Idiot Manufacturers

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Tom Kunich

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Jul 14, 2021, 7:40:22 PM7/14/21
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I can buy a new 12 speed Campy Chorus group than I can an older used 10 speed Record mini-group.

The particular insanity of this is that the new 12 speed groups have a rear derailleur that can shift up to a 34 tooth cassette while the 10 speed Record limits you to a 28 tooth or shoehorned in 29 tooth.

Now I'll be the first to say that Campy has really improved their manual shifters. But I HATE having to spend all of my time in the hills shifting through gears that give you no advantage on a climb and are too slow on a fast descent to pedal unless you're running a 53 and even then you have to really spin on most descents.

One of the advantages I had with the Di2 11 speed on two of my bikes is that I would program the levers to work the way I wanted them to work.

The outside or bottom or large levers I programmed to shift to a "faster" gear. On the right side that means dropping down a cog. On the left side that meant shifting into the big ring. It was a hell of a lot easier to remember that way since the inside/smaller lever was a little difficult to work with my large hands.

Which brings me to the point: I am considering changing the Di2 on the Lemond Zurich which is external, over to the Merlin. Then maybe I can do the same with the Colnago Di2.

One of the items I've been trying to sell is an external battery holder. The only extra things I would have to buy is an external battery and a bottom bracket wire harness. Everything else is interchangeable.

Then I could put the Campy gear on those bikes and they would sell cheaper so hopefully more readily. Lord knows that nothing is moving at all right now with the Biden economy just plugging along like Obama x -4.

I would say more about that demented idiot but he said everyone that could be said when comparing cleaning the election rolls to the civil war where over 660,000 union soldiers died to end slavery.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 16, 2021, 1:26:17 PM7/16/21
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I've decided that since it is cheaper to switch to a Campy 12 speed than try to support my 10 speed stuff, that I will go that way. I have at least one guy interested in one of my for sale bikes. If that goes, the Merlin goes 12 speed Chorus.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 16, 2021, 1:39:40 PM7/16/21
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Here I am meaning to price out the necessary Campy 12 speed parts (Chorus levers and Centaur derailleurs and a 12 speed cassette) and Amazon is off the air. This seems to happen rather regularly. I wonder why that is. Especially during working hours.

AMuzi

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:27:23 PM7/16/21
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Nope.
CHR Ergo-12 with CHR or REC or SREC changers, not 11 speed
CEN changers.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Tom Kunich

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Jul 16, 2021, 2:55:22 PM7/16/21
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With Amazon not working I can't look anything up.

AMuzi

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Jul 16, 2021, 3:04:12 PM7/16/21
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Frank Krygowski

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Jul 16, 2021, 3:17:00 PM7/16/21
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I don't think more churning is going to solve your problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich

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Jul 16, 2021, 5:54:04 PM7/16/21
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Tell me Frank, how many upper end bicycle do you own? Don't be afraid of telling us for fear that you'll be laughed at since you seem to think that you're a bicycle mechanic because you can fix your 6 speed freewheel touring bike.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 16, 2021, 6:02:27 PM7/16/21
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Since you cannot buy their products off of that site and if you use their dealer networks you are hideously overcharged I don't use their website. Case in point: Asking a local Campy dealer how much Chorus levers would cost I got a quote of $637. The Amazon UK site is presently running and the cost of Super Record levers there is about that price. On the American Amazon I believe that the Chorus was $250 or so. With free shipping mind you.

John B.

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Jul 16, 2021, 6:44:20 PM7/16/21
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"Upper end"??

And here you've been regaling us with tales about how you buy second
hand stuff cheap on ebay or other second hand sources?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Frank Krygowski

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Jul 16, 2021, 9:20:14 PM7/16/21
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I don't churn. I don't have your problems.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski

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Jul 16, 2021, 9:22:59 PM7/16/21
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<sigh> "I can't look anything up."

The website Andrew cited offers free information, direct from the
manufacturer.

You seem compulsively dedicated to maintaining your own ignorance.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 17, 2021, 1:46:35 PM7/17/21
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>With Amazon not working I can't look anything up.

Amazon not working?
<https://status.aws.amazon.com>
No sign of massive user complaints:
<https://downdetector.com/status/amazon/>

Maybe just search Amazon for Campagnolo stuff?
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Campagnolo&s=price-desc-rank>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tom Kunich

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Jul 17, 2021, 2:46:54 PM7/17/21
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And you seem dedicated to shooting your mouth off about absolutely anything and then when you are proven wrong you simply misrepresent what was said. Or perhaps you simply do not understand the English language.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 17, 2021, 2:49:36 PM7/17/21
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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 10:46:35 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >With Amazon not working I can't look anything up.
> Amazon not working?
> <https://status.aws.amazon.com>
> No sign of massive user complaints:
> <https://downdetector.com/status/amazon/>
>
> Maybe just search Amazon for Campagnolo stuff?
> <https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Campagnolo&s=price-desc-rank>

So let me get you straight. After Amazon is off of the air for over 16 hours, you're "proving me wrong" because they are back on the air? There is really something wrong with you and it isn't getting any better.

pH

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Jul 17, 2021, 4:50:25 PM7/17/21
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Hi Tom.
One thing I've noticed (and liked) about bicyclists is how they tend to be more individualistic than
your average bear. It *does* lead to lots of strong opinions,
of course.

But: I *love* my 6-speed freewheel touring bike with barcon
shifters, et. al.

I also love my old Morris Minor and keep it postitive earth
even though I get told all the time to make it negative--kind
of like the people who think I should convert from 27" to 700C
(that fad).

pH in Aptos

Frank Krygowski

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Jul 17, 2021, 5:42:44 PM7/17/21
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I didn't misrepresent what was said. I quoted it. It's there in the
thread. Anybody can see it.

Tom, if you don't like what you said, you're free to say so. "Oops" or
"My mistake" or similar words will do.

It's so much classier than spewing more insults and deflections.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 17, 2021, 5:54:47 PM7/17/21
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 11:49:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 10:46:35 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >With Amazon not working I can't look anything up.

>> Amazon not working?
>> <https://status.aws.amazon.com>
>> No sign of massive user complaints:
>> <https://downdetector.com/status/amazon/>
>>
>> Maybe just search Amazon for Campagnolo stuff?
>> <https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Campagnolo&s=price-desc-rank>

>So let me get you straight. After Amazon is off of the air for over 16 hours, you're "proving me wrong" because they are back on the air?

The correct term is "back online" not "back on the air".

What I was demonstrating was:
1. Amazon was fully functional as of Saturday 10:46AM.
2. Amazon had no complaints of being offline for the previous 24 hrs.
3. Amazon has not had any reported outages for the month of July
2021:
<https://downdetector.com/archive/>
I use Downdetector quite often for determining is there is a problem.
I also use various "internet weather" sites to check on the ISP's. For
example:
<http://www.internettrafficreport.com/namerica.htm>
4. If Amazon were down for 16 hrs, I'm sure the media would have
reported the incident. The loss in revenue to Amazon would have been
substantial and quite newsworthy.

None of the aforementioned show any evidence of Amazon having been
recently offline. Therefore, I would conclude that either you
experienced a local outage (unlikely), experienced an Amazon specific
routing failure at your ISP (also unlikely), or you screwed up somehow
using your computah (highly probable).

I hate to mention the obvious, but troubleshooting is not your forte.

>There is really something wrong with you and it isn't getting any better.

True. I'm wasting my time keeping you entertained and should be doing
something useful.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 17, 2021, 6:10:45 PM7/17/21
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Well I agree with you. I have a touring bike sitting in the back yard under cover with an 8 speed XT setup but bar-end shifters. I don't use it anymore but it is available. The last time I went from here down to Aptos and back the next day, everyone was so burned out that they couldn't ride for a week. We stayed at the motel at the overpass. Everyone had to race up to the grocery store up on (Summit?) and then they were all dead after that. I had some sort of problem, and pulled over to the side of the road and all 15 of them rode away. Without any sort term memory I had to ride over to El Camino and go north to Palo Alto. They had stopped at a cafe and had food and drink while I was taking the long way. We finally met up at the Town and Country mall and continued across the Dumbarton Bridge where most of them had rides waiting for them. Three others and I rode back to San Leandro and two of those were so burned out that they didn't know where they were. But since I was riding one of my road bikes I was tired but OK. Though I would have been better if I had been able to stop at that cafe.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 17, 2021, 6:12:01 PM7/17/21
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Yes, I understand Frank. You do not read the English language well and don't know what quotation marks mean. That is besides the fact that you prefer to act stupid rather than to understand what is being said.

sms

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:57:49 AM7/18/21
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On 7/17/2021 2:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> 1. Amazon was fully functional as of Saturday 10:46AM.
> 2. Amazon had no complaints of being offline for the previous 24 hrs.
> 3. Amazon has not had any reported outages for the month of July
> 2021:

Obviously San Leandro has a different Amazon than Boulder Creek.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:00:06 AM7/18/21
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Jeff, do you know how to find out when I posted that message? Please do not tell me that Amazon wasn't down when it clearly was. I tested it every 15 minutes for at least 12 hours and it had been down before I started and until after I went to bed. Your pretense that this was NEWS NEWS NEWS seems to miss the point that this happens regularly. For all I know it is scheduled.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:03:57 AM7/18/21
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How many purchases did you make from Amazon on Friday?

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 18, 2021, 3:01:52 PM7/18/21
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff, do you know how to find out when I posted that message?

Yes I know everything. You have only to ask. From the message
header:
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
Your original announcement is at:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/6vYL7JsVilE/m/9b_ErJ_vAQAJ>

>Please do not tell me that Amazon wasn't down when it clearly was.

Ok, I won't tell you. I'll simply point out that the Amazon status
report, status logs, and crowd sourced DownDetector history shows
clearly that Amazon was not down.

>I tested it every 15 minutes for at least 12 hours and it had been down before I started and until after I went to bed. Your pretense that this was NEWS NEWS NEWS seems to miss the point that this happens regularly. For all I know it is scheduled.

I'm not impressed with your troubleshooting skills. You did the same
thing over and over and over for 12 hrs and expected different
results. That doesn't work. I rarely rely on a single tool to do
troubleshooting. That also applies to bicycles, where I measure
things twice using two different measuring tools. Same with
troubleshooting web services and site. There are plenty of tools
available to help isolate problems. I have seen individual sites
disappear due to DDoS attacks, router misconfiguration, trashed BGP
tables, and load balancing anomalies. You can also have problems on
your own computer that will block a single site. For example, your
browser could have been attact by malware which uses a DNS redirector
to send all DNS lookups to the malware site instead of the real DNS
site. In extreme cases, malware might have added a few lines to your
hosts file sending any Amazon web page lookup into a black hole.

One thing I know for sure. There was nobody else complaining about
Amazon being down. Even a few minutes downtime on a major site would
get the attention of the internet news services. For example, on June
25, 2021 Amazon had a 1 hr outage that immediately appeared on
DownDetector with 6,200 complaints:
<https://www.reuters.com/technology/amazon-services-down-multiple-users-downdetector-2021-06-24/>
When you see a major internet site go down, you won't be alone.

Anyway, I suggest you do a better job of troubleshooting and
verification BEFORE you accuse someone of ruining your internet
shopping experience.

"How to check if a website is down"?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+check+if+a+website+is+down>

sms

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Jul 18, 2021, 5:34:42 PM7/18/21
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On 7/18/2021 12:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> Ok, I won't tell you. I'll simply point out that the Amazon status
> report, status logs, and crowd sourced DownDetector history shows
> clearly that Amazon was not down.

Some people don't understand that problems with their ISP≠problems with
Amazon (or problems with their computer≠problems with Amazon).

As you stated, Amazon was not down.

Jeff, you may have to travel to San Leandro to troubleshoot Tom's
computer or network.

Tom Kunich

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Jul 18, 2021, 5:38:51 PM7/18/21
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On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 12:01:52 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Jeff, do you know how to find out when I posted that message?
> Yes I know everything. You have only to ask. From the message
> header:
> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
> Your original announcement is at:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/6vYL7JsVilE/m/9b_ErJ_vAQAJ>
> >Please do not tell me that Amazon wasn't down when it clearly was.
> Ok, I won't tell you. I'll simply point out that the Amazon status
> report, status logs, and crowd sourced DownDetector history shows
> clearly that Amazon was not down.

Then WHY did you show the status of Saturday and not Friday?

Tom Kunich

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Jul 18, 2021, 5:39:59 PM7/18/21
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Tell everyone here what my ISP is so that you can prove that you know anything about any of this.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 18, 2021, 6:24:02 PM7/18/21
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 14:38:49 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 18, 2021 at 12:01:52 PM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Jeff, do you know how to find out when I posted that message?
>> Yes I know everything. You have only to ask. From the message
>> header:
>> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
>> Your original announcement is at:
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/6vYL7JsVilE/m/9b_ErJ_vAQAJ>
>> >Please do not tell me that Amazon wasn't down when it clearly was.
>> Ok, I won't tell you. I'll simply point out that the Amazon status
>> report, status logs, and crowd sourced DownDetector history shows
>> clearly that Amazon was not down.

>Then WHY did you show the status of Saturday and not Friday?

You're welcome. I guess it's more important to blame someone (Amazon,
the internet, Biden, various manufacturers, me, etc) than to determine
what actually happened. Please note that just because I try to help
you solve YOUR problem doesn't magically make it my problem. It's
still your problem for you to solve and I'm just here to help.

Hint: If you understand how things work, you can fix many things.

I didn't know when you had the problem, only when you posted your
accusation. I read you posting on Friday but didn't have time to
reply until Saturday. To cover the time span, I posted a link to the
Downdetector 48 hr outage history:
<https://downdetector.com/archive/>
When you looked at it on Saturday, it should have shown all reported
outages for Friday and Saturday. There were none shown for Amazon.

Link to a better Amazon outage history:
<https://downdetector.com/status/amazon/archive/>
Note that the list only include when the Amazon outage started, not
when it ended. That's because restoration of service is often in
stages, which includes partial restorations. Users also like to
complain that something is down long after service has been restored.

Is there anything else you would like to accuse me of doing to insure
that you look like a victim instead of a perpetrator, accomplice, or
enabler?

Tom Kunich

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Jul 18, 2021, 6:48:16 PM7/18/21
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Is there anything else you would like to accuse me of since my ISP is AT&T and they had NO SERVICE all day Friday? The very FACT that they have an entire page to report outages shows that it occurs. Tell me, exactly why would I make that up? Oh, that's right, as some horses ass you're willing to believe absolutely anything. I suppose that is the cost of commenting on a bicycle tech group with people that know nothing about bicycles but want to act as if they did.

Tell you what you overwhelming piece of shit https://downdetector.com/insights/cloudflare-outage-takes-out-internet/ says that AT&T was out. So what does the shit in your mouth have to say about that?

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 18, 2021, 8:58:11 PM7/18/21
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On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:48:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
No, not really. You did the difficult part by accusing Amazon of
being down and not bothering to mention that you had no internet
access of any kind. Knowing that you had no internet access would
have presented a very different picture.

>The very FACT that they have an entire page to report outages shows that it occurs.

Well, you did a truly impressive job of troubleshooting your problem,
such as pounding on the Amazon web site every 15 minutes for 12 hours
to see if they returned from the dead. I probably would have found
the problem on one of the internet weather sites, but since I was a
day late, that didn't happen. Like I said, you were more interested
in assigning the blame than fixing the problem.

>Tell me, exactly why would I make that up?

That's easy. You continued to blame Amazon so that you would have
someone to blame for your misfortunes. All you mentioned was that
Amazon was down. Only after you read about the Cloudflare outage and
discover that it wasn't Amazon's fault. You really can't fix a
problem without first assigning the blame. I don't recall any problem
that you posted for "help" in RBT that wasn't preceded by blaming
someone or some company and followed by nearly zero useful information
where someone else might deduce the cause and offer a solution. That's
another "why would I make it up"? problem. You want the credit for
solving the problem. By withholding all subsequent information, you
effectively guarantee that the problem can be solvable only by you.
Kinda like not mentioning that you had lost all internet connectivity.
I also recall the bottom bracket and cable routing problems, where you
offered a continuous deluge of opinions and speculation, but no
measurements, no photos, no specifics, and no numbers. People were
throwing numbers your direction in an effort to determine what you
were working with and you never even bothered to compare them with
your parts. So there you have it. You fabricated a crisis so that
you would get plenty of attention and so that only you had enough
information available to solve the problem. The bit about asking SMS
for the name of your ISP was proof that you weren't going to hand
anyone enough information to figure out YOUR problem.

>Oh, that's right, as some horses ass you're willing to believe absolutely anything. I suppose that is the cost of commenting on a bicycle tech group with people that know nothing about bicycles but want to act as if they did.

I should mention that making it up also gives you the opportunity to
insult people who are trying to help. Somehow, I suspect that might
be counterproductive.

>Tell you what you overwhelming piece of shit https://downdetector.com/insights/cloudflare-outage-takes-out-internet/ says that AT&T was out. So what does the shit in your mouth have to say about that?

Congratulations. You found the problem and likely culprit. Nicely
done. However, you did it by using information which only you
possessed (that your internet was down and not just Amazon) and you
finally realized that you had to solve the problem yourself.

Incidentally, thank you for including a link to the Cloudflare press
release. I think that might be a first.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 18, 2021, 9:18:10 PM7/18/21
to
Also see:
<https://www.att.com/outages/>
for AT&T outage information. Nothing showing for your zip code. No
history, which is typical of companies that don't like bad news to
linger.

Oddly, there's no mention of a Cloudflare outage on the Downdetector
site:
<https://downdetector.com/status/cloudflare/archive/>
I guess few individual users have any reason to contact Cloudflare
directly. Well, maybe users of their DNS service, which seem to
account for 83% of their recent complaints.

Looks like everything at Cloudflare is now up and running:
<https://www.cloudflarestatus.com>
Oh-oh. Maybe I spoke too soon. Something just happening in parts of
Africa and Middle East, where the status page shows a bunch of systems
are being re-routed.

You can also get some status and history at:
<https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/history.atom>
RSS feed software required.
Grumble. RSS only shows incidents on and before Jul 15, 21:16 UTC. I
guess I'll have to wait a day for Friday's (July 16) problem log.

Incidentally, welcome to my world.

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:09:46 PM7/18/21
to
On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:48:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Tell you what you overwhelming piece of shit https://downdetector.com/insights/cloudflare-outage-takes-out-internet/ says that AT&T was out. So what does the shit in your mouth have to say about that?

Was AT&T really out for the afternoon of July 16, 2021? It might have
been but not at your house. This is a record of what you posted to
RBT on July 16 (highlighted in blue):
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/TomK-2021-07-16.jpg>
Dates and times are US left coast time. If AT&T were down, you would
not have been able to post any of the afternoon messages.

It would seem that you were merrily posting messages to RBT from
7:52AM to 4:50PM. It's possible that the outage started after 4:50PM,
but I'll need to wait the log files from Cloudflare to get the exact
time when it started.

So, once again you provide truncated information. First it was Amazon
was down when it wasn't. Then is was AT&T was down when it obviously
was not judging by your posting record. My guess(tm) what happened is
some routes through AT&T were impacted by the Cloudflare problem,
while others were still working. It is quite possible that the router
from AT&T to Google Groups was working allowing you post your drivel,
while the router to Amazon was not working.

Also odd is the duration. You said that you pounded on Amazon every
15 minutes for 12 hrs. An outage that long would be headline news.
The Downdetector article is very light on specifics, but my guess(tm)
is that the outage didn't last very long. That's suspicious because
I'm not seeing any other sites mentioning Cloudflare problems on
Friday. Also, the Cloudflare status page doesn't show anything wrong
on July 16.
<https://www.cloudflarestatus.com/#past-incidents>

So, what's the truth? I know Cloudflare wasn't down for 12 hrs. I
know you were posting furiously to RBT from 7:52AM to 4:50PM which
suggests that AT&T wasn't down. My local ISP's use Cloudflare and
show no indications of outages on their status pages. What really
happened? Did you embellish a few minutes of downtime into 12 hrs?

sms

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:40:34 PM7/18/21
to
On 7/18/2021 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> You're welcome. I guess it's more important to blame someone (Amazon,
> the internet, Biden, various manufacturers, me, etc) than to determine
> what actually happened. Please note that just because I try to help
> you solve YOUR problem doesn't magically make it my problem. It's
> still your problem for you to solve and I'm just here to help.

No Jeff, it's your problem now.

A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced the
altitude and spotted a woman below. He descended a bit more and
shouted: “Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would
meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.”

The woman replied, “You are in a hot air balloon approximately
30 feet above the ground. You are between 40 and 41 degrees north
latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude.”

“You must be a Democrat,” said the balloonist. “I am,” said the
woman. “How did you know?” “Well”, answered the balloonist,
“everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what
to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly,
you’ve not been much help so far.”

The woman below responded, “You must be a Republican.” “I am”
replied the balloonist, but how did you know?” “Well,” said the
woman, “You don’t know where you are or where you are going. You
have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made
a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to
solve your problem. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you
were in before we met, but now, somehow, it’s my fault.”

sms

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Jul 18, 2021, 10:43:15 PM7/18/21
to
On 7/18/2021 6:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Also see:
> <https://www.att.com/outages/>
> for AT&T outage information. Nothing showing for your zip code. No
> history, which is typical of companies that don't like bad news to
> linger.

Sometimes when Comcast is down I momentarily think that a particular web
site is down. Then I check my phone using cellular data. If things are
up then I hotspot from the computer to the phone.

Tom probably had an ISP outage, or some other issue that was blocking
Amazon.

John B.

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:48:21 PM7/18/21
to
On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 19:40:30 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:
The first time I heard that story the bloke in the balloon shouted
down to a farmer saying "Can you tell me where I am?" And the farmer
stopped his plowing, looked up and replied, "You are up in a balloon!"
--
Cheers,

John B.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 19, 2021, 9:23:19 AM7/19/21
to
Perhaps you'd like to explain how I have access to this site, to Ebay, to Google in general, to every other site and to all things Internet in general? Why is the only site not responding Amazon? Why can I get Amazon UK?

Jeff, it grows tiresome when people like Frank who was never a real world kind of guy pretends that he is. Jay should know better but he doesn't. And between his wild-ass guessing and yours I tend to get angry. I can only ask that you refrain from making guesses about things you know nothing about. You are willing to accuse AT&T of not reporting outages but not Amazon? Do you understand what that makes you look like? Amazon is a company doing literally millions of sales every minute. That their servers could hold up is absolutely amazing to me and I worked on computers that shook the world.

May your health improve if not your sensibility.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Jul 19, 2021, 2:43:05 PM7/19/21
to
On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Perhaps you'd like to explain how I have access to this site, to Ebay, to Google in general, to every other site and to all things Internet in general? Why is the only site not responding Amazon? Why can I get Amazon UK?

I partly explained that in a subsequent posting, which you seem to
have ignored:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/6vYL7JsVilE/m/xabcU32kAgAJ>
In case you missed it, there is no way that Amazon, Cloudflare, or
AT&T were down for 12 hrs on Friday.

If you want more detail, read about BGP (border gateway protocol)
routing, which is how ISP's communicate with each other:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bgp+routing>
<https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/security/glossary/what-is-bgp/>
Note especially the section on "How BGP can break the Internet" which
is what I would guess(tm) may have been the problem on Friday, if
there really was a problem.

>I tend to get angry.

When are you not angry?

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 19, 2021, 6:27:39 PM7/19/21
to
On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 11:43:05 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps you'd like to explain how I have access to this site, to Ebay, to Google in general, to every other site and to all things Internet in general? Why is the only site not responding Amazon? Why can I get Amazon UK?
> I partly explained that in a subsequent posting, which you seem to
> have ignored:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/6vYL7JsVilE/m/xabcU32kAgAJ>
> In case you missed it, there is no way that Amazon, Cloudflare, or
> AT&T were down for 12 hrs on Friday.
>
> If you want more detail, read about BGP (border gateway protocol)
> routing, which is how ISP's communicate with each other:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=bgp+routing>
> <https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/security/glossary/what-is-bgp/>
> Note especially the section on "How BGP can break the Internet" which
> is what I would guess(tm) may have been the problem on Friday, if
> there really was a problem.
> >I tend to get angry.
> When are you not angry?

When are you not acting stupid. I have an email from Amazon telling me their policies have changed. If I click on the actual policy I get:

www.amazon.com unexpectedly closed the connection.
Try:

Checking the connection
Checking the proxy and the firewall
Running Windows Network Diagnostics
ERR_CONNECTION_CLOSED

I got up at 5:40 this morning and had that message, I just copied that message off of the attempt to get to Amazon just now - that is nearly 10 hours. I have NO trouble getting Amazon UK. But if I try to order anything because this is an American account it would try to transfer me and show that same message.

Oh, that's right, it is your belief that my AT&T account is inoperative and I am posting here via the magic tooth fairy.

I suggest you not talk about things you don't know anything about.

John B.

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Jul 19, 2021, 6:59:56 PM7/19/21
to
On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
It is obviously a -plot, probably by the Democrats, to keep Tommy from
buying all that low cost junk from Amazon.

See, Tommy exists on "the Dole", i.e. unemployment, etc, from his
friendly government and has hardly enough funds to by food so his
friendly government wants to limit his purchases on Amazon so he can
pay for his groceries.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Jul 19, 2021, 8:06:36 PM7/19/21
to
On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have an email from Amazon telling me their policies have changed. If I click on the actual policy I get:

You didn't post the Amazon policy link. What did you expect me to do
with your useless information. Oddly, I'm an Amazon customer and I
didn't see an email indicating a change of policy. What changed that
would have an affect on your ability to spend your stimulus checks on
bicycles and parts?

>www.amazon.com unexpectedly closed the connection.
>Try:
>
>Checking the connection
>Checking the proxy and the firewall
>Running Windows Network Diagnostics
>ERR_CONNECTION_CLOSED

Amazing. We now have a clue that might help. You're running Windoze.
Extra credit for disclosing the version of Windoze. The grand prize
for disclosing which browser and version you're using. Are you
running a VPN or using the browser in "private" mode? If you don't
want to release such information, then figure out if it's an old
version. Ancient versions of the OS and browser don't work very well
with some "modern" applications.

Incidentally, I have no intention of fixing your problem. In fact,
I'm enjoying myself watching you flounder around chasing ghosts. What
I will do is give you hints which you can use to diagnose the problem.
However, you get to do the searching and the work. I'll just sit
here, watch the fun, and pass judgment on your actions. Just like you
do to most everyone else.

>I got up at 5:40 this morning and had that message,

It wasn't me. I was asleep at that hour.

>I just copied that message off of the attempt to get to Amazon just now - that is nearly 10 hours. I have NO trouble getting Amazon UK. But if I try to order anything because this is an American account it would try to transfer me and show that same message.

Yes, that makes sense. You could subscribe to one of the various VPN
services and use a server that's in the UK. That way Amazon thinks
you're in the UK instead of the colonies. You can get a trial account
that's good for about 2 weeks on almost any VPN service.

>Oh, that's right, it is your belief that my AT&T account is inoperative and I am posting here via the magic tooth fairy.

Does it matter? What do you care what I believe? However, if you
want my opinion, based on about 40 years of dealing with bizarre
computah problems and belligerent customers, I can email my current
rate schedule to you.

>I suggest you not talk about things you don't know anything about.

That's odd. First, you seem to be asking for my assistance and
opinions. Now you are suggesting that I not provide you with
anything. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to torment you further. I just
finished repairing my emergency generator and need to find a smaller
battery and clean up the mess I made:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/DuroMax%20XP4400E.jpg>
So, I'll be merciful:
"How to Fix ERR Connection Closed Error in Chrome Browser"
<https://www.techbout.com/err-connection-closed-chrome-39527/>
Before attempting any fixes, I strongly suggest you run a backup using
"System Restore" so that after you screw things up, you have a
fighting chance at recovery.
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/use-system-restore-a5ae3ed9-07c4-fd56-45ee-096777ecd14e>

The first step to solving a problem is to blame someone. You have
that part perfected. However, please note that you cannot blame the
person who is going to fix the problem. They might get angry and
refuse to help.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 10:50:39 AM7/20/21
to
Using that site and cleaning and resetting the Chrome browser causes Chrome to bring up the Amazon home page. Otherwise nothing has changed. It returns the same error message as before if I attempt to go to a product site.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 11:32:17 AM7/20/21
to
OK, it turned out to be a very simple problem. A couple of updates were added to the computer and screwed the system up unless it was restarted. Restarting the computer fixed everything.

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 12:06:32 PM7/20/21
to
So Amazon wasn't down after all.

And returning to the point made at the beginning of this diversion: You
could have gotten the Campagnolo information you needed from
www.campagnolo.com with zero trouble.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 1:07:14 PM7/20/21
to
On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>OK, it turned out to be a very simple problem. A couple of updates were added to the computer and screwed the system up unless it was restarted. Restarting the computer fixed everything.

Congratulations. I assumed that you would have rebooted the computer
or checked for updates, but apparently not. If the machine needed to
be rebooted, you would have seen a pop-up warning or reminder in the
lower right hand corner of the screen.

That last Win 10 update I received (KB5004237) was on July 13 or Patch
Tuesday, when Microsloth issues its mega bloated updates, fixes,
patches, and feature updates.
Settings -> Updates & Security -> View Update History
Since you seem to leave your machine on continuously, the update
should have installed itself in the background and notified you with
multiple obnoxious warnings to reboot your computer. You would have
noticed these. Therefore, I suspect KB5004237 installed itself in the
background, while you were gone, and rebooted itself. Therefore, I
don't think a Windoze update is what cause your Amazon problem.

I'll assume that you're using Google Chrome browser. Chrome released
a bunch of security fixes on July 15 (Stable Channel 91.0.4472.164).
<https://chromereleases.googleblog.com>
Unlike Windows and most apps, the Chrome browser does not remind you
to reboot after a background update. It just assumes that you will
eventually close and restart the Chrome browser. It will happily run
the previous version until you restart Chrome. There is a small
notification that temporarily appears in the lower right corner of the
screen, but it is easily missed. I'm not surprised that the browser
might go awry on the day after a browser update.

If you want to check the version or update Chrome, go to:
Help -> About Google Chrome -> Update or Restart

Short term solution: Reboot more often. Windoze 10 isn't all that
stable and doesn't run reliably enough to be up continuously between
mega-updates.

Long term solution: Switch to Linux if you want to leave your
computah turned on all the time. My former office Linux Mint Cinnamon
server was typically up for 6 months between reboots.

BTW, you're welcome.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 7:10:20 PM7/20/21
to
All of the updates were present and installed. But the usual Windows problem that these updates often do not work unless the system is restarted. Since the ONLY program that was affected by this problem was Amazon, this was an Amazon problem.

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 8:37:57 PM7/20/21
to
<sigh> No, Tom. The Amazon "program" does not reside on your computer.
Your computer has a browser. That browser interacts with various
websites including Amazon's website, which resides on _their_ computers.
And since nobody else in the world seems to have suffered inability to
access Amazon's website, the problem isn't there either.

The problem, like so many, is part of the Tom Kunich Mystery Spot.

My sympathies.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Jul 20, 2021, 9:47:35 PM7/20/21
to
On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>All of the updates were present and installed.

Probably true. My guess(tm) is that it was the Chrome browser update
that caused the problem followed by your failure to notice the tiny
notification from Chrome indicating that Chrome should be restarted.
Windoze Update would not have been involved.

>But the usual Windows problem that these updates often do
>not work unless the system is restarted.

Well, lets see if that works. KB5004237 was the Windoze update. There
should be some clue in the documentation if a reboot is required after
installation. Nothing in the MS docs, so maybe in the user
contributions. Yep. For example:

<https://windows101tricks.com/windows-update-failed/>
"KB5004237 will download and install automatically and you need to
restart your PC to apply them."

Plenty more users indicating that a restart is required.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=KB5004237+%22need+to+restart+your+PC%22>

Therefore, if your updates were "present and installed", you or the
magic genie inside your computer, must have restarted your PC.
However, if you delayed the restart until this morning, you would have
been blessed by several restarts and (depending on the speed of your
computah) a rather long wait while Windoze 10 finishes the install.
This is unlikely as I'm certain you would have complained about it.

>Since the ONLY program that was affected by this problem was
>Amazon, this was an Amazon problem.

I like that. Blame the victim? Why did you even bother to add that
line? You've fixed the problem, which is all that's important. Or,
do you want the credit for finding and fixing the problem, which
requires that the blame is not assigned to you because of a failure to
reboot? You must want the credit awfully badly. Ok. You get all the
credit. Do with the credit as you will. Just don't go blaming the
victim. However, if you must assign the blame, I suggest blaming
Google, for failing to recognize that their Chrome update probably
trashed some in RAM network tables, such as your local DNS cache,
requiring a reboot to clears the tables.

Time wasted: 32 minutes.

funkma...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 9:42:40 AM7/21/21
to
I get such a kick out of watching someone who has "an intuitive grasp of concepts of differential and integral calculus and the ability to express these concepts in the form of software and firmware" blame amazon for the fact that MS updated his OS.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 10:45:17 AM7/21/21
to
Frank, after your idiotic claim that oval chain rings do not have a threat of overshift, you no longer have any veracity at all. I suggest you go stand in the corner with all of the other 12 year olds.

If Ebay and Craigslist and Google and all of the rest of the programs I have worked without the restart, Amazon should have as well or else THEIR programming was faulty. You don't like it? Shove it up your ass idiot.

Frank Krygowski

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 11:54:30 AM7/21/21
to
Tha's a classic "Straw Man" argument. I never made that claim.

I said Shimano Biopace never had a reputation for dropping chains during
front shifts. Such a reputation was not what caused Biopace to pass out
of fashion.

Am I wrong? Prove it. Post links documenting the prevalence of those
dropped chains from BIOPACE, not other non-round rings. Others have
already asked you to do that, but you've failed.

That purported problem exists only in your so-called "memory."

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann

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Jul 21, 2021, 12:04:41 PM7/21/21
to
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I get such a kick out of watching someone who has "an intuitive grasp of concepts of differential and integral calculus and the ability to express these concepts in the form of software and firmware" blame amazon for the fact that MS updated his OS.

To be fair to Tom, he didn't write that line to describe himself. It
was part of a quote from Dr. Sean McCown, appearing on Tom's
LinkedIn.com recommendation page:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/skecNFuoSzw/m/85HA_31UAQAJ>
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/>

Also, it's not clear if the Amazon access problem was caused by the MS
Win 10 update, or the Google Chrome browser update. It might have
been both. One thing for sure, it wasn't Amazon's fault since there
was no way that Amazon could have tweaked or rebooted Tom's computer
to fix the problem.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 12:39:27 PM7/21/21
to
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 9:04:41 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I get such a kick out of watching someone who has "an intuitive grasp of concepts of differential and integral calculus and the ability to express these concepts in the form of software and firmware" blame amazon for the fact that MS updated his OS.
> To be fair to Tom, he didn't write that line to describe himself. It
> was part of a quote from Dr. Sean McCown, appearing on Tom's
> LinkedIn.com recommendation page:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/skecNFuoSzw/m/85HA_31UAQAJ>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/>
>
> Also, it's not clear if the Amazon access problem was caused by the MS
> Win 10 update, or the Google Chrome browser update. It might have
> been both. One thing for sure, it wasn't Amazon's fault since there
> was no way that Amazon could have tweaked or rebooted Tom's computer
> to fix the problem.

If every other program operated but Amazon, it was Amazon's program and probably their attempt to put cookies into your system without your permission that caused this failure. The updates that didn't install without a restart had to do with blocking adding cookies without permission. You may believe that these things are harmless but we have antivirus programs to prevent it.

funkma...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 1:35:01 PM7/21/21
to
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 12:04:41 PM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I get such a kick out of watching someone who has "an intuitive grasp of concepts of differential and integral calculus and the ability to express these concepts in the form of software and firmware" blame amazon for the fact that MS updated his OS.
> To be fair to Tom, he didn't write that line to describe himself. It
> was part of a quote from Dr. Sean McCown, appearing on Tom's
> LinkedIn.com recommendation page:

Yes, I understand that sparky didn't write that about himself. He did, however, promote it as 'proof' of his technical acumen - Acumen which any of us who really _do_ have such skill sets understand he does not have.

> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/skecNFuoSzw/m/85HA_31UAQAJ>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/>
>
> Also, it's not clear if the Amazon access problem was caused by the MS
> Win 10 update, or the Google Chrome browser update. It might have
> been both.

I know that, You know that, Frank K knows that. Tommy doesn't know that. The point is, it isn't an issue with Amazon's website.

funkma...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 1:52:00 PM7/21/21
to
On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 12:39:27 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 9:04:41 AM UTC-7, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> > <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I get such a kick out of watching someone who has "an intuitive grasp of concepts of differential and integral calculus and the ability to express these concepts in the form of software and firmware" blame amazon for the fact that MS updated his OS.
> > To be fair to Tom, he didn't write that line to describe himself. It
> > was part of a quote from Dr. Sean McCown, appearing on Tom's
> > LinkedIn.com recommendation page:
> > <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/skecNFuoSzw/m/85HA_31UAQAJ>
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kunich-22012/>
> >
> > Also, it's not clear if the Amazon access problem was caused by the MS
> > Win 10 update, or the Google Chrome browser update. It might have
> > been both. One thing for sure, it wasn't Amazon's fault since there
> > was no way that Amazon could have tweaked or rebooted Tom's computer
> > to fix the problem.
> If every other program operated but Amazon, it was Amazon's program

Someone with "an intuitive grasp of concepts of differential and integral calculus and the ability to express these concepts in the form of software and firmware" would know there isn't any such thing as "amazon's program". Amazon is a website that attempts to be compatible with an installed program such as Google Chrome on anoperating system such as Windows 10. If you had attempted to use any of the websites listed in the Down Detector link Jeff provided, you likely would have had the same problem. Neither Microsoft or Google clear their updates with Amazon (or anyone else) before they release them. They do some validation to show that the changes don't royally fuck thing up, but there is no guarantee in any user agreement for any installed program (which Amazon is _not_, BTW) that says updates will always be seamless. As Jeff noted, this wasn't an Amazon Issue. The Amazon website interacted on the front end of your PC the same way it did before the Chrome/MS updates. The difference is what MS/Chrome did with that interaction.

You should really stop pretending you understand how this internet thingie works, sparky. You clearly don't. Even Frank who never claimed to have electronic technology background understands there is no 'amazon program'. Once again, you are completely out of your league.

Jeff Liebermann

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 3:11:41 PM7/21/21
to
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>If every other program operated but Amazon, it was Amazon's program

By the same logic, if most everyone else's computer connected normally
to Amazon after the updates, it must have been your problem.

"When you have eliminated the obvious solutions, whatever remains,
however ridiculous, must be Tom's version of the truth."
(My apologies to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle).

>and probably their attempt to put cookies into your system without
>your permission that caused this failure.

Baloney. You can't even login to Amazon without enabling cookies in
your browser. If you try, like I just did, you'll find a warning
suggesting that you turn on cookies in your browser or go away.
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GVASXV5UZ64R4Y25>
Even if you managed to get past that, you couldn't order anything
without enabling cookies.

Incidentally, Amazon sells cookies and doesn't just "put cookies on
your system" for free. I looked and didn't find any cookies sitting
on my system:
<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cookies>

>The updates that didn't install without a restart had to do with
>blocking adding cookies without permission.

Cookies are not required for Windoze update because cookies are a
feature of the web browser (Google Chrome) which is not part of the
Windoze update procedure. Google might use cookies as part of their
Chrome browser update procedure, but I doubt it. I couldn't find
anything relevant with Google search.

>You may believe that these things are harmless but we have
>antivirus programs to prevent it.

Most anti-virus programs don't even look at cookies. Anti-virus
suites, which are a collection related security tools, often include
cookie managers. Cookies are generally considered a threat to your
privacy, not a threat to system stability.

Keep trying. Literally every opinion and theory you've provided
concerning your failure to connect to Amazon has been wrong. Perhaps
you should stop dispensing rubbish and quit while you're ahead?

Time wasted: 17 minutes

John B.

unread,
Jul 21, 2021, 6:40:03 PM7/21/21
to
On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
Idiot Ass??? It makes perfect sense. Amazon is, apparently, accessibly
to the entire world... except for Tommy Boy.

And it is Amazon that is at fault?
--
Cheers,

John B.

Jeff Liebermann

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Aug 9, 2021, 8:58:38 PM8/9/21
to
On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 15:23:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

One more status page on Amazon:
<https://status.aws.amazon.com>
If you search for (control-F) for "Status History".
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