Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan finally admits steel is _not_ real.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

"Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."

https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 9:03:50 AM UTC-4, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>
> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

"You just copy some geometry from another brand and make it a bit longer, lower and slacker. Then you stick a few tubes together and Bob’s your uncle.”

[AMuzi]

On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
>
> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>

I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
Fool's item.
Pathetic.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:11:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
> >
> > https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> >
>
> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> Fool's item.
> Pathetic.
>

The book is real, but parody.

>Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Happy Anniversary, BTW

[Tom Kunich]

Uhhh - a cool thousand lbs for a coffee table book not an April Fool's fantasy? Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think. Single pivots if designed correctly work ok if not as well as multiple pivots. Exactly how good does the average MTB rider need? "After the first million:"? From a backyard shed?

[Frank Krygowski]

Good catch! +1

... assuming that's real.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 4/1/2022 10:20 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:11:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."

>>>
>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>
>>
>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>> Fool's item.
>> Pathetic.
>>
>
> The book is real, but parody.
>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Happy Anniversary, BTW
>

Thank you.

And thank you again; I was taken in as it wasn't beyond
belief, given the modern world as we find it.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
> > >
> > > https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> > >
> >
> > I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> > Fool's item.
> > Pathetic.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971

> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.

Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.

Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?

[John B.]

Well, not to bolster anyone's arguments but "steel" an alloy of iron
and carbon, has been in use for thousands of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
"The earliest known production of steel is seen in pieces of ironware
excavated from an archaeological site in Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehöyük)
and are nearly 4,000 years old, dating from 1800 BC."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."

>>>>
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>>
>>>
>>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>>> Fool's item.
>>> Pathetic.

>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
>
> Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
>

> Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?
>

It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).

Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."

[Tom Kunich]

So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old. The old plain steel which was almost iron broke all of the time. So they simply made frames heavier and pipe wall thickness deeper.

Real steel that really showed the value of itself was Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL. Then Reynolds developed 853 and Oria made whatever the hell they call their stuff. I had a Basso Loto made out of that Oria and it was just about the perfect material. American tubing may be better and when it is welded instead of lugged and soldered it is nearly the same weight at a titanium frame which they have to build pretty heavy because of the difference in strength.

[AMuzi]

On 4/1/2022 8:21 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:00:59 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>>>>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."

>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>>>>> Fool's item.
>>>>> Pathetic.
>>>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
>>>
>>> Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
>>>

>>> Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?

>>>
>>
>> It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
>> Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).
>>
>> Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
>> Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."
>

> So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old. The old plain steel which was almost iron broke all of the time. So they simply made frames heavier and pipe wall thickness deeper.
>
> Real steel that really showed the value of itself was Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL. Then Reynolds developed 853 and Oria made whatever the hell they call their stuff. I had a Basso Loto made out of that Oria and it was just about the perfect material. American tubing may be better and when it is welded instead of lugged and soldered it is nearly the same weight at a titanium frame which they have to build pretty heavy because of the difference in strength.
>

A lot has changed (~30 years) since Oria tube.

The biggest improvements are not merely trace alloying
materials but rather cleanliness (reduced impurities) and
much better uniformity both in material itself and finish
dimensions/surface. Our modern steels are superior in every
way from Oria or more dramatically from the Reynolds
531/Columbus Cyclex SL era.

Comparisons to titanium are complex and conclusions are not
easily drawn. You're on your own with that. Let's just say
steel and titanium are different.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:00:59 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 4/1/2022 7:12 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:27:42 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> > >>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
> > >>> Fool's item.
> > >>> Pathetic.
> > >> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more centuries than we care to think.
> > >
> > > Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries. I can think about three centuries pretty easily. And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries. Easy to think about.
> > >
> > > Now that the required chastisement of Tommy is out of the way. When I first read this thread I saw "over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading." And immediately thought, does this bicycle company trade stocks every day? Are they a financial advisor trading stocks for their bike customers? Or do they make steel bikes and trade them with other bike companies making aluminum or carbon bikes?
> > >
> >
> > It's a Britishism for 'operates a business', as in Cycle
> > Trader magazine (to which I once subscribed).
> >
> > Or this from historian Norman Kilgariff, quoting one W L
> > Rixon, "Ernie Clements now trades at Ledbury, Herefordshire."
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old. The old plain steel which was almost iron broke all of the time. So they simply made frames heavier and pipe wall thickness deeper.

Not sure what you are yipping and yapping about here Tommy. My quote was:

"Technically, bicycles have been involved in three centuries. 1800s, 1900s, and 2000s. Three centuries."

19th century. The 1800s.
20th century. The 1900s.
21st century. The 2000s.
One, Two, Three. Three centuries bicycles have been a part of.

The other part of my quote is:

"And really its only been about 150 years since bicycles were invented. One and a half centuries."

Guessing bicycles came about in the late 1800s or so. High wheeler bikes. So from lets say 1870 to 2022, that is about 150 years. Give or take a few years one way or the other.

Seems pretty simple what I wrote. But then there is Tommy.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 2:33:01 AM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

> > So according to Russell, Chrome Moly Steel which is a product of the 1900's is 3 centuries old.

> Not sure what you are yipping and yapping about here Tommy.

Yeah, I saw that and just passed it off as yet another example of tommys bizarre reading comprehension.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 9:43:43 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Comparisons to titanium are complex and conclusions are not
> easily drawn. You're on your own with that. Let's just say
> steel and titanium are different.

On that note, it really all comes down to the competence of the frame builder.

I have two Tom Kellogg frames:
- 1991 Merlin Road, designed by Kellogg and built in their Somerville facility (titanium, obviously)
- 1985 Ross Signature built at the Ross facility in Pennsylvania.

I bought the ross as a beater from a local shop. It had been repainted with no decals so there was no ready way to identify it except that the seller "told" me that is was a Kellogg frame. I took it for a spin and knew immediately this bike was quality. I distinctly remember thinking 'cripes, this thing rides as nice as my Merlin'. If anything it's slightly stiffer. I'd say it ride better than my '84 Basso Gap. The welds and lugs were obviously very well done. Hey, even if it _wasn't_ a Kellogg, for $500 ready to go (sans wheels), why not?

I did some research on this frame after I got it, and got confirmation from Tom Kellogg that the bike was actually hand built by Kelloggs chief builder Jeff Duser.
https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f22/spectrum-cycles-16052-10.html#post289772
So the Merlin is 3/2.5 Ti and the Ross is Ishiwata 022. I still ride that Ross frame as a fixed gear - just last weekend in fact (it's still in the back of my car) - and I still think it rides as nice as my Merlin. It's all about the build.

[Tom Kunich]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 6:43:43 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>
> >
> A lot has changed (~30 years) since Oria tube.
>
> The biggest improvements are not merely trace alloying
> materials but rather cleanliness (reduced impurities) and
> much better uniformity both in material itself and finish
> dimensions/surface. Our modern steels are superior in every
> way from Oria or more dramatically from the Reynolds
> 531/Columbus Cyclex SL era.
>
> Comparisons to titanium are complex and conclusions are not
> easily drawn. You're on your own with that. Let's just say
> steel and titanium are different.

I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally shattered. Steel would have bent at worst and judging from the damage would probably have had no damage. The difference between my Basso Loto Columbus SL and the Oria was extreme, With exactly the same geometry they were completely different bikes. On the bottom of a local descent there is a sudden flattening of the descent and the SL would bounce so hard that it would make you think you were going to be thrown off. The Oria did none of that and you couldn't much feel that change in angle.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally shattered.

Titanium shattered??

I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them somewhere and
give us a link?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall
thickness, tube quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup
and assembly rigor, and the nature and magnitude of the impact.

To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of
titanium chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost
longitudinal cracks out from a welded joint.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg

The more common Ti frame failures are cracks perpendicular
to the weld as we see with thin high-temper modern steel TIG
frames.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/eGqcB.jpg

[John B.]

Ti3Al8V6Cr4Mo4Zr Grade 19 Titanium, often referred to as "Beta C" is
often used as: . springs, fasteners, torsion bars and as extruded
tubulars for deep sour well applications and is listed with the MR0175
approved alloys. The alloy is heat treatable to a wide range of
strengths.

Tensile Strength MPa - 1248 (181,007 PSI)
Elastic Modulus GPa - 103 (14,938,887 PSI)
https://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1843
Sure sounds like something that would just fall apart if you tipped
the bike over.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Out of curiosity do you see similar cracks, apparently originating in
the weld bead, in welded steel frame bicycles?

I once certified on Titanium and for that test welds were made in an
enclosed box flooded with an inert gas. A friend, who worked at a
aircraft depot later told me that they had made some welds in the open
air by "flooding" the weld region with an inert gas. (which made me
wonder about how, or what, the welder was breathing (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 01 Apr 2022 10:11:25 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is in fact, not real...."

>>
>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

>I checked into that and it does not appear to be an April
>Fool's item.
>Pathetic.

36 pages and selling for £999 ($1,310.14):
<https://www.starlingcycles.com/product/starling-fallacy/>

Even the most expensive vanity press books don't cost anywhere near
that much to print. For example, $2,400 for 8 paperback books is
$300/book cost. That's $1,000/book profit if he sells all 8 books.
<https://www.xlibris.com/en/services/packages-and-services-us/publishing-packages/full-color-packages/full-color-custom>
<https://www.xlibris.com/en/services/packages-and-services-us/publishing-packages/full-color-packages>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

Yes, I remember argon weld chambers for Ti but now the
standard technique is to flood the weld zone. I am not an
expert on the details, never done it myself.

Modern thin high-temper TIG steel frames crack out from the
weld as second image link above. Traditional brazed frame
cracks usually follow the joint, along it or parallel.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/2/2022 9:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/2/2022 7:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 4/2/2022 10:14 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> I have right next to me here a titanium frame that Lemond
>>> tried to build lighter than a good steel frame. Someone
>>> rode it a small collision of some sort and it literally
>>> shattered.
>>
>> Titanium shattered??
>>
>> I'd love to see photos of that damage. Care to post them
>> somewhere and give us a link?
>>
>
> Failure mode depends on the type of titanium used, wall thickness, tube
> quality, weld quality, design, fixture setup and assembly rigor, and the
> nature and magnitude of the impact.
>
> To be clear I've never seen 'shattered' to include a pile of titanium
> chips in the lane. The dramatic ones are big almost longitudinal cracks
> out from a welded joint.
>
> https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/907x1210/broken_gold_rush_frame_2_sm_47a09d26c67d4d883de3d20a7eca71160011c0b4.jpg

Interesting. Do you know much about how that failure occurred?

I'll admit that I don't know much about welding titanium. But those are
pretty massive welds behind the head tube, and to me the crack hints
that the head tube itself was in circumferential tension, with stresses
pulling towards the welds. It makes me wonder if some post-weld stress
relief heat treatment would be worthwhile.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GFO4uss0VM makes no mention
of any heat treatment. But it also makes no mention of inert gas
shielding, which I'm sure they're using, so I wonder if it's just not
detailed enough. It looks like the frame tubes are plugged, so I suppose
argon or whatever is protecting the inside (back side) of the welds.



--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I absolutely agree with you. My point was that if you actually try to build a superlight titanium frame it will NOT be strong enough to perform well as a road bike.

[AMuzi]

I don't know the specifics, that's a web image I found
yesterday. But it's typical of the crack form & direction,
although I've seen more Ti cracks at the BB than anywhere else.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Litespeed made the Ghisallo model. It was around 850 grams. I knew a woman who rode one very well. I do not know if 6 foot 10 inch 300 pound NFL linemen rode Ghisallo models or not.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 10:35:05 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

Not sure how your superlight titanium frame compares to the aluminum ALAN and Vitus frames of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. They were around 1200 grams for frame plus another 450 or so for the aluminum fork. Superlight? Much lighter than steel at the time. ALAN frames won all of the cyclocross races in the 1970s. Sean Kelly rode the Vitus 979 frame successfully in the 80s and 90s. Are you saying Sean Kelly did not have a good road bike?

[AMuzi]

Every manufactured thing has some measurable incidence of
failure. In modern bicycles the rates are extremely small,
which is part of why they interest us.

BTW a 66cm frame is normally built with proportionally
heavier gauge tube.

[John B.]

Well, I can tell you from experience that the weld is being protected
by some inert gas while welding. As he seems to be welding without the
inert gas filled "welding Chamber" that was used when I 'certified"
then they must be flooding the weld area with a much higher then
normal gas flow through the torch.
.
The giveaway statement is his reference to the color of the weld bead.
The clear or only faintly yellow color he mentions can only be
attained if oxygen is not in contact with the metal while being
welded.

I would question how are they protecting the back of the weld? I don't
see any gas hoses inserted into the frame to purge the back of the
weld.

Note that a 100% weld is a weld that the entire thickness of the metal
being welded is melted and thus protection is needed on both sides of
the material.

Another note: When I certifying any color at all of the weld bead or
parent metal, when welding titanium, was reason to condemn the weld.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Obviously one cannot really diagnose a problems from simply looking at
photos but one might think what when a crack started in a weld that
the weld was, perhaps, imperfect.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And a BB usually has two weld beads in close proximity to each other.
Thus if it is the welds that are at fault the problem would probably
be maximized there.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Yes, we agree on those points.
Generally:
https://www.thefabricator.com/tubepipejournal/article/arcwelding/tig-for-titanium-tubing

Specifically for bicycle frame construction:
https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/titanium-bike.html

[AMuzi]

You might think so. And it may well be.

But as often as not, joint failure results from closed
figures (such as a bicycle frame) joined after being forced
into a fixture with residual stress unrelieved:

one example of many:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/soviet.html
more:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/zito.html

And sometimes, as this expensive titanium fork, designer[1]
called for an insufficiently thick material:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html

[1]I'm assuming here that no actual engineers were involved
in that multiple-failure process.

Note also that while there's a complete weld failure at the
axle slot, a more typical titanium crack is at the brace
holder- extending perpendicular from the weld.

[AMuzi]

Could be.
IMHO it's because that's the portion of a bicycle most
flexed and in several planes. Cyclically.

[John B.]

True. I wasn't thinking of that as I assumed that the structure was
properly designed to avoid unusual stresses, Or perhaps I should say
stresses beyond what the fabrication was designed to withstand, as
there is always stress..
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I wondered about the lack of hoses, etc. to feed argon to the back of the weld. in that video.
I wondered if it's sufficient to seal the frame except for suitable inlet and exhaust
vents, then fill with argon and close those vents.

Also, I note that one of Andrew's links mentions the need for a trailing shield to ensure
the hot metal is protected with argon. I don't see that in the video.

BTW, part of the reason for my question about post-weld stress relief: The first large
scale welding project I ever did was a 4' x 6' x 1' deep utility trailer that I've mentioned here. All the
pieces that made up its steel skeleton were accurately cut, clamped, tacked then welded -
at least, within my abilities as a freshman welder. I held the bottom pieces in place on the shop floor
with heavy weights as I welded everything in place on top of them. But when I released the
welded assembly, it was no longer flat. Residual stresses from the welds and surrounding
metal cooling put a visible twist in the trailer's frame. It wasn't enough to affect function so I
didn't try to correct it, but it indicates how cooling metal can exert stresses.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

(:-)
Years ago I was in the Welding shop when the supervisor told a young
fellow to weld two 4' X 8' 1/4" steel plates. "Just lay them flat on
the floor and tack weld them every few inches before you start welding
them". And off we went to the coffee shop or wherever we were headed
for.

The young chap, apparently not believing the Grizzled Old Welding
Supervisor laid the two plates on the floor and started welding from
one end. By the time we got back be had welded about 2 feet and the
other end of the two plates had spread and must have been a 4" gap
between the two plates.

I do give the Welding Supervisor some credit. Instead of jumping up
and down and screaming he just said, "Well, order another two plates
and then do what I told you to do".

[AMuzi]

Classic closed-figure weld expansion syndrome.

[Tom Kunich]

The Lemond is a 62 and weighs 1,660 grams. Now, I'm not saying that this thing broke on its own - plainly I would say that it ran into a curb or the rear bumper of a car. But isn't the the entire point? If a bike can't take what had to be a rather light blow of what worth is it? I have 3 titanium bikes in the garage and not one of them could EVER be under a KG as Russell seems to suggest. If indeed there were ever a Litespeed 880 grams it would have been a 42 cm frame with 650 wheels. The practice of using the lightest possible weight on the smallest possible frame as indicative of the weight of a bike is pretty silly. Even Trek has stopped doing that and uses normally a 52 or 54 frameset.

[Tom Kunich]

In my experience, the success of a frame is the builder and not the material. The big-name builders of the titanium frames didn't do as good a job as Douglas which was the house brand of Colorado Cyclist. This was the same regardless of material. I have a couple of Douglas's here and both other them are better than most other bikes.

But my Trek Alpha is a great aluminum bike and I would recommend that to anyone.

[Tom Kunich]

My Lemond failed starting at the lower downtube water bottle screw and broke almost 360 degrees at a 30 degree angle to the tube. There was also a stress riser on the seat tube from the BB up a couple of inches. I suppose that what I'm saying is that despite claims to the opposite, titanium is not a wonder material.

[Frank Krygowski]

Somewhat related: One manufacturer I sometimes visited made specialized
machinery, for example the huge mobile mowing machines used along some
highways, with long metal arms supporting whirling blades that trim
roadside brush and trees.

The arms were long weldments, probably 20 feet long, maybe a foot
square. They had one old guy on staff who specialized in "flame
straightening." Once the welding was done, the arms were invariably a
bit bent. He had the knowledge and experience with his torch to heat
them in just the right places and to the right degree so they pulled
back into a straight condition.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Serotta, Merlin, Litespeed, Lynskey. All big-name titanium frame builders.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Litespeed Ghisallo.
https://www.active.com/articles/litespeed-ghisallo-compact-bicycle-world-s-lightest-production-frame
900 grams for M/L frame size. 56cm top tube. 73 seat and head angles. 13.5 headtube. 700C wheels. Pretty sure it was raced in the Tour de France by various riders secretively. And a pro team was sponsored by Litespeed back in the 1990s and 2000s so they probably used it for mountain stages too.

[Sepp Ruf]

Tom Kunich wrote:

> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a 36-page

>>> document in which he pleads for consumers’ forgiveness for

>>> having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the course of his

>>> bicycle company’s seven year history of trading. No longer able

>>> to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that steel is
>>> in fact, not real...."
>>>
>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/

> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more
> centuries than we care to think.

*URGENT* Please donate any "unreal heavy" / "softened" steel frames to
recycling, now! Due to Bidenato's sanctions "on Putin," some
strategically unprepared producers of wooden pallets have reportedly run
out of, formerly 90% Russian supplied, nail steel wire for assembly.

https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet

[AMuzi]

On 4/6/2022 8:53 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2022 8:03 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> "Starling Cycles founder, Joe McEwan, has released a
>>>> 36-page

>>>> document in which he pleads for consumers’

>>>> forgiveness for
>>>> having profiteered from numerous fallacies over the
>>>> course of his

>>>> bicycle company’s seven year history of trading.

>>>> No longer able
>>>> to look himself in the mirror, Joe finally admits that
>>>> steel is
>>>> in fact, not real...."
>>>>
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/starling-cycles-confess-to-profiteering-from-steel-that-is-simply-not-real/
>>>>
>
>> Steel is real and that has proven itself over more
>> centuries than we care to think.
>
> *URGENT* Please donate any "unreal heavy" / "softened" steel
> frames to recycling, now! Due to Bidenato's sanctions "on
> Putin," some strategically unprepared producers of wooden
> pallets have reportedly run out of, formerly 90% Russian
> supplied, nail steel wire for assembly.
>
> https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet

We see recycled plastic pallets occasionally now. There's
not much other use for the material (parking lot stops,
landscaping beams)

https://www.icnplast.com/plastic-pallet/export-and-shipping-use-pallet/recycled-plastic-shipping-pallets.html

Which is good I suppose in that most (90%) 'recycled'
plastics just go to landfill.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/plastic-recycling-facts-and-figures-2877886

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/6/2022 10:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 4/6/2022 8:53 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
>>
>> https://uic.org/freight/article/eur-pallet
>
> We see recycled plastic pallets occasionally now. There's not much other
> use for the material (parking lot stops, landscaping beams)
>
> https://www.icnplast.com/plastic-pallet/export-and-shipping-use-pallet/recycled-plastic-shipping-pallets.html

Seems like a good move.

Related: Yesterday evening we had dinner with a friend, a retired school
teacher. She described taking her multi-month collection of used grocery
bags to a special collection, where they and millions of others will be
used to make park benches. Our friend's school installed such a park
bench to honor her when she retired.

But I wonder about the overall value of that recycling effort. It must
take 10,000 plastic bags to build a park bench. How much energy is
consumed in driving the bags around, then cleaning and processing the
plastic?

And I'm reminded of an apparently unbiased study of a few years ago that
found that a cloth grocery bag was more benign than a plastic bag only
if the cloth bag was re-used at least 1000 times.

> Which is good I suppose in that most (90%) 'recycled' plastics just go
> to landfill.
>
> https://www.thebalancesmb.com/plastic-recycling-facts-and-figures-2877886

Yes. It's been recently noted that the triangle "recycling number"
symbols on plastics are misleading. People think it means the plastics
are "recyclable" but almost none of that stuff gets recycled.

Local story: Our county has curbside recycling, pickup every two weeks.
Over the years, the rules on what is accepted have changed. For a while
(before China bailed out of the business) it was all plastics up to #5.

Well: At the county fair a few years ago, we walked by the recycling
team's booth. A cheery, outgoing woman hailed us and said "Would you
like to play a game? Just take a card [with a picture of a household
item] and put it into either this little recycling bin or this little
garbage can." It was a test to see if we knew what to recycle.

I drew a picture of a black plastic flower pot, the type greenhouses use
for flowers they're selling. I said "This is easy!" and tossed it in the
recycling bin. She said "Nope, those are trash. They don't recycle."

I said "But aren't those marked #5?"

"Oh, we don't take #5 any more. Now we only take #1 and #2. And it has
to be shaped like a bottle or jar - no other shapes."

I said "You've changed the rules? Why aren't you telling people about
that?"

She said "But I am! Right now!" Sure - she's telling one person at a time.

I understand all this is market driven. But I'll note that we are NOT
running out of landfill space.

(Hmm. Why have the hand wringers not attacked the problem of un-recycled
bike helmets?)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:56:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>"Oh, we don't take #5 any more. Now we only take #1 and #2. And it has
>to be shaped like a bottle or jar - no other shapes."

That's the same situation we have here in the People's Republic of
Santa Cruz, CA. The recyclers and collection stations will take #1
and #2, but no other plastics. I was told that #1 and #2 are the best
for burning (chemical recycling):
"Six Times More Plastic Waste is Burned in U.S. than is Recycled"
<https://www.plasticpollutioncoalition.org/blog/2019/4/29/six-times-more-plastic-waste-is-burned-in-us-than-is-recycled>
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 11:56:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

They apparently recycle some plastics here in Thailand. At least I see
people picking plastic drink bottles out of the trash apparently for
resale. And years ago I saw a large truck loaded "to the brim" with
the thicker colored plastic bottles used for engine oil and other
similar stuff. We were visiting one of my wife's younger brothers and
I mentioned it and he said that there was a recycling plant where we
had seen the truck turn off the highway.

I also see those large "industrial" size garbage bags, in the store,
marked "100% recycled".

P.S. I just googled "Thailand+Recycled+plastic" and got 9,010,000 hits
including a number of companies who's business is recycling.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

The European Union is falling apart because their "leaders" believe that the government should have full control over every facet of a person's lives. Great Britain is likely to have a sudden political awakening and through the socialist government into the dust bin of history. What started with socialized health care has become government regulated everything down to and including what a farmer can sell and where he can sell it.

[Tom Kunich]

Some recycling ideas are fine. Most are not. Wax coated paper milk containers for instance. Recycling consists mostly of feeding a boiler flame and generating electricity from that. There is NOT much energy recycled but I suppose that isn't the point. But the environmentalist simply cannot contain themselves from believing any lie that sounds good. That "Island of plastic floating in the Pacific" is one of those. Someone takes a boat out with the garbage dump of Thailand or such and photographs their dumping mostly plastic trash outside of the national waters of their country and then tells American children that America is doing that. The truth of the "plastic island" is that there is a 1 mm piece of plastic for every 10 cubic meters of water in the Pacific dead zone.

This has all been used by the socialists as an assault on American values. And what are the real values? We have a Democrap government that passes laws almost every day that enriches each of them. Pelosi has made her entire family stinking rich from that.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I deleted all the Tommy nonsense and blathering about recycling being bad.

>
> This has all been used by the socialists as an assault on American values. And what are the real values? We have a Democrap government that passes laws almost every day that enriches each of them. Pelosi has made her entire family stinking rich from that.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/31/fact-check-taxpayer-burden-trumps-golfing-hard-pin-down/3718413001/
"In 2017-18, Trump spent 69 days of his presidency in Mar-a-Lago, a Palm Beach, Florida, resort owned by the Trump Organization; 33 at his Bedminster, New Jersey, golf club; and 31 at Trump National in Sterling, Virginia, according to USA TODAY in June 2018.

By this May 25, the president had visited a Trump golf course 266 times, CNN reported. And Sept. 5 marked Trump's 295th visit to one of his golf properties, according to CNN's Jim Sciutto.

Sophie Germain has kept track of the president's golfing and its costs at the Trump Golf Count site since his 2017 inauguration. USA TODAY has reached out to her for comment.

An itemized breakdown of travel costs to various golf resorts totaled $141,450,266, according to Germain. Her tally of expenses includes the cost of flights to Mar-a-Lago and Bedminster; law enforcement personnel costs for trips to Bedminster and Palm Beach; Coast Guard protections for Trump's Mar-a-Lago getaways; government-funded resort stays and luxury vehicle rentals in Turnberry, Scotland, another Trump-owned property, in 2018; and lodgings at Trump's golf club in Doonbeg, Ireland, in 2019. The last golf trip recorded on the website happened on Oct. 16."