Trek y22-y33, Hydraulic Brakes
expl...@fn1.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
I've just read about a Magura hydraulic brake system for MTB's, how much
of a difference are they compared with regular brakes?
James Carroll
are talking about 95 or 96 models. For 95, the Y22 has LX
components with Grip Shift X-Ray and a Judy XC. The Y33 has
full XTR, Judy SL, White Ind. hubs, and Ride-On cables.
As far as the Manguras, while they are more expensive than
regular brakes and weigh a little more, they provide much
greater stopping power. When properly set up I have found rare
instances when I require more than one finger to stop the bike,
which was anything but true with regular canti's.
--
James Carroll | Live to ride,
jjc...@electro.bpainc.com | Ride to live.
Splattski
<What is the difference between a trek Y22 and TREK Y33 MTB?>
These two bikes share identical frames.
For '96, the Y33 is XT (RapidFire SL) equipped with a long travel (75mm)
Judy SL fork and Statos air/oil rear shock with remote damping adjuster
(on the handlebars). 747 pedals.
The '96 Y22 is mostly LX (RapidFire SL) with an XT rear derailleur. Long
travel Judy XC fork, and Fox Alps 4 rear shock. 535 pedals.
Both bikes offer 4" of rear wheel travel.
John from Trek (company spokesperson)
James Carroll
you have to add everything. The Manuras are about 800g. Avid
Canti's are 100g a pair = 200g. Levers run around 150g-200g
(unless you go super light) = up to 400g. Then add in all the
cabling guide, wire, straddle cables, (everyone seems to forget
this stuff) which adds up to a total weight of 450g-600g. This
makes the Manguras about .5 to 1 pound heavier. This weight on
the Manguras does not include the brace, which makes a big
difference, so I'd put the weight difference at a hair under 1
pound. Kooka is supposed to be comming out with lighter levers
for the Manguras which drop around 150g, but a pair is supposed
to run over $200! Think about it, the Kooka levers cost as
much as the entire Mangura setup.
Now check out the price. Two pair of Avids is $200. Two
Avid levers is another $150. Add to this a pair of braces,
which would be required to make the Avids aproach the stopping
ability of the Manguras, which adds another $50-$60. A pair of
Manguras is $250, plus $50 for the braces (they really make it
seem like the Manguras come with that cool yellow brace, but
they don't). And by the way, I tried the precision billet
perches for RF w/window, while the right one works, the left
one puts the levers too close to the handlebar to allow
shifting, so this pretty much means you have to get Grip Shift
or the older Shimano RF, or the new stuff they are supposed to
come out with (which I am really curious about).
Finally lets look at the advantages and disadvantages of the
Manguras.
Advantages:
#1: Canti's don't approach the stopping power of the
Manguras. I've heard the WCW brakes are pretty close, but I
haven't tried them...besides they're heavy and ugly.
#2: Once setup, there is no problem with adjustments, they
just work and don't require any adjustment aside from turning
the pad wear screw.
#3: Better brake feel. The manguras really lack the mush
inherent in other brake systems. The manguras don't seem to
require any toe-in adjustment so they hit the rim squarely and
firmly. Even with this level of feel, they still have great
modulation.
Disadvantages:
#1: No rapid fire (this is the big one for me)
#2: The brake lines don't fit in the cable guides on your
bike so installation usually involves zip-ties. Mangura does
make adaptors, but they suck.
#3: Around 1 pound of weight.
#4: If you do have to work on them they can be a pain.
Expecially if you're out of the brass fittings and nobody in
town has any.
#5: Nobody stocks parts for them (see #4 above)
#6: They are probably destroying my rims like no other brakes
can.
It pretty much boils down to this: If you don't need killer
braking power, are worried about weight, and don't want to
hastle with the initial installation, don't get Manguras.
If you like great brakes, don't want to end up realligning
the brakes every month, and don't mind the extra weight get the
manguras.
There is one potential issue on the horizon, will the
Manguras fit on the Mach 5 forks? Since the Mach 5's are
narrower, will the Mangura's 'brace horns' fit?
Tom Gentry
: What is the difference between a trek Y22 and TREK Y33 MTB?
Components, don't know which ones specifically
: I've just read about a Magura hydraulic brake system for MTB's, how much
: of a difference are they compared with regular brakes?
Not much difference in weight or price (compared to high end cantis),
huge difference in power. The maguras can't be beat for the power
output. They're strong enough to twist your stays and forks, the brake
booster is always a good investment in this case. The smoothness of the
application is vastly better than cantis. Now more cable slop when you
stop. Some riders like that, personally I prefer the exactness of the
Maguras. As far as maintenance goes, there practically is none. Change
the fluid occasionally (rider preference) and change the pads. Thats it.
No re-toeing due to stretched cables or warn pads, just go out and ride.
For 96 Magura will be coming out with 4 models. The basic HS-22s in a
choice of blue or black, the John Tomac signature model for X-country in
red, and the downhill model featuring a stronger master cylinder in
yellow. The basic hs-22s have gone on a diet and come stock with the
aluminum bolt kit, previously the only difference betweeen the 22s and
the Race-Lites.
For the future of Magura....Disc Brakes.
Check out the protos in 96.
Consider buying them in 97.
Any questions, either e-mail me, Tom Gentry, at oper...@buffnet.net or
contact Dave Wootten at 1-800-875-BIKE. He's at the Philly show for the
weekend, but he'll be back in town Tuesday if you wanna call.
Trails,
Operadude of WNYMBA
Christopher R. Bailey
<James=Carroll%NA%Contr...@Bangate.compaq.com> wrote:
> As far as the Manguras, while they are more expensive than
> regular brakes and weigh a little more, they provide much
> greater stopping power. When properly set up I have found rare
> instances when I require more than one finger to stop the bike,
> which was anything but true with regular canti's.
Maguras are a good choice for the rear brake on full suspension bikes in
general. Due to cable routing, or cable compression/bending when the
shock compresses, you can get funny effects in your rear brake. While the
Y bike definitly has the best rear cable mounting and routing, it's not
always perfect. Occasionally, if you don't set the last segment of cable
housing up to a perfect length, you may get a bit of suck or push in the
brake lever when (de)compressing. I had that happen on my Y-33 on
occasion, but when I put a new piece of housing in the last segment, and a
new cable in, I guess I got it just right, as it hasn't happened since.
I looked at putting a Magura on the rear, but two problems. Cost is one.
The brake itself is priced comparably to Avids (which I have), but if you
use Shimano shifters, you'll also need perches for those, so you can use
Magura's brake levers. That'll add a good $50 to the price. Of course
this isn't a problem if you have GripShift, but then I'd rather spend the
$50 than use Grip Shift.
Aside from that, the weight difference is considerable, not "a little
more" when compared to high end cantilevers. A single Magura setup (which
does include the lever) weighs 800+ grams. That's nearly two pounds.
Compare that with an Avid cantilever which weighs less than 100 grams (80g
is one weight I've seen), and add in a Shimano lever if you use that, or
some third party lever, and you'r still going to be at half the weight of
a Magura. Do this front and rear, and it's like adding 1.5 pounds to your
bike! That's significant.
I don't doubt the Maguras stop better, and the quick release is really
nice as well. So, if you don't care about the weight, then go for it. I
personally don't have too much trouble stopping my bike with a well setup
set of Avids, and yes I do use 2 fingers, but that doesn't bother me.
_____________ Christopher R. Bailey _____________
bai...@beetle.com
http://www.quake.net/~baileyc
Macintosh, for those who can see through Windows.
Ride fast, take chances!
Rob Coenders <rcoende@hvsag01.att.com>
James Carroll <James=Carroll%NA%Contr...@Bangate.compaq.com> wrote:
> #4: If you do have to work on them they can be a pain.
>Expecially if you're out of the brass fittings and nobody in
>town has any.
> #5: Nobody stocks parts for them (see #4 above)
> #6: They are probably destroying my rims like no other brakes
>can.
>
IMHO,
Working on the maguras is ver simple but you need the Brass
fittings. When I bought my pair of Maguras I get a tuningkit and
10 Brass fittings from my LBS.
I think that if your LBS sells Maguras and didn't have spare
parts It's time to find a LBS that do have the spare parts.
You won't buy a bike from a LBS if he can't support the bike
do you ?
So why buying a set of Maguras when the LBS can't support these.
I think it's asking for truobble.
The problem with destroying rims ?
The brake pads are very soft and I think that braking in your
rims isn't certainly more as with the normal brakepads from
shimano and other brands.
I'm using the Maguras for over a year now and i've never
encountered a problem. I like the feel of the maguras.
--
__o rco...@hvsag01.ns-nl.att.com
Rob >>>>>> _'\< _ >>>> rco...@xs4all.nl
(_) '(_) www.xs4all.nl/~rcoende/index.html
------------ PGP. public key availlable
Robert Horvatich
> In article <DFM9w...@twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com>, James Carroll
> <James=Carroll%NA%Contr...@Bangate.compaq.com> wrote:
>
> > As far as the Manguras, while they are more expensive than
> > regular brakes and weigh a little more, they provide much
> > greater stopping power. When properly set up I have found rare
> > instances when I require more than one finger to stop the bike,
> > which was anything but true with regular canti's.
Actually, it is true with regualr canti's. I have a Cannondale Super V
with those force 40 things that everybody complains about adjusting.
I too rarely use more than one finger on my brake levers. I'm still
using the el cheapo alivio canti's as well. I'm not talking about level
ground riding either.
>
> Maguras are a good choice for the rear brake on full suspension bikes in
> general. Due to cable routing, or cable compression/bending when the
> shock compresses, you can get funny effects in your rear brake. While the
> Y bike definitly has the best rear cable mounting and routing, it's not
> always perfect. Occasionally, if you don't set the last segment of cable
> housing up to a perfect length, you may get a bit of suck or push in the
> brake lever when (de)compressing. I had that happen on my Y-33 on
On the Super V frame, the cable goes through a gradual arc eliminating
any localized cable housing bending/pulling/pushing. I haven't
experienced any of the problems you mentioned. Good cable routing set up
me thinks. I also like the internal cable routing on the CF swingarm.
It really does help keep gunk out of the cable housing internals keeping
shifting smoother for much longer.
> Aside from that, the weight difference is considerable, not "a little
> more" when compared to high end cantilevers. A single Magura setup (which
> does include the lever) weighs 800+ grams. That's nearly two pounds.
> Compare that with an Avid cantilever which weighs less than 100 grams (80g
> is one weight I've seen), and add in a Shimano lever if you use that, or
> some third party lever, and you'r still going to be at half the weight of
> a Magura. Do this front and rear, and it's like adding 1.5 pounds to your
> bike! That's significant.
That's interesting. People shave weight off their bikes by using scary
light stuff that in some cases may be detrimental to their safety.
Ti parts like BB and pedal spindles are a few things that come to mind.
I guess it really matter as to the application you have for your bike.
Downhill, the weight really doesn't matter.
Rob
email: |"You can't take life too seriously,
rho...@tbd.ford.com | you don't get out alive." Bugs Bunny
Derek Anderson
: hastle with the initial installation, don't get Manguras.
: If you like great brakes, don't want to end up realligning
: the brakes every month, and don't mind the extra weight get the
: manguras.
: narrower, will the Mangura's 'brace horns' fit?
: --
: James Carroll | Live to ride,
: jjc...@electro.bpainc.com | Ride to live.
The new Mach 5 forks will still fit, since the horn can be rotated so
much. Also, with a brace installed, you dont really need the horns to be
pressing against the fork at all. My trials bike has maguras, and their
horns don't touch the fork at all, without any loss in braking power that
I can notice (btw Brodie brake boosters for the U style brake fit on
Maguras, and only cost about $15, in cool anodized shades). Also, stay
away from the yellow Maguras, they are EXACTLY the same as the brown
ones, but have titanium bolts. Total weight savings : 15 grams out of
over 800 total. Save your money for some judy yellow spray paint.
- Derek
Tom Gentry
: When you compare the weight of the Manguras to normal brakes
: Canti's are 100g a pair = 200g. Levers run around 150g-200g
: (unless you go super light) = up to 400g. Then add in all the
: cabling guide, wire, straddle cables, (everyone seems to forget
: this stuff) which adds up to a total weight of 450g-600g. This
: makes the Manguras about .5 to 1 pound heavier. This weight on
: the Manguras does not include the brace, which makes a big
: difference, so I'd put the weight difference at a hair under 1
: pound. Kooka is supposed to be comming out with lighter levers
: for the Manguras which drop around 150g, but a pair is supposed
: to run over $200! Think about it, the Kooka levers cost as
: much as the entire Mangura setup.
that extra weight. My MAGURAs
: Now check out the price. Two pair of Avids is $200. Two
: Avid levers is another $150. Add to this a pair of braces,
: which would be required to make the Avids aproach the stopping
: ability of the Manguras, which adds another $50-$60. A pair of
: Manguras is $250, plus $50 for the braces (they really make it
: seem like the Manguras come with that cool yellow brace, but
: they don't). And by the way, I tried the precision billet
: perches for RF w/window, while the right one works, the left
: one puts the levers too close to the handlebar to allow
: shifting, so this pretty much means you have to get Grip Shift
: or the older Shimano RF, or the new stuff they are supposed to
: come out with (which I am really curious about).
Magura offers adaptors for RF through 94. Indicators aren't necessary,
but Magura is working on an adaptor to fit this. Also of note, on the
other hand Shimano is making a separable shifter pod again for the
outbreak of aftermarket brakes.
: Finally lets look at the advantages and disadvantages of the
: Manguras.
: Advantages:
: #1: Canti's don't approach the stopping power of the
: Manguras. I've heard the WCW brakes are pretty close, but I
: haven't tried them...besides they're heavy and ugly.
: #2: Once setup, there is no problem with adjustments, they
: just work and don't require any adjustment aside from turning
: the pad wear screw.
: #3: Better brake feel. The manguras really lack the mush
: inherent in other brake systems. The manguras don't seem to
: require any toe-in adjustment so they hit the rim squarely and
: firmly. Even with this level of feel, they still have great
: modulation.
: Disadvantages:
: #1: No rapid fire (this is the big one for me)
: #2: The brake lines don't fit in the cable guides on your
: bike so installation usually involves zip-ties. Mangura does
: make adaptors, but they suck.
Or you can drill out the cable guides.
: #3: Around 1 pound of weight.
I still think its that extra 'n'
: #4: If you do have to work on them they can be a pain.
: Expecially if you're out of the brass fittings and nobody in
: town has any.
: #5: Nobody stocks parts for them (see #4 above)
Contact Dave Wootten at Riggio Imports at 1-800-875-BIKE. He always has
stock, he's a Magura distributor.
: #6: They are probably destroying my rims like no other brakes can.
: It pretty much boils down to this: If you don't need killer
: braking power, are worried about weight, and don't want to
: hastle with the initial installation, don't get Manguras.
: If you like great brakes, don't want to end up realligning
: the brakes every month, and don't mind the extra weight get the
: manguras.
: There is one potential issue on the horizon, will the
: Manguras fit on the Mach 5 forks? Since the Mach 5's are
: narrower, will the Mangura's 'brace horns' fit?
Yes, this is possible.
Ralf Hildebrandt
> Finally lets look at the advantages and disadvantages of the
>Manguras.
>Advantages:
> #1: Canti's don't approach the stopping power of the
>Manguras. I've heard the WCW brakes are pretty close, but I
>haven't tried them...besides they're heavy and ugly.
Heavy ? The Maguras are as "heavy" as those !
> #2: Once setup, there is no problem with adjustments, they
>just work and don't require any adjustment aside from turning
>the pad wear screw.
Yup.
> #3: Better brake feel. The manguras really lack the mush
>inherent in other brake systems. The manguras don't seem to
>require any toe-in adjustment so they hit the rim squarely and
>firmly. Even with this level of feel, they still have great
>modulation.
But only if the frame/fork is stiff enough !
>Disadvantages:
> #1: No rapid fire (this is the big one for me)
Liar ! Use the Ringle or Magura rapid fire adaptors.
> #2: The brake lines don't fit in the cable guides on your
>bike so installation usually involves zip-ties. Mangura does
>make adaptors, but they suck.
No wonder ! Those are CABLE guides ...
I use velcro straps.
> #3: Around 1 pound of weight.
Yes.
> #4: If you do have to work on them they can be a pain.
>Expecially if you're out of the brass fittings and nobody in
>town has any.
Those come 20 $ for 30 fittings.
> #5: Nobody stocks parts for them (see #4 above)
German power by Gustav Magenwirth
Therefor the name : MAgenwirth GUstav RAdfabrik...
> #6: They are probably destroying my rims like no other brakes
>can.
Ahh. Buy better rims.
>It pretty much boils down to this: If you don't need killer
>braking power, are worried about weight, and don't want to
>hastle with the initial installation, don't get Manguras.
It's Maguras, not Mangura (though they mangle your rims.)
> If you like great brakes, don't want to end up realligning
>the brakes every month, and don't mind the extra weight get the
>manguras.
> There is one potential issue on the horizon, will the
>Manguras fit on the Mach 5 forks? Since the Mach 5's are
>narrower, will the Mangura's 'brace horns' fit?
Turn the horns so that they are pointing down.
--
Ralf Hildebrandt, R.Hild...@tu-bs.de (PGP Key @ request )
http://stahlw00.stahl.bau.tu-bs.de/people/rhildebrandt.html
Institute for Steelconstruction TU Braunschweig
Beethovenstr. 51, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany
Ralf Hildebrandt
>much. Also, with a brace installed, you dont really need the horns to be
>pressing against the fork at all. My trials bike has maguras, and their
Yes. Otherwise the brake will transfer too much power into the brace
respectively the bolts !!!
>horns don't touch the fork at all, without any loss in braking power that
>I can notice (btw Brodie brake boosters for the U style brake fit on
>Maguras, and only cost about $15, in cool anodized shades). Also, stay
>away from the yellow Maguras, they are EXACTLY the same as the brown
>ones, but have titanium bolts.
No, those are waxed aluminum bolts.
>Total weight savings : 15 grams out of
>over 800 total. Save your money for some judy yellow spray paint.
The weight saving is bigger, but still not relevant.
James Carroll
>> #1: No rapid fire (this is the big one for me)
>
>Liar ! Use the Ringle or Magura rapid fire adaptors.
Check it out, the Ringle and Magura adaptors only work with the
old non-OGD RF shifters which are almost impossible to find
now. Precision billet makes an adaptor for the OGD RF shifters
but it doesn't work well.