New bike vs. old bike

[Frank Krygowski]

Another climbing comparison test, classic bike vs. modern bike. Bianchi
aluminum vs. current Pinarello carbon fiber. 9 speed vs. 12 speed,
aluminum vs. CF wheels, cable shifting vs. wireless, wide vs. narrow
tires, caliper vs. disc, etc.


"You've come here, though, for the time difference."

https://youtu.be/lawourSeonE?t=922


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Meriman]

I’d to be honest expect that a older road bike should hold its own for most
part with hill climbing, ie where Aero is less of factor.

It’s quite a nice climb they used as well, has a decent bike shop where
they started. It’s Chedder Gorge’s less glamorous sister. Ie it’s the same
ridge and similar gorge.

Roger Merriman

[Lou Holtman]

My answer when someone ask me after a new bike purchase ‘does it make you faster’: does it have to? Discussion closed.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

My Trek Alpha 1.5 looks like my Trek Madone but to my mind it rides all hell and gone better. I think that the weight difference is .2 lbs but it might be 1.2 lbs different. Now my Trek Emonda DID climb faster and my Look KG585 which weighed 16 lbs on the road also climbed faster, the Look also jumped all around underneath me and I did NOT like that. On really steep stuff the light bikes would lift the front wheels all the time. That made it harder to ride because you couldn't stand up on the pedals but had to sit and lean far forward. While it is definitely harder to climb on the steel bikes they are easier to ride. That Panatani special is aluminum and especially light.

[Tom Kunich]

My question are probably - does it make you happy? I saw very few bikes out today. The big groups should have been out in the heat but weren't. Wonder why that was?

[Mark Cleary]

My first good CF road bike was a Bottecchia American in 2009 with Shimano 105 and FSA crank 50/34. It was a 61 probably a bit on the large size but rode well. A solid well made bike I road about 12,000 miles on till I sold it. I believe did a century on a few times in the 5:20 to 5:40 time range not a time trial just riding. These days with 11 speeds and a much more refined Ti bike with Ultegra I don't ride one bit faster. Those who buy and bike and are expecting to get faster are all less than 35 years old. The only thing I can do better is maybe I am focused and can hang in there when tired. The only thing that makes a difference is weight when climb long and long. Then the lightest you can get is the best bike. On the flats all bets are off aero helps.
Deacon Mark

[AMuzi]

On 6/3/2023 1:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 6:06:37 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> Another climbing comparison test, classic bike vs. modern bike. Bianchi
>> aluminum vs. current Pinarello carbon fiber. 9 speed vs. 12 speed,
>> aluminum vs. CF wheels, cable shifting vs. wireless, wide vs. narrow
>> tires, caliper vs. disc, etc.
>>
>>
>> "You've come here, though, for the time difference."
>>
>> https://youtu.be/lawourSeonE?t=922
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>

> My answer when someone ask me after a new bike purchase ‘does it make you faster’: does it have to? Discussion closed.
>
> Lou
>

Excellent response and a good attitude too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Lou Holtman]

When someone shows up with a new bike most people will first lift the bike. I never do that, I first look at the components and the built quality. I'm weird....

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm glad to hear that. I don't think I ever bought or built a bike with
the intent to go faster. In general, my objectives have been things like
distance (e.g. for touring), utility (e.g. carrying capacity), off-road
ability (mountain bike), portability (folding bikes) etc. After all, I
don't race, and never did race much.

However, I'm aware of others who do seem to be fixated on speed. Why
else buy aero wheels, aero handlebars etc. and measure every bike's
weight down to the ounce or gram?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Mark Cleary]

I am fixed on the beauty of the bike and how it looks. That is purely subjective and has zero to do with speed or really anything else. To me there is nothing beautiful or elegant about a load touring bike. But if you are touring and seeing the sights and need lots of items they become the beauty of the bike.
Deacon mark

[Lou Holtman]

Sure there are people that do that but in my neck of the woods that is a small minority.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Exactly. To me a loaded touring bike is butt ugly, but I can appreciate nice components on a loaded touring bike.

Lou

[Roger Meriman]

Lot of roadies do seem quite performance oriented certainly at club level
hence stuff like Strava popularity.

More so in my experience than MTBer who are more interested in the ride.

This said there is more to speed and performance than racing, ie on a trail
riding it on a 90’s MTB or Gravel bike will feel under biked, which at some
point will go from fun to tedious, vs full suspension MTB within last
decade or so will sanitise some tamer trails.

Case in point yesterday I did a 66mile loop of Isle of Wight some of the
rocky descents I could of flown down on the MTB, though would of been a
slog on the roadie climbs at the end!

Which is also the reason roadies buy faster bits, which is to keep up with
their mates! Or at least think it will how much it does really?

I’m fairly certain that I’m no slower in any meaningful way on my Gravel
bike vs a road bike. Done 20+ climbs on it which seem to be on point in
terms of times, though as Pros have noted it’s worth pausing and looking in
some places and experiencing than just staring at one’s stem!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 23:49:06 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 12:39:45?AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/3/2023 2:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> > On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 6:06:37?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> Another climbing comparison test, classic bike vs. modern bike. Bianchi
>> >> aluminum vs. current Pinarello carbon fiber. 9 speed vs. 12 speed,
>> >> aluminum vs. CF wheels, cable shifting vs. wireless, wide vs. narrow
>> >> tires, caliper vs. disc, etc.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "You've come here, though, for the time difference."
>> >>
>> >> https://youtu.be/lawourSeonE?t=922
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> > My answer when someone ask me after a new bike purchase ‘does it make you faster’: does it have to? Discussion closed.
>> I'm glad to hear that. I don't think I ever bought or built a bike with
>> the intent to go faster. In general, my objectives have been things like
>> distance (e.g. for touring), utility (e.g. carrying capacity), off-road
>> ability (mountain bike), portability (folding bikes) etc. After all, I
>> don't race, and never did race much.
>>
>> However, I'm aware of others who do seem to be fixated on speed. Why
>> else buy aero wheels, aero handlebars etc. and measure every bike's
>> weight down to the ounce or gram?
>>
>
>Sure there are people that do that but in my neck of the woods that is a small minority.
>
>Lou

Nothing wrong with people purusuing whatever goals that fit their
fancy.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 23:51:23 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 1:33:03?AM UTC+2, Mark Cleary wrote:

>> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 5:39:45?PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 6/3/2023 2:26 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> > > On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 6:06:37?PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > >> Another climbing comparison test, classic bike vs. modern bike. Bianchi
>> > >> aluminum vs. current Pinarello carbon fiber. 9 speed vs. 12 speed,
>> > >> aluminum vs. CF wheels, cable shifting vs. wireless, wide vs. narrow
>> > >> tires, caliper vs. disc, etc.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> "You've come here, though, for the time difference."
>> > >>
>> > >> https://youtu.be/lawourSeonE?t=922
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> - Frank Krygowski
>> > >
>> > > My answer when someone ask me after a new bike purchase ‘does it make you faster’: does it have to? Discussion closed.
>> > I'm glad to hear that. I don't think I ever bought or built a bike with
>> > the intent to go faster. In general, my objectives have been things like
>> > distance (e.g. for touring), utility (e.g. carrying capacity), off-road
>> > ability (mountain bike), portability (folding bikes) etc. After all, I
>> > don't race, and never did race much.
>> >
>> > However, I'm aware of others who do seem to be fixated on speed. Why
>> > else buy aero wheels, aero handlebars etc. and measure every bike's
>> > weight down to the ounce or gram?
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> I am fixed on the beauty of the bike and how it looks. That is purely subjective and has zero to do with speed or really anything else. To me there is nothing beautiful or elegant about a load touring bike. But if you are touring and seeing the sights and need lots of items they become the beauty of the bike.
>> Deacon mark
>
>Exactly. To me a loaded touring bike is butt ugly, but I can appreciate nice components on a loaded touring bike.
>
>Lou

Beauty is a subjective evaluation. For some, beauty is performance.

[Lou Holtman]

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 9:41:11 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:

> Lot of roadies do seem quite performance oriented certainly at club level
> hence stuff like Strava popularity.

Sure but I know few people that buy a new bike to get significant faster. Most of them because it makes it more pleasant.

>
> More so in my experience than MTBer who are more interested in the ride.

Pfff.. not here.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

A ride should be pleasant, whatever it takes.

Lou

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Nice!

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 05:42:57 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

In my opinion, finding fault with other's decisions and actions is
aberrant when they have no real affect the fault finder. On the other
hand, unsolicited efforts to influence people's decisions and actions
by unaffected individuals is also aberrant.

IOW, minding one's own business is the sweet spot.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I saw that a while ago. Some interesting takeaways:

referring to the build quality of the Bianchi
- "durability was sacrificed on the altar of light weight, apparently Pantani went through 30 frames during the '98 season"
- "the welding on this bike looks like it done by someone who was counting down the minutes until lunch"
Also note the bikes used Time Carbon Fiber forks.

[AMuzi]

Yes that's right.

For others it's 'rider comfort' expressed in heavy fat tires
or even fat tires and very low gearing for riding in mud and
worse.

People like what they like, for their own reasons or for no
reason, and even aesthetically things I find ugly are
someone else's dream,

[Roger Meriman]

Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 9:41:11 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
>> Lot of roadies do seem quite performance oriented certainly at club level
>> hence stuff like Strava popularity.
>
> Sure but I know few people that buy a new bike to get significant faster.
> Most of them because it makes it more pleasant.

I think lots of the time it’s that they want a new bike!

The ones I know who cycle through bikes quickly are the folks who do chain
gangs and the like. This said until recently you’d notice that Richmond
Park which is london roadie central saw lots of bling but rim brakes but
that changed over last few years.

And you’d see more disk equipped road bikes on the commuters and more
utility minded folks.

>>
>> More so in my experience than MTBer who are more interested in the ride.
>
> Pfff.. not here.

Well no but here isn’t representative after all!
>
> Lou
>
Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

On 6/4/2023 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

An application of Colin Abarth Chapman's maxim, "The
properly designed racing car falls apart as it crosses the
finish line first."

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/4/2023 9:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 12:06:37 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> Another climbing comparison test, classic bike vs. modern bike. Bianchi
>> aluminum vs. current Pinarello carbon fiber. 9 speed vs. 12 speed,
>> aluminum vs. CF wheels, cable shifting vs. wireless, wide vs. narrow
>> tires, caliper vs. disc, etc.
>>
>>
>> "You've come here, though, for the time difference."
>>
>> https://youtu.be/lawourSeonE?t=922
>>
>
> I saw that a while ago. Some interesting takeaways:
>
> referring to the build quality of the Bianchi
> - "durability was sacrificed on the altar of light weight, apparently Pantani went through 30 frames during the '98 season"

I caught that too. Getting such light weight on aluminum frames,
especially in those days, meant cutting strength margins down to the
minimum. That's understood.

The main point the comparison demonstrated to me was one long discussed
in a vaguely similar magazine article a few years ago. That had several
young racers do a long climb on an old school racing bike and on a
modern racer. The young guys were astonished by the older bike's lower
stiffness, relatively heavy weight, lack of aero features, paucity of
gear choices, friction shifting, etc. Some expressed fear about having
to move their hands to reach the shifters.

And the lighter modern bikes really were a touch faster up the long
climb. But the time difference was exactly what would be predicted by
the difference in weight. Stiffness, more gears, aero etc. had no
demonstrable effect.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

I mentioned it here before for durability I rather have a 1.3 kg CF frame then a 1.3 kg steel frame.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/3/2023 7:33 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> I am fixed on the beauty of the bike and how it looks. That is purely subjective and has zero to do with speed or really anything else. To me there is nothing beautiful or elegant about a load touring bike. But if you are touring and seeing the sights and need lots of items they become the beauty of the bike.

For beauty in its most abstract sense, I like bikes that are the
absolute simplest. Those would be fixed gear track bikes and antique
penny farthings.

But I appreciate others as well. I remember eating dinner outdoors in an
outdoor plaza in some Italian town years ago. Someone had parked what I
suppose was a "city bike" (?) nearby. Upright handlebars, hub gear,
leather saddle and grips, cream colored paint including large fenders
and chainguard painted to match, etc. It struck me as beautiful. I have
a photo somewhere.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

The boundary between "light" and "stupid light" is different for
different materials.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 6/4/2023 11:20 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

> On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 4:49:08 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 6/4/2023 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 12:06:37 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> Another climbing comparison test, classic bike vs. modern bike. Bianchi
>>>> aluminum vs. current Pinarello carbon fiber. 9 speed vs. 12 speed,
>>>> aluminum vs. CF wheels, cable shifting vs. wireless, wide vs. narrow
>>>> tires, caliper vs. disc, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "You've come here, though, for the time difference."
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/lawourSeonE?t=922
>>>>
>>>
>>> I saw that a while ago. Some interesting takeaways:
>>>
>>> referring to the build quality of the Bianchi
>>> - "durability was sacrificed on the altar of light weight, apparently Pantani went through 30 frames during the '98 season"
>>> - "the welding on this bike looks like it done by someone who was counting down the minutes until lunch"
>>> Also note the bikes used Time Carbon Fiber forks.
>>>
>> An application of Colin Abarth Chapman's maxim, "The
>> properly designed racing car falls apart as it crosses the
>> finish line first."
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> I mentioned it here before for durability I rather have a 1.3 kg CF frame then a 1.3 kg steel frame.
>
> Lou
>

If you're tossing the frame out after each stage and someone
else is buying, you may want a few grams less...

[AMuzi]

The style is known as 'Tipo R' derived from the Italian
military bicycles

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-bersaglieri-italian-army-italy-uniform-uniforms-feathers-in-hats-hat-35907859.html

but now in a wide range of quality, price and finish detail:

https://www.ledueruote.biz/creazioni/restauro-bici-donna-bianchi-tipo-r/

http://www.cicliblume.it/bici/bicicletta-erre-uomo-a-7-velocita/


p.s. Bersaglieri cycling band rides Tipo R:
https://parma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2018/04/26/foto/parma_arrivano_i_bersaglieri_in_bicicletta_-_foto-194832288/1/

[AMuzi]

On 6/4/2023 12:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 6/4/2023 12:20 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 4:49:08 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 6/4/2023 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 12:06:37 PM UTC-4,

And utterly different for a man who needs to be at work at
the same time every morning, weather be damned, versus a man
whose livelihood (and glory!) depends on winning this stage
today, after which the bike goes to recycling.

[Tom Kunich]

The weight of my Tommasini and Moser both frame without fork weights around there. The Aliverti is the old lugged frame with 1" frame tubes and it is considerably heavier. The Fondriest Status X completely assembled with Campy Record group and heavy Campy Calima wheels with new Vittoria 25 mm tires and that heavy steel Scapin fork is only 20.55 lbs with a water bottle cage as well. So, I think that you're somewhat willing to believe that steel is weak when a carbon fiber frame of the same size is probably way stronger (and probably so in order to correct for possible failures.

I believed I showed you the consensus between carbon frame makers that the lifespan of a frame is ten years. If you're happy with that, fine. But a steel frame made correctly with welded joints has a virtually unlimited lifespan and the ride is better than any of the top end carbon fiber bikes I had. Of course, the newest one was 2018. And they definitely improved after that. They stopped making all of the carbon fiber in China with its corresponding piss poor quality control. I absolute could find no fault with the C50 ride but I was nervous about it breaking (probably with very little cause.)

[Roger Meriman]

I’m not in the Carbon market for both cost and durability. Ie I ride off
road so I bike needs to be able to survive impacts. Ie crashes even if
fairly minor ones.

But beyond the 1st generation of Carbon frames, they seem to be lasting,
not seen evidence to suggest that they fail after time if anything they
should outlast other frame materials as they don’t corrode or fatigue over
time, like metals.

They don’t do impacts particularly if in a force they aren’t designed for,
ie frame can snap say, in a crash.

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 15:21:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I absolute could find no fault with the C50 ride but I was
>nervous about it breaking (probably with very little cause.)

Nervous? You posted multiple warning to various forums about the
dangers of carbon fiber bicycles using your Colnago C-40 as an
example. You blamed your concussion on a carbon fiber fork failure.
That sounds like more than "nervous". I really like the way the story
changes with every retelling.

(July 22, 2016)
"Danger From Carbon Fiber Bikes"
<https://www.twospoke.com/threads/danger-from-carbon-fiber-bikes.17594/>
"On the way back to Castro Valley, my friend Tom Kunich (who was also
riding a full carbon fiber Colnago C-40) crashed on the downhill."
(July 10, 2016)
<https://www.cyclingforums.com/threads/danger-from-carbon-fiber-bikes.453355/>
(July 10, 2016)
<https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1073471-danger-carbon-fiber-bikes.html>
(July 10, 2016)
<https://medium.com/@cyclintom/on-dec-18-2009-i-was-riding-my-bicycle-with-a-group-and-we-were-coming-off-of-a-bicycle-trail-9f9d582a9b42>
(Date Unknown)
<https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:ugcPost:6912346811772932096/
"I got a severe concussion in 2010 that led to a type of seizures that
I didn't remember afterwards. This wasn't discovered and treated
properly until 2012 after 4 car wrecks luckily without any injuries."


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 6:21:43 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I believed I showed you the consensus between carbon frame makers that the lifespan of a frame is ten years. If you're happy with that, fine. But a steel frame made correctly with welded joints has a virtually unlimited lifespan and the ride is better than any of the top end carbon fiber bikes I had.

I'm not interested in a carbon fiber bike, and I have several steel frame bikes. But I doubt a current mass
market carbon frame has a lifetime as short as ten years.

And steel frames certainly cannot promise a "virtually unlimited lifespan." I'm the guy whose tandem's
steel forks suddenly failed by fatigue. IIRC Jay and Jobst both had steel frame failures. And I have
no doubt that Andrew can post photos of many such failures.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/4/2023 3:35 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 6/4/2023 11:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/3/2023 7:33 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>>>
>>> I am fixed on the beauty of the bike and how it looks.
>>> That is purely subjective and has zero to do with speed or
>>> really anything else. To me there is nothing beautiful or
>>> elegant about a load touring bike. But if you are touring
>>> and seeing the sights and need lots of items they become
>>> the beauty of the bike.
>>
>> For beauty in its most abstract sense, I like bikes that are
>> the absolute simplest. Those would be fixed gear track bikes
>> and antique penny farthings.
>>
>> But I appreciate others as well. I remember eating dinner
>> outdoors in an outdoor plaza in some Italian town years ago.
>> Someone had parked what I suppose was a "city bike" (?)
>> nearby. Upright handlebars, hub gear, leather saddle and
>> grips, cream colored paint including large fenders and
>> chainguard painted to match, etc. It struck me as beautiful.
>> I have a photo somewhere.
>>
>
> The style is known as 'Tipo R' derived from the Italian military bicycles
>
> https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-bersaglieri-italian-army-italy-uniform-uniforms-feathers-in-hats-hat-35907859.html
>
> but now in a wide range of quality, price and finish detail:
>
> https://www.ledueruote.biz/creazioni/restauro-bici-donna-bianchi-tipo-r/
>
> http://www.cicliblume.it/bici/bicicletta-erre-uomo-a-7-velocita/

Not quite. I found the photo:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16972296@N08/52951742935/in/dateposted-public/

My mistake, the grips were not leather.

I just thought it was a pretty bike.

--
- Frank Krygowski