e-bicycle battery subtleties, complexities

[AMuzi]

https://cyclingindustry.news/the-bike-industrys-stance-on-battery-repair-explained/
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[bob prohaska]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> https://cyclingindustry.news/the-bike-industrys-stance-on-battery-repair-explained/

I tend to think the article misses the point. The repair of batteries
will never be practical until there's a semblance of standardisation
for cells, chemistries and BMS behavior. Same problem faced by the auto
industry for components. Not sure how long that took to solve, but probably
longer than e-bikes have been a thing.

bob prohaska

[sms]

Actually, most eBike battery packs use 18650 cells which are very
common. The name brand eBikes use high-quality cells from Samsung,
Panasonic, Sony, or LG.

There are companies that specialize in replacing cells in battery packs
for 2 way radios, power tools, and even Segways. I'm sure that they can
also do eBike battery packs. But they don't selectively replace bad
cells, all the cells are replaced. It's labor-intensive and it may be
about the same cost to just buy a whole new battery pack.

What I'd definitely avoid is any eBike where the batteries are not
removable for charging. It may look cool to have the frame tubes filled
with batteries so there's no big battery on the downtube or rear rack,
but it's not convenient.

[bob prohaska]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Actually, most eBike battery packs use 18650 cells which are very
> common. The name brand eBikes use high-quality cells from Samsung,
> Panasonic, Sony, or LG.
>

Yes, 18660 cells are all the same size and shape. That helps.
But the interconnects on the pack I tried to repair were proprietary,
as in welded. The BMS was undocumented, far as I could tell. The
packaging was one-time (adhesive tape and shrink tube).

It seems likely that 18650 cells will be supplanted in the not too
distant future by pouch cells with lower cost and better packing
density. Exactly what form they'll take is not clear yet.

> There are companies that specialize in replacing cells in battery packs
> for 2 way radios, power tools, and even Segways. I'm sure that they can
> also do eBike battery packs. But they don't selectively replace bad
> cells, all the cells are replaced. It's labor-intensive and it may be
> about the same cost to just buy a whole new battery pack.
>

Under those circumstances the only thing salvaged is the BMS and maybe
the battery box. That's a rather small fraction of the total value. The
box is probably the most valuable, because it's unique. I understand the
logic, though. Hard as it is to get the battery pack apart and back
together, once it's on the bench labor is the dominant expense, so it's
best on average to just replace all the cells.

> What I'd definitely avoid is any eBike where the batteries are not
> removable for charging. It may look cool to have the frame tubes filled
> with batteries so there's no big battery on the downtube or rear rack,
> but it's not convenient.

Agreed entirely. Even better to have different bikes able to use
the same batteries. Would anybody buy a bike that could only use a
tire from the OEM? After all, batteries are consumable parts.

I don't think bike shops will ever be able to "fix" batteries. But,
if the variety of different batteries (and the components within)
can be kept finite, an industry can grow up, like the auto parts
remanufacturing business, that can salvage some value from old parts.
Hopefully it's just a matter of time and production volume.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

[AMuzi]

+1

Our experience with lower end e-bikes is that by the time a
component fails (battery, battery controller, motor
controller) it's 'obsolete' and no longer available and, as
you note, nothing else fits. Very different from auto parts
in that regard.

[John B.]

:-) Gee... my old down tube shifters must be in the neighborhood of
20 years old, at least, and have yet to require repair or rebuild :-)

(I couldn't resist :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

That all sounds reasonable.

It occurs to me that one scheme proposed for electric vehicles was
quickly swappable battery packs. No waiting to recharge; just take out
the depleted battery and slide in a fresh one, like an old style
flashlight.

I think everyone now agrees that's impractical for cars, but it might
work for bicycles, if battery packs were standardized.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Some folks do apparently take a spare to swap over, though in my experience
folks last one the one battery which is about as far as most folks would
MTB anyway ie 20/30 miles properly off road, ie not just gravel roads and
the like.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

My brother takes a spare battery on his 80-100 km trips so he doesn’t have to worry about running out of juice. It is a utility/trekking type of bike and he takes his dog with him in a trailer. He can use his batteries on both his E bikes (different brands).

Lou

[AMuzi]

Porsche is testing a race car with quick-change battery module.

[bob prohaska]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> Porsche is testing a race car with quick-change battery module.
>

On paper quick-change batteries look very good. In practice the
idea has worked very well in other commodity distribution roles
where the packaging is much more valuable than the commodity on
a per-transaction basis.

The compressed gas industry is probably the best known example.
But, the devil is in the details. Buy or rent? If bought, how to
detect theft? If rented, how to track the tenant? Blue Rhino
propane tanks are easy and quick to change, with all the expenses
paid and no tracking. But, they're far more expensive than a refill.
IIRC, a propane refill is about $17. A Blue Rhino swap is about
twice that much. At $17 vs $34, most folks will pay for the speed.
When talking about a battery that's swapped weekly or monthly and
worth hundreds (for a bike) or thousands (for a car) that premium
is utterly infeasible.

And it requires a degree of standardization in packaging and inter-
operation that I don't think we know how to implement, at least not
yet. It's the only obvious, proven solution in sight, but the level
of social organization required to make it work will have to include
a strict "no tampering" rule that effectively rules out user repair
of batteries. I'm not sure that's what I'd like to see....

In any event, some consolidation of battery options seems like a good
first step. Maybe not at the cell level, but at a larger subassembly.
For example, pick increments of four cells (12.8v nominal) and 10 or
100 WH for bikes, and maybe 1 kWH for cars. The physical combination
of the modules could be matched to the bike/car by the builder, the
internal workings of the modules would be up to the builder subject
to required interconnect specs. That would convert each module to a
commodity with all the cost savings of mass production and leave folks
free to experiment at the level of the bicycle.

Something like this is happening now, with lithium iron phosphate
batteries offered in "12 volt" packages with capacity ranging from
a few to a few hundred amp-hours. That seems like a good trend.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

[Lou Holtman]

A race car OK but an EV for normal use? No way. At the moment you can charge about 200-250 km range in half an hour and there is a still potential to improve that.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

What do you do with worn out battery packs? They are recyclable only being 10 times more expensive to recycle than to make a new battery. While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that in 10 years you don't see them anymore. The latest Toyota ICE is simply far more efficient and cheap to build and the infrastructure to build and repair them is simply too widespread.

[AMuzi]

Thank you.

There are some problems with quick change battery modules.
Most electrics are now built around a structurally
significant battery area, normally the entire bottom pan. A
removable unit requires more weight and (as noted in Porsche
test drive review) raises CG.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2023 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that in 10 years you don't see them anymore.

:-) Meanwhile, the top executives of almost all car companies are
disagreeing with Tom.

It'll be interesting to see who turns out to be correct.

(I've thought about keeping track of Tom's predictions, but don't have a
formal record. I note that Gavin Newsom is still in office, Trump's
candidates greatly underperformed in the last election, my retirement
checks continue to come in, etc. etc. all despite Tom's confident claims!)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Just mentioned in the news: 1 out of 4 new sold cars are electric here in the Netherlands.

Lou

[sms]

On 1/19/2023 6:12 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Actually, most eBike battery packs use 18650 cells which are very
>> common. The name brand eBikes use high-quality cells from Samsung,
>> Panasonic, Sony, or LG.
>>
>
> Yes, 18660 cells are all the same size and shape. That helps.
> But the interconnects on the pack I tried to repair were proprietary,
> as in welded. The BMS was undocumented, far as I could tell. The
> packaging was one-time (adhesive tape and shrink tube).

Yes, they always weld them, but a spot welder designed for batteries,
and the nickel strips, are not very expensive, i.e.
<https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804018708510.html>.

[Tom Kunich]

Electric cars are quite valid for urban commuting. But in the USA that is a tiny minority of travel. Goods are no longer shipped exclusively by railroads but are almost entirely the purvey of tractor trailer trucking Deisel trucks are far more efficient than any other form of travel except railroads. Plus companies no longer have to bid on space along Railroad corridors. And they are no longer responsible for track installation and maintenance. Most diesel truck transportation are private companies cheaper than a company running their own fleet. Yet California is already outlawing diesels in California. Electric cars are less efficient than ICE and always will be. Because the government is pushing them should be making you ask what they are getting out of it instead of believing that they are better. The efficiency of electric motors is a known quantity they have been around for a very long time. ICE has not and we know several ways of improving them.

Krygowski claims to be a mechanical engineer so why is he not saying the same thing when in 5 short years powerful propeller fighter aircraft engines went from 500 to over 3,000 horsepower and sportscar motors with limited displacement have gone from 300 to 700 horsepower. This is yet another example of how Krygowski is nothing more than a pin headed group think troll.

"One of Toyota’s newest engines, the 1GD-FTV is a super-efficient 4-cylinder 2.8L diesel engine. Producing 174-horsepower and 330 ft-lb of torque, you can find the 1GD-FTV on Toyota Hilux trucks and Land Cruiser Prado SUVs. The 1GD replaces the 1KD, producing 25% more torque while also being 15% more fuel-efficient."

[sms]

On 1/19/2023 6:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Our experience with lower end e-bikes is that by the time a component
> fails (battery, battery controller, motor controller) it's 'obsolete'
> and no longer available and, as you note, nothing else fits. Very
> different from auto parts in that regard.

I think that when and if I get an e-bike I'll go the DIY route starting
with a steel-frame bike with hydraulic discs, and then add my own front
or rear electric wheel. If something fails then at least I'm able to
replace the battery or motor or controller as needed.

I think that a lot of people look at the $1000 or so cost of an e-bike
conversion, added on to the cost of bicycle that's a good candidate for
the conversion, and compare the $1900-2000 cost to a lower-end eBike
that you can buy for under $1000.

[Roger Merriman]

With EV batteries are the weak point, not the motors which are smaller by
quite a margin for comparable power output, be that HP or torque.

EV trucks are here, at the moment the range is not comparable but as ever
it’s closing, as battery technology improves.

Particularly as certainly in Europe drivers have to stop after X hrs so in
theory both driver and truck can recharge.

>
> Krygowski claims to be a mechanical engineer so why is he not saying the
> same thing when in 5 short years powerful propeller fighter aircraft
> engines went from 500 to over 3,000 horsepower and sportscar motors with
> limited displacement have gone from 300 to 700 horsepower. This is yet
> another example of how Krygowski is nothing more than a pin headed group think troll.
>
> "One of Toyota’s newest engines, the 1GD-FTV is a super-efficient
> 4-cylinder 2.8L diesel engine. Producing 174-horsepower and 330 ft-lb of
> torque, you can find the 1GD-FTV on Toyota Hilux trucks and Land Cruiser
> Prado SUVs. The 1GD replaces the 1KD, producing 25% more torque while
> also being 15% more fuel-efficient."
>

You are aware of the Hilux Revo BEV prototype?

Or that the ford F-150 most torque is the lightning ie the EV version.

Motors aren’t electric vehicles weak point by a long shot.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2023 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:25:15 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:>>> On 1/20/2023 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that in 10 years you don't see them anymore.
>>>

>> Just mentioned in the news: 1 out of 4 new sold cars are electric here in the Netherlands.

:-) Gosh, it's almost as if other people don't believe Tom! Why would
they not? Um, let us count the ways ...

> Electric cars are less efficient than ICE and always will be.

That's absolute, totally ignorant bullshit, Tom.

FWIW, I kept track of my total energy use for my electric car during the
month of December. (The charging cable records kw-hrs delivered, so it's
easy.) I recorded the results. I drove 806 miles that month and used
156.7 kw-hr. That's 5.1 mi/kw-hr. That's equivalent to 172 mpg. And
that's despite running the heater through December.

And your efficiency nonsense would be obvious if you ever opened the
hood of an IC engine car and an EV after they had been driven a while.
Temperatures under an IC hood are high; there's lots of stuff in there
you can't touch without getting burned. That's because a car's engine
operates at less than 20% thermal efficiency. The majority of the energy
in the gasoline becomes just waste heat.

By comparison, the EV's engine compartment is so cool I was able to
install my own large storage box in there to contain cables, tools, etc.
It's a polyethylene box from Lowes. In my previous car it would melt.

As a final kicker, here we pay 5.4 cents per kw-hr. I drive this car for
about a penny per mile energy cost. Our previous car got about 40 mpg.
At $4 per gallon, that would be 10 times as much for the energy. (Not
that saving money was my motivation at all.)

> Krygowski claims to be a mechanical engineer so why is he not saying the same thing when in 5 short years powerful propeller fighter aircraft engines went from 500 to over 3,000 horsepower and sportscar motors with limited displacement have gone from 300 to 700 horsepower.

What are you talking about? The early 20th century? Gasoline engines are
mature technology, just like bicycles. There will be no miraculous
improvements coming soon.

> "One of Toyota’s newest engines, the 1GD-FTV is a super-efficient 4-cylinder 2.8L diesel engine. Producing 174-horsepower and 330 ft-lb of torque, you can find the 1GD-FTV on Toyota Hilux trucks and Land Cruiser Prado SUVs. The 1GD replaces the 1KD, producing 25% more torque while also being 15% more fuel-efficient."

If it becomes 10 times more efficient, it may be able to compete with an
EV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:57:36 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/20/2023 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:25:15 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:>>> On 1/20/2023 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that in 10 years you don't see them anymore.
> >>>
> >> Just mentioned in the news: 1 out of 4 new sold cars are electric here in the Netherlands.
> :-) Gosh, it's almost as if other people don't believe Tom! Why would
> they not? Um, let us count the ways ...
> > Electric cars are less efficient than ICE and always will be.
> That's absolute, totally ignorant bullshit, Tom.
>
> FWIW, I kept track of my total energy use for my electric car during the
> month of December. (The charging cable records kw-hrs delivered, so it's
> easy.) I recorded the results. I drove 806 miles that month and used
> 156.7 kw-hr. That's 5.1 mi/kw-hr.

Are you sure? That is 12.3 kWh/100 km (that is how we measure it). That is extremely low especially in winter with a turned on heater. I would expect somewhere between 20 and 25 kWh/100 km, unless you are driving at a constant speed of 50 km/hr. We pay €0.40/hr BTW at the moment.

Lou

[AMuzi]

> Are you sure? That is 12.3 kWh/100 km (that is how we measure it). That is extremely low especially in winter with a turned on heater. I would expect somewhere between 20 and 25 kWh/100 km, unless you are driving at a constant speed of 50 km/hr. We pay €0.40/hr BTW at the moment.
>
> Lou
>

I wondered about that but I don't know EV operating costs.

I noticed the rate, as 'electricity' billing has become
cryptic besides expensive.

My monthly bill last week shows a whopping US$0.124 (OK, not
California or Europe but still more than 2x Mr Krygowski's
rate).

And with the ancillary charges (access fee, distribution
fee, two separate 'special energy adjustments', low income
energy assistance fee, taxes) the actual delivered price
increased 21.3% or an effective US$0.1504.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 08:44:24 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>What do you do with worn out battery packs?

Recycle the materials or reuse them for utility grid energy storage.
Read all about it and more:
<https://www.automotivemanufacturingsolutions.com/battery-recycling/534496.subject>
(free registration required)

>They are recyclable only being 10 times more expensive
>to recycle than to make a new battery.

Wrong. The processed materials from a recycled battery are worth MORE
than the raw materials used to build the battery:
<https://www.automotivemanufacturingsolutions.com/ev-battery-production/ev-battery-recycling-cost-and-components/41287.article>
(free registration required)
"...an interesting difference between new and depleted Li-ion
automotive batteries is the difference in the respective values of the
cathode and anode current collector materials compared to that of the
whole battery. It actually increases from 51% to 93%."

>While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that in 10
>years you don't see them anymore.

I don't gamble, but if I did, I would gladly take your bet. What
you're not considering is that the useful life (i.e. charge cycles) of
today's EV batteries are becoming longer than the useful life of the
vehicle without the battery. LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) alone
can do 1,000 to 10,000 charge cycles, compared to 500 to 1,000 charge
cycles for LiIon (lithium ion):
<https://www.aceongroup.com/news/what-is-the-difference-between-lithium-iron-phosphate-and-lithium-ion-batteries/>
I would suspect that there will be a substantial market for used EV
batteries long after the vehicle itself has fallen apart.

>The latest Toyota ICE is simply far more efficient and cheap
>to build and the infrastructure to build and repair them is
>simply too widespread.

Show me some numbers and your sources and maybe I'll believe that.
Repair infrastructure is useless if there are no parts (i.e. chip
shortage) available.




--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[bob prohaska]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> There are some problems with quick change battery modules.
> Most electrics are now built around a structurally
> significant battery area, normally the entire bottom pan. A
> removable unit requires more weight and (as noted in Porsche
> test drive review) raises CG.

I'd submit that's a misguided optimization. But the key is to
establish just what the optimization goals are. To a degree
they're different for everybody, but we compromise on a few
things to make goods like cars, bicycles and clothes commodities
available to all for a relatively low cost. That takes time and
experience at least. Maybe some economic pressure as well. When
more folks discover that batteries do wear out they'll start to
factor in the costs of repair when they shop.

[Tom Kunich]

No one is arguing that electric motors are high torque at zero RPM. The point is that energy efficiency is HIGHER in internal combustion engines and there is room to improve. You have to convert FUEL to electricity, that is an energy loss. You have to MOVE that electrical energy from one point to another and THAT is an energy loss. You have to convert that alternating current electricity to direct current electrical energy and that is a loss, Then you have to use that DC energy to charge inefficient batteries which is a loss. Then you have to discharge batteries which is a loss and then you get to run that electrical energy THROUGH A MOTOR which includes losses.

Now compare this to an ICE which generates the energy on the spot and uses it. Now if Frank were REALLY a mechanical engineer he could tell you the same thing. But he has shown again and again why he couldn't get a job as a mechanical engineer.

[bob prohaska]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What do you do with worn out battery packs?
> They are recyclable only being 10 times more expensive
> to recycle than to make a new battery.

First, make the batteries easier to recycle. Separate the
electrochemical parts from electronic parts from mechanical
parts so what's worn out has to be recycled separately. Favor
more easily separated materials in construction over less easily
separated materials.

Lead-acid batteries are recycled quite effectively. Partly,
they're intrinsically easy to recycle, consisting of lead
alloys, sulfuric acid and plastic. All fairly easily separated.
Still, lead isn't particularly valuable. It is toxic, and that
provided much of the initial incentive.

Lithium cells are more difficult, especially if the interconnects,
battery management circuitry and packaging are recycled as a unit.
Keeping them separate and giving them a somewht uniform composition
will certainly help.

Maybe it can't be cheaper to recycle lithium than it is to mine new
material. Then we have to pay for the housekeeping expense.

Fundamentally we have to learn how to clean up after ourselves.
That will unavoidably alter what we decide to do in the first
place.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2023 6:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> The point is that energy efficiency is HIGHER in internal combustion engines and there is room to improve.

IC engine efficiency is not higher than an EV motor, not by a long shot.
Bargain basement electric motors can easily hit 90% efficiency. An
engine in a car would be doing well to hit 20% efficiency. Look it up
and give citations. Or just pay attention to the huge amount of waste
heat generated by an IC engine.

(It seems you dropped out of school before learning any thermodynamics
at all!)

> You have to convert FUEL to electricity, that is an energy loss.

True, depending on your source of electricity. False if you're
discussing wind, solar or hydro generation. That mix is constantly
improving, and even in my state the EV uses far less input energy.

> You have to MOVE that electrical energy from one point to another and THAT is an energy loss.

:-) Do you think gasoline is magically transported from the refinery to
your car's tank? Hint: Watch for tanker trucks heading for gas stations.

> You have to convert that alternating current electricity to direct current electrical energy and that is a loss,

Very little loss.

> Then you have to use that DC energy to charge inefficient batteries which is a loss.

Again, very little, on the order of 5%.

> Then you have to discharge batteries which is a loss and then you get to run that electrical energy THROUGH A MOTOR which includes losses.

Tom, why do you think you're the first person to think of this
accounting exercise? Honestly, you're not that brilliant!


> Now compare this to an ICE which generates the energy on the spot...

HAHAHAHA!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2023 5:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:57:36 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/20/2023 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:25:15 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:>>> On 1/20/2023 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that in 10 years you don't see them anymore.
>>>>>
>>>> Just mentioned in the news: 1 out of 4 new sold cars are electric here in the Netherlands.
>> :-) Gosh, it's almost as if other people don't believe Tom! Why would
>> they not? Um, let us count the ways ...
>>> Electric cars are less efficient than ICE and always will be.
>> That's absolute, totally ignorant bullshit, Tom.
>>
>> FWIW, I kept track of my total energy use for my electric car during the
>> month of December. (The charging cable records kw-hrs delivered, so it's
>> easy.) I recorded the results. I drove 806 miles that month and used
>> 156.7 kw-hr. That's 5.1 mi/kw-hr.
>
> Are you sure? That is 12.3 kWh/100 km (that is how we measure it). That is extremely low especially in winter with a turned on heater.

I'll admit, it's significantly better efficiency than I expected, but
that's what the consumption meter told me for December. IIRC, the car's
inboard meter claims something near 4 mi/kw-hr for the life of the car.
That would include a fair amount of AC in the summer.

We haven't had to use the cabin heater much. The car has heated seats
and steering wheel. I typically need neither, but my wife is sensitive
to cold and prefers her seat heater turned on. She also uses a small (2
feet square) lap blanket when it's cold, and in winter we travel with
winter coats on.

I reset the meter at the end of December. I'll check it again at the end
of January and see if it gives a similar reading.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 1/20/2023 3:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> My monthly bill last week shows a whopping US$0.124 (OK, not California
> or Europe but still more than 2x Mr Krygowski's rate).

12.4¢/KWH is a good rate. The U.S. average is 16.09¢/KWH. The city next
to mine, Santa Clara, with a municipally owner power company, is
14.4¢/KWH, while the average PG&E rate (investor-owned utility) is
33.8¢/KWH.

An unintended side-effect of the low rates in Santa Clara is that few
residents install solar panels. In the higher-cost areas, there are a
LOT of solar panels. I'd say that 3/4 of the houses in my neighborhood
have installed solar. It essentially brings your average electric bill
to zero since in California, for now, the utility credits you the
_retail_ value of the KWH you put on the grid. So while PG&E pays about
2¢/KWH to buy wholesale electricity from power plants, they pay
homeowners about 10x that amount, and they are very unhappy about this.
Those that have not installed solar are essentially subsidizing those
with solar.

[Tom Kunich]

Lou, Frank has claimed to be a mechanical engineer. He passes off bull like those numbers. Why do you suppose he doesn't mention that just one gallon of gas contains 121,000 kW/hrs? Or that while the usual efficiency of a gas engine is 35%, serious studies in Switzerland have shown efficiencies of 45% with room for additional improvements. And HEATING is free since it is waste heat. 35% of 121,000 kW/hrs is 42,000 kW/hrs and 45% is 54,450 kW/h

Of course there are losses from stop and go driving etc. But ALL of this can be easily mitigated with constant speed motors which is the means in Diesel Electric trains.

So you have to seriously wonder exactly what sort of students Frank was turning out. As I pointed out, Frank claimed to teach mechanical engineering but the college listed him as teaching industrial engineering which is substantially different.

I will be truthful with you. It gives me no joy or satisfaction to show these sorts of things. Anyone that holds ANY job is important to society. But why don't they take satisfaction in what they are and what they did rather than make it other than what it was? I'm not bragging about what I was and what I did, I am RESPONDING to the claims of these idiots that I didn't do what I did. My resume was public information and I could not have been hired without the pertinent parts of my resume being checked.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, something else is going on as well, My last PG&E bill was $320 of which only $20 was electricity. The month before, was $280 with the same electricity bill.

[Frank Krygowski]

Here's what I found online: "Ohio Edison Company's residential “Price to
Compare” for the generation supply portion of your bill for the period
of January 1, 2023 through March 31, 2023 is $0.053829/kWh*."

But it seems I'm misinterpreting that. I had assumed a fixed fee for
infrastructure, etc. supplying the power, plus a consumption fee per
kw-hr (especially since my bill has a line item for "consumption"). But
checking several bills, neither portion of the bill is fixed. Both must
be on per kw-hr rates.

For December (well, 12/7 to 1/7/23) I paid just shy of $109 (total) for
872 kw-hr. So that's 12.5 cents per kw-hr. My mistake.

But driving the EV is still much cheaper than driving the previous 40
mpg car. Just not as cheap as I was thinking.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Don't say what we HAVE to do because we're not doing that. Batteries presently are not being recycled and if it was anywhere economically profitable new companies would be formed to do it.

[danny burstein]

In <tqfbk8$29kd9$2...@dont-email.me> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> writes:

[lots snipped]

>I'll admit, it's significantly better efficiency than I expected, but
>that's what the consumption meter told me for December. IIRC, the car's
>inboard meter claims something near 4 mi/kw-hr for the life of the car.
>That would include a fair amount of AC in the summer.

Having a phev of my own, I'll confirm that 250 w-hr/mile number.

A kw of charge does, in fact, get me about four miles of range.
Or sometimes even five..

(There's a commercial, metered/pay charging station
on my way home. If I've used up the battery charge
and have the time, I'll stop there and pay for a kw
or so. That lets me drive the rest fo the way home
without using any more gasoline [a])

[a] I've worked out the math numerous times. Up to
about $0.40 kw-hr using electricity gets me better
economy than using gasoline (depending on fuel price,
of course). Throw in some added harder to calculate
benefits like less wear and tear on the gasoline
engine and related systems, so call it in
favor of electricity up to, I dunno, $0.50 /kw-hr.

For good measure... add in another 5 or 10 cents
for the "fuck the oil companies" finger..

In other words, with the one exception of
the commercial charging location with its
*five dollar* "hookup fee", all the pay-site
locations are worth using. (Again, assuming
there's no issue with time).


--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you suppose that electricity is so cheap when the fossil fuel to make it is so expensive? This sounds like a dramatic subsidy to get people to use an energy source that doesn't need so much infrastructure.

[AMuzi]

>>> Are you sure? That is 12.3 kWh/100 km (that is how we

>>> measure it). That is extremely low especially in winter
>>> with a turned on heater. I would expect somewhere between
>>> 20 and 25 kWh/100 km, unless you are driving at a

>>> constant speed of 50 km/hr. We pay €0.40/hr BTW at

>>> the moment.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>
>> I wondered about that but I don't know EV operating costs.
>>

>> I noticed the rate, as 'electricity' billing has become

>> cryptic besides expensive.
>>
>> My monthly bill last week shows a whopping US$0.124 (OK,
>> not California or Europe but still more than 2x Mr
>> Krygowski's rate).
>
> Here's what I found online: "Ohio Edison Company's

> residential “Price to Compare†for the generation supply

> portion of your bill for the period of January 1, 2023
> through March 31, 2023 is $0.053829/kWh*."
>
> But it seems I'm misinterpreting that. I had assumed a fixed
> fee for infrastructure, etc. supplying the power, plus a
> consumption fee per kw-hr (especially since my bill has a
> line item for "consumption"). But checking several bills,
> neither portion of the bill is fixed. Both must be on per
> kw-hr rates.
>
> For December (well, 12/7 to 1/7/23) I paid just shy of $109
> (total) for 872 kw-hr. So that's 12.5 cents per kw-hr. My
> mistake.
>
> But driving the EV is still much cheaper than driving the
> previous 40 mpg car. Just not as cheap as I was thinking.
>

That explains a lot.

p.s. If I wrote invoices to customers the way utilities bill
energy I'd be out of business promptly. Tire $19.95, Tire
acquisition fee $2, tire transport fee $1.23, tire shelf
label $1.68, tire retrieval fee $3.17...

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2023 7:53 PM, danny burstein wrote:
> Throw in some added harder to calculate
> benefits like less wear and tear on the gasoline

> engine and related systems...

Since mine is completely electric, I've got much less to maintain.

As I've told before, when it was time to write the check at the dealer,
the guy doing the paperwork tried hard to sell me the fanciest extra
warranty. He said "This will cover all your normal maintenance for three
years!" I asked "What normal maintenance?" and he said "Well, oil
changes and filter, to start with!"

I said "It's electric!"

He said "Oh."

And I've gotten two post cards telling me to come in for scheduled
maintenance. I'd checked the manual, but to be sure I phoned and asked
what would be done. The dealership lady on the phone dug around for a
while, then said "I guess we'd check your tire pressure and rotate the
tires." I told her "I do those myself. Thanks."

To be sure, there is a downside to this system. If anything should go
wrong with this car, it's pretty unlikely that I'd be able to fix it.
And I know it's odd that the group's top retrogrouch now has an EV.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 10:34:16 p.m. UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:27:13 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>
> >On 1/19/2023 8:12 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
> >> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>> Actually, most eBike battery packs use 18650 cells which are very
> >>> common. The name brand eBikes use high-quality cells from Samsung,
> >>> Panasonic, Sony, or LG.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, 18660 cells are all the same size and shape. That helps.
> >> But the interconnects on the pack I tried to repair were proprietary,
> >> as in welded. The BMS was undocumented, far as I could tell. The
> >> packaging was one-time (adhesive tape and shrink tube).
> >>

> >> It seems likely that 18650 cells will be supplanted in the not too
> >> distant future by pouch cells with lower cost and better packing
> >> density. Exactly what form they'll take is not clear yet.
> >>
> >>> There are companies that specialize in replacing cells in battery packs
> >>> for 2 way radios, power tools, and even Segways. I'm sure that they can
> >>> also do eBike battery packs. But they don't selectively replace bad
> >>> cells, all the cells are replaced. It's labor-intensive and it may be
> >>> about the same cost to just buy a whole new battery pack.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Under those circumstances the only thing salvaged is the BMS and maybe
> >> the battery box. That's a rather small fraction of the total value. The
> >> box is probably the most valuable, because it's unique. I understand the
> >> logic, though. Hard as it is to get the battery pack apart and back
> >> together, once it's on the bench labor is the dominant expense, so it's
> >> best on average to just replace all the cells.
> >>
> >>> What I'd definitely avoid is any eBike where the batteries are not
> >>> removable for charging. It may look cool to have the frame tubes filled
> >>> with batteries so there's no big battery on the downtube or rear rack,
> >>> but it's not convenient.
> >>
> >> Agreed entirely. Even better to have different bikes able to use
> >> the same batteries. Would anybody buy a bike that could only use a
> >> tire from the OEM? After all, batteries are consumable parts.
> >>
> >> I don't think bike shops will ever be able to "fix" batteries. But,
> >> if the variety of different batteries (and the components within)
> >> can be kept finite, an industry can grow up, like the auto parts
> >> remanufacturing business, that can salvage some value from old parts.
> >> Hopefully it's just a matter of time and production volume.

> >>
> >> Thanks for reading,
> >>
> >> bob prohaska
> >>
> >

> >+1

> >
> >Our experience with lower end e-bikes is that by the time a
> >component fails (battery, battery controller, motor
> >controller) it's 'obsolete' and no longer available and, as
> >you note, nothing else fits. Very different from auto parts
> >in that regard.

> :-) Gee... my old down tube shifters must be in the neighborhood of
> 20 years old, at least, and have yet to require repair or rebuild :-)
>
> (I couldn't resist :-)
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

My Dura Ace AX downtube shifters are still going strong. Ditto for my Shimano 600 Arabesque downtube shifters and derailleurs.

Cheers

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/20/2023 7:39 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> ... the usual efficiency of a gas engine is 35%...

No it's not, Tom. That may be a practical maximum, but it's nowhere near
the typical value for a car in motion.

IC engines are at their most efficient when at full open throttle (one
of the reasons small cars with small engines get better gas mileage),
and peak efficiency occurs only at a certain range of rpms. Most of the
time a car's engine is operating at a very different rpm, and at a very
restricted throttle opening.

> Of course there are losses from stop and go driving etc. But ALL of this can be easily mitigated with constant speed motors which is the means in Diesel Electric trains.

Which are used in how many automobiles, please?

> So you have to seriously wonder exactly what sort of students Frank was turning out. As I pointed out, Frank claimed to teach mechanical engineering but the college listed him as teaching industrial engineering which is substantially different.

I don't know which part of your imagination came up with that lie.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Officially only consumer zinc, alkaline, NiCad are accepted
in Oakland (the directions are a hoot!):

https://www.oaklandrecycles.com/what-goes-where/hazardous-waste/

The 'battery' PDF link says that. In color too!

Auto lead-acid batteries (lower on the page) go to a
'certified facility' whatever or wherever that is

Although City of Oakland is too important for Li-Ion battery
recycling, Home Depot will take them:

https://www.homedepot.com/c/ab/how-to-dispose-of-batteries/9ba683603be9fa5395fab90124a115f1

It's just a bike ride away:

4000 Alameda Ave, Oakland, CA 94601

[bob prohaska]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, they always weld them, but a spot welder designed for batteries,
> and the nickel strips, are not very expensive, i.e.
> <https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804018708510.html>.

Quick & easy for building battery packs, not so great for repairing
them. Spot welding is excellent for small packs and generally for
things that will never be repaired. The point I'm trying to
make is that serviceability costs money and is worth at least
some up front. I tried to fix a welded 18650 pack. It was hard.
Balancing cells required separating the cells, measuring them
and then putting the good ones back together. Most of the welds
had to be broken. Impossible? No. Worth doing? Very marginal.

I'd suggest that larger cells connected mechanically (bolts,
most likely) are more appropriate. 18650's are too small.
Double or triple the volume, maybe yes. But pouch cells
are coming, with lower cost and better packing density.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

[sms]

The fad on eBikes seems to be putting round cells inside the frame tubes
so flat cells. While 21700 (5000mAH) or 26650 size batteries (6500
mAH)would seem to make the most sense for inside frame tubes, they are
much more expensive per mAH than 18650 cells unless you're an EV maker
manufacturing your own cells. The other advantage is that the cells are
inside a steel or aluminum enclosure.

Pouch cells have been around for more than 25 years. They have their own
set of problems.

[sms]

On 1/20/2023 5:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> p.s. If I wrote invoices to customers the way utilities bill energy I'd
> be out of business promptly. Tire $19.95, Tire acquisition fee $2, tire
> transport fee $1.23, tire shelf label $1.68, tire retrieval fee $3.17...

You forgot "ordering fee," "pickup fee," "Covid recovery fee," "ACA
fee," "staff appreciation fee," "technology fee," "employee wellness
fee," "tire inflation fee," and "administrative fee."

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:46:03 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well, something else is going on as well, My last PG&E bill was $320 of which only $20 was electricity. The month before, was $280 with the same electricity bill.

We've been here before and you ignored my comments. Let's try again.

My Dec 2022 billing was $66.48 for electricity.
$27.56 of that went to PG&E for delivery.
$38.92 of that went to Central Coast Community Energy for generation.
I do not have natural gas service and there were no "credits" this
month.

My billing history spreadsheet and graphs since July 2020:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/PG&E-billing-history-03.xlsx>
Earlier history back to 2008 in a different format:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/PG&E-to-2022-07-16.xlsx>

$320 seems to be in line with the latest price increases:
"PG&E bills prompting sticker shock from Bay Area customers"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfRAZiSUcE>

My guess(tm) is that the natural gas part of your billing is the
culprit.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:37:04 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/20/2023 3:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> My monthly bill last week shows a whopping US$0.124 (OK, not California
>> or Europe but still more than 2x Mr Krygowski's rate).

>12.4¢/KWH is a good rate. The U.S. average is 16.09¢/KWH. The city next
>to mine, Santa Clara, with a municipally owner power company, is
>14.4¢/KWH, while the average PG&E rate (investor-owned utility) is
>33.8¢/KWH.

All of my usage is in Tier 1 (up to 754 kWh which is about twice my
monthly usage) at $0.315/kWh. However, I receive a substantial
discount for being a member of the PG&E CARE program:
<https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/save-energy-money/help-paying-your-bill/longer-term-assistance/care/care.page>
which reduces my rate to $0.205/kWh for Tier 1. This month, the
savings were $41.10.

>An unintended side-effect of the low rates in Santa Clara is that few
>residents install solar panels. In the higher-cost areas, there are a
>LOT of solar panels. I'd say that 3/4 of the houses in my neighborhood
>have installed solar. It essentially brings your average electric bill
>to zero since in California, for now, the utility credits you the
>_retail_ value of the KWH you put on the grid. So while PG&E pays about
>2¢/KWH to buy wholesale electricity from power plants, they pay
>homeowners about 10x that amount, and they are very unhappy about this.
>Those that have not installed solar are essentially subsidizing those
>with solar.

In California, Net Metering 3.0 was passed by the PUC on Dec 15, 2022.
It will reduce what PG&E pays to home producers by 75%. This covers
the details:
"What is NEM 3.0 and How Will it Impact California Solar Owners?"
<https://www.solar.com/learn/nem-3-0-proposal-and-impacts-for-california-homeowners/>
"Under NEM 3.0, customers of PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E with solar systems
will receive an average of 8 cents per kWh for the excess power they
push onto the grid. This is roughly 75% less than the average export
rate of 30 cents per kWh under NEM 2.0."

Perhaps this would be a good time to invest in home energy storage
systems?

[Lou Holtman]

Maybe it is set to km instead of miles;-)

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Or an EV. That is what I am going to do.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Note that batteries are not recycled despite what they say. They are hauled up to the same landfill that they use for the other garbage in the Altamont Pass. Remember that I had a brother than just retired from the Sewer plant as an electrician and it was directly next door to the garbage and recycling center.

[Tom Kunich]

Right on the spot Bob. Economics will trump every other consideration.

[Frank Krygowski]

It's actually set to kw-hr.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/21/2023 1:58 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>
> In California, Net Metering 3.0 was passed by the PUC on Dec 15, 2022.

> It will reduce what PG&E pays to home producers by 75%. ...

>
> Perhaps this would be a good time to invest in home energy storage
> systems?

Since a home energy storage system is essentially a great big battery,
and since the EV I now own contains a great big battery, I've wondered
about the feasibility of a solar panel directly trickle charging the car.

I purposely chose the words "trickle charging" because the car came with
a 120V charging cable, and manual was adamant that its use was not
normal charging; it was "trickle charging."

I have one acquaintance (not close friend) with an EV and a large solar
array. I thought he was doing what I described above, but I learned this
summer that his panels are connected to the grid, not directly to the
car. He says he tries to charge his car when the sun's shining, but
that's not the same thing. For one thing, he's getting paid essentially
"wholesale" price for what comes out of his panels, but pays "retail"
price for what goes into the car.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

I have a wall box installed at home and I can tell the charger to only charge the car when my solar panels produce more than I use.

Lou

[AMuzi]

> Note that batteries are not recycled despite what they say. They are hauled up to the same landfill that they use for the other garbage in the Altamont Pass. Remember that I had a brother than just retired from the Sewer plant as an electrician and it was directly next door to the garbage and recycling center.
>

That's true of all municipal recycling programs. Most (by
weight or by volume) goes to landfill. But as a consumer,
dropping it in their nicely color coded plastic bin
completes _your_ portion of the 'recycling' racket.

If my reply above was not clear, Home Depot takes them in
Oakland.

[Frank Krygowski]

Sounds good. I don't have a wall box. Instead I bought a 240V charging
cable with integral controller, mostly because I needed to quickly
arrange for home charging. I first repurposed an existing 240V circuit,
mounting an outlet outside the house. That was temporary until I could
run 240V to my detached garage.

The 120V charging cable that came with the car can be set to 8, 10 or
12A. I suppose a ~1 kW system is feasible, but there would be some
complexity.

I have time to work this out. I'm waiting for an old tree to die so its
shade is gone.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

FWIW, I'm a recycling skeptic. From what I've been able to learn, home
recycling of aluminum cans works, in that there is a market strong
enough that the material is not landfilled. Paper also works, which
amazes me. I was astonished to hear that glass does not work. I was not
surprised to learn that post-consumer recycling of plastics essentially
never pays off.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 02:03:25 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
<b...@www.zefox.net> wrote:

>I tried to fix a welded 18650 pack. It was hard.
>Balancing cells required separating the cells, measuring them
>and then putting the good ones back together. Most of the welds
>had to be broken. Impossible? No. Worth doing? Very marginal.

Agreed. The problem is not just the welds. The 18650 cells is
usually 18mm diameter, but the 65mm length varies considerably due to
the inclusion of a protection circuit board, a "button" on the
positive terminal used for cells that fit in spring loaded sockets, or
paper end insulators[1].

Matching batteries is critical (for safety). I have a West Mountain
Radio CBA-II that I use for discharge testing and matching. It will
only test one cell at a time and takes about 30 mins each to generate
a graph.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg>
Finding a matching cell is pure luck because different manufacturer
and model cells age at different rates. The graph curves might match
today, but could diverge eventually. A BMS (battery management
system) will help maintain balance and hopefully prevent reverse
polarization, but is not a substitute for matched batteries.

>I'd suggest that larger cells connected mechanically (bolts,
>most likely) are more appropriate. 18650's are too small.
>Double or triple the volume, maybe yes. But pouch cells
>are coming, with lower cost and better packing density.

I think prismatic cells might be the next big thing in large battery
construction.
"Prismatic Cells vs. Cylindrical Cells: What is the Difference?"
<https://www.laserax.com/blog/prismatic-vs-cylindrical-cells>

[1] When removing nickel strips by breaking the welds, there nickel
tends to tear, leaving a sharp fragment on the surface of the end
terminal. In order to re-weld such a used battery, the sharp fragment
must be removed. For minimal welds, I do tolerably well with a flush
cut diagonal pliers. For everything else, I use a Dremel rotary
grinder to regain a flat terminal surface. This can be very tedious
and time consuming when each cell can have 8 to 10 sharp fragments
that require grinding.

[sms]

On 1/21/2023 8:27 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> I have a wall box installed at home and I can tell the charger to only charge the car when my solar panels produce more than I use.

Also, a 120V charger can provide about 3 miles per hour worth of charge.
For most users, 30 miles of charge is enough. My neighbor has a Tesla
Model 3 and drives about 15 miles each way to work. She has only a Level
1 charger and it's enough to keep the battery topped up. She has solar
on the roof, but it would make no sense to use that power to charge the
vehicle, it's much better to sell high-value KWH back to the utility
then use low-value KWH, at night, to charge the battery. But if you're
only getting wholesale value for the KWH you put on the grid then having
a battery to store the solar-generated KWH makes sense.

[danny burstein]

In <tqih29$rqo$1...@gioia.aioe.org> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> writes:

>On 1/21/2023 8:27 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

><snip>

>> I have a wall box installed at home and I can tell the charger to only charge the car when my solar panels produce more than I use.

>Also, a 120V charger can provide about 3 miles per hour worth of charge.

More like 5 (depending on car, of course), but yeah

To those playing along at home:

A "Level I" charger is designed to plug into a standard 120VAC outlet,
and hence... will be limited to 12 amps (that's based on 80% of
the typical 15 amp circuit). That lets it pump through
about 1.4 kilowatts - roughly the same as a toaster over
would use.

You can get certified (NTL/UL/etc.) Level I chargers rated
at 16 amps (80% of 20 amps), and you can find NON certified
ones going up to 20...

"Level II" chargers use a 240VAC (well, also 208) so automatially
give you twice the current. Most of them, though, are also
hooked up to a higher amperage circuit - typically 30 amps,
which is common for electric ovens... so will provide about
four times the current - or 20 miles per hour of charging.

Again, you can find higher ones.

So in short: Level I uses standard 120VAC outlets, and
gets you 3 to 5 miles of range per hour of charge, while
Level II use 240VAC, plus higher amperage, and 15 to 20
miles per hour of charging.

>For most users, 30 miles of charge is enough. My neighbor has a Tesla
>Model 3 and drives about 15 miles each way to work. She has only a Level
>1 charger and it's enough to keep the battery topped up.

That's cutting it a bit close, but if she can do additional
charging over the weekend, she'll have lots of extra.

Plus, of course, if she can plug it in at work...

[bob prohaska]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't say what we HAVE to do because we're not doing that. Batteries presently are not being recycled and if it was anywhere economically profitable new companies would be formed to do it.

You forgot the implied "or else..." 8-)

bob prohaska

[bob prohaska]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Note that batteries are not recycled despite what they say. They are hauled up to the same landfill that they use for the other garbage in the Altamont Pass.

There's little reason to recycle any but lead, cadmium and, maybe, nickel-based
cells for health and safety reasons. Nothing to do with resource conservation
at present, rather it's a pollution mitigation project.

bob prohaska

[sms]

Li-Ion batteries are being recycled. In fact one company will pay you a
token amount for them and they pick them up. They had a booth at an
event I was at in October.

<https://www.batteryrecyclersofamerica.com/how-our-battery-recycling-process-works/>

The large battery packs, like from electric cars, are re-used for
electricity storage once their capacity decreases to the level where the
weight of the batteries versus the capacity no longer makes them
practical for electric cars. But very few electric cars are at the age
where their batteries need to be replaced.

[Frank Krygowski]

"How long do electric car batteries last?

"The hundreds of gently topped-up cells inside an EV battery mean that
each battery pack is expected to retain its charging-discharging
capacity from 100,000 to 200,000 miles. Manufacturers are so confident
of the battery’s road use that most electric cars come with an extended
warranty of eight years, or 100,000 miles.

The battery will outlive the car...

“The battery will outlive the car,” says Graeme Cooper confidently.
“Today, most EV batteries have a life expectancy of 15 to 20 years
within the car – and a second life beyond.”

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/what-happens-old-electric-car-batteries

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

<eyeroll> Leftist propaganda...

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 20.01.2023 um 23:26 schrieb Lou Holtman:
> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:57:36 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski

> wrote:
>> On 1/20/2023 2:37 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 10:25:15 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman

>>> wrote:
>>>> On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC+1, Frank
>>>> Krygowski wrote:>>> On 1/20/2023 11:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While there are uses for electric vehicles my bet is that
>>>>>> in 10 years you don't see them anymore.
>>>>>
>>>> Just mentioned in the news: 1 out of 4 new sold cars are
>>>> electric here in the Netherlands.
>> :-) Gosh, it's almost as if other people don't believe Tom! Why
>> would they not? Um, let us count the ways ...
>>> Electric cars are less efficient than ICE and always will be.
>> That's absolute, totally ignorant bullshit, Tom.
>>
>> FWIW, I kept track of my total energy use for my electric car
>> during the month of December. (The charging cable records kw-hrs
>> delivered, so it's easy.) I recorded the results. I drove 806 miles
>> that month and used 156.7 kw-hr. That's 5.1 mi/kw-hr.
>
> Are you sure? That is 12.3 kWh/100 km (that is how we measure it).
> That is extremely low especially in winter with a turned on heater. I

> would expect somewhere between 20 and 25 kWh/100 km, unless you are
> driving at a constant speed of 50 km/hr. We pay €0.40/hr BTW at the
> moment.

On the Hyundai Kona, I've reached those kind of efficiencies for mostly
urban traffic in summer (with a minimum below 10 on some trips). Winter
has been mostly 15 to 20 kWh/100km away from the motorways.

The main efficiency points are speed and start-up energy waste, so if
trips are typically both urban in character and longer than 5 miles you
get efficient going.

Rolf

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 21.01.2023 um 18:35 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 1/21/2023 12:14 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/21/2023 9:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> Note that batteries are not recycled despite what they say. They
>>> are hauled up to the same landfill that they use for the other
>>> garbage in the Altamont Pass. Remember that I had a brother than
>>> just retired from the Sewer plant as an electrician and it was
>>> directly next door to the garbage and recycling center.
>>>
>>
>> That's true of all municipal recycling programs. Most (by weight
>> or by volume) goes to landfill. But as a consumer, dropping it in
>> their nicely color coded plastic bin completes _your_ portion of
>> the 'recycling' racket.
>
> FWIW, I'm a recycling skeptic. From what I've been able to learn,
> home recycling of aluminum cans works, in that there is a market
> strong enough that the material is not landfilled. Paper also works,
> which amazes me. I was astonished to hear that glass does not work.

It does seem to work efficiently in Europe but the recycling savings per
tonne of weight might be low enough to make in uneconomic in low-density
USA.

> I was not surprised to learn that post-consumer recycling of
> plastics essentially never pays off.

Recycling of PET bottles does pay off when there's a deposit-system
ensuring that nothing other than PET is collected.

Rolf

[Lou Holtman]

When I test drove mine in the summer I did a mix of urban roads (30-50 km/hr) with a lot of start stop, country roads (60-80 km/hr) and highway (100-120 km/hr) a typical ride for me. The average for that 90 km ride was 17 kWh/100 km. This was in July last year. See how it goes when the car is actually delivered (lead time 11 months for the time being).

Lou

[sms]

On 1/22/2023 3:05 PM, bob prohaska wrote:

I was involved when our city's garbage contractor was being renegotiated.

One of the big issues was that paper and plastics could no longer be
sold and exported to China for recycling.

There is no profitable arket for most of the plastics or paper since
it's cheaper to make new plastic and paper, though paper and cardboard
are still recycled into new paper and cardboard for other reasons.

Aluminum and glass are still actually being recycled but the plastic is
bundled up and stored. Aluminum recycling is profitable, glass recycling
is at about a break-even point, it will likely improve as uses are found
for pulverized glass but making new glass containers out of recycled
glass is not realistic.

While some people bemoan the end of returnable deposit glass bottles for
milk, soda, etc., the transport and cleaning of those bottles used
tremendous amounts of energy and water. You can still buy milk in
deposit bottles, but it's very expensive milk.

Tom is wrong of course™ regarding battery recycling for Li-Ion battery
packs used in things like electric vehicles.

[AMuzi]

> Manufacturers are so confident of the battery’s road use

> that most electric cars come with an extended warranty of
> eight years, or 100,000 miles.
>
> The battery will outlive the car...
>

> “The battery will outlive the car,†says Graeme Cooper
> confidently. “Today, most EV batteries have a life
> expectancy of 15 to 20 years within the car – and a second
> life beyond.â€
>
> https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/what-happens-old-electric-car-batteries
>
>

I don't know but there seem to be some complications here
and there:

https://insideevs.com/news/532818/tesla-battery-replacement-massive-savings/

https://www.speakev.com/threads/decision-time-repair-or-replace-battery-pack.174251/

[sms]

On 1/23/2023 6:22 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> I don't know but there seem to be some complications here and there:

The other complication is how manufacturer's warranty batteries and how
they manage charging.

An EV battery that has significantly reduced capacity is still
considered "good" by the vehicle manufacturer. Your range declines by a
significant amount but they never claim that the range when new will
continue for the life of the car. The typical 10 year warranty is great
for battery packs that fail catastrophically, but not much else. A
gasoline engine will give you pretty much the same MPG for the life of
the car.

"10 years" is no great achievement when it comes to new cars these days
since the average age of cars on the road is now over 12 years. Looking
at our vehicles, a 2001, 2014, and 2017, that is just about right for us
(37/3).

Also, the vehicle manufacturers are very conservative in battery
management, the battery capacity that is calculated by multiplying the
number of cells by the capacity of each cell is not what the battery is
charged up to, nor is the battery discharged to the minimum level that
prevents catastrophic battery damage, it's discharged to the level that
maximizes longevity.

I love seeing statements like "it will last the life of the car" for
_any_ component in any car. The reality is that the life of the car is
over when that component fails. I recall seeing these dumb claims in the
"timimg belt versus timing chain debates" with "timing chains last the
life of the car," until the timing chains started failing. I'd rather
have a component that needs periodic replacement due to wear than a
component with no scheduled maintenance that fails catastrophically.

What is true is that the cost of fuel and the cost of scheduled
maintenance is much lower for electric vehicles. It's also a lot more
convenient to fuel up overnight at home for most use (but not too
practical for long road trips). The total cost of ownership is higher,
at least for now. There's no reason why electric vehicles are so
expensive compared to ICE vehicles considering the cost of manufacturing
them. This cost is already starting to decline.

[Frank Krygowski]

There are "some complications here and there" for any physical
component. Give less importance to the extreme tail of the normal curve.
Give more importance to the peak.

I'm the guy whose steel tandem fork suddenly failed. That doesn't mean
nobody should ride a bike with a steel fork.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I hope you noticed that the Chinese Communist Party produced a "study" that claimed that natural gas was bad for the planet. This was entirely a lie but immediately our EPA said it was going to ban natural gas appliances.

That was one step too far for the EPA and they were forced to retract their statements although they did it with the usual "We are still looking into it."

This was followed by the Slime Stream Media claiming that there WAS NEVER an intent to ban natural gas EVEN THOUGH we have the recorded statements from the EPA and the claims in that study by the Chinese Communist Party. The talking heads said EXACTLY the same thing - there was never any plans to eliminate natural gas by the CCP through the EPA - it is all a ruse by the Republicans.

Each day the Democrats are becoming more and more dangerous. Are you aware that Biden has cut off all of the funding of the Coast Guard to stop illegals from Cuba and Haiti? This is yet another pathway for Chinese Fentanyl to enter this country.

That piece of shit Krygowski bemoans 20,000 gun deaths in the US last year that were 2/3rds suicides because of the Democrats destroying everyone's lives but says ZERO about the 100,000 Fentanyl deaths.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/23/2023 11:59 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> I hope you noticed that the Chinese Communist Party produced a "study" that claimed that natural gas was bad for the planet. This was entirely a lie but immediately our EPA said it was going to ban natural gas appliances.

Citation please? Or is that something you simply "remember"?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Very easily explained - the government offers money to a company to pick these batteries up. They are NOT recycled but are dumped in landfill because recycling cost 10 times as much as making new batteries. Leftists love to lie. Dumping this stuff properly isn't much of a problem but releasing Lithium into the open air is. Lithium is toxic in the human body and can kill you more slowly but as surely as cyanide.

[Tom Kunich]

There is a problem with recycling PET. It's only good for limited number of recyclings just like glass before it becomes discolored and people won't buy things in colored glass or plastic.

[Tom Kunich]

Electric vehicles just like ICE lose a lot of energy accelerating. Plus there is no waste heat to use to heat the interior of a car. So battery power is lost to heating. And that is surprisingly large. So while electric cars are a good idea in urban areas because of the lack of pollution, they are also more expensive than ICE. Krygowski will no doubt deny that but just think about it - how do you use some form of ICE to power generators to generate electricity - move it long distances and make several conversions and then charge batteries which is a poor efficiency rating - and have it cost less than the original ICE?

That anyone would proclaim there being no problem there means people are being paid off. As I pointed out, my electric bill which is largely created by natural gas generators is a tiny percentage of my gas bill.

[AMuzi]

Nearly everything humans can imagine is possible at some price.

https://www.digitalbuyer.com/vestil-48-l-recycled-plastic-car-stop.html

Assume a government program (boundless resource) to collect,
sort, process and finish the material and then (here's the
magic!) sell that product to government agencies or through
a government subsidy program. In that structure, a little
creative accounting can 'prove' it's 'highly efficient'.

[Roger Merriman]

EV are not more expensive around town, by a long shot, judging from Tesla’s
range calculator and well folks I know who have them, speed is what kills
range, urban if they don’t move they don’t run and so on and is born out by
folks experiences ie slow is good fast bad for range.

>
> That anyone would proclaim there being no problem there means people are
> being paid off. As I pointed out, my electric bill which is largely
> created by natural gas generators is a tiny percentage of my gas bill.
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

That is a great use for recycled plastic There are thousands of uses for recycled plastic but they still tend to recycle only clear plastic bottles. If they set a price for plastic by the ton rather than clear plastic with deposits on it there would probable entire companies formed for recycling plastics.

[Tom Kunich]

That's true from an aero drag point of view. But in urban surroundings there is continuous acceleration which is also bad for mileage.

[sms]

On 1/23/2023 12:03 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> EV are not more expensive around town, by a long shot, judging from Tesla’s
> range calculator and well folks I know who have them, speed is what kills
> range, urban if they don’t move they don’t run and so on and is born out by
> folks experiences ie slow is good fast bad for range.

Note that Tom is wrong of course™ regarding heaters in Tesla. While
there is an electric heater the cabin is also heated by the coolant used
to cool the batteries.

"The Energy Storage System is cooled through its own circuit of coolant
which utilizes a pump. This pump moves water and a glycol antifreeze
mixture around the Energy Storage System and into a separate compartment
that is located just behind the passenger door. This cooling system also
distributes heat through cells which allow for a consistent heating and
cooling experience throughout the vehicle cabin."

[Roger Merriman]

Even so it’s speed for various reasons that kills range, to be honest you
get that with ICE as well, in that off the motorways cross country type
routes extend the expected range.

Would you get better range at 20mph constant vs stop start probably but
considering how much torque even fairly low powered EV have they aren’t
working hard.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

> That is a great use for recycled plastic There are thousands of uses for recycled plastic but they still tend to recycle only clear plastic bottles. If they set a price for plastic by the ton rather than clear plastic with deposits on it there would probable entire companies formed for recycling plastics.
>

I don't know but finished products of recycled plastics come
in various colors:
https://discountplaygroundsupply.com/4-creekside-park-bench/

https://www.hideouthouse.com/more-school-playground-products-in-recycled-plastic/

https://www.plasteak.com/plasteak-recycled-plastic-product/8%E2%80%B2-recycled-plastic-elite-park-bench

[Roger Merriman]

Yup I think they are heat pumps, which though old tech is coming to homes,
and like that seems to be efficient if not powerful, vs resistive heating,
this said ice cars use heat pumps.

I note how quickly they start up and warm stuff or at least can do, mine is
Volvo so has impressive heating, in terms of how quickly it gets going plus
clears ice and so on from car.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

Here, Thailand, both colored and clear plastic has a value, i.e. you
can sell the empty bottles, so I assume that they are being recycled
and the colored plastic has, to my knowledge, been recycles for at
least 20 years.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

> That's true from an aero drag point of view. But in urban surroundings there is continuous acceleration which is also bad for mileage.

<sigh> Instead of "continuous acceleration," Tom probably meant frequent acceleration.
And it's not so much the acceleration that hurts gas mileage in an IC car; it's the deceleration,
during which the kinetic energy is lost. With Tom's car, that kinetic energy is wasted as
heat, mostly by the brakes. Brakes are devices that convert kinetic energy to heat.

EVs and hybrids regain most of that kinetic energy when they decelerate. I almost never
hear the scraping of the disc brakes on my EV. That's because most of the time I hit the
brakes (or the left braking paddle) the system causes the motor to act backwards as a
generator. The energy is captured as electricity used to recharge the battery. It's not lost.

- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Must be some losses so I assume if you drove at a similar speed but
constant to urban driving might be a touch more efficient, though unless
you drive for many miles in say lanes like around my parents ie narrow
tree/wall lined lanes so speeds are 20/30mph ie down to the village at
least.

But it’s real edge case stuff!

Always though my folks would be ideal for EV vehicles in terms of location
situation ie cars can be charged at home in fact considering how far they
drive probably don’t need to charge anywhere but home.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 9:15:04 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> But it’s real edge case stuff!
>
> Always though my folks would be ideal for EV vehicles in terms of location
> situation ie cars can be charged at home in fact considering how far they
> drive probably don’t need to charge anywhere but home.

Same here. My driving profile is ideal for an EV, I can charge at home and I have solar panels with a surplus of about 1500 kWh. Averaging (I assume) 20 kWh this is (1500/20)*100 = 7500 'free' km. That is about my anual mileage holidays excluded. When I go to the Alpes, lets say 800-1000 km one way I have to fast charge 3 times for half an hour.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

But you can refill your ICE to full range in minutes at any gas station. Your EV requires all night on slow charge and hours on a fast charger to get 2/3rds of a charge.

[Tom Kunich]

Scharf with all of his engineering knowledge thinks that those batteries heat up of their own volition.

[Lou Holtman]

How many miles do you ride normally (not the exceptions) on a day? An average EV has a battery of 50-60 kWh and here if you have a wall box (investment around 800 euro) you can charge your EV with 11 kW so you can charge your EV from 0 to 100 % in under 6 hours. Most people sleep at least 6 hours. However most people just have to top of the battery for say 10-20 kWh if you want a full batterie the next morning. This takes 1-2 hrs. Like I said you have to look at your driving profile to see if an EV is suitable for you. It seems that it is not for you and I have the idea that it is not because of you high daily mileage.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/24/2023 3:15 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 3:39:50 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>

>> ... And it's not so much the acceleration that hurts gas mileage in an IC

>> car; it's the deceleration,
>> during which the kinetic energy is lost. With Tom's car, that kinetic energy is wasted as
>> heat, mostly by the brakes. Brakes are devices that convert kinetic energy to heat.
>>
>> EVs and hybrids regain most of that kinetic energy when they decelerate. I almost never
>> hear the scraping of the disc brakes on my EV. That's because most of the time I hit the
>> brakes (or the left braking paddle) the system causes the motor to act backwards as a
>> generator. The energy is captured as electricity used to recharge the
>> battery. It's not lost.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
> Must be some losses so I assume if you drove at a similar speed but

> constant to urban driving might be a touch more efficient...

Yes, there are some losses. Second law of thermodynamics, etc.

> Always though my folks would be ideal for EV vehicles in terms of location
> situation ie cars can be charged at home in fact considering how far they
> drive probably don’t need to charge anywhere but home.

Except for one time just before I ran my 240V wiring, I've never had to
charge anywhere but at home. That's despite frequent drives of 100 - 120
miles round trip. This car is meeting our needs very well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/24/2023 10:11 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> But you can refill your ICE to full range in minutes at any gas station. Your EV requires all night on slow charge and hours on a fast charger to get 2/3rds of a charge.

My EV generally gets plugged in when it's down to ~75 miles. It reaches
100% in perhaps 7 or 8 hours. This works fine, since I plug it in, if
needed, when I park it for the evening. The car actually emails me when
it's topped up - not that I notice until the next morning.

If I were worried about counting minutes, I'd note that I'm ahead
compared to stopping at gas stations. It takes perhaps 30 seconds to
plug in or unplug. The charging happens when I'm comfortable inside my home.

If I were taking cross country trips, the story would be different. I'd
have to get a snack or something while electricity flowed into the
battery from a public charging system. People who do such trips
frequently are probably better served with a PHEV. But for our use, this
car is doing great.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/24/2023 11:11 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Like I said you have to look at your driving profile to see if an EV is suitable for you. It seems that it is not for you and I have the idea that it is not because of you high daily mileage.

I doubt very much that Tom's daily driving mileage precludes EV use.

An EV is not for Tom because it conflicts with his political views.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

It’s generally quoted as 30/40mins to reach 80% and by folks I know.

The speed isn’t personally the issue with charging, it’s every thing
needing a different app, and well not being where I am.

Even when I’ve done big long distances ie cross countries the speed of
charging wouldn’t of been a issue. As well did stop at places that had my
car been a EV could of plugged in.

And I didn’t drive until empty and then keep driving, the distance per day
where well below that.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

My folks probably do just over 100 miles reasonably regularly this said
they pass two services so would be able to charge if they needed to which
is unlikely.

My issue bar cost and value as such, is mainly charging in that I don’t
have off street parking, and would need a car with at least equivalent
motorway range so I could charge as I get a coffee at the services all
services seem to have chargers, in the uk at least.

Roger Merriman

[sms]

Most EV owners rarely use public chargers, they charge at home. Yet
there's a constant clamoring for more public chargers to be available
for people to use when on long road trips.

The companies putting in chargers complain that the demand that was
expected never materialized and that they haven't been able to have a
positive ROI. I know a LOT of people with Teslas and only four that
don't have solar on their roof and only one that uses a public charger
because he's an early owner that got lifetime free charging from Tesla
chargers.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:09:51 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>There is a problem with recycling PET. It's only good for limited number of recyclings just like glass before it becomes discolored and people won't buy things in colored glass or plastic.

Americans like to see food before they buy resulting in clear being
the favored "color" for food products. For everything else, colored
plastic packaging are fine.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=products+from+recycled+plastic&tbm=isch>
The real limit to re-using plastic is that recycled plastics tend to
be brittle. Manufacturers add raw feed stock to soften the mix.

"Recycled plastic "will soon be the only choice""
<https://www.dezeen.com/2018/02/02/recycled-plastic-only-choice-say-designers/>

In case you haven't noticed the increased use of structural plastic
lumber for construction:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=structural+recycled+plastic+lumber>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=structural+recycled+plastic+lumber&tbm=isch>

This one is interesting.
<https://www.miuraboard.com/wood-alternative-products/>
50% recycled plastics and 50% recycled carpeting.

The more common Trex decking is 50% recycled plastic film and 50% wood
fiber.
<https://www.trex.com/why-trex/composite-vs-plastic-decking/>



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Roger Merriman]

At the moment it’s low hanging fruit as you where, EV owners are generally
more affluent and hence more likely to have home charging, but there is a
significant % who don’t have off street parking.

Plus to do longer trips away from home chargers are needed as not every
hotel etc will have them. The argument for them like uk at every service is
weaker, but then I never fuel up my car at those either so clearly not that
demographic!

I guess like the bike lane argument ie build it they will come, the devil
is in the details!

Roger Merriman