History: horizontal dropout vs vertical?
Minh Phan
Hi:
Could someone give me a history or reason why
manufacturers changed from horizontal dropouts to
vertical dropouts in the rear? What are the advantages
or disadvantages of each type?
My older steel bike has a horizontal dropout with
adjustable screws at the far back. My newer Ti bike
has a vertical rear dropouts, and (I think) because the
chain stays are short the chain grinds. Things shift
perfect, the gear just grinds! And I cannot pull the
rear wheel back.
Thanks,
Minh
Pierre L
chainstays. If the dropouts were horizontal, on some bikes, there wouldn't
be enough room to move the wheel forward in order to remove it.
Another reason is that in the old days (I don't remember the exact years,
but sometime 70's I think), vertical dropouts were seen as an advantage
because you didn't have to centre the wheel when you put it in. You just
plopped it into the slots of the dropouts and that was it. Much quicker and
simpler. This of course demanded very good frame alignment, since there was
no possibility of manually centering the wheel in the frame. Maybe marketing
played a role, but, I clearly remember that vertical dropouts were
associated with better bikes.
I personally don't see any advantage in favour of horizontal dropouts, but,
it is possible to centre the wheel if the frame is not in good alignment,
and you can actually vary your chainstay length by how far into the slots
you tighten the wheel, thus slightly altering the handling of the bike. You
can't do that with verticals, but then, I've never really felt a burning
need to vary my chainstay length.
Pierre
"Minh Phan" <minh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3CF6DBF8...@sympatico.ca...
mark
indexed shifting came along. In order for index shifting to function
properly, the cogs (and therefore the whole wheel) have to be positioned in
just the right spot with respect to the derailler.
Grinding chain: Does it grind in all the gears or just one or two (and which
ones)? Can you vary the chainline by shifting the bottom bracket laterally
(Phil Wood BBs can do this a little bit)?
HTH,
--
mark
"Minh Phan" wrote >
Jay and Yukari Roberts
> Could someone give me a history or reason why
> manufacturers changed from horizontal dropouts to
> vertical dropouts in the rear? What are the advantages
> or disadvantages of each type?
Horizontal dropouts allow you to more easily set up a fixed/single
speed/internally geared/coaster brake rear hub without a chain tensioner.
Not impossible w/vertical dropouts, just more daunting. The vertical
dropouts on my commuter are the main reason I haven't yet switched this bike
to one of those nifty Rohloffs.
Minh Phan
Grinding chain: My chain grinds in all gear combinations.
While riding, I look down to the chain and I can see it
"dancing" (besides the grinding noise). By "dancing",
I mean for one link the chain moves ever so little to the right,
the next link it moves to the left (I try to paint a picture to
give you a feeling of what I wrote). This happens with a 9-sp triple
Daytona. On my older steel bike with 8-sp double Veloce,
it is quiet, the chain moves straight (no dancing).
Adjust the BB: Now I have to see which way I should
move it (toward the BB shell or away from it).
Thanks,
Minh
Mark Lee
"mark" <markf...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> My understanding is that vertical dropouts evolved when or shortly after
> indexed shifting came along.
I had vertical dropouts years before indexed shifting became racing gear...
they're for short chainstays, so you can fit inflated tyres into the rear
triangle and speed wheel alignment.
Mark Lee
David L. Johnson
>
> Hi:
> Could someone give me a history or reason why
> manufacturers changed from horizontal dropouts to
> vertical dropouts in the rear? What are the advantages
> or disadvantages of each type?
For short chainstays, you can't get the wheel out with horizontal dropouts.
Also, the QR will be able to grab more of the dropout since it doesn't just
have two straight sections of the dropout to clamp onto. Unless you had your
wheels all the way back in the horizontal dropouts you don't get that without
vertical dropouts.
I used to think that horizontal dropouts, with adjusting screws, just let
framebuilders be sloppier about aligning them, since you could still center
the wheel. Maybe there is something to that. But most modern frames are
well-aligned, so can use vertical dropouts.
And, hey, shorter stays are lighter.
>
> Things shift
> perfect, the gear just grinds! And I cannot pull the
> rear wheel back.
There is an adjustments screw at the back of the derailleur, near where it
attaches to the dropout. Turn that in a bit. That screw works similarly to
moving the wheel back and forth in the old dropouts.
--
David L. Johnson
__o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember
_`\(,_ | that your initial objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ
(_)/ (_) |
alex wetmore
@sympatico.ca:
Horizontal dropouts are more versitile. You can use them on bicycles
without a derailleur or chain tensioner.
Vertical dropouts don't require as much care in quick release tension, work
better with the very short chainstays that are currently in fashion, and
make it more likely that the end user will position the wheel in the
correct position for optimal shifting.
I generally prefer horizontal dropouts because they allow me to use
internally geared hubs or run fixed gear.
alex
HKEK
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_d.html
"With vertical dropouts, the axle cannot be pulled out of position,
even if it is not properly secured."
This really makes sense to me, especially for mountain bikes where the
wheel takes a real pounding! Road bikes benefit as well. With the
precision that can be attain in fabricating frames today, it is a
definite benefit to have the wheel "drop" into the frame precisely and
not require adjustment everytime it is installed or periodically after
riding a number of miles.
Minh Phan <minh...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3CF6DBF8...@sympatico.ca>...
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Well, one reason for vertical dropouts is because of really short
> chainstays. If the dropouts were horizontal, on some bikes, there
> wouldn't be enough room to move the wheel forward in order to remove
> it.
I think you have the cart before the horse. Chainstays were always as
short as possible but that meant two things. They were longer so the
rear wheel could be extracted and they had the little chainstay bridge
behind the BB. That little bridge was there to prevent the tire from
becoming jammed when the wheel was kicked forward out of the dropouts
that had been augered by the unsupported jam-nut. Those who have had
this happen may recall the comic back and forth of first knocking the
wheel forward, the rearward... Today the seat tube is in the way and
wheels drop out vertically so the dummy bridge between the chainstays
is also gone.
> Another reason is that in the old days (I don't remember the exact
> years, but sometime 70's I think), vertical dropouts were seen as an
> advantage because you didn't have to centre the wheel when you put
> it in. You just plopped it into the slots of the dropouts and that
> was it. Much quicker and simpler. This of course demanded very
> good frame alignment, since there was no possibility of manually
> centering the wheel in the frame. Maybe marketing played a role,
> but, I clearly remember that vertical dropouts were associated with
> better bikes.
The wheel drops into place without adjustment or special care but far
more important, the jam-nut is supported fore and aft, the direction
of bending of the rear axle. Rear axle failure on Campagnolo
freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical dropouts that
practically eliminated the problem for those who still ride these
antique hubs.
I had the first "Campagnolo" vertical dropouts made in 1960 after
seeing them on east German bicycles at the Olympics. I gave four
pairs to Cino Cinelli for fames I had ordered and he gave one set to
Tullio, an old friend. The next year we saw the Campagnolo version in
production.
> I personally don't see any advantage in favour of horizontal
> dropouts, but, it is possible to centre the wheel if the frame is
> not in good alignment, and you can actually vary your chainstay
> length by how far into the slots you tighten the wheel, thus
> slightly altering the handling of the bike. You can't do that with
> verticals, but then, I've never really felt a burning need to vary
> my chainstay length.
If you break your derailleur and convert to a fixed length chain to
continue, you'll see that not many combinations will work for lack of
1/2 inch of horizontal adjustment. Originally gears were shifted by
hand and the wheel moved fore and aft. In those days, dropouts were
deeper than what most of us have seen. The common one inch long ones
finally gave way to the 3/4 inch version for those who insisted on
horizontal ones, the rest of the world having switched to vertical.
Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
Jeff Wills
I think Rohloff sells a chain tensioner device for bikes with vertical
dropouts. Alternatively, any of the tensioners sold for single-speed
conversions do the same thing.
Jeff
alex wetmore
news:a13b2743.02053...@posting.google.com:
Yes, but they don't work with fixed gear bicycles and make it impossible to
use a stock chain case. I suppose a chaincase could be designed to work
with a chain tensioner, but that seems like a gross hack.
alex
Tim McNamara
hooko...@space.com (HKEK) wrote:
> From Sheldon Brown's site... [see drop out]
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_d.html
>
> "With vertical dropouts, the axle cannot be pulled out of position,
> even if it is not properly secured."
>
> This really makes sense to me, especially for mountain bikes where the
> wheel takes a real pounding! Road bikes benefit as well. With the
> precision that can be attain in fabricating frames today, it is a
> definite benefit to have the wheel "drop" into the frame precisely and
> not require adjustment everytime it is installed or periodically after
> riding a number of miles.
You make it sounds as if every frame built more than 5 years ago was
forged with hammer and anvil in some blackmsith shop in deepest Haute
Provence.
Modern frame builders use jigs which are functionally identical to the
jigs used for the last 100 years. Many bikes are still out of perfect
alignment when they make it to the bike shop floor. As long as nothing
rubs or is grossly out of whack, no one notices. I see many visibly
misaligned rear triangles on road race bikes during local hammerfests-
bikes made by Cannondale, Trek, Fondriest, Bianchi, etc.
R. Himm
> > wheel takes a real pounding! Road bikes benefit as well. With the
> > precision that can be attain in fabricating frames today, it is a
> > definite benefit to have the wheel "drop" into the frame precisely and
> > not require adjustment everytime it is installed or periodically after
> > riding a number of miles.
They sell vertical dropouts with adjusting screws too...
Jeff Wills
<snipped>
> >> Horizontal dropouts allow you to more easily set up a fixed/single
> >> speed/internally geared/coaster brake rear hub without a chain
> >> tensioner. Not impossible w/vertical dropouts, just more daunting.
> >> The vertical dropouts on my commuter are the main reason I haven't yet
> >> switched this bike to one of those nifty Rohloffs.
> >
> > I think Rohloff sells a chain tensioner device for bikes with vertical
> > dropouts. Alternatively, any of the tensioners sold for single-speed
> > conversions do the same thing.
>
> Yes, but they don't work with fixed gear bicycles and make it impossible to
> use a stock chain case. I suppose a chaincase could be designed to work
> with a chain tensioner, but that seems like a gross hack.
>
> alex
Umm, well... *I* thought the question was about mounting a Rohloff hub
on a bike with vertical drops. Nobody said nuthin' 'bout fixed gears
or chaincases. 8-)
Jeff
Ted Bennett
> <snip>
>
> The wheel drops into place without adjustment or special care but far
> more important, the jam-nut is supported fore and aft, the direction
> of bending of the rear axle. Rear axle failure on Campagnolo
> freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical dropouts that
> practically eliminated the problem for those who still ride these
> antique hubs.
> <snip>
Jobst, that first sentence contains an assertion that I have never before
heard, that axles bend in the fore-aft direction. I find that
surprising, as I had always assumed that an overload that results in a
bend would tend to be in a vertical direction.
Would you expand on that idea? (Or anyone.)
Ted Bennett
Sheldon Brown
>>The wheel drops into place without adjustment or special care but far
>>more important, the jam-nut is supported fore and aft, the direction
>>of bending of the rear axle. Rear axle failure on Campagnolo
>>freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical dropouts that
>>practically eliminated the problem for those who still ride these
>>antique hubs.
Hmmm...I'm not convinced there's a causal relationship here, the major
move to vertical dropouts coincided with the fading away of thread-on
freewheel hubs. Only one of my personal bikes, my Fat Chance MTB ever
had this combination. I was running it with a 7-speed freewheel on an
old Campag hub, never gave me any trouble...but I never bent an axle
with horizontal dropouts either.
Ted Bennett wrote:
> Jobst, that first sentence contains an assertion that I have never before
> heard, that axles bend in the fore-aft direction. I find that
> surprising, as I had always assumed that an overload that results in a
> bend would tend to be in a vertical direction.
Nope. I worried about this too when I was setting up my old Bianchi
Osprey as a fixed gear, with the axle cut off flush with the locknut.
The idea was that if only the skewer actually ran through the vertical
dropout, giving me a bit of room to adjust chain tension.
After thinking it through, I reached the same conclusion Jobst did, and
ran this setup for a couple of years, until I replaced the frame with
one made for singlespeed use (a Bianchi B.a.S.S.)
The vertical load consists of the rider's weight, minus the part that is
carried by the front wheel, plus whatever deceleration force results if
you lead-ass it over bumps.
The horizontal load from the chain drive, however can start with the
rider's whole weight and more if he or she is pulling up on the
handlebars. This is then _multiplied_ by the ratio of the crank
length/chainring radius.
With a 170 crank and a 42 chainring, this multiplier is 2.
With a 175 crank on a 22 tooth granny chainring, the multiplier is close
to 4!
Sheldon "Do The Math" Brown
+--------------------------------+
| Happy Reynolds Day! (5/31) |
+--------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772, 617-244-1040 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
Pierre L
> Jobst wrote:
>
>
> >>The wheel drops into place without adjustment or special care but far
> >>more important, the jam-nut is supported fore and aft, the direction
> >>of bending of the rear axle. Rear axle failure on Campagnolo
> >>freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical dropouts that
> >>practically eliminated the problem for those who still ride these
> >>antique hubs.
>
>
news:3CF82097...@sheldonbrown.com...
> Hmmm...I'm not convinced there's a causal relationship here, the major
> move to vertical dropouts coincided with the fading away of thread-on
> freewheel hubs. Only one of my personal bikes, my Fat Chance MTB ever
> had this combination. I was running it with a 7-speed freewheel on an
> old Campag hub, never gave me any trouble...but I never bent an axle
> with horizontal dropouts either.
>
I could be wrong, but the way I remember it is simply that at some point,
somebody realised that with derailleurs, you simply didn't need the
horizontal drop out in order to pull the wheel back so that the chain was
tight enough - as was necessary on any other type of single speed or hub
gear system. That it coincided with anything may have been purely
coincidental. It was simply faster to change a wheel with vertical dropouts.
Pierre
Jon Isaacs
mentioned:
1. If a wheel is damaged, ie rim bent or spokes broken, and the tire is rubbing
on the frame, it is sometimes possible to cock the wheel in the frame and ride
home.
2. The axle is captured so the wheel cannot fall out with a QR failure.
Small advantages.....
jon isaacs
Todd Kuzma
joni...@aol.com wrote on 6/1/02 9:05 AM:
> A couple of small advantages of horizontal dropouts which have yet to be
> mentioned:
>
> 1. If a wheel is damaged, ie rim bent or spokes broken, and the tire is
> rubbing
> on the frame, it is sometimes possible to cock the wheel in the frame and ride
> home.
I can't really imagine how this would be done. We've had plenty of bent
wheels in the shop where the tire rubbed the frame and changing the
alignment of the wheel would simply cause it to rub in another spot.
> 2. The axle is captured so the wheel cannot fall out with a QR failure.
Until you began to pedal. Then the right side of the wheel would pull
forward until the tire hit the left chainstay. Actually, the opposite is
true. You can ride a wheel with a broken QR with vertical dropouts and the
axle will stay in place. The wheel will not fall out unless the rear of the
bike is lifted.
Todd Kuzma
Heron Bicycles
Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery
LaSalle, IL 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com
http://www.tullios.com
paul hays
(in message <8926bee2.0205...@posting.google.com>):
> From Sheldon Brown's site... [see drop out]
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_d.html
>
> "With vertical dropouts, the axle cannot be pulled out of position,
> even if it is not properly secured."
>
> This really makes sense to me, especially for mountain bikes where the
> wheel takes a real pounding! Road bikes benefit as well. With the
> precision that can be attain in fabricating frames today, it is a
> definite benefit to have the wheel "drop" into the frame precisely and
> not require adjustment everytime it is installed or periodically after
> riding a number of miles.
>
I was wondering: did vertical dropouts come into common use on mountain and
road bikes simultaneously? I wasn't really paying attention to that kind of
stuff at the time!
Mountain bike tires pose more of a problem with frame clearance: very old
bikes sometimes require tire deflation to remove the wheel when horizontal
drops are used... did this influence the adoption?
My impression has been that, until recently, road biking has been more
resistant to technological change (or marketing gimmics, depending on your
outlook) than mountain biking. Obviously, the mountain bike is a newer form
of bike, having had less time to achieve the 'perfection of form' of a road
bike. Witness the profusion of cnc-fabrication parts companies in the late
80's early nineties, each with their own fabulous purple anodized take on the
cantilever brake...
Was there a resistance to the vertical dropout among road frame builders? Was
there a cross over from mountain frame builders that dabbled in road frames?
So many questions!
Paul
Pierre L
"paul hays" <pol...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:01HW.B91E61450...@news.mindspring.com...
No way. There were vertical dropouts on road bikes before mountain bikes
were ever even thought of.
Pierre
paul hays
(in message <CC9K8.159937$ah_.1...@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>):
Sure, and there were also cantilever brakes and triple cranks on road bikes
prior to the appearance of mountain bikes, but that wasn't the question. I
was asking about common usage/industry adoption.
p
--
Please respond to newsgroup postings via group, not email..
Sheldon Brown
> No way. There were vertical dropouts on road bikes before mountain bikes
> were ever even thought of.
> Pierre
C'est vrai!
I believe that vertical dropouts started coming on high-end French
touring bikes and tandems in the 1950s. In that era, folks were using
wing nuts (écrous papillons). With the move toward smaller granny
chainrings, chain pull increased, and the wing nuts couldn't reliably
hold the axle.
Many younger cyclists think of triple chainrings, wide range gears,
cantilever brakes and vertical dropouts as being "mountain bike"
equipment, but actually these originated as touring technology.
Mountain bikes evolved as a cross between touring bikes, BMX bikes and
ballooners, taking approximately equal amounts of technology from each.
Sheldon "Histoire de VTT" Brown
+------------------------------------+
| France, France...if not for you, |
| the world would be alone! |
| --Victor Hugo |
+------------------------------------+
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> The wheel drops into place without adjustment or special care but
>> far more important, the jam-nut is supported fore and aft, the
>> direction of bending of the rear axle. Rear axle failure on
>> Campagnolo freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical
>> dropouts that practically eliminated the problem for those who
>> still ride these antique hubs.
> Jobst, that first sentence contains an assertion that I have never
> before heard, that axles bend in the fore-aft direction. I find
> that surprising, as I had always assumed that an overload that
> results in a bend would tend to be in a vertical direction.
> Would you expand on that idea? (Or anyone.)
Well, take your weight plus what you can pull with your other leg when
you stand on the pedal and you get more than twice your weight and
applied at he worst place on the axle. To verify this, just look at
the inside of a right horizontal dropout and you'll see where the jam
nut augered into the steel from bending fore and aft. This leaves the
axle supported on a hinge, so to speak. The left side does not show
such damage.
Normal wheel loads are not concentrated on the right ball bearing in a
bending mode similar to pedaling loads that produce an enormous
bending force applied at the ball bearing by an axle that is greatly
overhung by the use of an originally 4-speed freewheel expanded to 6,
or 7-speeds.
The Shimano design addressed this problem the best of any on the
market.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> The wheel drops into place without adjustment or special care but
>>> far more important, the jam-nut is supported fore and aft, the
>>> direction of bending of the rear axle. Rear axle failure on
>>> Campagnolo freewheel hubs was a common occurrence before vertical
>>> dropouts that practically eliminated the problem for those who
>>> still ride these antique hubs.
>> Hmmm...I'm not convinced there's a causal relationship here, the
>> major move to vertical dropouts coincided with the fading away of
>> thread-on freewheel hubs. Only one of my personal bikes, my Fat
>> Chance MTB ever had this combination. I was running it with a
>> 7-speed freewheel on an old Campag hub, never gave me any
>> trouble...but I never bent an axle with horizontal dropouts either.
> I could be wrong, but the way I remember it is simply that at some
> point, somebody realised that with derailleurs, you simply didn't
> need the horizontal drop out in order to pull the wheel back so that
> the chain was tight enough - as was necessary on any other type of
> single speed or hub gear system. That it coincided with anything may
> have been purely coincidental. It was simply faster to change a
> wheel with vertical dropouts.
As I said, the East Germans (Diamant bicycles from Chemnitz) were not
bound by holy tradition from France and Italy and made the practical
move. When I made examples adaptable to Campagnolo derailleurs, its
tome had come. There are still riders who insist thy want to ride
fixed gears in winter and for them horizontal dropouts will hover
around and of course on track bicycles.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I was wondering: did vertical dropouts come into common use on
> mountain and road bikes simultaneously? I wasn't really paying
> attention to that kind of stuff at the time!
Vertical dropouts pre-date MTB's by at least 20 years. There wasn't
any mountain bike at the transition (1962-3).
Pierre L
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:XyCK8.6878$3w2....@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Pierre L Pierrot writes:
>
>
> > I could be wrong, but the way I remember it is simply that at some
> > point, somebody realised that with derailleurs, you simply didn't
> > need the horizontal drop out in order to pull the wheel back so that
> > the chain was tight enough - as was necessary on any other type of
> > single speed or hub gear system. That it coincided with anything may
> > have been purely coincidental. It was simply faster to change a
> > wheel with vertical dropouts.
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:XyCK8.6878$3w2....@typhoon.sonic.net...
> As I said, the East Germans (Diamant bicycles from Chemnitz) were not
> bound by holy tradition from France and Italy and made the practical
> move. When I made examples adaptable to Campagnolo derailleurs, its
> tome had come. There are still riders who insist thy want to ride
> fixed gears in winter and for them horizontal dropouts will hover
> around and of course on track bicycles.
>
> Jobst Brandt <jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> Palo Alto CA
Interesting information Jobst. Thanks for filling in the gaps in my
recollections about this.
Pierre
A Muzi
"paul hays" <pol...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:01HW.B91E61450...@news.mindspring.com...
> I was wondering: did vertical dropouts come into common use on mountain
and
> road bikes simultaneously? I wasn't really paying attention to that kind
of
> stuff at the time!
>
> Mountain bike tires pose more of a problem with frame clearance: very old
> bikes sometimes require tire deflation to remove the wheel when horizontal
> drops are used... did this influence the adoption?
>
> My impression has been that, until recently, road biking has been more
> resistant to technological change (or marketing gimmics, depending on your
> outlook) than mountain biking. Obviously, the mountain bike is a newer
form
> of bike, having had less time to achieve the 'perfection of form' of a
road
> bike. Witness the profusion of cnc-fabrication parts companies in the
late
> 80's early nineties, each with their own fabulous purple anodized take on
the
> cantilever brake...
> Was there a resistance to the vertical dropout among road frame builders?
Was
> there a cross over from mountain frame builders that dabbled in road
frames?
Bob Jackson, Jack Taylor and other small builders were offering them on
touring machines in the sixties.
We sold Garlatti/Welker with them in 1971. Nice touch on otherwise
unremarkable machines. Noting they didn't have to cost more, we asked for
them on our house brand frames built by Yamaguchi (Osaka) in 1974. All this
was long before cruisers bacame "mountain bikes" (note Jobst's 1960
reference - I was in grammar school!)
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971
Jay Beattie
"A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:3cfb8d7e$0$3568$272e...@news.execpc.com...
As I recall, the early Campy vertical dropouts looked like they were stamped
(although they were probably forged) and apparently weren't all that
popular. It wasn't until the mid or late '70s (I think) that the nice fat
forged ones came along, and we all gave up our horizontal dropouts with the
cool adjusting screws that always bent. Ah, the good old days. -- Jay
Beattie.
Matt O'Toole
<jobst....@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
news:1CCK8.6879$3w2....@typhoon.sonic.net...
> Paul Hays writes:
>
> > I was wondering: did vertical dropouts come into common use on
> > mountain and road bikes simultaneously? I wasn't really paying
> > attention to that kind of stuff at the time!
>
> Vertical dropouts pre-date MTB's by at least 20 years. There wasn't
> any mountain bike at the transition (1962-3).
I'm sure that's true, but when mountain bikes started to become popular in
the 80s, most road frames still had horizontal dropouts. Since then,
vertical ones have taken over, and I'm sure mountain bikes hastened the
trend.
Matt O.
Brad Anders
>
> > I was wondering: did vertical dropouts come into common use on
> > mountain and road bikes simultaneously? I wasn't really paying
> > attention to that kind of stuff at the time!
>
> Vertical dropouts pre-date MTB's by at least 20 years. There wasn't
> any mountain bike at the transition (1962-3).
I had vertical dropouts on my first decent road bike that I bought in
1972 or 1973 (Arthur Metcalfe frame). Like Jobst says, they've been
around a long time.
Brad Anders
Bluto
> Well, take your weight plus what you can pull with your other leg when
> you stand on the pedal and you get more than twice your weight and
> applied at he worst place on the axle. To verify this, just look at
> the inside of a right horizontal dropout and you'll see where the jam
> nut augered into the steel from bending fore and aft. This leaves the
> axle supported on a hinge, so to speak. The left side does not show
> such damage.
This is why BMX racers use oversized locknuts or "frame saver"
oversized axle washers. These and the related chain-tensioning
studded axle washers are tacit testimony that a single speed
drivetrain is not without its complications.
Gearhub and coaster brake bikes are a couple of popular applications
you failed to mention for which the vertical dropout is inappropriate.
Pista bikes and other fixies are anomalous by comparison.
Chalo Colina
A Muzi
> news:3cfb8d7e$0$3568$272e...@news.execpc.com...
> > Bob Jackson, Jack Taylor and other small builders were offering them on
> > touring machines in the sixties.
> >
> > We sold Garlatti/Welker with them in 1971. Nice touch on otherwise
> > unremarkable machines. Noting they didn't have to cost more, we asked
for
> > them on our house brand frames built by Yamaguchi (Osaka) in 1974. All
> this
> > was long before cruisers bacame "mountain bikes" (note Jobst's 1960
> > reference - I was in grammar school!)
"Jay Beattie" <jbea...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
news:ufnal41...@corp.supernews.com...
> As I recall, the early Campy vertical dropouts looked like they were
stamped
> (although they were probably forged) and apparently weren't all that
> popular. It wasn't until the mid or late '70s (I think) that the nice fat
> forged ones came along, and we all gave up our horizontal dropouts with
the
> cool adjusting screws that always bent. Ah, the good old days.
I still have some Campagnolo ones. They are forged but 5mm. Some builders
(and me too) brazed a washer on the inside to bring them out to 7mm.
You're right about the '70s Suntour ones - very nice and dirt cheap with
double eyelets forged in.