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[OT] engineer comments please

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AMuzi

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May 13, 2021, 10:03:54 PM5/13/21
to
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html

Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:

:...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of
two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "

900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]

Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Sir Ridesalot

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May 13, 2021, 10:59:47 PM5/13/21
to
I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks like a break. One side is higher than the other.

Cheers

John B.

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May 13, 2021, 11:09:50 PM5/13/21
to
On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>
>Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>
>:...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of
>two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>
>900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>
>Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?

And even more difficulty - transporting the thing :-) A 900 ft.
trailer "

But the photo shows a very large plate apparently bolted (I can see
hex heads) to the left of the break which is likely a doubler over the
splice between two sections of the beam.

Just another example of writers who know not of what they write :-)

But then Jack Higgins, as well as several other authors, refers to the
"Slider" on the top of a Walther PPK :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Mark J.

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May 13, 2021, 11:24:45 PM5/13/21
to
Yup, but CNN and I think others referred to this break repeatedly as a
"crack." What's the engineering equivalent of illiteracy and innumeracy?

Mark J.

AMuzi

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May 14, 2021, 8:31:12 AM5/14/21
to
On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>
>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>
>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture†in one of
>> two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>>
>> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>
>> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks like a break. One side is higher than the other.
>
> Cheers
>

Good observation.
Still and all how does one make a 900-ft steel object? Even
ship keels are many pieces.

Rolf Mantel

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May 14, 2021, 8:56:00 AM5/14/21
to
Am 14.05.2021 um 14:31 schrieb AMuzi:
> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>
>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture†in one of
>>> two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>>>
>>> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>>
>>> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>>> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>>
>>
>> I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks
>> like a break. One side is higher than the other.
>
> Good observation.
> Still and all how does one make a 900-ft steel object? Even ship keels
> are many pieces.

Here, it might be necessary to dive deep into the engineering
terminology: Does a "beam" in bridge building necessarily have the
proberty of being one continuous piece of metal, or is the bridge
builder's "beam" only restricted to the meaning 'carries the forces of
the road in a certain way', in contrast to a "frame"?

As I never took any Engieering courses, I don't know the answer to this one.


News 2021

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May 14, 2021, 9:01:03 AM5/14/21
to
On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi scribed:

> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-
arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>
> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>
> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of two 900-foot
> horizontal steel beams. "
>
> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>
> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?

Caveat as I can not seem the images, but yes, you can 'construct' a
'beam' to what ever length you can manage.

Bridges are commonly constructed with supports made from sections of
"box beams" which are constructed from other lengths of 'steel'. Heck,
they even make them out of concrete these days.

News 2021

unread,
May 14, 2021, 9:06:07 AM5/14/21
to
On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi scribed:

> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-
arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>
>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>
>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of two 900-foot
>>> horizontal steel beams. "
>>>
>>> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>>
>>> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>>> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks
>> like a break. One side is higher than the other.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
> Good observation.
> Still and all how does one make a 900-ft steel object? Even ship keels
> are many pieces.

Basically the same method, except these days they can build those in
parts and ship them to the final assembly ship yard. Hint, there are some
ewe tube stuff showing 'cut and insert' jobs to lengthen cruise ship.

Something sort of related; to ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM

News 2021

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May 14, 2021, 9:08:22 AM5/14/21
to
On Fri, 14 May 2021 10:09:37 +0700, John B. scribed:

> On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-
arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>
>>Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>
>>:...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of two 900-foot
>>horizontal steel beams. "
>>
>>900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>
>>Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>>otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>
> And even more difficulty - transporting the thing :-) A 900 ft. trailer

Easy if it came by sea.
Otherwise, you just join short sections.
> "
>
> But the photo shows a very large plate apparently bolted (I can see hex
> heads) to the left of the break which is likely a doubler over the
> splice between two sections of the beam.
>
> Just another example of writers who know not of what they write :-)
>
> But then Jack Higgins, as well as several other authors, refers to the
> "Slider" on the top of a Walther PPK :-)

Oh, we just love playing spot the howler in movies.

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 9:48:13 AM5/14/21
to
Most people that had half a brain would know that most steel mills take a lot of water and are situated on or near water supplies. They would also know that since that bridge goes over a river that a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams via barges. It would never even occur to a normal brain that someone would move something like that on a road.

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 9:56:59 AM5/14/21
to
Well. at least Frank has his picture of classic metal fatigue. These sorts of cracks in structural members invariably start at micro inclusions. This bridge has been there for 50 years meaning it was erected in 1970. This was luckily before Chinese steel was used and after the very high quality of steel production after WW II had begun to wain. They are just now replacing rivets on the Golden Gate Bridge. The steel structural members on the Oakland-San Francisco Bay Bridge which Jerry Brown received billions in kickbacks from the Chinese, have all failed already and the bridge is now supported only by the suspension cables which were not properly sealed and have begun to rust.

Lou Holtman

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May 14, 2021, 10:27:42 AM5/14/21
to
Op vrijdag 14 mei 2021 om 15:48:13 UTC+2 schreef cycl...@gmail.com:
They moved a bridge through Rotterdam last week. It will be a temporary bridge during the maintenance of the main bridge. It will be put in place tonight IIRC. Look at the video. Impressive. Boy, we are good here in the Netherlands with this kind of stuff ;-)

https://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/wegen/projectenoverzicht/a15-renovatie-en-nieuwbouw-suurhoffbrug/transport-en-invaren-tijdelijke-suurhoffbrug

Lou

Frank Krygowski

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May 14, 2021, 10:36:34 AM5/14/21
to
On 5/13/2021 10:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>
>
> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>
> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of two 900-foot
> horizontal steel beams. "
>
> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>
> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'? otherwise how can
> a 900 foot beam be made at all?

I don't think "beam" has to imply "continuous." But I suppose whether or
not it ever implies that would depend on context. And in this case,
we're reading what a reporter wrote, so we shouldn't expect precise
technical language.

But for a similar situation, I don't think anyone would object to a
description of a 100 foot guardrail along a roadway, even though such a
thing would be assembled out of 20 foot sections.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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May 14, 2021, 10:44:00 AM5/14/21
to
On 5/14/2021 9:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Most people that had half a brain would know that most steel mills take a lot of water and are situated on or near water supplies. They would also know that since that bridge goes over a river that a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams via barges. It would never even occur to a normal brain that someone would move something like that on a road.

<sigh>

Aside from the fact that nobody shipped a 900 foot beam - here's a local
steel mill:

https://goo.gl/maps/5PQ4P9WSDTpVuhpE7

That's one of many that used to exist upstream and down.

Barges never shipped steel on that river.

--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie

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May 14, 2021, 10:45:23 AM5/14/21
to
Pffff. Old news. http://utcdb.fiu.edu/bridgeitem?id=242 Center span of the Freemont bridge being lifted into place which, at the time, was the heaviest lift in history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Bridge_(Portland,_Oregon)#:~:text=On%20March%2016%2C%201973%2C%20the,the%20heaviest%20lift%20ever%20completed.

And no, it is not a continuous beam center span but rather a collection of panels that were assembled on Swan Island and barged into place. .

Now, this bridge carries more cyclists than the entire population of NL! https://media.chatterblock.com/files/activities_images/providence-bridge-pedal-None-000f7c.png Take that you Gazelle riding low-landers!

-- Jay Beattie.

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 10:59:47 AM5/14/21
to
What river Frank? The Mississippi? Tell me how no one ever made 900 foot sections of pipe, or plate. Tell me all about the keels laid down for superclass battleships which were mostly on the East Coast shipyards?

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 11:06:16 AM5/14/21
to
Panels can be very long because welds or riveting them together makes a weak area. Today they often think that steel reinforced concrete is lower maintenance. Well, I won't have to be around to hear the wailing when they discover different. https://seaonc-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/2018/05/Bay-Bridge-1.jpg

Jeff Liebermann

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May 14, 2021, 11:11:43 AM5/14/21
to
On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>
>Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>
>:...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of
>two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>
>900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>
>Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?

A beam is also called a girder. It's not one piece. The sections of
the girder are held together by a riveted gusset plate:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusset_plate>
<https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/infrastructure/structures/bridge/14063/index.cfm>

Better view of the bridge:
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HernandoDeSoto_Bridge_Pyramid.jpg>
The full size image is 9.4MBytes.
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/HernandoDeSoto_Bridge_Pyramid.jpg>
The break is just to the right of the center of the "M" and is NOT
visible in this photo from May 2015.

Blurry photo copy of the bridge plans showing location of the break:
<https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/05/12/PMCA/0a83a784-bcbf-4aeb-8e37-e45b859086c0-184312076_10157954560002551_2116540412691028081_n.jpg>




--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski

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May 14, 2021, 11:46:16 AM5/14/21
to
On 5/14/2021 10:59 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:44:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/14/2021 9:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Most people that had half a brain would know that most steel mills take a lot of water and are situated on or near water supplies. They would also know that since that bridge goes over a river that a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams via barges. It would never even occur to a normal brain that someone would move something like that on a road.
>> <sigh>
>>
>> Aside from the fact that nobody shipped a 900 foot beam - here's a local
>> steel mill:
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/5PQ4P9WSDTpVuhpE7
>>
>> That's one of many that used to exist upstream and down.
>>
>> Barges never shipped steel on that river.
>
> What river Frank? The Mississippi?

No, the one in the photograph I linked. The presence of a river does NOT
imply that "a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams
via barges" as you claimed.

Yes, I know, I've got to stop pointing out your many mistakes. I try to
ignore all but the ones about which I have some specialized knowledge.

I'll try to do better, but you spout so much nonsense that it's
difficult to resist.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Lou Holtman

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May 14, 2021, 12:27:26 PM5/14/21
to
Op vrijdag 14 mei 2021 om 16:45:23 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:27:42 AM UTC-7, lou.h...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Now, this bridge carries more cyclists than the entire population of NL! https://media.chatterblock.com/files/activities_images/providence-bridge-pedal-None-000f7c.png Take that you Gazelle riding low-landers!
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

Ha, Strava calculated 57 m of elevation for my gravel ride along the windmills (under construction):
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nTkSksamMBCU3kEo8

along the canals:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jzhBS8yFRBJ9LaKb9

and the wet lands:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HcqamWsFaUzsLdr68

and I enjoyed every km of it on my titanium gravel bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vf4RAy9BvRJkTSq17

Good luck with your busy 4 lane bridge.

Lou

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 12:56:44 PM5/14/21
to
And I will not stop pointing out that you have no fucking idea what they moved on that river and what they did not. Virtually ALL movement of goods before the 1940's was via water or railroads but you're going to tell us that the history of this world is entirely different than it was. Sure you moron, tell us more.

jbeattie

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May 14, 2021, 3:40:20 PM5/14/21
to
What is your review of the Moots? Is it magical?

-- Jay Beattie

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 3:45:07 PM5/14/21
to
Jay, I know that the conditions in and around Portland are pretty bad, but the idea is to decompress here, not compress more.

Joerg

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May 14, 2021, 3:54:39 PM5/14/21
to
On 5/13/21 7:03 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>
>
> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>
> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of two 900-foot
> horizontal steel beams. "
>
> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>
> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'? otherwise how can
> a 900 foot beam be made at all?


While it's technically possible they surely mixed it up with the span
length of the whole bridge), not the length of an individual steel member.

That sure was an "Oh s..t!" moment for the inspecting bridge worker.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Lou Holtman

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May 14, 2021, 4:02:05 PM5/14/21
to
Op vrijdag 14 mei 2021 om 21:40:20 UTC+2 schreef jbeattie:
Magical? No, but it doesn't corrode and it looks like new after I cleaned the bike ;-). Jokes aside, it is very well made and rides wonderful on tarmac and gravel by just changing tyres/wheels. Jay I have unlimited funds for bikes because of circumstances/choices. I am sure that someone in a different situation can have as much fun with a much cheaper bike. That is the honest truth. Fortunately it is a low profile bike and unknown to most people around here. I'm not the show off kind of guy. If I was I would have bought a Pinarello Dogma F12 or another bull shit Italian bike.

Lou

John B.

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May 14, 2021, 6:29:26 PM5/14/21
to
On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>
>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>
>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture�€? in one of
>>> two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>>>
>>> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>>
>>> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>>> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks like a break. One side is higher than the other.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>
>Good observation.
>Still and all how does one make a 900-ft steel object? Even
>ship keels are many pieces.

Well, the railroads build objects: that are miles and miles long and
are one continuous length, no "joint" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 7:23:47 PM5/14/21
to
Well, it depends on when that bridge was built. After the war with vast resources at hand they could build a full length girder. Before that they would use rivets and plates to connect steel members of a uniform size. Today they weld them together. When I rode across the Golden Gate on Wednesday they were replacing rivets. Man it was so noisy that my ears rang for an hour.

Tom Kunich

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May 14, 2021, 7:26:47 PM5/14/21
to
Have you heard of bullet trains? Do you think that they connect short lengths of track together to achieve 200 mph?

News 2021

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May 14, 2021, 7:38:48 PM5/14/21
to
On Fri, 14 May 2021 16:26:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
Yes

AMuzi

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May 14, 2021, 8:00:19 PM5/14/21
to
On 5/14/2021 6:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>>>
>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture�€? in one of
>>>>> two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>>>>>
>>>>> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>>>>> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>> I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks like a break. One side is higher than the other.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>
>>> Good observation.
>>> Still and all how does one make a 900-ft steel object? Even
>>> ship keels are many pieces.
>> Well, the railroads build objects: that are miles and miles long and
>> are one continuous length, no "joint" :-)
>
> Have you heard of bullet trains? Do you think that they connect short lengths of track together to achieve 200 mph?
>

That's exactly how high speed rail is made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mt7f9API0g
https://www.akrailroad.com/products/continuous-welded-rail-cwr

1600 ft sections are welded together as they are laid.
But rail is loaded very differently from bridge spans.

BTW rivets are still used with gussets & plates for
assemblies beyond welding dimensional limits.

John B.

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May 14, 2021, 8:20:08 PM5/14/21
to
"steel mills take a lot of water"??

Strange isn't it that I worked at the Krakatau Steel Plant in West
Java while it was being built and there wasn't a river or creek for,
probably, 200 km.

Can it be? That Tommy Boy (yet again) is expounding on a subject about
which he knows nothing at all?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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May 14, 2021, 9:04:45 PM5/14/21
to
On 5/14/2021 12:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 8:46:16 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 5/14/2021 10:59 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:44:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 5/14/2021 9:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Most people that had half a brain would know that most steel mills take a lot of water and are situated on or near water supplies. They would also know that since that bridge goes over a river that a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams via barges. It would never even occur to a normal brain that someone would move something like that on a road.
>>>> <sigh>
>>>>
>>>> Aside from the fact that nobody shipped a 900 foot beam - here's a local
>>>> steel mill:
>>>>
>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/5PQ4P9WSDTpVuhpE7
>>>>
>>>> That's one of many that used to exist upstream and down.
>>>>
>>>> Barges never shipped steel on that river.
>>>
>>> What river Frank? The Mississippi?
>> No, the one in the photograph I linked. The presence of a river does NOT
>> imply that "a steel mill situated on a river would move capital beams
>> via barges" as you claimed.
>>
>> Yes, I know, I've got to stop pointing out your many mistakes. I try to
>> ignore all but the ones about which I have some specialized knowledge.
>>
>> I'll try to do better, but you spout so much nonsense that it's
>> difficult to resist.
> And I will not stop pointing out that you have no fucking idea what they moved on that river and what they did not.

That river's about three miles from me. I crossed it every day going to
work, whether I biked or drove. We crossed it twice on today's ride.
I've ridden every road that crosses it from its source to where its
water enters the Ohio River. I've also kayaked and canoed on the river.

Until recently it had about six low-head dams along it within city
limits. The dams were installed by the steel companies to ensure a
sufficient supply of water. Government agencies are now removing those
dams one by one so the river can flush itself clean of steel-era pollutants.

Tom, maybe you can explain how one uses a barge to ship steel past a
concrete dam that stretches bank to bank. Or how a barge negotiates the
spots where paddlers have their kayaks scrape bottom.

Quit making a fool of yourself.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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May 14, 2021, 9:19:03 PM5/14/21
to
They're not typically extremely long. Around here, maybe 30 feet
sections seem to be typical. Thermit welding is used to assemble them on
site.

https://jalopnik.com/watch-the-fascinating-way-railroad-tracks-are-welded-to-1786586635


--
- Frank Krygowski

Sir Ridesalot

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May 14, 2021, 9:20:34 PM5/14/21
to
If Tom ever stopped posting here this newsgroup would be very, very, quiet since the vast majority of posts are either from Tom or from those arguing/correcting him.

Cheers

John B.

unread,
May 14, 2021, 9:37:14 PM5/14/21
to
On Fri, 14 May 2021 19:00:09 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/14/2021 6:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture�€? in one of
>>>>>> two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
>>>>>> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not an engineer but that doesn't look like a crack to me; it looks like a break. One side is higher than the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good observation.
>>>> Still and all how does one make a 900-ft steel object? Even
>>>> ship keels are many pieces.
>>> Well, the railroads build objects: that are miles and miles long and
>>> are one continuous length, no "joint" :-)
>>
>> Have you heard of bullet trains? Do you think that they connect short lengths of track together to achieve 200 mph?
>>
>
>That's exactly how high speed rail is made.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mt7f9API0g
>https://www.akrailroad.com/products/continuous-welded-rail-cwr
>
>1600 ft sections are welded together as they are laid.
>But rail is loaded very differently from bridge spans.
>
>BTW rivets are still used with gussets & plates for
>assemblies beyond welding dimensional limits.

I once did a study for a client regarding truck frame repairs and a
properly applied gusset with riveted or bolted fasteners may well be
stronger then the basic frame.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Tom Kunich

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May 15, 2021, 9:33:24 AM5/15/21
to
Yes Frank, we all know that you've lived there a lot longer than the steel plant has been in existence so you know a tributary to the Ohio river was NEVER used to transport steel products of production.

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 15, 2021, 9:42:43 AM5/15/21
to
Andrew, do you know why it's called "continuous welded rail"? Do you call a bicycle frame "multiple pieces" or one piece? Is a carbon fiber frame multiple pieces because it is made up of millions of fibers? Rails are 1600 feet because that is the longest length they can move comfortably by rail. It has to do with the radius of the turns. Geez, my father worked his whole life for the railroad and my brother too. I worked for BART for 3 years.

Tom Kunich

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May 15, 2021, 9:48:19 AM5/15/21
to
Now explain to everyone why you're saying that a steel plant in the tropics with gazillions of tons of water falling each year doesn't have a ready supply of water for the steel plant and since it is directly on the Sundae Straits that there is no ready means of heavy transport. Why do you say things that are so transparently a lie? I'm sure that you can use Google better than that.

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 15, 2021, 9:55:10 AM5/15/21
to
Now that is really amazing John. Imagine if you reinforce a structure with something 3 times the weight and strength it may be stronger that the original structure. That must have been a very difficult "study".

Ralph Barone

unread,
May 15, 2021, 11:45:08 AM5/15/21
to
I spent a summer working on a rail gang installing continuous welded rail.
The new rail would be dropped off on both sides of the existing track in
1/4 mile long sections. The rail changing machine sat on old track in the
front and new track in the back, and in the middle, the old track was
pushed out sideways, the ties were refaced and tie plates replaced, then
the new track was threaded on top and spiked down. A welding crew came
behind and thermite welded the joints every 1/4 mile. We had to ensure that
the average temperature each day was within limits and we must not have
done a good enough job because that winter when the temperature hit -40,
the rail broke on multiple occasions, leaving a large (maybe 3 ft) void
between the broken ends.

So yes, you can buy factory produced steel objects 900 ft or longer, and
yes, “continuous” train tracks are made from smaller pieces joined on site.


Tom Kunich

unread,
May 15, 2021, 1:43:39 PM5/15/21
to
But the finished product is a one piece rail. They could extrude rails to almost any length but they chose what they can actually move. It is then formed into a single continuous place on-site. High speed bullet trains cannot run on plated and bolted rails like freight lines use. There is a difference between moving at 60 mph and 120. And for actual bullet trains they need a wider rail spacing.

I worked on the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for two years and an electronics technician before another engineering position opened elsewhere and the chief weakness of that system was that they used solid axles. This meant in every turn the outside wheels would drag and wear off the the rail tops requiring them to be replaced regularly. In the under the bay tube this was especially noticeable since in the enclosed tube the squealing of the wearing of the rails could reach almost unbearable levels.

They replace these rails every couple of months but even then I wonder if the new cars have independent wheel drives because I just rode this twice last Wednesday and there was no dragging sounds at all.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
May 15, 2021, 2:28:09 PM5/15/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 10:43:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I worked on the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for two years

Perhaps it was 3 years?
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KSVpinfJPRc/m/7YXmM1BTBgAJ>
"I worked for BART for three years."

>They replace these rails every couple of months but even then I
>wonder if the new cars have independent wheel drives because I
>just rode this twice last Wednesday and there was no dragging
>sounds at all.

No. There's no mention of in wheel motor drive:
"New wheel tech quiets screeching rails" (Aug 31, 2016)
<https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2016/news20160831>
They used a tapered wheel profile to reduce noise and wear.

"The science of the screech: Big progress for BART's efforts to lower
the volume of your ride" (June 6, 2018)
<https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2018/news20180606>
"Now more than half of BART’s train cars have been outfitted with an
advanced wheel profile that reduces both noise and wear on the rail."
By now, I would expect all the BART trains to have the new wheel
profiles.

AMuzi

unread,
May 15, 2021, 4:25:06 PM5/15/21
to
On 5/15/2021 12:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> News 2021 <new...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 16:26:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-
>>> memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture�€? in one of two
>> yes, “continuous†train tracks are made from smaller pieces joined on site.
> But the finished product is a one piece rail. They could extrude rails to almost any length but they chose what they can actually move. It is then formed into a single continuous place on-site. High speed bullet trains cannot run on plated and bolted rails like freight lines use. There is a difference between moving at 60 mph and 120. And for actual bullet trains they need a wider rail spacing.
>
> I worked on the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for two years and an electronics technician before another engineering position opened elsewhere and the chief weakness of that system was that they used solid axles. This meant in every turn the outside wheels would drag and wear off the the rail tops requiring them to be replaced regularly. In the under the bay tube this was especially noticeable since in the enclosed tube the squealing of the wearing of the rails could reach almost unbearable levels.
>
> They replace these rails every couple of months but even then I wonder if the new cars have independent wheel drives because I just rode this twice last Wednesday and there was no dragging sounds at all.
>


Sorta wider sometimes depending on the meaning of 'wide':
http://chartsbin.com/view/38573

Shinkansen runs US/Canada 1435 gauge. JNR is narrow, 1067.

(I couldn't recall the actual numbers, found chart above)

Andre Jute

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May 15, 2021, 4:27:19 PM5/15/21
to

Tom Kunich

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May 15, 2021, 4:44:09 PM5/15/21
to
To tell you the truth I am somewhat amazed that they can keep a high speed train on a track that has a gauge of only 5'6". In most states trucks have a speed limit the same as automobiles and they need every bit of their 9-just under 10 feet of width to keep the truck on its wheels. And the fastest we can expect these trucks to move is around 80 mph and not 200.

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 15, 2021, 4:48:08 PM5/15/21
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRHzsqh0d0g

AMuzi

unread,
May 15, 2021, 5:18:11 PM5/15/21
to
On 5/15/2021 3:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:44:09 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:25:06 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 5/15/2021 12:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
>>>>> News 2021 <new...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 16:26:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-
>>>>>> memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture�€? in one of two
>>>>> yes, “continuous†train tracks are made from smaller pieces joined on site.
>>>> But the finished product is a one piece rail. They could extrude rails to almost any length but they chose what they can actually move. It is then formed into a single continuous place on-site. High speed bullet trains cannot run on plated and bolted rails like freight lines use. There is a difference between moving at 60 mph and 120. And for actual bullet trains they need a wider rail spacing.
>>>>
>>>> I worked on the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for two years and an electronics technician before another engineering position opened elsewhere and the chief weakness of that system was that they used solid axles. This meant in every turn the outside wheels would drag and wear off the the rail tops requiring them to be replaced regularly. In the under the bay tube this was especially noticeable since in the enclosed tube the squealing of the wearing of the rails could reach almost unbearable levels.
>>>>
>>>> They replace these rails every couple of months but even then I wonder if the new cars have independent wheel drives because I just rode this twice last Wednesday and there was no dragging sounds at all.
>>>>
>>> Sorta wider sometimes depending on the meaning of 'wide':
>>> http://chartsbin.com/view/38573
>>>
>>> Shinkansen runs US/Canada 1435 gauge. JNR is narrow, 1067.
>>>
>>> (I couldn't recall the actual numbers, found chart above)
>> To tell you the truth I am somewhat amazed that they can keep a high speed train on a track that has a gauge of only 5'6". In most states trucks have a speed limit the same as automobiles and they need every bit of their 9-just under 10 feet of width to keep the truck on its wheels. And the fastest we can expect these trucks to move is around 80 mph and not 200.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRHzsqh0d0g
>

That's two years ago.

This month:
https://www.audacy.com/wbbm780/news/interstate-reopens-several-vehicles-flipped-possible-tornado

Tom Kunich

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May 15, 2021, 6:10:27 PM5/15/21
to
The time it occurred doesn't matter does it? Do you suppose they stop running a bullet train because of possible tornado weather? I can only imagine that they believe that they are generating enough negative lift to hold the train on the tracks. I see that as being able to be overcome by conditions.

Even more horrifying - Bullet trains are completely computer controlled from a central location. We just saw a pipeline hacked and they actually paid the ransom to bring it back online. What do you think a few hundred lives on a high speed rail would be worth?

John B.

unread,
May 15, 2021, 9:31:13 PM5/15/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 11:28:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 15 May 2021 10:43:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I worked on the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for two years
>
>Perhaps it was 3 years?
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KSVpinfJPRc/m/7YXmM1BTBgAJ>
>"I worked for BART for three years."
>
>>They replace these rails every couple of months but even then I
>>wonder if the new cars have independent wheel drives because I
>>just rode this twice last Wednesday and there was no dragging
>>sounds at all.
>
>No. There's no mention of in wheel motor drive:
>"New wheel tech quiets screeching rails" (Aug 31, 2016)
><https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2016/news20160831>
>They used a tapered wheel profile to reduce noise and wear.
>
>"The science of the screech: Big progress for BART's efforts to lower
>the volume of your ride" (June 6, 2018)
><https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2018/news20180606>
>"Now more than half of BART’s train cars have been outfitted with an
>advanced wheel profile that reduces both noise and wear on the rail."
>By now, I would expect all the BART trains to have the new wheel
>profiles.

The difference seems to be in the amount of taper as train wheels have
always had a "tapered" profile how else could they go around curves.
They also have "tires". See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 15, 2021, 9:57:47 PM5/15/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Tommy, you wrote, "most steel mills take a lot of water and are
situated on or near water supplies". and I pointed out that I had
worked at a steel mill where there was no large source of water.

And you start talking about the rain... what do you thing was going
on? Hundreds of little black haired guys dancing around in the mud
with buckets trying to catch rain drops.

But more to the point, there was no process in the mill that required
water to operate. So why would they need all this water you are going
on about.

As for the Sunda Straits, well yes it is right there, but there wasn't
any dock so it is awful hard to load all that steel onto whatever
floating device you have imagined.

And the "gazillions of tons of water falling each year"? Strange isn't
it with all that water every Asian country that I have lived in, and I
have lived in many, worries about water. Singapore even has to import
water they have so little.

Tom, you are a fool.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

unread,
May 15, 2021, 10:15:26 PM5/15/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:55:07 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 6:37:14 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 19:00:09 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>> >On 5/14/2021 6:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> >>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture?€? in one of
Well Tom I suppose that is the difference between you and I. When I
was asked to recommend a good method of reinforcing broken oil field
truck frames that broke in use (usually due to gross overloading) we
did some calculations and recommended a repair. And, I might add that
none of our repaired frames ever broke again.

See Tom a truck frame is not a rigid structure it does flex (bend) to
a degree when you haul 15 or 20 tons up over the tail roller Your
repair "add 3 times the weight and strength" would likely result in a
short section that was so much more rigid that it would not flex and
thus would result in a concentration of stress at that point and the
frame might even be more liable to brake then before you applied your
"fix".
--
Cheers,

John B.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
May 15, 2021, 10:16:56 PM5/15/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 08:31:03 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>The difference seems to be in the amount of taper as train wheels have
>always had a "tapered" profile how else could they go around curves.
>They also have "tires". See
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel

I think you mean this URL:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_tire>

I guess(tm) is the way the taper works is by slightly changing the
train wheel diameter in a turn. When the train makes a turn, the
wheel on the inside of the turn follows a shorter path than the wheel
on the outside of the turn. Since both inside and outside wheels are
attached to a common axle, one or both wheels are going to "spin" on
the rails due to the difference in surface speeds of the wheels. By
adding a taper on both wheels, the axle will try to slide towards the
outside of the turn, causing the inside wheel to slide towards the
wider part of the taper, and the outside wheel to slide toward the
narrower part of the tape. In effect, the inside wheel increases a
little in diameter, while the outside wheel decreases a little in
diameter. That makes the wheel diameters a closer approximation of
what would be needed to make the turn with minimal scrubbing.

Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
standard gauge instead of something wider. A wider than standard
gauge would aggravate the scrubbing problem. Visualize a really long
axle on a really wide turn. If the inside wheel was moving along the
inside rail without slipping, then the outside wheel would turn at the
same RPM, which is not fast enough to prevent it from polishing the
outside rail. Or, if the centrifugal force of the turn caused the
outside wheel to move along the outside rail at the same speed, the
inside wheel would again polish the rail. As the axle become longer,
the difference between the inside and outside path lengths become
larger, causing more polishing.

John B.

unread,
May 15, 2021, 10:33:53 PM5/15/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:25:06 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 5/15/2021 12:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 8:45:08 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
>> >> News 2021 <new...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>> >>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 16:26:45 -0700, Tom Kunich scribed:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> >>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 07:31:01 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 5/13/2021 9:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 10:03:54 p.m. UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-
>> >>> memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture�€? in one of two
>> >> yes, “continuous�€ train tracks are made from smaller pieces joined on site.
>> > But the finished product is a one piece rail. They could extrude rails to almost any length but they chose what they can actually move. It is then formed into a single continuous place on-site. High speed bullet trains cannot run on plated and bolted rails like freight lines use. There is a difference between moving at 60 mph and 120. And for actual bullet trains they need a wider rail spacing.
>> >
>> > I worked on the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for two years and an electronics technician before another engineering position opened elsewhere and the chief weakness of that system was that they used solid axles. This meant in every turn the outside wheels would drag and wear off the the rail tops requiring them to be replaced regularly. In the under the bay tube this was especially noticeable since in the enclosed tube the squealing of the wearing of the rails could reach almost unbearable levels.
>> >
>> > They replace these rails every couple of months but even then I wonder if the new cars have independent wheel drives because I just rode this twice last Wednesday and there was no dragging sounds at all.
>> >
>> Sorta wider sometimes depending on the meaning of 'wide':
>> http://chartsbin.com/view/38573
>>
>> Shinkansen runs US/Canada 1435 gauge. JNR is narrow, 1067.
>>
>> (I couldn't recall the actual numbers, found chart above)
>
>To tell you the truth I am somewhat amazed that they can keep a high speed train on a track that has a gauge of only 5'6". In most states trucks have a speed limit the same as automobiles and they need every bit of their 9-just under 10 feet of width to keep the truck on its wheels. And the fastest we can expect these trucks to move is around 80 mph and not 200.

An interesting comment as the Japanese "Bullet Trains" which have been
in service since the 1960's run on Standard Gauge, 1,435 mm, (4’ 8.5”)
tracks.
--
Cheers,

John B.

News 2021

unread,
May 15, 2021, 10:58:42 PM5/15/21
to

>>Now that is really amazing John. Imagine if you reinforce a structure
>>with something 3 times the weight and strength it may be stronger that
>>the original structure. That must have been a very difficult "study".
>
> Well Tom I suppose that is the difference between you and I. When I was
> asked to recommend a good method of reinforcing broken oil field truck
> frames that broke in use (usually due to gross overloading) we did some
> calculations and recommended a repair. And, I might add that none of our
> repaired frames ever broke again.
>
> See Tom a truck frame is not a rigid structure it does flex (bend) to a
> degree when you haul 15 or 20 tons up over the tail roller Your repair
> "add 3 times the weight and strength" would likely result in a short
> section that was so much more rigid that it would not flex and thus
> would result in a concentration of stress at that point and the frame
> might even be more liable to brake then before you applied your "fix".

Complete an utter waste of effort to reply to silly little tommy.
The bloke can not even keep a bicycle working with out coming here daily
for assistance.

BTW, all these point(truck flex, high speed rail design) have all been
repeatedly covered on the interweb/www/ether for decades.



John B.

unread,
May 15, 2021, 11:06:17 PM5/15/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 19:16:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 16 May 2021 08:31:03 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>The difference seems to be in the amount of taper as train wheels have
>>always had a "tapered" profile how else could they go around curves.
>>They also have "tires". See
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel
>
>I think you mean this URL:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_tire>
>
>I guess(tm) is the way the taper works is by slightly changing the
>train wheel diameter in a turn. When the train makes a turn, the
>wheel on the inside of the turn follows a shorter path than the wheel
>on the outside of the turn. Since both inside and outside wheels are
>attached to a common axle, one or both wheels are going to "spin" on
>the rails due to the difference in surface speeds of the wheels. By
>adding a taper on both wheels, the axle will try to slide towards the
>outside of the turn, causing the inside wheel to slide towards the
>wider part of the taper, and the outside wheel to slide toward the
>narrower part of the tape. In effect, the inside wheel increases a
>little in diameter, while the outside wheel decreases a little in
>diameter. That makes the wheel diameters a closer approximation of
>what would be needed to make the turn with minimal scrubbing.
>
Yes. and they have probably been doing it since the days of George
Stephenson


>Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
>standard gauge instead of something wider. A wider than standard
>gauge would aggravate the scrubbing problem. Visualize a really long
>axle on a really wide turn. If the inside wheel was moving along the
>inside rail without slipping, then the outside wheel would turn at the
>same RPM, which is not fast enough to prevent it from polishing the
>outside rail. Or, if the centrifugal force of the turn caused the
>outside wheel to move along the outside rail at the same speed, the
>inside wheel would again polish the rail. As the axle become longer,
>the difference between the inside and outside path lengths become
>larger, causing more polishing.

Railroad tracks are built with a Minimum curve radii which takes in
consideration the speed of the train and to some extent the mechanical
ability, particularly the couplings. The "standard" in the U.S. is a
absolute minimum 288-foot radius,but normally a 410-foot radius is
used as a minimum, but for the handling of long freight trains, a
minimum 574-foot radius is preferable.

Note: this is for "standard gauge" tracks and if the "gauge" is wider
or narrower then the "Standard" then, of course the curve radius must
change.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Sir Ridesalot

unread,
May 15, 2021, 11:51:50 PM5/15/21
to
The really fast Bullet trains also have banked curves, and the trains themselves levitate about 4 inches above the tracks once a certain speed (150 kph) in some cases) is reached. At that point the wheels don't touch the track at all.

https://www.jrailpass.com/blog/maglev-bullet-train

Cheers

sms

unread,
May 16, 2021, 12:38:47 AM5/16/21
to
The issue with BART noise around curves is that the cars use solid
axles. So on a curve one wheel will be dragging along the track.

This was a decision that was made because supposedly a solid axle means
quieter trains on straight sections and most of BART is straight. I
suppose that they could have done something more expensive and had a
locking differential for straight sections and a non-locking
differential for curves.

<https://www.kqed.org/news/11030282/why-are-bart-trains-so-loud>
<https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2018/news20180606>

sms

unread,
May 16, 2021, 1:16:11 AM5/16/21
to
On 5/15/2021 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> An interesting comment as the Japanese "Bullet Trains" which have been
> in service since the 1960's run on Standard Gauge, 1,435 mm, (4’ 8.5”)
> tracks.

Same as China's high-speed rail, 4' 8.5".

BART chose a non-standard gauge for multiple reasons, none of which, in
hindsight, were worth the extra cost for rolling stock. First, there was
a claim that standard gauge and height rail cars would be unstable due
to high winds in the east bay hills. Second, there was a desire to make
the tunnels and tube as low a height as possible to save money, hence
the lower and wider cars, and the third-rail design instead of the safer
and less expensive overhead wires uses on high-speed rail systems.

Do any high speed rail systems use a wider gauge than 1435mm/4' 8.5"?

News 2021

unread,
May 16, 2021, 1:27:44 AM5/16/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 10:06:07 +0700, John B. scribed:

> On Sat, 15 May 2021 19:16:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 16 May 2021 08:31:03 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>The difference seems to be in the amount of taper as train wheels have
>>>always had a "tapered" profile how else could they go around curves.
>>>They also have "tires". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel
>>
>>I think you mean this URL: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_tire>
>>
>>I guess(tm) is the way the taper works is by slightly changing the train
>>wheel diameter in a turn. When the train makes a turn, the wheel on the
>>inside of the turn follows a shorter path than the wheel on the outside
>>of the turn. Since both inside and outside wheels are attached to a
>>common axle, one or both wheels are going to "spin" on the rails due to
>>the difference in surface speeds of the wheels. By adding a taper on
>>both wheels, the axle will try to slide towards the outside of the turn,
>>causing the inside wheel to slide towards the wider part of the taper,
>>and the outside wheel to slide toward the narrower part of the tape. In
>>effect, the inside wheel increases a little in diameter, while the
>>outside wheel decreases a little in diameter. That makes the wheel
>>diameters a closer approximation of what would be needed to make the
>>turn with minimal scrubbing.
>>
> Yes. and they have probably been doing it since the days of George
> Stephenson

Yes, but they did find that for high speed rail, they needed to change
the details a bit to prevent 'hunting'(?). The paoper is on the ether.

John B.

unread,
May 16, 2021, 1:28:28 AM5/16/21
to
Even worse, they don't have wheels :-(
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 16, 2021, 1:40:19 AM5/16/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 21:38:42 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
Normally train cars have solid axle/wheel assembles where the wheels
are fixed to a common axle which has outboard bearings.

But I believe that the BART are essentially electrically self
propelled cars linked together which may make a difference.

Interestingly both the "Sky Train", elevated railroad and the "Under
ground" subway, in Bangkok, are electrically propelled trains running
on tracks and make no noise at all :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

unread,
May 16, 2021, 1:46:04 AM5/16/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 22:16:06 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
I read one reference that said that all high speed trains were running
on "Standard gauge" rails.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Andre Jute

unread,
May 16, 2021, 5:57:17 AM5/16/21
to
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:03:54 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>
> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>
> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of
> two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
>
> 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
>
> Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
> otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Mmm. I don't know much about railway engineering, but I do know a good deal about automobile and yacht engineering, and almost certainly more about bicycle frame structures than most of the "engineers" here who're for the most part jumped-up plant maintenance supervisors or IT jockeys who didn't design anything substantial in their lives, vide the monkeys bragging about filling in CE licensing forms as their greatest achievement -- as if we should be impressed by bureaucrats!

About transporting a rail the length of several football fields. I once built a 68ft yacht 440 miles from the sea and nearly that far from the nearest river that could handle it for about a week in the year, maybe, in a very wet season, and which flowed in the wrong direction to exit into a violent ocean in the middle of a desert hundred of miles from the nearest shipyard and another thousand from the first shipyard where I could hope to fit out and shake down a yacht of that class. The reason for this decision had to do with the sponsors financing the yacht and politics. Transporting the hull by read cost more than building it, and was a total pain in the arse from which I developed my lifelong practice of saying a firm "No!" to money-men with irrational demands. You wouldn't believe the number of low overpasses, the greater number of roads that run for miles with constricted widths, the slowness of the bureaucrats whose assistance is essential to such a venture, etc, and, worst of all, the spaghetti of telephone and telegraph wires running over even the smallest bypass roads. I often thought, because the road that led to it ran mostly through open countryside, that I should have chosen the river that came out in a violent sea, and taken my chances on piloting an unproven ship out of that and around a violent cape where hot and a cold oceans clash. River transport is relatively safe if you do your homework, less stressful, and a lot cheaper. I was reminded of that on one of the last rides I took with a now late friend. We cycled to a small country town where we stopped at a pub for sandwich and a beer. On the other side of the road was a church where we had often admired the huge church bells, possibly the biggest in the country, certainly much larger than in any of the surrounding much bigger cities and towns. The barman was a raconteur. He told us the bells were cast in England and arrived by ship at what was then a grain harbour for the distilleries and is now mainly a holiday destination for floating gin palaces. This river was navigable by large ocean-going ships up to at least an eighty-foot Baltic trader whose rotting hulk we often inspected on rides to the other side of our own town, for a few miles, and then by barge. The barges brought the bells, and then the bells were dragged a couple of hundred yards overland on solid-log sleds by teams of oxen, with a priest on standby to give instant absolution to the sweating, swearing farmers urging the ox teams to maximum effort. The bells were hauled on the sleds up an earth-ramp and thence into the tower. Hallelujah.

A girder can be one piece, but can also be a construction (somewhere else or in situ), often triangulated. The early safety bicycles' diamond frames were, in many instance consciously, inherited from late nineteenth century bridge structures. One of them, the Pedersen, also included in its clever frame suspension bridge practice. See:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Pedersen+bicycle&t=osx&iax=images&ia=images

Tom, I'm delighted to report that Short Johnny, in the manner of a blind squirrel eventually stumbling over a nut, has at last got something right. The flexibility of sideway U-shape truck chasses is part of their load-bearing and suspension reaction -- and integrity. That is why large flitch plates are not fitted; indeed there are regulations about the maximum size of flitch plates that may be fitted, for fear of causing, a larger and more dangerous crack than is fixed. In addition, crossbars are limited, and X-frames are totally banned because rigidity causes more breaks than flexibility. Congratulations on guiding the little man out of the morass of nuance-less error in which he wallowed so long. Let's hope he can keep it up.

Ah, yes, before I forget, the reason for this post: I'm not overly impressed with Japanese bullet trains (which are superb to travel on), or the Californian Korrupt Komik Kapers version.. Ettore Bugatti's railcars set a record of 196kph well before WW2, on poorly maintained French standard tracks, and without realtime computer adjustments.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Bugatti+Railcars&t=osx&iax=images&ia=images

Andre Jute
Free speech is the first essential ingredient of truth.

Frank Krygowski

unread,
May 16, 2021, 11:18:24 AM5/16/21
to
Yes. Or see
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/train-wheel-science/


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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May 16, 2021, 11:28:39 AM5/16/21
to
While I don't mean to disagree with the final statement...

I suspect that the amount of cooling water needed depends on the type of
steel mill. I'm going to work from memory, not checking references, so I
may need correcting, but:

From about 1900 to maybe 1980 in the U.S. most steel mills were
integrated operations, incorporating blast furnaces to refine iron ore
into metallic pig iron, plus furnaces of varying design to refine pig
iron into various types of cast iron and steel. Lots of interesting
chemistry takes place during the refining processes. But those types of
mills required large amounts of cooling water, probably because there's
so much processing equipment.

In the U.S., at least, the last several decades have seen the
construction of lots of "mini mills." These don't input nearly as much
ore. Instead, they input scrap metal like crushed car bodies. That
material goes into electric furnaces which pretty much just re-melt the
metal. It's like the difference between microwaving a frozen dinner, vs.
cooking from scratch. I suspect electric furnaces and especially mini
mills require a lot less cooling water.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich

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May 16, 2021, 11:42:18 AM5/16/21
to
Since you cannot make steel without water it appears that you are the fool. And since cold rolled steel spindles can be as much as 50 tons, you haven't the intelligence that God gave a goat as far as Transporting them.

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 16, 2021, 11:49:58 AM5/16/21
to
Why don't you explain to BART that they shouldn't be using a wide than standard railroad gauge? I'm sure that they will give your opinion all of the attention it deserves.

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 16, 2021, 12:11:19 PM5/16/21
to
I know all about the flexibility of truck frames being necessary to a point. You don't really believe that John knows anything about that, that he doesn't find on Google do you? The Japanese maintain a spotless record for the Bullet Trains in one clear manner - extreme attention to detail of maintenance and inspection of the track and train. I haven't seen this anywhere in America. BART would allow the tracks to almost wear out in the turn in the Bay tunnel before they would replace them. That they didn't derail was only because they were careful to replace the rails before they broke and not before they weren't on the very verge of doing so. BART has had several derailments and it is luck alone that the only derailment of a train on a skyway was on a train that was out of service and returning to the repair yard.

Tom Kunich

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May 16, 2021, 12:16:35 PM5/16/21
to
Frank, Scientific American gives a simplified explanation. The very fact that the outside rails wear out or that the taper on the train wheels is far less than would be required to act in the way that they show is proof that the tapers are only meant to keep the wheels centered on the track and not correct for turns. This probably works for railroad trains because the radius of the turns is carefully control, but BART is not. They are limited with the space they have to turn.

jbeattie

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May 16, 2021, 12:23:52 PM5/16/21
to
I did the contracts for part of the transportation for these:
http://media.oregonlive.com/business_impact/photo/oiltarsandsjpg-408a03bac503ed6d.jpg
https://northernrockiesrisingtide.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/heavymart2.jpg
https://tinyurl.com/5cut6c6m Emmert is a local company that moves massive objects via truck. https://www.emmertintl.com/company/ Just because something is large, doesn't mean it will ever see water transport.

OTOH, it makes sense to have rail/water transport available for any manufacturing industry, and thus the location of Mid-Western manufacturers on the Great Lakes and adjacent rivers. With those refinery modules, I did the stevedoring contracts for loading/unloading from ships onto barges. The modules were manufactured in Korea; landed in the Columbia River and barged inland -- then trucked over the Rockies into Alberta -- and now used for processing Kerl oil sands sludge. The crane/rigging work was mind-blowing.

-- Jay Beattie.

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 16, 2021, 12:33:02 PM5/16/21
to
There are very few places in the world that have both the width and weight capacity to move something like that. We can certainly count out John's supposed employment in the Java steel mill. As I said, those steel loads often exceed 50 tons or more and the roads turn to gravel and then mud in places like the tropics where Java is situated. He just "accidently" forgot to mention that since they didn't have a dock right there on the Sunda Staits, there was a railroad servicing the mill.

Jeff Liebermann

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May 16, 2021, 12:38:13 PM5/16/21
to
On Sat, 15 May 2021 22:16:06 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Google found some additional theories for the wider BART gauge:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=why+are+bart+trains+wider+gauge>

I like this explanation:
<https://medium.com/@hobnobbing/why-does-bart-use-5-6-rail-gauge-when-the-standard-gauge-is-4-8-5-f66a4097224d>
"BART was originally designed to use standard gauge rails. The BART
planners switched to nonstandard gauge to ensure that only custom
manufactured BART trains could use BART infrastructure. Eliminating
every alternative to a market offering is called a monopoly."

>Do any high speed rail systems use a wider gauge than 1435mm/4' 8.5"?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway>
"All high-speed rail lines use standard gauge except those in Russia,
Finland, Portugal and Uzbekistan."

Light rail systems also use standard gauge:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail#Track_gauge>
"Older standard-gauge vehicles could not negotiate sharp turns as
easily as narrow-gauge ones, but modern light rail systems achieve
tighter turning radii by using articulated cars."

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
May 16, 2021, 1:34:09 PM5/16/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 09:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Frank, Scientific American gives a simplified explanation. The very fact that the outside rails wear out or that the taper on the train wheels is far less than would be required to act in the way that they show is proof that the tapers are only meant to keep the wheels centered on the track and not correct for turns. This probably works for railroad trains because the radius of the turns is carefully control, but BART is not. They are limited with the space they have to turn.

I beg to differ. The turn radius limits are about the same for BART
as for standard gauge. The BART minimum turning radius spec is only 5
meters (4%) less than North American rail minimum for general service.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_rolling_stock>
BART minimum turning radius 120 m (390 ft)

Minimum turning radius of some other trains:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_railway_curve_radius#List_of_selected_minimum_curve_radii>

North American Rail Network turning radius 87.8 m (288.1 ft)
Absolute minimum radius; not on lines for general service.

North American Rail Network turning radius 125 m (410.1 ft)
Minimum radius for general service

North American Rail Network turning radius 175 m (574.1 ft)
Preferred minimum on freight main lines

More on a BART turn:
"Brake-Slamming BART Turn In Oakland Is The Result Of An Old Political
Favor"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rwbsSun1DU> (3:49)

AMuzi

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May 16, 2021, 2:56:38 PM5/16/21
to
On 5/16/2021 11:32 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:42:18 AM UTC-7, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:57:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 5:20:08 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2021 06:48:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 13, 2021 at 8:09:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 13 May 2021 21:03:45 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture†in one of
Stalin moved entire German factory towns with complete
plants, equipment and the engineers on Soviet rail deep into
the Russian East in 1945~47 with plain old slave labor.
Worked fine.

For that matter, Gen Giap used the same method to bring
heavy artillery through mountain jungles around Dien Bien
Phu in 1954. Also successfully (for him, not for the wholly
expendable slave labor)

and, uh, Pyramids.

AMuzi

unread,
May 16, 2021, 3:00:49 PM5/16/21
to
I'd go with the 'fixed' contract theory over the physics
theory. Chicago El, US standard gauge:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/ELSWITCH.JPG

Tom Kunich

unread,
May 16, 2021, 7:11:20 PM5/16/21
to
i stopped up on the top pf Palomares today, right behind a guy that had a jersey saying something about Japan. I asked him if he had been there and he said that he had business meetings there. I asked him why air never gets under those high speed trains and tips them over. He said that it was very simple. No air could get under there. He said that they move inside of an enclosed track. And it does make noises when they go over the thermal expansion joints just not much. I thought that was just MagLev trains but he said that all of them are like that. Though I don't think he rode them a lot.

John B.

unread,
May 16, 2021, 8:00:29 PM5/16/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 08:42:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Tommy you just keep changing the subject... as well as knowing very
little about the steel business.

The Krakatau Steel Plant that I mentioned was initially - i.e. the
first process installed, had electrical powered melting devices which
processed scrap steel which was intended to produce hot rolled steel
sheet and as I told you no water was used in either process.

And again, as I told you, there was no loading docks constructed at
the time I worked there and no railroad either. Everything was off
loaded at the port of Jakarta and trucked to the plant site.

But what is a cold rolled steel "spindle" that is a new one. I googled
the term and as far as I can see there is no such thing although did
find "steel spindle" - Trailer Axle Spindle for 1" x 1" Wheel
Bearings, 1250 lb capacity. They don't list the shipping weight but
I'll guess that it isn't 50 tons.

So, apparently "spindle" is yet another word that Tommy uses in order
to impress the multitudes with his great knowledge... and when queried
can't explain what the word means.
--
Cheers,

John B.

News 2021

unread,
May 16, 2021, 8:33:49 PM5/16/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 13:56:27 -0500, AMuzi scribed:

> Stalin moved entire German factory towns with complete plants, equipment
> and the engineers on Soviet rail deep into the Russian East in 1945~47
> with plain old slave labor. Worked fine.
>
> For that matter, Gen Giap used the same method to bring heavy artillery
> through mountain jungles around Dien Bien Phu in 1954. Also successfully
> (for him, not for the wholly expendable slave labor)
>
> and, uh, Pyramids.

Whgen China decided to modernise in the 80's, one of the things they did
was to buy up old steel mills through out the globe, take them apart,
shift them all to China, rebuild them and then operate them to learn how
it was done. Some where on ewe tube is video of the monstrous German
plant they purchased.

At the time, a few companies thought they had won the lottery in selling
their crapped out steel mills to China. China learn from those mills and
went on to bill better mills that have just about captured the prtoduction
market.

News 2021

unread,
May 16, 2021, 8:48:59 PM5/16/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 02:57:14 -0700, Andre Jute scribed:


> Mmm. I don't know much about railway engineering, but I do know a good
> deal about automobile and yacht engineering, and almost certainly more
> about bicycle frame structures than most of the "engineers" here who're
> for the most part jumped-up plant maintenance supervisors or IT jockeys
> who didn't design anything substantial in their lives, vide the monkeys
> bragging about filling in CE licensing forms as their greatest
> achievement -- as if we should be impressed by bureaucrats!
>
> About transporting a rail the length of several football fields. I once
> built a 68ft yacht 440 miles from the sea.

You "built it"?
What was it made from?
And why did you build it there?

I've met plenty of blokes who have built similar, but they usually do it
in their backyard as a hobby. So far they have used wood, fibreglass,
steel* and cement. I'm yet to meet anyone try carbon fibre.

*The steel yacht story was funny. It came out when an old guy was asked
why he was learning welding. It seems he could 'weld' and set about
building a steel yacht in his back yard and when it was time, he had it
craned up and over his house to cradle on a prime mver, where it promptly
'fell apart'. He was extremely happy that it didn't do that above his
house and figured it was probably best that he learn how to weld properly
before he did the next one.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
May 16, 2021, 9:00:08 PM5/16/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 16:11:18 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>i stopped up on the top pf Palomares today, right behind a guy that had a jersey saying something about Japan. I asked him if he had been there and he said that he had business meetings there. I asked him why air never gets under those high speed trains and tips them over. He said that it was very simple. No air could get under there. He said that they move inside of an enclosed track. And it does make noises when they go over the thermal expansion joints just not much. I thought that was just MagLev trains but he said that all of them are like that. Though I don't think he rode them a lot.

<https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+high+speed+train&tbm=isch>
I can see that the train has a "skirt" that extends almost to ground
level. However, I don't see an "enclosed track".

Their maglev train does seem to have enclosed beams or tracks:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=maglev%20train%20diagram&tbm=isch>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+maglev+train&tbm=isch>

pH

unread,
May 16, 2021, 9:41:24 PM5/16/21
to
Bicycle...okay, now I'm legal.

Re: traintalk...and I wish I could take one from Aptos to Santa Cruz or
where ever right now....just like in a civilized country.
(Maybe John S. can tell us about trains in Thailand, if any.)

Here's a link to "The History Guy" where he talks about the gauge being
changed over in the US (or part of) in little more than a day....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v81Gwu6BTE

pH in Aptos

Andre Jute

unread,
May 16, 2021, 11:09:12 PM5/16/21
to
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 5:11:19 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 2:57:17 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 3:03:54 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
> > > https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-crack-in-bridge-memphis-arkansas-tennessee-20210513-wgkbsv7onzhw7l3ag2bob673da-story.html
> > >
> > > Same phrase as the paywall version which caught my eye:
> > >
> > > :...inspectors spotted a “significant fracture” in one of
> > > two 900-foot horizontal steel beams. "
> > >
> > > 900 foot beam? [Non USAians note that's 275 meters!]
> > >
> > > Is that a thing? Maybe welded like 'continuous rail'?
> > > otherwise how can a 900 foot beam be made at all?
> > > --
> > > Andrew Muzi
> > > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > Mmm. I don't know much about railway engineering, but I do know a good deal about automobile and yacht engineering, and almost certainly more about bicycle frame structures than most of the "engineers" here who're for the most part jumped-up plant maintenance supervisors or IT jockeys who didn't design anything substantial in their lives, vide the monkeys bragging about filling in CE licensing forms as their greatest achievement -- as if we should be impressed by bureaucrats!
> >
> > About transporting a rail the length of several football fields. I once built a 68ft yacht 440 miles from the sea and nearly that far from the nearest river that could handle it for about a week in the year, maybe, in a very wet season, and which flowed in the wrong direction to exit into a violent ocean in the middle of a desert hundred of miles from the nearest shipyard and another thousand from the first shipyard where I could hope to fit out and shake down a yacht of that class. The reason for this decision had to do with the sponsors financing the yacht and politics. Transporting the hull by read cost more than building it, and was a total pain in the arse from which I developed my lifelong practice of saying a firm "No!" to money-men with irrational demands. You wouldn't believe the number of low overpasses, the greater number of roads that run for miles with constricted widths, the slowness of the bureaucrats whose assistance is essential to such a venture, etc, and, worst of all, the spaghetti of telephone and telegraph wires running over even the smallest bypass roads. I often thought, because the road that led to it ran mostly through open countryside, that I should have chosen the river that came out in a violent sea, and taken my chances on piloting an unproven ship out of that and around a violent cape where hot and a cold oceans clash. River transport is relatively safe if you do your homework, less stressful, and a lot cheaper. I was reminded of that on one of the last rides I took with a now late friend. We cycled to a small country town where we stopped at a pub for sandwich and a beer. On the other side of the road was a church where we had often admired the huge church bells, possibly the biggest in the country, certainly much larger than in any of the surrounding much bigger cities and towns. The barman was a raconteur. He told us the bells were cast in England and arrived by ship at what was then a grain harbour for the distilleries and is now mainly a holiday destination for floating gin palaces. This river was navigable by large ocean-going ships up to at least an eighty-foot Baltic trader whose rotting hulk we often inspected on rides to the other side of our own town, for a few miles, and then by barge. The barges brought the bells, and then the bells were dragged a couple of hundred yards overland on solid-log sleds by teams of oxen, with a priest on standby to give instant absolution to the sweating, swearing farmers urging the ox teams to maximum effort. The bells were hauled on the sleds up an earth-ramp and thence into the tower. Hallelujah.
> >
> > A girder can be one piece, but can also be a construction (somewhere else or in situ), often triangulated. The early safety bicycles' diamond frames were, in many instance consciously, inherited from late nineteenth century bridge structures. One of them, the Pedersen, also included in its clever frame suspension bridge practice. See:
> > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Pedersen+bicycle&t=osx&iax=images&ia=images
> >
> > Tom, I'm delighted to report that Short Johnny, in the manner of a blind squirrel eventually stumbling over a nut, has at last got something right. The flexibility of sideway U-shape truck chasses is part of their load-bearing and suspension reaction -- and integrity. That is why large flitch plates are not fitted; indeed there are regulations about the maximum size of flitch plates that may be fitted, for fear of causing, a larger and more dangerous crack than is fixed. In addition, crossbars are limited, and X-frames are totally banned because rigidity causes more breaks than flexibility. Congratulations on guiding the little man out of the morass of nuance-less error in which he wallowed so long. Let's hope he can keep it up.
> >
> > Ah, yes, before I forget, the reason for this post: I'm not overly impressed with Japanese bullet trains (which are superb to travel on), or the Californian Korrupt Komik Kapers version.. Ettore Bugatti's railcars set a record of 196kph well before WW2, on poorly maintained French standard tracks, and without realtime computer adjustments.
> > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Bugatti+Railcars&t=osx&iax=images&ia=images
>
> I know all about the flexibility of truck frames being necessary to a point. You don't really believe that John knows anything about that, that he doesn't find on Google do you?

Be very surprised if that ever happened. I was just stirring the pot, hoping to encourage the resident mental and moral midget to strive for a higher standard.

>The Japanese maintain a spotless record for the Bullet Trains in one clear manner - extreme attention to detail of maintenance and inspection of the track and train.

I thought that was the likely reason. It often is, in Japan. The Japanese understand that the good is the enemy of the best, and that "good enough" is a crime against craftsmanship and intelligence.

>I haven't seen this anywhere in America. BART would allow the tracks to almost wear out in the turn in the Bay tunnel before they would replace them. That they didn't derail was only because they were careful to replace the rails before they broke and not before they weren't on the very verge of doing so. BART has had several derailments and it is luck alone that the only derailment of a train on a skyway was on a train that was out of service and returning to the repair yard.

I rode the train once from NY to Washington DC, and it wasn't an inspiring experience. The Canadians do trains so much better. South Africa also had one grand luxe train, the Blue Train, which was tip-top because a lot of politicians used it to travel between the seat of parliament in Cape Town and the administrative centre in Pretoria, a thousand miles away. You could get a superior meal and a great bottle of wine (from the vineyards and wineries of my relatives) on it.

Andre Jute
Nostalgia isn't an unalloyed pleasure. I'm old enough to remember when a job on the railways was something a man announced with pride. Now, not so much.

Jeff Liebermann

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May 16, 2021, 11:45:14 PM5/16/21
to
On Mon, 17 May 2021 01:41:22 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

>Bicycle...okay, now I'm legal.
>
>Re: traintalk...and I wish I could take one from Aptos to Santa Cruz

Santa Cruz Rail Corridor or the Coastal Rail Trail:
<https://sccrtc.org/projects/rail/>
<https://sccrtc.org/projects/multi-modal/monterey-bay-sanctuary-scenic-trail/city-of-santa-cruz-coastal-rail-trail-project/>
No trains or bicycles for now, but you can always get a rail bike:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=rail+bike&tbm=isch>
or make your own:
<https://goodtimes.sc/santa-cruz-news/man-rail-bikes/>
<https://makezine.com/2012/04/30/no-weld-rail-bike-conversion/>
Yet another (bicycle) project.

>or where ever right now....just like in a civilized country.
>(Maybe John S. can tell us about trains in Thailand, if any.)
>
>Here's a link to "The History Guy" where he talks about the gauge being
>changed over in the US (or part of) in little more than a day....
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v81Gwu6BTE

Thanks. I saw that video previously but watched it again. If we had
to do all that today, it would take about 30 years of meetings, cost
billions of dollars, get stuck in endless courtroom battles, and
require a warehouse full of documents, paperwork, studies, and
reports. Like the SF Bay Bridge, it would also need major rework to
fix quality problems.

John B.

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May 17, 2021, 4:45:06 AM5/17/21
to
On Mon, 17 May 2021 01:41:22 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

Yes they moved the rails in a two day period but they spent 4 months
getting ready for the big day even to the extent of driving inside
rail spikes for the new dimension so all that was required was
levering out the old inner spikes, moving one rail and driving new
outer spikes.


--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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May 17, 2021, 4:45:09 AM5/17/21
to
On Sun, 16 May 2021 09:32:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>There are very few places in the world that have both the width and weight capacity to move something like that. We can certainly count out John's supposed employment in the Java steel mill. As I said, those steel loads often exceed 50 tons or more and the roads turn to gravel and then mud in places like the tropics where Java is situated. He just "accidentally" forgot to mention that since they didn't have a dock right there on the Sunda Staits, there was a railroad servicing the mill.

Nope Tommy, when I worked at Krakatau Steel Plant there was no dock
and no railroad.

See Tommy, if you had researched the subject before you started
yammering on about things you would have discovered that the plant
was started by the Russians in 1962 and then when the anti-communist
(political turmoil they now call it) riots occurred, in 1965, the
Russians pulled up stakes and left. The Project was restarted in 1971
(I believe) and when I was there in about 1975 the first electric
powered melting devices were being installed. In 1976 Pertamina went
broke and the steel mill, which they were funding, sort of closed down
and our contract was terminated so I went to work in the jungle :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Rolf Mantel

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May 17, 2021, 6:44:17 AM5/17/21
to
Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:

> Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
> standard gauge instead of something wider.

To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard Gauge
instead of something narrower". Traditional Japanese trains have Cape
Gauge. Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was necessary for
HST, so they aligned with the international standards.

German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
existing track into existing reailway stations. However, the first
generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase travel
comfort. The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there were
building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE, like the
French TGV, stick to the international standards, even though they
mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed tracks.

Russia decided to have their ICE-derived High-speed trains on the
existing wide-gauge track between Moscow and St Petersburg, so Siemens
had to build a wide-gauge variant.

Spain decided to build their high-speed network on standard gauge rather
than on the typical Spaish wide-gauge to enable trains running from
Spain to France, so in Spain high-speed trains have a narrower gauge
than normal trains.

Rolf

Tom Kunich

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May 17, 2021, 10:31:18 AM5/17/21
to
As I've been noting, you don't know a damn thing that you don't read on Google. You can't make steel without fresh water so your bullshit about working there is just that. How was anything "off-loaded" at the docks if it wasn't taken there somehow? You can't find "spindle" on Google so you don't know what it is and if you worked in a steel plant you would. Around the steel plant near my house was a freshwater swamp because they would dump the water after processing into the marsh which completely changes the nature of the marshland. Take your bullshit elsewhere.

Tom Kunich

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May 17, 2021, 10:37:11 AM5/17/21
to
Tell us you dumb asshole - what is this? https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/krakatau-steel-plant-tour Docks and spindles of steel and water used in the processing of the steel. "Well it wasn't that way when I worked there. Duhhhh". It isn't as if steel mills the entire world over aren't exactly the same.

Tom Kunich

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May 17, 2021, 10:41:07 AM5/17/21
to
Thanks for that information. And the wider gauge isn't nearly wide enough in my opinion. High speed rail doesn't have the problem of turn radius effecting track length if you're starting from scratch because you can bank the turns making the radius of the rails about the same length.

Rolf Mantel

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May 17, 2021, 12:07:53 PM5/17/21
to
As you rely on being able to stop on the line and you need to take into
account that passenger are allowed to walk inside the train, you cannot
bank a 200mph line like a roller-coaster.

In Germany, we allow a maximum bank of 160mm (i.e. bank angle = inv sin
(160/1435) ) and a maximum lateral acceleration of 0.85 m/s, resulting
in a minimum radius of just over 4000m at 300 kph.

Rolf

sms

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May 17, 2021, 12:44:02 PM5/17/21
to
On 5/17/2021 3:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 16.05.2021 um 04:16 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>
>> Tom was wondering why the track gauge for HSR (high speed rail) was a
>> standard gauge instead of something wider.
>
> To be honest, the famous Japanes "bullet" trains have "standard Gauge
> instead of something narrower".  Traditional Japanese trains have Cape
> Gauge.  Japan decided a completely new infrastructure was necessary for
> HST, so they aligned with the international standards.
>
> German ICE trains are Standard Gague in order to be able to re-use
> existing track into existing reailway stations.  However, the first
> generation ICE trains had wider than standard bodies to increase travel
> comfort.  The hassle of the 'L1-excessive width' when there were
> building activities ensured that the second Generation ICE, like the
> French TGV, stick to the international standards, even though they
> mostly (but not completely) run on bespoke high-speed tracks.

LOL, none of this is possible because our resident expert who claims to
know everything about everything, but in reality knows little aboyut
anything, claimed that high speed rail requires wider spacing.

In fact, the only HSR that uses wider gauge are in some countries where
their regular trains also use wider spacing, like Russia.

Tom Kunich

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May 17, 2021, 12:56:09 PM5/17/21
to
Banking properly made does not increase the g forces on any passengers. These are not roller coasters.

Tom Kunich

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May 17, 2021, 12:57:26 PM5/17/21
to
Scharf, you have never told us what your education and experience are in. Seem to me that you appear to be the resident expert without a shred of experience,.

Jeff Liebermann

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May 17, 2021, 1:01:30 PM5/17/21
to
On Mon, 17 May 2021 07:37:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tell us you dumb asshole - what is this? https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/krakatau-steel-plant-tour Docks and spindles of steel and water used in the processing of the steel. "Well it wasn't that way when I worked there. Duhhhh". It isn't as if steel mills the entire world over aren't exactly the same.

Nice find. However, there's a problem:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakatau_Steel#Production_facilities>
"Krakatau Steel has six production plants..." You can see which plant
is shown in each image by clicking on the image. For example, the
small middle photo showing water dripping down onto a slab of hot
rolled steel is labeled:
"A steel slab runs through the laminar cooling process in the hot
strip mill area of the PT Krakatau Steel plant in Cilegon, Banten
province, Indonesia, on Thursday, Feb. 21, 2013."

While you are correct that large amounts of water is used in steel
production, most of it is re-used:
<https://www.ispatguru.com/water-used-in-steel-plant-and-its-types/>
"Enormous quantity of water is needed at every stage of production.
Less than 10% of this water is actually consumed and balance water is
usually is returned to the system."
It's like a water fountain closed system. Lots of water moving, but
little is lost. The article goes no to describe typical uses for
water in what I presume is a typical steel mill.

Trivia: I attended college in Pomona, California. Nearby was the
Kaiser Steel plant in Fontana. At the time, it was one of the largest
steel plants in the US and made much of the steel used during WWII for
ship building:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Steel>
If you look at a map of the Fontana area, you might notice that there
are no nearby waterways capable of moving large quantities of ore or
steel:
<https://goo.gl/maps/ZxuVt581zSzZ8j1r5>
The nearby Santa Ana River is dry most of the year. However, if you
look at the rail map of the Fontana area:
<https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=010cb07a67a4437f9db5e72090adb0dc>
you might notice that there are quite a few nearby railroads going E-W
and N-S.

sms

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May 17, 2021, 1:45:36 PM5/17/21
to
On 5/17/2021 10:01 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> While you are correct that large amounts of water is used in steel
> production, most of it is re-used:
> <https://www.ispatguru.com/water-used-in-steel-plant-and-its-types/>
> "Enormous quantity of water is needed at every stage of production.
> Less than 10% of this water is actually consumed and balance water is
> usually is returned to the system."
> It's like a water fountain closed system. Lots of water moving, but
> little is lost. The article goes no to describe typical uses for
> water in what I presume is a typical steel mill.

Yes, some people (or at least one person) don't/doesn't understand that
water used for cooling in industrial processes is not used up or sent
down into the sewer, it's cooled and re-used, though a small amount is
lost to evaporation. In the past, it made sense for steel mills to be
near rivers so the finished product could be more easily shipped out,
see
<http://www.brooklineconnection.com/history/Facts/images/steelmills1.JPG>.

The situation with fountains, and droughts, was annoying. A lot of
fountains were turned off because someone thought that someone else
might think that water was being "wasted" though very little is actually
lost to evaporation, and in the scheme of things, the actual losses were
lost in the noise compared to uses like farming of water-intensive crops.

sms

unread,
May 17, 2021, 2:12:44 PM5/17/21
to
On 5/17/2021 9:07 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

<snip>

> As you rely on being able to stop on the line and you need to take into
> account that passenger are allowed to walk inside the train, you cannot
> bank a 200mph line like a roller-coaster.
>
> In Germany, we allow a maximum bank of 160mm (i.e. bank angle = inv sin
> (160/1435) ) and a maximum lateral acceleration of 0.85 m/s, resulting
> in a minimum radius of just over 4000m at 300 kph.

Since the HSR systems are usually completely separate from freight or
lower-speed trains, the countries building them certainly had the
opportunity to go to a wider gauge than what they were using for their
other railways. But none did. There was no upside in doing so. Russia
uses a wider gauge for both regular rail and HSR. The turn radii
minimums are longer for HSR, but that would be the case regardless of
the gauge. New TGV construction is 7000m, older construction is 4000m,
same as in Germany.

Tom really needs to embark on a world tour to explain to all these
countries why they need to rebuild all their HSR lines to a wider gauge.

AMuzi

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May 17, 2021, 2:19:16 PM5/17/21
to
But the German government considered angle when stopped.

Too high and the beer glasses would slide off the tables.
Can't have that! Let's get a design limit in writing!

Frank Krygowski

unread,
May 17, 2021, 2:55:58 PM5/17/21
to
On 5/17/2021 1:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> Trivia: I attended college in Pomona, California. Nearby was the
> Kaiser Steel plant in Fontana. At the time, it was one of the largest
> steel plants in the US and made much of the steel used during WWII for
> ship building:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Steel>
> If you look at a map of the Fontana area, you might notice that there
> are no nearby waterways capable of moving large quantities of ore or
> steel:
> <https://goo.gl/maps/ZxuVt581zSzZ8j1r5>
> The nearby Santa Ana River is dry most of the year. However, if you
> look at the rail map of the Fontana area:
> <https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=010cb07a67a4437f9db5e72090adb0dc>
> you might notice that there are quite a few nearby railroads going E-W
> and N-S.

The same is true of the many steel mills that formed the basis of
northeast Ohio's economy until the 1970s.

For many years, one congressman lobbied for a major new shipping canal
to connect the Ohio River with the Great Lakes. It never came to pass;
but the reason for the proposal was that the pertinent rivers were not
useful for shipping, despite what Tom seems to think.

--
- Frank Krygowski

sms

unread,
May 17, 2021, 3:12:50 PM5/17/21
to
On 5/17/2021 11:19 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Too high and the beer glasses would slide off the tables. Can't have
> that! Let's get a design limit in writing!

They solved that issue long ago with special tables, i.e.
<https://shop4seats.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/h/cherry-w-pl.jpg>


jbeattie

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May 17, 2021, 4:05:52 PM5/17/21
to
Additional low-cost option: https://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/glass-bev-12-1-4oz-slanted-pisa-6083079

-- Jay Beattie.
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