How does Tiso Bike stay in business ??
Donald Gillies
If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593, does that
mean you have the best derailleur in the world, or merely, the
stupidest customers on the planet ??
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
Dear Don,
Well, you could have other distributors selling your derailleur for
considerably less, say 239 EU (around $313):
And you could emphasize the claim that you're selling the lightest
derailleur on earth:
http://www.les3sports.com/html/index.php?page=21&categorie1=806&categorie2=943
And your customers could just be people who like to spend enormous
amounts of time and money building the lightest bikes possible, a
hobby that probably gives them just as much pleasure as restoring old
cars and polishing umpteen coats of paint on the underside of the
trunk lid.
Your customers would be arguably no more foolish than someone who just
issued his Christmas demand for Carmignola's new Vivaldi CD, just to
add several new concertos to a list of over 400.
But neither the company nor the customers are spending their time
calling other people stupid. That's a harmless pastime often seen on
newsgroups like RBT that seems to make some people happy.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Werehatrack
have said:
>http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>
>If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593, does that
>mean you have the best derailleur in the world, or merely, the
>stupidest customers on the planet ??
A merchant in the business of catering to this trade would *never*
refer to his clientele in such a coarse and undignified manner.
--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
Ben C
> On 18 Dec 2006 20:03:56 -0800, gil...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies)
> wrote:
>
>>http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>>
>>If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593, does that
>>mean you have the best derailleur in the world, or merely, the
>>stupidest customers on the planet ??
>>
>>- Don Gillies
>>San Diego, CA
>
> Dear Don,
>
> Well, you could have other distributors selling your derailleur for
> considerably less, say 239 EU (around $313):
>
> http://www4.hibike.de/main.php?sessionID=E3b9585cf39d2e9d15330f39a3222af0e&method=m_catpd&nodeID=&groupID=10
>
> And you could emphasize the claim that you're selling the lightest
> derailleur on earth:
>
> http://www.les3sports.com/html/index.php?page=21&categorie1=806&categorie2=943
A Campag Record rear derailleur is 157 GBP, or 233 Euros from
totalcycling.com and weighs about 5 or 6g more, so the Tiso seems to
competitively priced.
* * Chas
"Werehatrack" <rau...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote in message
news:dt5fo25g9v0rgdm7p...@4ax.com...
> On 18 Dec 2006 20:03:56 -0800, gil...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) may
> have said:
>
> >http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
> >
> >If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593, does that
> >mean you have the best derailleur in the world, or merely, the
> >stupidest customers on the planet ??
>
> A merchant in the business of catering to this trade would *never*
> refer to his clientele in such a coarse and undignified manner.
>
> --
It probably falls somewhere between:
"It is unwise to pay too much, but it is unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you loose a little money; that is all.
When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything.
Because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought
it to do.
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot. It cannot be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the
risk you run and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something
better."
John Rushkin 1819-1900
and....
"A fool and his money are soon parted." Thomas Tusser 1524-1580
I seem to remember someone in the US was making a derailleur that looked
something like an old Simplex Prestige and asking a small fortune for it.
Chas.
Callistus Valerius
> It probably falls somewhere between:
>
> "It is unwise to pay too much, but it is unwise to pay too little.
>
> When you pay too much, you loose a little money; that is all.
>
> When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything.
>
> Because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought
> it to do.
>
Wal-Mart has a last push Christmas sale right now, and they are selling
full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
idea?
John Forrest Tomlinson
>http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>
>If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593,
That's the price for a set of two derailleurs - arričre et avant.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Neither and/or both. I am asked lots if something or another is 'worth
it'. I don't know what is 'worth' what to another. What mystyies me is
something that is bought and turns out to not work well or as
advertised, but is bought all the time anyway...marketing and peer
pressure are powerful.
For the RD, if it works well and is light, not surprised somebody buys
it. people buy titanium chains all the time too, and kry-4-me-seriums...
Ozark Bicycle
Donald Gillies wrote:
> http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>
> If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593, does that
> mean you have the best derailleur in the world, or merely, the
> stupidest customers on the planet ??
>
In a market that seems to support $350+ saddles, $60 bar tape, etc.,
this just seems par for the very wacky course.
David L. Johnson
> On 18 Dec 2006 20:03:56 -0800, gil...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies)
> wrote:
>
>>http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>>
>>If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593,
>
> That's the price for a set of two derailleurs - arrière et avant.
So, that makes $600 seem like a bargain?
--
David L. Johnson
__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |
* * Chas
"Callistus Valerius" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t6Phh.865$yx6...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I think the it falls more into the second category.....
When the CPSC Act (US Consumer Protection Safety Commission) first took
effect in the mid 1970s there were a lot of unsafe at any speed, made in
Taiwan bikes being sold dirt cheap by department stores and discount
outlets. These bikes were so poorly built that the brakes needed to be
replaced out of the box and even qualified bike mechanics had problems
assembling them so that they would be minimally safe to ride.
They didn't meet CPSC standards to say the least so the importers and
distributors started selling them for $10 to $25 USD to places like car
dealerships, stereo component outlets and so on to be given away as sales
incentives. Buy a new car, get a free 10 speed....
Ironically, fully Campy bikes didn't meet the CPSC restrictions either and
for a few months we didn't know if we could legally sell them! Both ends
of Campy QRs, the flip lever on the brake QRs, both ends of the brake
pivot bolts, the cable locking bolts on the derailleurs all failed the
roller test. You had to be able to pass a certain diameter roller over all
parts of a bike and not have it catch on anything. That's why Campy change
the design of their NR/SR components! DOH!
There were no measurements for safe construction or performance! I saw a
number of these bikes where the welds were so poor that the whole head
tube broke away from the frame during normal riding.
Chas.
Rex Kerr
> full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
> idea?
I couldn't find the one for $39, but I did find one for $54:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2061608
It can't be that bad, it has a high-tensity frame with a lifetime
warranty!
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Rex,
The men's Fury RoadMaster is the same price, and it's in stock.
I rode one for 1200 miles a while ago to test predictions that it
would burst into flames and kill me before I reached the street
corner.
The only problem was a flat rear tire.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Matt O'Toole
> Wal-Mart has a last push Christmas sale right now, and they are selling
> full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
> idea?
It might wear out quick, but so do 10sp chains, and they cost more than
that.
Matt O.
* * Chas
"Rex Kerr" <rex...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166551661.5...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com...
Whose life?
Chas.
Lou Holtman
Ozark Bicycle
"Lifetime warranty"? Unless it cracks....that's "normal wear and tear".
(I wonder how long it will take the Chinese to catch on to the legal
dodges that have served Cannondale, etc., well for so long.)
Rex Kerr
>
> The men's Fury RoadMaster is the same price, and it's in stock.
>
> I rode one for 1200 miles a while ago to test predictions that it
> would burst into flames and kill me before I reached the street
> corner.
>
> The only problem was a flat rear tire.
Except for the fact that in the past when I couldn't (or wouldn't)
afford a good bike I also rode such bikes. I rode them many, many,
hundreds of miles over their lifetimes, even as many as 75 miles in a
single ride on a knobby tire Roadmaster 'mountain bike' that I bought
at Wal-Mart. Yet:
The plastic brake levers would bend when braking hard, rather than
applying more brake force
The poor brake pads and steel wheels didn't work well together
The bike weighed a TON
The shifters never worked right
I couldn't find replacement parts for it
For the same cash outlay I probably could have found a nice higher
quality bike, if I'd known what I was looking for. I wish that
somebody with knowledge would have helped me back then rather than just
telling me that my bike was crap, or trying to tell me that I couldn't
use automotive grease in the wheel bearings (yes, I did my own
overhauls), but rather had to use super expensive bike specific grease.
As much as I wanted to, I never really fell in love with cycling until
I got my first real bike (a cheap LBS hybrid bike), and then it became
an addiction.
If you look far enough back in the usenet archvies (about 14 years ago)
you'll find me asking questions on this very group about those old
Wal-Mart bikes.
Rex Kerr
> you'll find me asking questions on this very group about those old
> Wal-Mart bikes.
I found the post... I was close, it was 13 years, 7 months ago. :-) --
oh, and that bike came from KMart. I'm sure that there are older
posts, but Google doesn't seem to have them anymore.
Diablo Scott
> http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>
> If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593, does that
> mean you have the best derailleur in the world, or merely, the
> stupidest customers on the planet ??
>
I just clicked on "add to basket" and had a miniature orgasm.
John Forrest Tomlinson
<david....@lehigh.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 07:14:00 -0500, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> On 18 Dec 2006 20:03:56 -0800, gil...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/PRODUIT.php?key=4467
>>>
>>>If you're a company that sells a derailleur that costs $593,
>>
>> That's the price for a set of two derailleurs - arrière et avant.
>
>So, that makes $600 seem like a bargain?
No.
Donald Gillies
Let's see ... 1 front/rear derailleur, or 13 mountain bikes. Let me
think about that one ...
- Don Gillies
P.S. I don't usually like to criticize the purchasing decisions of
others, but I _will_ criticize flagrant and ostentatious displays of
wealth, no matter how "un-politically-correct" you may call me ...
Werehatrack
Having had one of those a while back. I can state this about it:
-- The seat was the absolute worst I have ever encountered, bar
none.
-- The brakes were not helped by the presence of a painted steel
rim; they were mushy and not very predictable other than "better start
slowing down early".
-- The frame was sized for someone 5'6" max; "full size" only for
relatively short people.
-- The tires were of the "buzz bomb" variety; ride it on the street
(which is where the vast majority of these end up) and you're going to
very quickly discover the effects of vibration-induced numbness.
-- The shifting was surprisingly good once I got it adjusted...if
you can stand those twist-grips, which I can't.
-- If you're at all concerned by fine detail, do not closely examine
things like the parallelism of the dropouts. (They weren't.)
-- If you're expecting the wheels to remain true through one good
jump off a 14" curb with a 200lb rider, lower your expectations.
-- With a 175lb rider, the front suspension fork mostly isn't. Just
about any bump will bottom it. There is no damping.
-- Did I mention the truly abysmal seat? Yes? Okay, well it merits
at least two rants. It was *that* awful. We're talking major metal
buttwedge here. I think there are probably seat *posts* that would be
less objectionable to sit on.
-- The rumor of the ders and brakes and stem (and such) being
correctly installed and adjusted cannot be substantiated on the basis
of the test sample. The stem was not tight enough to keep it aligned
with the steerer when the bike was picked up to put it in the back of
the car, the brakes began to engage at a lever position that was about
15mm from the bars, the rear der adjustment got the upper 5 gears only
(with significant chain chatter), the front der adjustment would only
push the chain on to the big ring if you reached down and yanked on
the cable, and one pedal was just finger-tight.
I was *almost* glad that it ended up getting stolen.
Werehatrack
have said:
I think I agree. Conspicuous consumption is, IMO, a despicable habit
that merely proves that the person displaying it merits no beneficial
considerations whatever.
I will also encourage them as much as possible when I have one engaged
in buying things from me. It is not my job to polish their image by
faulting their ways when the only person to whom the damage is done is
the one doing it.
Dan
carl...@comcast.net wrote:
> The only problem was a flat rear tire.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3636434
Nuf said
* * Chas
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
news:1166561809.7...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
With 4,000 years of tradition of being shrewd, frugal traders, I don't
think that you have to worry too much about them catching on.
The 30-30 guarantee - 30 feet or 30 seconds.....
Chas.
* * Chas
"Donald Gillies" <gil...@cs.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:em9tef$see$1...@cascade.cs.ubc.ca...
Like gold plated Colnagos and Campy components....
Chas.
* * Chas
"Werehatrack" <rau...@earthWEEDSlink.net> wrote in message
WARNING! FOR MATURE AUDIENCES ONLY!
http://www.merrysaddles.com/bicycles.html
I warned you!
Chas.
Jim Higson
> A Campag Record rear derailleur is 157 GBP, or 233 Euros from
> totalcycling.com and weighs about 5 or 6g more
5 or 6g? Oh no!
But... don't throw away that heavy piece junk yet - all is not lost:
Werehatrack
said:
The frame isn't what makes it crap. It's the totality of the
turdliness of the unit. I suspect that the number of frames that will
be replaced using a spare part supplied by the factory is zero; the
shipping for the replacement part is more costly than the price of a
complete unit off the shelf. And, frankly, the number of buyers who
will keep their receipt is small, and the number of frame failures
within that group will be so tiny as to be ignorable...unless, as the
CPSC sometimes documents, the frame design was one which was bad
enough that failures were going to be common. So far, the only
non-abuse-related department store bike frame failures I've run across
have been in the idiotic Y-frame designs, where I've found cracks in
two different locations on four frames.
Rex Kerr
Werehatrack wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2006 10:07:41 -0800, "Rex Kerr" <rex...@gmail.com> may have
> said:
> >It can't be that bad, it has a high-tensity frame with a lifetime
> >warranty!
>
> The frame isn't what makes it crap. It's the totality of the
> turdliness of the unit.
Hrm... I guess the tone of sarcasm was lost in my original post.
I especially found the term "high-tensity" to be humorous.
John Dacey
>Your customers would be arguably no more foolish than someone who just
>issued his Christmas demand for Carmignola's new Vivaldi CD, just to
>add several new concertos to a list of over 400.
Perhaps you'd also be interested in a world premier recording of some
newly discovered Vivaldi concerti. Well, not 'new' exactly -- it's the
same eight minutes of music it's always been, but with a couple of the
few remaining unused opus numbers assigned. The newness comes from the
stringed percussion instruments with which they're played and for the
premier, the power quintet "I Ciclisti" was assembled:
Speichenspiel - J. Brandt
Carillon Circulaire - S. Brown
Marimba della Ruota - A. Muzi
Cembalo Campagnese - Q. C. Parla
Double-butted Dulcimer - C. Fogel
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------
Lou Holtman
>
> P.S. I don't usually like to criticize the purchasing decisions of
> others, but I _will_ criticize flagrant and ostentatious displays of
> wealth, no matter how "un-politically-correct" you may call me ...
>
If you hadn't pointed out the cost of that Tiso derailleur nobody would
even know that it is so expensive. From a distance (more then 2 meters)
it looks like a Deore RD.
Ozark Bicycle
Lou Holtman wrote:
> Donald Gillies wrote:
>
> >
> > P.S. I don't usually like to criticize the purchasing decisions of
> > others, but I _will_ criticize flagrant and ostentatious displays of
> > wealth, no matter how "un-politically-correct" you may call me ...
> >
>
>
> If you hadn't pointed out the cost of that Tiso derailleur nobody would
> even know that it is so expensive.
Shall we call it "inconspicuous consumption"?
* * Chas
English subtitles from films made in Hong Kong:
"Gun wounds again?"
"Who gave you the nerve to get killed here?"
"You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice chicken."
"Beat him out of recognizable shape!"
and finally....
"Greetings, large person. Let us not forget to form a team up together and
go into the country to inflict the pain of our karate feets on some ass of
the giant lizard person."
Chas. Don't mess with me, I got a black belt in haiku
* * Chas
"Lou Holtman" <lholrem...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:4589916d$1...@news.nb.nu...
I have a Deore LX on a Colnago - looks about the same, all black.
Chas.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear John,
For those puzzled by such obscure (okay, imaginary) instruments,
Vivaldi and other baroque composers often wrote parts specifically for
weird musical contraptions that soon became museum pieces.
The viola d'amor, for example, is just an overgrown violin with a
whole bunch of sympathetic strings that vibrate under the strings that
are actually played. Vivaldi wrote five concertos to emphasize the
subtle qualities of the instrument. (The concertos are frankly
undistinguished).
More interesting are parts that Vivaldi wrote for two violins "en
tromba marina." No one knows what the hell this means, but the real
tromba marina was not a trombone and had nothing to do with the sea.
It was a large, bowed monostring instrument.
Peek at the bottom of this page for an animation of the weird bridge
of this long-forgotten one-stringed monster:
http://www.oriscus.com/mi/tm/index.htm
Anything was grist to Vivaldi's musical mill, so he even wrote a few
daring concertos that used the new-fangled woodwind called the
"clarinet," despite the scathing contempt of the oboe players.
Vivaldi did not, however, stoop to writing sonatas for the French
bagpipe, or musetta. Those were actually written by a venal Frenchman
to cash in on Vivaldi's popularity and published dishonestly as
Vivaldi's Opus XIII, "Il Pastor Fido."
Some confusion is understandable with hand-written manuscripts from
private libraries (RV431 is a nice flute concerto, but Vivaldi
probably didn't write it). But there's no excuse for the blatant
forgery of a whole opus.
Incidentally, the 4th edition of "The Bicycle Wheel" by "Jobst Brandt"
will soon be available from the Government Printing Office in Pueblo,
Colorado, 81008. All diagrams have been re-drawn to show the wheels of
a Fury Roadmaster, everything about stress-relief has been completely
re-written, and a 23-page appendix has been added to address
goatheads. Price $119.95. Order now for delivery by Christmas.
Cheers,
N. de Chédeville
Ozark Bicycle
I still remember this, from the owner's manual of my '68 Datsun 2000:
"Now remove the lugnuts, carefully damaging the wheel".
I've also seen some gems in manuals from older Japanese hi-fi gear.
Lou Holtman
You filthy capitalist.... ;-)
Lou Holtman
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>>Donald Gillies wrote:
>>
>>
>>>P.S. I don't usually like to criticize the purchasing decisions of
>>>others, but I _will_ criticize flagrant and ostentatious displays of
>>>wealth, no matter how "un-politically-correct" you may call me ...
>>>
>>
>>
>>If you hadn't pointed out the cost of that Tiso derailleur nobody would
>>even know that it is so expensive.
>
>
> Shall we call it "inconspicuous consumption"?
My riding buddy's always ask me why I have such cheap waterbottle cages
on my Litespeed. They look at them and read the very small inprint:
'King Cage??, never heard of them'.... and I just keep my mouth shut..;-)
Lou, guilty as charged
* * Chas
Some things I prefer not to remember like the manual for my 1967 Honda
motorcycle. I was trying to figure out how to set the dual points. There
were 3 pages in Jinglish on how a sparkplug works and one incomprehensible
sentence on the points.
The problem with the Japanese was that they knew their writing was
terrible but they were proud of what they wrote and got upset with any
suggestions about corrections.
Chas.
* * Chas
Even Lenin lived in the lap of luxury when he moved to Moscow! We all have
our crosses to bear.
Chas.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear M. de Chédeville,
Your memory has played you false--you were thinking of RV430, not
RV431.
The only available recording of RV430 is on Rampal's flute recording of
the Four Seasons with the Liszt Chamber Orchestra.
Rampal's flute version illustrates the differences between instruments
that Vivaldi routinely observed when writing concertos.
The Four Seasons were written for the tireless bow of the violin, which
never stops to draw breath. A flute player trying to play music written
for the violin will turn blue unless he cuts notes short to suck in
another lungful of air, plays the notes faster, or plays the notes more
softly.
So it's no surprise that Rampal's flute recording of the Four Seasons
is the fastest, shortest recording of these violin concertos.
Here's a picture from the CD that shows Rampal's grim dignity--nay,
stuffiness--as he reverently prepares to perform Vivaldi's violin
masterpieces on the flute:
http://i11.tinypic.com/470j6fl.jpg
Click on the lower right in Explorer for full size.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
John Dacey
>On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:03:59 -0500, John Dacey
><jda...@businesscycles.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:08:05 -0700, carl...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>>Your customers would be arguably no more foolish than someone who just
>>>issued his Christmas demand for Carmignola's new Vivaldi CD, just to
>>>add several new concertos to a list of over 400.
>>
>>Perhaps you'd also be interested in a world premier recording of some
>>newly discovered Vivaldi concerti. Well, not 'new' exactly -- it's the
>>same eight minutes of music it's always been, but with a couple of the
>>few remaining unused opus numbers assigned. The newness comes from the
>>stringed percussion instruments with which they're played and for the
>>premier, the power quintet "I Ciclisti" was assembled:
>> Speichenspiel - J. Brandt
>> Carillon Circulaire - S. Brown
>> Marimba della Ruota - A. Muzi
>> Cembalo Campagnese - Q. C. Parla
>> Double-butted Dulcimer - C. Fogel
>>
>Dear John,
>
>For those puzzled by such obscure (okay, imaginary) instruments,
>Vivaldi and other baroque composers often wrote parts specifically for
>weird musical contraptions that soon became museum pieces.
Imaginary? These instruments all share a similar design in that their
strings may be plucked or squeezed, but vary somewhat in their
complement of strings. I understand that Messrs Brandt and Parla will
only play the 36-stringed Concert Grand versions of their respective
instruments, whereas Messrs Muzi and Brown are less captive to
tradition and open to trying alternate tuning options for artistic
expression. Mr Fogel plays a smaller device, since portability is a
feature prized by wandering minstrels and marching bands.
See http://tinyurl.com/y96b8y for a photo.
>Incidentally, the 4th edition of "The Bicycle Wheel" by "Jobst Brandt"
>will soon be available from the Government Printing Office in Pueblo,
>Colorado, 81008. All diagrams have been re-drawn to show the wheels of
>a Fury Roadmaster, everything about stress-relief has been completely
>re-written, and a 23-page appendix has been added to address
>goatheads. Price $119.95. Order now for delivery by Christmas.
Nah, I'll just wait for someone to post an "excerpt" here on rbt
that'll probably quote everything in the book verbatim except for the
dedication page.
Im another post, you also wrote:
>So it's no surprise that Rampal's flute recording of the Four Seasons
>is the fastest, shortest recording of these violin concertos.
No surprise whatsoever. When it comes to Vivaldi, the fastest,
shortest version is the one to have.
BobT
boof...@gmail.com
Rex Kerr wrote:
> > Wal-Mart has a last push Christmas sale right now, and they are selling
> > full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
> > idea?
>
> I couldn't find the one for $39, but I did find one for $54:
>
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2061608
>
> warranty!
Oh yeah, and it's a handcrafted high-tensity frame.
How can you go wrong?
Marian
* * Chas wrote:
>
> English subtitles from films made in Hong Kong:
>
> "Gun wounds again?"
>
> "Who gave you the nerve to get killed here?"
>
> "You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice chicken."
>
> "Beat him out of recognizable shape!"
>
> and finally....
>
> "Greetings, large person. Let us not forget to form a team up together and
> go into the country to inflict the pain of our karate feets on some ass of
> the giant lizard person."
And the best thing is with some of the really absurd statements is
that, once you get to the point of being able to read Chinese, THEY
DON'T GET ANY CLEARER!
Mark Hickey
I always figured the Chinese would have already ruled the entire world
if they just had an alphabet.
My Chinese friends used to tell me what a subtle language written
Chinese is. But after reading commentaries on Chinese literature, in
which a given short passage can mean any one of a dozen (very
different) things, I concluded that they just like being vague. ;-)
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
Chalo
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> I still remember this, from the owner's manual of my '68 Datsun 2000:
> "Now remove the lugnuts, carefully damaging the wheel".
My brother got some kind of elaborate video game controller that
required assembly instructions. Among those beautifully written
instructions was this warning:
"Being not to insert properly causes broken."
Chalo
Werehatrack
<robertle...@MoveThisCox.net> may have said:
>All your base are belong to us!
And the canonical example:
http://www.snopes.com/humor/misxlate/tounge.htm
Ryan Cousineau
"Chalo" <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
My 1986 Suzuki GS750SE Katana factory service manual had an admonition
about making sure the oil plug was tight "to ensure oil leakage."
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
* * Chas
"Marian" <marian.r...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166676128.3...@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
When I was studying Japanese, I thought that learning a little Chinese to
understand the word roots might help just as learning Latin can help with
English and the Romance languages.
My first lesson was enough. Four ways of saying the exact same thing meant
four totally different things. Chinese has over 4000 different written
ideogram characters while modern Japanese Kanji has been simplified to
1950. The Japanese also have 2 other types of writing, Katakana and
Hiragana which have less than 80 characters each and are more or less
phonetic and used as shortcuts or for foreign words.
Chas.
* * Chas
"Mark Hickey" <ma...@habcycles.com> wrote in message
news:0b6ko2dbdkhr194h7...@4ax.com...
Mark, please see my response to Marian above.
Here's a quote for an English - Chinese dictionary from the Languages of
Chinese web site:
"A Chinese-English translation dictionary with more than 180,000 compound
words. Chinese characters are given along with their romanisation and
translation. Searchable using Chinese, Mandarin pinyin, and English."
The average English speaker has a working vocabulary of about 1000 words.
Verbose intellectual like Winston Churchill and former President FDR had
vocabularies of around 10000 words.
And people say English is hard to learn!
Chas.
Ben C
[snip]
> My first lesson was enough. Four ways of saying the exact same thing meant
> four totally different things. Chinese has over 4000 different written
> ideogram characters while modern Japanese Kanji has been simplified to
> 1950.
There are around 6000 Kanji (6356 in the JIS character set), but if you
knew the 1950 most common ones you'd do pretty well at reading Japanese.
You're right that you'd need to know something like twice as many for an
equivalent ability in Chinese.
* * Chas
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:rcousine-ADEDDF...@news.telus.net...
> In article <1166691375.2...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Chalo" <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > >
> > > I still remember this, from the owner's manual of my '68 Datsun
2000:
> > > "Now remove the lugnuts, carefully damaging the wheel".
> >
> > My brother got some kind of elaborate video game controller that
> > required assembly instructions. Among those beautifully written
> > instructions was this warning:
> >
> > "Being not to insert properly causes broken."
> >
> > Chalo
>
> My 1986 Suzuki GS750SE Katana factory service manual had an admonition
> about making sure the oil plug was tight "to ensure oil leakage."
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
Sounds like a Brit bike! ;-)
If you kept a pan under the engine while the bike was parked, you could
pour the oil back in to the motor!
Chas.
Marian
Have you looked at the OED recently? Any language is big in dictionary
form.
> The average English speaker has a working vocabulary of about 1000 words.
> Verbose intellectual like Winston Churchill and former President FDR had
> vocabularies of around 10000 words.
I'd say more like 5000 and 20,000.
My Chinese characters (which in a sense can be taken to mean word
families) stand at well over 2000 at this point and I'm still
struggling with Harry Potter.
> And people say English is hard to learn!
It is.
-M
Marian
When Ah Zhi was complaining about the number of English words that are
incomprehensibly the same or which have extremely subtle pronunciation
differences that he can't wrap his tongue around (such as the
difference between "frame" and "flame") I told him my banana story.
I meant to say I wanted (to buy) bananas.
I said I wanted sex.
wo yao xiangjiao
wo yao xingjiao
Chinese is utterly impossible, and I would never have chosen it as a
language to learn or a country to live in if I thought I were going to
a) spend this long here b) actually go for that whole fluency thing to
the point of c) getting good at it.
-M
Ozark Bicycle
Did you ever own a Lotus, by any chance? ;-)
>
> Chas.
Michael Press
<LZadnYoYyPW-URfY...@comcast.com>,
"* * Chas" <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
Really? What people? As with any language, read lots,
write lots, and in 20 years you will be doing fine.
Not having tried any other languages I get the
impression that English is relatively easy. A native
German speaker told me that the greatest puzzle is
prepositions. I agree. Get the prepositions lined up
and the battle is won.
--
Michael Press
Mark Hickey
>My Chinese characters (which in a sense can be taken to mean word
>families) stand at well over 2000 at this point and I'm still
>struggling with Harry Potter.
Errrr, Marian, that's 'cuz he's speaking ENGLISH. ;-)
Strangely enough, I sometimes had a situation where I'd be speaking
(passably good) Mandarin to a Chinese native I didn't know, and they'd
give me a "deer in the headlights look", and then the light would come
on, and they'd realize that I was speaking Chinese (they assumed that
I'd be speaking some language they didn't know). Mind you, this isn't
something that would go on for minutes, just a few seconds (my
Mandarin wasn't that bad). ;-)
Ryan Cousineau
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycle...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> > news:rcousine-ADEDDF...@news.telus.net...
> > > In article <1166691375.2...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "Chalo" <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I still remember this, from the owner's manual of my '68 Datsun
> > 2000:
> > > > > "Now remove the lugnuts, carefully damaging the wheel".
> > > >
> > > > My brother got some kind of elaborate video game controller that
> > > > required assembly instructions. Among those beautifully written
> > > > instructions was this warning:
> > > >
> > > > "Being not to insert properly causes broken."
> > > >
> > > > Chalo
> > >
> > > My 1986 Suzuki GS750SE Katana factory service manual had an admonition
> > > about making sure the oil plug was tight "to ensure oil leakage."
> > Sounds like a Brit bike! ;-)
No, the only place oil leakage was ensured was in the shop manual.
> > If you kept a pan under the engine while the bike was parked, you could
> > pour the oil back in to the motor!
>
> Did you ever own a Lotus, by any chance? ;-)
I'm not quite that crazy. I notice recent Loti use Toyota and Honda
motors. Good idea.
The owner's manual for my father's 1956 AJS is far more entertaining.
Aside from explaining routine maintenance, it suggests that certain
procedures are best undertaken by bringing the part in question back to
the factory. The manual then goes on to detail which bus routes you
should take to get to the factory.
Trading badly-written manuals for well-designed bikes always seemed like
a pretty good deal,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
Mark Hickey
>I meant to say I wanted (to buy) bananas.
>I said I wanted sex.
... and then you bought bananas? I can only imagine what they think
of western girls now....
>wo yao xiangjiao
>wo yao xingjiao
Heh. Worse yet, add in one of the four tones for each syllable and
the opportunity to mess up goes up exponentially. Or seven tones for
other dialects, which is even worse.
>Chinese is utterly impossible, and I would never have chosen it as a
>language to learn or a country to live in if I thought I were going to
>a) spend this long here b) actually go for that whole fluency thing to
>the point of c) getting good at it.
I considered trying to learn to read or write Chinese for about ten
seconds. That's how long it took me to do the math to determine that
I wouldn't live long enough to get good at it.
* * Chas
>
> * * Chas wrote:
<snip>
> > Here's a quote for an English - Chinese dictionary from the Languages
of
> > Chinese web site:
> >
> > "A Chinese-English translation dictionary with more than 180,000
compound
> > words. Chinese characters are given along with their romanisation and
> > translation. Searchable using Chinese, Mandarin pinyin, and English."
>
> Have you looked at the OED recently? Any language is big in dictionary
> form.
>
> > The average English speaker has a working vocabulary of about 1000
words.
> > Verbose intellectual like Winston Churchill and former President FDR
had
> > vocabularies of around 10000 words.
>
> I'd say more like 5000 and 20,000.
My numbers came out of Speech Communications courses years ago. I always
thought that 1000 number was a little low but then....
I went into a local Radio Shack and asked for a digital thermometer that I
had purchased there before. The clerk didn't know what a thermometer was!
>
> My Chinese characters (which in a sense can be taken to mean word
> families) stand at well over 2000 at this point and I'm still
> struggling with Harry Potter.
>
I had about a 1500 word working vocabulary in Japanese but I cheated a
lot. I memorized several hundred phrases and I would just punch different
words into them. I concentrated on my pronounciation and diction which
frequently got me into trouble because many people thought that I knew
more Japanese than I did. I never did get very far reading Kanji.
Chas.
* * Chas
No but I used to work on an old Europa. The owner threw away the crappy
Renault engine and replaced it with a very hot 1600cc Alpha engine.
The British automotive pastime used to be tinkering in the gay-rage on
Saturday so that one could go motoring on Sunday.
Wait, we've been here before, this is turning into dejavu....
Next comes Joseph Lucas - the prince of darkness!
My riding partner has an MGB. I keep asking him to show me his cilice and
flagellation whips! ;-)
Jaguar - a sculpture that leaks oil....
Chas.
* * Chas
"Ben C" <spam...@spam.eggs> wrote in message
news:slrneoll15....@bowser.marioworld...
> On 2006-12-21, * * Chas <verkt...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> > My first lesson was enough. Four ways of saying the exact same thing
meant
> > four totally different things. Chinese has over 4000 different written
> > ideogram characters while modern Japanese Kanji has been simplified to
> > 1950.
>
> There are around 6000 Kanji (6356 in the JIS character set), but if you
> knew the 1950 most common ones you'd do pretty well at reading Japanese.
>
strokes in Kanji...
I was always told that there were over 4000 characters but around the turn
of the last century, the newspapers forced the standardization to 1950
characters.
BA-SU-BA-RU..... BI-SE-KU..... BE-RU.... ;-)
Getting back to RBT, I had a Bridgestone light weight 10 speed bike with
European components when I was in Japan in the early '60s. I remember it
had a "suicide" front derailleur and Weinman center pull brakes. I have to
dig out my old pictures to check out the other components. Rode all over
Yamaguchi Prefecture on it.
It went great with BE-RU on a hot summer ride. ;-)
Chas.
Marian
Mark Hickey wrote:
> "Marian" <marian.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >My Chinese characters (which in a sense can be taken to mean word
> >families) stand at well over 2000 at this point and I'm still
> >struggling with Harry Potter.
>
> Errrr, Marian, that's 'cuz he's speaking ENGLISH. ;-)
I'm reading it in Chinese. Figure if I get to the point where I can
read what your average 14 year old is reading without resorting to my
dictionary I'll be set.
> Strangely enough, I sometimes had a situation where I'd be speaking
> (passably good) Mandarin to a Chinese native I didn't know, and they'd
> give me a "deer in the headlights look", and then the light would come
> on, and they'd realize that I was speaking Chinese (they assumed that
> I'd be speaking some language they didn't know). Mind you, this isn't
> something that would go on for minutes, just a few seconds (my
> Mandarin wasn't that bad). ;-)
To yank this conversation back towards biking...
I was on the road from Chengmai to Wenchang about 6 weeks ago. One of
my occasional brilliant ideas to take roads I've previously never been
on through parts of the island where I may have problems finding
Mandarin speakers.
I knew where I was. The road sign was very clear about where I was. I
simply had no good idea how I had gotten to where I was and no clue
whatsoever how to get to where I was going. There was a distinct
presence of major road on the map that I had not crossed, in addition
to the road I had been using not being on the map at all.
I asked a moto for directions and he responded in Chinese that he
didn't speak English.
I looked confused at him, and responded "So what? I also don't speak
English. I'm from Xinjiang" then asked directions again.
He got all flustered and told me that he was very sorry for thinking I
was a foreigner.
After I got directions but before leaving I sniped at him that I did
not appreciate being mistaken for a foreigner and was just as Chinese
as him, and that furthermore my Mandarin was more standard than his
with that atrocious Hainanese accent.
I succeeded in riding off in a huff and making it to the next turn
before I started giggling.
-M
* * Chas
When I was in Japan, one of my friends was a Native American from Arizona
who looked very Japanese another was Nisei Japanese from Chicago. When
people started talking to them in Japanese, they would both shrug and
point to me! Lots of confused looks when I answered them back in Japanese.
Chas.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
Being able to read menus and travel signs can make like a lot more
pleasant.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
Jim Higson
On a CPU cooler box:
"Keep your brains cool!"
Ozark Bicycle
A good friend had a 74ish Europa, with the Ford based Lotus engine,
Renault transaxle and Lotus halfshafts. It handled wonderfully, but was
the biggest automotive POS I've ever seen. Another friend had late
sixties Elan, he managed to survive when the suspension came undone in
an Ess curve on Storrow Drive in Boston. Yet another friend had a '77
Esprit (in reality, a re-bodied, warmed over Europa); it was merely
unreliable.
How did the guy mate the Alfa engine to the Renault transaxle???
Mark Hickey
>Mark Hickey <ma...@habcycles.com>wrote:
>>I considered trying to learn to read or write Chinese for about ten
>>seconds. That's how long it took me to do the math to determine that
>>I wouldn't live long enough to get good at it.
>
>Being able to read menus and travel signs can make like a lot more
>pleasant.
I did learn some words - like "men's room" (a fairly important one).
Others included "exit" and "Beijing (comes in handy when you're riding
around lost in the maze of rural roads just outside the city). I also
learned how to recognize certain food items, like chicken. That can
be important when you're ordering off a Chinese menu (prevents
accidentally getting some of the more "interesting items".
* * Chas
To be honest, I never, ever wanted to know much about the beast. I never
wanted to work on Brit (or French) cars so I just told people "I don't
know anything about them". All I did was continually reweld his tuned
exhaust headers which kept cracking from vibrations. He had been running
the engine in a Formula B that he raced prior to putting it into the
Europa.
Back in the long haired hippie car mechanic days I worked on German cars
for a few years and briefly shared a garage with 2 other guys; one worked
on Land Rovers the other was the regional importer for Elva kit bodies.
That's how I know so little tech knowledge about Brit machines and so much
lore!
Chas.
* * Chas
My friends and I joke about the items in the back of the menus in some
Chinese restaurant that are in Chinese only.... They fall into the
category of: "You no like" and "don't ask" ;-)
Once we were having Dim Sum at a very traditional Chinese restaurant in
SF. There was an interesting portion of something that the server kept
pushing away from us. Finally my friend forced the issue and we were
served.... chicken feet in soy sauce. Not wanting to look too foolish we
tried them and they weren't too bad.
Chas.
Michael Press
<1166777797.1...@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Marian" <marian.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
Merry Christmas!
--
Michael Press
Qui si parla Campagnolo
When I lived in japan it was plastic food(point at what you want) and
remembering things in common terms, "train station was 3 boxes or horse
with 1 leg, type thing. Driving, it was all, 'turn left at brown
awning' or turn right at the three babies sign..worked great until they
changed something!!
But even in obscure places that didn't see a lot of round eyes, like
Sasebo, there was always somebody that spoke the most common language
there is....
Marian
I respectfully disagree. One of the most disgusting things imaginable
in Chinese cuisine has to be Wenchang Chicken and it prominently
features the character "chicken."
-M
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Matt O'Toole wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:25:29 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:
>
> > Wal-Mart has a last push Christmas sale right now, and they are selling
> > full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
> > idea?
>
> It might wear out quick, but so do 10sp chains, and they cost more than
> that.
>
> Matt O.
Where does this notion come from? I find that 10s chains wear like 9s
ones, like 8s ones..not better but no worse either.
Lou Holtman
Mark Hickey
>Mark Hickey wrote:
>> I did learn some words - like "men's room" (a fairly important one).
>> Others included "exit" and "Beijing (comes in handy when you're riding
>> around lost in the maze of rural roads just outside the city). I also
>> learned how to recognize certain food items, like chicken. That can
>> be important when you're ordering off a Chinese menu (prevents
>> accidentally getting some of the more "interesting items".
>
>I respectfully disagree. One of the most disgusting things imaginable
>in Chinese cuisine has to be Wenchang Chicken and it prominently
>features the character "chicken."
Must be a southern Chinese dish - don't recall ever coming across it.
Some of the "interesting things" I did ingest...
Snake heart soup
Fried scorpions
Elephant nose
Camel's feet (kill anyone who tries to serve you this)
Camel's hump
Duck tongue (in mustard sauce)
Pig intestine
Chicken feet
Some were surprisingly good (the fried scorpions were a lot like a
potato chip with legs). Others were as good as they sound. :-P
Mark Hickey
>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:25:29 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>
>> > Wal-Mart has a last push Christmas sale right now, and they are selling
>> > full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
>> > idea?
>>
>> It might wear out quick, but so do 10sp chains, and they cost more than
>> that.
>
>Where does this notion come from? I find that 10s chains wear like 9s
>ones, like 8s ones..not better but no worse either.
There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
individual cogs get thinner).
And if we can determine that a worn cog puts more stress on the chain
(by increasing the load on the first link or two at the top of the
cassette) it only makes sense that the chain would wear out a little
more quickly.
Whether that would constitute a difference that you'd ever notice is
another question, of course.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
>"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:25:29 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:
>>>
>>> > Wal-Mart has a last push Christmas sale right now, and they are selling
>>> > full sized Mountain Bikes for $39. Does this fall into your too little
>>> > idea?
>>>
>>> It might wear out quick, but so do 10sp chains, and they cost more than
>>> that.
>>
>>Where does this notion come from? I find that 10s chains wear like 9s
>>ones, like 8s ones..not better but no worse either.
>
>There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
>someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
>cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
>9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
>individual cogs get thinner).
Are cogs on 10-speed cassettes thinner?
Marian
Lou Holtman wrote:
> Donald Gillies wrote:
>
> >
> > P.S. I don't usually like to criticize the purchasing decisions of
> > others, but I _will_ criticize flagrant and ostentatious displays of
> > wealth, no matter how "un-politically-correct" you may call me ...
>
> If you hadn't pointed out the cost of that Tiso derailleur nobody would
> even know that it is so expensive. From a distance (more then 2 meters)
> it looks like a Deore RD.
And if you aren't a bike geek my road bike looks _exactly_ like coach's
road bike.
We have the same frame and even acquired our road bikes in the same
fashion of trade and gift of pieces friends weren't using.
The difference is that the pieces my friends aren't using are SIS and
the pieces his friends aren't using are Campy.
At a certain point bike geekery is only conspicuous consumption if you
tell people. Otherwise they might fail to notice.
-M
Mark Hickey
>Mark Hickey <ma...@habcycles.com>wrote:
>
>>"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>>>Where does this notion come from? I find that 10s chains wear like 9s
>>>ones, like 8s ones..not better but no worse either.
>>
>>There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
>>someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
>>cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
>>9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
>>individual cogs get thinner).
>
>Are cogs on 10-speed cassettes thinner?
Yep. For example, assuming a Shimano drivetrain, and going from 8 to
9 to 10 speed cassette cogs, the cog thickness goes from 1.8 to 1.76
to 1.6mm.
Donald Gillies
>There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
>someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
>cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
>9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
>individual cogs get thinner).
Ahem. Cogs have not really been getting thinner, this is an urban
myth. Spacers and CHAINS have been getting thinner, NOT cogs.
Only SHIMANO-10 cogs are substantially thinner than other cogs, most
cogs are about 1.8 mm thick +/- a few percent, always have been, and
probably always will be.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
Mark
> Mark Hickey <ma...@habcycles.com> writes:
>
>
>>There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
>>someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
>>cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
>>9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
>>individual cogs get thinner).
>
>
> Ahem. Cogs have not really been getting thinner, this is an urban
> myth. Spacers and CHAINS have been getting thinner, NOT cogs.
>
> Only SHIMANO-10 cogs are substantially thinner than other cogs, most
> cogs are about 1.8 mm thick +/- a few percent, always have been, and
> probably always will be.
Looking at the reference you give, I gather you have an alternate
meaning for "always".
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing
>
> - Don Gillies
Mark J.
Mark Hickey
>Mark Hickey <ma...@habcycles.com> writes:
>
>>There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
>>someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
>>cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
>>9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
>>individual cogs get thinner).
>
>Ahem. Cogs have not really been getting thinner, this is an urban
>myth. Spacers and CHAINS have been getting thinner, NOT cogs.
Kinda odd that you trimmed the bit where I mention that the Shimano
cogs went from 1.8 to 1.76 to 1.6mm in their journey from 8 to 9 to 10
speed format.
>Only SHIMANO-10 cogs are substantially thinner than other cogs, most
>cogs are about 1.8 mm thick +/- a few percent, always have been, and
>probably always will be.
Errrr.... let's examine Campy (that way we will have covered 95% of
the market)... 8 to 9 to 10: 1.9, 1.75, 1.7.
I'm a bit confused how THAT translates into "always have been, and
probably always will be" though.
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing
Odd that you cite that, since it also contains the information above.
Donald Gillies
>Errrr.... let's examine Campy (that way we will have covered 95% of
>the market)... 8 to 9 to 10: 1.9, 1.75, 1.7.
you may be technically correct but you draw conclusions that are
simply wrong. If you think that reducing cog thickness from 1.8 mm to
1.7 mm is going to create a substantial increase in drivetrain wear
(we're talking only a 6% decrease in cog width), then I have some
bridges to sell to you in manhatten. What'll you bid ???
What WILL cause additional drivetrain wear is shrinking the chain.
So, as you you go from 5-speed rear cluster to a 10-speed (campy) rear
cluster, it would be a good idea to change the chain MUCH more often,
maybe 2x or even 3x more often. But the cogs should last PROBABLY
LONGER because now you have the wear spread among 10 cogs, not 5 cogs,
assuming you have chosen your gearing correctly.
I always try to agree with people if I think they draw the right
conclusions ...
- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA
Donald Gillies
>gil...@cs.ubc.ca (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>>Mark Hickey <ma...@habcycles.com> writes:
>>
>>>There may be some basis for fact there though... think about it. If
>>>someone's gotten into the habit of changing out their chain ever X
>>>cassette replacements, they'll go through more chains going from 8 to
>>>9 or from 9 to 10 speed cassettes (which DO wear out quicker as the
>>>individual cogs get thinner).
>>
You seem also to be talking mainly about Shimano shifting technology.
It is well known that Shimano "pre-wears" their cogs in order to cause
the shifting to happen just a little bit sooner than with new, tall -
profiled cog teeth. This is also a recent development. Again, this
likely to be a far great contributor to early drivetrain wear-out than
a 5-6% decrease in cog width over the past 50 years (Excluding
Shimano-10 gears, as I stated earlier.)