What's This I Hear about TSX, SLX!
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
of Bicycle Guide, "Cult Bikes" that TSX and SLX tubing from
Columbus does nothing more than their less expensive SL tubing. As I gather
from the article, TSX and SLX have flutes in their tubes that Columbus claims
strengthens the tubes with out much extra weight. Is this Bull-Shit!; somethin
g Columbus put out because they were afraid to lose sales to the light weight
and stronger Carbon Fiber? The trend of the "90s Steel Bike" seems to be going
to the OS thin wall tubing on the top and down tubes. Columbus does make an
EL tubing called Nivacrome (sp) which I heard was good stuff, very light in
weight and strong. So if Columbus did pull this one off it could go down as
one of the biggest rip-off in cycling.
Todd Nix
>Tom Slacum writes:
>>Is it really true or a rumor that I heard from an article in this months issue
>>of Bicycle Guide, "Cult Bikes" that TSX and SLX tubing from
>>Columbus does nothing more than their less expensive SL tubing. As I gather
>Steve's analysis of composite frame construction deleted...
Can someone give us a run-down of the latest Columbus tubing line, along
with pros/cons/relative weights/relative stiffness.
So far I know of:
Cromor / SL / SLX / TSX / MAX / EL / Genius / Colorado
(new?) (custom for Serotta?)
Please excuse mistakes, omissions, and ignorance.
I'm looking forward to a deluge of info to fill my cranium.
--
Todd Nix (512)794-2855 to...@halaus.hal.com
Movement1981-1982Power,Corruption,andLiesLowLifeBrotherhoodSubstanceTechnique
Terry Powell
>Subject: What's This I Hear about TSX, SLX!
>
>
->The following shoud be read in a friendly tone of voice. I am not
->flaming Tom
->or trying to start a flame war. The merits of different frame materials
->inter- >ests me so I would like to respond.
>
Excellent post on composite frames deleted... So what are your thoughts on
titanium?
--
Terry Powell Email - Terry.K...@tek.com Portland,Or
Steve Manifold
Tom Slacum writes:
>Is it really true or a rumor that I heard from an article in this months issue
>of Bicycle Guide, "Cult Bikes" that TSX and SLX tubing from
>Columbus does nothing more than their less expensive SL tubing. As I gather
>from the article, TSX and SLX have flutes in their tubes that Columbus claims
>strengthens the tubes with out much extra weight. Is this Bull-Shit!; somethin
>g Columbus put out because they were afraid to lose sales to the light weight
>and stronger Carbon Fiber? The trend of the "90s Steel Bike" seems to be going
>to the OS thin wall tubing on the top and down tubes. Columbus does make an
>EL tubing called Nivacrome (sp) which I heard was good stuff, very light in
>weight and strong. So if Columbus did pull this one off it could go down as
>one of the biggest rip-off in cycling.
The following shoud be read in a friendly tone of voice. I am not flaming Tom
or trying to start a flame war. The merits of different frame materials inter-
ests me so I would like to respond.
Whether or not the advantages of SLX over SL are worth the price differential
is arguable, but to call it one of the biggest rip-offs in cycling is going a
bit far, IMO. I also question whether composite frames are really stronger
than steel frames. There is no question about lightness - that is a measurable
quantity. But it is questionable whether composite technology has produced
frames that can handle the severe three-dimensional stresses imposed by cycling
as well as chrome-moly steel.
As far as weight is concerned, I guess you'd better have a light weight frame
if you're going to hang STI brake levers or aero bars or 450 gram aero rims on
it. Case in point - my steel frame bike weighs just under 18.5 lbs through
careful component selection - less than most composite frame bikes in all their
Dura-Ace STI glory. (Insert smiley face here) Needless to say, it would weigh
even less with a composite frame (about a lb less, actually). But I have
reasons for sticking with steel. Read on:
All the advertisements touting the strength of graphite compared to other mat-
erials fail to mention that the strength is highly anisotropic. For instance
the fiber direction strength of a 60% by volume unidirectionally oriented graph-
ite composite is on the order of 200 ksi to 400 ksi, depending on the type of
graphite. However, the transverse strength (strength perpendicular to the fiber
direction) is more like 5 - 10 ksi. That is why you never see unidirectional
fiber tubes in glued composite frames. They always employ a +/-45 degree wind
angle (or 0/90) in order to increase the transverse and shear properties (at
the expense of the unidirectional properties). Since composite properties like
stiffness and strength decrease very rapidly with increasing wrap angle, the
actual load carrying capacity of a composite tube has to be increased by in-
creasing wall thickness, negating some of the weight advantage of composites.
Then there is the inherent weakness of glued joints for composite frames em-
ploying graphite tubes glued to aluminum lugs. There are also questions of
galvanic corrosion between the graphite and the aluminum lugs, deterioration
of the composite due to UV radiation and moisture absorption as well as the
low fracture toughness of graphite composites in general (don't nick or
scratch that expensive composite frame!) These arguements also apply to mono-
coque style frames except that they do away with the lug-tube bond, and also
are able to tailor fiber direction to expected load directions. I just wonder
how well the guys at Kestrel (for example) know what goes on in a composite
bicycle frame during a strenuous hill climb or sprint when they're deciding
how much fiber is to be oriented at such and such an angle. There seems to be
a significant amount of anecdotal evidence that maybe they don't.
As an engineer intimately involved with design and manufacture of composite
structures, I would love to have a state of the art composite frame. But
having experienced first hand some of the weaknesses of composite materials,
I would never expect a composite frame to be as durable as my steel frame
bike.
Sorry to be so long winded.
Steve
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Steve Manifold University of Texas
eza...@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu College of Engineering
tas...@crovax.cem.utexas.edu Center for Electromechanics
Chris Moll
>Whether or not the advantages of SLX over SL are worth the price differential
>is arguable, but to call it one of the biggest rip-offs in cycling is going a
>bit far, IMO.
I agree. TSX/SLX are a rip-off, but Columbus has its work cut out for it
catching Shimano in the rip-off category (after Bio-pace, I'm not sure they'll
ever be caught - and they're continuing to widen the lead with things like
the new DuraAce SPD pedals).
--
Chris Moll (510)486-7891
---
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature
replaces it with. -- Tenessee Williams
David Keppel
>[It will be hard to beat Shimano in the rip-off category,
> after Bio-pace I'm not sure they'll ever be caught.]
I have here V1 #1 of _Bicycle Guide_, c. 1984. To give you some idea
of how old it is ... the cover photo has Connie Carpenter on her own
racing bike and it has toeclips and non-aero brake cable routing;
there is an inside short on "New wobblerings from Shimano"; the new
Cannondale bikes; an advert that mentions Greg LeMond is "already pro
cycling's World Champion after just three years of international
competition"; and ... a big Biopace advertising spread by... "Shimano
Sales Corporation." Let's see what they have to say:
"Shimano developed Biopace to help all kinds of cyclists overcome the
efficiency gaps of conventional round chainrings. The unique Biopace
shape was computer designed to bring power to all kinds of riders. We
think that is a pretty remarkable achievement, but you don't have to
take our word for it. Hear what actual Biopace riders have to say."
"My whole family rides them. I'm using Biopace for commuting to work
and occasional touring. I really like them. Biopace lightens up the
uphills and makes my riding easier. My wife rides Biopace while
commuting to work... the kids just got theirs and my son's first
comment was, "Where did the hills go?" Even my dad rides ten miles
almost daily and he enjoys the climbing ease of Biopace." [Dr.
Stuart Goldenberg, 40; Janie Goldenberg, 40; Marni Goldenberg, 12;
Adam Goldenberg, 9; Isaac Goldenberg, 72; San Luis Obispo, California]
"Most of our customers have purchased Biopace because of the
mechanical advantage. They know it's going to help them. The
reputation of Biopace is spreading fast, just by word of mouth. One
customer in particular (Dr. Goldenberg) has his whole family using
Biopace!" [Ira Hughes, Onwer Ira's Bike Shop, Arroyo Grande,
California]
"It's subtle enough so that it doesn't feel lumpy, yet is has enough
advantage to get me through the dead spots -- on long (180mm) arms
especially. I did a loaded tour up to Santa Barbara with very strong
headwinds and Bioplace really made pedaling easier. I'm very
satisfied. It can also help people with knee problems--they should at
least try it. A friend of mine, he's 70, rides Biopace in a hilly
section near his home and says it's the difference between riding up
or pushing up." [Bob Blackmer, 41 Burbank California]
"I used to jog, and from that my knees went out on me. Then I started
riding a bicycle. Around Pittsburgh there are quite a few hills, and
my knees were giving me trouble. So I bought the Biopace chainrings
and they solved my problem. I have arthritis in my knees, but I can
still ride with Biopace...they are much smoother." [George Chambers,
55, Pitssburgh, Pennsylvania.]
... and so on ...
"Biopace delivers power when you need it most -- on tough climbs or
under heavy loads. Its computer-aided design eliminates energy gaps
and provides a smooth rhythmic transmission of leg power.
"The result is a more natural spin that not only increases speed but
helps reduce knee strain and fatigue...even in higher gears.
"Our NEW shimano 600EX triple crank combines state-of-the-art alloy
chainwheel design with Biopace for the ultimate in efficiency and
performance.
"Plus new 44 and 50 tooth biplace chainrings are now available in
addition to 28, 38, and 48 for the most popular triple crank bolt
patterns.
"Learn mor about the exciting Biplace revolution. See local Shimano
dealer [sic] or write for a complete technical package including:
``Designing chainwheels to optimize the human engine'' Shinpei
Okajima, _Bike Tech_ (August 1983); "Out of Round Throughout the
Years" Fred DeLong, _Bicycling_ (March 1984); "Shimano's Biopace, Not
Just Another Eliptical chainring." Tom Walz, _Bicycling_ (March 1984).
Shimano Sales Corporation
9530 Cozycroft Avenue
Chatwhsowrth, CA 91311
;-D on ( The bicycle hysterian ) Parod
David Tan,Box 219 Baker Lab,54810,2720402
>Is it really true or a rumor that I heard from an article in this months issue
>of Bicycle Guide, "Cult Bikes" that TSX and SLX tubing from
>Columbus does nothing more than their less expensive SL tubing. As I gather
>from the article, TSX and SLX have flutes in their tubes that Columbus claims
>strengthens the tubes with out much extra weight. Is this Bull-Shit!; somethin
>g Columbus put out because they were afraid to lose sales to the light weight
>and stronger Carbon Fiber? The trend of the "90s Steel Bike" seems to be going
>to the OS thin wall tubing on the top and down tubes. Columbus does make an
>EL tubing called Nivacrome (sp) which I heard was good stuff, very light in
>weight and strong. So if Columbus did pull this one off it could go down as
>one of the biggest rip-off in cycling.
Hmmm...from what I've heard, SLX and TSX are somewhat stiffer than SL, but
whether the feel of either is preferable to SL is up to the rider, of
course. As for the bit about losing sales to carbon fiber...SLX was well
established when carbon fiber frames were still falling apart under stress.
TSX is apparently simply an extension of SLX.
Remember that SLX goes back a long way and SL goes back even longer. That
they are still around and still make for damn nice frames is a tribute to
their excellence. YOU might not like them, but others do, and all of you
would be right.
Arguably still the ultimate in steel is Reynolds 753, yet another trooper.
I recently saw a poster for 753 dated 1981.
If you're into ripoffs, the bigger the better, try Shimano. Some of their
stuff is good, some of it innovation for the sake of gimmickry, and some
of these latter innovations are really something (as I'm sure you know.)
Dave