Dismantling a Shimano 600 cluster & freewheel
User Bp
How much torque should be required normally to:
Unscrew a freewheel from a hub
and
remove sprockets from the cluster
?
The goal was to disassemble and clean the Shimano 600 freewheel
cluster on an old Cannondale then put it back together with a
new chain, flipped sprockets and chainrings. At the rate I'm
wearing them out, it should last another 23 years.
Tried applying about 150 ft-lbs to unscrew the freewheel, no dice.
Hammering on the small sprocket with a stainless steel punch while
the cluster was held in a vice didn't harm the sprocket, did dent
the punch and failed to unscrew the sprocket. Nothing is
rusty or bent, so the jam is a little surprising. Torque was counter-
clockwise, viewed from the sprocket (right) side of the bike.
It's back together and rideable now, but I'd really like to at least
remove the freewheel so it can be replaced if the cluster is gone.
One thing I didn't try was applying heat (torch). Does anybody think
that will help?
thanks for reading!
bob prohaska
David Scheidt
:Hi all,
:How much torque should be required normally to:
:Unscrew a freewheel from a hub
Lots. Usual practice is to mount the freewheel remover in a vice, and
put torque on the wheel. That's not always enough. I like an impact
wrench, personally. Don't bother trying to take the freewheel apart
though, unless you're spectacularly bored and broke.
--
sig 35
Tom Sherman °_°
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
User Bp
>>
> Did you read Sheldon? <http://sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html>
>
difficult, but no hint was given how much torque might be reasonably
applied. I didn't want to risk wrecking the wheel, and couldn't easily
have applied more force anyway.
The hub has negligible moment of inertia, so even an impact driver or
wrench must be opposed by the spokes and rim. How much torque can an
ordinary bicycle rear wheel withstand?
It was especially surprising that the small cog would not unscrew
using a hammer and punch with enough force to dent the punch, when
the cluster was held in a vise..
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
Jay Beattie
You usually strip or break the tool -- or the bolts holding the vice
or break the bench -- before the wheel goes. I worried more about
getting a hernia than breaking the wheel. -- Jay Beattie.
bjw
This is not a problem to be solved with a punch.
You can make computations of the torque delivered
to the cog by chain tension when someone is pedaling
hard or even standing on the pedals, then recognize
that torque is applied repeatedly, which will tighten
the fit ever so much more by repeated tiny motions.
Or you could just skip the calculations and go for the
big wrench.
I don't have a bench vise, so I remove freewheels
with a remover (fixed to the wheel with a skewer)
a foot-long wrench, and placing the wheel so it's
trying to roll into a corner. Then I hold the wheel,
put my foot on the wrench, and try to get as much
of my weight onto the wrench as possible.
You can't break the wheel this way, but you can
break the tool if you weren't careful about skewering
it on. I usually get the freewheel off, but maybe not
if it has been ridden for 23 years.
Similar considerations apply to getting cogs off a
freewheel, except that you probably need a chain whip
and it's often even harder work for less practical
return.
Ben
Dan O
>
> > Did you read Sheldon? <http://sheldonbrown.com/freewheels.html>
>
> Yes, I did. It was made clear removing an old freewheel would be
> difficult, but no hint was given how much torque might be reasonably
> applied. I didn't want to risk wrecking the wheel, and couldn't easily
> have applied more force anyway.
>
I once had to whack the end of the big crescent wrench handle a few
good solid whacks with a hammer before a freewheel would let go the
hub.
<snip>
Dave
"User Bp" <b...@www.zefox.net> wrote in message
news:iaiqsj$qk6$1...@news.albasani.net...
> Hi all,
>
> The goal was to disassemble and clean the Shimano 600 freewheel
> cluster on an old Cannondale then put it back together with a
> new chain, flipped sprockets and chainrings. At the rate I'm
> wearing them out, it should last another 23 years.
>
>
Bob: Shimano Uniglide FREEWHEEL cogs cannot be flipped. Uniglide CASSETTE
cogs can. They look the same from the outside, but when you remove the
first cog off of the freewheel and look at the splines on the bigger cogs,
then you will realize this.
So if you have worn out the cogs on this freewheel, then it is truly kaput.
The latest generation of Shimano Hyperglide 6 and 7-speed freewheels (HG 22
and HG37 I think) are really cheap (like $15) and shift better than the
Uniglide models ever did. Especially when mated with Shimano's great IG and
HG chains.
Jobst Brandt
> How much torque should be required normally to:
> Unscrew a freewheel from a hub and remove sprockets from the cluster?
Good question. That's why most bicycles are equipped with Freehubs
with spline attachment to the aluminum hub and splined steel body to
accept sprockets... and a hyperlink that is snap retained when holding
the gear cluster on the carrier.
No more great force with "chain whips" for replacing sprockets and no
new sprockets when installing a new chain... and the "freewheel" does
not screw itself on more tightly with every pedal stroke.
Sprocket removal on the Shimano free-hubs requires no great force and,
not being internally threaded, sprockets can be heat treated to last a
long time. A good 1:1 replacement might be a Shimano 7-speed hub. I
think Yellow Jersey still has them.
Jobst Brandt
David Scheidt
:Bob Prohaska wrote:
Freewheel sprockets are all hardened these days.
--
sig 126
AMuzi
Hold your Shimano UG type freewheel tool in a vise, unscrew
the wheel from it.
Hold the low gear in a freewheel vise, unscrew the high gear
with a chain-on-a-stick tool.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/FWVISE2.JPG
You may need an extender tube more more leverage.
Don't heat anything. You're more likely to ignite the
lubricant than to help the situation.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
AMuzi
> :Hi all,
> :How much torque should be required normally to:
> :Unscrew a freewheel from a hub
David Scheidt wrote:
> Lots. Usual practice is to mount the freewheel remover in a vice, and
> put torque on the wheel. That's not always enough. I like an impact
> wrench, personally. Don't bother trying to take the freewheel apart
> though, unless you're spectacularly bored and broke.
Although vice has its own charms, a vise works better for this.
landotter
> > User Bp <b...@www.zefox.net> wrote:
> > :Hi all,
> > :How much torque should be required normally to:
> > :Unscrew a freewheel from a hub
> David Scheidt wrote:
> > Lots. Usual practice is to mount the freewheel remover in a vice, and
> > put torque on the wheel. That's not always enough. I like an impact
> > wrench, personally. Don't bother trying to take the freewheel apart
> > though, unless you're spectacularly bored and broke.
>
> Although vice has its own charms, a vise works better for this.
>
"I keep tearing through this pack of Marlboros, damn freewheel."
Peter Howard
"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:iaki95$kn9$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Unless you were born and educated in English speaking nations outside of North
America in which case the boring workshop tool is spelt exactly the same as all
those fun things that society officially disapproves.
PH
Jobst Brandt
I don't know what you mean by "these days". My last Regina and
Shimano freewheels with screw-on sprockets were not as hard as the
current splined sprockets on Shimano free-hubs. They wore rapidly and
required replacement with a new chain because they wore so fast to the
elongated pitch of a worn chain. The pointed inner edge of threaded
sprockets don't withstand heat treatment without cracking.
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
>> How much torque should be required normally to:
>> Unscrew a freewheel from a hub and remove sprockets from the
>> cluster?
>> The goal was to disassemble and clean the Shimano 600 freewheel
>> cluster on an old Cannondale then put it back together with a new
>> chain, flipped sprockets and chainrings. At the rate I'm wearing
>> them out, it should last another 23 years.
>> Tried applying about 150 ft-lbs to unscrew the freewheel, no dice.
>> Hammering on the small sprocket with a stainless steel punch while
>> the cluster was held in a vice didn't harm the sprocket, did dent
>> the punch and failed to unscrew the sprocket. Nothing is rusty or
>> bent, so the jam is a little surprising. Torque was counter-
>> clockwise, viewed from the sprocket (right) side of the bike.
>> It's back together and ridable now, but I'd really like to at least
>> remove the freewheel so it can be replaced if the cluster is gone.
>> One thing I didn't try was applying heat (torch). Does anybody
>> think that will help?
> Hold your Shimano UG type freewheel tool in a vise, unscrew the
> wheel from it.
> Hold the low gear in a freewheel vise, unscrew the high gear with a
> chain-on-a-stick tool:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/FWVISE2.JPG
Looks like a common "chain whip" but it seems to be tightening the
sprocket... and freewheel in that direction, they having a right-hand
threads.
> You may need an extender tube more more leverage.
> Don't heat anything. You're more likely to ignite the lubricant than
> to help the situation.
...and destroy the fine ratchet pawl springs inside.
Jobst Brandt
AMuzi
As is often noted, "assembly is the reverse of disassembly"
James
>
> You may need an extender tube more more leverage.
>
> Don't heat anything. You're more likely to ignite the
> lubricant than to help the situation.
I've torn the thread off MTB hubs before, trying to unscrew a
freewheel. Be prepared...
JS.
David Scheidt
:David Scheidt wrote:
:>>> How much torque should be required normally to:
:>>> Unscrew a freewheel from a hub and remove sprockets from the cluster?
:>> Good question. That's why most bicycles are equipped with Freehubs
:>> with spline attachment to the aluminum hub and splined steel body
:>> to accept sprockets... and a hyperlink that is snap retained when
:>> holding the gear cluster on the carrier.
:>> No more great force with "chain whips" for replacing sprockets and
:>> no new sprockets when installing a new chain... and the "freewheel"
:>> does not screw itself on more tightly with every pedal stroke.
:>> Sprocket removal on the Shimano free-hubs requires no great force
:>> and, not being internally threaded, sprockets can be heat treated
:>> to last a long time. A good 1:1 replacement might be a Shimano
:>> 7-speed hub. I think Yellow Jersey still has them.
:> Freewheel sprockets are all hardened these days.
:I don't know what you mean by "these days". My last Regina and
I mean, you know, 2010. I don't care what something that was last
made in 1934 was like. I care about what's on the market today. And
what's on the market these days are freewheels with hardened teeth and
a total absence of screw on cogs.
--
sig 37
Mark J.
Um, no, look at the photo more carefully. Pulling on the longer length
of chain, which is anchored some distance down the bar of the whip, will
unscrew that cog. (Yes, they are right-hand threads).
Mark J.
Jobst Brandt
Then don't ask questions about stuff you feel has been out of use for
a long time, if you believe the mechanism is ancient as in this case.
Jobst Brandt
Jobst Brandt
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/FWVISE2.JPG
So the chain is doubled back to make it look backward. A chain whip
is a crummy and brutal instrument in the first place and no longer
needed with modern free-hubs.
Jobst Brandt
User Bp
>>
>
> Bob: Shimano Uniglide FREEWHEEL cogs cannot be flipped. Uniglide CASSETTE
> cogs can. They look the same from the outside, but when you remove the
> first cog off of the freewheel and look at the splines on the bigger cogs,
> then you will realize this.
>
> So if you have worn out the cogs on this freewheel, then it is truly kaput.
> The latest generation of Shimano Hyperglide 6 and 7-speed freewheels (HG 22
> and HG37 I think) are really cheap (like $15) and shift better than the
> Uniglide models ever did. Especially when mated with Shimano's great IG and
> HG chains.
Hi Dave,
This is the information I needed. If the cogs won't flip the freewheel
needs to come off, if the freewheel won't come off it's time for a new
wheel. Sounds like it's time to ride the wheel till the chain starts
skipping (it does not yet) and then risk breaking it.
One point of nomenclature: The lockring on the freewheel is simply
marked "Shimano 600 sealed", nothing about Uniglide. Where might I
look for the term?
Many thanks for all replies, and especially to Dave.
bob prohaska
James
> So the chain is doubled back to make it look backward. A chain whip
> is a crummy and brutal instrument in the first place and no longer
> needed with modern free-hubs.
I use one every time I unscrew the lock ring from a cassette. Never
had a problem using it and it has always worked as required, without
crumbs or brutality.
Regards,
James.
AMuzi
Not a lockring; it's a black plastic trim piece. It unscrews
or, if stuck, pries out without changing the freewheel's
function in any way.
Original Shimano freewheel remover required that the axle be
removed from the hub first. Later UG remover (current
through 2010) is a better design. These fit most current
freewheels and are larger than the axle locknuts, saving
much anguish.