.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Warning! When riding, do not sprint standing in top gear. These
>> units will reliably jump out of gear into forward free wheeling
>> under heavy load in that gear. This has been brushed off as
>> improper shift-chain adjustment over the years, but that is not
>> true. SA put their head in the sand on this issue and threw the
>> problem in the user's lap. It cannot be fixed.
> Do any other internally geared hubs suffer from this fault?
I don't know. I haven't taken any apart or used them. The SA 5-speed
hub has a more substantial engagement in top gear and doesn't seem to
disengage, but that's only because I've only worked on them, not
ridden them. The engagement of the clutch looks better, probably
enough to not disengage under continuous load.
Interestingly, the 5-speed uses the same hub shell as the 3-speed, so
I used an aluminum SA shell for my sons bicycle (years ago). Later, a
friend machined a replica aluminum shell for me with 3mm flanges to
prevent spokes from breaking on standard SA 2.1mm flanges.
Jobst Brandt
Sheldon Brown
Jobst Brandt commented:
> I was always put off by the name of the Wooden oil in its small
> bottles in which it was repackaged, besides suspecting that it was
> only motor oil in the first place.
I always suspected Sturmey-Archer oil was only motor oil.
Actually, it was the bottles that first attracted me to Phil oil,
because this was the first bicycle lube I ever encountered that came in
a container that was truly leakproof, so I could carry it in my bag
without making an icky mess of the bag and its contents.
Before Phil oil became available, I used to make my own brew up, mixing
motor oil about 10:1 with chainsaw chain & bar lube. Phil oil (and bed
way lube, which is expensive and inconvenient to find) seem
functionally very similar to this brew, so I switched to Phil and
continue to use and recommend it. Actually, my experience with ALL
Phil Wood products has been exemplary.
I'm neither a chemist nor a tribologist, but my understanding is that
chain & bar lube, bed way lube and Phil oil all contain long-chain
polymers that help make them more "tenacious" i.e., sticky. This is
what keeps them from washing off in the first cloudburst.
Sheldon "Plein Bois" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| The man who never alters his opinions is like standing water, |
| and breeds reptiles of the mind. --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Dan Burkhart
Does the fact that the older SA hubs were oil lubricated as opposed to
greased contribute to their longevity or functionality?
These days, all internal hubs, including Sturmey archer, but excluding
Rohloff are grease lubed. Some day, just for snicks, I may grease pack
an old AW just to see how it works. Or, has this been tried?
Dan Burkhart
--
Dan Burkhart
OldRoads
oil.
It's no good.
http://oldroads.com/bicycle_engine.htm