29" mountain bike tires from Vee Rubber?

[Joerg]

Folks,

After only 500 miles the Hutchinson Cobra tire on my 29" MTB rear wheel
is down to less than 50% tread. Considering that it is a $50 tire this
disappoints a bit. The tires on my SUV don't cost much more but last at
least 50 times more miles.

Sooo ... since MTB riders told me that tires pretty much all wear down
fast I am looking for a better bang for the buck and found:

http://www.pricepoint.com/Components/Tires/29er/?page_no=1&fq=price:[10+TO+20]

Reviews that I saw on mtbr.com and other places were generally ok. Or is
there anything I should be concerned about? And which one should I pick?

I am an XC rider, not a downhiller, but I do ride some very gnarly
trails with rock gardens. I still got time since I can switch front and
back, so maybe another 1000mi if lucky but then they'll be really bald
in the center and I think I must replace them before the wet and muddy
season starts here in Northern California. I do not care about weight at
all. What matters is sturdiness (against punctures, rock hits, side wall
scrapes and such), tread wear and price. In that order. Regarding
traction I found that the $12 Maxxis 1040 on my old 26" MTB are not
worse and they show similar tread wear. Unfortunately Maxxis does not
make those in 29".

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Joerg]

For sime reason their links don't work well, maybe this works as an example:

http://www.pricepoint.com/Brand/Vee-Rubber/Vee-Rubber-Flying-V-29x2-20-Folding-Tire.axd

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:23:14 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

(...)
I don't have an answer to your questions, but do have a suggestion.
Get a durometer tester:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/141250852613>
Rule-o-thumb. 70 is hard, 60 is typical, 50 is soft.

I have one that I've been using to measure the hardness of various
rubber bicycle components (and encapsulation compounds). I find that
the harder rubbers tend to last longer, while the really soft rubbers,
that give the most comfortable rides, wear quickly. Some tires have
different durometer readings on different parts of the tread. The
reading will also vary with temperature. If you spin the tires in the
dirt or skid to a halt, the tire will get hot and soften. My guess
(not verified) is that the more rubber in contact with the road, the
longer it will last.

More:
<http://mountainbikefaq.com/2010/02/mountain-bike-tire-compound>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[avag...@gmail.com]

Vapors here. Run on street....Oregooninas took a Big Apple....enjoying that a the first stretch off the driveway in down the grass berm past torists, drunks, various miscreants, headed into Deadman's Tern.

Here the scoop:

http://www.conti-online.com/www/bicycle_de_en/themes/mtb/

tho we feel you pain, you have missed the point @

market rules here, quality control holds the helm. That is, what you bought is a special tire for a niche use...I have no specialknowledge of what that means but this is usually the situation with a 'manufacturer.
That said, as Brandt would write, everyone get it wong but not often or the market will kill their income: no boat.

so if you doahn know...meaning a communications line into the headsup LBS or on the scene racing or club activity, well read in online reviews...informed..

then buying form a major company solves the prob.

the Vapors are not disintegrating on pavement, run down the berms with authority/grip/directional control.

What else would you want ? .378 off the lap time ? what lap time ?

One upon I bought an aluminum chain ring theoretically producing a better lap time around town from the then '78 era Raleigh sport-tourer. Worked grate. You know how that goes.

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 09:23:14 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> (...)
> I don't have an answer to your questions, but do have a suggestion.
> Get a durometer tester:
> <http://www.ebay.com/itm/141250852613>
> Rule-o-thumb. 70 is hard, 60 is typical, 50 is soft.
>

Most modern tires are dual compound. Hard longer-lasting rubber in the
center, soft on the sides for when you hit the trail. However, my
definition of longer-lasting is entirely different from that of the
bicycle industry.

> I have one that I've been using to measure the hardness of various
> rubber bicycle components (and encapsulation compounds). I find that
> the harder rubbers tend to last longer, while the really soft rubbers,
> that give the most comfortable rides, wear quickly. Some tires have
> different durometer readings on different parts of the tread. The
> reading will also vary with temperature. If you spin the tires in the
> dirt or skid to a halt, the tire will get hot and soften. My guess
> (not verified) is that the more rubber in contact with the road, the
> longer it will last.
>

My rear wheel rarely spins and I don't drag it through turns like
competition MTB riders. But I do cycle at a pretty fast clip on trails a
lot, 15mph or more through the rough stuff, mostly to get from A to B in
a reasonable time.


> More:
> <http://mountainbikefaq.com/2010/02/mountain-bike-tire-compound>
>

Not much new info in there, I know that you can't have it all. That's
why I have a priority list and am willing to sacrifice traction for
better durability. What I find disappointing is that bicycle tires are
orders of magnitudes from the tread wear quality of SUV tires yet cost
almost as much or sometimes more.

My MTB isn't only used for fun but also for transport. Though I have to
confess that I occasionally take a detour via a nice trail. This is why
the bike spends most of its time on dirt, riding on asphalt is so boring.

If there isn't any tire with substantially less wear I'll just go the
route of finding the lowest cost tire that does the job and then use
them up one by one. Environmentally that is not a good way of doing
things but what can ya do?

[Joerg]

avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Vapors here. Run on street....Oregooninas took a Big
> Apple....enjoying that a the first stretch off the driveway in down
> the grass berm past torists, drunks, various miscreants, headed into
> Deadman's Tern.
>
> Here the scoop:
>
> http://www.conti-online.com/www/bicycle_de_en/themes/mtb/
>

That has just their offerings. The Trail King looks nice but like the
Cobra it's a $50 tire. I will only spend that much if I know it'll last
way more than 1000mi.

> tho we feel you pain, you have missed the point @
>

What point?

> market rules here, quality control holds the helm. That is, what you
> bought is a special tire for a niche use...

It isn't. The Hutchinson Cobra came stock with the bike and that is an
all-purpose XC tire. Not a niche market.


> ... I have no specialknowledge

> of what that means but this is usually the situation with a
> 'manufacturer. That said, as Brandt would write, everyone get it wong
> but not often or the market will kill their income: no boat.
>
> so if you doahn know...meaning a communications line into the headsup
> LBS or on the scene racing or club activity, well read in online
> reviews...informed..
>
> then buying form a major company solves the prob.
>

I am sure that is does not solve the problem. My tires are from a major
company and have a good reputation. Many mountain bikers told me that
such a lifetime is normal out here. If that is indeed true then I am
going to need cheaper tires that do the same kind of job.

> the Vapors are not disintegrating on pavement, run down the berms
> with authority/grip/directional control.
>
> What else would you want ? .378 off the lap time ? what lap time ?
>
> One upon I bought an aluminum chain ring theoretically producing a
> better lap time around town from the then '78 era Raleigh
> sport-tourer. Worked grate. You know how that goes.
>

That probably would not last through the end of the year on my MTB :-)

But I do have aluminum chain rings on my 80's road bike. Shimano 600,
had it all custom built in the 80's, and only the good stuff.

[avag...@gmail.com]

'It isn't. The Hutchinson Cobra came stock with the bike and that is an
all-purpose XC tire. Not a niche market.'

I would disagree. The bike factory stuck you with soft compound tires enhancing bike's performance image.

Univerals Cycles titre wall boggles. Tread tread tread variations....work the designs over in your head....you'll see there's an iron for every fairway or trying to get there. But one size doahn fit all.

hmmm where's the wet red clay subase tread ?

1000 miles ? knobbies cut.lotta knobby designs.Ifn the knobs loose a sharp edge then the design effectiveness/performance in grip goes down down down.

so 1000 miles is imposseblay.

tire life depends more on the cyclist/mechanic than the factory. Are the wheels always TRUE ? bearings TIGHT ? are you scrubbing corners, spinning rear without caws ?

but there's Pirelli....know several drivers mention Pirelli n they convulse. I have a grudge on Michelin for designing a tread locks up in puddles zzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng it went. deadly. cars in ravines all over north yurp. then there's Badrich.....

Conti TT went from back sidewalls to brown 'gumwalls' losing weight carrying capacity to gain response which was that Conti expletive deleted an outstanding tire.

[avag...@gmail.com]

current tire question here is how wide ?

first rides with a Redline steel cyclocrosser mounted a 2.4 ? Schwlabe BA on rear for soft surface floating. The BA was a boat anchor. Was stolen by said oregoonians.

Mounted a 2.1 Vapor. Good.

Now looking find 47c tires at 1.65.\

Need to check the rim see if that width mounts a 1.65.

I feel squirrely thinking abt it

.5 inch loss with .25 rubber contact gain ?

My head is locked into big rubber.

[Joerg]

avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> 'It isn't. The Hutchinson Cobra came stock with the bike and that is
> an all-purpose XC tire. Not a niche market.'
>
> I would disagree. The bike factory stuck you with soft compound tires
> enhancing bike's performance image.
>

Nope. The center knobs are 50 shore A, only the side ones are 42
durometer. The underlayment is 60. That is not a soft tire.

> Univerals Cycles titre wall boggles. Tread tread tread
> variations....work the designs over in your head....you'll see
> there's an iron for every fairway or trying to get there. But one
> size doahn fit all.
>
> hmmm where's the wet red clay subase tread ?
>
> 1000 miles ? knobbies cut.lotta knobby designs.Ifn the knobs loose a
> sharp edge then the design effectiveness/performance in grip goes
> down down down.
>
> so 1000 miles is imposseblay.
>

Looks like they will give me 1000 miles, but barely. I don't care so
much about top performance as long as they don't slip too much on gnarly
uphills and so far, at 40-50% of remaining tread, they don't.

How many miles do you get and on what tires?

> tire life depends more on the cyclist/mechanic than the factory. Are
> the wheels always TRUE ? bearings TIGHT ? are you scrubbing corners,
> spinning rear without caws ?
>
> but there's Pirelli....know several drivers mention Pirelli n they
> convulse. I have a grudge on Michelin for designing a tread locks up
> in puddles zzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng it went. deadly. cars
> in ravines all over north yurp. then there's Badrich.....
>
> Conti TT went from back sidewalls to brown 'gumwalls' losing weight
> carrying capacity to gain response which was that Conti expletive
> deleted an outstanding tire.

I just want a tire that lasts a long time. Or, if not available, one
that is cheaper and has similar performance. Hence my peek into what Vee
Rubber has to offer.

[Joerg]

Depends on where you ride. For me a 1.65" would definitely be worse than
2.1" because I have to ride a lot of gravel paths. That gravel can be
anything between what they have on railroad beds to "loose boulders". A
1.65" would hopelessly sink in just like most Cyclocross tires would.

You'll brobably also see a lot of downsides in mud, once winter sets in
we've got a lot of that.

[John B. Slocomb]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:22:29 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

Amazon sells 29 x 2.1" off the road tires for 8.60 quid.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[avag...@gmail.com]

a 1.6 or + would be the road replacement for two Vapor 2.1 in the bag. I'll do the 1.6 n see what...


How far ? not far. I stopped commuting/touring without an IC vehicle abt 67 years ago. During the ten year bicycle time...we can ride 365 here no prob...semi tropical...I carried gear or supplies. Conti TT went @700 miles...Messengers maybe 1000 tops. I ran maybe 3-4 tires not more than 50 miles before coming to an end.

With a new van n different upscale mobile priorities, the cyclocrosser is an accoutrement to boots and kayak.

My opinion is an extra 20 bucks for top line tire is well spent. Tires are the connection not a CF frame.

Gravel is a PITA. A schwalbe is a good gravel tire ? turns like a boat anchor too much grippo. There are gravel races for ???? reasons...I should look.

My delight with the cyclocrosser geometry plateaued high when finding the crosser would bomb across the hill bottom gravity fed gravel pits without much expertise from the rider...just zoooom thru the rocks.

Before the Raleigh on 32c would thrown me down

[Joerg]

avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> a 1.6 or + would be the road replacement for two Vapor 2.1 in the
> bag. I'll do the 1.6 n see what...
>
>
> How far ? not far. I stopped commuting/touring without an IC vehicle
> abt 67 years ago. During the ten year bicycle time...we can ride 365
> here no prob...semi tropical...I carried gear or supplies. Conti TT
> went @700 miles...Messengers maybe 1000 tops. I ran maybe 3-4 tires
> not more than 50 miles before coming to an end.
>

Not sure what an IC vehicle is but stopped commuting 67 years ago? Wow!

> With a new van n different upscale mobile priorities, the
> cyclocrosser is an accoutrement to boots and kayak.
>
> My opinion is an extra 20 bucks for top line tire is well spent.
> Tires are the connection not a CF frame.
>

$20 more for a tire that lasts only 700-1000mi? No way.

> Gravel is a PITA. A schwalbe is a good gravel tire ? turns like a
> boat anchor too much grippo. There are gravel races for ????
> reasons...I should look.
>
> My delight with the cyclocrosser geometry plateaued high when finding
> the crosser would bomb across the hill bottom gravity fed gravel pits
> without much expertise from the rider...just zoooom thru the rocks.
>
> Before the Raleigh on 32c would thrown me down
>

A crosser would result in major back pain or nasty crashes out here.
Here is why:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/estavista3.JPG
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal2.jpg

Those are some of my normal "roads". Not so much for fun rides but also
to get from A to B. Plus the gravel ones along an old rail bed which I
often travel at 15-20mph.

Sometimes "bigger gravel":

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/PineHill2.JPG

[Joerg]

John B. Slocomb wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 10:22:29 -0700, Joerg <inv...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> avag...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

>>> tire life depends more on the cyclist/mechanic than the factory. Are
>>> the wheels always TRUE ? bearings TIGHT ? are you scrubbing corners,
>>> spinning rear without caws ?
>>>
>>> but there's Pirelli....know several drivers mention Pirelli n they
>>> convulse. I have a grudge on Michelin for designing a tread locks up
>>> in puddles zzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng it went. deadly. cars
>>> in ravines all over north yurp. then there's Badrich.....
>>>
>>> Conti TT went from back sidewalls to brown 'gumwalls' losing weight
>>> carrying capacity to gain response which was that Conti expletive
>>> deleted an outstanding tire.
>>
>> I just want a tire that lasts a long time. Or, if not available, one
>> that is cheaper and has similar performance. Hence my peek into what Vee
>> Rubber has to offer.
>
> Amazon sells 29 x 2.1" off the road tires for 8.60 quid.

Do you have a link? I could not find a deal even close to what
Pricepoint offers at Amazon. It has to be dual compound or at least
harder single compound. Any single compound super-tacky will not even
last 500 miles out here.

[Andre Jute]

I don't know about cheap tyres, Joerg; those I had years ago from the LBS lasted the same thousand miles you're getting. But I've had excellent luck with Schwalbe tyres. My current set of Big Apple Liteskins have 7500km on them, and will definitely see 10k in kilometers, over 6000 miles, which makes them economical, though the initial purchase isn't cheap. Guys on another conference where I hang out are well satisfied with the durability of Schwalbe's Dureme and Supreme.

Andre Jute

[Joerg]

Andre Jute wrote:
> I don't know about cheap tyres, Joerg;

Well, if the bicycle tire industry can't get a decently durable tire
together I will go by price and if that works the mainstraem
manufacturers won't see me back as a customer.

those I had years ago from the
> LBS lasted the same thousand miles you're getting. But I've had
> excellent luck with Schwalbe tyres. My current set of Big Apple
> Liteskins have 7500km on them, and will definitely see 10k in
> kilometers, over 6000 miles, which makes them economical, though the
> initial purchase isn't cheap.

They aren't really MTB tires though, not for the tough turf or powdered
clay like we have a lot. Price isn't so bad if one waits out a sale.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/schwalbe-big-apple-liteskin-bike-tyre-raceguard/rp-prod70854

I don't necessarily need knobs. The Maxxis on my old MTB don't have them
in the middle and are just fine. But I do need a litle deeper tread than
on these Schwalbe tires.


> ... Guys on another conference where I hang

> out are well satisfied with the durability of Schwalbe's Dureme and
> Supreme.
>

Those are Cyclocross tires. What I need is "SUV tires for bicycles".
BEcause my SUV tires last forever and handle well in mud and rocky turf.
My MTB tires also handle that very well but their lifetime is almost two
orders of magnitude lower. I can't believe that the difference in
durability has top be that extreme.

[...]

[avag...@gmail.com]

6-7 YEARS, internal combustion..

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php?action=search2

MTbr forms wouldn't search 'tires'

most 'trails' like your photos were picked free of rocks at least as a line of travel.

looks like a hard knobby but not too many and spaced laterally and radially so there a knob for a rock surface not multi knobbs float over rocks...need some grip there...or maybe you want float ?

local Walmart..and the area is deserted in summer now...sports a coupla Pugsly type bikes in bike shop.

[Joerg]

avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> 6-7 YEARS, internal combustion..
>
> http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php?action=search2
>
> MTbr forms wouldn't search 'tires'
>

mtbr.com has many reviews.

> most 'trails' like your photos were picked free of rocks at least as
> a line of travel.
>

Definitely not around here. A normal day in paradise out here, a very
typical trail, with my old MTB:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/PineHill1.JPG

Those Maxxis tires are great and also cheap at about $12 a pop. I sure
wish they made them in 29".

> looks like a hard knobby but not too many and spaced laterally and
> radially so there a knob for a rock surface not multi knobbs float
> over rocks...need some grip there...or maybe you want float ?
>

Sparsely knobbed tires is pretty much all you get in the world of 29"
tires. The 26" world is much better equipped, see link above.

> local Walmart..and the area is deserted in summer now...sports a
> coupla Pugsly type bikes in bike shop.

When buying a pump I saw a fat bike at Walmart. But it was single-speed
and didn't have disc brakes, so not very useful on our trails. More like
a beach bike.

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://goo.gl/KwgmYi

[Joerg]

avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://goo.gl/KwgmYi

There I only get the Google main page.

I no longer use Google but this engine:

https://duckduckgo.com/html

[avag...@gmail.com]

duckduck....yes, a world leader in search engines


https://www.google.com/#q=design+of+mtb+knobby+tires

[AMuzi]

On 7/26/2014 5:43 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> duckduck....yes, a world leader in search engines
>
>
> https://www.google.com/#q=design+of+mtb+knobby+tires
>

Gene, some people, yes me too, do not use gurgle and do not
click your links with a gurgle address.

Or, as Goebbels would have said, "we aren't evil. really.
trust us".

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[avag...@gmail.com]

>
> trust us".

Andy, you know I have immense problems with Googles minions. The horde at Utube is as illegal as XM/Sirius. I cannot use audio. Constant harassment with audio ditto XM as the attached mindreaders, Madame Lorenzo Palms Red....direct.

Same deal as the navy yard shooter....good job and generating too many alpha waves so they killed him and he fought back

But the software technology is superb, fantastic tools.

Remember my objections to getting cut off...prime example here was Leeds and the London Museum bombing...cut off by Madame Lorenzo inside Google

9-11 9-11 9-11...I asked the NYT who demurred, yellow liberal assholes....caws day haf internal problems...eg no balls.

The obstruction stopped..after a march to the FCC and various big tools.

Snoden, whines abt NSA where damages are scarce but here we have catastrophy n no internal controls.

butbutbut thatsnot, as with Snoden, the man on the street like everyone else here. No more than Proctor and Gamble.

Not evil as an everyday problem. Not that WW3 isn't an everyday problem but...

[avag...@gmail.com]

............

how can you analyze duckduck as non evil. Maybe duckduck is Google ?

[avag...@gmail.com]

how can you analyze duckduck as non evil. Maybe duckduck is Google ?

is YJ accepting Gmail ?

I dunno....admit the bot horde ? the Trojan byte ? yigods dude !