Carbon wheel press release

[AMuzi]

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping. If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.

[Lou Holtman]

‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350 dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.

Lou

[AMuzi]

On 2/3/2023 2:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
>>>

>> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping. If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.
>

> ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350 dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.
>
> Lou
>

https://cycling.today/cyclist-crashes-on-straight-road-after-carbon-wheel-rim-failure/

https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/deep-carbon-fiber-aero-wheels.464568/page-2

http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/cheap-chinese-carbon-rim-fail-831109-2.html

https://www.facebook.com/Mtbrcom/photos/a.280636258535.146346.196811798535/10152465939073536/?type=1


p.s. humor:
https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/car-made-in-china-vs-bike-bicycle-made-in-germany-accident-fail.jpg

[Roger Merriman]

Buy cheap buy twice comes to mind!

To a extent I did this with my Gravel bike in that it came with cable disks
which never worked well, or occasionally at all!

Though I have enjoyed the upgrade process really! I suspect I’d paid more
doing it this way though!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 13:43:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/

One assumes that as this is the "Cosmic Ultimate" wheel there will
never be a requirement for any further development in bicycle wheels
required :-?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Hmmm. As an amateur observer I'd say the Cosmic Ultimate
will be followed by the Cosmic Ultimate Pro, then the Cosmic
Ultimate Tour de France and so on ad infinitum. Mavic has
used 'Cosmic' in various forms for 30 years already.

Which is better than just calling every redesign since 1960
'Record'.

[John B.]

On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 17:52:44 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 2/3/2023 4:53 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 13:43:12 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
>>
>> One assumes that as this is the "Cosmic Ultimate" wheel there will
>> never be a requirement for any further development in bicycle wheels
>> required :-?
>>
>
>Hmmm. As an amateur observer I'd say the Cosmic Ultimate
>will be followed by the Cosmic Ultimate Pro, then the Cosmic
>Ultimate Tour de France and so on ad infinitum. Mavic has
>used 'Cosmic' in various forms for 30 years already.
>
>Which is better than just calling every redesign since 1960
>'Record'.

Given that some 73.6% (2017-2018) of the U.S. population 20 years or
older are overweight, including obesity, rather then expensive plastic
wheels, why not lose weight? Both cheaper then a new set of wheels AND
as well, far more healthy :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

You're making Mr Krygowski's argument that the effect
(weight, aero, rolling resistance) is real but not
significant except at the margins and since most riders are
average (and half below average!) nothing really matters.

I'm of the 'ride what you like' school of thought. For any
reason or for no reason at all.

[John B.]

Well, I do suggest that total weight that one has to move up a hill,
for example, is important. Try, as a test, walking up a fairly steep
hill. then load, say 50 kg in a back pack and walk up the same hill
again :-)

But I certainly do agree with the "ride what you brung" philosophy.
Way back when, I rode a single speed, good strong steel bike with
double top tube and coaster brake, and was quite happy with it.
https://tinyurl.com/2za83ja7
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:45:27 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>
>
> You're making Mr Krygowski's argument that the effect
> (weight, aero, rolling resistance) is real but not
> significant except at the margins and since most riders are
> average (and half below average!) nothing really matters.

I would agree with the caveat that 'nothing' is a bit hyperbolic and that

> I'm of the 'ride what you like' school of thought. For any
> reason or for no reason at all.

is sufficient to nullify 'nothing'.

[Catrike Rider]

+1

...and yet I do not understand the number of healthy looking people I
see riding motored bikes. I saw a motored trike the other day. Why
not just stay in bed?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 3:40:48 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/3/2023 2:31 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
> >>>
> >> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping. If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.
> >
> > ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350 dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.
> >
> > Lou
> >
>
> https://cycling.today/cyclist-crashes-on-straight-road-after-carbon-wheel-rim-failure/

no mention of the rim manufacturer, and an interesting tangent : "Henderson’s helmet had broken after hitting the road and he suspects he would have died but for the protection offered by his helmet."

>
> https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/deep-carbon-fiber-aero-wheels.464568/page-2

lol....thanks for this one Andrew. I particularly liked https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/deep-carbon-fiber-aero-wheels.464568/post-3844513 which has a note at the end "Moderator Note : edited for abusive content." Of course there's the obligatory kunich misinformation that somehow talcum powder is helpful for mounting tires - https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/talcum.html

>
> http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/cheap-chinese-carbon-rim-fail-831109-2.html

This one blurred the line between competent builds and quality components

>
> https://www.facebook.com/Mtbrcom/photos/a.280636258535.146346.196811798535/10152465939073536/?type=1

It's important to note here that "Last week, the rear wheel cracked as he used a plastic tire lever lightly to get a tire on that wouldn't mount otherwise. "

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

The Cannondale Cyclocross team used to be based a few towns over from me in Newbury. Every late winter they would have a used parts sale from that season. One year I got a set of Zipp Firecrest 303 tubular rim brake wheels with Tufo Challangers for $500. The tires still had the mold 'nibs' and there was no discernable wear on the brake track. The pit manager said they were pit wheels and he wasn't sure there were ever ridden. They were ditching all their rim brake wheels and frames since Cdale was providing them with all new disk brake frames and wheels. I think that was around 2017, and I've been racing CX on them ever since. They are showing normal wear one would expect from off-road use, with no signs of delamination or spoke-hole stress. I've only had to perform a minor true once on the rear wheel.

I also have a set of Novatec 80 mm road wheels for about ten years now. IIRC I paid $800 for the set. I've used them for commuting and training rather extensively. The biggest complaint is the balance. I could actually feel them surge at speeds over 30. I used the golf tape trick to solve that. Since I don't race them I'm not that concerned with the few extra ounces.OIther than that, the brake track seems to be wearing just fine, with no visible distortions around the spokes.

[sms]

On 2/3/2023 5:45 PM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> You're making Mr Krygowski's argument that the effect (weight, aero,
> rolling resistance) is real but not significant except at the margins
> and since most riders are average (and half below average!) nothing
> really matters.

It would be really bad news for Trek, Specialized, etc., if too many
riders subscribed to this philosophy!

OTOH, I see the same sort of "only a small percentage of users _need_
xyz feature" for other product categories and the reality is that a lot
of those xyz features actually are quite useful, including disc brakes
on bicycles, but you'll have someone that doesn't have xyz feature
getting upset that others do. On smart phones, every time someone points
out an Android feature that is not available on iPhones, the iPhone
fanbois go crazy, insisting that "almost no one wants that feature."

I'd agree that carbon wheels are pretty ridiculous for most recreational
riders, and all commuters, but there are those weight weenies that are
willing to forsake durability in favor of saving a few grams and they
have enough money to replace what breaks prematurely.

The sale of those high-end bicycles and components helps to keep the
prices of mass market bicycles and components down.

[sms]

On 2/3/2023 4:50 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Given that some 73.6% (2017-2018) of the U.S. population 20 years or
> older are overweight, including obesity, rather then expensive plastic
> wheels, why not lose weight? Both cheaper then a new set of wheels AND
> as well, far more healthy :-)

No need for carbon-fiber anything with that logic. When I do see
"serious cyclist" groups of riders out and about, there are rarely
overweight riders, and rarely a non-carbon bicycle, though carbon wheels
are not that common.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/3/2023 9:46 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Feb 2023 19:45:18 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> You're making Mr Krygowski's argument that the effect
>> (weight, aero, rolling resistance) is real but not
>> significant except at the margins and since most riders are
>> average (and half below average!) nothing really matters.
>>
>> I'm of the 'ride what you like' school of thought. For any
>> reason or for no reason at all.
>
> Well, I do suggest that total weight that one has to move up a hill,
> for example, is important. Try, as a test, walking up a fairly steep
> hill. then load, say 50 kg in a back pack and walk up the same hill
> again :-)

I'd say large differences in total weight to move up a hill can
certainly be perceptible. But "important?" That depends on context. For
a race, it can be important. For most riding, adding even ten pounds
means nothing more important than downshifting a gear or two.

Back when I was bike commuting, I sometimes rode home with an empty
briefcase; or I sometimes rode home with a pile of lab reports to grade,
plus some textbooks. I could feel the difference, but I made it home
either way, and my travel time was never very different.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal
particularly if wet, and this being london…

While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for
like!

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
> braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal
> particularly if wet, and this being london…
>
> While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
> bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for
> like!

Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?

Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists elsewhere?

Let's keep in mind we have at least one person posting here who loves
riding his fixie. Somehow he's survived!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I think there is a problem with the implied definition of "serious
cyclist." That seems to be a near synonym for MAMIL, or for the "fast
recreational cyclist," the target market for America's _Bicyclng_
magazine. Those cyclists are the ones who rush to buy whatever gizmo
showed up in the last Tour de France, and hope it will help their sprint
to the next telephone pole.

At my peak fitness I did a fair amount of riding with people like that,
although I was on much more prosaic equipment. We had fun, and they
certainly were avid cyclists - at least, until they moved on to some
other activity (nowadays, pickleball). But I don't think they were more
"serious" than a person using a bike to get to work or to the store, or
the person touring by bicycle.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
>> braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal
>> particularly if wet, and this being london…
>>
>> While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
>> bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for
>> like!
>
> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?

Probably not, if you brake within the limits of the technology, but if you
think of the type of personality that would work in the city ie
banker/lawyer who tend to a type ie competitive ie the desire to be 1st
even to the stop line even though your on carbon rims, and almost certainly
not aware of how late a MTB can leave braking, most had the sense not to
repeat it at the next light!

>
> Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists elsewhere?
>
> Let's keep in mind we have at least one person posting here who loves
> riding his fixie. Somehow he's survived!
>

I’d not consider a fixie dangerous I had one for a while, though fun I
realised I liked being able to go downhill and use my body weight for
cornering and so on, from my MTB background so SS made more sense, for
myself at least.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 2/4/2023 11:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me
>> hearing the panic
>> braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon
>> squeal

>> particularly if wet, and this being london…
>>
>> While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can
>> still out brake road
>> bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are

>> just as good like for
>> like!
>
> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in
> London?
>
> Come to think of it, is it really that common among
> bicyclists elsewhere?
>
> Let's keep in mind we have at least one person posting here
> who loves riding his fixie. Somehow he's survived!
>

Mine has a Swiss Weinmann front caliper with plain Fibrax UK
brake pads. No braking noise.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 09:07:52 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

I've seen lots of head down, butts up bicyclists and some of them are,
IMO, overweight. Also, since I see some of the same "overweight"
riders failrly often, they're probably out there more often as me, and
I consider myself a "serious" cyclist. As for what their bikes are
made of, I don't pay enough attention to them to notice.

[Lou Holtman]

An ‘overweight’ rider can be a serious cyclist. Seriousness is not determined by weight or Franks opinion.

Lou

[Catrike Rider]

+1

subjective evaluation....

[Tom Kunich]

I was looking at some carbon wheels made by a supposedly major manufacturer and they were the same wheels. So, you're welcome to pay $3,000+ to save 5 ounces. But if you have the idea that all carbon fiber wheels aren't made in exactly the same manner and they will not ALL delaminate under high pressure when trying to get the tubeless tires to push up onto the "step" to seal you simply haven't had any experience with this.

[Lou Holtman]

Nonsense.

Lou, what a race (world championships CX)…

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, iun the first place that is no comparison. Cable disk brakes have been around a couple of decades now. All of their weaknesses and strengths were known. If you bought them blindly you have no one but yourself to blame.

But isn't this a discussion that has run on virtually every discussion group about paying 10 times as much money for a product that is made in the same factory simply because it has a brand name on it? My wheels look suspiciously and weight the same as the Campagnolo Bullets. Campy is known to have had many products made in China for cheap and then selling them at staggering prices like they did the Bullet wheels.

Would it make you feel better to buy these wheels from Campy of directly from China for a tenth the price? Shimano has their entire lower line below 105 made in China. I bought a set of Chinese LTWoo levers that have a Campy-like actuation that is similar to Campy but the motion ratio of the Shimano which is better. Shifts are more positive. Referring to this a junk because it doesn't damage you bank account is pretty silly. And putting it in the same category as cable actuated disks is not comparable.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:22:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >
> > Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
> > braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal
> > particularly if wet, and this being london…
> >
> > While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
> > bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for
> > like!
> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?
>
> Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists elsewhere?

I interpreted Rogers statement "training days" to mean quasi competitive group rides. In my experience panic braking amoung 'weekend warriors' is common.

> Let's keep in mind we have at least one person posting here who loves
> riding his fixie. Somehow he's survived!

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I do love my fixed gear. However, I always ride with a front and rear brake. In a panic stop I want to make sure my panic-stop reflexes do something I'm way more familiar with, which is grabbing handfuls of brakes.

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

+1

>
> Lou, what a race (world championships CX)…

Yes, Wout fucked up. He should have drilled it from the top of the stairs to take the quick snap away from VDP. Not saying he would have won, but they came out of the last corner really slow which played into VDPs sprint, which he had been showing off the whole race.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:55:31 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Muzi
> >>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping.
> >> If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to
> >> seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the
> >> reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.
> >
> > ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350
> > dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets
> > don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one
> > spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.
> >

> > Lou
> >
> Buy cheap buy twice comes to mind!
>
> To a extent I did this with my Gravel bike in that it came with cable disks
> which never worked well, or occasionally at all!

What brakes came on the bike?

I'm running Avid BB7s on my hard tail and Sram G2s on my FS. I can't complain about the Avids. The rear Avid definitely has a slightly 'mushier' feel than the rear G2, but not enough that it affects the performance all that much. The difference in the front brakes is imperceptible unless you're standing still with the bikes doing a comparison.

[Tom Kunich]

That is my opinion of bikes as well. Would you call me a serious cyclist since I've managed to eek out 200+ miles this year between rain storms? Today is another rain day and I will assemble my Fondriest X Strata The frameset may be slightly heavier than the better carbon frames but you would have a hard time telling the difference without a scale. The other day while trying to throw a leg over my Tommasini Fire, I apparently kicked the saddle and fell down. This put a slight dent in the top tube. What would it have done to a carbon fiber frame?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/5/2023 9:15 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>
> An ‘overweight’ rider can be a serious cyclist. Seriousness is not determined by weight or Franks opinion.

Nor by Lou's opinion, to be fair.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

In an interview afterwards On Belgium television Wout admitted he made a mistake not starting the sprint as soon as they came on the finish straight. He was surprised Mathieu didn’t attack on the barriers and he was in front. He also said Mathieu was the stronger rider during the whole race. Boy he could have fooled me. It was a nice weekend.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

That came out a little wrong - I have seen exactly the same wheels that I bought for $400 being sold for $2,000 by a major manufacturer. The very lightest wheels might be made in small companies but it is harder than hell to make carbon wheels without the proper tooling and most larger companies cannot afford it so I don't see how smaller groups can. Now, perhaps a smaller company can make wooden molds and use a vacuum press method to get proper compaction but the wheels coming out of an operation like this would probably be unsafe at any speed and extremely expensive because they would be made in halves. China uses full heated molds with a balloon liner and vacuum technology. They've been in this game for a long time and made wheels for all of the high price brands.

So I'm sure that there could be lighter wheels made - but at what expense? The UCI weight limit is the same regardless of wheel weight.

[AMuzi]

On 2/5/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:31:10 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
>>>>

>>> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping. If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.

>> ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350 dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.

>
> I was looking at some carbon wheels made by a supposedly major manufacturer and they were the same wheels. So, you're welcome to pay $3,000+ to save 5 ounces. But if you have the idea that all carbon fiber wheels aren't made in exactly the same manner and they will not ALL delaminate under high pressure when trying to get the tubeless tires to push up onto the "step" to seal you simply haven't had any experience with this.
>

My experience is very different from yours. Campagnolo and
Mavic carbon rims seat tubeless tires snappily and without
drama.
Which cannot be said of chinese crap.

[AMuzi]

On 2/5/2023 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 7:20:59 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 4:15:14 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:31:10 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
>>>>>>

>>>>> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping. If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.

>>>> ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350 dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.

>>> I was looking at some carbon wheels made by a supposedly major manufacturer and they were the same wheels. So, you're welcome to pay $3,000+ to save 5 ounces. But if you have the idea that all carbon fiber wheels aren't made in exactly the same manner and they will not ALL delaminate under high pressure when trying to get the tubeless tires to push up onto the "step" to seal you simply haven't had any experience with this.
>> Nonsense.
>>

>> Lou, what a race (world championships CX)…

>
> That came out a little wrong - I have seen exactly the same wheels that I bought for $400 being sold for $2,000 by a major manufacturer. The very lightest wheels might be made in small companies but it is harder than hell to make carbon wheels without the proper tooling and most larger companies cannot afford it so I don't see how smaller groups can. Now, perhaps a smaller company can make wooden molds and use a vacuum press method to get proper compaction but the wheels coming out of an operation like this would probably be unsafe at any speed and extremely expensive because they would be made in halves. China uses full heated molds with a balloon liner and vacuum technology. They've been in this game for a long time and made wheels for all of the high price brands.
>
> So I'm sure that there could be lighter wheels made - but at what expense? The UCI weight limit is the same regardless of wheel weight.
>

"Looks similar from across the street" is not the same as
"Exactly the same wheels".

[Tom Kunich]

Andrew, I had ten sets of Chinese wheels and they all seated well and sealed pretty good without any sealant in them. I had another pair that didn't. How many Campy wheels sets have you tried? But I turned away from tubeless wheels for many reasons one of which was this.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 12:12:58 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/5/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 12:31:10 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
> >>>>
> >>> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping. If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.
> >> ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350 dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.
> >
> > I was looking at some carbon wheels made by a supposedly major manufacturer and they were the same wheels. So, you're welcome to pay $3,000+ to save 5 ounces. But if you have the idea that all carbon fiber wheels aren't made in exactly the same manner and they will not ALL delaminate under high pressure when trying to get the tubeless tires to push up onto the "step" to seal you simply haven't had any experience with this.
> >
> My experience is very different from yours.

I think that can be said for everyone on this forum - our collective experience is very different from tommy's

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Probably nothing

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

It did seem to me that VDP had the edge. He clearly had more snap, the problem was making it stick.

[Roger Merriman]

Would of been fairly basic Tektro M510 which are fairly simple single
piston with adjustable piston you adjusted as pads wore down. Unfortunately
mud and grit got into this and trashed the calliper.

On road had a reasonable if weak power and modulation, after had few die, I
upgraded to dual piston from the single piston. Was a bit better in terms
of power modulation though still a long way from Hydraulic. Didn’t keep it
long enough for durability to be a issue, plus being summer or dry ish.

As with all of these things on road and around town absolutely fine, it’s
only when you pushed that you found the limits.

the upgrade to Tiagra with its finned pads has been all I’ve hoped for and
more, plenty of power, and holds on longer ie terms of heat better than my
MTB which I upgraded to finned as well, and the old MTB got the MTB brakes
which was fair upgrade in of its self as it had fairly cheap Tektro hydro
that where slightly underpowered and bit of faff, where as the new old
brakes are very easy to live with, the extra power is neither here or there
for commuting.

>>
>> Though I have enjoyed the upgrade process really! I suspect I’d paid more
>> doing it this way though!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman

[Eric Pozharski]

with <trm490$2261m$2...@dont-email.me> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

>> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the
>> panic braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon
>> squeal particularly if wet, and this being london…
>> While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out
>> brake road bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just
>> as good like for like!
> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?
> Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists
> elsewhere?

No, it's not. On my Horse (that's a nick-name, of course; 700Cx52, 21
speed) I've made 7300km (no leisure, maybe inflated, all kind of
terrains). I remember about three times when I had to block front wheel
(AIUI it is as close to panic breaking as possible). Granted, at low
speeds (<15km/h) it's prety safe -- I've balanced on front wheel (for a
moment, also toeclips), then drop back on both, then out-maneuver those
pesky death-traps. (Sure, there were that lasting incident, that almost
blasted me to infinity, then I've come to some revelations).

On my Donkey (that's a nick-name again) I'm making +25..15km per week
51week per year (my record is 72km in one ride, 1/3 of it cross-country)
for five years now (should verify it). There is no "panic breaking" for
fixed, it's panic maneuvering instead. Did that too couple of times,
hopefully will do it again.

> Let's keep in mind we have at least one person posting here who loves
> riding his fixie. Somehow he's survived!

Make it two. However, 'love' is debatable.

--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom

[Roger Merriman]

funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:22:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
>>> braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal
>>> particularly if wet, and this being london…
>>>
>>> While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
>>> bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for
>>> like!
>> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?
>>
>> Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists elsewhere?
>
> I interpreted Rogers statement "training days" to mean quasi competitive
> group rides. In my experience panic braking amoung 'weekend warriors' is common.

Ah no that would me riding into central London to attend some
training/meeting or what not!

Tends to be down the embankment which certainly back then was a fast road
but fairly short distances between lights so competitive types ie folks
such as lawyers will race almost anything, hence getting single focus on
getting ahead.

not helped by the fact that I tend to pull away smarty as I don’t need to
clip in, and have a solid build from the MTB/Gravel riding so I will
probably have pulled away at the last set of lights, they will have started
to catch me as the next set arrives, and they get focus by this and
slightly misjudge braking distance, they generally only do it once!

>
>> Let's keep in mind we have at least one person posting here who loves
>> riding his fixie. Somehow he's survived!
>
> I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I do love my fixed gear.
> However, I always ride with a front and rear brake. In a panic stop I
> want to make sure my panic-stop reflexes do something I'm way more
> familiar with, which is grabbing handfuls of brakes.
>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

I "panic braked" when a deer jumped out of the bushes ahead of me. I
"panic braked" when the dark spot on the trail ahead turned out to be
a rattlesnake sunning itself. I "panic braked" when a guy heard my "on
your left" warning and turned his bike to the left. Those were all
within the last year, but those types of situations were not unique to
the last year. I'd never ride without good brakes.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 1:33:10 PM UTC-5, Eric Pozharski wrote:
> There is no "panic breaking" for
> fixed, it's panic maneuvering instead. Did that too couple of times,
> hopefully will do it again.

I was impressed to see a fixie rider in Washington DC do a quick stop by
hopping his back wheel up and sideways, then skidding to a stop. It
couldn't have been as fast a stop as using actual brakes, and it left a lot
of his tire tread on the pavement, but it was very acrobatic.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why I had 10 sets of these wheels when I was still riding very hard and the only failures I had were from overinflating one tubeless pair?
And that pair were because of extremely tight tires and not so much the rims. Pretending that these wheels were not made in the same factory by the same people using the same materials is not hacking it. I didn't see or hear of failures of the Chinese built Colnagos and the C40's were dangerous. Look bragged that their frames were made in China. I didn't see failures with the Looks until they started making them weigh in at a half kilo.

They were purposely told not to photograph the broken bikes in the Tour though once in awhile it did happen. Are you saying that the people who are trusted to make the Colnago racing V4R's can't build wheels?

Honestly, I don't know where you're coming from. The Chinese INVENTED the proper tooling to build carbon wheels.

I picked up flats on tubeless tires and spent an hour on the side of the road trying to get a tire on the rim - both carbon and aluminum. That's why I returned to clinchers. On two occasions ET had to call home.

[Tom Kunich]

Someone is making cable actuated hydraulic brakes. I have a set of them on my Cannondale. They actuate both sides of the brake pads equally so they don't deform the disk. But like all of the disk brakes I've used and all of the one's I remember were hydraulics (one set were SRAMS and were VERY hard to bleed) they are too violent and too abrupt. Yes you can get used to them but they are a danger in an unforeseen emergency stop. And that point was made very well in that pileup in a pro race a week or so ago. On flat ground in an emergency stop (crash in the pack WAY ahead) the racer was thrown over the bars.

[Roger Merriman]

Yup they followed cable disks on road not used them but friends have used
to have them. I did toy with the them vs full update ie most of groupset.
But felt they where too close to cable disks in performance.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I have very seldom had panic breaking and all but on time was a car's fault. On the one occasion it was mine. I was descending on a CX bike down a 20% or so grade and I had pulled over off of the hard path to allow a large group of MTBer' the use of the path for climbing. I was in very deep dust and just as I was about to pull back onto the path I hit a hidden rock and accidently pulled on the brake levers. UP and OVER. But because the descent was so steep I had time to turn around and land without any damage until the bike landed on me and cut a finger.

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, you also have the advantage of the MTB being much heavier and with a longer wheelbase. So in London traffic you would probably slide instead of lifting the rear wheel.

[Roger Merriman]

To be honest can’t recall a panic brake for years, my commute is relatively
benign with parks and cycleways.

And the MTB gravel stuff is not panic stuff particularly since have a new
light for dark forest rides.

Ie brake hard yes but not in panic fistfuls!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

It’s heavier due to being commute set up, ie panniers and what not plus a
fairly upright position, so to lift the rear wheel takes serious amount of
force, at worse you the rear will start to scrabble for grip but this is
only generally on gravelly paths, on tarmac it’s unlikely.

On tarmac there is useful amount of rear grip braking wise so I’ll brake
one handed/signal even quite rapidly, which I’d not with the Gravel bike as
it has more forward position and slightly less grip.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 20:24:24 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman

<ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 18:58:12 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:22:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
>>>>>> braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal

>>>>>> particularly if wet, and this being london?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While my old MTB with it?s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
>>>>>> bikes, it?s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for

>>>>>> like!
>>>>> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?
>>>>>
>>>>> Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists elsewhere?
>>>>
>>>> I interpreted Rogers statement "training days" to mean quasi competitive
>>>> group rides. In my experience panic braking amoung 'weekend warriors' is common.
>>>
>>> Ah no that would me riding into central London to attend some
>>> training/meeting or what not!
>>>
>>> Tends to be down the embankment which certainly back then was a fast road
>>> but fairly short distances between lights so competitive types ie folks
>>> such as lawyers will race almost anything, hence getting single focus on
>>> getting ahead.
>>>

>>> not helped by the fact that I tend to pull away smarty as I don?t need to

Well, I guess it depends on the definition of "panic stop." I guess I
define it as when I squeeze the lever all the way to the bar. Like I
said before, I set the brakes so they won't lock up the wheels until
I'm almost stopped.

[AMuzi]

On 2/5/2023 2:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 10:17:20 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 4:55:31 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 8:52:51 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, February 3, 2023 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/news/mavic-cosmic-ultimate-45-disc/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>> My Chinese wheels weigh 1445 grams and cost me $353 with free shipping.
>>>>>> If you over inflate carbon wheels in an attempt to get tubeless tires to
>>>>>> seal, they will delaminate no matter who makes them. This is one of the
>>>>>> reasons I returned to clincher wheels and tires.
>>>>>

>>>>> ‘No matter who makes them’? Yeah pro riders are crazy not to ride 350

>>>>> dollar noname Chinese wheels. From personal experience my CF wheelsets

>>>>> don’t delaminate for 6 years now, never needed truing and never broke one

>>>>> spoke. Oh, btw they are not from alibaba. Ymmv, and probably is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>> Buy cheap buy twice comes to mind!
>>>>
>>>> To a extent I did this with my Gravel bike in that it came with cable disks
>>>> which never worked well, or occasionally at all!
>>>
>>> What brakes came on the bike?
>>>
>>> I'm running Avid BB7s on my hard tail and Sram G2s on my FS. I can't
>>> complain about the Avids. The rear Avid definitely has a slightly
>>> 'mushier' feel than the rear G2, but not enough that it affects the
>>> performance all that much. The difference in the front brakes is
>>> imperceptible unless you're standing still with the bikes doing a comparison.
>>>
>> Would of been fairly basic Tektro M510 which are fairly simple single
>> piston with adjustable piston you adjusted as pads wore down. Unfortunately
>> mud and grit got into this and trashed the calliper.
>>
>> On road had a reasonable if weak power and modulation, after had few die, I
>> upgraded to dual piston from the single piston. Was a bit better in terms

>> of power modulation though still a long way from Hydraulic. Didn’t keep it

>> long enough for durability to be a issue, plus being summer or dry ish.
>>

>> As with all of these things on road and around town absolutely fine, it’s

>> only when you pushed that you found the limits.
>>

>> the upgrade to Tiagra with its finned pads has been all I’ve hoped for and

>> more, plenty of power, and holds on longer ie terms of heat better than my
>> MTB which I upgraded to finned as well, and the old MTB got the MTB brakes
>> which was fair upgrade in of its self as it had fairly cheap Tektro hydro
>> that where slightly underpowered and bit of faff, where as the new old
>> brakes are very easy to live with, the extra power is neither here or there
>> for commuting.
>>>>

>>>> Though I have enjoyed the upgrade process really! I suspect I’d paid more

>>>> doing it this way though!
>
> Someone is making cable actuated hydraulic brakes. I have a set of them on my Cannondale. They actuate both sides of the brake pads equally so they don't deform the disk. But like all of the disk brakes I've used and all of the one's I remember were hydraulics (one set were SRAMS and were VERY hard to bleed) they are too violent and too abrupt. Yes you can get used to them but they are a danger in an unforeseen emergency stop. And that point was made very well in that pileup in a pro race a week or so ago. On flat ground in an emergency stop (crash in the pack WAY ahead) the racer was thrown over the bars.
>

Yokozuna. Nice product:

https://www.roadbikerider.com/yokozuna-ultimo-disc-brakes/

https://www.cxmagazine.com/yokozuna-motoko-cable-pull-hydraulic-disc-brake-road-cyclocross-gravel-caliper

[Tom Kunich]

Looks good but disk brakes put a FAR higher strain on the forks and the rear axles which is why they went to 12 or 16 mm axles. This produced very large loads on the carbon fiber forks.

Of course a new fork is PROBABLY safe, but not a whole lot of use can make them unsafe.

[Roger Merriman]

Bit like hydraulic rim brakes, once hydraulic proper reached road these
reduced to niche products.

Clever though they are.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

I’d generally mean Ii needed to do a emergency stop or something close to
it, rather than simply at end of some downhill trail it needs some heavy
braking as it runs into a road say.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sun, 05 Feb 2023 07:39:40 -0500, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 09:07:52 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 2/3/2023 4:50 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> Given that some 73.6% (2017-2018) of the U.S. population 20 years or
>>> older are overweight, including obesity, rather then expensive plastic
>>> wheels, why not lose weight? Both cheaper then a new set of wheels AND
>>> as well, far more healthy :-)
>>
>>No need for carbon-fiber anything with that logic. When I do see
>>"serious cyclist" groups of riders out and about, there are rarely
>>overweight riders, and rarely a non-carbon bicycle, though carbon wheels
>>are not that common.
>
>I've seen lots of head down, butts up bicyclists and some of them are,
>IMO, overweight. Also, since I see some of the same "overweight"
>riders failrly often, they're probably out there more often as me, and
>I consider myself a "serious" cyclist. As for what their bikes are
>made of, I don't pay enough attention to them to notice.

The point was that as some 74% of USians are overweight, or obese.
that losing weight may well be a cheaper and possibly more healthy
solution to gross weight of bike and rider then buying an expensive
new plastic bicycle.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 22:03:22 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman

>>> To be honest can?t recall a panic brake for years, my commute is relatively

>>> benign with parks and cycleways.
>>>
>>> And the MTB gravel stuff is not panic stuff particularly since have a new
>>> light for dark forest rides.
>>>
>>> Ie brake hard yes but not in panic fistfuls!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Well, I guess it depends on the definition of "panic stop." I guess I
>> define it as when I squeeze the lever all the way to the bar. Like I
>> said before, I set the brakes so they won't lock up the wheels until
>> I'm almost stopped.
>>
>I’d generally mean Ii needed to do a emergency stop or something close to
>it, rather than simply at end of some downhill trail it needs some heavy
>braking as it runs into a road say.
>
>Roger Merriman

I've only done that a handful of times over 70+ years of riding. I
remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
close call, that. I really hate riding in the suburbs.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 05:47:32 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

No argument... but, unlike some people who post here, I have no
inclination to tell anybody else what to do or try to belittle them
for not doing it like I do.

[AMuzi]

That's one viewpoint.

Then again somebody has to support the industry's tchotchkes
in enough volume to keep prices low for the rest of us:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/tifosi.jpg

[Roger Merriman]

Indeed, mostly not always a bit of thinking ahead does wonders, on my
commute I will pass dogs lead or not, deer in rut or not.

Small children, un attentive bus drivers and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/5/2023 6:19 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 22:03:22 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I guess it depends on the definition of "panic stop." I guess I
>>> define it as when I squeeze the lever all the way to the bar.

Brake levers should never reach the handlebar if the brake system is
properly set up.

>> I’d generally mean Ii needed to do a emergency stop or something close to
>> it, rather than simply at end of some downhill trail it needs some heavy
>> braking as it runs into a road say.
>>
>

> I've only done that a handful of times over 70+ years of riding.

As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.

> I remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
> me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
> was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
> close call, that.

That's an absolutely classic right hook, an incident whose chances
increase with any segregated bike facility that puts a straight-ahead
cyclist to the right of a motorist that may turn right.

And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/

But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.

It takes competence to ride on actual roads.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Well, given that the figures I quoted seem to be from several years
ago it is likely that nature, taking it's course, means that there
will be sufficient purchases to keep prices down. :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 05 Feb 2023 18:49:01 -0500, Catrike Rider

But I wasn't telling anyone anything. I was commenting on the fallacy
of buying an expensive light weight bicycle to go faster when losing
weight would be both cheaper and more healthy :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 20:19:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/5/2023 6:19 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 22:03:22 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I guess it depends on the definition of "panic stop." I guess I
>>>> define it as when I squeeze the lever all the way to the bar.
>
>Brake levers should never reach the handlebar if the brake system is
>properly set up.

Nonsense.... I set them that way on purpose...

>>> I’d generally mean Ii needed to do a emergency stop or something close to
>>> it, rather than simply at end of some downhill trail it needs some heavy
>>> braking as it runs into a road say.
>>>
>>
>> I've only done that a handful of times over 70+ years of riding.
>
>As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
>very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
>stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
>learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.

Sometimes things jump out at you.. Like a deer.

>> I remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
>> me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
>> was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
>> close call, that.
>
>That's an absolutely classic right hook, an incident whose chances
>increase with any segregated bike facility that puts a straight-ahead
>cyclist to the right of a motorist that may turn right.

Indeed, that's why I hate that kind of "segregated bike facility," and
don't ride them any more. Problem solved.

>And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
>bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
>of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
>https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/

Blah, blah, blah

>But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
>that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
>hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
>special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.

Actually, I'll decide for myself as to when, where, and how I ride and
continue to mock narcissistic fools who falsely believe they're
qualified to instruct more experienced and more knowledgeable riders
like myself.

>It takes competence to ride on actual roads.

It takes idiocy to ride on roads when one can opt for bike trails away
from vehicle traffic.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 09:20:04 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

I know. I wasn't referring to you. I should have worded that better.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Except the he's french, and in france....https://www.bikehugger.com/posts/internet-famous-fat-guy-spande/

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

It takes idiocy to call someone an idiot when experience demonstrates riding on a bike trail is actually less safe than riding with traffic,, idiot. It's called competence. That you're incompetent doesn't mean someone who choses to ride more efficiently and safely with traffic is an idiot, it means you're an arrogant narrowminded halfwit who's right at home in floriduh.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1547234/

A fun action adventure crime drama. Joseph Levitt (3rd Rock From The Sun) learned fixed gear stunts in traffic - for real, not like the faked stuff in Quicksilver.

[Catrike Rider]

<GRIN>

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 1:58:15 PM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> funkma...@hotmail.com <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 12:22:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 2/4/2023 12:15 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Got to admit on training days in the city, did amuse me hearing the panic
> >>> braking from the carbon race bikes, and the notable carbon squeal

> >>> particularly if wet, and this being london…
> >>>
> >>> While my old MTB with it’s much bigger grip levels can still out brake road
> >>> bikes, it’s not the gap it once was as road disks are just as good like for

> >>> like!
> >> Is panic breaking really that common among bicyclists in London?
> >>
> >> Come to think of it, is it really that common among bicyclists elsewhere?
> >
> > I interpreted Rogers statement "training days" to mean quasi competitive
> > group rides. In my experience panic braking amoung 'weekend warriors' is common.
> Ah no that would me riding into central London to attend some
> training/meeting or what not!

lol....Got it.

>
> Tends to be down the embankment which certainly back then was a fast road
> but fairly short distances between lights so competitive types ie folks
> such as lawyers will race almost anything, hence getting single focus on
> getting ahead.
>

> not helped by the fact that I tend to pull away smarty as I don’t need to

> clip in, and have a solid build from the MTB/Gravel riding so I will
> probably have pulled away at the last set of lights, they will have started
> to catch me as the next set arrives, and they get focus by this and
> slightly misjudge braking distance, they generally only do it once!

That's a bit less organized than what I was talking about, but I get the picture. Been there, done that.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 6:49:05 PM UTC-5, floriduh man wrote:
>
>
> unlike some people who post here, I have no
> inclination to tell anybody else what to do or try to belittle them
> for not doing it like I do.

But then On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 4:54:22 AM UTC-5, floriduh man wrote in https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/77R0z-Tw8fs/m/ieIvq2DqDQAJ:
> It takes idiocy to ride on roads when one can opt for bike trails away
> from vehicle traffic.

fucking hypocrite

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/5/2023 6:19 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 22:03:22 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, I guess it depends on the definition of "panic stop." I guess I
>>>> define it as when I squeeze the lever all the way to the bar.
>
> Brake levers should never reach the handlebar if the brake system is
> properly set up.
>
>>> I’d generally mean Ii needed to do a emergency stop or something close to
>>> it, rather than simply at end of some downhill trail it needs some heavy
>>> braking as it runs into a road say.
>>>
>>
>> I've only done that a handful of times over 70+ years of riding.
>
> As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
> very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
> stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
> learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.

I don’t think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking of emergency stops.

And yes they are notable by their rarity, even the example I used only
happened a few times.

>
>> I remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
>> me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
>> was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
>> close call, that.
>
> That's an absolutely classic right hook, an incident whose chances
> increase with any segregated bike facility that puts a straight-ahead
> cyclist to the right of a motorist that may turn right.

Those will generally be controlled with more modern bike lanes, be that
separate lights at junctions and so on. That’s not to say some old types
might still be made but well the ideas in general have moved on.

>
> And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
> bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
> of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
> https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
>
> But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
> that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
> hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
> special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.
>
> It takes competence to ride on actual roads.
>

I’d argue that should be safe for a child etc to ride and cross roads in
most places to be honest.

That I can ride the road is safely is such a low bar.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 11:35:31 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman

The situation I described above was not a classic right hook. I was on
a bike trail adjacent to, but not part of the highway. It was
separated from the highway by a five or six feet of grass, so taking
the lane was not an option. My mistake was not checking my mirror
immediately before venturing across the road. I've always used mirrors
and with recumbents, they are even more important. Luckily, my brakes
were sufficient to prevent an accident.

I consider those types of bike trails to be inherently dangerous.

>Those will generally be controlled with more modern bike lanes, be that
>separate lights at junctions and so on. That’s not to say some old types
>might still be made but well the ideas in general have moved on.
>>
>> And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
>> bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
>> of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
>> https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
>>
>> But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
>> that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
>> hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
>> special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.
>>
>> It takes competence to ride on actual roads.
>>
>I’d argue that should be safe for a child etc to ride and cross roads in
>most places to be honest.
>
>That I can ride the road is safely is such a low bar.
>
>Roger Merriman
>

Many of my current rides involve a little road riding, and I've done a
lot of road riding in my past. I've never had any bicycle accidents
with vehicles or other bicyclists. Venturing out onto the road
requires watching out for drivers making bad decisions. One reason I
prefer riding on dedicated bike trails nowdays is so I don't have to
be wary of such things.

[Catrike Rider]

<EYEROLL>

[Roger Merriman]

I have one junction on the old segregated cycleway has no crossing proper,
the road is light controlled, but pedestrian’s/bikes are not.

So I turn in to the side road and cross few feet in, so any turning traffic
can be seen give me more time, being old MTB rolling down/up kerbs isn’t a
issue.

>
> I consider those types of bike trails to be inherently dangerous.
>
>> Those will generally be controlled with more modern bike lanes, be that
>> separate lights at junctions and so on. That’s not to say some old types
>> might still be made but well the ideas in general have moved on.
>>>
>>> And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
>>> bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
>>> of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
>>> https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
>>>
>>> But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
>>> that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
>>> hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
>>> special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.
>>>
>>> It takes competence to ride on actual roads.
>>>
>> I’d argue that should be safe for a child etc to ride and cross roads in
>> most places to be honest.
>>
>> That I can ride the road is safely is such a low bar.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> Many of my current rides involve a little road riding, and I've done a
> lot of road riding in my past. I've never had any bicycle accidents
> with vehicles or other bicyclists. Venturing out onto the road
> requires watching out for drivers making bad decisions. One reason I
> prefer riding on dedicated bike trails nowdays is so I don't have to
> be wary of such things.
>

That is one of the reasons I use the route to commute I do, via a few parks
and this is linked to a off road cycleway via a segregated bike lane, which
is much less hassle than before as no cars drifting across.

None of the roads used are right hook probabilities really. As all are
moving along.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Correct. And I'll point out that Mr. Tricycle just accused every contributor to this discussion group of "idiocy."
We all ride roads, even though I presume we could all pack our bikes into our vehicles and drive to a bike trail,
if we were as fearful and ignorant as that tricycle rider. For that, he belittles us.

We have the minimal courage and competence to ride on roads. And to ride without keeping a handgun ready
to blast away on a moment's notice. We also have the competence to adjust brakes so the levers
don't bottom out on handlebars (Bike Repair 101).

And judging by posts, the rest of us actually have friends! And we are not so timid as to ignore or scorn people
who greet us!

The man's not very bright.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 6:35:34 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >

> > As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
> > very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
> > stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
> > learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.
> I don’t think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking of emergency stops.

Oh, we've definitely had those claims! Joerg said here many times that if not for his
excellent brakes he would have died or been severely injured many times.

> And yes they are notable by their rarity, even the example I used only
> happened a few times.

Agreed. If a person has frequent emergency stops, they are doing things very, very wrong.

> >
> >> I remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
> >> me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
> >> was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
> >> close call, that.
> >
> > That's an absolutely classic right hook, an incident whose chances
> > increase with any segregated bike facility that puts a straight-ahead
> > cyclist to the right of a motorist that may turn right.
> Those will generally be controlled with more modern bike lanes, be that
> separate lights at junctions and so on. That’s not to say some old types
> might still be made but well the ideas in general have moved on.

This may be a difference in British vs. American bike facility practice. I've seen many
hundreds of bike lanes in the U.S. but I've yet to see one over here that has separate traffic
light phases for bikes and cars. The most common is still a bike lane to the right, with
straight-ahead cyclists at risk because of right turning vehicles.

Bike lanes striped within the last several years are more likely to have the last 50 feet
or so of bike lane stripe be dashed, rather than solid. That's intended to convey that
cyclists may move left to lane center to avoid right hooks, and that motorists should,
when clear, merge into the bike lane and turn right from a position close to the curb.
But IME, almost nobody knows that or does that.

Try to imagine another situation where road design encourages turning across the path of
a vehicle going straight. Can you imagine freeway exit ramps designed that way?

> >
> > And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
> > bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
> > of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
> > https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
> >
> > But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
> > that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
> > hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
> > special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.
> >
> > It takes competence to ride on actual roads.
> >
> I’d argue that should be safe for a child etc to ride and cross roads in
> most places to be honest.

"Should be safe" should apply to children who have been taught proper riding techniques
for the roads upon which they ride. And kids should be guided onto only appropriate roads
for their level of competence. It will never be possible to turn wobbly, untrained 6-year-old
beginners loose on busy streets. That's true whether or not those streets have bike lane
markings or not. (Even Amsterdam trains its little kids in proper cycling.)

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 2/6/2023 5:35 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 2/5/2023 6:19 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023 22:03:22 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I guess it depends on the definition of "panic stop." I guess I
>>>>> define it as when I squeeze the lever all the way to the bar.
>>
>> Brake levers should never reach the handlebar if the brake system is
>> properly set up.
>>

>>>> I’d generally mean Ii needed to do a emergency stop or something close to

>>>> it, rather than simply at end of some downhill trail it needs some heavy
>>>> braking as it runs into a road say.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've only done that a handful of times over 70+ years of riding.
>>
>> As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
>> very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
>> stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
>> learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.
>

> I don’t think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking of emergency stops.

>
> And yes they are notable by their rarity, even the example I used only
> happened a few times.
>>
>>> I remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
>>> me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
>>> was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
>>> close call, that.
>>
>> That's an absolutely classic right hook, an incident whose chances
>> increase with any segregated bike facility that puts a straight-ahead
>> cyclist to the right of a motorist that may turn right.
>
> Those will generally be controlled with more modern bike lanes, be that

> separate lights at junctions and so on. That’s not to say some old types

> might still be made but well the ideas in general have moved on.
>>
>> And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
>> bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
>> of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
>> https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
>>
>> But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
>> that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
>> hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
>> special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.
>>
>> It takes competence to ride on actual roads.
>>

> I’d argue that should be safe for a child etc to ride and cross roads in

> most places to be honest.
>
> That I can ride the road is safely is such a low bar.
>
> Roger Merriman

"> I don't think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking
of emergency stops. "

You may not think that.
SOme people who experience streets with more homicidal bus
and auto drivers than rural paths with homicidal deer can
see that differently.

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 5:49:39 AM UTC-5, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 6:49:05 PM UTC-5, floriduh man wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> unlike some people who post here, I have no
>>> inclination to tell anybody else what to do or try to belittle them
>>> for not doing it like I do.
>> But then On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 4:54:22 AM UTC-5, floriduh man
>> wrote in https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/77R0z-Tw8fs/m/ieIvq2DqDQAJ:
>>> It takes idiocy to ride on roads when one can opt for bike trails away
>>> from vehicle traffic.
>> fucking hypocrite
>
> Correct. And I'll point out that Mr. Tricycle just accused every
> contributor to this discussion group of "idiocy."
> We all ride roads, even though I presume we could all pack our bikes into
> our vehicles and drive to a bike trail,
> if we were as fearful and ignorant as that tricycle rider. For that, he belittles us.

Maybe maybe not, I a) don’t keep track b) don’t have the memory for that
sort of thing, same in real life im faceblind and so on.

Ie I have to make a choice as to how much effort as for myself thinking
isn’t for free.

>
> We have the minimal courage and competence to ride on roads. And to ride
> without keeping a handgun ready
> to blast away on a moment's notice. We also have the competence to adjust
> brakes so the levers
> don't bottom out on handlebars (Bike Repair 101).
>
> And judging by posts, the rest of us actually have friends! And we are
> not so timid as to ignore or scorn people
> who greet us!
>
> The man's not very bright.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Realistically returning the bad faith, doesn’t seem to work that well to be
honest.

For a number of reasons if a post is reasonable ie not a conspiracy theory
etc, and vaguely into tech then I’ll reply assuming im interested and so
on.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

<GRIN> Frank and Jimmy Junior are so much fun....

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 09:01:52 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 6:35:34 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
>> > very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
>> > stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
>> > learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.
>> I don’t think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking of emergency stops.
>
>Oh, we've definitely had those claims! Joerg said here many times that if not for his
>excellent brakes he would have died or been severely injured many times.
>
>> And yes they are notable by their rarity, even the example I used only
>> happened a few times.
>
>Agreed. If a person has frequent emergency stops, they are doing things very, very wrong.

Or maybe they just ride where things are not so predictable.

[Roger Meriman]

I do live in london, and while my commute is mostly relatively benign not
all roads are the same, plus Surrey lanes have plenty of deer, while it’s
generally sheep in wales!

My old MTB in terms of emergency stops and assuming it’s not a wet day and
so on which would hamper rim brakes and so on.

It’s that it has enough weight at the rear plus fat tyres that it can brake
heavily even from a less than ideal body position. As the weight is over
the rear so that lifting the rear is really not a practical probability,
under heavy braking on parkland gravel the rear might scrabble but that’s
about it.

One of the london hire (trade bikes) did some videos few years back showing
how short the braking distances where even loaded up as the weight kept the
rear well weighted.

Not saying that the old MTB can outperform either of my other bikes ie
Gravel/MTB on high speed/steep braking where I’m prepared and committed,
both will comfortably out brake the old girl!

But for emergency stuff ironically her weight and riding position makes it
fuss free.

Roger Merrriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/6/2023 2:25 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> "> I don't think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking of emergency
> stops. "
>
> You may not think that.
> SOme people who experience streets with more homicidal bus and auto
> drivers than rural paths with homicidal deer can see that differently.

I wonder how many people reading here have had an actual crash because
their brakes provided insufficient deceleration.

Note, going over the bars would not qualify. That's potentially a sign
of too much deceleration, and/or bad technique. And brake levers
squeezed to the bars would probably not qualify. That's usually
mechanical incompetence.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

I was not advocating riders run out and buy more responsive
braking systems. I intended to point out that riders analyze
situational risk differently and choose equipment on their
own personal analyses by their own criteria.

[Catrike Rider]

Not going over the bars, or in my case not lifting the back wheel and
slamming my face into the chain rings, is exactly why I delibrately
set the brakes so that doesn't happen. My BB7s are perfectly capable
of dead stopping both 20 inch wheels at 15 and probably even 20 MPH.
As anyone with more engineering knowledge than Krygowski could
understand, the smaller wheel(s) require less restraint from the disk
brakes to stop them.

[Roger Meriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, February 6, 2023 at 6:35:34 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> As I've been saying, for competent riders, panic braking should be a
>>> very, very rare occurrence. The fixation with perfect brakes for panic
>>> stops is more "Danger! Danger!" nonsense. It's far more sensible to
>>> learn to anticipate problems so there is no panic.
>> I don’t think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking of emergency stops.
>
> Oh, we've definitely had those claims! Joerg said here many times that if not for his
> excellent brakes he would have died or been severely injured many times.

That seems unlikely, I like disks for a number of reasons though my old
commute bike due to its weight and where it is would probably behave
broadly similarly even with rims, in that it’s nr impossible to lift the
rear wheel and equally lock the rear even.

>
>> And yes they are notable by their rarity, even the example I used only
>> happened a few times.
>
> Agreed. If a person has frequent emergency stops, they are doing things very, very wrong.
>
>
>>>
>>>> I remember once several years ago when I had a driver come from behind
>>>> me and make a right turn as I was starting across an intersection. I
>>>> was on a bike trail running along and very close to the highway. Very
>>>> close call, that.
>>>
>>> That's an absolutely classic right hook, an incident whose chances
>>> increase with any segregated bike facility that puts a straight-ahead
>>> cyclist to the right of a motorist that may turn right.
>> Those will generally be controlled with more modern bike lanes, be that
>> separate lights at junctions and so on. That’s not to say some old types
>> might still be made but well the ideas in general have moved on.
>
> This may be a difference in British vs. American bike facility practice. I've seen many
> hundreds of bike lanes in the U.S. but I've yet to see one over here that
> has separate traffic
> light phases for bikes and cars. The most common is still a bike lane to the right, with
> straight-ahead cyclists at risk because of right turning vehicles.

More likely this being London than anything else probably fairer to compare
with say New York or so on.

>
> Bike lanes striped within the last several years are more likely to have the last 50 feet
> or so of bike lane stripe be dashed, rather than solid. That's intended to convey that
> cyclists may move left to lane center to avoid right hooks, and that motorists should,
> when clear, merge into the bike lane and turn right from a position close to the curb.
> But IME, almost nobody knows that or does that.
>
> Try to imagine another situation where road design encourages turning across the path of
> a vehicle going straight. Can you imagine freeway exit ramps designed that way?
>
>

To be honest cycle infrastructure nr freeways/bypass type roads never seems
to work (mostly) my commute uses miles of one, but I’m rare in that my work
is just off it.

For most following the bypass is a longer way around and almost certainly
less pleasant.

>>>
>>> And that hazard is one that's explained thoroughly in every legitimate
>>> bicycling education program. Those programs teach cyclists to be aware
>>> of that hazard, and how to avoid that hazard. Example:
>>> https://cyclingsavvy.org/2013/09/preventing-right-hooks-smart-moves-video/
>>>
>>> But of course, if a person mocks the very idea of learning these things,
>>> that person will occasionally need panic braking, and possibly
>>> hospitalization. It would be better for that person to ride only on
>>> special separate bike trails far removed from traffic.
>>>
>>> It takes competence to ride on actual roads.
>>>
>> I’d argue that should be safe for a child etc to ride and cross roads in
>> most places to be honest.
>
> "Should be safe" should apply to children who have been taught proper riding techniques
> for the roads upon which they ride. And kids should be guided onto only appropriate roads
> for their level of competence. It will never be possible to turn wobbly,
> untrained 6-year-old
> beginners loose on busy streets. That's true whether or not those streets have bike lane
> markings or not. (Even Amsterdam trains its little kids in proper cycling.)
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 2/6/2023 5:06 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/6/2023 3:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/6/2023 2:25 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> "> I don't think anyone wanting better brakes was thinking
>>> of emergency stops. "
>>>
>>> You may not think that.
>>> SOme people who experience streets with more homicidal bus
>>> and auto drivers than rural paths with homicidal deer can
>>> see that differently.
>>
>> I wonder how many people reading here have had an actual
>> crash because their brakes provided insufficient deceleration.
>>
>> Note, going over the bars would not qualify. That's
>> potentially a sign of too much deceleration, and/or bad
>> technique. And brake levers squeezed to the bars would
>> probably not qualify. That's usually mechanical incompetence.
>>
>
> I was not advocating riders run out and buy more responsive braking
> systems.

I understood that. I was merely wondering. I suspect that very ordinary
brakes are fine for all but perhaps one out of a million stops. I
wondered if others have found otherwise.

> I intended to point out that riders analyze situational risk
> differently and choose equipment on their own personal analyses by their
> own criteria.

Of course that's true. But as you know, I'm fascinated by the power of
fashion; and fashion is a major part of most people's purchasing
criteria. Sure, people are allowed to buy what they want; but that
doesn't mean any particular choice is objectively good.

I'm also a data geek. As I recall, equipment failure causes a very small
portion of bike crashes. I think inadequate brakes (as opposed to broken
brakes) would likely be a rather tiny portion of those equipment
failures that do cause crashes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm not even going to bother correcting the physics ignorance on
display. But it is extreme.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 17:24:47 -0500, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>...the smaller wheel(s) require less restraint from the disk
>brakes to stop them.

Nope. The way bicycle brakes work is by converting your kinetic
(motional) energy, into thermal energy. As long as the total mass of
the bicycle, rider, and luggage are identical, the thermal energy
dissipated is:
E = m * v^2
in order to stop are the same for any wheel regardless of wheel
diameter. This assumes no slippage between the tire and the road and
identical disk brake systems. The energy needed to stop is:
Energy = Force * distance
See link below for units.

Where things get confusing is the ability of the brakes to convert
kinetic energy to heat. The main factors are brake pad area, brake
pad pressure and time needed to stop (deceleration). If you apply
less pressure, it takes you longer to stop, but the energy dissipated
is the same as if you applied more pressure and stopped quicker.

This web page explains the physics better than I could:
"Energy Education - Braking":
<https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Braking>

So much for theory. Reality suggests that smaller diameter wheels
have smaller disks and brake pads. These require more force from the
brake lever in order to stop. Imagine a 700c wheel and disk brake
system scaled down to about half size. The energy required to stop is
still the same, but because of the smaller disk brake system, more
pressure from the brake levers or more motion from the brake levers
will be needed to stop. In addition, the same amount of heat will be
dissipated in across a smaller area (smaller disk) resulting in higher
temperatures.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Catrike Rider]

<LOL> As if Krygowski's opnion on what is "objectively good" is
significant.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2023 21:38:20 -0500, Frank Krygowski

<CHUCKLE> Frank proves my point, regarding engineering knowledge.

A small wheel will accelerate faster than a large one.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/18725/how-much-effect-does-the-mass-of-a-bicycle-tire-have-on-acceleration

If that's true, a smaller wheel will decelerate faster too.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 21:25:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 17:24:47 -0500, Catrike Rider
><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>...the smaller wheel(s) require less restraint from the disk
>>brakes to stop them.
>
>Nope. The way bicycle brakes work is by converting your kinetic
>(motional) energy, into thermal energy. As long as the total mass of
>the bicycle, rider, and luggage are identical, the thermal energy
>dissipated is:
> E = m * v^2
>in order to stop are the same for any wheel regardless of wheel
>diameter. This assumes no slippage between the tire and the road and
>identical disk brake systems. The energy needed to stop is:
> Energy = Force * distance
>See link below for units.
>
>Where things get confusing is the ability of the brakes to convert
>kinetic energy to heat. The main factors are brake pad area, brake
>pad pressure and time needed to stop (deceleration). If you apply
>less pressure, it takes you longer to stop, but the energy dissipated
>is the same as if you applied more pressure and stopped quicker.
>
>This web page explains the physics better than I could:
>"Energy Education - Braking":
><https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Braking>
>
>So much for theory. Reality suggests that smaller diameter wheels
>have smaller disks and brake pads.

The BB7 brakes on my 20 inch Catrike wheels are the same as those on
larger wheels.

>These require more force from the
>brake lever in order to stop. Imagine a 700c wheel and disk brake
>system scaled down to about half size. The energy required to stop is
>still the same, but because of the smaller disk brake system, more
>pressure from the brake levers or more motion from the brake levers
>will be needed to stop. In addition, the same amount of heat will be
>dissipated in across a smaller area (smaller disk) resulting in higher
>temperatures.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2023 03:11:50 -0500, Catrike Rider

Probably not the best site for that... I was looking for examples
regarding moment of inertia.

[AMuzi]

+1

Drum brakes are marginally adequate for 700C wheels but
quite snappy on 16" with the same hub in both. I noticed
this assembling Schwinn 'Krate' children's bicycles when I
was in my teens. It's a dramatic difference.

[AMuzi]

That is true but it's a different effect. Mass distance from
center of rotation affects acceleration and deceleration but
hub brake performance on various size wheels is a simpler
problem of leverage.

[Catrike Rider]

My cite does not address what I thought it did. I was searching for
an examples of moment of inertia. I should have looked under
"flywheel," but I expect most people understand the issue.

[Roger Meriman]

Probably a cost saving BB7 are decades old, and I guess expected use case.
160mm seems to be the default for road ish going bikes get occasional
weight weenie wanting 140mm.

>
>> These require more force from the
>> brake lever in order to stop. Imagine a 700c wheel and disk brake
>> system scaled down to about half size. The energy required to stop is
>> still the same, but because of the smaller disk brake system, more
>> pressure from the brake levers or more motion from the brake levers
>> will be needed to stop. In addition, the same amount of heat will be
>> dissipated in across a smaller area (smaller disk) resulting in higher
>> temperatures.
>
> A small wheel will accelerate faster than a large one.
>
> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/18725/how-much-effect-does-the-mass-of-a-bicycle-tire-have-on-acceleration
>
> If that's true, a smaller wheel will decelerate faster too.
>

Might not be much in weights 20in Marathon racers are slightly lighter than
my broadly similar sized gravel tyres, a road tyre would be getting on for
half the weight.

I’d assume the wheels are lighter but possibly not by much. Particularly
compared to some lightweight climbing wheel sets.

I’d assume given that the trike has two wide tyres up front, it should be
able to generate a fair amount of braking, though considering it’s length
I’m mildly surprised they (CatTrike) talk about 90% of braking done at
front and being able to lift the rear.

Which sounds like it’s rather front heavy.

Roger Merriman