What's the best patch?
somebody
moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
Thanks!
landotter
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
Use the tube that fits your tire. Usually you need to size up. I use
35mm tubes in 30mm tires--as the tubes are undersized. You get far
fewer flats when you tubes aren't overly stretched.
>
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
>
Glueless sucks. Just pick up a Park or Rema or any patch kit of that
type. If your glue dries out, you can pick up a fresh tube at an auto
parts retailer.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter
> or moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good
> idea to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to
> stretch? I am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type
> patch kit.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the
> Park glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of
> glue.
No!
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
> some secretive person wrote:
>
>> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter
>> or moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good
>> idea to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to
>> stretch? I am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type
>> patch kit.
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html
as usual, you're giving bad advice jobst - you don't let the glue dry
per manufacturer instructions before applying the patch.
will there ever be a day when you actually accept that other people may
actually know more about their own business than you do? that they've
bothered to study and test and research?
>
>> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the
>> Park glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of
>> glue.
>
> No!
no? you can't get a traditional patch right so how could you get a
glueless one right?
jim beam
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider?
rema.
> Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch?
just use the right size tube. stretching patches aren't a problem if
they're affixed per manufacturer instruction.
> I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
>
> Are any of the glueless patches any good?
they seem to work fine if you ensure the mold release is properly
removed from the tube first. again, refer to manufacturer instruction.
Neal
"jim beam" <retard...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:avOdnWGFBLmAXUXU...@speakeasy.net...
Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch. That's
never worked for me.
Peter Cole
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
That's a good approach. If you flat use the spare, patch at home. The
patch kit will be for those times you didn't find the cause and quickly
reflat the new tube.
Tubes that are too small for the tire are a bear to patch & ride
immediately, the stretching lifts the uncured glue. Stay with tubes
rated for the tire, if in doubt use the larger rather than smaller size.
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
Glueless patches sometimes won't hold with high tire pressures. They
work much better with 30 psi MTB tires than 120 psi road tires. I have
had them save my bacon at least once when my glue had dried in the tube.
I pumped the tire up to a modest (~70 psi) and rode carefully home. I
think they're worth carrying as a backup for your backup, to be used
only in emergencies, when you'd otherwise be forced to stuff grass or
fill the tube with water. They can ruin the tube, since they're nearly
impossible to get off cleanly and always seem to leak eventually, even
at MTB pressures.
jim beam
no, and per my first paragraph, this is what i'm saying:
http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg
jim beam
> somebody wrote:
>> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
>> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
>> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
>> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
>
> That's a good approach. If you flat use the spare, patch at home. The
> patch kit will be for those times you didn't find the cause and quickly
> reflat the new tube.
>
> Tubes that are too small for the tire are a bear to patch & ride
> immediately, the stretching lifts the uncured glue.
jobstian myth. i always patch and ride - i don't even carry a tube. i
can't recall the last time i ever had a problem with a patch unless it
was one of those cheapo tubes with a big ridge seam making it impossible
to get a close contact with the patch.
http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg works every time.
> Stay with tubes
> rated for the tire, if in doubt use the larger rather than smaller size.
>
>> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
>> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
>
> Glueless patches sometimes won't hold with high tire pressures. They
> work much better with 30 psi MTB tires than 120 psi road tires. I have
> had them save my bacon at least once when my glue had dried in the tube.
> I pumped the tire up to a modest (~70 psi) and rode carefully home. I
> think they're worth carrying as a backup for your backup, to be used
> only in emergencies, when you'd otherwise be forced to stuff grass or
> fill the tube with water. They can ruin the tube, since they're nearly
> impossible to get off cleanly and always seem to leak eventually, even
> at MTB pressures.
if you clean the tube properly, per manufacturer instruction, they bond
just fine. the adhesive they use is quite advanced when sticking to
rubber, not crud or mold release wax.
phs...@gmail.com
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
The best patches I have tried are Rema Tip Top F0 patches. They are
sold as patches alone or as patch kits in small boxes called TT01.
Such a box only cost a couple of euro's/dollars so buy several of
them; one box for the road and one or more at your home. I like the F0
patches because they are small and supple unlike the big thick and
hard patches I have tried from other brands.
A good patching strategy for many commuters is to carry one or two
spare tubes in zip-locks and replace tubes when they are punctured
since this is the fastest thing to do. It is also hard to patch tubes
on the road when it is raining or very cold. One can then patch the
punctured tubes in the comfort of ones home when one feels like doing
so. I tend to patch my tubes in batches when I have accumulated
enough.
I can recommend reading this:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html
My patching technique improved a lot after I read the above on _why_
(and how) one should apply sandpaper to the tubes.
Regarding using thicker inner tubes, then I wouldn't bother. I have
never experienced any stretching problems with Rema F0 patches.
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
I carry a single glueless Park Tool patch in my regular patch kit.
Never used it, but it may come in handy one day. My LBS warned me that
they could give problems with high pressure tires and tubes before I
bought it.
Buy several TT01 patch kits, and if you patch at home then you don't
need to break the seal on glue tube in the patch kit you carry on your
bike, or you can carry two glue tubes in you patch kit.
--
Regards
Dan O
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider?
I haven't the experience or expertise of others here yet (so all below
FWIW), but Rema seems to be something like the Velox of inner-tube
patches.
> Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
>
I don't like to use an oversize tube. I understand what you're saying
about stretch, but a tube that's too big can be harder to get cleanly
into the tire without any folding (esp. on a muddy roadside with cold
fingers), and is easier to pinch while mounting the tire.
Riding primarily on 28 mm tires, I would carry one spare ~28 mm tube,
and one spare ~23 mm tube (plus patch kit) in a big messenger bag.
The 23 fit the tires on my go-fast bike, and could also be used as an
emergency (second) spare for the 28 mm tires on my commuter.
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
>
I have one of those little Park tool kits that included some glueless
patches. The first time I used one I was amazed at how quick and easy
it was, and it did get me home. I don't remember how long I rode it
that way (probably not long), but when I next had the tube out I was
able to peel the glueless patch right off, leaving a gooey mess.
The second time I tried a glueless patch, it didn't hold. I don't
even mess them now, but still carry one or two in that little tool
kit, anyway (heck, they don't weigh nothin' or take up any space, and
if the glue in my patch kit(s) ever does dry out... ;-)
Michael Press
somebody <som...@somewhere.com> wrote:
Carry spare tubes, and patch at home.
Rema patches, auto store glue, 80 grit emory cloth.
The road patch kit has a small tube of glue. Be sure
that the solvent has not evaporated from the tube,
as it can even sealed. Leaks through the crimp.
--
Michael Press
jim beam
> phs...@gmail.com considered Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) the
> bike, and use that to replace the one I keep in the toolkit at home
> when the home kit either runs out or dries out.
> Once opened, I don't replace rubber solution into the on-bike kit, but
> move it into the home toolkit and replace it with a new one.
> If I find a dried out tube of solution, I'd rather it was at home,
> where I'm not stranded, than out on the road, so that is always a new
> sealed tube.
> That way, if I do need it on the road, I know it's a fresh one.
>
> I carry spare inner tubes, and normally just swap out a punctured one,
> but the repair kit is a back-up - I can't remember the last time I
> used it on the road.
> That means that by repairing at home, I keep the stock of solution
> turning over so it's always fresh stuff on the bike, and I do my
> repairs in comfort and without rushing.
from what i can see on close inspection, glue tubes only seem to dry out
when they get rattled about under the seat, and the aluminum wears
through at pinpoints. the best way to avoid this is to keep the tube in
a small polythene baggie, or better yet, a length of old inner tube
glued at one end and folded at the other. this prevents rubbing, and
thus, prevents the tube pinpointing.
yes, i practice what i preach and have yet to have an opened tube dry
when kept in this way.
jim beam
leaking through the crimp is jobstian myth. crimps are proven in
countless other industries and uses and have worked perfectly for over
100 years - absolutely no reason it should bizarrely not work for bikes
unless there is another factor at work. and there is - see previous
message to phil lee.
Peter Cole
> I always keep the newest tube of rubber solution in the kit on the
> bike, and use that to replace the one I keep in the toolkit at home
> when the home kit either runs out or dries out.
> Once opened, I don't replace rubber solution into the on-bike kit, but
> move it into the home toolkit and replace it with a new one.
> If I find a dried out tube of solution, I'd rather it was at home,
> where I'm not stranded, than out on the road, so that is always a new
> sealed tube.
> That way, if I do need it on the road, I know it's a fresh one.
Like others, I've opened a fresh tube of cement & found it dry.
Martin Riddle
"Phil W Lee" <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote in message
news:8j3it4d3mkqvc003b...@4ax.com...
> phs...@gmail.com considered Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) the
> perfect time to write:
>
> I always keep the newest tube of rubber solution in the kit on the
> bike, and use that to replace the one I keep in the toolkit at home
> when the home kit either runs out or dries out.
> Once opened, I don't replace rubber solution into the on-bike kit, but
> move it into the home toolkit and replace it with a new one.
> If I find a dried out tube of solution, I'd rather it was at home,
> where I'm not stranded, than out on the road, so that is always a new
> sealed tube.
> That way, if I do need it on the road, I know it's a fresh one.
I usually squeeze out the air after I use the tube and that seems to
help keep the glue fresh from year to year.
I also have some success in using a bottle of Elmers rubber cement for
patching and refilling
the glue tube with a syringe (marine fiber glass repair isle).
I've also tried tube to tube transfer with larger tubes to smaller, this
works just as well.
Cheers
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
...
>> I always keep the newest tube of rubber solution in the kit on the
>> bike, and use that to replace the one I keep in the toolkit at home
>> when the home kit either runs out or dries out.
>> Once opened, I don't replace rubber solution into the on-bike kit,
>> but move it into the home toolkit and replace it with a new one.
>> If I find a dried out tube of solution, I'd rather it was at home,
>> where I'm not stranded, than out on the road, so that is always a
>> new sealed tube. That way, if I do need it on the road, I know
>> it's a fresh one.
> I usually squeeze out the air after I use the tube and that seems to
> help keep the glue fresh from year to year. I also have some
> success in using a bottle of Elmer's rubber cement for patching and
> refilling the glue tube with a syringe (marine fiber glass repair
> isle). I've also tried tube to tube transfer with larger tubes to
> smaller, this works just as well.
Better yet, epoxy two tube caps back-to-back, drill a hole through,
and use this for tube-to-tube transfers. I did this for touring tooth
paste tubes to refill gratis mini demo give away tubes from a large
family size tube. Those tiny tubes are great for bicycle touring but
hard to find, so I reuse them.
Squeezing the tube of glue when vertical with fluid just level with
the open end (up) is a good way to replace the cap. Just the same, as
others have mentioned, they have opened new tubes (with the metal tube
closure not yet punctured) to find them dry, or at least with the
contents no longer fluid, indicating the crimp must be the leak.
I believe that closure of the factory filled tube, standing on its
head, is made with no glue in the crimp zone, something that could
retard evaporation. In any event, I believe it best to store bicycle
tire glue (the small tubes) cap end up so the crimp is under water so
to speak. I believe unused tubes that have dried out have become so
by experiencing large temperature changes and pumped themselves dry
through a dry crimp.
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
don't you think it strange that it can sit on the shelf of a store for
months, even years, and be perfect every single time, yet as soon as you
rattle it around in the bag under your saddle for a few weeks, suddenly
it's dry? ever wondered why that might be?
Henry
> if you clean the tube properly, per manufacturer instruction, they bond
> just fine. the adhesive they use is quite advanced when sticking to
> rubber, not crud or mold release wax.
jim beam
jobst, crimps are tight. every can of food you buy for instance -
that's crimped. you know, the one you can keep in the earthquake
emergency kit for years. and it's not full of glue.
just buy a decent magnifier, examine your "dry" tube under it, and check
out the holes that have worn through the thin aluminum. [while you're
about it, maybe you can bother to examine the fatigue fracture surfaces
on some broken spokes and witness that fatigue does not initiate where
there may be residual stress.]
oh, and one last thing - by definition, solvent diffuses even through
"solid" glue, so even a "wet" crimp can't stop it drying out.
hth.
jim beam
most tubes have a coating of wax, powder, or whatever that's
a. left over from manufacture.
b. helps ensure the tube doesn't stick to the tire in use.
for an airtight tube, it's a good thing. for a punctured tube, it needs
to be removed before patch glue adheres properly. hence the small piece
of abrasive you get in quality patch kits.
some people go for a solvent solution to this removal, but abrasion
helps remove surface oxides too, thus better exposing fresh rubber for
bonding than a solvent can.
datakoll
carry two fresh tubes
http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=26664&eid=355
or the plain thornproof.
leave patches at home.
are the 'expensive' euro ovals in foil better. YES !
datakoll
And a Brandtism …
Flexing of rolling bias ply tires also loosens patches. Laying a
standard 3.5x2 inch paper business card between tire and tube will
show how severe this action is. After a hundred miles or so, the card
will have been shredded into millimeter size confetti.
Although talcum powder on the outside of tubes does nothing useful,
A tube can be folded into as small a package as when it was new and
practically airless, by sucking the air out while using the finger
opposite the stem to prevent re-inflation. This is not done by
inhaling but by puckering the cheeks. Although the powders inside
tubes are not poisonous in the mouth, they are not good for the lungs,
but then that's obvious.
Their black center section exudes a brown gas that discolors light
colored tire casings in daylight.
Diurinal ? it psychoactive or damaging genetically according to the
state ?
eeyahahahhawhowhowho
datakoll
senesence could read if recondite: "Although talcum on the outside of
tires does....
Stephen Bauman
> Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch.
> That's never worked for me.
It works for me almost every time.
It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's found. My
technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center the hole side-to-
side and then place the flattened tube around the patch kit box. The Rema
patch kit box label is red and white. I place the puncture on the red-
white boundary. So the puncture is in the center of the tube on top of
the red-white boundary. I'll hold the tube in place with a clothes pin.
If the puncture is really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the sandpaper
to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting damage on the
tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded it's time to apply the
cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called glue.
I put a dab of the solution but not on the puncture. I then spread
solution with my clean pinky into a thin layer over a wide area that
covers the puncture and the patch area. I then wait for the solution to
dry completely. I do not blow on the solution to make it dry because
moisture will neutralize it. I'm patient and have learned no to use too
much solution.
I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
all directions.
Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create a
slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of the slit,
I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut the cellophane
into two halves. I roll each half off from the inside of the patch to the
edge. The idea in all of this is not to pull up the edge of the patch.
I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where there I
spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the patch. The
vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It liquifies the top layer of
rubber on the tube. That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to
be removed with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as
thin as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force the
liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry into
rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts a layer of
gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that exposed layer of
liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.
The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
surfaces and wait for them to dry.
The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's why
an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air will make it
evaporate. Heat will make it evaporate. That's why the small tubes don't
last long. I get a new tube every few months. The patches take longer to
degrade but they will after a few years.
Round Rema patches come in two diameters: 25mm (F1) and 16mm (F0).
Unfortunately, most of the kits contain only the larger patch. This patch
is wider than the width of a narrow tube folded flat on that patch kit
box. If the flattened tube width is narrower than the patch diameter,
then parts of the patch will be loose. I buy both sizes in boxes of 100
patches.
I'm a volunteer mechanic in about a half dozen rides each year. The
plethora of tube sizes combined with the propensity of riders to get
flats makes carrying a stash of new tubes impractical. I'll exchange a
patched tube for a punctured one, if it's a size I have. Otherwise, I'll
patch it on the spot. It's ready to ride with the procedure I outlined.
It takes longer to describe it than to do it.
Steve
Dan O
Great post! (Between this and Peter's excellent post in a sort of OT
thread, a worthwhile weekend of Usenet.) Thanks!
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch.
>> That's never worked for me.
> It works for me almost every time.
> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center
> the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube around the
> patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and white. I
> place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the puncture is
> in the center of the tube on top of the red-white boundary. I'll
> hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the puncture is
> really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
sand the tube to a dull finish.
> Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the
> sandpaper to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting
> damage on the tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded
> it's time to apply the cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called
> glue.
What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
alternative abrader to sand paper.
> I put a dab of the solution but not on the puncture. I then spread
> solution with my clean pinky into a thin layer over a wide area that
> covers the puncture and the patch area. I then wait for the
> solution to dry completely. I do not blow on the solution to make
> it dry because moisture will neutralize it. I'm patient and have
> learned not to use too much solution.
How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to
the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as
soon as they reach the surface.
> I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
> take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
> the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
> all directions.
I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,
something on which other compression means don't improve. I don't
understand what you are dispersing from the center. This is much like
applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.
> Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create
> a slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of
> the slit, I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut
> the cellophane into two halves. I roll each half off from the
> inside of the patch to the edge. The idea in all of this is not to
> pull up the edge of the patch.
The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite
sides of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This will
separate and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled of from the
center to the edge. The REMA made patches this way is because pulling
a cellophane cover off from the edge will peel the patch off the tube.
> I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where
> there I spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the
> patch. The vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It
> liquefies the top layer of rubber on the tube.
You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement onto a
tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have experimental
evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA patch cement. In
contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and are therefore best
patched with a piece of another latex tube remnant.
> That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to be removed
> with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as thin
> as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
> applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force
> the liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry
> into rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts
> a layer of gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that
> exposed layer of liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.
I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you
don't put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will
not get good adhesion.
> The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
> is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
> patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
> the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
> surfaces and wait for them to dry.
That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
vulcanizing solution on it. It is a material that bonds with slightly
moist patch glue and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
through the patch. That is why patches are only secure after a
substantial cure time, about three or four hours. I don't know other
than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over
night.
> The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's
> why an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air
> will make it evaporate. Heat will make it evaporate. That's why
> the small tubes don't last long. I get a new tube every few months.
> The patches take longer to degrade but they will after a few years.
To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have no
problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in my
patch kit.
> Round Rema patches come in two diameters: 25mm (F1) and 16mm (F0).
> Unfortunately, most of the kits contain only the larger patch. This
> patch is wider than the width of a narrow tube folded flat on that
> patch kit box. If the flattened tube width is narrower than the
> patch diameter, then parts of the patch will be loose. I buy both
> sizes in boxes of 100 patches.
I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are here:
> I'm a volunteer mechanic in about a half dozen rides each year. The
> plethora of tube sizes combined with the propensity of riders to get
> flats makes carrying a stash of new tubes impractical. I'll
> exchange a patched tube for a punctured one, if it's a size I have.
> Otherwise, I'll patch it on the spot. It's ready to ride with the
> procedure I outlined. It takes longer to describe it than to do it.
That may be what you think, but I suggest you find a tube that was
ridden immediately after patching and see whether the patch lies flat
on the surface of the deflated tube. I am sure you will find the
patch is domed and, when cut in half with shears, reveals that it is
adhering only at its periphery with talcum powder under the domed
center. This is condition often becomes a slow leak.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html
Jobst Brandt
RS
som...@somewhere.com says...
>
>
>What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
>moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
>to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
>am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
>
>glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
>
Carry an extra tube and just switch tubes on the road if you get a flat. Use
Rema when you get home for a permanent fix so the punctured tube can be
used indefinitely until you've patched it a bunch of times. My experience
with the glueless Park patches is that they'll hold air fine for a day or two,
they're meant to get you home in good shape. And then use a real patch
like a Rema to permanently fix the flat.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Are you saying not to let the glue dry before applying the patch.
>> That's never worked for me.
> It works for me almost every time.
> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center
> the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube around the
> patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and white. I
> place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the puncture is
> in the center of the tube on top of the red-white boundary. I'll
> hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the puncture is
> really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
sand the tube to a dull finish.
> Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the
> sandpaper to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting
> damage on the tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded
> it's time to apply the cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called
> glue.
What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
alternative abrader to sand paper.
> I put a dab of the solution but not on the puncture. I then spread
> solution with my clean pinky into a thin layer over a wide area that
> covers the puncture and the patch area. I then wait for the
> solution to dry completely. I do not blow on the solution to make
> it dry because moisture will neutralize it. I'm patient and have
> learned not to use too much solution.
How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to
the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as
soon as they reach the surface.
> I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
> take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
> the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
> all directions.
I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,
something on which other compression means don't improve. I don't
understand what you are dispersing from the center. This is much like
applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.
> Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create
> a slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of
> the slit, I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut
> the cellophane into two halves. I roll each half off from the
> inside of the patch to the edge. The idea in all of this is not to
> pull up the edge of the patch.
The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite
sides of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This will
separate and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled off from the
center to the edge. REMA made patches with this perforation across
the center to simplify pulling off cellophane from the center, because
pulling it off from the edge will peel the patch from the tube.
> I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where
> there I spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the
> patch. The vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It
> liquefies the top layer of rubber on the tube.
You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement onto a
tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have experimental
evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA patch cement. In
contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and are therefore best
patched with a piece of another latex tube remnant.
> That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to be removed
> with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as thin
> as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
> applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force
> the liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry
> into rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts
> a layer of gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that
> exposed layer of liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.
I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you
don't put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will
not get good adhesion.
> The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
> is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
> patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
> the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
> surfaces and wait for them to dry.
That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
vulcanizing solution on it. It is a material that bonds with slightly
moist patch glue and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
through the patch. That is why patches are only secure after a
substantial cure time, about three or four hours. I don't know other
than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over
night.
> The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's
> why an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air
> will make it evaporate. Heat will make it evaporate. That's why
> the small tubes don't last long. I get a new tube every few months.
> The patches take longer to degrade but they will after a few years.
To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have no
problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in my
patch kit.
> Round Rema patches come in two diameters: 25mm (F1) and 16mm (F0).
> Unfortunately, most of the kits contain only the larger patch. This
> patch is wider than the width of a narrow tube folded flat on that
> patch kit box. If the flattened tube width is narrower than the
> patch diameter, then parts of the patch will be loose. I buy both
> sizes in boxes of 100 patches.
I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are here:
> I'm a volunteer mechanic in about a half dozen rides each year. The
> plethora of tube sizes combined with the propensity of riders to get
> flats makes carrying a stash of new tubes impractical. I'll
> exchange a patched tube for a punctured one, if it's a size I have.
> Otherwise, I'll patch it on the spot. It's ready to ride with the
> procedure I outlined. It takes longer to describe it than to do it.
That may be what you think, but I suggest you find a tube that was
Tom Sherman
> Stephen Bauman wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the
>> sandpaper to a rasp because I can apply pressure without inflicting
>> damage on the tube. When the tube is has been thoroughly sanded
>> it's time to apply the cold vulcanizing solution erroneously called
>> glue.
>
> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
> the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
The thumbnail sized rasp that comes in cheap patch kits, e.g.
<http://www.travelproducts.com/store/bike.htm>.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> [...]
>>> Next, I thoroughly clean the tube with sandpaper. I prefer the
>>> sandpaper to a rasp because I can apply pressure without
>>> inflicting damage on the tube. When the tube is has been
>>> thoroughly sanded it's time to apply the cold vulcanizing solution
>>> erroneously called glue.
>> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause.
>> On the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
>> alternative abrader to sand paper. [...]
> The thumbnail sized rasp that comes in cheap patch kits, e.g.
http://www.travelproducts.com/store/bike.htm
Those are called a cheese graters, but some people in the business
don't understand the process of patching a tubes. They, as the REMA
representative at InterBike, believe you need to roughen the surface
so the patch can adhere... a classic bit of lore in tire patching. Of
course he was shocked when he handed me his demonstration patched tube
from which I handed him the patch that I readily pulled off with thumb
and forefinger.
Those are the beliefs at patch companies, even (REMA), that has the
all-time best patches. Considering cheese graters to roughen tubes
and believing patches are immediately and permanently in place if done
as described in their handout, is folly. I'm sure the ancients, from
whom these folks inherited the specifications for patches, understood
the process, but since cars are tubeless, it's only bicycle tubes for
which skilled chemists and engineers seem to be too expensive. Toys!
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
jeepers fucking creepers - that is /SOOOO/ incredibly wrong. have you
/ever/ bothered to read the instructions???
http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg
there you go jobst.
now, as for the science, increased air flow /does/ increase evaporation
rate. boundary layers. just because you've never bothered to learn
about this stuff, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. besides, how you
managed to reach adulthood without figuring out that a wet body in the
wind feels colder than a wet body in still air just blows my mind - it's
exactly the same effect and you'd have to be some kind of cretin to not
learn that lesson of general evaporation principle.
>
>> I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
>> take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
>> the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
>> all directions.
>
> I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,
it is /supposed/ to be "dry".
http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg
> something on which other compression means don't improve.
jobst, you need compression to ensure the prepared glued surface and the
prepared patch surface become intimate. that's how the bonding process
works!
> I don't
> understand what you are dispersing from the center.
how did you ever get that old without learning anything jobst??? you're
dispersing air. have you never stuck film to glass? and watched
bubbles migrate as you squeeze them out?
> This is much like
> applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.
no it isn't.
>
>> Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create
>> a slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of
>> the slit, I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut
>> the cellophane into two halves. I roll each half off from the
>> inside of the patch to the edge. The idea in all of this is not to
>> pull up the edge of the patch.
>
> The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite
> sides of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This will
> separate and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled of from the
> center to the edge. The REMA made patches this way is because pulling
> a cellophane cover off from the edge will peel the patch off the tube.
why freakin bother??? just apply the patch, then when you're done
pressing it onto the tube in the manufacturer prescribed fashion, it
just pulls off. duh.
>
>> I'll take some talc and spread it on the tube in the areas where
>> there I spread vulcanizing solution that was not covered by the
>> patch. The vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It
>> liquefies the top layer of rubber on the tube.
>
> You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement onto a
> tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have experimental
> evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA patch cement. In
> contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and are therefore best
> patched with a piece of another latex tube remnant.
other than one tube containing carbon black and the other not, how is
the molecular bond between the two rubber types different jobst? and
how does the solvent work with the one you think dissolves?
>
>> That's why the top layer of rubber on the tube has to be removed
>> with the sandpaper. That's why you want that liquid layer as thin
>> as possible which is why you wait for the solution to dry before
>> applying the patch. It's also why you burnish the patch on to force
>> the liquid layers of the patch and the tube to become one and to dry
>> into rubber. The talc neutralizes the vulcanizing solution or puts
>> a layer of gunk on top of it - take your pick. It prevents that
>> exposed layer of liquid rubber form adhering with the tire.
>
> I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
> butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
> being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you
> don't put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will
> not get good adhesion.
http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg
read and learn.
>
>> The patch already has a layer of vulcanizing solution on it. That layer
>> is protected by the foil. If you want to use a piece of tube instead of a
>> patch, then you must prepare tube patch the same way as you have prepared
>> the tube. You've got to apply the vulcanizing solution to both the
>> surfaces and wait for them to dry.
>
> That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
> vulcanizing solution on it.
correct.
> It is a material that bonds with slightly
> moist patch glue
incorrect - it shouldn't be "moist" jobst, simply fresh. it's a contact
adhesive. that's how contact adhesive work.
> and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
> through the patch.
see above.
> That is why patches are only secure after a
> substantial cure time, about three or four hours.
no, following manufacturer instruction, they're secure immediately.
that's why you can pump and ride immediately.
> I don't know other
> than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over
> night.
that's because you're not doing it right. how old are you and how can
you fail to comprehend something as simple as this?
http://i39.tinypic.com/29z8v0w.jpg
no, it's a condition of [prematurely] putting the patch onto still
"moist" glue!
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/patching.html
it never ceases to amaze that someone so ignorant would want to air that
affliction in public so extensively. jobst, your fundamental
misconceptions and inability to learn is quite incredible.
Stephen Bauman
>
> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I sand
> the tube to a dull finish.
>
Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually occurs
between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and the time I try
to apply the patch.
> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
> the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
> alternative abrader to sand paper.
>
Other people have already replied. Using the "rasp" or "cheese grater"
requires special care for the paper thin latex tubes in sewups. I find
sandpaper is safer. Some of the old timers (ca. 1930's riders) considered
sandpaper an abomination.
>
> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry. Besides,
> blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also won't
> accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to the
> surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as soon
> as they reach the surface.
>
Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait until
a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on the tube.
Regarding moisture and the vulcanizing solution. The solution is clear,
when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it cloudy. This
indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of the moisture in the
breath has been trapped and is probably in contact with the tube. That's
not what I want.
>
> I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,
> something on which other compression means don't improve. I don't
> understand what you are dispersing from the center. This is much like
> applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.
>
If your patches take a day or so to "cure", then thumb pressure alone is
probably not "adequate".
Item #7 on the page previous to the link you provided:
http://tinyurl.com/cjya34
describes the Rema stitcher for applying patches. The description reads:
"By rolling the corrugated wheel back and forth over the newly applied
patch, a tight seal around the edges of the patch is encouraged."
I'm old school = tight. I find the plastic Rema kit with rounded edges
works fine. I'm working from the center to the sides to avoid
accidentally pulling up the patch form the sides. I'm also insuring that
the center of the patch gets a double dose to adhere properly.
This is not a contact phenomenon like self adhesive tape or a modern
postage stamp. The clue that it isn't is that both sides have to be
treated.
>
> The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite sides
> of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This will separate
> and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled off from the center to
> the edge. REMA made patches with this perforation across the center to
> simplify pulling off cellophane from the center, because pulling it off
> from the edge will peel the patch from the tube.
>
I think we are saying the same thing.
>
> You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement onto a
> tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have experimental
> evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA patch cement. In
> contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and are therefore best
> patched with a piece of another latex tube remnant.
>
Butyl rubber is colorless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_rubber
The Rema vulcanizing solution does not dissolve the pigment only the
butyl rubber.
>
> I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
> butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
> being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you don't
> put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will not get
> good adhesion.
>
Evaporation is a surface phenomenon. If you have a greater volume of
vulcanizing solution spread over the same area as a thin layer, then it
will take longer to dry. It may look dry because it evaporates from the
air down to the tube. Thus, a "too thick" layer may look dry but will
still be tacky at the tube - where it counts.
>
> That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
> vulcanizing solution on it. It is a material that bonds with slightly
> moist patch glue and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
> through the patch. That is why patches are only secure after a
> substantial cure time, about three or four hours. I don't know other
> than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over night.
>
There are some old school riders who are so cheap that they refuse to
waste a quarter on a patch. They cut up old tubes instead. These old
tubes need a separate treatment with vulcanizing solution before applying
them to the tube. I though I made the distinction between using cut up
old tubes and ready made patches clear. Sorry, for any misunderstanding.
>
> To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have no
> problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in my
> patch kit.
>
Again look at the link you provided. Surface freight only for vulcanizing
solution. The stuff is made of volatile petroleum distillates - i.e.
flammable. Next time you fly, ask the airline whether you can take those
tubes with you. There are probably limitations on the amount you can
take. One or two tubes may fall within the guidelines. A single 8 oz can
does not.
>
> I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cjya34
>
Actually, it's bike tools etc. that has the wrong dimension for F0
patches.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL308I04-Rema+F0-P+16Mm+Round
+Patches.aspx
You can verify this by taking a ruler and measuring the patch.
Steve
Nick L Plate
> I take the patch and apply it with the center over the puncture. Then I
> take another Rema patch kit box and use it as a burnishing tool to press
> the patch on tube. I make certain to work from the inside to the edge in
> all directions.
>
> Next it's time to remove the cellophane. I fold the patch to create a
> slit in the cellophane. Then holding the patch on both sides of the slit,
> I spread the tube apart. The slit should expand to cut the cellophane
> into two halves. I roll each half off from the inside of the patch to the
> edge. The idea in all of this is not to pull up the edge of the patch.
>
I found the Rema worked well without abrading the tube. Some
recommend cleaning with spirit first. I burnish until the plastic/
paper breaks off. I get the occasional peeler on testing, but not
when I've cleaned the tyre and tube with washing up detergent.
TJ
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
> Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually
> occurs between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and
> the time I try to apply the patch.
>> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause.
>> On the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
>> alternative abrader to sand paper.
> Other people have already replied. Using the "rasp" or "cheese
> grater" requires special care for the paper thin latex tubes in
> sewups. I find sandpaper is safer. Some of the old timers (ca.
> 1930's riders) considered sandpaper an abomination.
As I said, latex tubes are best patched with remnants of no longer
serviceable latex tubes from which suitable rounded shapes can be cut
with scissors. A semi rigid and many times thicker REMA patch is a
lump on the tube that in light weight tubular tires could be felt when
rolling on smooth roads.
>> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
>> Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
>> won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate
>> to the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding
>> atmosphere as soon as they reach the surface.
> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait
> until a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on
> the tube.
As I mentioned, and you chose to omit in quotes, I spoke with the REMA
patch representative and showed him ho the instructions to completely
dry the glue was no means of making patches adhere well enough to be
used immediately.
> Regarding moisture and the vulcanizing solution. The solution is
> clear, when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it cloudy.
> This indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of the
> moisture in the breath has been trapped and is probably in contact
> with the tube. That's not what I want.
I think you'll see that haze evaporate quickly if you wait for the
adhesive to dry, drying that is not to be taken to the point that REMA
instructions suggest. The patched tube that I had in my shoulder bag
could not be removed as the REMA man claimed. He tried his "usual"
method of poking through the patch and lifting it. All this produced
was hole in the patch. He could not remove the patch.
In contrast, I pulled his "perfectly applied patch off with thumb and
forefinger without effort.
I could not see in his face whether this left any new information in
his thinking about patches, even though I told him of the method that
makes patches removable. Warm a frying pan and press the tube against
its surface with the thumb until it becomes too hot to hold with the
thumb. Patches peel off fairly well with that method.
>> I think thumb pressure is adequate, if your glue is not too dry,
>> something on which other compression means don't improve. I don't
>> understand what you are dispersing from the center. This is much like
>> applying self adhesive tape or a modern postage stamp.
> If your patches take a day or so to "cure", then thumb pressure alone is
> probably not "adequate".
Hold it! Let's go back a step. A patch placed by the REMA method is
easily pulled from a patched tube. It even comes off if you try to
pull the cellophane off from one corner of the cellophane, the reason
why REMA ancients gave it a perforated parting line, being aware that
patches take time to become usable.
> Item #7 on the page previous to the link you provided:
> describes the Rema stitcher for applying patches. The description
> reads: "By rolling the corrugated wheel back and forth over the
> newly applied patch, a tight seal around the edges of the patch is
> encouraged."
I think I have not been clear enough in my description of patch
adhesion and failure. The REMA instructions are wrong and misleading.
> I'm old school = tight. I find the plastic Rema kit with rounded
> edges works fine. I'm working from the center to the sides to avoid
> accidentally pulling up the patch form the sides. I'm also insuring
> that the center of the patch gets a double dose to adhere properly.
> This is not a contact phenomenon like self adhesive tape or a modern
> postage stamp. The clue that it isn't is that both sides have to be
> treated.
I don't know how you treat both sides of a REMA patch to make it
stick. Postage stamps adhere to envelops by pressing then into place
with thumb or finger pressure. In contrast REMA patches must cure
after placement or they can be pulled off or separate in use.
>> The way to do this more easily is to place both thumbs on opposite
>> sides of the cellophane perforation and stretch the patch. This
>> will separate and curl the cellophane so that it can be pulled off
>> from the center to the edge. REMA made patches with this
>> perforation across the center to simplify pulling off cellophane
>> from the center, because pulling it off from the edge will peel the
>> patch from the tube.
> I think we are saying the same thing.
Well, if the patch is attached permanently by pressing it into place,
then it cannot be pulled of by lifting the celophane... but it can,
and with the massage and air pressure it gets if used when fresh, can
cause the patch to lift as I described (but you omitted in this
response).
>> You'll have to show me a black finger from wiping rubber cement
>> onto a tube that it has dissolved. I don't think you have
>> experimental evidence that butyl rubber tubes dissolve in REMA
>> patch cement. In contrast, latex tubes dissolve in it readily, and
>> are therefore best patched with a piece of another latex tube
>> remnant.
> Butyl rubber is colorless.
All my inner tubes are black and have mold ridges on their exterior.
I have not experienced any dissolving of tubes by REMA patch glue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_rubber
> The Rema vulcanizing solution does not dissolve the pigment only the
> butyl rubber.
They are one and the same. The Wiki article is a lot of chemical
jargon in spite of which I have never seen a butyl rubber inner tube
that wasn't black and which was soluble in patch glue.
In contrast, latex tubes are so affected by REMA glue that they
distort and curl, making inner tube replacement in a tubular tire a
less than obvious procedure. To do that the tubular tire stitching is
opened at the stem for about two inches, the old tube cut and pulled
out trailing a cord by which a new and cut tube is pulled in. The
ends of the new tube are overlapped about a half inch and thick rubber
cement spread in the interface with a toothpick and pressed together.
I found Pastali rim cement best for this operation and latex being
highly permeable to the volatiles, quickly becomes a permanent
inseparable bond.
>> I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen
>> a butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA
>> glue, it being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course
>> if you don't put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky,
>> you will not get good adhesion.
> Evaporation is a surface phenomenon. If you have a greater volume
> of vulcanizing solution spread over the same area as a thin layer,
> then it will take longer to dry. It may look dry because it
> evaporates from the air down to the tube. Thus, a "too thick" layer
> may look dry but will still be tacky at the tube - where it counts.
As I said, it evaporates through the patch and makes a permanent bond
in time. My demonstration for the REMA man may not have convinced
him, nor you, that patches need curing time and the dryness of the
adhesive is only necessarily at the shiny tacky state where the patch
can no longer slide.
>> That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
>> vulcanizing solution on it. It is a material that bonds with
>> slightly moist patch glue and allows remaining volatile solvents to
>> escape through the patch. That is why patches are only secure
>> after a substantial cure time, about three or four hours. I don't
>> know other than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch
>> cure over night.
> There are some old school riders who are so cheap that they refuse
> to waste a quarter on a patch. They cut up old tubes instead.
> These old tubes need a separate treatment with vulcanizing solution
> before applying them to the tube. I though I made the distinction
> between using cut up old tubes and ready made patches clear. Sorry,
> for any misunderstanding.
I've seen that routine and found that butyl rubber is impermeable to
tire patch glue volatile component, requiring the glue to be dry on
patch and tube before placing the patch... but they don't adhere well
in use, the glue being either too dry or too wet (locally). That's
why the method is generally not used and that is why we have REMA
patches.
>> To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have
>> no problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in
>> my patch kit.
> Again look at the link you provided. Surface freight only for
> vulcanizing solution. The stuff is made of volatile petroleum
> distillates - i.e. flammable. Next time you fly, ask the airline
> whether you can take those tubes with you. There are probably
> limitations on the amount you can take. One or two tubes may fall
> within the guidelines. A single 8 oz can does not.
I'm talking about the glue, not airline safety guidelines that allow
no containers with liquids in carry on luggage.
>> I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are here:
> Actually, it's bike tools etc. that has the wrong dimension for F0
> patches.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL308I04-Rema+F0-P+16Mm+Round+Patches.aspx
> You can verify this by taking a ruler and measuring the patch.
Yes, here is another reference:
http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-F0-P.html
http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-F1-P.html
I see there is a disparity in perception of patch F0-P and F1-P patch
sizes among suppliers.
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
> Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually
> occurs between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and
> the time I try to apply the patch.
Next time you patch, stretch the tube when the glue has dried and the
perforation will appear as a shiny spot where the REMA glue forms a
reflective membrane over the hole.
Jobst Brandt
russell...@yahoo.com
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
>
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
>
> Thanks!
Auto parts stores have big patch kits with numerous patches in them.
Even a big 4"x6" sheet that can be cut up into 24 1" square patches.
Enough patches to last years. And they sell big tubes of glue. REMA
patches? What a joke. Apparently the REC bicyclists are AIG
executives who got the government bailout money as bonuses. They love
to blow money like its going out of style.
Erness Wild
a few more bucks on tubes and tires, try a tire liner.
They were popular but often hard to find now.
They don't protect your tires from puncture but are pretty
good at stopping most punctures on the tubes.
And I'm not speaking from experience here. I've been most
fortunate not to have had a tube puncture on my bicycles in many
years without liners. (shouldn't have admitted that)
somebody wrote:
> What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
> moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider? Is it a good idea
> to use a larger inner tube size so patches don't have to stretch? I
> am currently carrying an extra tube and a glue-type patch kit.
>
> Are any of the glueless patches any good? I was thinking of the Park
> glueless patch just to avoid dealing with dried out tubes of glue.
>
> Thanks!
--
A website is a place, where, when you go there, it does everything
possible to distract you, from finding the information you came there
to see.- E.W.
AMuzi
>>> I always keep the newest tube of rubber solution in the kit on the
>>> bike, and use that to replace the one I keep in the toolkit at home
>>> when the home kit either runs out or dries out.
>>> Once opened, I don't replace rubber solution into the on-bike kit, but
>>> move it into the home toolkit and replace it with a new one.
>>> If I find a dried out tube of solution, I'd rather it was at home,
>>> where I'm not stranded, than out on the road, so that is always a new
>>> sealed tube.
>>> That way, if I do need it on the road, I know it's a fresh one.
> Peter Cole wrote:
>> Like others, I've opened a fresh tube of cement & found it dry.
jim beam wrote:
> don't you think it strange that it can sit on the shelf of a store for
> months, even years, and be perfect every single time, yet as soon as you
> rattle it around in the bag under your saddle for a few weeks, suddenly
> it's dry? ever wondered why that might be?
We receive the occasional dried tube in cases of "factory
fresh" patch kits. Slitting one open reveals glue detritus
so not a "missed fill" error.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
--D-y
> Those tiny tubes are great for bicycle touring but
> hard to find, so I reuse them.
Our local (non- Super) Target store has a large assortment of "travel
items", all kinds of toothpaste and shampoo, etc.
Not to spoil your fun IRT using the same mini-tube you've had since
1958 (Ipana, Bucky Beaver?)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WMABRjTjM)
> Squeezing the tube of glue when vertical with fluid just level with
> the open end (up) is a good way to replace the cap. Just the same, as
> others have mentioned, they have opened new tubes (with the metal tube
> closure not yet punctured) to find them dry, or at least with the
> contents no longer fluid, indicating the crimp must be the leak.
Or maybe the tube didn't get filled in the first place. Just sayin'.
But, yes, as others report, I have had tubes that went dry in time
after one or two uses, even with the threads clean and cap on tight
and not cross-threaded.
I can't explain JB's "luck" except to suggest that all crimps are not
created equal! --D-y
Michael Press
Stephen Bauman <sba...@abt.net> wrote:
> The
> vulcanizing solution is what it says it is. It liquifies the top layer of
> rubber on the tube.
No it does not, else it would liquify all the way through the tube.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
> The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's why
> an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air will make it
> evaporate.
Why can it not be sent air freight? How does air freight cause
contact with air?
--
Michael Press
mike
fin...@bad.example.net says...
And if you don't want to wait the full 5 minutes for the glue to 'dry',
or if it is very cold and humid and don't think it has dried yet, a nice
way to test is to touch the back of your _clean_ fingernail to the glue.
If there is no 'stick' feeling, then it is fine to apply the patch.
Mike
mike
sba...@abt.net says...
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 05:58:30 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:
>
> >
> > How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry. Besides,
> > blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also won't
> > accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to the
> > surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as soon
> > as they reach the surface.
> >
>
> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait until
> a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on the tube.
>
> Regarding moisture and the vulcanizing solution. The solution is clear,
> when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it cloudy. This
> indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of the moisture in the
> breath has been trapped and is probably in contact with the tube. That's
> not what I want.
>
the cloudy bloom. If you are in a hurry you can speed things up by
grasping the tube from the opposite side and spinning it rapidly in the
air. Looks stupid - but significantly decreases the drying time.
Cheers
--Mike
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
>>> Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but
>>> also won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents
>>> migrate to the surface on their own and disperse to the
>>> surrounding atmosphere as soon as they reach the surface.
>> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I
>> wait until a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid
>> remaining on the tube.
>> Regarding moisture and the vulcanizing solution. The solution is
>> clear, when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it
>> cloudy. This indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of
>> the moisture in the breath has been trapped and is probably in
>> contact with the tube. That's not what I want.
> Blowing does speed up the drying but, like you, I don't like the
> look of the cloudy bloom. If you are in a hurry you can speed
> things up by grasping the tube from the opposite side and spinning
> it rapidly in the air. Looks stupid - but significantly decreases
> the drying time.
It seems both you and Steve Bauman wish to ignore that patches can be
pulled off by hand immediately after application... even ones that the
REMA man applies "by-the-book". I became aware of this years ago when
riders doing it by-the-book at my weekly tire maintenance evenings
occasionally realized they had not placed the patch center over the
puncture so we pulled the REMA patch off and got another one for a
redo.
We also found that patches that had been on for more than a day could
not be pulled off without the heating method with a frying pan that I
described.
I also pointed out that the cellophane has a break line across its
center to make peeling it from the center easy because pulling it from
one edge takes the patch along. Either you never tried it or you did
not observe the results, or you would not gloss over the need for cure
time for REMA patches to become secure. If the REMA man didn't know
it until I demonstrated it, I suppose I cannot fault bicyclists for
not recognizing this phenomenon.
Have you, for instance, cut through a domed (immediately used) patch
to determine whether the dome is full of talcum powder or still well
adhered to the tube. Did you try the test of placing a business card
between tube and tire casing (under its tread) to see that the massage
will cause it to turn to mm sized confetti.
Repeating what the REMA instruction sheet says does not answer these
question. This is getting to be more and more like religious faith.
Jobst Brandt
datakoll
roller, smaller.
force may circumvent burnish.
never saw a 'talc dome'
salt domes no talc domes.
try CHOH following sanding. all sanding ops follow with surface wash
emptying canyons of debris thus giving glue or whatever we shall
callit, roots.
in this vein, curing is essentialo. EVERYTHING POURED TO BECOME A
SOLID GETS CURED.
tube patchs are no exception.
go infared heat lamp, light bulb....hair dryer.
a small c-clamp will increase patch grip.
why " well, becasue small c-clamps always increase glue grip.
whose gonna argue clamping reduces grip ?
duh duh duh
silicone woreks as a tube/tire lube. excellent. however let the
solvents/carrier burn off before mounting. The solvent carrier softens
the tube. Silicone seams to reduce tube failures from tube-tire-
business card stress. nothing like a good silicone job on a light
weight frame.
but once again, candy store tubes suck. posters whine year in year out
whine whine whine "muh tubes blow out" booohooo
buy walmart tubes then use worn out treadless tires for your next
trans rockies excursiuon and...
buy good tubes $8+ and good tires $35+
carry patchs and your tires/tubes will blow.
carry spare tubes
and an SUV will get you
good riddance.
Tom Sherman
Are your tires flat prone? I only use a couple of patches a year, so an
inexpensive Pyramid flat kit last several years.
Stephen Bauman
>
> Blowing does speed up the drying but, like you, I don't like the look of
> the cloudy bloom. If you are in a hurry you can speed things up by
> grasping the tube from the opposite side and spinning it rapidly in the
> air. Looks stupid - but significantly decreases the drying time.
>
It would appear there are two formulations for the Rema cold vulcanizing
fluid. The tubes contain naptha
http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/RTT-047_MSDS_201-F1-
F_082008DHA.pdf
and the 8 oz and larger cans contain contain trichloroethylene
http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/
RTT-018_MSDS_203-204-205_082008DHA.pdf
Water and humidity break down trichloroethylene. Naptha and water do not
mix. So blowing on the naptha based fluid will result in leaving a
residue of water on the tube. That residue will become trapped when the
patch is applied.
Either type of fluid will result in a less successful to unsuccessful
result. The better technique is to apply a thin layer and patience.
Stephen Bauman
If you keep the butyl rubber tube immersed in the fluid for a
sufficiently long time, it will.
The trick is to apply a small amount and let it evaporate before it has a
chance to go penetrate before it can penetrate beyond the surface layer
of rubber.
Look up the safety precautions for handling either naptha or
trichloroethylene. Neither recommends using either natural or butyl
rubber as protective gear because they become permeable within an hour.
Stephen Bauman
The question of whether an item can be air freighted has more to do with
what happens if it breaks open. If the compound is highly flammable, then
it goes by ground where the fumes can vent to atmosphere instead of being
recirculated.
Tom Sherman
> try rolling patchs with off course, a roller. like a fiberglass
> roller, smaller.
> force may circumvent burnish.
> never saw a 'talc dome'
> salt domes no talc domes.
> try CHOH following sanding.
Do I need to carry a bottle of Everclear® when I ride?
Ah, good cheer!
jim beam
you're dodging and weaving jobst. increasing air flow increases solvent
evaporation rate. real basic fundamental stuff.
bleating that you can pull a patch off is not only a red herring that
doesn't succeed in masking your fundamental error, it /really/ doesn't
matter. what matters is whether the glue is strong enough to hold the
patch on the tube inside the tire. and it is!
>
> We also found that patches that had been on for more than a day could
> not be pulled off without the heating method with a frying pan that I
> described.
rubbish - you can pull them off any time.
>
> I also pointed out that the cellophane has a break line across its
> center to make peeling it from the center easy because pulling it from
> one edge takes the patch along. Either you never tried it or you did
> not observe the results, or you would not gloss over the need for cure
> time for REMA patches to become secure. If the REMA man didn't know
> it until I demonstrated it
this was one of their scientists back in germany, right? not just some
trade show sales dude? oh yes jobst, we /really/ believe you!!!
>, I suppose I cannot fault bicyclists for
> not recognizing this phenomenon.
can we fault "engineers" for not knowing basic physics and evaporation?
>
> Have you, for instance, cut through a domed (immediately used) patch
> to determine whether the dome is full of talcum powder or still well
> adhered to the tube. Did you try the test of placing a business card
> between tube and tire casing (under its tread) to see that the massage
> will cause it to turn to mm sized confetti.
is this deliberate confusion of effects, or are you simply ignorant of
these things being unrelated?
>
> Repeating what the REMA instruction sheet says does not answer these
> question. This is getting to be more and more like religious faith.
religious ignorance in your case.
tell us jobst - how did you get into stanford [let alone graduate] if
you didn't do high school science? did you get some kind of a "bye" via
the army?
and why do stanford continue to let you disgrace their name each time
you air your ignorance and insist on putting their name to it? if i
were chair of the alumni association, i'd expel your ass and sue you for
defamation.
jim beam
this is not a facetious question: how do you know if a tube is dry? do
you weigh them? because a customer returned it? or do you use small
tubes when repairing customer tires?
jim beam
> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:41:44 +1200, mike wrote:
>
>> Blowing does speed up the drying but, like you, I don't like the look of
>> the cloudy bloom. If you are in a hurry you can speed things up by
>> grasping the tube from the opposite side and spinning it rapidly in the
>> air. Looks stupid - but significantly decreases the drying time.
>>
>
> It would appear there are two formulations for the Rema cold vulcanizing
> fluid. The tubes contain naptha
>
> http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/RTT-047_MSDS_201-F1-
> F_082008DHA.pdf
>
> and the 8 oz and larger cans contain contain trichloroethylene
>
> http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/
> RTT-018_MSDS_203-204-205_082008DHA.pdf
>
> Water and humidity break down trichloroethylene.
no, they simply form solution - solubility is not evidence of decomposition.
> Naptha and water do not
> mix. So blowing on the naptha based fluid will result in leaving a
> residue of water on the tube. That residue will become trapped when the
> patch is applied.
only if, like jobst, you apply when still wet. you shouldn't. and if
you don't, you'll find that patch stuck most successfully.
jim beam
> Stephen Bauman wrote:
>
>
>>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
>
>> Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually
>> occurs between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and
>> the time I try to apply the patch.
>
>>> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause.
>>> On the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
>>> alternative abrader to sand paper.
>
>> Other people have already replied. Using the "rasp" or "cheese
>> grater" requires special care for the paper thin latex tubes in
>> sewups. I find sandpaper is safer. Some of the old timers (ca.
>> 1930's riders) considered sandpaper an abomination.
>
> As I said, latex tubes are best patched with remnants of no longer
> serviceable latex tubes from which suitable rounded shapes can be cut
> with scissors. A semi rigid and many times thicker REMA patch is a
> lump on the tube that in light weight tubular tires could be felt when
> rolling on smooth roads.
wow, what a classic!!! do you patch your tires on the outside then
jobst??? har de har har har!!!
>
>>> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
>>> Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
>>> won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate
>>> to the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding
>>> atmosphere as soon as they reach the surface.
>
>> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait
>> until a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on
>> the tube.
>
> As I mentioned, and you chose to omit in quotes, I spoke with the REMA
> patch representative and showed him ho the instructions to completely
> dry the glue was no means of making patches adhere well enough to be
> used immediately.
snip remaining bullshit.
jobst, you're /way/ off base. that may not be new, but it sure is stupid.
Stephen Bauman
> Stephen Bauman wrote:
>
>
>>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
>
>> Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually occurs
>> between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and the time I
>> try to apply the patch.
>
>>> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
>>> the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
>>> alternative abrader to sand paper.
>
>> Other people have already replied. Using the "rasp" or "cheese grater"
>> requires special care for the paper thin latex tubes in sewups. I find
>> sandpaper is safer. Some of the old timers (ca. 1930's riders)
>> considered sandpaper an abomination.
>
> As I said, latex tubes are best patched with remnants of no longer
> serviceable latex tubes from which suitable rounded shapes can be cut
> with scissors. A semi rigid and many times thicker REMA patch is a lump
> on the tube that in light weight tubular tires could be felt when
> rolling on smooth roads.
>
It's a non sequitor from comparing the relative ease of causing damage to
a latex tube with a rasp vs. sandpaper to discussing what type of patch
to use for latex tubes. However, if one feels a thump when riding a
tubular, it's probably due to the stitching coming apart and not a thick,
inflexible Rema patch.
>>> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
>>> Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
>>> won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to
>>> the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as
>>> soon as they reach the surface.
>
>> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait
>> until a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on
>> the tube.
>
> As I mentioned, and you chose to omit in quotes, I spoke with the REMA
> patch representative and showed him ho the instructions to completely
> dry the glue was no means of making patches adhere well enough to be
> used immediately.
>
I was not a witness to your conversation with a Rema patch
representative. I have no knowledge of what questions you asked, what his
replies were, what qualifications the rep had for answering them, etc. I
prefer to refrain from commenting without such knowledge.
>> Regarding moisture and the vulcanizing solution. The solution is
>> clear, when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it cloudy.
>> This indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of the moisture
>> in the breath has been trapped and is probably in contact with the
>> tube. That's not what I want.
>
> I think you'll see that haze evaporate quickly if you wait for the
> adhesive to dry, drying that is not to be taken to the point that REMA
> instructions suggest. The patched tube that I had in my shoulder bag
> could not be removed as the REMA man claimed. He tried his "usual"
> method of poking through the patch and lifting it. All this produced
> was hole in the patch. He could not remove the patch.
>
> In contrast, I pulled his "perfectly applied patch off with thumb and
> forefinger without effort.
>
> I could not see in his face whether this left any new information in his
> thinking about patches, even though I told him of the method that makes
> patches removable. Warm a frying pan and press the tube against its
> surface with the thumb until it becomes too hot to hold with the thumb.
> Patches peel off fairly well with that method.
>
I've already discussed the problems introduced by water with the
vulcanizing fluid in another post. In both cases water and the fluid are
not soluble. This results in water coming between the patch and the tube.
If you really believe that water vapor has no effect, try patching a tube
while holding it in the stream of a room humidifier.
That hardly contradicts the assertion that butyl rubber is colorless.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_rubber
>
>> The Rema vulcanizing solution does not dissolve the pigment only the
>> butyl rubber.
>
> They are one and the same. The Wiki article is a lot of chemical jargon
> in spite of which I have never seen a butyl rubber inner tube that
> wasn't black and which was soluble in patch glue.
>
I gather you had a more difficult time with chemistry than I did. :=)
Butyl rubber is used for many things besides tubes. It's also used for
tires. Bike tires now come in designer colors. It's used in brake pads.
Simply adding iron oxide (already red-brown) makes the pads red-brown.
That would not happen, if the butyl rubber were intrinsically black.
> In contrast, latex tubes are so affected by REMA glue that they distort
> and curl, making inner tube replacement in a tubular tire a less than
> obvious procedure. To do that the tubular tire stitching is opened at
> the stem for about two inches, the old tube cut and pulled out trailing
> a cord by which a new and cut tube is pulled in. The ends of the new
> tube are overlapped about a half inch and thick rubber cement spread in
> the interface with a toothpick and pressed together. I found Pastali rim
> cement best for this operation and latex being highly permeable to the
> volatiles, quickly becomes a permanent inseparable bond.
>
Very thin paper reacts the same way when rubber cement is applied. It's
due to its thinness. I apply very little vulcanizing fluid, when I repair
latex tubes in tubulars. They do wrinkle a little but the patch still
works. I've not found a need for major surgery.
I'm a bit confused by your juxtaposition of rubber cement and Pastali rim
cement. I always used Clement rim cement and proudly bore that red-brown
stain on my pinky to prove it. I know the formulation of rim cement has
changed, making its use on the road impractical. I've been forced back to
using Jantex tape.
>>> I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither seen a
>>> butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of REMA glue, it
>>> being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of course if you don't
>>> put the patch in place while the glue is still tacky, you will not get
>>> good adhesion.
>
>> Evaporation is a surface phenomenon. If you have a greater volume of
>> vulcanizing solution spread over the same area as a thin layer, then it
>> will take longer to dry. It may look dry because it evaporates from
>> the air down to the tube. Thus, a "too thick" layer may look dry but
>> will still be tacky at the tube - where it counts.
>
> As I said, it evaporates through the patch and makes a permanent bond in
> time. My demonstration for the REMA man may not have convinced him, nor
> you, that patches need curing time and the dryness of the adhesive is
> only necessarily at the shiny tacky state where the patch can no longer
> slide.
>
If the vulcanizing fluid evaporated through the patch, then air in the
patched inflated tube would also permeate through it. This would be true
regardless of the method the patch were applied. Ergo, patches do not
work. However, patches do work.
>>> That is incorrect. The orange rubber is just that and has no
>>> vulcanizing solution on it. It is a material that bonds with slightly
>>> moist patch glue and allows remaining volatile solvents to escape
>>> through the patch. That is why patches are only secure after a
>>> substantial cure time, about three or four hours. I don't know other
>>> than generally using a spare tube and letting the patch cure over
>>> night.
>
>> There are some old school riders who are so cheap that they refuse to
>> waste a quarter on a patch. They cut up old tubes instead. These old
>> tubes need a separate treatment with vulcanizing solution before
>> applying them to the tube. I though I made the distinction between
>> using cut up old tubes and ready made patches clear. Sorry, for any
>> misunderstanding.
>
> I've seen that routine and found that butyl rubber is impermeable to
> tire patch glue volatile component, requiring the glue to be dry on
> patch and tube before placing the patch... but they don't adhere well in
> use, the glue being either too dry or too wet (locally). That's why the
> method is generally not used and that is why we have REMA patches.
>
I've been forced to use that method myself. It's difficult because you
must synchronize the drying of the vulcanizing fluid on both the tube and
the patching material. However, when you are the mechanic and a rider has
walked one or more miles with a tube with a 3 or 4 inch slit, one
improvises. Needless to say, said rider had a previous flat and
improperly reassembled the tube and tire. Said rider then threw away the
original tube to save weight.
>>> To what do you attribute this short life from air freight? I have no
>>> problem with air travel from SF to ZH with used tubes of glue in my
>>> patch kit.
>
>> Again look at the link you provided. Surface freight only for
>> vulcanizing solution. The stuff is made of volatile petroleum
>> distillates - i.e. flammable. Next time you fly, ask the airline
>> whether you can take those tubes with you. There are probably
>> limitations on the amount you can take. One or two tubes may fall
>> within the guidelines. A single 8 oz can does not.
>
> I'm talking about the glue, not airline safety guidelines that allow no
> containers with liquids in carry on luggage.
>
>>> I think you have the sizes incorrectly. They are here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cjya34
>
>> Actually, it's bike tools etc. that has the wrong dimension for F0
>> patches.
>
> http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL308I04-Rema+F0-P+16Mm+Round
+Patches.aspx
>
>> You can verify this by taking a ruler and measuring the patch.
>
> Yes, here is another reference:
>
> http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-F0-P.html
> http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-F1-P.html
>
> I see there is a disparity in perception of patch F0-P and F1-P patch
> sizes among suppliers.
>
I did suggest an alternative - measure the patch with a ruler. You can
also look it up on the Rema site.
http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=1
Stephen Bauman
jim beam
no shit.
>
>>>> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
>>>> Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but also
>>>> won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents migrate to
>>>> the surface on their own and disperse to the surrounding atmosphere as
>>>> soon as they reach the surface.
>>> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I wait
>>> until a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid remaining on
>>> the tube.
>> As I mentioned, and you chose to omit in quotes, I spoke with the REMA
>> patch representative and showed him ho the instructions to completely
>> dry the glue was no means of making patches adhere well enough to be
>> used immediately.
>>
>
> I was not a witness to your conversation with a Rema patch
> representative. I have no knowledge of what questions you asked, what his
> replies were, what qualifications the rep had for answering them, etc. I
> prefer to refrain from commenting without such knowledge.
<snip>
if only jobst would work on that basis, he'd be utterly silent and we'd
not suffer any more of this drivel.
Stephen Bauman
> Stephen Bauman wrote:
>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:41:44 +1200, mike wrote:
>>
>>> Blowing does speed up the drying but, like you, I don't like the look
>>> of the cloudy bloom. If you are in a hurry you can speed things up by
>>> grasping the tube from the opposite side and spinning it rapidly in
>>> the air. Looks stupid - but significantly decreases the drying time.
>>>
>>>
>> It would appear there are two formulations for the Rema cold
>> vulcanizing fluid. The tubes contain naptha
>>
>> http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/RTT-047_MSDS_201-F1-
>> F_082008DHA.pdf
>>
>> and the 8 oz and larger cans contain contain trichloroethylene
>>
>> http://www.rematiptop.com/technical/trm/msds/
>> RTT-018_MSDS_203-204-205_082008DHA.pdf
>>
>> Water and humidity break down trichloroethylene.
>
> no, they simply form solution - solubility is not evidence of
> decomposition.
>
I stand corrected. My chemistry is very limited as I noted. Before
writing this I thought I googled trichloroethylene. It turns out I was
looking at the properties of trichloroethane by mistake.
Stephen Bauman
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
[snip]
>If the vulcanizing fluid evaporated through the patch, then air in the
>patched inflated tube would also permeate through it. This would be true
>regardless of the method the patch were applied. Ergo, patches do not
>work. However, patches do work.
[snip]
Dear Stephen,
CO2 is much more soluble in butyl rubber than N2 or 02.
That's why you have to pump up a tire inflated with a CO2 cartridge in
a day or so.
The same gases are all more soluble in latex rubber than in butyl
rubber.
That's why you have to pump up a latex tube every day or so.
Why wouldn't the volatile ingredients of cold vulcanizing fluid do the
same thing?
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jim beam
fogel is dead right on this one - these solvents do indeed diffuse
through rubber, as do the above gases.
to clarify "solubility", diffusion is a better word - it's migratory.
once something is dissolved, all things being equal, it stays that way.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>>>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>>>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
>>> Wait till you join the bifocal generation. My problem usually occurs
>>> between the time that I apply the vulcanizing solution and the time I
>>> try to apply the patch.
>>>> What do you mean by "rasp" and what sort of damage it might cause. On
>>>> the other hand, I don't know what sort of rasp you believe is an
>>>> alternative abrader to sand paper.
>>> Other people have already replied. Using the "rasp" or "cheese grater"
>>> requires special care for the paper thin latex tubes in sewups. I find
>>> sandpaper is safer. Some of the old timers (ca. 1930's riders)
>>> considered sandpaper an abomination.
>> As I said, latex tubes are best patched with remnants of no longer
>> serviceable latex tubes from which suitable rounded shapes can be cut
>> with scissors. A semi rigid and many times thicker REMA patch is a lump
>> on the tube that in light weight tubular tires could be felt when
>> rolling on smooth roads.
> It's a non sequitor from comparing the relative ease of causing damage to
> a latex tube with a rasp vs. sandpaper to discussing what type of patch
> to use for latex tubes. However, if one feels a thump when riding a
> tubular, it's probably due to the stitching coming apart and not a thick,
> inflexible Rema patch.
I failed to mention, that latex tubes do not have mold release on them
nor any other inhibitor to patch glue. Therefore, nop sanding or
cheese grater gouging is appropriate.
> I was not a witness to your conversation with a Rema patch
> representative. I have no knowledge of what questions you asked, what his
> replies were, what qualifications the rep had for answering them, etc. I
> prefer to refrain from commenting without such knowledge.
THey were as I stated. I told him I believed the istruction sheet was
inaccurate and that patched tubes should not be immediately used or
they would lift off. His respopnse was that I was probably doing it
wrong and he would show me. There were few words exchanged. He went
about patching the way the REMA instruction sheet prescribes, after
which I pulled his "perfectly" mounted patch off to his amazement as I
had described. Thereafter he was not prepared to discuss it any
further,. I had already given him my explanation about time cured
patches. The only thing that followed was that he tried and failed to
remove a patch that I had (incorrectly applied onto semi-dry glue) and
cured over time.
>>> Butyl rubber is colorless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyl_rubber
Thanks for looking up the type of solvents in these glues. I believe
they are incorrectly names as "vulcanizing" in an attempt to make it
sound like the effect is the same as "hot patches" that were ihnfact
vulcanized onto the tube with heat and were imediately adhered as well
as they everwould. The rubber cements from REMA contain solvents that
enable the patch and tube to be intimately connected and that semi
luid interface then dries to s solid bond. However, evaporation
through the patch takes time and progresses better if the cellophane
is removed. That is why it should be removed, but because many users
fdo not know how to get t off without pulling off the patch, they
leave it on, which enhances patch lift off if used immediately.
> Butyl rubber is used for many things besides tubes. It's also used
> for tires. Bike tires now come in designer colors. It's used in
> brake pads. Simply adding iron oxide (already red-brown) makes the
> pads red-brown. That would not happen, if the butyl rubber were
> intrinsically black.
>> In contrast, latex tubes are so affected by REMA glue that they
>> distort and curl, making inner tube replacement in a tubular tire a
>> less than obvious procedure. To do that the tubular tire stitching
>> is opened at the stem for about two inches, the old tube cut and
>> pulled out trailing a cord by which a new and cut tube is pulled
>> in. The ends of the new tube are overlapped about a half inch and
>> thick rubber cement spread in the interface with a toothpick and
>> pressed together. I found Pastali rim cement best for this
>> operation and latex being highly permeable to the volatiles,
>> quickly becomes a permanent inseparable bond.
> Very thin paper reacts the same way when rubber cement is applied.
> It's due to its thinness. I apply very little vulcanizing fluid,
> when I repair latex tubes in tubulars. They do wrinkle a little but
> the patch still works. I've not found a need for major surgery.
> I'm a bit confused by your juxtaposition of rubber cement and
> Pastali rim cement. I always used Clement rim cement and proudly
> bore that red-brown stain on my pinky to prove it. I know the
> formulation of rim cement has changed, making its use on the road
> impractical. I've been forced back to using Jantex tape.
I was glad to put tubular tires behind me and switch to clinchers,
especially when I was able to get Avocet to import IRC slicks under
their label.
>>>> I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither
>>>> seen a butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of
>>>> REMA glue, it being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of
>>>> course if you don't put the patch in place while the glue is
>>>> still tacky, you will not get good adhesion.
>>> Evaporation is a surface phenomenon. If you have a greater volume
>>> of vulcanizing solution spread over the same area as a thin layer,
>>> then it will take longer to dry. It may look dry because it
>>> evaporates from the air down to the tube. Thus, a "too thick"
>>> layer may look dry but will still be tacky at the tube - where it
>>> counts.
>> As I said, it evaporates through the patch and makes a permanent
>> bond in time. My demonstration for the REMA man may not have
>> convinced him, nor you, that patches need curing time and the
>> dryness of the adhesive is only necessarily at the shiny tacky
>> state where the patch can no longer slide.
> If the vulcanizing fluid evaporated through the patch, then air in
> the patched inflated tube would also permeate through it. This
> would be true regardless of the method the patch were applied.
> Ergo, patches do not work. However, patches do work.
I don't believe so. Different gasses pas though rubber of various
types at different rates. Air leaks out slowly enough that a 28C tire
can often be ridden without additional inflation for more than tree
weeks. While other gases leak faster.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL308I04-Rema+F0-P+16Mm+Round+Patches.aspx
http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-F0-P.html
http://www.alltiresupply.com/p-F1-P.html
...and you can look it up on the above web sites that agree with your
dimensions.
http://www.rematiptop.com/parts.php?sid=1
Jobst Brandt
AMuzi
>>> The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates. That's why
>>> an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact with air will make
>>> it evaporate.
> Michael Press wrote:
>> Why can it not be sent air freight? How does air freight cause contact
>> with air?
Stephen Bauman wrote:
> The question of whether an item can be air freighted has more to do with
> what happens if it breaks open. If the compound is highly flammable, then
> it goes by ground where the fumes can vent to atmosphere instead of being
> recirculated.
Well, that and urban myths.
Aerosols are banned from air freight. Check-in personnel
sometimes insist on deflatng bicycle tires too. In outer
space you'd only gain 1 bar and airplanes don't go that high.
AMuzi
Weight difference is noticeable and yes, customers complain
as always. Typically, guy buys a patch kit and returns 5
minutes later with a dried tube. Rarely, once a year or less.
We haven't patched in years but when we did we used Tech
supplies including 8oz tin-with-brush of cement, trichlor
buffer, etc
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>>> The cold vulcanizing solution contains volatile distillates.
>>>> That's why an 8 oz can of it cannot be air freighted. Contact
>>>> with air will make it evaporate.
>>> Why can it not be sent air freight? How does air freight cause
>>> contact with air?
>> The question of whether an item can be air freighted has more to do
>> with what happens if it breaks open. If the compound is highly
>> flammable, then it goes by ground where the fumes can vent to
>> atmosphere instead of being recirculated.
> Well, that and urban myths.
> Aerosols are banned from air freight. Check-in personnel sometimes
> insist on deflating bicycle tires too. In outer space you'd only
> gain 1 bar and airplanes don't go that high.
As I have often written in these pages when people ask whether I
deflate tires when traveling to Europe for a bicycle tour of the Alps:
"Tampering with tires of commercial aircraft is a federal offense. I
never deflate tires before taking off from either SFO or ZRH." Of
course the SR71 had no facility that deflater its tires for its high
altitude supersonic flights either.
http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/sr-71_blackbird.pl
Jobst Brandt
jim beam
eh???? yes they do. maybe you can't see it contrasted because latex is
not black, bu tthey most definitely do.
> nor any other inhibitor to patch glue. Therefore, nop sanding or
> cheese grater gouging is appropriate.
you still get surface degradation jobst - abrasion /is/ appropriate.
just don't be a klutz about it.
>
>> I was not a witness to your conversation with a Rema patch
>> representative. I have no knowledge of what questions you asked, what his
>> replies were, what qualifications the rep had for answering them, etc. I
>> prefer to refrain from commenting without such knowledge.
>
> THey were as I stated. I told him I believed the istruction sheet was
> inaccurate
ah, the expert that doesn't know about polymers, adhesives, diffusion,
oxidation or even mold release lecturing a manufacturer on how to use
their own product!!! i bet you were well received jobst!
> and that patched tubes should not be immediately used or
> they would lift off. His respopnse was that I was probably doing it
> wrong and he would show me. There were few words exchanged. He went
> about patching the way the REMA instruction sheet prescribes, after
> which I pulled his "perfectly" mounted patch off to his amazement as I
> had described. Thereafter he was not prepared to discuss it any
> further,. I had already given him my explanation about time cured
> patches. The only thing that followed was that he tried and failed to
> remove a patch that I had (incorrectly applied onto semi-dry glue) and
> cured over time.
sure. we believe you.
oh please jobst.
1. what's going on /through/ the rubber is called diffusion, not
evaporation.
2. cellophane is not a significant barrier to diffusion. that's one of
the reasons it's used.
> That is why it should be removed, but because many users
> fdo not know how to get t off without pulling off the patch, they
> leave it on, which enhances patch lift off if used immediately.
only if erroneously applied to wet glue like you do!!!
don't tell me - these tires were so good, you could feel the bumps under
the carcass from each patch, just like you could on tubular tires? fuck
me, that lumpy tire story was fantastic jobst! almost as good as you
van der waal's brake squeal story!
>
>>>>> I am not convinced your scenario has any merit, having neither
>>>>> seen a butyl tube dissolve or suffer from too thick a layer of
>>>>> REMA glue, it being too liquid to apply in excess thickness. Of
>>>>> course if you don't put the patch in place while the glue is
>>>>> still tacky, you will not get good adhesion.
>
>>>> Evaporation is a surface phenomenon. If you have a greater volume
>>>> of vulcanizing solution spread over the same area as a thin layer,
>>>> then it will take longer to dry. It may look dry because it
>>>> evaporates from the air down to the tube. Thus, a "too thick"
>>>> layer may look dry but will still be tacky at the tube - where it
>>>> counts.
>
>>> As I said, it evaporates through the patch and makes a permanent
>>> bond in time. My demonstration for the REMA man may not have
>>> convinced him, nor you, that patches need curing time and the
>>> dryness of the adhesive is only necessarily at the shiny tacky
>>> state where the patch can no longer slide.
>
>> If the vulcanizing fluid evaporated through the patch, then air in
>> the patched inflated tube would also permeate through it. This
>> would be true regardless of the method the patch were applied.
>> Ergo, patches do not work. However, patches do work.
>
> I don't believe so. Different gasses pas though rubber of various
> types at different rates. Air leaks out slowly enough that a 28C tire
> can often be ridden without additional inflation for more than tree
> weeks. While other gases leak faster.
er, does a gas /know/ that the tire has a different diameter???
jobst, stop bullshitting please. i know you love to masquerade as an
"expert", but the topics you choose, you're clearly not. laughably not.
stupidly pathetically not.
it's probably best you stick to something like rants about black suv's.
[oh, and omit the bmw bearing theory if you ever go on to cars again -
you're laughably ridiculously stupidly wrong on that one too.]
jim beam
er, does anecdotal crap like this make you an expert in something?
polymers for instance? steam engine lubrication? braking surface
interactions in the presence of water?
jim beam
well, i think you should check for the possibility that they had another
kit, they carried it, with tube, unprotected for a year or so, came to
use it, it was dry. then they came to you, bought a new one, and came
back 5 mins later substituting the old one and hoping for a freebie.
i say this because some people are born bullshitters. example: i helped
a neighbor with his car because it wouldn't start. i look under the
hood and start diagnostics, but i also ask him if he'd done anything -
obviously he had because the thing was completely spotless under there.
"oh no, nothing" he said. long story short, because i'd figured out
the problem by now, i keep pressing on this point again and again, and
again and again, he swears up and down and sideways he hadn't messed
with anything. "i drove it into the garage yesterday, it worked fine.
today, it won't start". so i swapped the plug leads back into the
correct order, and it started first time. "but i never touched anything".
as i said, even when confronted with the truth, some people are just
born bullshitters.
Nick L Plate
> In article <7eGdnYTaMpELYkTUnZ2dnUVZ_qjin...@speakeasy.net>, retard-
> fin...@bad.example.net says...
It's dry when the shine disappears.
TJ
Nick L Plate
after forty years, he's sure not going to change his mind now.
TJ
mike
@v28g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, tj-...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
the year).
Mike
carl...@comcast.net
>Stephen Bauman wrote:
>> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
>> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center
>> the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube around the
>> patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and white. I
>> place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the puncture is
>> in the center of the tube on top of the red-white boundary. I'll
>> hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the puncture is
>> really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
>
>I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>sand the tube to a dull finish.
Dear Jobst,
By an amazing coincidence, I have a tube with a fresh hole in it that
may show why Stephen sometimes has trouble keeping track of punctures.
Here's a 640x480 photo, reasonably lit and focused, showing the hole
after a few swipes with a sanding block:
http://i39.tinypic.com/1to38w.jpg
The hole is hard to spot, isn't it?
Here's a larger version of the photo, with a helpful red circle:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/1473_puncture.JPG
Experience suggests that the hole will be practically invisible after
I slather some glue on it.
So when I patch the tube, I'll wrap it around the round metal arm of a
bench vise and tuck a toothpick under the stretched rubber, pointing
toward the hole.
It beats coming back five minutes later and wondering where the hell
the tiny puncture went while the glue was drying.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
AMuzi
>>> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
>>> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I center
>>> the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube around the
>>> patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and white. I
>>> place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the puncture is
>>> in the center of the tube on top of the red-white boundary. I'll
>>> hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the puncture is
>>> really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
> jobst....@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> By an amazing coincidence, I have a tube with a fresh hole in it that
> may show why Stephen sometimes has trouble keeping track of punctures.
> Here's a 640x480 photo, reasonably lit and focused, showing the hole
> after a few swipes with a sanding block:
> http://i39.tinypic.com/1to38w.jpg
> The hole is hard to spot, isn't it?
> Here's a larger version of the photo, with a helpful red circle:
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/1473_puncture.JPG
> Experience suggests that the hole will be practically invisible after
> I slather some glue on it.
> So when I patch the tube, I'll wrap it around the round metal arm of a
> bench vise and tuck a toothpick under the stretched rubber, pointing
> toward the hole.
> It beats coming back five minutes later and wondering where the hell
> the tiny puncture went while the glue was drying.
Yes, there are many approaches to that. When I was patching
a couple dozen a day, we wrapped the tube across the back of
one hand, puncture centered. After a solvent wipe (abrasive
if you prefer) and cement, the injury is still centered even
when invisible. And one doesn't touch the area with dirty
fingers during the process.
If your cement really takes 5 minutes to flash, you might
try a a thinner application of cement.
mike
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org says...
> Mike Fee wrote:
>
> >>> How do you determine that the glue has become "completely" dry.
> >>> Besides, blowing on it won't affect its adhesive qualities but
> >>> also won't accelerate evaporation because the volatile solvents
> >>> migrate to the surface on their own and disperse to the
> >>> surrounding atmosphere as soon as they reach the surface.
>
> >> Perhaps, the qualifier "completely" was a little too strong. I
> >> wait until a visual inspection shows that there is no liquid
> >> remaining on the tube.
>
> >> clear, when applied to the tube. Blowing on it will turn it
> >> cloudy. This indicates either a chemical reaction or that some of
> >> the moisture in the breath has been trapped and is probably in
> >> contact with the tube. That's not what I want.
>
> > look of the cloudy bloom. If you are in a hurry you can speed
> > things up by grasping the tube from the opposite side and spinning
> > it rapidly in the air. Looks stupid - but significantly decreases
> > the drying time.
>
> pulled off by hand immediately after application... even ones that the
> REMA man applies "by-the-book". I became aware of this years ago when
> riders doing it by-the-book at my weekly tire maintenance evenings
> occasionally realized they had not placed the patch center over the
> puncture so we pulled the REMA patch off and got another one for a
> redo.
>
and windy night after puncturing on a chip of glass from an alco-pop
bottle that some cretin threw out of a car window. Why on earth would I
even want to attempt to pull off a patch when all I need to do is apply
it, stuff the tyre back in the tube, inflate it, and ride home?
> We also found that patches that had been on for more than a day could
> not be pulled off without the heating method with a frying pan that I
> described.
>
Fryingpans are for cooking salmon, eggs, and pancakes (mmmmmm
pancakes!!). I tend to keep them away from ruber products.
> I also pointed out that the cellophane has a break line across its
> center to make peeling it from the center easy because pulling it from
> one edge takes the patch along. Either you never tried it or you did
> not observe the results, or you would not gloss over the need for cure
> time for REMA patches to become secure. If the REMA man didn't know
> it until I demonstrated it, I suppose I cannot fault bicyclists for
> not recognizing this phenomenon.
>
I don't use REMA patches - the ones I use have a foil backing and a sort
of paper on the top. I usually remove that by streching the tube/patch
until the paper tears at the centre. Sometimes I leave it in place and
in my experience it has little if any efect on the future life of the
patch.
> Have you, for instance, cut through a domed (immediately used) patch
> to determine whether the dome is full of talcum powder or still well
> adhered to the tube. Did you try the test of placing a business card
> between tube and tire casing (under its tread) to see that the massage
> will cause it to turn to mm sized confetti.
>
I have no desire to cut up a successfully repaired tube, although I
wouldn't expect to find talcum between the patch and the tube (if that
is where you mean) as I would have sanded and wiped the tube clean
before applying the glue. And do what with a business card? What a
bizzare idea.
> Repeating what the REMA instruction sheet says does not answer these
> question. This is getting to be more and more like religious faith.
>
You must have the wrong person. I am an atheist and believe in evidence-
based bicycle maintenance.
Mike
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Andrew,
I expect that your method worked fine.
For the ~5 minute drying time, see the little clock on step 5 of the
Rema patch carton instructions:
http://i43.tinypic.com/aupgw.jpg
I don't follow the instructions blindly--sometimes I don't wait until
the big hand is on twelve.
Note the dirty fingers shown in step 4. I use the brush built into the
top of the Rema can, but maybe a little grime and sweat would help.
I keep wondering how "dry" or "tacky" the cement-glue-fluid should be
for the best results. Why does it have to dry in the first place? Can
it get too dry or tacky if you wait a few minutes too long?
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
>>> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I
>>> center the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube
>>> around the patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and
>>> white. I place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the
>>> puncture is in the center of the tube on top of the red-white
>>> boundary. I'll hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the
>>> puncture is really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
Well mine isn't and never was, but I found a way to make up for that,
as I explained in a previous response to this thread. Staying close
to the puncture while sanding is reasonably easy and then with a
proper swipe of glue the hole will be visible as a shiny spot when the
tube is stretched because the glue, being fairly tenacious and no
longer liquid, will make a refelctive film, while elsewhere it is
glossy black, the rubber beneath not being reflective.
> By an amazing coincidence, I have a tube with a fresh hole in it
> that may show why Stephen sometimes has trouble keeping track of
> punctures.
> Here's a 640x480 photo, reasonably lit and focused, showing the hole
> after a few swipes with a sanding block:
http://i39.tinypic.com/1to38w.jpg
> The hole is hard to spot, isn't it?
> Here's a larger version of the photo, with a helpful red circle:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/1473_puncture.JPG
> Experience suggests that the hole will be practically invisible
> after I slather some glue on it.
You didn't read my explanation on how to find the hole, but above I
reiterated that just in case.
> So when I patch the tube, I'll wrap it around the round metal arm of
> a bench vise and tuck a toothpick under the stretched rubber,
> pointing toward the hole.
> It beats coming back five minutes later and wondering where the hell
> the tiny puncture went while the glue was drying.
Thanks fo the good picture that reveals that this tube was ridden
shortly after patching and that the patch, sown adjacent to the
current puncture, has lifted into a dome.
Being an inveterate thorn survivor and tire patcher, I hope you can
try the methods I suggested in this thread to avoid lifted patches.
Among the many patched tubes you must have, please cut through one of
those domes to see how well it is still adhered.
I trust Fogel laboratories does good research, so let us kno2 what you
find. Have you tried the business card test (between tube and tire
casing under tread center) to assess the massage a patch experiences?
Ride bike!
Jobst Brandt
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
>>> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I
>>> center the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube
>>> around the patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and
>>> white. I place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the
>>> puncture is in the center of the tube on top of the red-white
>>> boundary. I'll hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the
>>> puncture is really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
Well mine isn't and never was, but I found a way to make up for that,
as I explained in a previous response to this thread. Staying close
to the puncture while sanding is reasonably easy and then with a
proper swipe of glue the hole will be visible as a shiny spot when the
tube is stretched because the glue, being fairly tenacious and no
longer liquid, will make a refelctive film, while elsewhere it is
glossy black, the rubber beneath not being reflective.
> By an amazing coincidence, I have a tube with a fresh hole in it
> that may show why Stephen sometimes has trouble keeping track of
> punctures.
> Here's a 640x480 photo, reasonably lit and focused, showing the hole
> after a few swipes with a sanding block:
http://i39.tinypic.com/1to38w.jpg
> The hole is hard to spot, isn't it?
> Here's a larger version of the photo, with a helpful red circle:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/1473_puncture.JPG
> Experience suggests that the hole will be practically invisible
> after I slather some glue on it.
You didn't read my explanation on how to find the hole, but above I
reiterated that just in case.
> So when I patch the tube, I'll wrap it around the round metal arm of
> a bench vise and tuck a toothpick under the stretched rubber,
> pointing toward the hole.
> It beats coming back five minutes later and wondering where the hell
> the tiny puncture went while the glue was drying.
Thanks fo the good picture that reveals that this tube was ridden
shortly after patching and that the patch, sown adjacent to the
current puncture, has lifted into a dome.
Being an inveterate thorn survivor and tire patcher, I hope you can
try the methods I suggested in this thread to avoid lifted patches.
Among the many patched tubes you must have, please cut through one of
those domes to see how well it is still adhered.
I trust Fogel laboratories does good research, so let us know what you
andre...@aol.com
I just mark it with a pen or something and draw a circle around it.
when I sand it and the ink wears of, I may do another marking with a
pen.
(PeteCresswell)
>What's the best patch kit to use in the context of a daily commuter or
>moderate distance (20-40 miles) recreational rider?
I don't know either.
But, from experience, I'm looking for something where - if it's
been sitting unused in my bag for two years, I won't find the
tube of glue's gone dry.
I wonder if this is a back-handed argument for at least a few
stick-ons against that unhappy event. Got glue, do it right.
Glue gone, use the stick-ons and write off the tube.
--
PeteCresswell
datakoll
sun in a cool place, ice it before opening if possible.
to recap and store: cut/tear a piece of poly grocery bag or Home Depot
bag/Sears/Wal to fit over tube nozzle and threads.
squeeze air out of tube with glue flowing out, squeeze continuosly,
mash poly over nozzle and continue squeezing while screwing cap down
over poly and nozzle.
store in root cellar.
not a bad idea. the glue gooooooz cellar. 4 feet down and cool where
fumes arte contained.
for larger tube squeezing eg GOOP use a pencil or Bic barrel rolled
into the tube bottom.
carl...@comcast.net
>Thanks fo the good picture that reveals that this tube was ridden
>shortly after patching and that the patch, sown adjacent to the
>current puncture, has lifted into a dome.
[snip]
Dear Jobst,
Boy, you really missed that one!
The tube was stretched and the patch applied--instant dome.
Like all my patches, it sat for 24 hours, then went into my spare-tube
box with two dozen other patched tubes, where it waited for about six
months before being used.
Your other comments, snipped, were equally mistaken.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
datakoll
cheers
Tom Sherman
> spring has not come to the high plains
>
> cheers
>
Beers.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
Bill Sornson
Deep BS
jim beam
just pump the tube a little - the hole soon shows itself then. deflate
and apply patch.
jim beam
> Carl Fogel wrote:
>
>>>> It's sometimes difficult to keep track of a puncture after it's
>>>> found. My technique is to use a small Rema patch kit box. I
>>>> center the hole side-to- side and then place the flattened tube
>>>> around the patch kit box. The Rema patch kit box label is red and
>>>> white. I place the puncture on the red- white boundary. So the
>>>> puncture is in the center of the tube on top of the red-white
>>>> boundary. I'll hold the tube in place with a clothes pin. If the
>>>> puncture is really small, I'll enlarge it with a toothpick.
>
>>> I don't find this such a difficult task as you make it seem. My
>>> eyesight is still good enough to recognize the hole around which I
>>> sand the tube to a dull finish.
>
> Well mine isn't and never was,
does that explain your failure to observe important details???
> but I found a way to make up for that,
yeah, make shit up!
so why don't mine do that then jobst??? is it because i wait for the
glue to dry like it says in the instructions???
>
> Being an inveterate thorn survivor and tire patcher, I hope you can
> try the methods I suggested in this thread to avoid lifted patches.
> Among the many patched tubes you must have, please cut through one of
> those domes to see how well it is still adhered.
er, jobst, fogel's had extensive correspondence with you on this subject
in the past. why do you not acknowledge it? is it because it
contradicts you? [rhetorical]
>
> I trust Fogel laboratories does good research, so let us kno2 what you
> find. Have you tried the business card test (between tube and tire
> casing under tread center) to assess the massage a patch experiences?
>
> Ride bike!
>
that's it jobst - keep sucking up and you might find someone that
doesn't laugh at your ridiculous mistakes and imagination.
jim beam
> carl...@comcast.net considered Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:23:13 -0600 the
> bit I'm going to patch, but each side of it like:
>
> |
> |
>
>
> --- ---
>
>
> |
> |
>
>
> That.
> On the road, I have a small wax pencil in the kit, but it doesn't show
> as well as marker.
> Then I abrade the area in between, apply the solution, and it's easy
> to see where the marks point for placing the patch centrally over the
> hole.
> You can even mark the tube this way by using the sandpaper, and
> folding the tube.
10 points - that is indeed the best way to do it.
jim beam
he doesn't even need to change his mind - he just needs to stop
bullshitting!
it's real simple - if you don't know something, either stfu or ask
questions, don't just make shit up!
Michael Press
Phil W Lee <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote:
> carl...@comcast.net considered Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:23:13 -0600 the
> perfect time to write:
>
> I mark them with marker pen when I'm doing them at home - not on the
> bit I'm going to patch, but each side of it like:
>
> |
> |
>
>
> --- ---
>
>
> |
> |
>
>
> That.
> On the road, I have a small wax pencil in the kit, but it doesn't show
> as well as marker.
> Then I abrade the area in between, apply the solution, and it's easy
> to see where the marks point for placing the patch centrally over the
> hole.
> You can even mark the tube this way by using the sandpaper, and
> folding the tube.
I do that. Seldom patch on the road, and do not carry a marker.
--
Michael Press
andre...@aol.com
Dear Carl, Jobst, Jim, Nick, and everyone else:
I've been patching tubes for a long time. As I have mentioned before,
many of my tubes have several patches. I usually buy cheap auto tube
patches and with a piece of patch a can cut little pieces and keep
patching tubes forever. I also cut rema patches into little pieces. I
can get four pathces out of a small rema patch.
Anyways, after various dissertations and counter-dissertations, I
realize that I have been doing this all wrong. In fact, I realize that
I have been running on flat tires all this time since it is not
possible for my patches to stay put with all the things that I've done
wrong. No wonder i go so slow and my bike is so hard to manuver.
BTW, instead of buying little tubes of cement, I bought a big can many
years ago. It never dries out and it has a brush applicator. If you do
a lot of patching, I highly recommend it. It will save you a lot of
grief. No dried little tubes ever again. the brush applicator save
your little pinky.
Of course you can't take the can on the road, but I always take two
spare tubes. After these flat, I'll tie a knot around the flat and go
bump bump bump until I get home.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Thanks for the good picture that reveals that this tube was ridden
>> shortly after patching and that the patch, sown adjacent to the
>> current puncture, has lifted into a dome.
> [snip]
> Boy, you really missed that one!
> The tube was stretched and the patch applied--instant dome.
OK, I was wrong, jumping to conclusion not knowing your unorthodox
patching method on an inflated tube. By the way, how do you press the
patch on against the soft backing of an inner tube inflated a couple
of psi (stretched)? Of course the surface of an unconstrained tube
expands in length and width, unlike what it does on inflation inside a
tire where it stretches only in width, tire massage making up for the
rest, to delaminate the patch radially.
> Like all my patches, it sat for 24 hours, then went into my
> spare-tube box with two dozen other patched tubes, where it waited
> for about six months before being used.
Well, then the patch in the picture should be hard to remove, but
cutting through one of these domed patches should reveal what is under
the dome. Can Fogel labs determine what that is. It is possible that
there is full adhesion if the tube remained inflated and unused long
enough for the patch to cure. I'm still interested what you find
under the dome but if the curing time is as you imply, it should be
firmly attached.
> Your other comments, snipped, were equally mistaken.
Which ones were those and why?
Jobst Brandt
Nick L Plate
> In article <88bd2a20-56fd-4151-8e02-09401aaed8d6
> @v28g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, tj-j...@blueyonder.co.uk says...
If your patching regularly, you'll know how long it will take, without
having to check because you always check in the light. And do you
always ride witout a front light?
TJ
Peter Cole
I pump air into the tube when I'm sanding it down & applying the glue.
The escaping air will make a little froth, making the location easy to
spot to center the glue & patch.
Peter Cole
> I'm not ignoring anything. I'm usually just trying to get home on a wet
> and windy night after puncturing on a chip of glass from an alco-pop
> bottle that some cretin threw out of a car window. Why on earth would I
> even want to attempt to pull off a patch when all I need to do is apply
> it, stuff the tyre back in the tube, inflate it, and ride home?
Why bother patching at all in those circumstances? Just use a spare tube
& patch at home.
Peter Cole
You can do that (I have), I've found it just as easy to carry 2 spare tubes.
Nick L Plate
Because the patch lines up with the glass chip still lodged in the
tyre which you didn't see, so would therwise puncture the fresh tube
(unless carrying thick tubes for spares).
TJ
John Forrest Tomlinson
<tj-...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Because the patch lines up with the glass chip still lodged in the
>tyre which you didn't see,
Are you serious about this -- is this really a reason you patch
instead of replacing the tube while on the road?
Stephen Bauman
> Why bother patching at all in those circumstances? Just use a spare tube
> & patch at home.
What does one do for the third, fourth or fifth flat before getting home?
A corollary of Murphy's Law states that one can expect at least one more
flat than the number of spare tubes carried.
Stephen Bauman
>
> I pump air into the tube when I'm sanding it down & applying the glue.
> The escaping air will make a little froth, making the location easy to
> spot to center the glue & patch.
I've tried that technique. It's especially useful when a small amount of
the talc on the inside of the tube blows out and spots the hole with a
white dot. However, about 25% of the time that spot disappeared when it
came time to apply the patch.
That's why I decided to line the tube up on a set of "crosshairs" and
lock it in place.