Krygowski and his misconceptions

[Tom Kunich]

Idiotic things that Krygowski loves to say - He is agaoinst the 2nd Amendment to "save the children" Despite about 1% of yearly gun deaths being from rifles and far less by AR14's.

They have been able to call most of these gun deaths as from "assault weapons" simply because they have purposely redefines "assault weapon" as any rifle with a detachable magazine which make most rifles in this category.

Saying enough to make you vomit - he thinks that motor vehicles which have the same fatality rates and are increasing more rapidly that guns, are useful objects and so worth forgiving their fatality rates. (40,000+ per year in the US.)

Then in a recent email I have had repeated to me one of his postings that says: "Yet the benefits of hospitals outweigh the detriments, by far." He has so little idea what he is talking about that I can easily see why my correspondent friend believes Frank so foolish. Most people hospitalized could be treated more effectively at home if they have someone there. Hospitals are responsible each year for over 200,000 preventable deaths from treatment errors.

Now compare 200,000 to the combined total of 80,000 gun and vehicle deaths and that gives you some idea of just how deadly hospitals can be.

Now certainly hospitalizations and automobiles are necessary for some things but it is also estimated that over 2/3rds of homicides are prevented by private citizens compared to cops who are NEVER at a crime scene as Catrike showed with his ever lengthening string.

If Krygowski had a shred of dignity he would cease posting his increasingly outlandish idiocy. But then that is what makes Frank, Frank.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:20:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote ... so much nonsense! It's hard to limit my response. But I'll try.

> Idiotic things that Krygowski loves to say - ...he thinks that motor vehicles which have the same fatality rates and are increasing more rapidly that guns, are useful objects and so worth forgiving their fatality rates. (40,000+ per year in the US.)

Tom, do you find a car useful enough to own? How about your various family members - do they use cars very much?

By comparison, how about AR-style rifles? As I recall you manage to get along without one. So does John, and almost everyone I know.
That seems to indicate they are not nearly as useful as cars. They're certainly far from essential.

In fact, they are just "big boy's toys" that are periodically used to kill bunches of innocent people. To me, that disadvantage greatly outweighs
their real usefulness, since that real usefulness is zero.

> Then in a recent email I have had repeated to me one of his postings ...

Oh, bullshit! Quit pretending you don't read what's posted here. If you didn't want to read it here, why would you read it when your
imaginary friend emailed it?

> that says: "Yet the benefits of hospitals outweigh the detriments, by far." He has so little idea what he is talking about that I can easily see why my correspondent friend believes Frank so foolish. Most people hospitalized could be treated more effectively at home if they have someone there. Hospitals are responsible each year for over 200,000 preventable deaths from treatment errors.

You don't find hospitals useful? How odd. As I recall, you once cut off one of your toes with your lawnmower. (True story, folks!) Please tell us
where you went to get that treated. Did you just apply a Band-aid?

You've talked about crashes and serious concussions that left you brain damaged. Where were you taken when that happened?

I thought I remembered other instances where your family members were hospitalized. Perhaps I'm mistaken about that. But I'll note that I've
been hospitalized several times in my life. So has my wife, at least one of my kids, at least one of my grandkids. Some of those instances would
have resulted in fatalities without the hospital.

But if you think the benefits of hospitals do not outweigh their detriments, I _strongly_ urge you to never enter one again, no matter what
happens to you. It would indicate you live and die by your principles.

- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:20:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> <his usual idiotic screed (read above in its entirety if you wish)>

On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 11:09:54 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/986D_mm3Twk/m/NTbOFqXWAQAJ
>
> This Group would be a far better place without the Stupid five..
> The cite would return to information MOSTLY but not entirely about bicycles as it was when Jobst moderated it.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

And if tommy had a shred of decency....well, I guess _that_ ship sank when they launched it.....

[Tim R]

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:20:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Idiotic things that Krygowski loves to say - He is agaoinst the 2nd Amendment to "save the children" Despite about 1% of yearly gun deaths being from rifles and far less by AR14's.
>

While I don't agree with the intense focus on one firearm, there is a related manner in which the approach has some impact, I won't get into at the moment.

What he is absolutely 100% correct on is that the US has way too many homicides per capita population - way more than civilized countries, of which the US marginally qualifies it seems.

So - Tom, what is your solution? And don't give us garbage about more guns being the answer - we have 200 million in circulation now.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Try 400 million...(397 million in 2021)
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us-gun-culture-world-comparison-intl-cmd/index.html

[Tom Kunich]

Tim,

We do not succeed at reducing crime by making it more expensive and difficult to live. My home sold to my mother (with my money) for $76,000. It is now worth $980,000 sight unseen. Working people cannot buy a home and rent is more expensive than house payments. The Democrats answer is to increase taxes to unbearable levels so that all of the people with money leave Democrat areas unless they are tied there for some reason. I would be living in Nevada or Arizona were it not for the children that are stuck here.

You do not make it more difficult to protect yourself with gun laws that by their very definition have no effect on criminals. You reduce the incentives to commit crimes. I hope you understand that means that you do not release murderers from prison without parole or give them early release.

Do you want to reduce crime? You make living EASIER not purposely harder. Every single road that crosses the hills except ONE on which a freeway crosses and has a frontage road are closed with massive damage. People voted a 12 cent per gallon increase in gas taxes TO REPAIR THE ROADS! What did our Democrat government do with that money? They gave themselves wage increases. Seeing this do you suppose that the lower classes give one damn about anyone else? And since they all tend to congregate in the run down areas where it is cheaper to live, the crime is most often against themselves. Anger will out and the Democrats use this anger to garner votes and are content to have this anger.

Guns are NOT the problem. Inequality is and most of that inequality is generated by the government in order to give them campaign issues.

Blacks have unequal access to health care? Bullshit - they CAN'T AFFORD IT. My dental work went from $1,800 for a permanent replacement to $6,200 in less than 12 months. How the hell can a man making $18/hr afford that with taxes so high? On one side of me I have 8 illegals living in a 3 bedroom home with 2 children. They have 4 cars parked outside with two of them in the lawn. My PG&E bill that used to be very high at $280 just came in at $320. What do you suppose the neighbors are doing since it takes so many of them to pay the rent?

Fauci paid for Gain of Function research in China with OUR money and became the highest paid public official. He got two consecutive Presidents to give legal protection to the vaccine pharmaceutical companies and they in turn gave a HALF BILLION DOLLARS to the entire management of the government health establishment. Does that give you the slightest feeling that they are protecting YOUR interests?

Let me explain something to you that I have understood from 40 years practice in medical science - HOW did they know that their Gain-of-Function research succeeded? I will tell you - they chose a virus that caused little real effects in normal healthy people other than cold-like symptoms. They increased the infectious rate some 10,000 times. Then they purposely released it to test if their work was effective. This was probably in northern Italy via a huge number of Chinese workers there for construction projects. Unfortunately that area also has the greatest number of old people with heart disease between the US, GB and EU. So obviously unexpectedly, it caused massive numbers of early deaths.

Who should you actually trust? The Biden government that gave us the deadly vaccines via faulty mRNA process? Or the Republican subcommittee that asked the Pfizer official if they had tested the vaccines to see if people receiving it could still transmit the disease (To be told "NO!").

Perhaps when I talk with such certainty it makes you think that I'm just bullshitting. But I have been in the highest places of power and seen what morons there are there. My earliest project was designing and programming a microtitration device to discover the cause of AIDS which was a REAL full blown pandemic killing mostly straight people via blood transfusions. In the meeting to discuss such a process there were TWO PhD's that claimed that the project could not be done except using TWO IBM supercomputers. I completed the project initially with an Intel 8008 and later changed it to an 8080.

In the intervening years I have designed and programmed so many medical instruments that you CANNOT be admitted to an emergency hospital without them using one of those instruments or later generations of them.

Or you can listen to someone as stupid as Krygowski who could never rise above the level of teacher or Flunky with his extremely questionable claims of being an engineer or Lieberman who is such an expert engineer that he never succeeded in the hottest job market for engineers in the entire world. He has made a living as a printer technician. ALL of these people held real jobs and were a benefit to society. But none of them can even begin to even understand what I did.

Am I being egotistical? I suppose I am. I was born a Slav and they were not well accepted and my education was so stunted that I was so bored that I joined the Air Force. Why was this when I had an IQ of 145? In some ways this was good since I was given all of the shop classes and began working after school jobs at the age of 14. I am proud of what I have accomplished and what I have given to society for my success.

So do I have an answer for all of society's ills? No, but doing what has been shown NOT to work is the very definition of stupidity.

[AMuzi]

When asked on WIND radio Friday what he would do about
crime, Dr Willie Wilson (my preferred Chicago mayoral
candidate even though I can't vote in Chicago - I'm not dead
yet) replied, "First thing I'll do is take the handcuffs off
the police and put them on the crooks."

One man's opinion. In today's political environment, a real
outlier as well.

We've tried literally everything else so why the heck not?

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

But, but, but.... Black lives matter!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 09:58:19 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us-gun-culture-world-comparison-intl-cmd/index.html

I read the reference above... and The Falkland Islands has the second
most guns per capita in the world, second to the U.S

Then I looked up the crime rate in the Falkland Islands and I find
that
https://www.nationnews.com/2012/10/06/low-crime-in-the-falklands/
"Chief of Police Barry Marsden told regional journalists on a one week
tour that the crime rate is extremely low.
“The reality is we don’t have murders for years and years, we don’t
have burglaries, we don’t have violence of any great extreme, we don’t
robberies, ”

So, is there a relationship between gun ownership and crime?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:44:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>...my education was so stunted that I was so bored that I joined the Air Force. Why was this when I had an IQ of 145?

09/18/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/H5UQas_9HLA/m/p9rFmANKBgAJ>
"I dropped out of the city college because it was adding absolutely
nothing to my career goals and wasn't that more important? Having a
piece of paper saying that I could read and write would have allowed
me to assume a VP position in my company. But I was perfectly
satisfied being an engineer and project leader."

IQ = Mental Age / Chronological Age * 100
In order to maintain the same IQ as you had in high skool, you would
need to improve your mental age (test score results) as you age.
Answering similar questions today and producing the same score that
you had in high skool, would result in a lower IQ today. I judge
people by their "willingness and ability to learn new things" which
fits in nicely with the definition of IQ. I should probably append
"and the ability to ask intelligent questions".

These might help:
"How Do You Interpret The IQ Test Scores?"
<https://www.iqtestexperts.com/iq-scores.php>

"Does IQ decrease with age?"
<https://metafact.io/factcheck_answers/2355>
Note the section on the effects of aging. A normal IQ = 100 at ages
20-24 decreases to a normal IQ = 70 at age 75 and up.

Your alleged IQ score of 145 puts you in the genius category:
Over 140 - Genius or almost genius
120 - 140 - Very superior intelligence
110 - 119 - Superior intelligence
90 - 109 - Average or normal intelligence
80 - 89 - Dullness
70 - 79 - Borderline deficiency in intelligence
Under 70 - Feeble-mindedness

From what I've seen of your ability to answer questions, ask
intelligent questions and understand the answers offered, you are
hardly a genius worthy of an IQ = 145.




--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:44:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>So do I have an answer for all of society's ills? No, but doing what has been shown NOT to work is the very definition of stupidity.

I keep this list of premature judgments on the wall next to my desk
for various reasons.
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
One of them is to remind me to verify past failures before assuming
that something really has failed. Another is to distrust those who
proclaim that past failures are a guarantee of future failures.

For example, Michelson and Morley demonstrated that the speed of light
does NOT change when rotated either along or inline with the
luminiferous aether drift. Case closed and a failed experiment.
However, that hasn't prevented numerous scientists from repeating the
measurement in numerous interesting ways for the last 135 years.
"Michelson-Morley experiment"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment>

Failures have a tendency to be time sensitive. Something that didn't
work a few years ago, might work perfectly well today. It's a matter
of understanding changing conditions, such as economic climate,
interest rates, potential competition, legislative obstacles, need,
etc.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 16:42:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>For example, Michelson and Morley demonstrated that the speed of light
>does NOT change when rotated either along or inline with the
>luminiferous aether drift.

Oops. That should be "rotate inline or perpendicular to the
luminiferous aether drift".

[AMuzi]

I have no idea how many people in Thailand self identify as
'black' but here, among my friends and associates, they're
more upset and more vocal about increased crime with
decreased prosecutions than not black people generally.

[AMuzi]

Apples and oranges are both roughly spherical. After that
not so much.

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, that's a simplistic answer by a politician, something lots of your
end of the political spectrum tends to view skeptically. And it's
certainly not the first time it's been heard.

But as to why the heck not: Any such plan has to fit within the legal
framework established by prior law and relevant court cases. It's pretty
unusual for one politician to be able to sidestep all that.

And as often noted here, what do you do with the handcuffed suspect or
perpetrator? Slap him in jail? There's obvious economic justification
for bail, even though many hate it.

If convicted, put him in prison? But we not infrequently run out of
prison space; and building more would mean <gasp!> raising taxes. Worse,
despite having an outsized portion of our population in prison or having
been in prison, we have higher crime rates than many countries that do
far less imprisoning. Perhaps we should examine what they do right and
we do wrong?

Simplistic sayings work kind of like caffeine plus sugar. They're good
for a quick bump, but not much good for the long term.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

I was, admittedly, being rather sarcastic abut a group that seems,
from reading the news, to complain the most about the handcuffs.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Falklands have a tiny population, and mostly rural though I’d assume the
guns are for protecting from Argentina, as they have both MOD presence and
local defenders.

Some of the Nordic for similar reasons have large gun numbers, though this
is due to Russia.

Those are more comparable to USA, yet the numbers are far reduced, which
suggests it’s not just gun ownership and also USA is a outlier.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 16:42:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 10:44:19 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>So do I have an answer for all of society's ills? No, but doing what has been shown NOT to work is the very definition of stupidity.
>
>I keep this list of premature judgments on the wall next to my desk
>for various reasons.
><http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt>
>One of them is to remind me to verify past failures before assuming
>that something really has failed. Another is to distrust those who
>proclaim that past failures are a guarantee of future failures.
>
>For example, Michelson and Morley demonstrated that the speed of light
>does NOT change when rotated either along or inline with the
>luminiferous aether drift. Case closed and a failed experiment.
>However, that hasn't prevented numerous scientists from repeating the
>measurement in numerous interesting ways for the last 135 years.
>"Michelson-Morley experiment"
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment>
>
>Failures have a tendency to be time sensitive. Something that didn't
>work a few years ago, might work perfectly well today. It's a matter
>of understanding changing conditions, such as economic climate,
>interest rates, potential competition, legislative obstacles, need,
>etc.

+1

[John B.]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 08:33:24 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

>John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 09:58:19 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us-gun-culture-world-comparison-intl-cmd/index.html
>>
>> I read the reference above... and The Falkland Islands has the second
>> most guns per capita in the world, second to the U.S
>>
>> Then I looked up the crime rate in the Falkland Islands and I find
>> that
>> https://www.nationnews.com/2012/10/06/low-crime-in-the-falklands/
>> "Chief of Police Barry Marsden told regional journalists on a one week
>> tour that the crime rate is extremely low.

>> ?The reality is we don?t have murders for years and years, we don?t
>> have burglaries, we don?t have violence of any great extreme, we don?t
>> robberies, ?

>>
>> So, is there a relationship between gun ownership and crime?
>
>Falklands have a tiny population, and mostly rural though I’d assume the
>guns are for protecting from Argentina, as they have both MOD presence and
>local defenders.
>
>Some of the Nordic for similar reasons have large gun numbers, though this
>is due to Russia.
>
>Those are more comparable to USA, yet the numbers are far reduced, which
>suggests it’s not just gun ownership and also USA is a outlier.
>
>Roger Merriman

Certainly the U.S. is outlier. One of only three countries of the 195
countries in the world to guarantee the citizens right to keep and
bear arms.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

WHAT? Krygowski is a against SPDs *AND* caffeine?

[AMuzi]

Not the overwhelming majority of normal working Americans of
any and all flavors.

[AMuzi]

On 1/17/2023 2:33 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023 09:58:19 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us-gun-culture-world-comparison-intl-cmd/index.html
>>
>> I read the reference above... and The Falkland Islands has the second
>> most guns per capita in the world, second to the U.S
>>
>> Then I looked up the crime rate in the Falkland Islands and I find
>> that
>> https://www.nationnews.com/2012/10/06/low-crime-in-the-falklands/
>> "Chief of Police Barry Marsden told regional journalists on a one week
>> tour that the crime rate is extremely low.

>> “The reality is we don’t have murders for years and years, we don’t
>> have burglaries, we donÂ’t have violence of any great extreme, we donÂ’t
>> robberies, ”

>>
>> So, is there a relationship between gun ownership and crime?
>

> Falklands have a tiny population, and mostly rural though I’d assume the

> guns are for protecting from Argentina, as they have both MOD presence and
> local defenders.
>
> Some of the Nordic for similar reasons have large gun numbers, though this
> is due to Russia.
>
> Those are more comparable to USA, yet the numbers are far reduced, which

> suggests it’s not just gun ownership and also USA is a outlier.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Better comparison would perhaps be Mexico with extremely
restrictive laws regarding firearms.

[Tim R]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 4:10:19 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> When asked on WIND radio Friday what he would do about
> crime, Dr Willie Wilson (my preferred Chicago mayoral
> candidate even though I can't vote in Chicago - I'm not dead
> yet) replied, "First thing I'll do is take the handcuffs off
> the police and put them on the crooks."
>
> One man's opinion. In today's political environment, a real
> outlier as well.
>
> We've tried literally everything else so why the heck not?
>

So basically your answer is get tough on crime.

And we haven't tried that? That has been the number one answer basically forever (well, since Bentham's flawed analysis of crime back in the 1800s.) The US prison population has quintupled since I worked in corrections. Quintupled! We incarcerate a higher percentage of our citizens than even totalitarian countries.

It doesn't work. It will never work.

[Tim R]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 1:44:21 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Tim,
>
> We do not succeed at reducing crime by making it more expensive and difficult to live.

> Guns are NOT the problem. Inequality is and most of that inequality is generated by the government in order to give them campaign issues.
>

And that's why you voted for a billionaire who gave all his rich friends tax cuts, greatly increasing both inequality and government debt?

Inequality is not generated by government to give them campaign issues, it is generated by an economic system that includes the richest small percent controlling government policy. It's the other way around.

We live in the richest country in the world, and can't afford to repair the roads (which by the way was part of the infrastructure campaign promise of the last President, whose party had both Senate and House the first two years - one of his agendas I totally supported, but of course it became unimportant once elected). That's largely because we protect the rich from paying their share.

[Roger Merriman]

More Canada as though doesn’t have the numbers per capita of guns of USA is
still within the top 10 where as Mexico is way down the list!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

John doesn't have a black crime problem because the population includes a vanishingly small percentage of blacks and those are almost all upper class.

[Tom Kunich]

How many times have you been shot?

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, try to know what you're talking about before you hit the return key. Criminals have been a problem since the very first civilizations millennia ago. Every civilization has found that the only way to treat criminals is to punish them. Your pretense that this somehow started with the US is ignorance of top quality. Try some other smart assed misconnections.

[Tom Kunich]

So you've been suckered in like every Democrat? You don't know even a passing understanding about economics but you're willing to pretend you do because CNN tells you so?

Obviously you're talking about Biden because he is extremely rich by passing laws that handed over tax breaks for his own supporters. Tell us how he was paying $50,000/mth to rent a home from Hunter Biden? Hunter himself has said that he had positions on the boards of Chinese energy companies because he was selling Biden's influence. Do you have even a passing understanding of what elected public officials make? As VP he was making something like $225,000 year. How was he paying Hunter $50,000/mth ? (BTW - this is the same place that the Top Secret documents were found) Biden has made a point of selling influence to the highest bidder and has become a multimillionaire in office,

Trump's tax breaks for rich people were directed - you had to MAKE jobs to be eligible. This brought jobs back from Mexico to the USA.

Now that the Democrats have illegally taken away Trump's Constitutional rights by seizing his tax documents he turns out to be the ONLY high office politician in modern history to LOSE money in office. So why don't you pack up your leftist crap and talk about things you actually know about?

[Roger Merriman]

Zero as expected as my chance of being shot are very low for all sorts of
reasons, be that where I live and work and who I am and so on.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Functional:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/press-release-mayor-giuliani-cleaned-new-york-city


Dysfunctional:
https://cwbchicago.com/2019/11/chief-judge-says-there-have-been-no-horrible-incidents-under-his-affordable-bail-program-these-people-might-disagree-if-they-only-they-were-still-alive.html

Widespread criticism produced... more of the same:
https://cwbchicago.com/?s=while+on+bail

[Tom Kunich]

Then why are you putting your opinions in on this since the people talking about this have 1/100th the chance of being shot as I have? If I think that my chances are infinitesimal why would you worry about it? Most murders are black on black crime. And that gives black people the unconditional right to protect themselves. And by the first amendment every other one of us.,

[AMuzi]

There was a case of a politician reducing tax rates for
upper income earners only?? Solely? Without legislation?
When? If that happened I'm fascinated, tell me more.

The usual path is carve outs, credits, refundable credits,
depreciation schedules and the myriad mysteries deep in the
tax code plus associated IRS rulings and prior IRS
administrative case law. It's more complex than you might
imagine and for good reason - every line, every phrase is
there because of some shakedown or some 'gift' to someone,
accrued over the years. Crooked? absolutely? Inefficient?
certainly.

But it's at net among the most egregiously 'progressive'
systems on this Earth:
https://taxfoundation.org/average-federal-tax-rates-income-group/

Your top earners, those 'evil' 1%, pay a third of _all_
Federal income tax. What the hell do you want? What's 'enough'?

[AMuzi]

Sorry linked chart was misleading. That shows a 33% net
effective rate.

It's 37% of all Federal tax revenue (not a third).
correct link here:

https://taxfoundation.org/america-progressive-tax-system/

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/17/2023 3:33 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Falklands have a tiny population, and mostly rural though I’d assume the
> guns are for protecting from Argentina, as they have both MOD presence and
> local defenders.
>
> Some of the Nordic for similar reasons have large gun numbers, though this
> is due to Russia.

Hmm. Those sound closer to "well regulated militias" instead of, say, a
culture of gun fetishists with Rambo fantasies.

Just saying...

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

A well regulated militia would be government run, Dummy.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/17/2023 9:04 AM, Tim R wrote:
>
> Inequality is not generated by government to give them campaign issues, it is generated by an economic system that includes the richest small percent controlling government policy. It's the other way around.
>
> We live in the richest country in the world, and can't afford to repair the roads (which by the way was part of the infrastructure campaign promise of the last President, whose party had both Senate and House the first two years - one of his agendas I totally supported, but of course it became unimportant once elected). That's largely because we protect the rich from paying their share.

Actually, a year or two before Trump's term of office, all the
residential streets in our surrounding township got nicely repaved. Then
the streets within the village (a separate political entity) got
repaved, paid for at least in part by a new local levy. I don't keep
detailed track of such things, but it seemed more than a coincidence
that both jurisdictions did this about the same time. I assumed that
some relatively new government funding was helpful, if not entirely
responsible.

In any case, it made much of our utility riding much more pleasant.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 10:27:04 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > So basically your answer is get tough on crime.
> >
> > And we haven't tried that? That has been the number one answer basically forever (well, since Bentham's flawed analysis of crime back in the 1800s.)

> Your pretense that this somehow started with the US is ignorance of top quality. Try some other smart assed misconnections.

Bentham. British philosopher, "economic" theory of crime. Born 1748 died 1832. Tell me again about ignorance?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/17/2023 11:33 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Your top earners, those 'evil' 1%, pay a third of _all_ Federal income
> tax. What the hell do you want? What's 'enough'?

"Enough" would be policies that reduce America's income and wealth
disparity to, say, the level of the prosperous European nations.

I think that would do more to reduce America's crime rate than would
exacerbating our already ridiculous incarceration rates.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

+1.


“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and
expecting different results.” - Albert Einstein

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

:-) Gosh, the guy who doesn't care a bit about my opinions waited an
entire six minutes to respond to me!

Maybe if he waited an hour or so he could come up with something
intelligent to say? But I'm not hopeful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 12:14:22 PM UTC-5, timoth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Tell me again about ignorance?

You're talking to tommy - you don't have that kinda time....

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 4:10:19 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> When asked on WIND radio Friday what he would do about
> crime, Dr Willie Wilson (my preferred Chicago mayoral
> candidate even though I can't vote in Chicago - I'm not dead
> yet) replied, "First thing I'll do is take the handcuffs off
> the police and put them on the crooks."
>

Haven't you learned to read an article before quoting the headlines? Willie Wilsons political stances are pretty much diametrically opposed to yours.
He seems pretty hung up on race....

FRom https://www.chicagotribune.com/politics/elections/ct-willie-wilson-minority-voters-20221118-7evo3sz63vfqlimgivovthqurm-story.html

"Chicago mayoral candidate Willie Wilson called on the Illinois General Assembly Friday to improve the city’s voter access, particularly for Black and Latino residents, after what he said was dismal turnout in their communities during this month’s general election."

and from https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/1/28/18417307/willie-l-wilson-candidate-for-mayor

"Studies clearly show whites and blacks consume marijuana at similar rates, but African-Americans are far more likely to be arrested and charged for low-level pot possession than whites......Last year, 78 percent of those arrested for small amounts of weed were black, 17 percent were Hispanic, and only 4 percent were white—virtually the same percentages identified in Reader investigations from 2014 and 2011.....But just 59 people were arrested and charged with misdemeanor possession between when the law [marijuana decriminalization] took effect and the end of 2016—a dramatic drop that could signal the end of possession arrests in Chicago. Even within this population, however, about 80 percent were black.

"There are current no African American detectives in Chicago Police Homicide division......We must restructure the Chicago Police Department to a racial make up that closely reflects the citizen population including detective level and supervisory level personal."

Also from https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/1/28/18417307/willie-l-wilson-candidate-for-mayor

it seems he has no problems with Chicago and Illinois 'draconian' gun regulations:

"What should Chicago do to reduce the number of illegal guns?

Willie Wilson: Enforce existing laws."

Also from https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/1/28/18417307/willie-l-wilson-candidate-for-mayor.

It seems like he has no problem with a state-owned gambling enterprise

"My proposal is to locate a Citizen owned / professionally contract operated, casino with no hotel nor full service restaurant, (‘bar snacks only’), on land in the lakefront district."

Hmmmm...Is that some form of Capitalism that escaped the Poli-Sci textbooks? While we're on the subject of state-owned/funded programs, he seems pretty attached to the local welfare programs.....

https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2022/7/13/23209738/willie-wilson-speech-violent-crime-chicago-police-2023-mayor-election-cta-red-light-cameras

"Wilson also promised to make city assistance for Chicagoans who have lost their jobs a permanent part of the city budget. "No more pilot programs like the current guaranteed income test, which is giving 5,000 needy families $500 a month, no strings attached — but just for one year."

“We have to make sure that we have a safety net — put away X amount of dollars on a line item — that when someone gets poor, or like COVID-19 hits and you lose your job, we must have the money to help bridge the gap until they can get on their feet again.”

But what I find more intriguing about your positive view of him is his position on Trump

FRom https://abc7chicago.com/willie-wilson-duck-durbin-senate-campaign/5511659/
"In 2016, Wilson ran for president, but then dropped out and voted for Donald Trump. Still, he said, he's always been a Democrat. "I am not going to vote, nor will I ever vote again for President Trump," Wilson said."


Finally, this little tidbit from https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2022/7/13/23209738/willie-wilson-speech-violent-crime-chicago-police-2023-mayor-election-cta-red-light-cameras

"“If somebody don’t have food at home, what do you think they’re gonna do? Common sense. I would do the same thing. If I didn’t have food at home and nobody is gonna give it to me, I would go out and steal food myself. Being real,”

Smash-n-grab buffet?

I mean, after all, Wilson _was_ endorsed by BLM - but then you get what you pay for https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake-county-news-sun/ct-lns-black-lives-matter-milestone-donation-st-1116-20191115-55vawsu3xvdzhim5ycwavik2di-story.html

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Oh Frank, Now you're just being silly....

[Catrike Rider]

Fed money is helpful for Florida's bicycle trails, too.

[Catrike Rider]

Equity is when you make everybody poor.

[Catrike Rider]

liberal policies

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:23:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/17/2023 11:59 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:53:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/17/2023 3:33 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Falklands have a tiny population, and mostly rural though I’d assume the
>>>> guns are for protecting from Argentina, as they have both MOD presence and
>>>> local defenders.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the Nordic for similar reasons have large gun numbers, though this
>>>> is due to Russia.
>>>
>>> Hmm. Those sound closer to "well regulated militias" instead of, say, a
>>> culture of gun fetishists with Rambo fantasies.
>>>
>>> Just saying...
>>
>> A well regulated militia would be government run, Dummy.
>
>
>:-) Gosh, the guy who doesn't care a bit about my opinions waited an
>entire six minutes to respond to me!
>
>Maybe if he waited an hour or so he could come up with something
>intelligent to say? But I'm not hopeful.

Of course I really do enjoy hearing your nonsense opinions. They are
very entertaining.

[AMuzi]

If it were true I would not necessarily find it
objectionable. But is just is not true. Not at all.

https://morninganswerchicago.com/2022/09/21/phil-gramm-shares-his-new-book-the-myth-of-american-inequality/

Details in depth under $20:
https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=phil+gramm+myth&hs.x=0&hs.y=0

[AMuzi]

On 1/17/2023 11:39 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 4:10:19 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>
>> When asked on WIND radio Friday what he would do about
>> crime, Dr Willie Wilson (my preferred Chicago mayoral
>> candidate even though I can't vote in Chicago - I'm not dead
>> yet) replied, "First thing I'll do is take the handcuffs off
>> the police and put them on the crooks."
>>
>
> Haven't you learned to read an article before quoting the headlines? Willie Wilsons political stances are pretty much diametrically opposed to yours.
> He seems pretty hung up on race....
>
> FRom https://www.chicagotribune.com/politics/elections/ct-willie-wilson-minority-voters-20221118-7evo3sz63vfqlimgivovthqurm-story.html
>

> "Chicago mayoral candidate Willie Wilson called on the Illinois General Assembly Friday to improve the city’s voter access, particularly for Black and Latino residents, after what he said was dismal turnout in their communities during this month’s general election."
>
> and from https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/1/28/18417307/willie-l-wilson-candidate-for-mayor
>
> "Studies clearly show whites and blacks consume marijuana at similar rates, but African-Americans are far more likely to be arrested and charged for low-level pot possession than whites......Last year, 78 percent of those arrested for small amounts of weed were black, 17 percent were Hispanic, and only 4 percent were white—virtually the same percentages identified in Reader investigations from 2014 and 2011.....But just 59 people were arrested and charged with misdemeanor possession between when the law [marijuana decriminalization] took effect and the end of 2016—a dramatic drop that could signal the end of possession arrests in Chicago. Even within this population, however, about 80 percent were black.

>
> "There are current no African American detectives in Chicago Police Homicide division......We must restructure the Chicago Police Department to a racial make up that closely reflects the citizen population including detective level and supervisory level personal."
>
> Also from https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/1/28/18417307/willie-l-wilson-candidate-for-mayor
>
> it seems he has no problems with Chicago and Illinois 'draconian' gun regulations:
>
> "What should Chicago do to reduce the number of illegal guns?
>
> Willie Wilson: Enforce existing laws."
>
> Also from https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/1/28/18417307/willie-l-wilson-candidate-for-mayor.
>
> It seems like he has no problem with a state-owned gambling enterprise
>

> "My proposal is to locate a Citizen owned / professionally contract operated, casino with no hotel nor full service restaurant, (‘bar snacks only’), on land in the lakefront district."

>
> Hmmmm...Is that some form of Capitalism that escaped the Poli-Sci textbooks? While we're on the subject of state-owned/funded programs, he seems pretty attached to the local welfare programs.....
>
> https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2022/7/13/23209738/willie-wilson-speech-violent-crime-chicago-police-2023-mayor-election-cta-red-light-cameras
>

> "Wilson also promised to make city assistance for Chicagoans who have lost their jobs a permanent part of the city budget. "No more pilot programs like the current guaranteed income test, which is giving 5,000 needy families $500 a month, no strings attached — but just for one year."
>
> “We have to make sure that we have a safety net — put away X amount of dollars on a line item — that when someone gets poor, or like COVID-19 hits and you lose your job, we must have the money to help bridge the gap until they can get on their feet again.â€

>
> But what I find more intriguing about your positive view of him is his position on Trump
>
> FRom https://abc7chicago.com/willie-wilson-duck-durbin-senate-campaign/5511659/
> "In 2016, Wilson ran for president, but then dropped out and voted for Donald Trump. Still, he said, he's always been a Democrat. "I am not going to vote, nor will I ever vote again for President Trump," Wilson said."
>
>
> Finally, this little tidbit from https://chicago.suntimes.com/city-hall/2022/7/13/23209738/willie-wilson-speech-violent-crime-chicago-police-2023-mayor-election-cta-red-light-cameras
>

> "“If somebody don’t have food at home, what do you think they’re gonna do? Common sense. I would do the same thing. If I didn’t have food at home and nobody is gonna give it to me, I would go out and steal food myself. Being real,â€

>
> Smash-n-grab buffet?
>
> I mean, after all, Wilson _was_ endorsed by BLM - but then you get what you pay for https://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake-county-news-sun/ct-lns-black-lives-matter-milestone-donation-st-1116-20191115-55vawsu3xvdzhim5ycwavik2di-story.html
>

As in any election, the choice is not to find a replacement
for Mother Teresa.

The actual choice is among flawed candidates with failings
and foibles. He's the least scummy of the lot at this time.
Most of the rest could be described as dangerous.

Another term for Mayor Munchkin would be devastating.

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, pardon me for using the term "ignorance". But in case you were unaware if it is your belief that punishment swerves no purpose, then you've been watching too much television. Only 40% of non-violent offenders reoffend. And this is mostly because of their economic conditions. Since the Looney tune position that violent offenders are just poor unfortunates, they have had 60% recidivism.

Are you of the opinion that the economic reasons for crime in the 18th century are valid today?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 10:47:46 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> Trump's tax breaks for rich people were directed - you had to MAKE jobs to be eligible. This brought jobs back from Mexico to the USA.
>

Hey, stupid....
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/carrier-moves-jobs-to-mexico-despite-trump-s-big-talk-1002191635?op=1

[Roger Merriman]

More noting that, places like the Falklands have good reasons that they
need guns, ie they have been invaded in living memory.

Ie they are quite different in many ways to the USA even if they do also
have a lot of guns.

Same with any other countries it’s the USA that is the Outlier.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

So, "living memory" in some manner is better than historical fact? Our Constitution was WRITTEN by men who almost ALL served in the War of Independence. They watched comrades in arms die from injuries that would be called minor today. The war was fresh in all of their minds. It had been less than 2 years since Britain surrendered and the French wanted their loans back. How is it that that is trumped by an undeclared war that occurred 40 years ago?

[Roger Merriman]

I rather suspect that your constitution has little to do with American gun
culture, I suspect there are far more guns per person today than then, and
certainly far more mass shootings ie mass murders and so on than then.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

"The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, was proposed by James Madison to allow the creation of civilian forces that can counteract a tyrannical federal government. Anti-Federalists believed that a centralized standing military, established by the Constitutional Convention, gave the federal government too much power and potential for violent oppression."

"The Ninth Amendment was James Madison’s attempt to ensure that the Bill of Rights was not seen as granting to the people of the United States only the specific rights it addressed. In recent years, some have interpreted it as affirming the existence of such “unenumerated” rights outside those expressly protected by the Bill of Rights."

"The Tenth Amendment helps to define the concept of federalism, the relationship between Federal and state governments. As Federal activity has increased, so too has the problem of reconciling state and national interests as they apply to the Federal powers to tax, to police, and to regulations such as wage and hour laws, disclosure of personal information in recordkeeping systems, and laws related to strip-mining."

At this moment, the Democrats have taken over via despotic and illegal activities and EVERYONE can see it. The very fact that IRS documents are private information and a swat team turned up at Mar-a-Lago and Trump's records were illegally seized clearly shows why people are worried about a despotic government.

You plainly think that gun culture is something different from straight out fear of the government.

But, Biden is threatening to illegally use our military to seize all guns from the populace. You have seen the absolute illogical hatred of Krygowski for firearms in general and "assault weapons" in particular. I have shown you that they have defined an "assault weapon" as anything with a removeable ammunition clip. Today a significant number of SHOTGUNS use ammunition clips because they are easier to load than shoving rounds into the under barrel magazine.

If you believe that this is some sort of bubbly gun love you are so far out of the mainstream that you don't have any idea of what is going on.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

uh oh!

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:57:00 PM UTC-5, tommy scribbled:

>
> "The Second Amendment, ratified in 1791, was proposed by James Madison to allow the creation of civilian forces that can counteract a tyrannical federal government. "
>

But On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 6:53:04 PM UTC-4, kitty the tricycle rider farted in https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/KvIpVSj1RiQ/m/E9u7UC66BQAJ:
>
> The "well regulated militia" clause does not modify the "right to keep
> and bear arms" clause. Anybody with an inkling of knowledge of English
> Grammar knows this.

Which was it? Was the second amendment written "to allow the creation of civilian forces that can counteract a tyrannical federal government", or does the "well regulated militia" clause have nothing to do with the "right to keep and bear arms" clause.?

[John B.]

Come now, you ought to be able to figure that out.

The "militia" of the 1700's or earlier was a group of civilians who
joined together to defend themselves and their village - the
Minutemen, for example. Thus the individual's right to have and bear
arms was crucial to the forming of a militia.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/17/2023 5:56 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Biden is threatening to illegally use our military to seize all guns from the populace.

Wow. Where's the link to Biden saying that?

Or to put it another way: Are there internet links to the wild fantasies
in Tom's brain?

<shaking my head>

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yes John, There was a long discussion recently in this forum on that very subject, in which kitty remained adamant that the formation of a militia had nothing to do with the right to keep an bear arms by virtue of analyzing with his 6th grade reading skills. This, in spite of the _facts_ presented which showed several of the founding father - including James Madison (the author of the second amendment} and members of the constitutional congress that ratified the amendment - making statements exactly to that point: the right to keep an bears arms is essential to the formation of civilian militias, and specifically to help stem tyranny. There was never any attempt by anyone with any understanding of the historicity of the constitution to parse out the two clauses of the second amendment by using 6th grade grammar. Kitty was completely unable to find any historical reference for his position, let alone any current supporting citations.

You're correct John, and in this case even tommy is correct. The "right to keep and bear arms" was not created in a vacuum, and does not exist in a vacuum. It was created explicitly and intentionally in the context of ensuring the ability for the citizenry to establish "well-regulated" militias.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Of course there are!

Breitbart is a good starting point, as well as OANN, From there you can find all sorts of whackadoodle bullshit. I couldn't find find any popular conspiracy theories that say anything about biden using the military to seize anything, but in an interesting tangent, I found the SCOTUS ruling on Caniglia v. Strom in may of 2021 (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20-157_8mjp.pdf).

In an exceptionally rare _unanimous_ SCOTUS verdict, it was held that a warrantless search and seizure of Caniglia's weapons (I couldn't quickly find an inventory of the weapons) was unconstitutional. This was in spite of amicus briefs filed in support of the seizure by the US solicitor general and the solicitors general of Iowa, Louisiana, Minnesota, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, and Utah.

Even the ACLU said this was overreach: https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-rhode-island-files-brief-us-supreme-court-major-search-seizure-case-rhode-island.

Of course there were sensational headlines claiming that the biden administration was arguing in favor of warrantless seizures of weapons (probably the roots of tommys rant), but to quote Snopes "headlines risked misleading readers because they represented the specific constitutional question at stake in the Caniglia case, and the Biden administration's particular arguments, in an overly broad manner. " https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/biden-supreme-court-police-guns/

[William Crowell]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 1:10:19 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/16/2023 11:23 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:20:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Idiotic things that Krygowski loves to say - He is agaoinst the 2nd Amendment to "save the children" Despite about 1% of yearly gun deaths being from rifles and far less by AR14's.
> >>
> >
> > While I don't agree with the intense focus on one firearm, there is a related manner in which the approach has some impact, I won't get into at the moment.
> >
> > What he is absolutely 100% correct on is that the US has way too many homicides per capita population - way more than civilized countries, of which the US marginally qualifies it seems.
> >
> > So - Tom, what is your solution? And don't give us garbage about more guns being the answer - we have 200 million in circulation now.

> >
> When asked on WIND radio Friday what he would do about
> crime, Dr Willie Wilson (my preferred Chicago mayoral
> candidate even though I can't vote in Chicago - I'm not dead
> yet) replied, "First thing I'll do is take the handcuffs off
> the police and put them on the crooks."
>

> One man's opinion. In today's political environment, a real
> outlier as well.
>
> We've tried literally everything else so why the heck not?
>

> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The "elephant in the room"/unasked questions are: how many criminals would we have to lock up to make the country safe; how much would it cost; could the law-abiding taxpayers really afford to pay for it; and assuming the jail population would be rather high, is it really a good idea for a democratic nation to have such a large proportion of its population in jail? A fortiori due to the Mexican cartels moving in across our unsecured southern border.

[AMuzi]

On 1/18/2023 7:00 AM, William Crowell wrote:
> On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 1:10:19 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/16/2023 11:23 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:20:51 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Idiotic things that Krygowski loves to say - He is agaoinst the 2nd Amendment to "save the children" Despite about 1% of yearly gun deaths being from rifles and far less by AR14's.
>>>>
>>>
>>> While I don't agree with the intense focus on one firearm, there is a related manner in which the approach has some impact, I won't get into at the moment.
>>>
>>> What he is absolutely 100% correct on is that the US has way too many homicides per capita population - way more than civilized countries, of which the US marginally qualifies it seems.
>>>
>>> So - Tom, what is your solution? And don't give us garbage about more guns being the answer - we have 200 million in circulation now.
>>>
>> When asked on WIND radio Friday what he would do about
>> crime, Dr Willie Wilson (my preferred Chicago mayoral
>> candidate even though I can't vote in Chicago - I'm not dead
>> yet) replied, "First thing I'll do is take the handcuffs off
>> the police and put them on the crooks."
>>
>> One man's opinion. In today's political environment, a real
>> outlier as well.
>>
>> We've tried literally everything else so why the heck not?

> The "elephant in the room"/unasked questions are: how many criminals would we have to lock up to make the country safe; how much would it cost; could the law-abiding taxpayers really afford to pay for it; and assuming the jail population would be rather high, is it really a good idea for a democratic nation to have such a large proportion of its population in jail? A fortiori due to the Mexican cartels moving in across our unsecured southern border.
>

I do not have an exact number nor proportion to suggest.

However, starting around 1990, criminologists noticed that a
relatively small number of people accounted for a hugely
disproportionate number of crimes within any give area.
This was applied effectively in some areas, notably NYC[1]
in the mid to late 1990s with dramatic improvements
(recently cited here).

This effect is not only true of criminal firearm assault.
Take shoplifting (a plague in many cities where enforcement
has ended):

https://nypost.com/2023/01/05/327-crooks-made-up-30-of-shoplifting-arrests-in-2022-nypd/

You might say that it's no big deal[2] but it really is.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jiawertz/2022/11/20/shoplifting-has-become-a-100-billion-problem-for-retailers/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/walgreens-closing-5-san-francisco-stores-shoplifting-fears-rcna3015


[1] It seems the guys jumping the subway turnstile were
found to carry illegal firearms and/or contraband and have
outstanding warrants at a significantly higher rate than
guys who paid the fare. This is one application of Wilson &
Keller's 'broken windows' argument which proved phenomenally
effective.


[2] I commonly hear, 'what the hell they're insured' but I
am unaware of any insurance coverage available for
shoplifting at any price.

[Roger Merriman]

Armed civilians are realistically no threat to relatively modern military
even with out modern kit, see Ukrainian vs Russian ie mass untrained vs
trained.

Times have changed it once was but isn’t any more.

>
> "The Ninth Amendment was James Madison’s attempt to ensure that the Bill
> of Rights was not seen as granting to the people of the United States
> only the specific rights it addressed. In recent years, some have
> interpreted it as affirming the existence of such “unenumerated” rights
> outside those expressly protected by the Bill of Rights."
>
> "The Tenth Amendment helps to define the concept of federalism, the
> relationship between Federal and state governments. As Federal activity
> has increased, so too has the problem of reconciling state and national
> interests as they apply to the Federal powers to tax, to police, and to
> regulations such as wage and hour laws, disclosure of personal
> information in recordkeeping systems, and laws related to strip-mining."
>
> At this moment, the Democrats have taken over via despotic and illegal
> activities and EVERYONE can see it. The very fact that IRS documents are
> private information and a swat team turned up at Mar-a-Lago and Trump's
> records were illegally seized clearly shows why people are worried about
> a despotic government.
>
> You plainly think that gun culture is something different from straight
> out fear of the government.

Guns don’t defend against governments, haven’t for years, the days of
army’s gathering working men from the land was fairly old if not defunct by
the 18th century.

>
> But, Biden is threatening to illegally use our military to seize all guns
> from the populace. You have seen the absolute illogical hatred of
> Krygowski for firearms in general and "assault weapons" in particular. I
> have shown you that they have defined an "assault weapon" as anything
> with a removeable ammunition clip. Today a significant number of SHOTGUNS
> use ammunition clips because they are easier to load than shoving rounds
> into the under barrel magazine.

That sounds unlikely and would of hit the news even over here.

>
> If you believe that this is some sort of bubbly gun love you are so far
> out of the mainstream that you don't have any idea of what is going on.
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

If you cannot afford to lock murderers up and keep them there they are STILL a menace to society so you execute then. We don't need any more of this "If we are nice to criminals maybe they will like us and not kill us".

[Tim R]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 2:55:06 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Tim, pardon me for using the term "ignorance". But in case you were unaware if it is your belief that punishment swerves no purpose, then you've been watching too much television. Only 40% of non-violent offenders reoffend. And this is mostly because of their economic conditions. Since the Looney tune position that violent offenders are just poor unfortunates, they have had 60% recidivism.
>
> Are you of the opinion that the economic reasons for crime in the 18th century are valid today?

I had about made up my mind to go enjoy some other thread, but since you were polite and to the point, I'll respond to this one.

The economic theory of crime is not really related to the economic reasons for crime.

The economic theory of crime was invalid in the 18th century and remains equally invalid today. It was never examined critically because it seems self evident, but in fact real life doesn't work that way. The economic theory is this: Before doing crime, a person makes a rational choice based on cost benefit analysis: how much can I gain by crime, balanced against 1) the likelihood of getting caught, and 2) the severity of punishment if I do get caught.

The result of this theory is the idea that we can prevent crime by increasing 1, 2, or both. But it turns out to be more expensive and often fruitless to work on 1, and easier and more satisfying to just do 2. Of course that doesn't work because it is based on a false root cause.

Yes there are economic reasons for crime, and wealth inequality is a significant driver, but as usual this is not a simplistic one cause problem.

[Tom Kunich]

I have no idea where you get the idea that the difference between a militia and a standing army is so vastly different. Boot camp is only 6 weeks and any good DI could cut that in half. There are NO fancy weapons that are effective against a large ground force. These are individuals. CBS says stupid things like "Russia only has 20 tanks left in the Ukraine" US force neutralized even the Tiger Tank with two men and a bazooka. There are hand launched rockets that now reduce this to one man. If the enemy puts tanks against you, they also have to put a means of stopping tanks in case they are captured and used against you.

Roger, you obviously haven't been in the military and don't understand anything about a military. If you believe for one second that minute men could not be reformed in a minute, you're imagining a power of the military that does not exist. Specially trained forces like Seals or Rangers are another thing but you run the risk of them changing sides which they would do in massive number in case of a civil war started by the Democrats/communists.

[Tom Kunich]

Tim, Criminals DO make a price-cost analysis, why do you suppose there has been such a large uptick in crime since Democrat states have stopped prosecuting criminals and started "no cash bail" schemes? Criminals invariably are less smart than you give them credit for and hence their cost/price analysis is far more crude than you think.

[AMuzi]

I have two problems with that.

One, most poor people are not criminals and make a very
different decision given the same environment, same
risks/rewards.

Two, setting vengeance and rehabilitation aside, guys who
are 'in' are not out committing crimes for that period,
however long or short. Which was the #1 goal I think.

[Tom Kunich]

I live in directly next to a city with a LOT of black on black crime. Invariably is involved drugs. It is a conscious decision to use drugs and I watched it happen in the Hippy generation when the addicted white hippies committed petty theft and today's black addicts are not in the least afraid of committing major crimes to fund their addiction, Of course, there was a difference between opium and Fentanyl especially which is 50 to 100 times stronger than morphine which is refined and stronger opium.

Imagine voluntarily deciding to live a life of drug addiction which will invariably lead to your death!

[Frank Krygowski]

You seem to be relying on one book and a related interview.

I'm relying on worldwide data collected over many years by economists
and socialists.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_wealth_inequality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

According to sources like that, the U.S. has more wealth and income
disparity than Italy, Ireland, France, Finland, Netherlands, Austria,
Sweden, Germany, Hungary, etc. etc.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I think your response there is better than some of your others. I can
certainly accept that a small portion of offenders is responsible for
the worst portion of crimes, and that those people should be in prison.

The trouble is, the "just lock 'em up" mentality is often expressed as
"just lock 'em ALL up." America's experience shows that doesn't work.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 12:17:21 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/17/2023 1:13 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/17/2023 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/17/2023 11:33 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Your top earners, those 'evil' 1%, pay a third of _all_
> >>> Federal income tax. What the hell do you want? What's
> >>> 'enough'?
> >>
> >> "Enough" would be policies that reduce America's income and
> >> wealth disparity to, say, the level of the prosperous
> >> European nations.
> >>
> >> I think that would do more to reduce America's crime rate
> >> than would exacerbating our already ridiculous incarceration
> >> rates.
> >>
> >
> > If it were true I would not necessarily find it objectionable. But is
> > just is not true. Not at all.
> >
> > https://morninganswerchicago.com/2022/09/21/phil-gramm-shares-his-new-book-the-myth-of-american-inequality/
> >
> > Details in depth under $20:
> > https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=phil+gramm+myth&hs.x=0&hs.y=0
>
> You seem to be relying on one book and a related interview.

He is, hardly an unbiased source. Phil Gramm - co author of Gramm-Leach- Bliley and The Commodity Futures Modernization Act - widely regarded as the legislation that allowed the financial industry to take excessive risk and treat credit swaps as an unregulated derivatives. In short, he's largely to blame for the the 2009 mortgage crisis, so I'd take his a opinion on wealth disparity with a few hundred pounds of salt.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/magazine/28wwln-reconsider.html

>
> I'm relying on worldwide data collected over many years by economists
> and socialists.

"sociologists"

[Frank Krygowski]

Tim, someone needs to warn you: Intelligent and educated discussion and
acknowledgement of complexity are not characteristic of this group. You
may find yourself on Tom's "stupid" list! Or Jute may refuse to sign his
name for you! Oh, the shame, the horror! ;-)

More seriously: Thanks for raising the level of discussion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Right! Andrew will say "Freudian slip!" :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

As with the hue and cry about US infant mortality, the
disparity is in the reporting standards and not the actual
situation. This was known and discussed but Mr Gramm makes
a very tight case with copious references.

[AMuzi]

I'll wait for someone who never fumblefingers a typo to
comment on that.

[Roger Merriman]

I’d be amazed if after a boot camp folks would be sent out, in general
being professional and experienced trumps boots on the ground this has been
known since the English civil war where the Parliamentary forces ie new
model army.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

...and I don't see that as a problem....

[Catrike Rider]

As if "just turn them loose" is working.

[Catrike Rider]

There's no record of any problem ever being solved on Usenet.

[Tom Kunich]

As is usual for Frank he LOVES to user meaningless code words like the entire left. The US is stinking rich and there is only a very small percentage of poor such as in Africa or India. Even India is working their way out of disparity with the greening of the Earth as farmlands and even deserts become fertile due to the tiny increase is CO2 from energy production. Only some pin headed idiot would think that someone that makes MORE money on welfare than most of the world makes working their fingers to the bone is something to use the term "income disparity" on. The differences in income are largely the large number of multimillionaires vs. the income of lower middle class people. If you have what you need you should care less that you could be rich like Elon Musk because everyone cannot be a genius.

When I point out the stupidity of Krygowski this is the kind of thing I mean. When I was still under the effects of the concussion I think I must have lacked patience for his utterances, but let's face it. He is continually quoting Communist propaganda and leftist code words. If you WANT more you used to be able in the US to get more by working at it. Then Obama came along that that was the end of that.

Was there ONE reason that anyone should have ever listened to one word that came out of Obama's mouth? WHAT did he ever do? There is NO SUCH THING as "community organizer". That is another phrase for "Brown Shirt". He promised that he would end the war in Iraq and did no such thing and started another in Afghanistan. He did EXACTLY what the Labor Party did in Great Britain that led to WW II - he almost eliminated the Military. He opened the door to worldwide strife.

And what do WE get out of it? That ignorant fool Frank repeating hate phrases that mean nothing in the USA.

[Tom Kunich]

Of course there is. before people would refer to Google as an authority. There used to be actual intellectual discussions and problems or at least the means to solve problems could be resolved. Then came the likes of Flunky and Frank. Failures in life they found a way to be successes in their own heads by being experts by referring everyone to Google. Google might very well have been honest to begin with but when you're referenced as experts at everything they see themselves as Kings of all they survey. They grew political and sites like "Fact Check" used them as proof positive that the conservative view wasn't just wrong but deadly dangerous.

The Internet and particularly Usenet became nothing more than noise. Jorge stops by now and then to get some advice on a component. pH in Aptos and Deacon Mark ask very specific questions and even take those with a grain of salt.

As they should since people like Liebermann isn't above giving advice on things he hasn't even a clue about. And doing it with a confidence level and wording that might even seem expert if you didn't know better. Can you just imagine the nerve it takes to respond to my comment about getting small stones in my water that jam the facets when the local water company changes from the major reservoirs in the Siera Nevadas to our local reservoirs after declared droughts when the mud has built up behind the local dam and Liebermann declares I am lying? I pull the water filter screens off and empty out the stones and water flow returns to normal! This has only been true for the entire life of water service to San Leandro. This is why they normally buy mountain water instead of our own huge reservoir in the Oakland hills. This reservoir is fed by muddy runoff from our dusty hills whereas the Seira Nevada reservoirs are fed by snow melt into rock basins. They are so large that the small amount of mud that gets in has time to settle to the bottom`. Irrigation water is pulled from the bottom and drinking water from the middle. San Fransisco has the same problem with their reservoir that lies in the hills above San Mateo and the Coastal range. That one is so large they sell water to all the local communities.

So the Internet has ceased to be a reference because all of the failures set on proving to those that know better that they aren't.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 2:14:32 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:17:17 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >

> >You seem to be relying on one book and a related interview.
> >
> >I'm relying on worldwide data collected over many years by economists
> >and socialists.
> >
> >https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_wealth_inequality
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
> >
> >According to sources like that, the U.S. has more wealth and income
> >disparity than Italy, Ireland, France, Finland, Netherlands, Austria,
> >Sweden, Germany, Hungary, etc. etc.
>
> ...and I don't see that as a problem....

Most selfish pricks wouldn't

[Catrike Rider]

I'm not responsible for losers like you.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

lol....everyone should be so lucky as to be a "loser" like me.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:40:16 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

<eyeroll> I'll pass, like many others.

[Tom Kunich]

Now it is really interesting that I have demonstrated that middle class people have nothing to be jealous of and Flunky who has presented himself as what would be upper middle class is sniveling that he is falling down crying jealous of people much smarter and more successful than he is. This is absolute proof that he is not an engineering manager!

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 2:14:32 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:

> >According to sources like that, the U.S. has more wealth and income
> >disparity than Italy, Ireland, France, Finland, Netherlands, Austria,
> >Sweden, Germany, Hungary, etc. etc.

> ...and I don't see that as a problem....

It's a problem for at least two obvious reasons.

One is that it's not sustainable indefinitely.

Another is that the richest nation in the world cannot afford to repair its aging roads, dams, electrical grids, public buildings, military bases, etc., cannot fund decent health care or education, is barely able to maintain high tech military equipment, has no social safety nets to speak of, and is rapidly getting to the point of an aging population without enough young folk to fund it.

The 1% are happy with their life; a very significant portion of the rest are miserable, and the US is way down the list of the happiest countries, with a higher crime rate than any listed above.

What is the point of being a nation, if it's not to ensure the quality of life of its citizens?

[AMuzi]

Those are interesting issues but as far as 'disparity' goes
a healthy society with a healthy economy has people moving
both up and down among income quintiles both individually
and across generations. That's true in USA (albeit less so
than in previous eras) but still more dynamic than most
places and times.

I return briefly to note that by not accounting for errors
at both ends - ignoring non 'income' transfers (rent,
utilities, food, medical, Obama phone and all the rest) and
then taking gross earnings not after-tax net as 'income',
the disparity is greatly overstated here.

[Catrike Rider]

I see the quality of life as each individual's responsibility.

[John B.]

The so called economic reason for crime doesn't stand up well when you
look at it closely. Whitey Bulger, for example. His father lost an arm
and wasn't able to work and the family was extremely poor.... and
Whitey grew up to be a major crime boss in New England. Yup! Poor kid
turns to crime!

But Whitey's brother, William Bulger, graduated from Boston Collage,
and went on the Boston Collage Law and graduated ad went on to
received his Doctor of Jurisprudence degree. largely financed by the
"G.I. Bill.

He went on to become a politician and served as State Senate president
for 18 years, the longest tenure in Massachusetts history, and was
appointed president of the University of Massachusetts by the board of
trustees on November 28, 1995.

Poor Boy makes good... the American Dream comes true.

Or Oprah Winfrey, born to a single mother and grew up in a house
without electricity or running water.

Or, or, or...
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

+1

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/heres-how-22-million-americans-became-millionaires.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/11/10-billionaires-who-grew-up-dirt-poor.html

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 5:23:41 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2023 4:13 PM, Tim R wrote:
> >

> > Another [problem] is that the richest nation in the world cannot afford to repair its aging roads, dams, electrical grids, public buildings, military bases, etc., cannot fund decent health care or education, is barely able to maintain high tech military equipment, has no social safety nets to speak of, and is rapidly getting to the point of an aging population without enough young folk to fund it.

> >
> > The 1% are happy with their life; a very significant portion of the rest are miserable, and the US is way down the list of the happiest countries, with a higher crime rate than any listed above.
> >
> > What is the point of being a nation, if it's not to ensure the quality of life of its citizens?
> >
> Those are interesting issues but as far as 'disparity' goes
> a healthy society with a healthy economy has people moving
> both up and down among income quintiles both individually
> and across generations. That's true in USA (albeit less so
> than in previous eras) but still more dynamic than most
> places and times.

First, "most places and times" is a uselessly broad standard. In most places and times during the
past 100,000 years, almost all mankind wore furs and lived as hunter gatherers.

Second, it's not obvious to me that lots of people moving up and down in income is a good thing.
ISTM that stable income is better for many reasons. As one example, a documented stable
income is much more likely to influence a bank to make a loan enabling a business expansion.

> I return briefly to note that by not accounting for errors
> at both ends - ignoring non 'income' transfers (rent,
> utilities, food, medical, Obama phone and all the rest) and
> then taking gross earnings not after-tax net as 'income',
> the disparity is greatly overstated here.

You are apparently saying all the people who measure these disparities professionally are
mistaken. That's a claim that deserves explanation and documentation, not just an off-the-cuff
opinion.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 6:15:20 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>
> The so called economic reason for crime doesn't stand up well when you

> look at it closely. Whitey Bulger, for example. ...Poor kid
> turns to crime!
>
> But Whitey's brother, William Bulger, ...

> Poor Boy makes good... the American Dream comes true.

Gosh, why isn't every issue decided by looking at one or two anecdotes?

Why on earth are there people who collect large amounts of data in disciplined ways,
attempt to account for confounding variables, apply sophisticated mathematical
computer analyses and publish their results for other trained and educated
professionals to examine?

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 20:25:49 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 6:15:20 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>
>> The so called economic reason for crime doesn't stand up well when you
>> look at it closely. Whitey Bulger, for example. ...Poor kid
>> turns to crime!
>>
>> But Whitey's brother, William Bulger, ...
>> Poor Boy makes good... the American Dream comes true.
>
>Gosh, why isn't every issue decided by looking at one or two anecdotes?

Decided????

>Why on earth are there people who collect large amounts of data in disciplined ways,
>attempt to account for confounding variables, apply sophisticated mathematical
>computer analyses and publish their results for other trained and educated
>professionals to examine?

Because they are paid to manipulate data to try to control people.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 20:25:49 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 6:15:20 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>>
>> The so called economic reason for crime doesn't stand up well when you
>> look at it closely. Whitey Bulger, for example. ...Poor kid
>> turns to crime!
>>
>> But Whitey's brother, William Bulger, ...
>> Poor Boy makes good... the American Dream comes true.
>
>Gosh, why isn't every issue decided by looking at one or two anecdotes?

Decided????

>Why on earth are there people who collect large amounts of data in disciplined ways,
>attempt to account for confounding variables, apply sophisticated mathematical
>computer analyses and publish their results for other trained and educated
>professionals to examine?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 5:08:18 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 1:37:15 PM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:24:48 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> > <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 2:14:32 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 12:17:17 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >> >
> > >> >You seem to be relying on one book and a related interview.
> > >> >
> > >> >I'm relying on worldwide data collected over many years by economists
> > >> >and socialists.
> > >> >
> > >> >https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country
> > >> >
> > >> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_wealth_inequality
> > >> >
> > >> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
> > >> >
> > >> >According to sources like that, the U.S. has more wealth and income
> > >> >disparity than Italy, Ireland, France, Finland, Netherlands, Austria,
> > >> >Sweden, Germany, Hungary, etc. etc.
> > >>
> > >> ...and I don't see that as a problem....
> > >
> > >Most selfish pricks wouldn't
> > I'm not responsible for losers like you.
> Now it is really interesting that I have demonstrated that middle class people have nothing to be jealous of and Flunky who has presented himself as what would be upper middle class

I did? no...more tommy fantasies

> is sniveling that he is falling down crying jealous of people much smarter and more successful than he is.

ay one with better than a grade school reading comprehension could see I did exactly the opposite.

> This is absolute proof that he is not an engineering manager!

For once tommy is right about something. I'm not an engineering manager. I never said I was.

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 5:23:41 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

> Those are interesting issues but as far as 'disparity' goes
> a healthy society with a healthy economy has people moving
> both up and down among income quintiles both individually
> and across generations. That's true in USA (albeit less so
> than in previous eras) but still more dynamic than most
> places and times.

I'm not so sure it is true at all in the USA.

I think it is much more difficult to move up and much easier to move down than was historically true.

(I'm also not so sure the premise is true, that this is a good thing in a healthy society. But I am pretty sure that this is not a healthy society with a healthy economy. The metric for health in our economy is the stock market and the GDP - both are high, but we don't have enough money take care of priorities like infrastructure, health, education, etc. So it looks like the metric is flawed.)