Re: Bicycles and Roundabouts.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/24/2021 4:26 PM, pH wrote:
> A cyclist's family is filing suit after a May (I think) fatal accident in
> Lafayette, CA.
>
> http://www.wintercyclingblog.org/2021/10/23/legal-claim-filed-against-lafayette-over-cyclists-death-at-controversial-roundabout-the-mercury-news/
>
> Roudabouts seem like a busy one would be very hard to negotiate, given that
> a lot of motorists already seem to be having trouble with them.
>
> I know I've seen one in Napa, CA that I would not care to try, it's so busy.
>
> Do they have these in Portland, J. Beattie?
>
> Has anyone tried them?
>
> pH in Aptos

We have two relatively new roundabouts within about five miles of our
home, and another new one within ten miles. These are all single lane
versions. I've also ridden quite a few of them in France.

So far, I've had no trouble using them and no close calls, but one must
be assertive. Of course, I absolutely take the lane approaching the
roundabout and within the roundabout. And a few times, when I was in the
circle and a motorist seemed to approach too fast, I've held out my
hand, palm facing the driver in a traffic cop "stop" signal. They've
always yielded.

I think with that kind of behavior a roundabout is safer than the
alternatives - stop signs or traffic lights. They're certainly more
convenient.

I'm much more skeptical of roundabouts with two lanes in the circle.
I've read and believe that they are much more dangerous for cyclists.
And I feel the same about roundabouts that contain bike lanes within the
circle. Those are just nuts. They tell the cyclist to ride off to the
right where drivers will lose track of them and do right hooks or
pull-outs.

[I've added r.b.tech. I know Andrew doesn't like roundabouts, so I'm
giving him a chance to respond.]

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

We have lots of round a bouts around me. All of them are the two lane kind. One inner lane for those going 3/4 of the way around and an outer lane for those only going 1/4 or 1/2 way around. I always stay in the outer lane. And have managed to get around them just fine. But most of the ones I ride are not 100% jam packed with cars bumper to bumper. They are all in residential areas.

[pH]

On 2021-10-25, Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/24/2021 4:26 PM, pH wrote:
>> A cyclist's family is filing suit after a May (I think) fatal accident in
>> Lafayette, CA.
>>
>> http://www.wintercyclingblog.org/2021/10/23/legal-claim-filed-against-lafayette-over-cyclists-death-at-controversial-roundabout-the-mercury-news/
>>
>> Roudabouts seem like a busy one would be very hard to negotiate, given that
>> a lot of motorists already seem to be having trouble with them.
>>
>> I know I've seen one in Napa, CA that I would not care to try, it's so busy.
>>
>> Do they have these in Portland, J. Beattie?
>>
>> Has anyone tried them?
>>
>> pH in Aptos
>
> We have two relatively new roundabouts within about five miles of our
> home, and another new one within ten miles. These are all single lane
> versions. I've also ridden quite a few of them in France.
>

I had thought from your previous posts that you might live in Arizona, but
now I think it may be Ohio (not that it really matters, I suppose).

> So far, I've had no trouble using them and no close calls, but one must
> be assertive. Of course, I absolutely take the lane approaching the
> roundabout and within the roundabout. And a few times, when I was in the
> circle and a motorist seemed to approach too fast, I've held out my
> hand, palm facing the driver in a traffic cop "stop" signal. They've
> always yielded.
>
> I think with that kind of behavior a roundabout is safer than the
> alternatives - stop signs or traffic lights. They're certainly more
> convenient.
>
> I'm much more skeptical of roundabouts with two lanes in the circle.
> I've read and believe that they are much more dangerous for cyclists.
> And I feel the same about roundabouts that contain bike lanes within the
> circle. Those are just nuts. They tell the cyclist to ride off to the
> right where drivers will lose track of them and do right hooks or
> pull-outs.

The busy one in Napa that I'm hesitant to try is a two concentric circle
variety...as is the one in Santa Cruz I'm thinking of.
The Santa Cruz one is more negeotiable seeming as it's a smaller scale and
slower traffic. I've yet to try it but try to avoid going to town whenever
I can, anyway.

>
> [I've added r.b.tech. I know Andrew doesn't like roundabouts, so I'm
> giving him a chance to respond.]
>

I thought about starting in .tech, but thought I'd try to be "proper". I'll
be curious to see if he comments.

pH

[AMuzi]

I have nothing good to say about them. They're a creative
combination of antipersonnel devices in an oversized meat
grinder for vehicles. Riding a half mile or a mile extra to
avoid them is my personal solution.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Lou Holtman]

I think my town is the capital of small roundabouts. My conclusion is that they are not in the best interest of the safety of cyclists. You definitely have to take the lane. sometimes this is not possible. This is a really stupid one I have to take regularly:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/F1TBeNuBuLQZ7ACF7


Lou

[Tom Kunich]

In order to reduce the cost of signal maintenance (very BAD response to bicycles) they are removing more and more signals and replacing them with roundabouts. I have no problem with them.

[Tom Kunich]

I think that ANY uncontrolled intersection on a fast road is dangerous. But on a road I can ride at 28 mph put in roundabouts, it slowed the normal car traffic right down The trick is ti keep the diameter down to the point that cars are forced to reduce their speed.

[Ted Heise]

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT),
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 9:39:36 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, October 25, 2021 at 3:23:56 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 10/24/2021 4:26 PM, pH wrote:
> > > > A cyclist's family is filing suit after a May (I think)
> > > > fatal accident in Lafayette, CA.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.wintercyclingblog.org/2021/10/23/legal-claim-filed-against-lafayette-over-cyclists-death-at-controversial-roundabout-the-mercury-news/
> > > >
> > > > Roudabouts seem like a busy one would be very hard to
> > > > negotiate, given that a lot of motorists already seem to
> > > > be having trouble with them.

> > > > Has anyone tried them?

> > > We have two relatively new roundabouts within about five
> > > miles of our home, and another new one within ten miles.
> > > These are all single lane versions. I've also ridden quite a
> > > few of them in France.
> > >
> > > So far, I've had no trouble using them and no close calls,
> > > but one must be assertive. Of course, I absolutely take the
> > > lane approaching the roundabout and within the roundabout.
> > > And a few times, when I was in the circle and a motorist
> > > seemed to approach too fast, I've held out my hand, palm
> > > facing the driver in a traffic cop "stop" signal. They've
> > > always yielded.
> > >
> > > I think with that kind of behavior a roundabout is safer
> > > than the alternatives - stop signs or traffic lights.
> > > They're certainly more convenient.
> > >
> > > I'm much more skeptical of roundabouts with two lanes in the
> > > circle. I've read and believe that they are much more
> > > dangerous for cyclists. And I feel the same about
> > > roundabouts that contain bike lanes within the circle. Those
> > > are just nuts. They tell the cyclist to ride off to the
> > > right where drivers will lose track of them and do right
> > > hooks or pull-outs.

> > I think my town is the capital of small roundabouts. My
> > conclusion is that they are not in the best interest of the
> > safety of cyclists. You definitely have to take the lane.
> > sometimes this is not possible. This is a really stupid one I
> > have to take regularly:
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/F1TBeNuBuLQZ7ACF7

> I think that ANY uncontrolled intersection on a fast road is
> dangerous. But on a road I can ride at 28 mph put in
> roundabouts, it slowed the normal car traffic right down The
> trick is ti keep the diameter down to the point that cars are
> forced to reduce their speed.

We have a couple of the one lane type within a mile or two of
home. Finishing any ride on a tandem, we usually take a "victory
lap" (i.e., a full loop on top of the shortest way through) when
coming in. They are tight enough that it takes some careful
steering.

I've only had a driver cut in front of me once, and it was close
enough that catching the draft was pretty simple.

We have a two-lane circle on the other side of town that is worse
than need be because the lane markings don't match the signage
ahead of the circle. So drivers often have to change lanes at the
last minute. It's dicey.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Tom Kunich]

In the Tierra Bella century, there used to be a series of lights that ALWAYS stopped a bike and wouldn't trigger on a bike so that you had to wait for an car going your way. There was enough traffic that it wasn't much of a problem but it was directly at the end of the century so all of that stop and go would kill you. Last time I did that they have removed the lights and installed roundabouts and what a hell of a lot easier ending to that century. I was in good enough shape to have the end of the ride meal.

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:31:02 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> I have nothing good to say about them. They're a creative
> combination of antipersonnel devices in an oversized meat
> grinder for vehicles. Riding a half mile or a mile extra to
> avoid them is my personal solution.

By some miracle, roundabouts around here are designed by traffic
engineers, as witnessed by the "yield" signs in place of the city
fathers' beloved stop signs in places that teach drivers to ignore
stop signs.

The roundabouts work quite well -- though the first time I went
through our first roundabout, I pulled off the road and studied it for
a while before daring to enter. Another bewilderment happened a few
years later when I happened to have reason to drive out that way, but
I just followed the arrows and came out the other side.

When the roundabouts were first proposed, some folks worried about
drivers learning "the special rules of roundabouts". ??? The rules
in roundabouts are exactly the same as the rules everywhere else:
Traffic already in the roundabout has priority over traffic that
wishes to enter the roundabout, and a vehicle already in the
roundabout keeps going until it comes to the desired turn.

I haven't seen the newest roundabout at 255 E and Pierceton Road yet.
I dislike Pierceton because it has exactly the sour amount of traffic:
sparse enough that one has to signal to every car that comes along
that one has seen it, but not so sparse that one ever gets a rest
between signals. Rumor has it that the roundabout is all done; there
was a warning out a week or two ago that traffic would be seriously
backed up while they completed the landscaping. (I hope it doen't
inclued tall bushes in the circle; that's my only complaint about the
older roundabouts.)

So every time I turn left at the intersection of Winona Avenue,
Argonne Road, King's Highway, and Park Avenue, with the Argonne
traffic suddenly appearing out of a tunnel, I yell "come on
roundabout!" (We are finally next on the priority list.)

But if you want to explain to me how a two-lane roundabout is even
possible, you are going to have to use very short words and lots and
lots and lots of pictures.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Sir Ridesalot]

Waterloo Region in Ontario, Canada has a real love affair with small roundabouts. They're trying to put one in every major intersection. What makes them interesting for bicyclists is that the roundabouts aren't all the same in that one roundabout will have the right lane as a through lane or right turn lane but not a left turn lane whilst the very next roundabout will have that same lane with a left turn capability. These roundabouts are small and it'd be very nice to be able to see over them to tell whether there was another vehicle already in the roundabout coming towards you. Alas, the Region thinks that the mounds in these roundabouts should have tall landscaping on them so you can NOT see over them. Add to that that many motorists don't realize that they're supposed to yield to vehicles including bicycles already in t he roundabout and you have very interesting times if riding a bicycle in them.

Cheers

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 26.10.2021 um 06:35 schrieb Joy Beeson:
> On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 08:31:02 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> I have nothing good to say about them. They're a creative
>> combination of antipersonnel devices in an oversized meat
>> grinder for vehicles. Riding a half mile or a mile extra to
>> avoid them is my personal solution.
>
> By some miracle, roundabouts around here are designed by traffic
> engineers, as witnessed by the "yield" signs in place of the city
> fathers' beloved stop signs in places that teach drivers to ignore
> stop signs.
>

> Rumor has it that the roundabout is all done; there
> was a warning out a week or two ago that traffic would be seriously
> backed up while they completed the landscaping. (I hope it doen't
> inclued tall bushes in the circle; that's my only complaint about the
> older roundabouts.)

The safety engineers know that the key safety design element on traffic
circles is vehicle speed. You wish to ensure that the sight lines are
such that
a) approaching vehicles don't see too early whether they need to stop,
so that they slow down to < 20 mph
b) vehicles entering the circle see perfectly well whether it's safe to
enter.

Combining these two, tall bushes in the middle of the circle are a
safety feature.

Rolf

[Rolf Mantel]

> Waterloo Region in Ontario, Canada has a real love affair with small
> roundabouts. They're trying to put one in every major intersection.
> What makes them interesting for bicyclists is that the roundabouts
> aren't all the same in that one roundabout will have the right lane
> as a through lane or right turn lane but not a left turn lane whilst
> the very next roundabout will have that same lane with a left turn
> capability.

"Small roundaouts" are one-lane roundabouts that guarantee "no
overtaking". Multi-lane roundabouts (including your two-lane
roundabouts) are a lot more dangrous to cyclists than one-lane
roundabouts because some cyclists stay on the right even for left turns
and some car drivers feel the need to overtake a bicycle in the
roundabout even before turning right.

On multi-lane roundabouts the safe "bicycle left turn" is to pull to the
center curb when entering, have cars overtake on the right and then dive
out at your exit.

[Tim R]

The ones in Germany scared me as a US auto driver. Multiple lanes, bikes on the outside and hard to see, and bikes had right of way. If you hit a bike you were going to jail.

I dreaded that one in Wuerzburg. But I couldn't even attempt the one in Frankfurt with four lanes, and connecting to another four lane one.

[Tom Kunich]

Seems to me that when I was in Paris, they used the center of the traffic circle to place statues and the like limiting the view as well as the speeds,

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2021 12:35 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>
> ... But if you want to explain to me how a two-lane roundabout is even

> possible, you are going to have to use very short words and lots and
> lots and lots of pictures.

I'm very skeptical about two lane roundabouts. I've encountered only
one, about an hour's drive from here, and I've used it only when
motoring. I was going straight through (so to speak) and stayed in the
outer lane.

Perhaps the inner lane is for passing when there's a backup stopping
traffic in the outer lane? I don't know.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/26/2021 8:57 AM, Tim R wrote:
> The ones in Germany scared me as a US auto driver. Multiple lanes, bikes on the outside and hard to see, and bikes had right of way. If you hit a bike you were going to jail.

Well, that last part is good!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

In the UK, multi-lane roundabouts are the most common "high-speed" (say
40 mph on the straight leg) traffic junctions to save some money where
every sane person would build an overpass (plus simple traffic lights)
instead.

The "classic two-lane roundabout" similar to
<https://goo.gl/maps/E9virNeyxTUye6zW8>
also has two approach lanes on each side, the right lane for "right or
straight", the left lane for "left or straight" plus two-lane exit at
each exit (this picture shows that you can add additional "bypass lanes"
for "turn at first exit" to increase capacity without breaking the base
design).

The driving rules are:
1) entering from the right lane you join the right lane of the
roundabout, entering on the left lane you join the left lane of the
roundabout. On entering you yield to potentially conflicting traffic.
2) on the "outside" lane (left in UK, right in US) you go at most two exits.
3) on the "inside" lane (right in UK, left in US) you go at least two exits
4) you do not change lane when exiting (i.e. outside lane in roundabout
goes to outside lane of road, inside lane of roundabout goes to inside
lane of road).

Really insane "multi-lane roundabouts"
https://goo.gl/maps/ar1eYG7VJkNpR2aa7
have directional lane markings. Typically the entry routes have a
similar number of lanes as the roundabout lanes while the exit lanes
only have two lanes.
At this type of roundabout, the lane markings are not concentric but
lead to a certain exit. This specific roundabout is additionally
traffic-light controlled at peak hours.

In the 1990's, I had to cycle through that roundabout for 40% of my
"sunday trips" (everything heading south); I see that now there is a
parallel bicylce bridge over the motorway allowing today's cyclists to
avoid that hellhole completely.

Rolf

[sms]

On 10/26/2021 8:36 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 26.10.2021 um 16:59 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>> On 10/26/2021 12:35 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>
>>> ... But if you want to explain to me how a two-lane roundabout is
>>> even possible, you are going to have to use very short words and lots
>>> and lots and lots of pictures.
>>
>> I'm very skeptical about two lane roundabouts. I've encountered only
>> one, about an hour's drive from here, and I've used it only when
>> motoring. I was going straight through (so to speak) and stayed in the
>> outer lane.
>>
>> Perhaps the inner lane is for passing when there's a backup stopping
>> traffic in the outer lane? I don't know.
>
> In the UK, multi-lane roundabouts are the most common "high-speed" (say
> 40 mph on the straight leg) traffic junctions to save some money where
> every sane person would build an overpass (plus simple traffic lights)
> instead.

At least any sane person with £50 million or so to spend.

[Duane]

Limiting the motorist’s view of me on my bike as he’s speeding around the
turn? Please stop trying to protect me…

[Duane]

+1 except what is a left turn on a rotary?

[AMuzi]

> Limiting the motorist’s view of me on my bike as he’s speeding around the
> turn? Please stop trying to protect me…
>
+1

[Tom Kunich]

Traffic lights aren't inexpensive. Around here they are a constant maintenance problem though that is changing a bit as they put in LED lights. But the in-ground loops only work properly for the first month or so, why that would be is beyond me. I could design a triggering mechanism that would be set once and never change but now I seldom see a loop that will trigger for a bicycle so on busy streets you're forced to wait for a car wanting to go the same direction as you. On a better note, they are now installing artificial intelligence traffic detectors that user a video detector. What the reliability of those remains to be seen but they can determine a bike is there.

The trouble with bike overpasses is that they are so expensive you can hardly believe it. At about half the expense of a car/truck overpass they simply aren't worthy it and often the real problem is getting the bike/pedestrian up because there is usually limited lead up space on either side.

[Tom Kunich]

What makes roundabouts safer than lights is that you turn onto the street you want by always making a right (or in Britain; left) turn, So you always exit in your lane.

[NFN Smith]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> I'm very skeptical about two lane roundabouts. I've encountered only
> one, about an hour's drive from here, and I've used it only when
> motoring. I was going straight through (so to speak) and stayed in the
> outer lane.
>
> Perhaps the inner lane is for passing when there's a backup stopping
> traffic in the outer lane? I don't know.

I've actually driven a 3-lane round-about. This was in a country that
drives on the right side of the road. It takes a little getting used to
(and I never saw it in high-volume traffic), but if you're in the left
lane, you stay in the left lane, and all the way to the inner lane in
the roundabout, and then stay in that lane coming out.

Yes, you're crossing lanes of traffic, and I've forgotten the exact
technique for doing it (especially if you're trying to exit from an
inner lane, and the driver next to you in an outer lane wants to keep
going), but it does work, and surprisingly better than seems intuitively
possible. I think part of it is a combination of traffic not going
especially fast, and that there's a lot more staggering of traffic (and
spaces for merging and cross-overs) than you would assume.

In the UK, I've seen a number of roundabouts in urban areas with heavy
traffic that have signal lights, where you don't enter until you get a
green light. The timing on the lights is such to allow the roundabout
to (mostly clear) before new traffic is admitted, including that they
don't allow for turn on red, either. This is especially the case with
roundabouts that aren't truly round, but more ovals or rectangles that
may be longer and narrower than the stereotypical "roundabout".

No, I haven't tried to navigate any of those on a bicycle.

Smith

[John B.]

On Tue, 26 Oct 2021 17:01:39 -0700, NFN Smith <worldo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

We have one here in Bangkok with 5 roads entering, bus stops on two
sides, and "as many as can squeeze in" lanes. Approaching even if not
driving it appears sheer chaos but somehow the cars and busses seem to
get around with minimum problems.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[jbeattie]

Bend, Oregon has a crazy amount of roundabouts. https://thebroadsideonline.com/2021/01/bends-roundabout-obsession-photo-gallery/ Its like a roundabout salesman hornswoggled the townsfolk. "Yes, siree, folks, you need a roundabout . . . and a monorail!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM&ab_channel=saveourspit

-- Jay Beattie.

[sms]

On 10/26/2021 5:01 PM, NFN Smith wrote:

<snip>

> Yes, you're crossing lanes of traffic, and I've forgotten the exact
> technique for doing it (especially if you're trying to exit from an
> inner lane, and the driver next to you in an outer lane wants to keep
> going), but it does work, and surprisingly better than seems intuitively
> possible.  I think part of it is a combination of traffic not going
> especially fast, and that there's a lot more staggering of traffic (and
> spaces for merging and cross-overs) than you would assume.

We had multi-lane roundabouts in the city I grew up in, for two major
roads with three lanes in each direction, but also two other minor
streets. For locals, they learned how to use them, with all the weaving,
but it wasn't a stress-free experience. For tourists, and we had a lot
of tourists, it was confusing, including some drivers that would try to
go clockwise instead of counter-clockwise.

Now they are talking about turning the current one-way traffic circle
into "the world's largest two-way traffic circle," with predictions
about it actually working ranging from 25% to 100% (100% is from the
designer).

"The new plan calls for two-way traffic, with cars in the outer lanes
traveling counterclockwise as they do now and cars in the innermost
lanes moving in a clockwise direction." Maybe they could put some
two-way protected bike lanes in the middle (being sarcastic). They can't
get rid of the circle, it's a large circle with a park in the center and
it's been there for nearly 100 year and it has eight places to enter and
exit the circle.

[Sir Ridesalot]

+1

Cheers

[AMuzi]

On 10/26/2021 9:55 PM, sms wrote:
> On 10/26/2021 5:01 PM, NFN Smith wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Yes, you're crossing lanes of traffic, and I've forgotten
>> the exact technique for doing it (especially if you're
>> trying to exit from an inner lane, and the driver next to
>> you in an outer lane wants to keep going), but it does
>> work, and surprisingly better than seems intuitively

>> possible. I think part of it is a combination of traffic

>> not going especially fast, and that there's a lot more
>> staggering of traffic (and spaces for merging and
>> cross-overs) than you would assume.
>
> We had multi-lane roundabouts in the city I grew up in, for
> two major roads with three lanes in each direction, but also
> two other minor streets. For locals, they learned how to use
> them, with all the weaving, but it wasn't a stress-free
> experience. For tourists, and we had a lot of tourists, it
> was confusing, including some drivers that would try to go
> clockwise instead of counter-clockwise.
>
> Now they are talking about turning the current one-way
> traffic circle into "the world's largest two-way traffic
> circle," with predictions about it actually working ranging
> from 25% to 100% (100% is from the designer).
>
> "The new plan calls for two-way traffic, with cars in the
> outer lanes traveling counterclockwise as they do now and
> cars in the innermost lanes moving in a clockwise
> direction." Maybe they could put some two-way protected bike
> lanes in the middle (being sarcastic). They can't get rid of
> the circle, it's a large circle with a park in the center
> and it's been there for nearly 100 year and it has eight
> places to enter and exit the circle.
>
>

The more efficient way to that goal is a figure-8 course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej3kLPZHFYE