generators for dummies

[avag...@gmail.com]

http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/2/2015 7:42 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
>

But will anyone read it? Several posting here could learn a lot.
And they'd learn even more from reading the more current follow-up
article at:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/feature-hub-dynamos.pdf

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 5:37:38 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/2/2015 7:42 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
> >
>
> But will anyone read it? Several posting here could learn a lot.

Good luck with finding any generator listed in that article. Most haven't been on the market for fifteen years or so. Some of those gennies were obsolete before the test was conducted.

Next problem is that that is another of dear Andreas Oehler's tests, absolutely nothing independent about it; it is straight-up propaganda for Wilfried Schmittt Maschinenbau, makers of SON, Oehler's employers.

It isn't only those fifteen years, and some necessary independence that you're short here, Franki-boy. The thing is that the electrification of bikes has essentially overtaken generators. It's been five or six years since I had a gennie on my bike; it has been replaced with a 36V battery. Granted, it's not a like for like replacement, and I don't actually expect a reactionary like you to grasp that it is a replacement, but mark my words and in five years when it is obvious even to you I'll remind you of my prediction.

> And they'd learn even more from reading the more current follow-up
> article at:
> http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/feature-hub-dynamos.pdf
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Another Andreas Oehler special. We know Daniels is an idiot incapable of making moral distinctions, but we expect better from you than this, Franki-boy, since you're always pretending you have a right to tell others what to do. Would you recommend a test conducted by Shimano employees with Shimano-developed test equipment in which Shimano products ae tested against the the products of other manufacturers? But that's exactly what you're doing here. Why should Germans be excused the same publicity-crime?

Andre Jute
Relentless rigor -- Gaius Germanicus

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 03.03.2015 um 08:05 schrieb Andre Jute:
> On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 5:37:38 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> And they'd learn even more from reading the more current follow-up
>> article at:
>> http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/feature-hub-dynamos.pdf

> Another Andreas Oehler special.

> Would you recommend a test conducted by Shimano employees with
> Shimano-developed test equipment in which Shimano products ae tested
> against the the products of other manufacturers?

I would, on the assumption that some experts from Shimano test together
with other experts not belonging to Shimano.

Neither Chris Juden nor Olaf Schulz work for generator companies.

> Why should Germans be excused the same publicity-crime?

The German 'Stiftung Warentest' has shown how ludicrous testing becomes
if the tester is honest but refuses to collaborate with industry
experts: if you don't know what is meaningful to test, you can stop
testing immediately.

[Andre Jute]

So, according to you, Chris Juden and Olaf Schulz are "honest but...don't know what is meaningful to test". Implying that Oehler is leading them around by the nose is quite a bit further than I went, Rolf. I don't know Juden and Schulz, I have no reason to believe they are either dishonest or stupid (quite the contrary from what I have seen of them), and it is my express opinion that Oehler is too uptight to be dishonest. You're on your own here, pal; my opinion stops very sharply at where the methodology and personnel of these tests is unprofessional and unseemly, with the unseemliness being in my book by far the greater sin.

The last time these suspect tests came up, the German excuse was that a small *German" magazine was too poor to own the equipment to conduct the tests, to which the answer was that no test at all is better than a test so dominated by one *local* manufacturer by its input of equipment and personnel.

Now the German excuse, if you're rendering it faithfully, is that the operators of and writers for a *German* magazine (and a well-known British cycling journalist into the bargain!) are so incompetent that they require not only the Schmitt Maschienenbau test equipment but the direction (and we know from which direction that SON will shine!) of the Schmidt Maschienenbau engineer, Andeas Oehler.

In that case, why are they on the test at all, except as window-dressing for Oehler's promotion of his employer's generators? Which, I remind you, is what I said in the first instance.

One has to wonder what the excuse will be the next time Kareless Krygo trots out these toxic articles.

Andre Jute

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 03.03.2015 um 10:18 schrieb Andre Jute:
> On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 8:40:02 AM UTC, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 03.03.2015 um 08:05 schrieb Andre Jute:
>>> On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 5:37:38 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> And they'd learn even more from reading the more current
>>>> follow-up article at:
>>>> http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/public/feature-hub-dynamos.pdf
>>
>>> Another Andreas Oehler special.
>>
>>> Would you recommend a test conducted by Shimano employees with
>>> Shimano-developed test equipment in which Shimano products ae
>>> tested against the the products of other manufacturers?
>>
>> I would, on the assumption that some experts from Shimano test
>> together with other experts not belonging to Shimano.
>>
>> Neither Chris Juden nor Olaf Schulz work for generator companies.
>>
>>> Why should Germans be excused the same publicity-crime?
>>
>> The German 'Stiftung Warentest' has shown how ludicrous testing
>> becomes if the tester is honest but refuses to collaborate with
>> industry experts: if you don't know what is meaningful to test,
>> you can stop testing immediately.
>
> So, according to you, Chris Juden and Olaf Schulz are "honest
> but...don't know what is meaningful to test".

No, they know how to test, and they do test. They (at least Andreas
Oehler and Olaf Schulz) do regularly discuss their ideas.

> Implying that Oehler is leading them around by the nose is quite a
> bit further than I went, Rolf.

It's also a lot further than I went.

> my opinion stops very
> sharply at where the methodology and personnel of these tests is
> unprofessional and unseemly, with the unseemliness being in my book
> by far the greater sin.

This is where we differ: Being unprofessional means not to build the
best test rig that you can think of. Being unseemly means staying in
close contact with the manufacturer of equipment to be tested.

Given that there is one person who knows a lot more about testing drag
on bicycle dynamoes than the rest of the world, I can either be
unprofessional by not talking to him or unseemly by talking to him.
Given the choice between unprofessional and unseemly, being
unprofessional is by far the greater sin.

> The last time these suspect tests came up, the German excuse was
> that a small *German" magazine was too poor to own the equipment to
> conduct the tests, to which the answer was that no test at all is
> better than a test so dominated by one *local* manufacturer by its
> input of equipment and personnel.

This time round, the test rigs were build by Olaf Schulz, and still
you're not happy.

> In that case, why are they on the test at all, except as
> window-dressing for Oehler's promotion of his employer's generators?
> Which, I remind you, is what I said in the first instance.

Chris Juden as 'technical editor' of the CTC is the author responsible
for chosing what tests to write, how and with whom to execute the tests
and how to present the result. Olaf Schulz (whose main expertise in
bicycles is with testing lights rather than hubs) had built the test rig
and executed the majority of the tests.

[avag...@gmail.com]

On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 7:42:23 PM UTC-5, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html

**************************0

myra-simon was first up


As wit the LED symposseium there are pages into 'read associated texts' demands from OUR PROVIDOR subtly condensed into a statement or two...

Lookee here >>>>>>>>

https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+generator+testing&biw=1205&bih=659&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7LP1VKvKK9iryASfnIHgBg&ved=0CDAQsAQ

Shimano testing was revealing...what goes there ? a midrange report with a low worldclass price/reliability but reverse drag effects ?

https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+generator+testing&biw=1205&bih=659&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7LP1VKvKK9iryASfnIHgBg&ved=0CDAQsAQ

JB's reports clearly show a development area for the US market. I'm thinking these devices are in a cost/tech/market area that is developable to market perfection that is for JB.

Somewhere in the DIY images group....

My electropath went retro...lead acid rechargeable, mil spec truck batt, Kevlar mobiolespeakers and finding Ford's alternator barely adequate for using lights. Arriving there finding a 200amp aftermarket available.

At that time, 2008..Chevy's van was woeful>AC was a big deal but following they're trip around the abyss, there's a 145amp unit and a limited slip diff...145 powering everything standard with spare amps.

'That's' ol' American Auto Design...no one moves until they have guns to the head.

THEN THEY MOVE OFFSHORE

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 5:32:52 AM UTC-8, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 7:42:23 PM UTC-5, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> JB's reports clearly show a development area for the US market. I'm thinking these devices are in a cost/tech/market area that is developable to market perfection that is for JB.

Huh? I don't think there is developable market for dynos in the U.S. unless StVZO is mandated or dynos come OEM on some national-standard commuting bike. REI sold a uber-commuter with a dyno and then quit, and now it sells the same bike with Lezyne 500 lumen battery light.

I don't even see a retro market since the boomers don't have any warm and fuzzy feelings about dynos -- and neither do their kids, even if you put a headphone jack on it. There would have to be a huge cultural shift before dynos sold like hot-cakes in the US of A. Maybe the EPA will ban batteries, or the People's Democratic Republic of Portland. We got rid of plastic bags, maybe Big Dyno could engineer a battery coup.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Jute seems ignorant of the fact that others have also tested dynamos,
with no significant differences in results. I've read reports of tests
in Bicycle Quarterly (whose editor did confer with Mr. Oehler) and in
the Rivendell Reader (whose editor did not confer with him). I've done
tests of my own, as well.

Jute maintains a trove of shit that he repeatedly slings, but it's
devoid of any technical merit. If he were interested in giving
(purportedly) more accurate data on dynamo performance - say, proving
that OMIGOD! a SON unit actually has half a Watt more drag! - he would
post links to tests showing that data and carrying the Jute imprimatur.
That's how these things are normally settled in the scientific world.
Such data would advance the discussion and make the shit slinging even
less necessary.

I suspect that at one time or another, Andreas Oehler caught Jute in a
lie, and will therefore be the target of Juteshit until Jute dies.

BTW, I've never owned a SON dynamo, so I don't write this out of brand
loyalty. My two hub dynamos are by Shimano and Sturmey-Archer, and my
other bikes have either bottle or roller dynamos. They all work fine
for me.

One final technical point: In these days of LED headlights, I find it
strange that the a 12 Ohm load is still considered standard. It's a
fairly appropriate stand-in for a halogen lamp, but does it really
replicate the load of LED units?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

''''''*''''''''''***''''

I get the idea there is one RBT poster without dyno tho I had 2 bottles from the dumpster not generating...

there's the market

http://goo.gl/SS4iYk

[avag...@gmail.com]

IN THE FRENCH QUARTER ?

http://goo.gl/noAiKe

NICE HEADLAMP !

http://www.nabendynamo.de/english/

http://goo.gl/BaivwZ

Wilfried Schmidt Maschinenbau
Aixer Straße 44
D-72072 Tübingen
.................
Of which I'm dimly aware...alleged development rest on basic electric fundamentals...not easily advanced

[jbeattie]

My understanding is that the 12 Ohm load test is required by German standards and probably doesn't replicate much of anything currently on the market. As you know, and SMS pointed out recently, the US standard for auto headlights (also based on the properties of a filament bulb) allows ungodly bright LED and Halogen low-beams.

-- Jay Beattie.

[avag...@gmail.com]

'allows ungodly bright LED and Halogen low-beams.'


that said, here's the receptionist

http://i.imgur.com/moegwjN.jpgE

[AMuzi]

Hey I know that image. Storyville, New Orleans.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Andre Jute]

No, I don't want to indulge in mudslinging against two hobby journalists whose crime is naivety rather than malice.

After all this to and fro, the point is still that in competitive tests of the generators if several manufacturers, any "assistance" in either loans of equipment finetuned to Schmidt Maschinenbau/SON-desired parameters, or any "consulting" with the SON engineer Andreas Oehler with his known biases, is journalistically unprofessional, technically biased, and commercially unseemly. The argument that to get a test at all we must accept unprofessional journalism, technical bias and commercial skullduggery was bullshit when the first test was done and is bullshit now, totally unacceptable.

At any national journal this whole affair would instantly be described as unprincipled and unfair to everyone except Oehler's employers. I am flabbergasted that, after it has dragged on so long, we find Oehler still involved in what should be independent tests.

Andre Jute
There are some worthwhile principles, even in hobby journalism

[avag...@gmail.com]

oo oo oo oo

cugnot find a French whore holding a lantern or flashlight.

[avag...@gmail.com]

...................

cmon AJ read thru the material

here's Berto A

http://hackaday.com/2013/04/23/rattle-generator-is-a-new-type-of-dynamo-for-a-bicycle/#more-97721

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 4:51:44 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Jute maintains a trove of shit that he repeatedly slings, but it's
> devoid of any technical merit.

If you were a proper engineer rather than a jumped-up welder, Franki-boy, or you had any product development experience such as one would expect on the CV of any worthwhile engineer, you would not need to be told that tests conducted with one manufacturer's lab equipment introduces the bias of his aims, ideals and product development parameters, and thus skews the results.

> I suspect that at one time or another, Andreas Oehler caught Jute in a
> lie, and will therefore be the target of Juteshit until Jute dies.

Typical of what this poor dumb fuck Frank Krygowski considers a meaningful argument. Poor Franki-boy is quite incapable of considering an argument on moral and professional grounds because he has no morality, nor any concept of professional standards.

Let's get down to cases. You've failed for a decade to prove I ever told a single lie, Frank Krygowski*, so now you claim someone else "caught Jute in a lie". So produce Oehler and let him share this accusation with us, if he ever made it. Or stand up before all of us, Frank Krygoswki, as a peasant scumball, false accuser, and liar.

You're slime, Frank Krygowski.

Andre Jute
*WTF should I bother to lie to a pissant peasant like Krygowski whom I've publicly treated with contempt, and called "scum" for a decade or more?

Nothing further from me in this post.

Here's the whole tepid, turgid sewer of Frank Krygowski's mind exposed for all to see:

[Andre Jute]

If you go back to the days when the typical car on German roads was an Opel Kadet with dim 6V filament lighting, then this German law, which has deformed so much bicycle lighting around the world, was backwards-looking even when it was made. The purpose was for bicyclists to be subservient in their lighting to motorists; bicycles were very definitely seen as the poverty-choice.

Andre Jute

[John B. Slocomb]

On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:12:20 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/3/2015 12:23 PM, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 'allows ungodly bright LED and Halogen low-beams.'
>>
>>
>> that said, here's the receptionist
>>
>> http://i.imgur.com/moegwjN.jpgE
>>
>
>Hey I know that image. Storyville, New Orleans.

Good Lord, and here I thought it was a "selfie" that Jute posted :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/3/2015 5:57 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> After all this to and fro, the point is still that in competitive tests
of the generators if several manufacturers, any "assistance" in either
loans
of equipment finetuned to Schmidt Maschinenbau/SON-desired parameters,
or any
"consulting" with the SON engineer Andreas Oehler with his known biases, is
journalistically unprofessional, technically biased, and commercially
unseemly.

How about replacing the slander with some technical content?

The articles I've read described two different, and very reasonable,
methods for the pertinent measurements. In one case, digital data
acquisition equipment was used to measure the dynamo-caused deceleration
of a weighted wheel driven up to speed by a motor. In the other case,
the dynamo body was rotated by external power and a torque arm used to
measure the resulting drag.

How would you have done it, and why would your method be better?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

On 04/03/15 02:51, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>
> One final technical point: In these days of LED headlights, I find it
> strange that the a 12 Ohm load is still considered standard. It's a
> fairly appropriate stand-in for a halogen lamp, but does it really
> replicate the load of LED units?
>

At one point on the V-I curve of each dynamo, yes, that being where the
dynamo produces 6V rms across the load of 12ohms and delivers 3W.

(Assuming the switch mode supply used to power the LED will try to
deliver 3W to the LED.)

--
JS

[Andre Jute]

You claimed Oehler caught me in a lie, Krygowski. Now prove it, you lying slimeball. Or apologize to both Andeas Oehler and me for libelling both of us. (You really are an ignoramus, Krygowski. "Slander" is talk; the word for the written and published crap you vomit is libel.)

But we know you won't apologize. You keep screeching about lies, and have for about ten years now, but you've never been able to prove a single lie. And nor have you apologized for your vicious behavior. Have you ever wondered why not a single voice was raised while I consistently described you as slime and treated you with public contempt? It is because everyone knows you're guilty as charged.

Andre Jute

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/3/2015 11:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> You claimed Oehler caught me in a lie, Krygowski. Now prove it, you lying slimeball.
Or apologize to both Andeas Oehler and me for libelling both of us.

I merely said that I _suspect_ that was the reason for your
shitslinging, Andre. Of course, I may be wrong. There are many other
possible reasons for it. I doubt any of them have would seem valid to a
reasonable person.

> (You really are an ignoramus, Krygowski. "Slander" is talk; the word
for the written and published crap you vomit is libel.)

Correction accepted. So how about replacing the libel against Mr.
Oehler with some some technical content?

The articles I've read described two different, and very reasonable,
methods for the pertinent measurements. In one case, digital data
acquisition equipment was used to measure the dynamo-caused deceleration
of a weighted wheel driven up to speed by a motor. In the other case,
the dynamo body was rotated by external power and a torque arm used to
measure the resulting drag.

How would you have done it, and why would your method be better?

(Apologies to others for the repetition. If Jute has a valid technical
point, we'll get a reasonable technical response. If he spews more
non-tech insults, we'll know it's just Jute as usual.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

So, Frank Krygowski, you admit you told a lie about both me and Andreas Oehler, but instead of apologizing for your lie, you replace it with an indeterminate number of unspecified lies. You're scum, Frank Krygowski.

Andre Jute

On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 5:37:43 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/3/2015 11:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > You claimed Oehler caught me in a lie, Krygowski. Now prove it, you lying slimeball.
> Or apologize to both Andeas Oehler and me for libelling both of us.
>
> I merely said that I _suspect_ that was the reason for your
> shitslinging, Andre. Of course, I may be wrong. There are many other
> possible reasons for it. I doubt any of them have would seem valid to a
> reasonable person.

> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

1. My objection to any article in which the Wilfried Schmidt Maschinenbau employee Andreas Oehler has any influence or input is technical bias, journalistic unprofessionalism on the part of those who permit Oehler's involvement, and commercial and scientific unseemliness. I've said that I wouldn't expect you to understand any of this, Frank Krygowski, because you have no morality and no grasp of professional behaviour beyond your petty personal desires, and so it has proved, three times now.

2. Why should I, or anyone, hold any "technical discussion" with you, Frank Krygowski? You are a cheapskate dumpster diver with bikes 40 years out of date; my daily bike has several components that it is very unlikely you've ever even seen a sample of, and is in any event better developed on every aspect than any bike you own. What can you possibly know about bicycles or bicycling that could be of any use to me that I don't already know? You have no entertainment value and no style; you are a thug and a bully without any redeeming features; you are personally offensive. You are a liar, a bringer of false witness, and a traducer of the reputations of your betters. You're scum, Frank Krygowski. I feel soiled every time you address me.

Andre Jute
"Bad Method + Right Answer = Bad Science"
Dr Wegman of the National Institute for Science
on oath before the United States Senate

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 7:14:07 PM UTC, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Rolf Mantel <> considered Tue, 03 Mar 2015 13:37:54

> Knowing him, I cannot imagine for a moment that Chris Juden would
> allow his name to be used in any research that he did not have
> complete confidence in, and he is extremely technically competent.
> I also find it very unlikely that he would cooperate in research with
> others in whom he did not have a high level of trust, so although I do
> not know either of the other contributors, I'm totally confident in
> Chris's ability to judge the integrity of his co-testers and the
> results produced.

All Juden has done is regurgitate in English an article by Andreas Oehler and Olaf Schultz, thereby lending his own name, and the prestige of the CTC, to a new article that suffers all the debilities of the first one which arise from the lack of independence and the unfairness of having the employee (Oehler) of one of the manufactures (SON) under competitive test involved in the tests. This is at best naive and unprofessional of Juden; it isn't the first time it has happened, so we're very near to describing the process as malignant.

Juden's stamp of approval, presumably given on the assumption that he doesn't have the facilities, knowledge or gumption to set up such a test himself, changes absolutely nothing, except that it makes Juden another suspect, with Oehler and Schultz, in unprofessional and unfair behavior. The latter two are already permanently tainted: Oehler is and was alway unacceptable as a tester of any non-SON hub dynamos, and Schultz by his long association with and defense of Oehler has made himself unacceptable too. Juden should beware that his reputation isn't permanently damaged by his association with them.

That you "trust" Chris Juden is sweet, Phil, but unprofessional behaviour in a journalist isn't redeemed by the "trust" of his partisans, and that Juden says a test is "independent", when it is clearly dependent on Wilfried Schmidt Maschienenbau's equipment and staff, doesn't make it any less of a simple, straightforward lie. A professional principle is a principle regardless of who tries to undermine it, and regardless of who takes the side of the unprofessional scofflaw.

Andre Jute
If we want trendy opinions rather than facts, we'll read The Guardian

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/4/2015 6:40 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>
>
> All Juden has done is regurgitate in English an article by Andreas Oehler and Olaf Schultz, thereby lending his own name, and the prestige of the CTC, to a new article that suffers all the debilities of the first one which arise from the lack of independence and the unfairness of having the employee (Oehler) of one of the manufactures (SON) under competitive test involved in the tests. This is at best naive and unprofessional of Juden; it isn't the first time it has happened, so we're very near to describing the process as malignant.
>
> Juden's stamp of approval, presumably given on the assumption that he doesn't have the facilities, knowledge or gumption to set up such a test himself, changes absolutely nothing, except that it makes Juden another suspect, with Oehler and Schultz, in unprofessional and unfair behavior. The latter two are already permanently tainted: Oehler is and was alway unacceptable as a tester of any non-SON hub dynamos, and Schultz by his long association with and defense of Oehler has made himself unacceptable too. Juden should beware that his reputation isn't permanently damaged by his association with them.
>

Still no technical explanation of the (purported) problems with testing
methods? Nothing but more libel?

You're in the wrong discussion group.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[avag...@gmail.com]

engineers wasting 100X time gabbing abt improving lighting are suspect.

[avag...@gmail.com]

engineers wasting 100X time gabbing abt improving lighting are suspect.

::::::::::::::::::::::::>

AJ's rant is AAA !

841

[avag...@gmail.com]

AJ's rant is AAA !

841

......

AJ does write well if pressed.

Not the level of Bill BS but that's a separate genre