How many miles/kilometres do you get out of a chain?

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:07:07 AM UTC+1, James wrote on another thread:

> I use a Campag Veloce chain ....
>
> I've been running 2 chains on the one cassette (not at the same time),
> and swap chains every 2 months or so. .... So far the 3 components have lasted about 10,000km. ...
>.... I think they're nearly ready to be retired.

You paid for two Campy chains and got 10k km out of the pair? That's only about 11% better than I do. I got 4506km out of my last X8 KMC chain.

There are guys on the Thorn netsite, where I hang out because of the good Rohloff info, who commute in all kinds of British weather and get 10K plus out of a chain, every time. I'm just about the hardest guy on chains there, especially considering my chain runs inside a completely enclosing case (Hebie Chainglider). If I use an open chain, a good one lasts 2200km and a cheap SRAM is lucky to see a thousand miles/1600km.

Andre Jute

[Duane]

What speed chain? I have a 10 speed and pretty much any chain that I
try, I can get around 4-5k on it if I clean it regularly and keep it
lightly lubed. My 8 speed on my Bianchi Volpe, I think it's probably 3
times that. The other difference that I see is that on the 10 speed, I
change the cassette every 3rd chain or so. The Bianchi is on its second
cassette and I bought that bike in 1994.

[Ernie]

"Andre Jute" <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dbdfe6b9-cb7e-48ba...@googlegroups.com...

MTB or road?

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Andre Jute:

>There are guys on the Thorn netsite, where I hang out because of the good Rohloff info, who commute in all kinds of British weather and get 10K plus out of a chain, every time. I'm just about the hardest guy on chains there, especially considering my chain runs inside a completely enclosing case (Hebie Chainglider). If I use an open chain, a good one lasts 2200km and a cheap SRAM is lucky to see a thousand miles/1600km.

I get about 5,000 miles/8,000k out of a chain but it differs depending
on how clean I keep it and what I'm riding in/on. I am pretty sure I
have worn out a chain in as few as 2,000 miles/3,200k.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Andre Jute]

Sorry, I should have said, Ernie. Touring bikes, from fast, lightly loaded to heavily loaded camping tourers; there's one guy who goes into the desert carrying more water than a camel. The ones with the fabulous mileages on their chains are all Rohloff hub gear bikes. Maybe the permanent straight run of the chain has something to do with it.

Duane, the KMC chains I use are designed for 8sp derailleurs. KMC chain names include the number of speeds, as in X8-93 or X8-99, which are both 8sp chains differing only in exterior coating. I don't know how many speeds James runs.

Andre Jute

[davethedave]

I'm on kmc cheapos and seem to get 3500 - 4000km rain is not really a
factor where I live. Dust on the other hand and salt spray are a bit of a
pain. It's removed, cleaned and lubed regularly. I was dead proud I did
more miles on a bike than my dad did in his motorhome last year...

I'm still an unfit :| smoking and drinking :) balding bloke though. :(

There's just no winning.
--
davethedave

[davethedave]

On Tue, 14 May 2013 10:47:55 -0700, Andre Jute wrote:

>> especially considering my chain runs inside a completely enclosing case
>>
>> (Hebie Chainglider). If I use an open chain, a good one lasts 2200km
>> and a
>>
>> cheap SRAM is lucky to see a thousand miles/1600km.

>> MTB or road?
>
> Sorry, I should have said, Ernie. Touring bikes, from fast, lightly
> loaded to heavily loaded camping tourers; there's one guy who goes into
> the desert carrying more water than a camel. The ones with the fabulous
> mileages on their chains are all Rohloff hub gear bikes. Maybe the
> permanent straight run of the chain has something to do with it.

You may have something there. I'm on a Shimano Alfine 11 speed. The
completely straight chain line thing may improve chain life dramatically.
However I'd take a derailleur system on my next bike. The """maintenance
free""" Alfine is just a constant worry in terms of breakdown. It pisses
oil like there is no tomorrow. In the grand old scheme of things a few
more chains are neither here nor there in cost. Warranty is one thing but
when you have to post the drive train of your primary mode of transport
internationally for repairs and wait for a replacement for about a month
or three (customs are a bitch here) whilst paying for buses and cabs it
all gets a bit much. There is a lot to be said for simplicity and user
serviceability.


--
davethedave

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 9:59:39 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote:
>
> I was dead proud I did
>
> more miles on a bike than my dad did in his motorhome last year...
>
>
>
> I'm still an unfit :| smoking and drinking :) balding bloke though. :(
>
>
>
> There's just no winning.

True, life's a bitch, and then you die. But you can now drink more and smoke more while contemplating hair loss, without the prospect of death being quite as imminent as before.

Andre Jute
Morbid consolations

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:13:53 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote:

> However I'd take a derailleur system on my next bike. The """maintenance
>
> free""" Alfine is just a constant worry in terms of breakdown. It pisses
>
> oil like there is no tomorrow. In the grand old scheme of things a few
>
> more chains are neither here nor there in cost. Warranty is one thing but
>
> when you have to post the drive train of your primary mode of transport
>
> internationally for repairs and wait for a replacement for about a month
>
> or three (customs are a bitch here) whilst paying for buses and cabs it
>
> all gets a bit much. There is a lot to be said for simplicity and user
>
> serviceability.

I've met almost no one who, having tried a Rohloff, didn't consider it the number solution to the mainenance problem. Twice a year I don't even get my hands dirty in servicing my entire bike, including the Rohloff. At the Rohloff end, twice a year I undo a thumscrew on the EXT click box, glance at the Phil grease inside, nod my head wisely, and screw it back up. The logic is at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html with photographs if you're into bike pron and green goo. Once a year I screw in a cattle-type hypodermic and change the oil inside the Rohloff. I also have old-fashioned Philips platform pedals, which I bought NOS on Ebay, which are supposed to be oiled, every month, but I didn't know that so I washed all the ancient grease out of them with a can of sewing machine oil, then forcepacked them with high quality ceramic grease, and now they appear to require no further service. I also lounge around with a small torque wrench in my hand while my wife brings me drinks, pretending to be a bike mechanic checking every nut and bolt, but of course nothing is ever loose, as my bike was built by Germans.

The handwaving aside, the Rohloff really is the key component on a truly low maintenance bike. In the extremely rare case that it breaks, Rohloff usually gets it back to you, at their expense, within the week. The Hebie Chainglider follows closely in the second spot. I don't even clean or oil my chain, I just run it inside the Chainglider on the factory lube.

Andre Jute

[James]

On 14/05/13 21:35, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:07:07 AM UTC+1, James wrote on another
> thread:
>
>> I use a Campag Veloce chain ....
>>
>> I've been running 2 chains on the one cassette (not at the same
>> time), and swap chains every 2 months or so. .... So far the 3
>> components have lasted about 10,000km. ... .... I think they're
>> nearly ready to be retired.
>
> You paid for two Campy chains and got 10k km out of the pair? That's
> only about 11% better than I do. I got 4506km out of my last X8 KMC
> chain.

2 chains and 1 cassette. Had I run 1 chain only, the cassette would
have been worn out in half the time also.

$48 for the cheapest 10s Campag cassette and $33 for a chain, so $80
every 6 months, or $110 every 12 months. That's why I run 2 chains.

Mind you, I haven't measured the chain(s) yet. I'm only guessing they
must be about stuffed. I might leave them in service for a while yet,
so I don't break in a new chain during the worst of Winter.

9 deg. C here this morning, and wet and windy. Not my idea of fine
riding weather, and it's not even Winter yet.

> There are guys on the Thorn netsite, where I hang out because of the
> good Rohloff info, who commute in all kinds of British weather and
> get 10K plus out of a chain, every time. I'm just about the hardest
> guy on chains there, especially considering my chain runs inside a
> completely enclosing case (Hebie Chainglider). If I use an open
> chain, a good one lasts 2200km and a cheap SRAM is lucky to see a
> thousand miles/1600km.

Yep, SRAM was found to be about the worst for wear in the Wippermann
tests too.

--
JS

[James]

The width of the chain makes a huge difference. The bearing surfaces in
a 10s chain compared to a single speed are way smaller, and hence wear
much faster.

--
JS.

[raamman]

On May 14, 5:39 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:13:53 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote:
> > However I'd take a derailleur system on my next bike. The """maintenance
>
> > free""" Alfine is just a constant worry in terms of breakdown. It pisses
>
> > oil like there is no tomorrow. In the grand old scheme of things a few
>
> > more chains are neither here nor there in cost. Warranty is one thing but
>
> > when you have to post the drive train of your primary mode of transport
>
> > internationally for repairs and wait for a replacement for about a month
>
> > or three (customs are a bitch here) whilst paying for buses and cabs it
>
> > all gets a bit much. There is a lot to be said for simplicity and user
>
> > serviceability.
>

> I've met almost no one who, having tried a Rohloff, didn't consider it the number solution to the mainenance problem. Twice a year I don't even get my hands dirty in servicing my entire bike, including the Rohloff. At the Rohloff end, twice a year I undo a thumscrew on the EXT click box, glance at the Phil grease inside, nod my head wisely, and screw it back up. The logic is at  http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.htmlwith photographs if you're into bike pron and green goo. Once a year I screw in a cattle-type hypodermic and change the oil inside the Rohloff. I also have old-fashioned Philips platform pedals, which I bought NOS on Ebay, which are supposed to be oiled, every month, but I didn't know that so I washed all the ancient grease out of them with a can of sewing machine oil, then forcepacked them with high quality ceramic grease, and now they appear to require no further service.  I also lounge around with a small torque wrench in my hand while my wife brings me drinks, pretending to be a bike mechanic checking every nut and bolt, but of course nothing is ever loose, as my bike was built by Germans.

>
> The handwaving aside, the Rohloff really is the key component on a truly low maintenance bike. In the extremely rare case that it breaks, Rohloff usually gets it back to you, at their expense, within the week. The Hebie Chainglider follows closely in the second spot. I don't even clean or oil my chain, I just run it inside the Chainglider on the factory lube.
>

> Andre Jute-

your wasting a lot of wattage with that internal gear system - I
expect it must get dull having to walk your bike up even moderate
grades all the time

8 days in washington looks interesting.....

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 1:31:40 AM UTC+1, raamman wrote:
> On May 14, 5:39 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:13:53 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote:
>
> > > However I'd take a derailleur system on my next bike. The """maintenance
>
> >
>
> > > free""" Alfine is just a constant worry in terms of breakdown. It pisses
>
> >
>
> > > oil like there is no tomorrow. In the grand old scheme of things a few
>
> >
>
> > > more chains are neither here nor there in cost. Warranty is one thing but
>
> >
>
> > > when you have to post the drive train of your primary mode of transport
>
> >
>
> > > internationally for repairs and wait for a replacement for about a month
>
> >
>
> > > or three (customs are a bitch here) whilst paying for buses and cabs it
>
> >
>
> > > all gets a bit much. There is a lot to be said for simplicity and user
>
> >
>
> > > serviceability.
>
> >
>

> > I've met almost no one who, having tried a Rohloff, didn't consider it the number one solution to the mainenance problem. Twice a year I don't even get my hands dirty in servicing my entire bike, including the Rohloff. At the Rohloff end, twice a year I undo a thumscrew on the EXT click box, glance at the Phil grease inside, nod my head wisely, and screw it back up. The logic is at  http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.htmlwith photographs if you're into bike pron and green goo. Once a year I screw in a cattle-type hypodermic and change the oil inside the Rohloff. I also have old-fashioned Philips platform pedals, which I bought NOS on Ebay, which are supposed to be oiled, every month, but I didn't know that so I washed all the ancient grease out of them with a can of sewing machine oil, then forcepacked them with high quality ceramic grease, and now they appear to require no further service.  I also lounge around with a small torque wrench in my hand while my wife brings me drinks, pretending to be a bike mechanic checking every nut and bolt, but of course nothing is ever loose, as my bike was built by Germans.

>
> >
>
> > The handwaving aside, the Rohloff really is the key component on a truly low maintenance bike. In the extremely rare case that it breaks, Rohloff usually gets it back to you, at their expense, within the week. The Hebie Chainglider follows closely in the second spot. I don't even clean or oil my chain, I just run it inside the Chainglider on the factory lube.
>
> >
>
> > Andre Jute-
>
>
>
> your wasting a lot of wattage with that internal gear system - I
>
> expect it must get dull having to walk your bike up even moderate
>
> grades all the time

Nope, I don't push, ever. I live on the steepest hill in town, and I would just cycle up it slowly in the lowest gear, barely able to keep my balance, past the peloton of pushers. Rohloff has an enormous gear range. Recently, after a couple of heart surgeries, one of which nearly killed me, I fitted an electric motor but I use it so sparingly that I have never run the 8.8Ah battery flat, though I live in very hilly country.

In fact, in independent tests, the Rohloff internal hub compared very well with derailleurs for efficiency, and, depending how your bike is specced, there could be a weight saving, though it's really irrelevant to your main Rohloff user, who isn't a roadie, or even a tourer, but a mudplugger.

> 8 days in washington looks interesting.....

Thanks. If you're a reader who writes reviews, you can get a free copy by dropping a note to info at coolmainpress with the com extension, mentioning the book's name.

[Lou Holtman]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 2:31:40 AM UTC+2, raamman wrote:
> On May 14, 5:39 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:13:53 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote: > > However I'd take a derailleur system on my next bike. The """maintenance > > > free""" Alfine is just a constant worry in terms of breakdown. It pisses > > > oil like there is no tomorrow. In the grand old scheme of things a few > > > more chains are neither here nor there in cost. Warranty is one thing but > > > when you have to post the drive train of your primary mode of transport > > > internationally for repairs and wait for a replacement for about a month > > > or three (customs are a bitch here) whilst paying for buses and cabs it > > > all gets a bit much. There is a lot to be said for simplicity and user > > > serviceability. > > I've met almost no one who, having tried a Rohloff, didn't consider it the number solution to the mainenance problem. Twice a year I don't even get my hands dirty in servicing my entire bike, including the Rohloff. At the Rohloff end, twice a year I undo a thumscrew on the EXT click box, glance at the Phil grease inside, nod my head wisely, and screw it back up. The logic is at  http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.htmlwith photographs if you're into bike pron and green goo. Once a year I screw in a cattle-type hypodermic and change the oil inside the Rohloff. I also have old-fashioned Philips platform pedals, which I bought NOS on Ebay, which are supposed to be oiled, every month, but I didn't know that so I washed all the ancient grease out of them with a can of sewing machine oil, then forcepacked them with high quality ceramic grease, and now they appear to require no further service.  I also lounge around with a small torque wrench in my hand while my wife brings me drinks, pretending to be a bike mechanic checking every nut and bolt, but of course nothing is ever loose, as my bike was built by Germans. > > The handwaving aside, the Rohloff really is the key component on a truly low maintenance bike. In the extremely rare case that it breaks, Rohloff usually gets it back to you, at their expense, within the week. The Hebie Chainglider follows closely in the second spot. I don't even clean or oil my chain, I just run it inside the Chainglider on the factory lube. > > Andre Jute- your wasting a lot of wattage with that internal gear system - I expect it must get dull having to walk your bike up even moderate grades all the time 8 days in washington looks interesting.....

Range, even steps between gears and efficiency are what makes the Rohloff special compared to other internal gear hubs. If a Rohloff hub wasn't as efficient as a derailleur system I wouldn't have one on my ATB. After a couple of km through the mud a Rohloff hub is even more efficient that a derailleur.

Lou

[Duane]

On 5/14/2013 6:22 PM, James wrote:
> On 14/05/13 21:35, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:07:07 AM UTC+1, James wrote on another
>> thread:
>>
>>> I use a Campag Veloce chain ....
>>>
>>> I've been running 2 chains on the one cassette (not at the same
>>> time), and swap chains every 2 months or so. .... So far the 3
>>> components have lasted about 10,000km. ... .... I think they're
>>> nearly ready to be retired.
>>
>> You paid for two Campy chains and got 10k km out of the pair? That's
>> only about 11% better than I do. I got 4506km out of my last X8 KMC
>> chain.
>
> 2 chains and 1 cassette. Had I run 1 chain only, the cassette would have
> been worn out in half the time also.
>
> $48 for the cheapest 10s Campag cassette and $33 for a chain, so $80
> every 6 months, or $110 every 12 months. That's why I run 2 chains.
>
> Mind you, I haven't measured the chain(s) yet. I'm only guessing they
> must be about stuffed. I might leave them in service for a while yet, so
> I don't break in a new chain during the worst of Winter.
>
> 9 deg. C here this morning, and wet and windy. Not my idea of fine
> riding weather, and it's not even Winter yet.

LOL 9C Sunday, raining with gusts to 50k. Springtime in Quebec.
Got up to a wopping 12C last night for the training ride.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per raamman:

>your wasting a lot of wattage with that internal gear system - I
>expect it must get dull having to walk your bike up even moderate
>grades all the time

In my experience "A lot" is way, way, way overstated.

Rohloff's own assessment is at http://tinyurl.com/amgbpbw

I can't find a comparison of Rohloff vs a clean der at the moment, but
my recollection is that the diff is about 1% in some gears and zero in
direct drive (gear 11).

Personally, I think I can feel the diff in gears 1-7 but in gears 8-14 I
cannot. And walking the bike up a grade just doesn't happen.. period.

Also, I have my bike set up so that ear 11 (direct drive) gives me my
cruising speed.

Nobody's talking about weight. The Rohloff hub adds a solid two pounds
to the bike's weight. I don't mind it myself - I'm a slow rider - but
there are those who would say it would make them uncompetitive in a
race.
--
Pete Cresswell

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Lou Holtman:

>
>Range, even steps between gears and efficiency are what makes the Rohloff special compared to other internal gear hubs. If a Rohloff hub wasn't as efficient as a derailleur system I wouldn't have one on my ATB. After a couple of km through the mud a Rohloff hub is even more efficient that a derailleur.

I ride too slowly to be one of the potentially-affected, but I would
think that the even spacing of Rohloff bears (13.something percent?)
would be a problem for people who have to ride competitively or
semi-competitively (as in keeping up with a pack). At the top end, 13
percent is a pretty big jump. OTOH, I can see dual chain wheels on the
front with a 1-tooth diff....
--
Pete Cresswell

[Lou Holtman]

On 2013-05-15 15:37:24 +0000, (PeteCresswell) said:

>
> cruising speed.
>
> Nobody's talking about weight. The Rohloff hub adds a solid two pounds
> to the bike's weight. I don't mind it myself - I'm a slow rider - but
> there are those who would say it would make them uncompetitive in a
> race.

Do you have the numbers? Two pound (0.9 kg) extra seems way to much to me.


--

Lou

[Andre Jute]

Mmm, interesting. I've heard this before, a few times, but the fact that you so infrequently hear of a twin chainwheel Rohloff installation, which isn't rocket science to achieve, indicates to me that the practical advantages are less than those the theory implies.

Andre Jute

[Lou Holtman]

I agree for road racing but no one in his right mind considers a
Rohloff for road racing. For ATB use a popular cassette is 11-32T :
(11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32T) around here. In practice you only shift
in the back after chosing the chainring. The jumps between the gears
are 9-16.7-14-12.5-16.7-14.3-16.7-14% so what are we talking about?
--

Lou

[Andre Jute]

11C here and I'm still wearing long underwear because from there it falls off a cliff to 5-6-7C . When I first came to live in Ireland, people laughed at me because I walked around in a fur coat.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:22:40 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
>
> 2 chains and 1 cassette. Had I run 1 chain only, the cassette would
>
> have been worn out in half the time also.
>
>
>
> $48 for the cheapest 10s Campag cassette and $33 for a chain, so $80
>
> every 6 months, or $110 every 12 months. That's why I run 2 chains.

Okay, a system, not just spot components. But ever since I switched to steel chainrings, I haven't worn out one. The cheap (by European standards -- in its home country it's a premium product) Indian Amar steel chainwheel that wore out a KMC chain at 4506km was hardly marked but I replaced it because it was only intended to be a temporary fitting on an expensive bike until I could source an aesthetically crank, and I'd found a supplier of the Japanese Sugino Cospea (mine's branded Stronglight but it's the genie cold forged Sugino item, just relabeled).

Before I used to run Shimano Nexus cranksets (the ring is attached) and they and their associated sprockets were cheap shit, wearing really badly by about 2000km. One sprocket that I babied to 3200km just to see if I could had these pointy little baby teeth left. I was amazed that it worked at all.

I now run a Surly stainless chainring. But, rising 2000km, there is no visible wear, and I think it will see out many chains. It cost €38 landed, and three KMC X8-99 cost €42 on sale, landed, so if all of that is worn out in 13518km, the cost in eurocents will be 8000/13518 or about 0.6 cent per kilometer, which seems pretty reasonable to me. Depending on annual mileage, that isn't significant against writing off the capital cost of a bike over, say, ten years. (I choose ten years because my bike is guaranteed, labour and parts, for ten years. Many RBTers have bikes that have lasted longer.)

Andre Jute

[Sepp Ruf]

Lou Holtman wrote:

> I agree for road racing but no one in his right mind considers a Rohloff
> for road racing. For ATB use a popular cassette is 11-32T :
> (11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32T) around here. In practice you only shift in
> the back after chosing the chainring. The jumps between the gears are
> 9-16.7-14-12.5-16.7-14.3-16.7-14% so what are we talking about?

quite obviously, about one of those "popular" cassettes offering
horrible gear steps.

[Duane]

One of the guys in my riding group - Feargal is from you're part of the
world.
Said he felt at home last Sunday.

[thirty-six]

On May 14, 12:35 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 7:07:07 AM UTC+1, James wrote on another thread:
>
> > I use a Campag Veloce chain ....
>
> > I've been running 2 chains on the one cassette (not at the same time),
> > and swap chains every 2 months or so. ....  So far the 3 components have lasted about 10,000km. ...
> >....  I think they're nearly ready to be retired.
>
> You paid for two Campy chains and got 10k km out of the pair? That's only about 11%  better than I do. I got 4506km out of my last X8 KMC chain.

Molybdenum disulphide !!

[thirty-six]

On May 14, 10:39 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:13:53 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote:
> > However I'd take a derailleur system on my next bike. The """maintenance
>
> > free""" Alfine is just a constant worry in terms of breakdown. It pisses
>
> > oil like there is no tomorrow. In the grand old scheme of things a few
>
> > more chains are neither here nor there in cost. Warranty is one thing but
>
> > when you have to post the drive train of your primary mode of transport
>
> > internationally for repairs and wait for a replacement for about a month
>
> > or three (customs are a bitch here) whilst paying for buses and cabs it
>
> > all gets a bit much. There is a lot to be said for simplicity and user
>
> > serviceability.
>

> I've met almost no one who, having tried a Rohloff, didn't consider it the number solution to the mainenance problem. Twice a year I don't even get my hands dirty in servicing my entire bike, including the Rohloff. At the Rohloff end, twice a year I undo a thumscrew on the EXT click box, glance at the Phil grease inside, nod my head wisely, and screw it back up. The logic is at  http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.htmlwith photographs if you're into bike pron and green goo. Once a year I screw in a cattle-type hypodermic and change the oil inside the Rohloff. I also have old-fashioned Philips platform pedals, which I bought NOS on Ebay, which are supposed to be oiled, every month, but I didn't know that so I washed all the ancient grease out of them with a can of sewing machine oil, then forcepacked them with high quality ceramic grease, and now they appear to require no further service.  I also lounge around with a small torque wrench in my hand while my wife brings me drinks, pretending to be a bike mechanic checking every nut and bolt, but of course nothing is ever loose, as my bike was built by Germans.

>
> The handwaving aside, the Rohloff really is the key component on a truly low maintenance bike. In the extremely rare case that it breaks, Rohloff usually gets it back to you, at their expense, within the week.

That's good business nouse. Remind us, how much?

[Andre Jute]

In the 1990s we had cycling weather virtually all year round -- I was off the bike for maybe three or four weeks over Christmas. We got spoiled, because it isn't actually typical Irish weather. What we have now, is.

Give Feargal my best regards from "sunny" West Cork.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 6:58:03 PM UTC+1, thirty-six wrote:

> Molybdenum disulphide !!

Give us a generally available brand name we can order from CRC, Trevor.

Andre Jute

[Andre Jute]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 7:13:53 PM UTC+1, thirty-six wrote:
> On May 14, 10:39 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > ... the Rohloff really is the key component on a truly low maintenance bike. In the extremely rare case that it breaks, Rohloff usually gets it back to you, at their expense, within the week.

>
> That's good business nouse. Remind us, how much?

Nothing, or round 15 bucks a year, depending on how you reckon it. If you keep up the 5000km/one year oil changes, which cost between a couple of bucks and about €15 each, depending on whether you buy oil in bulk or you buy the disposable convenience kits, a Rohloff warranty, technically a year or two or whatever (It's irrelevant so I don't bother to remember), runs on forever, because Bernd Rohloff doesn't charge for fixing your gearbox if it breaks, and he returns it to you by courier at his expense, anywhere in the world. So, effectively the answer to "How much?" is "Nothing," because a) the thing breaks so rarely that I can count the number of cases I've heard of, and b) you don't get charged for repairs.

In every case I've heard of a Rohloff breaking it was in the hands of a hard man doing something extraordinary, like a heavily loaded Third World tour.

I'm really the wrong guy to ask. My use is so little and so light, by Rohloff standards, that my box is just run in at about 6300km. By contrast, I broke two Shimano Nexus boxes before they travelled 5000km. Nobody knows the service life of a Rohloff gearbox, but 100,000km Rohloff boxes going strong are now commonplace.

Andre Jute

[James]

On 16/05/13 03:00, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:22:40 PM UTC+1, James wrote:
>>
>> 2 chains and 1 cassette. Had I run 1 chain only, the cassette
>> would
>>
>> have been worn out in half the time also.
>>
>>
>>
>> $48 for the cheapest 10s Campag cassette and $33 for a chain, so
>> $80
>>
>> every 6 months, or $110 every 12 months. That's why I run 2
>> chains.
>
> Okay, a system, not just spot components. But ever since I switched
> to steel chainrings, I haven't worn out one. The cheap (by European
> standards -- in its home country it's a premium product) Indian Amar
> steel chainwheel that wore out a KMC chain at 4506km was hardly
> marked but I replaced it because it was only intended to be a
> temporary fitting on an expensive bike until I could source an
> aesthetically crank, and I'd found a supplier of the Japanese Sugino
> Cospea (mine's branded Stronglight but it's the genie cold forged
> Sugino item, just relabeled).
>
> Before I used to run Shimano Nexus cranksets (the ring is attached)
> and they and their associated sprockets were cheap shit, wearing
> really badly by about 2000km. One sprocket that I babied to 3200km
> just to see if I could had these pointy little baby teeth left. I was
> amazed that it worked at all.
>
> I now run a Surly stainless chainring. But, rising 2000km, there is

> no visible wear, and I think it will see out many chains. It cost �38
> landed, and three KMC X8-99 cost �42 on sale, landed, so if all of

> that is worn out in 13518km, the cost in eurocents will be 8000/13518
> or about 0.6 cent per kilometer, which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> Depending on annual mileage, that isn't significant against writing
> off the capital cost of a bike over, say, ten years. (I choose ten
> years because my bike is guaranteed, labour and parts, for ten years.
> Many RBTers have bikes that have lasted longer.)
>

I replaced the Campag chainrings that I eventually wore out, with
something like Blackspire or TA. Anyway, it was so long ago, I can't
remember exactly when. Probably 2-3 years. The 53t is getting a little
tired, and I might replace it this year. The small ring is fine. I
don't use it as much.

One day, someone will make chainrings with steel teeth that are somehow
swaged and pinned onto an Al carrier. Then coat the teeth with titanium
nitride.

My previous bike frame was at least 10 years old when I stripped it down
and rebuilt it with new or near new components for a mate. He has been
riding it for the past few years. Good steel frames, well cared for,
can often be fine for 20 years or more. It's the uber light or rust
affected ones that don't always last that long.

--
JS

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Lou Holtman:

>Do you have the numbers? Two pound (0.9 kg) extra seems way to much to me.

The numbers depend on the weight of the der system the Rohloff is
replacing.

The install where I measured was an SRAM-8 system and the weight
increase was almost exactly 2 pounds... maybe a few ounces more, but not
less.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Duane]

I'm originally from New Orleans. You can ride most of the year there
though August is some time too hot.

> Give Feargal my best regards from "sunny" West Cork.

Yep.

[frkr...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 6:11:09 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
> Good steel frames, well cared for,
>
> can often be fine for 20 years or more. It's the uber light or rust
>
> affected ones that don't always last that long.

My utility bike is a Raleigh Super Course built in 1972, so it's gone over double that 20 years! It's still ridden almost daily.

- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Thes guys come up with a difference of 490 gr compared to a XT
derailleursystem:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedhub_500/14
That is closer to my perception. If it was more than that I can't
figure out why my Rohloff equipped ATB end up at 12.1 kg including
pedals.
--

Lou

[James]

Comparing a Rohloff equipped road bike to a road bike with derailleurs..

1700g V 850g

(80g 1x front ring + 80g front der. + 200g rear der. + 230g cassette +
260g rear hub)

Ok, I left out the extra 30g of chain and difference in shifter weight,
but I don't see 2 pounds either.

Maybe compared to a 6 speed? ;-)

--
JS

[Jay Beattie]

Those weights are for light road components, too -- you need to up
those weights quite a bit for MTB components. The spread is probably
about what is claimed on the Wiki site -- about a pound and a quarter.

-- Jay Beattie.

[James]

I was trying to see how Pete could get near a "not less than 2 pound"
difference. What I calculated was close, but not quite. Was Pete
talking about road or MTB? I don't recall.

--
JS

[Andre Jute]

Two pounds come to 908 grams, a long way off the 490 grams Lou was talking about. But, you see, Rohloff people generally start with at least an ATB or an MTB or even a mud plugger mentality. Like Lou said, nobody in his right mind starts designing a road bike, unless it has to double as a loaded tourer, with a Rohloff hub in the centre of the rear wheel. A few people who don't have to count the pennies use Rohloff hubs in utility bikes, and it is popular among all-weather commuters too. A pound is nothing in that sort of touring/all-weather commuting/utility context, which I repeat is much nearer the Rohloff's natural milieu than road racing, even a pound and a quarter, which Jay mentions. Two pounds just stops us because it is a bigger number for the difference than we've ever heard before. I think Pete's comparing apples and oranges. You have to count all the bits on both systems to make a fair comparison.

None of this is strictly meaningful. You fit a Rohloff hub to heavier class of frame than a road bike, anyhow. Most road bikes just don't have the rear end spread required to fit a Rohloff hub. Horses for courses.

Andre Jute

[Lou Holtman]

On Friday, May 17, 2013 3:52:20 AM UTC+2, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, May 17, 2013 1:29:18 AM UTC+1, James wrote: > On 17/05/13 10:19, Jay Beattie wrote: > > > On May 16, 3:34 pm, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> On 17/05/13 07:56, Lou Holtman wrote: > > >>> On 2013-05-16 13:17:29 +0000, (PeteCresswell) said: > > >> > > >>>> Per Lou Holtman: > > >>>>> Do you have the numbers? Two pound (0.9 kg) extra seems way to much > > >>>>> to me. > > >> > > >>>> The numbers depend on the weight of the der system the Rohloff is > > >>>> replacing. > > >> > > >>>> The install where I measured was an SRAM-8 system and the weight > > >>>> increase was almost exactly 2 pounds... maybe a few ounces more, but not > > >>>> less. > > >> > > >>> Thes guys come up with a difference of 490 gr compared to a XT > > >>> derailleursystem: > > >>> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedhub_500/14 > > >>> That is closer to my perception. If it was more than that I can't figure > > >>> out why my Rohloff equipped ATB end up at 12.1 kg including pedals. > > >> > > >> Comparing a Rohloff equipped road bike to a road bike with derailleurs.. > > >> > > >> 1700g V 850g > > >> > > >> (80g 1x front ring + 80g front der. + 200g rear der. + 230g cassette + > > >> 260g rear hub) > > >> > > >> Ok, I left out the extra 30g of chain and difference in shifter weight, > > >> but I don't see 2 pounds either. > > >> > > >> Maybe compared to a 6 speed? ;-) > > > > > > Those weights are for light road components, too -- you need to up > > > those weights quite a bit for MTB components. The spread is probably > > > about what is claimed on the Wiki site -- about a pound and a quarter. > > > > > > > I was trying to see how Pete could get near a "not less than 2 pound" > > difference. What I calculated was close, but not quite. Was Pete > > talking about road or MTB? I don't recall. > > > > -- > > JS Two pounds come to 908 grams, a long way off the 490 grams Lou was talking about. But, you see, Rohloff people generally start with at least an ATB or an MTB or even a mud plugger mentality. Like Lou said, nobody in his right mind starts designing a road bike, unless it has to double as a loaded tourer, with a Rohloff hub in the centre of the rear wheel. A few people who don't have to count the pennies use Rohloff hubs in utility bikes, and it is popular among all-weather commuters too. A pound is nothing in that sort of touring/all-weather commuting/utility context, which I repeat is much nearer the Rohloff's natural milieu than road racing, even a pound and a quarter, which Jay mentions. Two pounds just stops us because it is a bigger number for the difference than we've ever heard before. I think Pete's comparing apples and oranges. You have to count all the bits on both systems to make a fair comparison. None of this is strictly meaningful. You fit a Rohloff hub to heavier class of frame than a road bike, anyhow. Most road bikes just don't have the rear end spread required to fit a Rohloff hub. Horses for courses. Andre Jute

Exactly. If you compare a Rohloff hub with a derailleur system (weight, efficiency and range) you have to keep in mind for what purposes Rohloff designed the hub for. It is useless to compare a Campy Super Record equipped road bike with a corn cob cassette with a Rohloff hub.
For ATB use and for every other all weather minimum maintenance use, Rohloff did a remarkable job. My colleague is an all weather commuter and was fed up with the hassle and maintenance of his derailleur system. I suggested a Rohloff hub. He was shocked about the cost at first. One way or the other I was able to convince him and he spent the 2700 euro for a really nice Rohloff equipped bike with Magure HS11 hydraulic rim brakes and a nice dynohub lighting system. Despite of the enormous amout he spent on a commuter bike he thanks me every time he sees me for my advice.
If they made a shifter for dropbars that don't look like a kludge I would replace the derailleur for a Rohloff hub in an eyeblink on my crossbike. After many of my rides on my crossbike the bike look like this:

<https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/Misc#5830402536425331650>

WTF

Lou

[Jay Beattie]

2,700 euro is more than twice what I spent on the Cannondale CX bike
that I use as a commuter. It gets ridden year round in rain and much
and has infrequent problems, and I rarely fuss with the derailleurs,
except when they become so caked with crap that I can't see the teeth
on the pulley wheels.

-- Jay Beattie.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per James:

>
>
>I was trying to see how Pete could get near a "not less than 2 pound"
>difference. What I calculated was close, but not quite. Was Pete
>talking about road or MTB? I don't recall.

The bike I weighed everything on was an FS MTB.

Maybe I weighed wrong.... but I did it two ways: individual components
summed up and total bike weight before-and-after and they agreed.

But I'd never rule out the possibility of my screwing something up.
--
Pete Cresswell

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Lou Holtman:

>After many of my rides on my crossbike the bike look like this:
>
><https://picasaweb.google.com/101076538433373858645/Misc#5830402536425331650>

Here's a day when I was really glad for Rohloff:
http://tinyurl.com/aqnske6

--
Pete Cresswell

[Lou Holtman]

Op 17-5-2013 16:36, Jay Beattie schreef:

That is because we are bike nerds and you are cheap ;-).
He rides something like this:

http://www.janjanssen.nl/configurator.php?Id=14

Lou