Best American Made Lugged Steel Frame?
Joe
(preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
Thanks in advance--
Matt O'Toole
You might look at Heron, made by Waterford, but not as expensive as the
Waterford-branded bikes.
I doubt you'll find a brand-new, American-made, lugged frame for much less. It
simply costs too much to run this kind of business in the US. I'm surprised
there are as many frame builders as there are.
Since steel frames last a long time, and it's pretty easy to assess their
condition, you might try to find a good used one. Have it repainted if you want
it to look new. Some painters will completely restore a frame, including
decals.
Matt O.
Alan
http://www.kogswell.com/p.html
A lugged frame for $699.
"Joe" <chicag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com...
Gary Jacobson
Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY
"Alan" <aefi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ursyc.79096$DG4....@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
sfcommuter
I think it will be impossible to find a new inexpensive AND US-made
lugged steel frame. Rivendell's custom frames are made in the US but
are expensive. Their other production frames are less expensive, but
made in Japan.
Kogswell has cheaper lugged steel frames, but they're cheaper because
they are made in Taiwain I believe.
--
Gary Jacobson
http://www.jitensha.com/eng/aboutframes_e.html
But I'm not sure if you think $1000.00 or so is too expensive.
I have a feeling I'll be looking for an "inexpensive" custom.
May be a Hab for me though.
Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY
"sfcommuter" <sf_co...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:I0tyc.82355$LL4....@fe05.usenetserver.com...
Todd Kuzma
chicag...@yahoo.com wrote on 6/11/04 5:34 PM:
As someone else has already mentioned, Heron frames are made in the US by
Waterford Precision Cycles to our specifications. They are production, not
custom, frames which allows us to keep the cost down.
Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
LaSalle, IL
http://www.heronbicycles.com/
Tim McNamara
I don't know why you're hung up on 853, which is intended for TIG
welding and not lugged brazed construction, but there are hundreds of
perfectly good frame builders in the US and thousands around the
world. It's not hard to find them.
As for "mass-produced" lugged frames- well, no. Sorry. The closest
you're going to come is from Heron, Kogswell or Rivendell. All three
are excellent, reasonably priced lugged steel frames. All three have
Websites to check out what they offer:
www.heronbicycles.com
www.kogswell.com
www.rivendellbicycles.com (check out the Rambouillet)
Mark
like to have, but I reckon your getting the "sticker shock blues".
I can relate to this "feeling", and like you, I also had a desire for
a very good steel frame, and top of the line components on board to
boot, without having regrets on a super huge investment, just for a
bike.
To some folks, a $4K-$5K investment doesn't phase them. Either they
can afford it, or others will go without many other things to have
this caliber of bike.
None the less, I guess this is a certain fact, that if you won't
settle for nothing but the best, it's gonna cost.
I know there are a few great small companies who build, but most I
believe are custom builders, and it sounds to me that you're looking
for something directly off the shelves.
I currently ride a Steel Frame Bianchi, but what I did, was I found an
NOS Steel Lugged Frame, a Mint NOS '89 Paramount 50th Anniversary.
(Actually an old Waterford is what it is)
Perhaps this is way below the quality of what you are seeking, so you
have the dilemma of having to pay the piper.
Another make, or builder I personally would look to, if I was looking
for the finest steel lugged frames made in USA, would be Richard
Sachs.
Again, price of admission does cost. You can't expect a brand new,
hand made lugged Steel frame to sell for $499.
Being lucky, and at the right place at the right time does help. You
might be able to 'Luck" into a Sachs frame, or something similar, that
somebody has bought, but is forced to sell do to financial, or other
reasons? Ebay may be a venue to search for your dream bike? Hope
these ideas help you some, Mark
yetchic...@yahoo.com (Joe) wrote in message news:<549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com>...
Jeff & Jane
here is a link to his web site.
http://www.richardsachs.com/
Dave Thompson
Joe:
853 isn't used for lugged frames. Don't get hung up on the particular steel
used, it isn't the most important aspect of how "good" a frame is. More
important is the 'quality' of the build, along with the design and geometry
that suits your needs.
There's a TON of builders out there. Here's an A~Z list:
http://www.bikesutra.com/manatoi.html Start doing some research and making
some enquiries. It's part of the fun of buying.
Dan Daniel
<davets...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>853 isn't used for lugged frames. Don't get hung up on the particular steel
>used, it isn't the most important aspect of how "good" a frame is. More
>important is the 'quality' of the build, along with the design and geometry
>that suits your needs.
>
>There's a TON of builders out there. Here's an A~Z list:
>http://www.bikesutra.com/manatoi.html Start doing some research and making
>some enquiries. It's part of the fun of buying.
>
I'll second this. Find a frame builder and talk out the possibilities.
For $800, $200 for a fork, there are people like...
http://www.mikkelsenframes.com/pages/803200/index.htm
This price point seems about typical for your 'second tier' builders,
meaning those without the national reputations but who will probably
give you as good or better a frame as the top five.
Zog The Undeniable
853 is actually designed for TIG welding, so that's what most builders do.
A Muzi
> news:549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com...
>>I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
>>(preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
>>regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
>>expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
>>to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
>>great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
Dave Thompson wrote:
> 853 isn't used for lugged frames. Don't get hung up on the particular steel
> used, it isn't the most important aspect of how "good" a frame is. More
> important is the 'quality' of the build, along with the design and geometry
> that suits your needs.
>
> There's a TON of builders out there. Here's an A~Z list:
> http://www.bikesutra.com/manatoi.html Start doing some research and making
> some enquiries. It's part of the fun of buying.
>
>
My understanding of that is Reynolds produces 853 with a
shorter thicker butt for welding and a more traditional tube
for lugged frames.
Otherwise I'm in agreement with Dave- it is hardly the most
critic aspect. In fact better builders mix tube and leave
the stickers off.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Joe
Todd--How does one of your bikes differ from a 2200-series Waterford?
From what I understand, Waterford uses 853 tubesets in the lugged 2200
model and from what I hear, they are quite lightweight. What type of
steel is used in Herons and how do weights compare to the Waterford
2200s?
Joe
Thanks much--this list is real useful.
Qui si parla Campagnolo
expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
Ya gets what ya pay for. Waterford, Nobilette, Sachs, others are wonderful,
lifetime rides.
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Todd Kuzma
> Todd--How does one of your bikes differ from a 2200-series Waterford?
> From what I understand, Waterford uses 853 tubesets in the lugged 2200
> model and from what I hear, they are quite lightweight. What type of
> steel is used in Herons and how do weights compare to the Waterford
> 2200s?
Our frames use a double-butted cromoly that we source from
Reynolds and True Temper. It's essentially the same spec
(wall thickness, diameter, butting) as the 531 OS tubing
used in the earlier Herons. We occasionally will use some
531 OS that is left if it is the right size.
The Heron Road or Rally will have a bit more upright
position and a little slower steering than the 2200.
Consider it a 1970s race geometry. The Herons allow for
greater tire clearance, and we have eyelets front and rear
if you ever want to install fenders or racks.
The tubing itself uses a thicker wall than the 2200. This
adds some weight, but it also makes the frame more suitable
for larger riders and/or riders who carry gear.
Of course, Waterford offers similar frames in the RS, RS-E,
and RS-T models.
Additionally, Waterfords have fancier paint jobs and are
full custom. Herons are production-built, meaning no
options or customs, and are offered in four standard colors.
Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com
Baird Webel
<tul...@TheRamp.net> wrote:
> The Heron Road or Rally will have a bit more upright
> position and a little slower steering than the 2200.
> Consider it a 1970s race geometry. The Herons allow for
> greater tire clearance, and we have eyelets front and rear
> if you ever want to install fenders or racks.
It may be 1970s race geometry, but the Heron road frame races today very
nicely. I raced mine in a local (no. VA.) crit last weekend and ended with
my best placing in about 5 years. Very nice bike for the money. Only thing
I'd change would be the seat tube waterbottle placement, which is a little
low for my taste, but I just used a clamp for the top of the one I have on
and it works fine.
Baird
Mark
be a slightly older NOS Colnago Classic, Crystal, or Master Light
Frame.
I know you said "Best American Frames" But some of these older Colnago
Frames were quite nice in my opinion, with Chrome Headtube Lugs, Fork,
and Chrome Rear Chainstays. Prices for these can range about
$600-$750, and I think they'd make a wonderful bike. Many may argue
here about the quality of these bike frames, but I myself certainly
wouldn't be ashamed to have one. Maybe some others here will say they
were all junk? I don't know?
Many of the paint finishes on these Colnago frames, could be tad
fragile, but were none the less very beautiful. Just make sure that
rear dropout spacing will be compatible with what you wish to use.
Some are 126mm, instead of 130mm.
I currently have a mint Midnight Blue NOS Colnago Frame on "hold" with
a seller, with the Chrome Headtube lugs, forks, and Chainstays.
If I had my choice of "Pretty" frames, and cost was no object for a
USA steel Frame, it would maybe be a 2200 HCL Waterford, with the hand
carved lugs. Mark
Framechi...@yahoo.com (Joe) wrote in message news:<549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com>...
Eurastus
fellow framebuilders, they will tell you Sachs does immaculate work. Well
thought-out, no fad, perfect geometery, fully custom in every way. His frames
are painted by Joe Bell in CA--also immaculate. You can't buy better than this
in a lugged steel frame.
However, the current lead-time is 27-30 months...That's right, more then 2
years between order and delivery!!
Not only that, but his least expensive frame/fork is $2650 and they go up to a
little over $3000 with all the custom paint and extra braze-ons possible (well,
when you're spending that kind of time and money, don't quibble over the last
few hundred bucks).
However, you will then own the very best on the planet.
As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when it came
down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went with a Ritchey Road
Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom made, not lugged, and not made in
the US (though finished and painted here). It set me back $929 with custom
paint and took 2 months from order to delivery. That's a little longer than
normal for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in the
middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the Sachs) and
actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are nice, but not Sachs/Bell
quality. I'm satisfied for the money I spent.
Either way, Sachs or Ritchey, you'll have to go far and look hard to see
another bike like yours. Neither of these are like the current Trek or LeMond
carbon-fiber wonder bikes, with every other cyclist on the road sporting one.
However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
Dave Thompson
"Eurastus" <s...@spade.com> wrote in message
news:IuKdnbHVCqb...@giganews.com...
Another builder of note is Dave Kirk. http://www.kirkframeworks.com/ Worked
for Serotta as their custom builder, built the TdF bikes for the 7-11 Team
and was head of Serotta R&D. He hung out his own shingle last year in
Bozeman Montana. Makes very good stuff, I've got one.
bfd
forget Albert Eisentraut, aka the *Godfather of American Framebuilding* -
www.eisentraut.com
Steven L. Sheffield
549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com, "Joe"
<chicag...@yahoo.com> wrote:
For lugs and production, Waterford is pretty much it ... You don't have to
get all the fancy stuff, you know ...
Of course, I like Richard Sachs.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
Steven L. Sheffield
"Alan" <aefi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Check this link out:
>
> http://www.kogswell.com/p.html
>
> A lugged frame for $699.
Not American-made.
Not 853.
But a great deal, if you want something with room for fenders, and a more
upright position, a la Rivendell.
> "Joe" <chicag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com...
>> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
>> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
>> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
>> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
>> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
>> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>>
>> Thanks in advance--
>
>
--
Bill K.
about how much you weigh and what size frame you need. If you're 5'6"
and weigh 140 pounds and plan to race, you would need a completely
different bike with different tubes than a 6'4" 250 pound tourist The
lightweight racer could get by with just about any tubeset including
the old 531. If you put the 250 pound rider on a 62 cm frame made with
the same tubes..........I don't even want to think about it.
Steven L. Sheffield
Thompson" <davets...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 853 isn't used for lugged frames.
If 853 isn't used for lugged frames, then what was Waterford using on all
those 853-stickered 2200s?
Steven L. Sheffield
"Eurastus" <s...@spade.com> wrote:
> However...I may still spring for the Sachs for my 50th birthday (12
> years)...just don't tell the wife, OK???
I'm hoping to get my second in time for my 40th birthday ... (2 years).
Dave Thompson
"Steven L. Sheffield" <ste...@veloworks.com> wrote in message
news:BCF28088.35984%ste...@veloworks.com...
> On 06/11/2004 09:27 PM, in article wu-dncgaBY6...@comcast.com,
"Dave
> Thompson" <davets...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> > 853 isn't used for lugged frames.
>
>
>
> If 853 isn't used for lugged frames, then what was Waterford using on all
> those 853-stickered 2200s?
>
air-hardning steel to be used primarily for TIG'd and brazed frames. To see
it used in lugged bikes is somewhat unusual.
Joe
WOW, I checked out his website and he builds REALLY beautiful bikes.
Looks a lot like Sachs' work. However, I think he is more upscale
than what I'm looking for. I'm basically just looking for a nice,
light, production steel frame with lugs--I don't need all the
customization that these builders offer, so I'm not willing to pay
extra for it.
But I am going to keep Kirk's name in mind if I really want to treat
myself.
Joe
gerrit van wijk
Dave Thompson
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--
Here's a small builder that enjoys a very good reputation locally:
http://www.hairygary.com/ Might be worh looking at considering his price.
Dave Thompson
"Joe" <chicag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:549ce1b.04061...@posting.google.com...
> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
> Thanks in advance--
http://www.bikemojo.com/search/bikes_and_accessories/custom/index.shtml
Dave Stallard
> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
Peter Mooney in Belmont, MA does lugged steel frames, and has some
ready-built (not custom) in-house. http://www.peter-mooney.com/
Richard Sachs is another that comes to mind.
Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
lugs are getting harder to find.
Dave
Dave Thompson
"Dave Stallard" <stal...@bbn.com> wrote in message
news:2j658iF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Peter Mooney in Belmont, MA does lugged steel frames, and has some
> ready-built (not custom) in-house. http://www.peter-mooney.com/
>
> Richard Sachs is another that comes to mind.
>
> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
> frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
> lugs are getting harder to find.
>
> Dave
Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged frames and their being
'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold true with the "majors" in bicycle
building but certainly not with the smaller builders, which by the way are
growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties of lugs now than in
the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and others are developing and
casting (or having cast for them) their own patterns.
It's been my experience with riders I know, that the appreciation of lugged
bikes is growing and many owners are specifying lugged when getting a custom
built.
Dave Stallard
> Dave, I've got to disagree with you regarding lugged frames and their being
> 'on the way out'. Perhaps that may hold true with the "majors" in bicycle
> building but certainly not with the smaller builders, which by the way are
> growing in number daily. Also there are more varieties of lugs now than in
> the recent past. Pascenti, Sachs, Henry James and others are developing and
> casting (or having cast for them) their own patterns.
I'm only going by something I read once somewhere (maybe on the Mooney
site) about lugs becoming harder to find. But I do think it's true that
(as you say above) lugged frames are increasingly the province of the
smaller, more craftman-like builders. And frames which come out of
those shops are unlikely to be inexpensive, which was what the original
poster seemed to be looking for. (That's not to say they're not worth
every penny, note.) Perhaps as lugged frames coming out of smaller
builders become more popular, the majors will see it as a "trend" and
take them up again. Who nows?
Dave
Richard Sachs
lugs are not in short supply. the only thing that has changed
is that cheap, pricepoint lugs no longer exist because most
frames are tigged or nonferrous - the industrial made ones,
that is. my lugs (and a newer set to be available after july
1st), fork crowns, and frame dropouts are explained here
with some text that was outed about 22 months ago:
http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachslugs.html
these are now used by many american and some italian builders.
e-RICHIE
richar...@juno.com
www.richardsachs.com
"Dave Stallard" <stal...@bbn.com> wrote in message
news:2j6cvqF...@uni-berlin.de...
Tim McNamara
> You asked for the best? Richard Sachs, without a doubt.
Wonderful frames. But the best without a doubt? Well, that's not so
clear. Chris Kvale, Richard Moon, Bilenky, etc are all great frames
and rival Sachs.
> As for me, I lusted after one for several years (like 20+) but when
> it came down to it, I couldn't stomach the 2 1/2 year wait. I went
> with a Ritchey Road Logic steel frame/fork instead. Not custom
> made, not lugged, and not made in the US (though finished and
> painted here). It set me back $929 with custom paint and took 2
> months from order to delivery. That's a little longer than normal
> for them, but Ritchey changed shop locations and warehouses in the
> middle of the order. Normally it's 4-5 weeks.
>
> Couldn't be happier. It's a dream ride (some say it rivals the
> Sachs) and actually weighs less. Tthe paint and finish work are
> nice, but not Sachs/Bell quality. I'm satisfied for the money I
> spent.
I have a Ritchey Road Classic (all fillet brazed) which used the same
tubes and geometry at the time it was built (Tange Prestige drawn to
TR's specs). I bought it used from the guy TR built it for. I'll
second Erastus' comments: a superb handling frame, almost telepathic,
very sure around twisty turns, over bumpy surfaces and yet stable. A
nice balance of handling properties. IMHO you couldn't go wrong with
a TR frame.
Tim McNamara
> I'm basically just looking for a nice, light, production steel frame
> with lugs--
That simplifies it:
www.heronbicycles.com
www.kogswell.com
www.rivendellbicycles.com and look at the Rambouillet.
If you want a little more upscale, then Waterford.
Dave Stallard
> lugs are not in short supply. the only thing that has changed
> is that cheap, pricepoint lugs no longer exist because most
> frames are tigged or nonferrous - the industrial made ones,
> that is. my lugs (and a newer set to be available after july
> 1st), fork crowns, and frame dropouts are explained here
> with some text that was outed about 22 months ago:
> http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachslugs.html
I looked at these pix. Wow. Like something from the Museum of Modern
Art...
I've seen one or two of your frames out on the roads, and they looked
very nice.
Dave
Russell Seaton
> From what I understand, Waterford uses 853 tubesets in the lugged 2200
> model and from what I hear, they are quite lightweight. What type of
> steel is used in Herons and how do weights compare to the Waterford
> 2200s?
I have a Waterford 1200 frame and fork. 58 cm size. 1995 production
I think. The finest of the finest Reynolds 753 tubing. Fork is 531.
I suspect it is similar in weight to a Reynolds 853 Waterford 2200
frame and fork. Frame is 4 pounds even. Fork is 1.5 pounds even.
Whether you consider 4 pounds and 1.5 pounds "quite lightweight" is up
to you.
Russell Seaton
> I've been looking around for a great American-made LUGGED steel frame
> (preferably with 853 steel). I don't need anything custom, just a
> regular size. I've looked at Waterford, but they are WAY too
> expensive for what I need (all the custom stuff they do obviously adds
> to the price). Does anybody know of a builder/company that makes
> great lugged steel (e.g. 853 tubeset) frames for less money?
>
I have a Waterford 1200 and think its fabulous. I was fortunate to
purchase it through Gary Hobbs back in 1998 for $900. Frame and fork.
At the time Waterford was selling them for $1400 I believe. The 1200
was dropped in the late 1990s I think. I think the 2200 is around
$2000 or so now. I don't know if I could or would drop that kind of
money on a frame and fork. But I might now that I know how wonderful
my Waterford is. It probably is worth whatever they are charging now
days.
But, if USA made lugged steel production frames are a bit out of
reach, consider looking at British shops and/or websites. I am pretty
sure I have seen British made Reynolds tubed lugged bikes fairly
cheap. Sometimes name brand, sometimes house brand of whichever shop
is selling them. Not sure if SJS Cycles has a road racing frame and
fork or not.
Tim McNamara
> Whether you consider 4 pounds and 1.5 pounds "quite lightweight" is
> up to you.
There's an excellent point! I think that's a very reasonable weight
for a frame, but then I'm 6'4" and 215 lbs.
Jay Beattie
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:m2llipu...@Stella-Blue.local...
Tim, you are getting a little too zen here. Let me say it again
with even more emphasis than usual: it is just metal fabrication.
Two bikes with the same material and the same geometry are going
to ride the same. The difference will be in aesthetics and
longevity. A poorly crafted frame may break from overheating or
under filling of a joints or a dynafile nick or something of the
sort. Aesthetics, of course, is a matter of taste. The best
bike in the world is the one you like the most; that fits and
that lasts. -- Jay Beattie.
Richard Sachs
"Jay Beattie" <jbea...@lindsayhart.com>
"Let me say it again with even more emphasis than usual: it is just metal
fabrication.
Two bikes with the same material and the same geometry are going to ride the
same."
this is a fact?
e-RICHIE
Tim McNamara
You seem to be reading something into my comments, Jay, that isn't
there. I'm just commenting on the Ritchey's ride and noting that it
is the same geometry and tubes as the Logic frames- however, mine is
old enough that it was made with Prestige tubing whereas the new ones
are made with different tubes, since Prestige is no longer available.
FWIW the choice of frame material has little if any effect on how the
bike rides (a horse that's been thrashed many times already). TR's
mass produced frames ride just the same as his handbuilt ones.
Ritchey's geometry shows his years of experience yielding the best
riding bike I've ever ridden- far superior IMHO to any Reparto Corsa
Bianchi, any Colnago, any Fondriest, any Trek, any Cannondale, etc,
that I've ever ridden or raced on. It's the best handling bike I've
ever ridden, bar none.
Donald Gillies
some options :
Grand-Daddy of American Custom Framebuilding (early 1970's) :
Builders of the Late 1970's / Early 1980's :
http://www.waterfordbike.com # new management in 1980
http://www.brucegordoncycles.com # amazing details not shown on website
http://www.richardsachs.com # amazing
http://www.cwo.com/~lunarlab/ # amazing framebuilding hobby
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Baylis/Baylis_main.htm # paints; builds rarely.
Look at the Bike Lugs Gallery and you decide !!!
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
Jay Beattie
"Richard Sachs" <richar...@jsbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:N8tzc.25576$hM7....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
I would certainly hope so, otherwise there would be no
consistency from bicycle to bicycle by the same manufacturer or
even the same builder. If you were given the exact same
materials and shop drawings as Tom Kellogg and Albert Eisentraut
and Bruce Gordon, for example, and assuming that all of you
followed the drawings scrupulously, would there be a difference
in ride quality between your respective frames? If so, I can't
imagine why. -- Jay Beattie.
Richard Sachs
the hand-eye coordination - and a host of other "intangibles" -
all serve to affect the final product.
to be agreeable, i'd suggest all like-designed 'trauts ride
similarly, or tom's frames, or mine. but will all of ours
ride alike - even if we parrot a scripted design? i doubt it.
e-RICHIE
"Jay Beattie" <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
news:10cudgg...@corp.supernews.com...
Dave Thompson
Tom Nakashima
Yes, Richard Sachs please continue, would love to hear what a master frame
builder
has to say on this matter. It's not everyday we see an expert come by.
-tom
Richard Sachs
i've already stated my position.
see the post above dave thompson's.
e-RICHIE
Tim McNamara
> i believe the sequence of assembly, the heating cycles, the hand-eye
> coordination - and a host of other "intangibles" - all serve to
> affect the final product.
But are these effects in any way measurable or perceivable? That's
the key question. It'd be an interesting experiment, wouldn't it?
Send one frame drawing to five frame builders, have them built and
painted without decals, equip the frames identically, and then see if
people can tell them apart in set of blind tests. It'd be interesting
to do it two ways- one with tube specs and one with free tube choice
by the builders. The first condition isolates the items you identify;
the second adds whatever differences might be introduced by the tube
sets.
Maybe this could be done as a part of the 2005 Technical Trials being
hosted by Adventure Corps and Vintage Bicycle Quarterly.
Jay Beattie
The only thing that comes to mind is air hardening differences
based on assembly sequencing and heating cycles. I think some
people claim that air-hardening or over hardening affects ride
quality -- but I do not think that any of the air hardening
tubesets harden at brazing temperatures. I think over-heating
caused annealing of old style tubes like 531, so there might be
some softening at the joint -- but I doubt that would perceivably
affect ride quality, although it would affect longevity.
Moreover, significant softening would mean that the fabricator is
screwing up. My hypothetical assumed that everyone is following
directions and is good at what they do. But, again, I am not
attuned to all the subtleties of frame building. There maybe a
measurable difference in ride quality where two competent
builders fabricate the same frame. I just have a hard time with
"intangibles," especially if they cost a lot of money. It starts
becoming too much like HiFi or wine. "My frame is resilient, but
not insouciant. It is very smooth, like a closely shaved peach
but not quite a nectarine." Man, my bikes get thrashed, and these
types of subtleties would be entirely lost on me. -- Jay Beattie.
Richard Sachs
e-RICHIE
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:m2n0343...@Stella-Blue.local...
Benjamin Weiner
But if you restrict the builders to a set of provided specs
and even a set of tubes, then what they are building aren't
necessarily really "their" bikes. That is, if a builder holds
the torch to a frame but is required to make choices that go
against what he or she would usually do, is it a genuine
Sachs/Weigle/Rivendell/whatever? That's an aesthetic question
about which people may disagree.
I'm saying this although I think tubeset is the least important
thing about a frame, and I am not much of a believer in ineffable
ride quality - basically I'm an insensitive clod that can't tell
much difference between frames, as long as they are easy to
ride no-hands (I don't like twitchy bikes that won't). I'm happy
with the idea that a bike has some mojo imparted by the builder
which can't be quantified and isn't necessarily measurable in the
handling characteristics either. Even clods like me would rather
ride an aesthetically pleasing frame which has been lovingly
constructed rather than slapped together.
Technical trials might eliminate some variables and make some
tests (although I wonder if "ride quality" can ever really be
defined) but I feel that trying to eliminate the author's mojo
from an artisanal activity is missing the point.
Todd Kuzma
richar...@jsbcglobal.net wrote on 6/15/04 1:34 PM:
> i believe the sequence of assembly, the heating cycles,
> the hand-eye coordination - and a host of other "intangibles" -
> all serve to affect the final product.
> to be agreeable, i'd suggest all like-designed 'trauts ride
> similarly, or tom's frames, or mine. but will all of ours
> ride alike - even if we parrot a scripted design? i doubt it.
e-Richie,
It's conceivable that the things listed above would affect durability of the
frame or even its performance in a collision. However, how would they
affect ride quality? It seems from your other responses that you don't want
to enter the debate beyond what you've already stated, but you are making a
pretty big claim here.
I'd argue that if you, Eisentraut, and Ritchey each built a frame with the
same geometry and tubing that experienced riders would notice absolutely no
difference in ride quality. I'd argue that a frame with the same spec built
by an apprentice at Waterford would ride the same as well. How could it
not?
How does the sequence of assembly or heating cycles affect ride quality?
How does the brazing of a joint affect handling?
I just love it when we get into "intangibles" and subjective measurements
because it frees folks from any sort of scientific proof or technical
discussion.
Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, IL
Richard Sachs
i don't know the answer to some of the questions you
ask here. from what i know, you're a retailer - and i
handle these materials daily and make them into frames.
my intuition, my "gut" feeling, based on 30 years (yuck i
hate saying stuff like this...) is that there is a difference.
perhaps you're right: maybe the difference is in the longevity
of the item rather than how it feels, but as a maker it is
difficult for me to seperate all the details from each other.
i believe there's a reason that the good stuff is sought after
and also lasts longer than the mediocre stuff. i won't address
the motivations of the other guys listed in this hypothetical,
but - for me, if i believed the frames would all be the same
there'd be no reason to come in to work. all this stuff is
hand-made, warts and all. that hand-made process somehow
transforms raw material into a finished product. it's not as
simple as summoning up a geometry and executing it with
some pipe. as i wrote previously, the human element is part
of the equation - and that's no different than the test control
also suggested earlier in which humans would try to discern
the difference some here insist don't exist.
e-RICHIE
Lyle Beaulac
for you. Having said that, permit me to offer this alternative:
The most venerable member of my bike club swears by the comfort of his
Mariposa. At 76, he's had plenty of time in the saddle to form an opinion.
Mariposas are built by Mike Barry in Toronto. Web site
http://bikespecialties.com/bikes.html. Don't know what the cost or lead time
is, but you'll probably find the USD-CDN exchange rate gives you a heck of a
deal.
Regards,
Lyle Beaulac
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:m2hdtdu...@Stella-Blue.local...
Paul Southworth
Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>Send one frame drawing to five frame builders, have them built and
>painted without decals, equip the frames identically, and then see if
>people can tell them apart in set of blind tests.
Whatever those people tell me, I can still conclude nothing about
whether I'd like any of the five.
--Paul
Ted Bennett
"Richard Sachs" <richar...@jsbcglobal.net> wrote:
> you want to know the truth?
> i don't know the answer to some of the questions you
> ask here. from what i know, you're a retailer - and i
> handle these materials daily and make them into frames.
> my intuition, my "gut" feeling, based on 30 years (yuck i
> hate saying stuff like this...) is that there is a difference.
> perhaps you're right: maybe the difference is in the longevity
> of the item rather than how it feels, but as a maker it is
> difficult for me to seperate all the details from each other.
> i believe there's a reason that the good stuff is sought after
> and also lasts longer than the mediocre stuff. i won't address
> the motivations of the other guys listed in this hypothetical,
> but - for me, if i believed the frames would all be the same
> there'd be no reason to come in to work. all this stuff is
> hand-made, warts and all. that hand-made process somehow
> transforms raw material into a finished product. it's not as
> simple as summoning up a geometry and executing it with
> some pipe. as i wrote previously, the human element is part
> of the equation - and that's no different than the test control
> also suggested earlier in which humans would try to discern
> the difference some here insist don't exist.
> e-RICHIE
Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.
--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR
Dan Daniel
Huh? He has articulated a good part of what he thinks makes a good
bike in this thread. You obviously disagree with his reasons, but I
don't think that it is accurate on your part to equate your
disagreement with his being inarticulate.
Richard Sachs
> Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder of very
> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
> unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods.
> Portland OR
i'm sorry to disappoint you, ted.
i thought this was about why like-designed frames would
not ride similarly. when did the question of "what makes
a good bike" come up?
e-RICHIE
Tom Nakashima
"Ted Bennett" <tedbe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tedbennett-FDD50...@news4.west.earthlink.net...
Isn't that up for the rider to decide?
-tom
Jay Beattie
"Todd Kuzma" <tul...@theramp.net> wrote in message
news:BCF513FC.1EBCC%tul...@theramp.net...
I struggled with this one, too. Perhaps air hardening or
annealing would have an effect, but it probably would be
imperceivable. I would also assume that all of the builders know
how to not cook a frame. -- Jay Beattie.
Ted Bennett
It didn't come up, Richie. Sorry to confuse the issue.
What I was reacting to was your implication that fabrication details
like the order of joints has some bearing on how a bike rides. I just
don't see how it could influence the ride or the handling. If someone
builds a bike with the same tubing and geometry as one you built, and
that person does a good job with the mitering and the brazing/welding,
then it's the same bike. Except for the paint and the cachet of the
name of the builder.
Ted
Steven L. Sheffield
> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
> frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
> lugs are getting harder to find.
Purveyors of lugs online:
Pacenti Cycle Designs - http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html
Richard Sachs Cycles - http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachstoys.html
Richard Sachs
two people can use the same bread recipe,
use the same camera to take a picture, use
the same oil paint and brushes to create a
landscape - etcetera.
the human element is part of the equation.
how can it not be?
e-RICHIE
"Ted Bennett" <tedbe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tedbennett-417E0...@news3.west.earthlink.net...
Ted Bennett
> two people can use the same bread recipe,
> use the same camera to take a picture, use
> the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> landscape - etcetera.
> the human element is part of the equation.
> how can it not be?
> e-RICHIE
Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same materials
and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture if the same
camera, film, location and focus are used.
Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control the
many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That is not
really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73 degree
angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made or it is
not.
I'm sure you don't mean to imply with your landscape painting example
that paint makes any difference at all in how a bike steers. Paint on a
bike has a effect on the longevity of a bike and on the owner's
satisfaction with it, as well as its perceived value.
I'd like to be clear about my opinions of Richard Sachs' bikes. They
are at the pinnacle of fine bicycles, because of good design and skilled
construction. But as long as the same design, materials and proper
methods are used, they won't ride any better just because Richard Sachs
has built it.
Of course the human element matters. I can't produce a bike like a
Sachs.
Richard Sachs
the paint/landscape example was not linked to paint on a bicycle.
your kind words re my frames are duly noted and i thank you for them.
seperately,
although it's not part of the original question posted, if all like-designed
frames ride identically, what else is there? most frames last forever. most
frames satisfy the consumer needs of the clients who buy them. how could
there be a pecking order within the levels of quality that purportedly exist
among the "really fine" bicycles? i'm not certain i can add much of a reply
to that question except to note my earlier comments wrt the human element
in the assembly process.
e-RICHIE
"Ted Bennett" <tedbe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tedbennett-B6324...@news3.west.earthlink.net...
Jay Beattie
> ted
> the paint/landscape example was not linked to paint on a
bicycle.
> your kind words re my frames are duly noted and i thank you for
them.
>
> seperately,
> although it's not part of the original question posted, if all
like-designed
> frames ride identically, what else is there? most frames last
forever. most
> frames satisfy the consumer needs of the clients who buy them.
how could
> there be a pecking order within the levels of quality that
purportedly exist
> among the "really fine" bicycles? i'm not certain i can add
much of a reply
> to that question except to note my earlier comments wrt the
human element
> in the assembly process.
> e-RICHIE
You get to be at the top of the pecking order because your frames
are aesthetically pleasing; they are straight, have good
geometry, carefully selected frame components and are fabricated
in such a way that they will not fail prematurely. I do not
agree with you that most steel frames last forever (having broken
three custom frames) and would pay a premium for a builder who
pays careful attention to construction. But with that said, I
have ridden essentially the same bike built by two different
people (a Masi and a Masi knock-off built for me by a local
builder), and I could not tell the difference.
I worked around a frame shop in the '70s and saw an incredible
amount of crap that came in for paint -- including frames with
brass filled file dings, incomplete brazing of joints, crooked
frames, etc. And these were well known and expensive brands,
some by custom builders in the Bay Area. With the new,
thin-walled steel tubes, craftsmanship is even more important. I
do not think people appreciate how much can be hidden by paint
and where the real value is in buying a bicycle from a respected
builder. -- Jay Beattie.
Richard Sachs
it <is> the human element.
e-RICHIE
"Jay Beattie" <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
news:10d18st...@corp.supernews.com...
Tom Nakashima
> > i disagree.
> > two people can use the same bread recipe,
> > use the same camera to take a picture, use
> > the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> > landscape - etcetera.
> > the human element is part of the equation.
> > how can it not be?
> > e-RICHIE
>
>
> Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same materials
> and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture if the same
> camera, film, location and focus are used.
>
> Ted Bennett
> Portland OR
Not always Ted,
I spoke with a Chef at a famous Italian restaurant. He gave the recipe (a
pasta marinade) to my friend who's also a great cook. She asked; "usually a
Chef won't give out their personal recipe?" He said, it doesn't matter,
because it won't taste the same. Depends how you mix it, how you simmer it,
for how long, and what temperature. The same could apply to frame
building.
Years ago, I read a good article by Dave Moulton, also a master frame
builder. In the article he gave in detail how he makes his frames and why.
How the downtube sets the foundation for alignment and how it's going to
ride. He was very detailed in his description. He also said that he can
make two frames with the same tubing, in the same size, same angles, same
paint, same components, including rims and tires and air pressure, and the
two will ride slightly different.
I have an old 1977 custom Rodriguez made of Reynolds 531 and it rides very
well, or maybe after all these yeas I've gotten just used to it, and nothing
in the world will ride better (physiological). I know the frame is getting
old and I've always wanted to ride a Richard Sachs frame, because of his
reputation for paying attention to detail. His frames are expensive but I
believe worth every penny, the only thing that's holding me back is the 1%
chance that it might not ride as good as the Rodriguez.
That's why I said in and early post; " it's up to the rider to decide how it
rides." Another words, All Richard Sachs can do as other master frame
builders, is make the frame to the best of his knowledge, 30+ years of
experience and frame building skills, but it's up to me to decide how it
rides.
Off the bike subject:
Not sure if this is a good analogy, but I used to play a lot of 9-ball
(billiards). On the break, with the same pool cue, same rack (position of
the balls 1-9), same position on the cue ball, same location on contact with
the same speed of the cue stick, the balls never end up in the same
place...not even close.
-tom
Steven L. Sheffield
> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of boutique
> frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's cheaper, and
> lugs are getting harder to find.
Lugs available for purchase from Pacenti Cycle Designs:
http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html
and from Richard Sachs Cycles:
Tim McNamara
> two people can use the same bread recipe, use the same camera to
> take a picture, use the same oil paint and brushes to create a
> landscape - etcetera. the human element is part of the equation.
> how can it not be?
Certainly in terms of aesthetics this is the case. I suspect that if
we took 20 different frames from 10 different builders and sandblasted
them clean, you'd still be able to pick out yours with confidence.
Someone familiar with your work might be able to do the same, if
they're used to seeing your frames before painting. There are going
to be details that only you do; less evident to this type examination,
your approach to fitting is probably different (to a degree at least)
than what other custom builders do. IMHO it's those things that make
your customers want a Richard Sachs- just as there were specifics
about Alex Singer bikes that made some people want those. It's those
things, which are really meotional in nature, that give custom bikes
their value.
The questions about whether "microscopic" details- pinning the joints,
the order of joining, the heating sequence of each joint, etc- make a
perceptible difference in the ride is unresolved. But you did
suggest, in an earlier post, that they did. I tend to doubt it, but
then I haven't had a chance to compare different frames in this way
and probably never will- I can't afford all those custom frames! (But
I can dream, can't I?) I can tell some differences in feel between
frames with differing geometries (my Ritchey Road Classic and my
Rivendell All-Rounder and my old Windsor Profesional track bike all
ride noticeably differently, for example), because those differences
are fairly coarse-grained; are fine-grained differences such as
brazing order or heating sequence going to be registerable to human
sensory apparati? I'm interested in that question, probbaly because
I'm a psychologist, but don't have the means of testing it. And I
doubt there is grant money available for this sort of thing.
Tim McNamara
>> i disagree. two people can use the same bread recipe, use the same
>> camera to take a picture, use the same oil paint and brushes to
>> create a landscape - etcetera. the human element is part of the
>> equation. how can it not be?
>
> Two bakers will produce identical loaves if they use the same
> materials and methods. Two photographers will have the same picture
> if the same camera, film, location and focus are used.
Well, no, that's not true in either case. There's still going to be
variability unless you overcontrol the experiment so tightly as to
remove all individual variability and render your subject little more
than wetware robots. Psychological research has been making that same
error for over 100 years, fouling up the results of our research in
many cases (especially perceptual research).
> Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control
> the many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That
> is not really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73
> degree angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made
> or it is not.
Well, that was at the heart of my suggestion to compare whether the
"microscopic" differences between framebuilders have an effect on ride
quality when the "macroscopic" differences are controlled (tubing
lengths and angles).
> I'd like to be clear about my opinions of Richard Sachs' bikes.
> They are at the pinnacle of fine bicycles, because of good design
> and skilled construction. But as long as the same design, materials
> and proper methods are used, they won't ride any better just because
> Richard Sachs has built it.
But dang, that Sachs frame is going to be gorgeous! I could braze one
together to the same specs, and the lack of skills would be painfully
obvious. Would it ride differently- it would certainly be uglier, but
if you closed your eyes and rode, would it feel different? That's the
question. (BTW, I think it would feel different with your eyes open,
looking at Sachs's crisp clean workmanship versus my blobby and
blurred lug shorelines... you'd have a *lot* more confidence in
Richard's work!).
Richard Sachs
" I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't had a chance to compare different
no disrepect intended, but you're right - you probably never will, and
since you don't handle the raw material, it makes it that much harder to
grasp how the human hand - the human element - comes into play. in all
fairness, i said earlier that i can't quanify it either (this <is> rbtech,
after
all...), but i believe it is part of the equation.
and, sorry - i know i shouldn't ask questions i don't know the answer to -
but
i know we have a lawyer here - why is it that there are good ones and not
so good ones when the law is the law? i'm not trying to shift gears here,
but
only to suggest that law - much like some frame building assembly
processes -
is open to interpretation yet verdicts often depend on the skill of the
lawyer.
apologies in advance if that analogy is just so bad!!!
e-RICHIE
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:m2d63zf...@Stella-Blue.local...
Tim McNamara
> Dave Stallard <stal...@bbn.com> wrote in message
> news:<2j658iF...@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>> Neither of these builders is cheap. Bear in mind that lugged steel
>> frames are on the way out, and are increasingly the domain of
>> boutique frame builders. More bikes are TIG welded nowadays - it's
>> cheaper, and lugs are getting harder to find.
Steel is on its way out, at least for the time being and at least as
far as mass-produced bikes are concerned, because aluminum is cheap,
easy to work, fits the style of the times better, and people are under
the illusion that a pound of aluminum weighs less than a pound of
steel.
Of course, all this stuff is cyclical. 60 years ago the French were
making sub-20 pound bikes with threadless stems, full fenders,
labyrinth sealed bearing hubs and bottom brackets, lights and racks
out of aluminum, thin walled steel, etc. There was a flourishing
custom bike industry all around France.
> Purveyors of lugs online:
>
> Pacenti Cycle Designs - http://www.bikelugs.com/pacentiproducts.html
> Richard Sachs Cycles - http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachstoys.html
In addition, www.ceeway.com has a whole lotta lugs (baa-bump baa-bump
gotta whole lot o' lugs, baa-bump baa-bump gotta whole lot o' lugs,
baa-bump baa-bump gotta whole lot o' lugs... uuhh sorry. Got
distracted there for a minute) to choose from, and let's not forget
Henry James! The state of lugged frames is probably as good now (or
better) that it has ever been. Certainly lugs themselves have never
been more precisely made than now.
Donald Gillies
>I'd argue that if you, Eisentraut, and Ritchey each built a frame with the
>same geometry and tubing that experienced riders would notice absolutely no
>difference in ride quality. I'd argue that a frame with the same spec built
>by an apprentice at Waterford would ride the same as well. How could it
>not?
Gosh, stradivarius violins were all made with 17th century wood, why
is it that they are the most sought-after violins in modern history ??
I think that all builders who use common components and common tubing
in the same ways with the same brazing, are likely to make frames that
handle somewhat the same, and the build with the best pinning and
brazing the frame will make the longer-lived product.
After working closely with Brian Baylis, Brian taught and showed me
how to identify the telltale marks of a masterful american builder.
These details would be much cleaner (and probably more durable), but
would it affect ride quality? Not as much as it affects "WOW" quality
when you take a close-up look at the frame from 6 inches away.
There was something unique about the wood in that Italian forest, the
varnish, the geometry, the cut, and maybe even the glue used in a
stradivarius violin. Only a top-notch maker might notice this "random
bit of good luck" and have the skills to repeat the "good luck" over
and over and over again.
This is why, upon reflection, I'd buy from a maker (like e-Ritchie)
who is searching for the holy grail in bicycles - and is now making
his own lugs - with 30 years of practice to back him up.
To buy a generic waterford with generic henry james lugs cut in a
"Simplicity" pattern design just doesn't seem to me, to have a chance
of becoming like a stradivarius in 100 years.
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
Jay Beattie
Do not compare metal fab to lawyering. That is too scary. The
variability of result you get in lawyering has no place in metal
fab -- or gardening, or even bartending. -- Jay Beattie.
Richard Sachs
e-RICHIE
"Jay Beattie" <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
news:10d1l0b...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Richard Sachs" <richar...@jsbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:MW3Ac.2038$Pt....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Jay Beattie
> alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!
> e-RICHIE
Twelve human elements to be exact. I just got a verdict on
Monday in a month long products trial. Let me tell you Richard,
if you made frames like juries made verdicts . . . -- Jay
Beattie.
Tom Sherman
> ...
>>
>>How does the sequence of assembly or heating cycles affect ride
>
> quality?
>
>>How does the brazing of a joint affect handling?
>
>
> I struggled with this one, too. Perhaps air hardening or
> annealing would have an effect, but it probably would be
> imperceivable. I would also assume that all of the builders know
> how to not cook a frame. -- Jay Beattie.
The modulus of elasticity of various steels changes very little with
heat treatment, so the effect of heat treatment (deliberate or
incidental) history would have no significant effect on ride quality. Of
course, the heat treatment history will have a major impact on
durability/fatigue life of the joint.
--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area
Richard Chan
> ... Naturally, that does not happen because it's not possible to control the
> many variables. In fact, not all the variables are known. That is not
> really true for metal fabrication. A 73 degree angle is a 73 degree
> angle, and 45 mm trail specification is either correctly made or it is
> not. ...>
You are a man of practical wisdom, I am in your camp.
I have owned many fine steel frames, almost 100% Italian except an
Oria tubed Ken Legge (retired) custom and Mr. Legge practiced the
Italian art. My favorite is an used $89 Viner, Columbus SL with
handcut (rough edges) lugs and Gios type flat crown. It combined the
best of a Colnago Super and a Gios Torino Super Record. The brazing
(job) is so good that it brings tears to my eyes every time I look at
it. The paint has wrinkles, the decals flaked, but I love this frame
unconditionally. It is the practical perfection that I treasure.
frank121
> You are a man of practical wisdom, I am in your camp.
>
> I have owned many fine steel frames, almost 100% Italian except an
> Oria tubed Ken Legge (retired) custom and Mr. Legge practiced the
> Italian art. My favorite is an used $89 Viner, Columbus SL with
> handcut (rough edges) lugs and Gios type flat crown. It combined the
> best of a Colnago Super and a Gios Torino Super Record. The brazing
> (job) is so good that it brings tears to my eyes every time I look at
> it. The paint has wrinkles, the decals flaked, but I love this frame
> unconditionally. It is the practical perfection that I treasure.
I really can hear the feeling you have for your Viner! I think I had
mentioned to you having owned a Tommasini SLX Super Prestige a few years ago
and selling it and then wishing I had never done so. I was fortunate enough
a few months ago to come across another Tommasini SLX Super Prestige f/f
with less than 200 miles on it and snatched it up. I built it up and love
the ride and workmanship of it and have no plans to let this one get away
from me.
Frank
Qui si parla Campagnolo
> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
Ye gods indeed, Be content on your mass produced, no heart present, no 'magic'
feel present frameset.
An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art' riding
frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to produce one of
the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence today. If ya think
that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with your cookie cutter
frameset.
I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel' better.
Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
Todd Kuzma
> An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art' riding
> frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to produce one of
> the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence today. If ya think
> that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with your cookie cutter
> frameset.
>
> I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel' better.
Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
those generic, cookie cutter bikes. Let them ride harsh
aero-wheels and slick tires that hydroplane in the rain.
Anyone can hammer the nail that hangs the picture, but a
true "artiste" hammers the nail in a special way based on
years of experience and knowledge. A picture hung by such a
person certainly "looks" different, and pity the poor fools
who cannot see the difference.
Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com
Tom Nakashima
"Todd Kuzma" <tul...@TheRamp.net> wrote in message
news:40D1C1A8...@TheRamp.net...
Bikes are made to be ridden! I feel the best part about a bike is not how
they look, but how they feel on the road, whether they be a cookie-cutter
frame or an expensive handmade custom, it's the choice of the rider.
One thing I won't do, is belittle a fellow cyclist's bike, at least they're
out there riding.
-tom
Matt O'Toole
> Ted-<< Well, there you have it. A respected and experienced builder
> of very
>> fine bicycles, trotting out the lore of the ancients because he is
>> unable to articulate what makes a good bike. Ye gods. >><BR><BR>
> Ye gods indeed, Be content on your mass produced, no heart present,
> no 'magic' feel present frameset.
>
> An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work or art'
> riding frameset.
The engineers at Reynolds, True Temper, Columbus, etc., have already done that
work -- designing the tubes, and specifying the joining techniques
(welded/lugged/brazed). The builder follows that recipe, with a personal touch,
which is mostly aesthetic.
> This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience to
> produce one of the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in
> existence today.
Mr. Sachs' frames are beautiful. State of the art of the art, so to speak.
> If ya think that the 'heart' of the builder means
> nada, be happy with your cookie cutter frameset.
>
> I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just 'feel'
> better.
Me too, but I don't think it has anything to do with the builder's "touch" --
it's a matter of geometry, stiffness, and acoustics, which are all design
issues. The builder is responsible for these, but it comes from his head, not
his hands or his torch.
Matt O.
Todd Kuzma
> Bikes are made to be ridden! I feel the best part about a bike is not how
> they look, but how they feel on the road, whether they be a cookie-cutter
> frame or an expensive handmade custom, it's the choice of the rider.
> One thing I won't do, is belittle a fellow cyclist's bike, at least they're
> out there riding.
I agree! However, I was not the one making the claim that
certain builders can craft magical properties into their
frames. I think that Richard Sachs frames are way cool and
definitely worth the money. Magic, however, they are not.
Jay Beattie
"Todd Kuzma" <tul...@TheRamp.net> wrote in message
news:40D1C1A8...@TheRamp.net...
>
> > An engineer or scientist is not necessary to produce a 'work
or art' riding
> > frameset. This guy uses his hands, knowledge and experience
to produce one of
> > the prettiest, best riding bicycle framesets in existence
today. If ya think
> > that the 'heart' of the builder means nada, be happy with
your cookie cutter
> > frameset.
> >
> > I have ridden 'blah' framesets and have ridden ones that just
'feel' better.
>
> Ah yes, let's drift in the impossible-to-quantify land of
> magic pixie dust and mojo. Riders who can't feel the magic
> ride, of course, are unworthy and should be banished to
> those generic, cookie cutter bikes. Let them ride harsh
> aero-wheels and slick tires that hydroplane in the rain.
>
> Anyone can hammer the nail that hangs the picture, but a
> true "artiste" hammers the nail in a special way based on
> years of experience and knowledge. A picture hung by such a
> person certainly "looks" different, and pity the poor fools
> who cannot see the difference.
Gee, Todd, these subjective impressions are not impossible to
quantify and are subject to the well known theory of relative
cachet which is expressed as M= $(PD), with M being Mojo, PD
being Pixie Dust and $ being money. Mojo is, of course,
regulated by the CPSC and the amount of mojo for a given product
may not exceed the statutory maximum. YMMV (your mojo may
vary). -- Jay Beattie.
Tom Nakashima
"Todd Kuzma" <tul...@TheRamp.net> wrote in message
bike rides very well, just a fragment of speech.
The 27 year old Rodriguez I ride, I would like to think it's magic because
I've never rode a bike that feels as good on the road. It's bland, been
painted twice, one color with no decals, but don't really care about the
looks.
About these Cycling Icons who have been in the business for the long haul, I
do have to respect. Sometimes we have mental pictures of what we think they
should be.
When I met Joe Bell, the famous bike painter, I asked him; "you must be
making a fortune here as one of the best frame painters in the world?" He
laughed and told me, oh no, lots of people think I make a lot of money, but
I'm just making an honest living.
When I met Jobst Brandt, author of the Bicycle Wheel, I pictured this person
riding the most expensive clean shined bike, with the latest bike
components. I was surprised when riding next to him on his old yellow steel
frame bike that looked like it's been through a war, friction shifters and
cables sprouting out the top of the brake hoods.
I once raced an old guy to the top of a local mountain pass, as he was
cussing me everytime we changed leads (all in good fun), I was thinking at
the time, Who is this old fart? only to find out later it was Gary Fisher.
Tom Ritchey looked more like a rock musician than a frame builder when I met
him. Always thought he was a wild man, but he's actually soft spoken.
Sometimes it's about respect.
-tom
Tim McNamara
> snipped: " I tend to doubt it, but then I haven't had a chance to
> compare different frames in this way and probably never will..."
>
> no disrepect intended, but you're right - you probably never will,
> and since you don't handle the raw material, it makes it that much
> harder to grasp how the human hand - the human element - comes into
> play.
Well, I am learning to braze and to build frames thanks to the
patience of a friend who is a frame builder, so I hope to have at
least some understanding of this aspect someday. Although since I
don't plan to quit my day job, I doubt I'll build enough frames to
become as proficient as someone like yourself.
Tim McNamara
> alas - the human element provides the variable, eh?!
Too many human variables in the example of lawyering. Building a
frame, there's one human variable- the builder. In lawyering, the
human variables include the plaintiff and their lawyer, the defendnt
and their lawyer, the witnesses, the judge, etc.
For an equivalent situation in building a frame, you'd have to have
Richard Moon measure the rider, Curt Goodrich cut the tubes, Albert
Eisentraut miter them, Joe Starck prep the lugs, Peter Weigle braze
the bottom bracket, Mark Nobilette braze the stays, Richard Sachs
braze the main triangle, and Chris Kvale do the filing. Or substitute
your favorite frame builders.
Richard Sachs
differs from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is
different from bert's.
i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...),
"a thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood".
it's not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
others do.
e-RICHIE
Richard Sachs
to read. i don't think i began to fully understand the
complete nature of these tasks until nearly 20 years
into the gig. understanding geometry. fitting people.
developing construction methods and sequences that
yield desired results. refining metalworking skills.
these tasks are rather simple in and of themselves,
but combining these, and other important traits too,
to build frames borders on alchemy and i don't think
it's that evident until you're on the "other side" of the
learning curve.
you're on the frame forum if i'm not mistaken - i hope
you'll avail youself of the resources there when you
start your building.
e-RICHIE
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:m2pt7ym...@Stella-Blue.local...
Richard Sachs
there's where we disagree. i think goodrich's human element
James Scott
> there's where we disagree. i think goodrich's human element
> differs from moon's. kvale's and mine differ. peter's is
> different from bert's.
> i think it was george nakashima that said (i'm paraphrasing...),
> "a thousand decisions are made before the first cut of the wood".
> it's not that different in framebuilding. these are products of a
> person's experiences and ideals. none of us do what any of the
> others do.
I don't think anyone involved in this discussion will dispute that the
craftsman's skills and experience are critical to the design of the
frame - that is, those "thousand decisions" you wrote of. I think what
some here are questioning is the impact of the assembly/fabrication
skills and process relative to the design skills and process as regards
perceived ride quality. Personally, I think ride quality is more in the
design than the execution. If a builder executes the same design in the
same materials twice, using the same fabrication process, I expect both
finished pieces to have very similar qualities. Give identical inputs to
another builder, and the result will of course be different...but again,
I would expect two examples from that builder to be alike in those
characteristics that we call "ride quality."
This isn't to say that highly refined and experienced assembly technique
aren't valuable, but I think this impacts aesthetics and durability far
more than ride quality. And certainly, anyone who wants a custom frame
wants the entire package.
JLS
--
James "No time for nicknames" Scott
www.jls.cx
Richard Sachs
"If a builder executes the same design in the same materials twice,
using the same fabrication process, I expect both finished pieces to
have very similar qualities. Give identical inputs to another builder,
and the result will of course be different...but again, I would expect
two examples from that builder to be alike in those characteristics
that we call "ride quality."
i think i said as much and it appears that we're in accord here.
e-RICHIE
"James Scott" <jls-ind...@doppke.com> wrote in message
news:2jeesfF...@uni-berlin.de...