Soldering

Tom Kunich

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Apr 28, 2023, 11:03:08 AM4/28/23

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I find it interesting that I am informed that the Stupidest of the stupid 5 don't know that electronic soldering irons used on actual printed circuit boards are DC:

SPECIFICATIONS
Temperature: Max 400 degrees Celsius
Power: USB C PD and QC 3.0 9-20 Volts (9-45W) DC 9-24 Volts (9-65W)
Wattage: Variable based on power supply: 9-65W
Dimensions: 170 mm (Handle to tip)

AC soldering shows that some idiot is talking about soldering chips into or onto printed circuit boards is using a soldering gun so that they can destroy the chip. Obviously like the choice of the homeless Liebermann to me. No wonder he couldn't hold a job. I'm sure that the "electronics engineer" Flunkyliar and no doubt Krygowski have also chipped in on this since they've never actually done any technician work.

Tom Kunich

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Apr 28, 2023, 11:46:30 AM4/28/23

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Only the stupid 5 would believe that 5 or 2.5 volt parts would happily be exposed to AC without damage. The mind is astonished by the sheer ignorance of people that time after time call themselves engineers. And yet these same people deny that I made a lot more than a good living as an non-degreed electronics engineer. During my time in the industry I found those without degrees to be more effective and trustworthy. And that is heavily underscored by Flunkyliar who calls himself an electronics engineer but couldn't read one simple program that did nothing more than trigger a signal and flash a light. Stupid is as stupid does.

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Apr 28, 2023, 12:58:07 PM4/28/23

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You can always tell when tommy is thoroughly embarrassed - he creates a new discussion with partial information cherry picked to support his claim (if not outright lying) with the intent of insulting anyone who dared to claim he was wrong.

Here he lists some specifications of some non-descript part without fully understanding the nature of the discussion, and flatly lies about his little water detector.

Yes, tommy managed to find a DC powered battery operated soldering iron. However, he completely ignores the information already posted in other discussions which clearly describe the methods using RF (yes tommy, RF qualifies as AC) to heat soldering iron tips. It's possible he just doesn't understand it, in fact, it's likely. The larger driving issue however is that he's more interested in "proving" he's right and everyone else is wrong, even at the expense of revealing his abject ignorance. The links and discussions to the technology using RF heat as well as commercially available products that use the technology have been listed eslewhere, so I wont bother to re list them here - that's his partial cherry-picked information.

I described his silly little project and also explained why it won't work - that's his lie.

We can just chalk this up to another case of "you must be tommy, you're doing it wrong".

Jeff Liebermann

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Apr 28, 2023, 4:54:59 PM4/28/23

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On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:03:06 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I find it interesting that I am informed that the Stupidest of the stupid 5 don't know that electronic soldering irons used on actual printed circuit boards are DC:
>
>SPECIFICATIONS
>Temperature: Max 400 degrees Celsius
>Power: USB C PD and QC 3.0 9-20 Volts (9-45W) DC 9-24 Volts (9-65W)
>Wattage: Variable based on power supply: 9-65W
>Dimensions: 170 mm (Handle to tip)

No URL? No manufacturers name? No model number? You had to really
work hard to NOT include such information. Well, there's a little in
what you provided to work with. Your soldering iron is powered by
USB-C PD (power delivery) or QC (quick charge) charger, as found on
cell phone and laptop chargers. It's probably something like this:
<https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Digital-80-420%C2%B0C-Heating-Display/dp/B0C1G9MNNT>

A USB soldering iron is a good idea except for some potential
problems:

- The negative output wire, which is typically the "ground" wire, is
usually isolated and NOT connected to an AC line protective ground. If
the charger does not have a protective ground plug, you may find an
unacceptable voltage between tip and ground.

- I doubt it will have UL, CSA, CE etc safety certifications.

- The typical USB-C cable is not designed to sustained high currents.
It will become hot or act like a fuse if you try to run it at maximum
power for any length of time.

Again, these are potential problems, which may or may not be real
problems. If Tom had included a link for this soldering iron, it
would have been much easier to determine which.

>AC soldering shows that some idiot is talking about soldering chips into or onto printed circuit boards is using a soldering gun so that they can destroy the chip. Obviously like the choice of the homeless Liebermann to me. No wonder he couldn't hold a job. I'm sure that the "electronics engineer" Flunkyliar and no doubt Krygowski have also chipped in on this since they've never actually done any technician work.

You didn't read what I wrote. Do you consider PWM (pulse width
modulated) power to be AC or DC? There are talking points for both
views. I preferred to call it AC because PWM uses a switching power
regulator. If it used an analog or linear regulator, I would consider
it DC powered.

I thought that Edison vs Tesla/Westinghouse had settled the matter 100
years ago. AC is better than DC.

I haven't owned or used a soldering gun since high skool (about 1965).

Incidentally, for SMD (surface mount device) soldering and general
desoldering, I use one of these hot air stations:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/pace-desoldering-station.jpg>
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/185481502217>
The one I use the most is an earlier version of this:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/393667585192>
For SMD reflow, I use a toaster oven:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/repair/BGA%20reflow/index.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Apr 29, 2023, 7:53:29 AM4/29/23

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On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:54:59 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 08:03:06 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I find it interesting that I am informed that the Stupidest of the stupid 5 don't know that electronic soldering irons used on actual printed circuit boards are DC:
> >
> >SPECIFICATIONS
> >Temperature: Max 400 degrees Celsius
> >Power: USB C PD and QC 3.0 9-20 Volts (9-45W) DC 9-24 Volts (9-65W)
> >Wattage: Variable based on power supply: 9-65W
> >Dimensions: 170 mm (Handle to tip)
> No URL? No manufacturers name? No model number? You had to really
> work hard to NOT include such information. Well, there's a little in
> what you provided to work with. Your soldering iron is powered by
> USB-C PD (power delivery) or QC (quick charge) charger, as found on
> cell phone and laptop chargers. It's probably something like this:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Digital-80-420%C2%B0C-Heating-Display/dp/B0C1G9MNNT>

It's actually a Miniware TS101, and tommy snipped it from here:
https://www.tomshardware.com/best-picks/best-soldering-irons

but they have a more in-depth review here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/miniware-ts101-smart-soldering-iron-review-lots-of-options

(see how easy that was tommy?)

>
> A USB soldering iron is a good idea except for some potential
> problems:
>
> - The negative output wire, which is typically the "ground" wire, is
> usually isolated and NOT connected to an AC line protective ground. If
> the charger does not have a protective ground plug, you may find an
> unacceptable voltage between tip and ground.
>
> - I doubt it will have UL, CSA, CE etc safety certifications.

The user manual is predictably light on details, only claiming FCC part 15 and CE compliance. They can self declare CE, but there would have to be a filing with FCC - I haven't bothered to search for it.

https://www.miniware.com.cn/how-to-use/#

With no mention whatsoever of ESD precautions when operating from an ungrounded PS. At least the manual is reasonably well-written with only minor 'engrish' issues.

Curiously, the Tom's Hardware link also doesn't mention anything about ESD precautions when operating from an ungrounded PS either - one would think that should be something they should address.

>
> - The typical USB-C cable is not designed to sustained high currents.
> It will become hot or act like a fuse if you try to run it at maximum
> power for any length of time.
>
> Again, these are potential problems, which may or may not be real
> problems. If Tom had included a link for this soldering iron, it
> would have been much easier to determine which.
> >AC soldering shows that some idiot is talking about soldering chips into or onto printed circuit boards is using a soldering gun so that they can destroy the chip. Obviously like the choice of the homeless Liebermann to me. No wonder he couldn't hold a job. I'm sure that the "electronics engineer" Flunkyliar and no doubt Krygowski have also chipped in on this since they've never actually done any technician work.
> You didn't read what I wrote. Do you consider PWM (pulse width
> modulated) power to be AC or DC?

neither, it's a cable testing technique, lol...

Tom Kunich

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Apr 30, 2023, 5:17:35 PM4/30/23

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On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:03:08 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:

The Bullshit that came out of the stupid 4 was pretty ridiculous. People who know NOTHING about electronics were telling you all about it. In order to give you some idea of the scale of these things here is a picture: https://www.rd.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/shutterstock_415053097-760x506.jpg This is either a resister or a capacitor of which there can be hundreds on a surface mount board. They are perhaps 1.5 x .5 mm in size. Integrated circuits that can cost as much as a $1,000 apiece and with a single solder bridge turned into absolute trash. As you can see, these parts CAN be soldered onto a board by people with really good eyes and a lot of practice. By the time surface mounded boards came out I would never have even tried to do this - there were large component placement machines that did it. These were used by large assembly companies. https://www.raypcb.com/smt-machine/ You had to design a board with their specific design and placement programs and they worked off of special circuit design software just to draw the schematics. So I had to know a dozen different design programs just to draw a schematic which would then be used to design the circuit board. And I had to be familiar with the way each program designed a circuit board because some were good for minimum electronic noise while others for maximum current capacities if you were designing power supplies to power several boards without transmitting noise from one to the other.

Now small startups would sometimes use surface mount technology because of the extremely small currents they use. But they would be put together by (almost always) women assemblers under microscopes and using DC soldering irons. Can you just imagine the effect a 110 VAC signal would have on a component that operates at 2.5 VDC? Imagine the board that I designed for NASA that had over 1,000 components on it being a throw-away because someone like Flunky thinks that soldering is easy.

Of course Flunky will tell you that the boards would be on an insulated surface because he is plainly not an engineer and doesn't understand the capacitive effect especially from large AC fields. When I was working at Physics International, when we discharged the 20 million volts, the entire building would shake and it sounded like a shotgun going off. And it was a HUGE concrete structure. So imagine a 110 volt AC soldering iron on a component 1.5 mm long tied to perhaps a 6 layer circuit board with maybe three ground planes. This was all a matter of learning over the years since we STARTED plugging IC's into peg boards and hand wiring them and you had to do all of your own testing from then until now. Time is always important and someone else having to learn what YOUR design is supposed to do is an anchor on a project.

The comments on soldering irons made by the Stupid 4 only shows you that they don't know anything about it. Soldering is not as simple as they would have you believe. And of course they want you to believe that they really know what they're doing. That's why you have them saying that soldering irons are AC and it doesn't matter at all.

John B.

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Apr 30, 2023, 7:13:36 PM4/30/23

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On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

And once again our very own stupid Tommy shows his ignorance yet
again.

You talk about soldering as though the only things soldered are tiny
little parts on a circuit board when actually soldering is used in
many ways, for many things. Someone mentioned soldering galvanized
roofing the other day. I've seen soldered copper tubing used in house
water systems, and on and on and on.
There is even a method, called "silver soldering" that can be used to
fasten steel bicycle tubes together.
--
Cheers,

John B.

AMuzi

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Apr 30, 2023, 7:31:09 PM4/30/23

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Gasoline tanks are repaired by adding a bottom steel panel
then lead soldering it in place. Very effective.

'Silver solder' is a misnomer. It's a braze process.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski

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Apr 30, 2023, 8:16:03 PM4/30/23

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True. The distinction is based on the melting point (liquidus) of the filler or joining metal,
but AFAIK the limit (450 C) was a pretty arbitrary choice.

Just a few weeks ago I had to fabricate a replacement thumb rest for my antique clarinet.
I joined the two fairly tiny bits using silver "solder."

- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann

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Apr 30, 2023, 8:16:22 PM4/30/23

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On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>https://www.rd.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/shutterstock_415053097-760x506.jpg
>This is either a resister or a capacitor...

It's an SMD capacitor. It's a bit difficult to tell, but judging by
the adjacent QFP (quad flat pack) device, I would guess that it's a
1206 size capacitor.
<https://www.zaxis.net/smd-package-types-sizes/>
However, there's a problem with your photo. You don't grab the
capacitor by the contacts unless you want to glue or solder the
hemostat to the PCB. If you were inserting it in a carrier, there's
no room for the tips. If you were inserting it into test fixture, the
tips would probably bend the fixture contacts. You want to grab the
sides of the capacitor instead. Also, I don't like serrated tips
because they can easily crack the edges of the capacitor. These are
what SMD tweezers look like:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=smd+tweezers&tbm=isch>
Personally, I prefer ESD safe ceramic (insulated) tweezers:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=smd+ceramic+tweezers&tbm=isch>
Also, there's a chance that the SMD capacitor in the photo is an MLCC
capacitor. If you apply too much pressure or too large a temperature
differential across the part during soldering, you'll crack the
capacitor. Ask anyone who bought an early Mac Mini.

>of which there can be hundreds on a surface mount board. They
>are perhaps 1.5 x .5 mm in size.

Here's a chart:
<http://www.electroniccircuitsdesign.com/sites/default/files/img/smd-flat-chip.jpg>
Oddly, I don't find 1.5 x 0.5 mm on the list.
Hint: Spend a few milliseconds and search for a real numbers before
invention your own.

>Integrated circuits that can cost as much as a $1,000 apiece and
>with a single solder bridge turned into absolute trash.

I don't know about soldering such expensive chips by hand. Maybe
something in GaAs or InPh might cost that much. Something that
expensive is usually handled by a robot.

As for solder bridges on SMD components, they don't ruin the part. I
have three SMD rework stations, all of which use hot air to reflow the
solder. Solder bridges are fairly easy. Reflowing BGA (ball grid
array) packages is far more difficult, yet with the proper equipment
can be performed successfully.

>As you can see, these parts CAN be soldered onto a board by people
>with really good eyes and a lot of practice.

Also include a steady hand, lots of flux, flux removing solvent, and
some really good tools. I have the patience, but the eyes are
becoming a problem. I'm currently using a microscope camera and a
large screen display for reworking dense PCB's.

>By the time surface mounded boards came out I would never have
>even tried to do this - there were large component placement
>machines that did it.

SMD components arrived in the early 1970's. I tried to design SMD
technology into the company products with little success. Management
decided that production wasn't ready to learn something new and was
reluctant to invest in new machinery and talent. So, I built my
prototypes by hand. Eastman 910 (cyanoacrylate) adhesive to place the
components and a home made infrared soldering gun. (We didn't have
cheap solder paste at the time). I had problems, but in the end, my
prototype radios worked. Management continued to be reluctant to
adopt SMD technology. Then, the Japanese supplier of the companies
low end consumer radios arrived with a new version of their existing
radio. It was mostly SMD components and cost about 1/3 less than the
previous through-hole radio. Management was eventually sold on SMD,
but I was working for a different company by then.

>These were used by large assembly companies.
>https://www.raypcb.com/smt-machine/
>You had to design a board with their specific design and placement
>programs and they worked off of
>special circuit design software just to draw the schematics.

True. However, it wasn't like engineers and PCB designers are forced
to use their software. There are plenty of EDA (electronic design
automation) software available with plugins for various pick-and-place
machines. I'm still learning to use KiCad (free):
<https://www.kicad.org>
The latest X3 Gerber file format includes component information and
can be exported to whatever the XY file the machine wants:
<https://smtnet.com/company/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_company&company_id=40857&component=catalog&catalog_id=11103>

>So I had to know a dozen different design programs just to draw
>a schematic which would then be used to design the circuit board.

What year was this? Most EDA and PCB layout programs have had
integrated schematic capture and BoM (bill of materials) features
since about 1995.

>And I had to be familiar with the way each program designed a
>circuit board because some were good for minimum electronic
>noise while others for maximum current capacities if you were
>designing power supplies to power several boards without transmitting
>noise from one to the other.

You designed a switching power supply? I haven't, but I've had to
clean up someone else's mess. The PCB layout program doesn't design
anything unless you used a boiler plate (schematic) design and/or
autoroute to run the traces. That's a guaranteed disaster for most
applications. Best to do the important stuff by hand and let
autoroute struggle with the rest.

>Now small startups would sometimes use surface mount technology
>because of the extremely small currents they use. But they would
>be put together by (almost always) women assemblers under microscopes
>and using DC soldering irons.

Companies use surface mount technology because it's better, denser,
cheaper, and most important, can be automated. There are SMD products
that require hand soldering, but those are for either hand selected
components or physically large, fragile or awkward components that are
not easily reflow soldered.

>Can you just imagine the effect a 110 VAC signal would have on a
>component that operates at 2.5 VDC?

No effect if the soldering iron tip is grounded. Major damage is you
use an ungrounded tip. Incidentally, most of the AC soldering irons
use 24VAC heaters. I think all of Weller's products are 24VAC or DC.

>Imagine the board that I designed for NASA that had over 1,000
>components on it being a throw-away because someone like Flunky
>thinks that soldering is easy.

I might believe that you worked for NASA after you put it on your
resume.

Soldering is easy. Over the years, I've taught a few people how to do
it. In most cases, they had either learned by themselves or whomever
taught them didn't know what they were doing. Once the bad
assumptions have been removed, re-teaching someone to solder is easy.

>Of course Flunky will tell you that the boards would be on an
>insulated surface because he is plainly not an engineer and doesn't
>understand the capacitive effect especially from large AC fields.

The PCB's are in an ESD safe frame or holder like this:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=pcb+adjustable+PCB+holder&tbm=isch>
I have a few of these:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=panavise+PCB+holder&tbm=isch>

>When I was working at Physics International,

I might believe you worked for Physics International after you put it
on your resume.

>when we discharged
>the 20 million volts, the entire building would shake and it sounded
>like a shotgun going off. And it was a HUGE concrete structure.
>So imagine a 110 volt AC soldering iron on a component 1.5 mm long
>tied to perhaps a 6 layer circuit board with maybe three ground planes.
>This was all a matter of learning over the years since we STARTED
>plugging IC's into peg boards and hand wiring them and you had
>to do all of your own testing from then until now. Time is always
>important and someone else having to learn what YOUR design is
>supposed to do is an anchor on a project.

Gibberish. I'm going to try to decode and untangle that mess.

Incidentally, the last time you mentioned that (see below), it was 120
million electron volts, which was wrong, but which you fervently
defended. Nice of you to finally drop your eV mistake and to claim a
voltage only 3 times larger than what was documented.

07/02/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/rruYWggsZ2s/m/4N9vIJzcBgAJ>
"I've spent almost my entire life in science and not one of these
people even know what I'm talking about. Jeff is such a nitwit he was
trying to find some patents from Physics International that mentioned
6 million electron volts (which was on my machine - B Square) or the
120 million electron volts that was on B Cube."

>The comments on soldering irons made by the Stupid 4 only shows
>you that they don't know anything about it. Soldering is not as
>simple as they would have you believe. And of course they want
>you to believe that they really know what they're doing. That's
>why you have them saying that soldering irons are AC and it
>doesn't matter at all.

Soldering is simple. Soldering irons can be powered by any flavor of
electricity that can be converted to heat. I've seen fiber optic
laser soldering irons, which are usually found in robots:
<https://www.apolloseiko.com/products/laser-soldering>

Almost 100% wrong as usual.

John B.

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Apr 30, 2023, 8:24:00 PM4/30/23

to

"Soldering" is usually defined as the use of a metal with a lower
melting temperature then the parent metals being bonded to bond two
parts together. Which also describes silver (whatever you wish to call
it) and brass "brazing", and yes, you can call it silver brazing if
you wish some people do and others use the term solder as in
https://www.lazada.co.th/tag/silver-solder/
https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/silver-solder-flux
One source https://www.britannica.com/technology/brazing
defines the difference by temperature, soldering below 430 degrees (C)
an brazing above that figure.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B.

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Apr 30, 2023, 8:31:12 PM4/30/23

to

On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 17:16:10 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

In another post Tom was complaining about the lack of "conversation"
on this site. Your reply is evidence that there is at least one side
of a conversation so lets see if Tom cares to participate (:-)

My guess is that he won't reply (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Jeff Liebermann

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Apr 30, 2023, 9:19:43 PM4/30/23

to

On Mon, 01 May 2023 07:31:05 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>In another post Tom was complaining about the lack of "conversation"
>on this site. Your reply is evidence that there is at least one side
>of a conversation so lets see if Tom cares to participate (:-)

I'm not sure that could be considered even a one sided conversation. I
demonstrated that Tom didn't know anything about CAD and electronic
design, posted corrections to his allegations, and asked some
questions which I didn't expect Tom to answer honestly. If I really
wanted a "conversation", I would have provided Tom with better
questions and appropriate answers.

>My guess is that he won't reply (:-)

My guess(tm) is that he'll reply with a change of topic. Maybe
something from Town Hall, USAF, politics, guns, bicycle lanes, his
numerous bicycle problems, something from another thread, or attack
something that he claims someone wrote, but didn't. The choice of
diversions are endless. With luck, he might accidentally mention
something about bicycle technology. I suspect we might have more
interesting "conversations" if all parties involved would has some
respect for those with whom they disagree. With Tom, I'm trying to do
this, but it's difficult, very difficult.

We'll just have to wait until he gets an email from his imaginary
provider of RBT information. Tom functions best when he gets his
information from a 3rd party.

I've been playing with AI (artificial intelligence) lately, which has
led me to suspect that the imaginary provider function could be
performed with an AI bot. First, feed it Tom's initial biases,
political orientation and assumptions. Next, point it to TownHall.com
for references. Then ask it the pressing question of the day. It
might take a while, but I think it will eventually produce some
interesting results.

John B.

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Apr 30, 2023, 9:31:09 PM4/30/23

to

On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 18:19:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Does "modern" AI pass the Turing Test.... which dates to about 1950?
--
Cheers,

John B.

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Apr 30, 2023, 9:51:08 PM4/30/23

to

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 5:17:35 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:03:08 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I find it interesting that I am informed that the Stupidest of the stupid 5 don't know that electronic soldering irons used on actual printed circuit boards are DC:
> >
> > SPECIFICATIONS
> > Temperature: Max 400 degrees Celsius
> > Power: USB C PD and QC 3.0 9-20 Volts (9-45W) DC 9-24 Volts (9-65W)
> > Wattage: Variable based on power supply: 9-65W
> > Dimensions: 170 mm (Handle to tip)
> >
> > AC soldering shows that some idiot is talking about soldering chips into or onto printed circuit boards is using a soldering gun so that they can destroy the chip. Obviously like the choice of the homeless Liebermann to me. No wonder he couldn't hold a job. I'm sure that the "electronics engineer" Flunkyliar and no doubt Krygowski have also chipped in on this since they've never actually done any technician work.
> The Bullshit that came out of the stupid 4 was pretty ridiculous. People who know NOTHING about electronics were telling you all about it. In order to give you some idea of the scale of these things here is a picture: https://www.rd.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/shutterstock_415053097-760x506.jpg This is either a resister or a capacitor

It's a ceramic cap. SMD resistors don' t look anything like that.

>of which there can be hundreds on a surface mount board. They are perhaps 1.5 x .5 mm in size.

1.5mm x.5mm isn't a JEDEC size, If you had the slightest clue what you were talking about, you would know that. Common sizes are measured in imperial units, where the first two digits indicate length in tenths of inches and the second two indicate width in tenths of inches. Common sizes are 0201, 0402, 0603, and 1206. If you're going to attack someone for not being familiar with the technology, you might want brush up on it yourself. Here's a little help, not that you would avail yourself to it: https://www.zaxis.net/smd-package-types-sizes/

> Integrated circuits that can cost as much as a $1,000 apiece and with a single solder bridge turned into absolute trash.

Many assemblies cost significantly more, and no, a solder bridge doesn't ruin the board. During testing the trouble shootings steps can point to such problems - remove the short and you're usually good to go.

> As you can see, these parts CAN be soldered onto a board by people with really good eyes and a lot of practice. By the time surface mounded boards came out I would never have even tried to do this - there were large component placement machines that did it. These were used by large assembly companies. https://www.raypcb.com/smt-machine/

Any contract PCB manufacturer uses pick-and-place machines. You can't rely on humans to mass produce product with devices as small as 0201, We use two different CMs to build our SMD assemblies.

> You had to design a board with their specific design and placement programs and they worked off of special circuit design software just to draw the schematics. So I had to know a dozen different design programs just to draw a schematic which would then be used to design the circuit board.

Well....that's complete bullshit - the layout program doesn't give a shit about the schematic capture program. Never did. The only issue is if the layout program can import the schematic file. Once the SC file has been imported, the layout designer enters a number of parameters into the layout program and you get a gerber file which describes the traces, vias and pads. This is a vast oversimplification but those are basically the steps.

> And I had to be familiar with the way each program designed a circuit board because some were good for minimum electronic noise while others for maximum current capacities if you were designing power supplies to power several boards without transmitting noise from one to the other.

There used to be a grain of truth to this, but not an issue any more except is very specific applications. Just about any layout program will have modules to optimize the layout for certain characteristics...try and keep up skippy, technology has left you way behind.

>
> Now small startups would sometimes use surface mount technology because of the extremely small currents they use.

Small start ups use small currents? What the fuck does that even mean? The size of a start up has _literally_ nothing to do with the amount of current their product will use....wow. You've typed some stupid shit before, but this really takes the cake.

> But they would be put together by (almost always) women assemblers under microscopes.
lol.... not even close. We just had a proto run of ten SMD PCAs built buy a small pick and place machine. My last manager actually wanted to buy one for in-house prototyping.

>and using DC soldering irons.

(gawd)....get over it tommy. No reputable SMD supplier uses DC soldering irons, they use RF units, and only for rework. Even small quantity run PCAs are built with pick-and-place then run through a reflow oven - if all goes well no human hands are involved in the process.

> Can you just imagine the effect a 110 VAC signal would have on a component that operates at 2.5 VDC?

Yes, it's just comical you're holding onto this bizarre notion that anyone her has made a claom that sodering irons are heated with AC mains voltage.

> Imagine the board that I designed for NASA that had over 1,000 components on it

We would have to imagine that, because it never happened.

> being a throw-away because someone like Flunky thinks that soldering is easy.

It is easy.

> Of course Flunky will tell you that the boards would be on an insulated surface because he is plainly not an engineer and

PC boards are by definition insulators. If they weren't, you wouldn't be able to isolate circuits. FR4 fiberglass is by far the most comment PCB material, it's quite a good insulator with relatively good capacitance.
it only becomes an issue at microwave frequencies, then one should consider a teflon based material like Duroid.

> doesn't understand the capacitive effect especially from large AC fields.

Wow....Large AC fields have capacitance? Congratulations sparky, you just won the nobel prize for physics.

> When I was working at Physics International, when we discharged the 20 million volts, the entire building would shake and it sounded like a shotgun going off.
> And it was a HUGE concrete structure. So imagine a 110 volt AC soldering iron on a component 1.5 mm long tied to perhaps a 6 layer circuit board with maybe three ground planes.

Again, we would have to imagine it, because no one does that, and no one implied anyone does that.

> This was all a matter of learning over the years since we STARTED plugging IC's into peg boards and hand wiring them and you had to do all of your own testing from then until now. Time is always important and someone else having to learn what YOUR design is supposed to do is an anchor on a project.
>
> The comments on soldering irons made by the Stupid 4 only shows you that they don't know anything about it. Soldering is not as simple as they would have you believe.

Yes, it is.

> And of course they want you to believe that they really know what they're doing. That's why you have them saying that soldering irons are AC and it doesn't matter at all.

wow....so much stupidity from tommy in one post. I could spend all night ripping this apart...

AMuzi

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Apr 30, 2023, 10:05:06 PM4/30/23

to

AI is everywhere now. They're more electable than humans!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWZ8kyg3ajQ

funkma...@hotmail.com

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Apr 30, 2023, 10:24:04 PM4/30/23

to

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 8:16:22 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nicely done, denonstrating tommy's latest idiocy (see my response .....)

Just a couple of comments

> <snipped tweezer discussion>

That was likely a marketing photo, I've never met an assembler with any clue at all that would use tweezers like that.

><snipped SMD sizing>

One of the many clues that tommy doesn't have a clue.

>Integrated circuits that can cost as much as a $1,000 apiece and
> >with a single solder bridge turned into absolute trash.
> I don't know about soldering such expensive chips by hand. Maybe
> something in GaAs or InPh might cost that much. Something that
> expensive is usually handled by a robot.

I interpreted his comment as meaning the assembly may cost that much. I see now I was wrong - he was talking about individual components. I guess some low-volume ASICs might come into the $K range, but generally speaking you're right. One would be hard pressed to find any production assemblies with $K ICs.

> As for solder bridges on SMD components, they don't ruin the part. I
> have three SMD rework stations, all of which use hot air to reflow the
> solder. Solder bridges are fairly easy. Reflowing BGA (ball grid
> array) packages is far more difficult, yet with the proper equipment
> can be performed successfully.

We actually have a very well regarded SMD rework house a few miles from me. I've used them on several occasions, most notably to replace a TI DSP BGA device for us when we decided to change it on some proto boards. Luckily the footprint was the same, but they claim they could have reworked the layout of we needed changes. https://www.circuitrework.com/services/bga-site-modification.html

> >As you can see, these parts CAN be soldered onto a board by people
> >with really good eyes and a lot of practice.
> Also include a steady hand, lots of flux, flux removing solvent, and
> some really good tools. I have the patience, but the eyes are
> becoming a problem. I'm currently using a microscope camera and a
> large screen display for reworking dense PCB's.

I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to be able to do rework on fine-pitch devices without a microscope.

> >By the time surface mounded boards came out I would never have
> >even tried to do this - there were large component placement
> >machines that did it.
> SMD components arrived in the early 1970's. I tried to design SMD
> technology into the company products with little success. Management
> decided that production wasn't ready to learn something new and was
> reluctant to invest in new machinery and talent. So, I built my
> prototypes by hand. Eastman 910 (cyanoacrylate) adhesive to place the
> components and a home made infrared soldering gun. (We didn't have
> cheap solder paste at the time). I had problems, but in the end, my
> prototype radios worked. Management continued to be reluctant to
> adopt SMD technology. Then, the Japanese supplier of the companies
> low end consumer radios arrived with a new version of their existing
> radio. It was mostly SMD components and cost about 1/3 less than the
> previous through-hole radio. Management was eventually sold on SMD,
> but I was working for a different company by then.

Challenge of the day - try designing a new product with through-hole technology. Many CMs these days push away from through hole because it's more labor intensive and they don't want to deal with wave soldering any more - maintaining the heat, solder level, purity, cutting blades - SMD systems are basically pick-and-place and a reflow stage. Even lower end systems can be completely integrated using a conveyer system where PCB pallets are built, then moved to the oven, and an assembled pallet of boards is shat out the end.

> >These were used by large assembly companies.
> >https://www.raypcb.com/smt-machine/
> >You had to design a board with their specific design and placement
> >programs and they worked off of
> >special circuit design software just to draw the schematics.
> True. However, it wasn't like engineers and PCB designers are forced
> to use their software. There are plenty of EDA (electronic design
> automation) software available with plugins for various pick-and-place
> machines. I'm still learning to use KiCad (free):
> <https://www.kicad.org>
> The latest X3 Gerber file format includes component information and
> can be exported to whatever the XY file the machine wants:
> <https://smtnet.com/company/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_company&company_id=40857&component=catalog&catalog_id=11103>

As I noted in my response - the schematic capture process has nothing to do with the layout. It's the other way around. Sure, you may need to tweak a node in theshcmatic if the layout program can't figure it out, but that's pretty rare these days.

> >So I had to know a dozen different design programs just to draw
> >a schematic which would then be used to design the circuit board.
> What year was this? Most EDA and PCB layout programs have had
> integrated schematic capture and BoM (bill of materials) features
> since about 1995.

It wasn't any year. Tommy, as usual, is talking out of his ass.

> >And I had to be familiar with the way each program designed a
> >circuit board because some were good for minimum electronic
> >noise while others for maximum current capacities if you were
> >designing power supplies to power several boards without transmitting
> >noise from one to the other.
> You designed a switching power supply? I haven't, but I've had to
> clean up someone else's mess. The PCB layout program doesn't design
> anything unless you used a boiler plate (schematic) design and/or
> autoroute to run the traces. That's a guaranteed disaster for most
> applications. Best to do the important stuff by hand and let
> autoroute struggle with the rest.

Again, with the design tools available today, the need for hand-tweaking is becoming more and more rare - even with RF "black magic".

> >Now small startups would sometimes use surface mount technology
> >because of the extremely small currents they use.

I'm surprised you missed this little gem....small startups use small currents? WFT!?!?!

> But they would
> >be put together by (almost always) women assemblers under microscopes
> >and using DC soldering irons.
> Companies use surface mount technology because it's better, denser,
> cheaper, and most important, can be automated. There are SMD products
> that require hand soldering, but those are for either hand selected
> components or physically large, fragile or awkward components that are
> not easily reflow soldered.
> >Can you just imagine the effect a 110 VAC signal would have on a
> >component that operates at 2.5 VDC?
> No effect if the soldering iron tip is grounded. Major damage is you
> use an ungrounded tip. Incidentally, most of the AC soldering irons
> use 24VAC heaters. I think all of Weller's products are 24VAC or DC.
> >Imagine the board that I designed for NASA that had over 1,000
> >components on it being a throw-away because someone like Flunky
> >thinks that soldering is easy.
> I might believe that you worked for NASA after you put it on your
> resume.

I don't believe it either way.

>
> Soldering is easy. Over the years, I've taught a few people how to do
> it. In most cases, they had either learned by themselves or whomever
> taught them didn't know what they were doing. Once the bad
> assumptions have been removed, re-teaching someone to solder is easy.

Yes, that's why electronics assemblers don't get paid much - it doesn't take much to become competent.

> >Of course Flunky will tell you that the boards would be on an
> >insulated surface because he is plainly not an engineer and doesn't
> >understand the capacitive effect especially from large AC fields.
> The PCB's are in an ESD safe frame or holder like this:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=pcb+adjustable+PCB+holder&tbm=isch>
> I have a few of these:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=panavise+PCB+holder&tbm=isch>

I wasn't sure what he was getting at here - jumping from PCAs on an insulated surface to AC fields having capacitive effects........wow

> >When I was working at Physics International,
> I might believe you worked for Physics International after you put it
> on your resume.
> >when we discharged
> >the 20 million volts, the entire building would shake and it sounded
> >like a shotgun going off. And it was a HUGE concrete structure.
> >So imagine a 110 volt AC soldering iron on a component 1.5 mm long
> >tied to perhaps a 6 layer circuit board with maybe three ground planes.
> >This was all a matter of learning over the years since we STARTED
> >plugging IC's into peg boards and hand wiring them and you had
> >to do all of your own testing from then until now. Time is always
> >important and someone else having to learn what YOUR design is
> >supposed to do is an anchor on a project.
> Gibberish.

as was most of his rant

> I'm going to try to decode and untangle that mess.

Brave man....or just bored?

>
> Incidentally, the last time you mentioned that (see below), it was 120
> million electron volts, which was wrong, but which you fervently
> defended. Nice of you to finally drop your eV mistake and to claim a
> voltage only 3 times larger than what was documented.
>
> 07/02/2022
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/rruYWggsZ2s/m/4N9vIJzcBgAJ>
> "I've spent almost my entire life in science and not one of these
> people even know what I'm talking about. Jeff is such a nitwit he was
> trying to find some patents from Physics International that mentioned
> 6 million electron volts (which was on my machine - B Square) or the
> 120 million electron volts that was on B Cube."
> >The comments on soldering irons made by the Stupid 4 only shows
> >you that they don't know anything about it. Soldering is not as
> >simple as they would have you believe. And of course they want
> >you to believe that they really know what they're doing. That's
> >why you have them saying that soldering irons are AC and it
> >doesn't matter at all.
> Soldering is simple. Soldering irons can be powered by any flavor of
> electricity that can be converted to heat. I've seen fiber optic
> laser soldering irons, which are usually found in robots:
> <https://www.apolloseiko.com/products/laser-soldering>
>
> Almost 100% wrong as usual.

+1 (as usual)

Jeff Liebermann

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Apr 30, 2023, 10:48:55 PM4/30/23

to

On Mon, 01 May 2023 08:31:01 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 18:19:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>wrote:

>>I've been playing with AI (artificial intelligence) lately, which has
>>led me to suspect that the imaginary provider function could be
>>performed with an AI bot. First, feed it Tom's initial biases,
>>political orientation and assumptions. Next, point it to TownHall.com
>>for references. Then ask it the pressing question of the day. It
>>might take a while, but I think it will eventually produce some
>>interesting results.

>Does "modern" AI pass the Turing Test.... which dates to about 1950?

Not quite yet, but it's VERY close to successfully impersonating
almost anyone. It's currently possible to create some difficult to
detect voice and face (deepfake) impersonations.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=ai+impersonation+voice>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=deepfake+impersonation>

"Detect AI-generated Images & Deepfakes"
<https://jonathan-hui.medium.com/detect-ai-generated-images-deepfakes-part-1-b518ed5075f4>
<https://jonathan-hui.medium.com/detect-ai-generated-images-deepfakes-part-2-436c57eeb878>
<https://jonathan-hui.medium.com/detect-ai-generated-images-deepfakes-part-3-9c3fdf97d572>
<https://jonathan-hui.medium.com/detect-ai-generated-images-deepfakes-part-4-5f9ae1dfeb13>

Since the success of the internet was partly based on the success of
the many ways it could be abused, it's only a question of time before
abuses of AI become a problem. A friend, who is much more into AI
than me, created a very good voice impersonation of a deceased mutual
acquaintance. He then left a message on my voicemail announcing that
my acquaintance has risen from the dead and would like to join me for
lunch. I had to play it four times before I even suspected that it
was fake. I wasn't certain until I recognized the phone number and
CID (caller ID). Not quite a pass for the Turning test, but close.

Video fakes have a way to go but are close enough now to be a problem.

"6 Real Life Deepfake Examples"
<https://q5id.com/blog/6-real-life-deepfake-examples>

"Tom Cruise Deepfake"
<https://www.google.com/search?q=tom+cruise+deepfake>
"The Person Behind the Viral Tom Cruise Deepfake"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7-B8S734T4>

Drivel: In about 1969, while still in college, I was hired to modify
the design of an interactive speech recognition system used by an
answering service. The device was really crude and could recognize
only some numbers and a few words:
<https://phil-are-go.blogspot.com/2016/05/sceptron-1963-newest-electronic-brain.html>
However, recognition wasn't the problem. It was that the mechanical
speech synthesizer was excessively realistic that callers attempted to
argue with the machine. My job was to modify the speech synthesizer
so that it was obvious to everyone that it was a machine, not a human.

I would not be surprised if eventually there will be limits imposed on
the "realism" of the AI speech and video impersonations.

Jeff Liebermann

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May 1, 2023, 12:06:14 AM5/1/23

to

On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 19:24:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 8:16:22?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Nicely done, denonstrating tommy's latest idiocy (see my response .....)

Thanks.

>> <snipped tweezer discussion>
>That was likely a marketing photo, I've never met an assembler with any clue at all that would use tweezers like that.

I originally thought it was a curved hemostat because of the
serrations, but I wasn't certain. I don't think anyone makes tweezers
with serrations.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=hemostat&tbm=isch>

>>Integrated circuits that can cost as much as a $1,000 apiece and

>I interpreted his comment as meaning the assembly may cost that much.
>I see now I was wrong - he was talking about individual components.
>I guess some low-volume ASICs might come into the $K range, but
>generally speaking you're right. One would be hard pressed to find
>any production assemblies with $K ICs.

Yep. I tend to think in analog terms, not digital. So, my idea of a
$1,000 component was an exotic RF power device, not a custom ASIC.

>We actually have a very well regarded SMD rework house a few miles from me. I've used them on several occasions, most notably to replace a TI DSP BGA device for us when we decided to change it on some proto boards. Luckily the footprint was the same, but they claim they could have reworked the layout of we needed changes. https://www.circuitrework.com/services/bga-site-modification.html

They cheated. They cut the traces and make changes using thin copper
wires. Kinda like the bad old days of wire wrap and stitch wire. For
the computer boards I had to repair, I had some luck reflowing BGA
small BGA chips. However, the larger chips required more heat causing
the underlying motherboard to bend and warm. When it cooled, it would
rip the traces out of the PCB. I wrecked too many boards and switched
to sending them out to a better equipped service shop. Later, I was
able to do better by pre-heating the motherboard.

This is my high tech setup for reflowing the BGA chip on HP LaserJet
printer ethernet cards:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/repair/BGA%20reflow/index.html>
It was a common problem to all such HP boards. I never bothered to do
a post mortem and determine why the BGA solder connections failed so
often. My guess(tm) is incompatibility between the low temperature
bismuth based solder balls and whatever HP used to plate the mating
pads on the PCB.

Also, the BGA problem is not the only chronic failure on HP printers
that HP ignored. This was caused by the glue melting on a noise
reduction felt pad attached to a solenoid. The fix was trivial, but
ignored by HP in multiple models:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/hp2200/hp2200.html>
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/hp4200/hp4200.html>

>Challenge of the day - try designing a new product with through-hole
>technology.

No way. I haven't had the problem, but a friend had to send a
production lot to Mexico to have stuffed because the local contract
manufacturer didn't have enough people available to stuff the boards.

>Many CMs these days push away from through hole because it's
>more labor intensive and they don't want to deal with wave
>soldering any more - maintaining the heat, solder level, purity,
>cutting blades - SMD systems are basically pick-and-place and
>a reflow stage. Even lower end systems can be completely integrated
>using a conveyer system where PCB pallets are built, then moved
>to the oven, and an assembled pallet of boards is shat out the end.

Exactly. SMD technology is so much better, easier and cheaper.
However, thru hole headache remain, even with SMD. There are large
components, such as transformers, giant capacitors, inductors, plastic
parts, etc that the pick and plop machines can't handle. So, they
have to plug the holes with silastic (liquid silicone rubber), solder
the SMD parts, poke out the pink silastic plugs, stuff the large
components and then hand solder. Giant pain, but necessary with some
types of devices (RF power amps and switching power supplies)

>As I noted in my response - the schematic capture process has
>nothing to do with the layout. It's the other way around. Sure,

>you may need to tweak a node in the schmatic if the layout program

>can't figure it out, but that's pretty rare these days.

Yes or maybe. I usually start with the schematic followed by the BoM
(bill-o-materials). The parts list includes component outlines. I
then switch to the PCB outline, give myself a backset for the carrier
frame (bad habit from wave solder days), and place the mounting holes,
large components, connectors and other things that are difficult to
move. I spend quite a bit of time keeping the RF signal path in a
mostly straight line and insuring that there is one large ground pour
on the component side. That acts as a shield, along with the base
mounting plate (or chassis), with all the RF paths on the circuit
side. Please note that is considered heresy by most layout experts. I
often make changes to the schematic not so much because of tweaking,
but because some part is unavailable, manufacturing claims it can't
handle the board, the trace routing failed a rules check, and other
reasons that seem to fall from the sky at inconvenient times. The
only thing that prevents this from continuing forever is the date of
the design freeze (which tends to creep forward).

>> You designed a switching power supply? I haven't, but I've had to
>> clean up someone else's mess. The PCB layout program doesn't design
>> anything unless you used a boiler plate (schematic) design and/or
>> autoroute to run the traces. That's a guaranteed disaster for most
>> applications. Best to do the important stuff by hand and let
>> autoroute struggle with the rest.
>
>Again, with the design tools available today, the need for
>hand-tweaking is becoming more and more rare - even with RF
>"black magic".

Ah, progress. I still recall cutting rubylith film for ground planes,
moving Brady tape and pads around, and applying red Kodak opaque paint
to the negatives. I gave this stuff away about 10 years ago:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/PCB-Layout/>

>> >Now small startups would sometimes use surface mount technology
>> >because of the extremely small currents they use.
>
>I'm surprised you missed this little gem....small startups use small currents? WFT!?!?!

Sorry. I was getting tired near the end. I just looked at the
nonsensical paragraph and rendered some summary judgment. I forgot
what it was. If I had notice, I certainly would have had a good time
with that comment.

>> I might believe that you worked for NASA after you put it on your
>> resume.
>
>I don't believe it either way.

I covered the unlikely possibility that Tom might actually have done
something for NASA with the "I might believe".

>> >Of course Flunky will tell you that the boards would be on an
>> >insulated surface because he is plainly not an engineer and doesn't
>> >understand the capacitive effect especially from large AC fields.
>> The PCB's are in an ESD safe frame or holder like this:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=pcb+adjustable+PCB+holder&tbm=isch>
>> I have a few of these:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=panavise+PCB+holder&tbm=isch>
>
>I wasn't sure what he was getting at here - jumping from PCAs on an insulated surface to AC fields having capacitive effects........wow

I assume he me was referring to an ESD (electrostatic discharge)
problem and commented accordingly. After reading the sentence again,
I probably shouldn't have made that assumption.

> > I'm going to try to decode and untangle that mess.
>
>Brave man....or just bored?

Sorry. I intended to write:
"I'm not going to try to decode and untangle that mess".
I get sloppy when I'm tired. That reminds me... I've been on the
computah most of the day. It's now almost 9PM and I forgot to eat
dinner.

>+1 (as usual)

Thanks. I haven't replied to your comments on the RF soldering iron.
I've done a little reading on induction heaters and discovered that I
don't really understand how they work. I need to do some more reading
before I can properly reply. Remind me if I forget.

Also, I sent you an email to the address in the header with the XX
removed. No reply so I assume the address didn't work. Could you
email me a working address? The message might be interesting, but is
not important.

Luns Tee

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May 1, 2023, 2:16:15 AM5/1/23

to

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:46:30 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Only the stupid 5 would believe that 5 or 2.5 volt parts would happily be exposed to AC without damage.

Birds regularly perch themselves on high voltage transmission lines carrying tens or even hundreds of kilovolts without damage.

More importantly, the tip of a soldering iron is electrically isolated from whatever is powering it just the same as the plate of a clothes iron is. I've done plenty of soldering with a 35W pencil iron whose heating element was literally a resistive wire in a ceramic body with an e12 lamp base. Resistance between the tip and either terminal of the two-prong plug was on the order of megaohms.

-Luns

Luns Tee

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May 1, 2023, 2:36:59 AM5/1/23

to

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:06:14 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Thanks. I haven't replied to your comments on the RF soldering iron.
> I've done a little reading on induction heaters and discovered that I
> don't really understand how they work. I need to do some more reading
> before I can properly reply. Remind me if I forget.

I haven't followed the discussion closely enough to find where RF was brought up, but the Metcal irons I regularly use do use RF. I don't completely understand how they work, but they work extremely well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Wmqc9O24w

-Luns

Catrike Rider

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May 1, 2023, 7:18:43 AM5/1/23

Jeff Liebermann

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May 1, 2023, 3:03:12 PM5/1/23

to

On Mon, 1 May 2023 06:05:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Luns, they are electrically insulated tips but the AC soldering iron
>is not insulated from the AC field around it.

One does not "insulate" something from an electromagnetic field (EMF).
I can cover a wire with your favorite insulation and the field
strength will be unchanged. Perhaps "isolate" would be a better
choice.

>As a rule this field is not a problem after a board is completed
>because all of the circuits are completed.

Amazing. I've never seen an "incomplete" circuit on the PCB. Could
you provide an example or photo of such an incomplete circuit?

>But when you're installing a 1/32 W resister in a field that
>can induce an eighth of a watt, you can have trouble so you don't
>do it.

I don't know where to start with that nonsense. Maybe I'll understand
what you're trying to say after you provide a numerical example.
Incidentally, 1/32 watt resistors do exist, but they're usually
referred to as 30 milliwatt.

>Surface mount IC's are far more sensitive than non-active components.

More sensitive to what? Induced current from an EMF field? You seem
to be ignoring heat sinks and shielding, but in general, semiconductor
junctions will burn out first.

If you're worried about the "field" from the 50/60Hz soldering iron
blowing up SMD parts, I suggest you consider the common nichrome wire
electric heater.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=portable+electric+heater&tbm=isch>
These have 120VAC across all the exposed coils of wire, creating a
much larger field than any puny AC soldering iron. The 240VAC variety
have an even larger field. I can operate all kinds of electronic
devices, some with SMD components, near these devices, without
destroying anything from induced currents. Same with toaster ovens.
So, why are there no warning stickers on such heaters and toasters to
discourage users from coming too close with their devices (such as
smartphones, tablets, and laptops)? I just turned waved my smartphone
in front of my bathroom heater. The phone still works normally.

>Small AC motors are cheaper and more powerful to build which
>would make them ideal for pick and place machines. But instead
>they use DC stepping motors to avoid the chance of damage.

Ah, topic drift from components to motion control. This has what to
do with an AC soldering iron blowing up SMD parts?

Stepper motors are able to hold their position (holding torque) with
very little applied power. Servo motors require more holding power.
Servos are more accurate than steppers. Servos can generate far more
torque than steppers. Torque is a problem for pick and plop machines
because of the weight of the moving parts on larger machines. In
general, the smaller machines use stepper motors, while the larger
machines use servos.

"Servo Motor vs Stepper Motor: Understanding the Differences"
"https://control.com/technical-articles/servo-motor-vs-stepper-motor-understanding-the-differences/"
"Servo motors work well in pick-and-place applications because of
their speed and accuracy."

William Crowell

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May 2, 2023, 9:53:31 AM5/2/23

to

The father of a childhood friend of mine was electrocuted in a similar fashion. Litigation resulted over whether, as Mr. Branzel's widow claimed, the city was negligent for locating the model airplane flying field next to power lines (this was back when the courts required more of a showing of negligence than they do today). The court of appeals eventually held that the city was indeed negligent, for a wrongful death judgment of ~ $41,000:

https://casetext.com/case/branzel-v-city-of-concord

My friend told me that his father's feet were largely burned off in the accident. Since the control wires for those old model airplanes was about 18 gauge, I was surprised that such a small wire could carry enough current to do that. But of course there were two control wires.

Roger Meriman

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May 3, 2023, 8:05:26 AM5/3/23

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Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2023 23:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Luns Tee <lu...@berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 8:46:30?AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Only the stupid 5 would believe that 5 or 2.5 volt parts would happily
>>> be exposed to AC without damage.
>>
>> Birds regularly perch themselves on high voltage transmission lines
>> carrying tens or even hundreds of kilovolts without damage.
>
> Sometimes, Linemen actually attach themselves to high voltage
> transmission lines to work on them.

Yup see them do that on the big pylons and so on.

>
>> More importantly, the tip of a soldering iron is electrically isolated
>> from whatever is powering it just the same as the plate of a clothes
>> iron is. I've done plenty of soldering with a 35W pencil iron whose
>> heating element was literally a resistive wire in a ceramic body with an
>> e12 lamp base. Resistance between the tip and either terminal of the
>> two-prong plug was on the order of megaohms.
>>
>> -Luns
>
>
>

Roger Merriman

Jeff Liebermann

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May 3, 2023, 9:06:17 PM5/3/23

to

On Tue, 2 May 2023 06:53:29 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The father of a childhood friend of mine was electrocuted in a similar fashion. Litigation resulted over whether, as Mr. Branzel's widow claimed, the city was negligent for locating the model airplane flying field next to power lines (this was back when the courts required more of a showing of negligence than they do today). The court of appeals eventually held that the city was indeed negligent, for a wrongful death judgment of ~ $41,000:
>
>https://casetext.com/case/branzel-v-city-of-concord
>
>My friend told me that his father's feet were largely burned off in the accident. Since the control wires for those old model airplanes was about 18 gauge, I was surprised that such a small wire could carry enough current to do that. But of course there were two control wires.

<https://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm>
For "iron" wire, #18 AWG fuses at 25 amps. If both wires were
involved, 50 amps. That may not seem like much, but the energy
transferred depends on how long the current was maintained. I'll
arbitrarily give him 2 seconds before the wire fused open.

I don't know the voltage of the local power line. The article
mentions "high voltage power lines" which could be anything between
120VAC and 200,000VAC. In the US, power lines and drops from the
transformers on the pole to the users are 120VAC. If the control
wires hit a distribution line, which can be 4, 12 or 16KV, the energy
delivered will be much higher. A sub-transmission line, even higher.

Energy = 120V * 50A * 2sec = 12,000 watt-seconds = 12KJoules

That's a rather large amount of energy, which could easily perform an
amputation. Such a wire would surely glow red hot. For
entertainment, try wrapping to #18 AWG wires, in a spiral pattern,
around a hot dog. That will probably blow the fuse, so try it with
nichrome wire, which has a higher resistance and therefore lower
current. If you pull on the hot dog after the wire warms up, the wire
will easily cut into the hot dog. Unlike pushing 2 nails into the hot
dog, which will cook the hot dog, the hot wire will cut through the
hot dog.

AMuzi

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May 3, 2023, 9:29:07 PM5/3/23

to

Nice demonstration!

One of our employees preferred bending up the wire ends of a
spiral notebook and jamming both into a 120V outlet.

Tom Kunich

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May 4, 2023, 10:22:59 AM5/4/23

to

That sounds pretty odd to me, when we flew U-control models we used nylon string for the control "wires" and not actual metal wires.

AMuzi

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May 4, 2023, 11:00:47 AM5/4/23

to

On 5/4/2023 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

> That sounds pretty odd to me, when we flew U-control models we used nylon string for the control "wires" and not actual metal wires.
>

I only briefly flew a wire-control airplane before
abandoning the thing for Estes rockets but yes, mono fishing
line not wire (about 1962/63 or so).

John B.

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May 5, 2023, 9:14:26 PM5/5/23

to

On Fri, 5 May 2023 09:43:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Because, Dummy! Mr. Muzi referred to the actual airplane, that the
model was a copy of, being used as an artillery spotter in Vietnam.
It's right there a few lines above this.

You really aren't too bright, are you Tommy?

--
Cheers,

John B.

Tim R

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May 6, 2023, 11:05:45 AM5/6/23

to

On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 9:06:17 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> For "iron" wire, #18 AWG fuses at 25 amps. If both wires were
> involved, 50 amps. That may not seem like much, but the energy
> transferred depends on how long the current was maintained. I'll
> arbitrarily give him 2 seconds before the wire fused open.
>

Thinking out loud, exposing ignorance, but any chance there can be more current than the wire alone can transmit? If the wire vaporizes and supports an arc? Power lines where I worked were 115kV coming into the substation.

>One of our employees preferred bending up the wire ends of a
>spiral notebook and jamming both into a 120V outlet.

Kids did something similar on a hospital unit I worked at. They weren't allowed matches for obvious reasons (psychiatric unit) and to light a cigaret they would put a paper clip through a rubber eraser into an outlet.

Tom Kunich

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May 6, 2023, 12:01:02 PM5/6/23

to

Was there a resulting sonic boom?

Jeff Liebermann

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May 10, 2023, 12:23:13 AM5/10/23

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On Tue, 09 May 2023 18:36:34 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 5/9/2023 6:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 May 2023 07:16:44 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>> <retrog...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Getting back to soldering, have you ever noticed how the
>>> British and the Aussies always pronounce the "L" in
>>> the word "solder", while Americans do not? That's because
>>> in Britain and Australia the word "sodder" means a man
>>> who engages in homosexual anal intercourse.
>>
>> Good observation. I pronounce it "sodder". From 1981 to 1983, I
>> worked for a US company that was originally from the UK (Granger
>> Assoc). I had some difficulties with the language differences between
>> the US and various parts of the empire. However, the pronunciation of
>> "solder" was never an issue. Both pronunciations were probably in
>> use, but I never noticed.
>>
>> I'll try to emphasize the "L" so that there's mistake.

Oops. That should read "so that there's no mistake".
Brain going faster than my typing problem again.

>> Hmmm....
>> <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sodder>
>> "from england, means fucker, also see sod off"
>>
>> Soddering:
>> "An incorrect term for 'soldering', usually used by idiots, or people
>> with 'labtop' computers."
>>
>> How do the British pronounce "soldier"? I tend to pronounce it
>> "sold-der", which is probably wrong.

>"Squaddie" (as opposed to 'Swabbie")

Thanks. Looking those up, "squaddie" is "a soldier of the lowest rank
in the army" while "swabbie" is a "member of the navy, typically one
who is of low rank". Ok, a low ranking soldier or sailor. Those are
not really changes in pronunciation, but rather slang terms for
various types of soldiers. I was looking for an alternative
pronunciation like in the two ways to pronounce "solder". Since
"soldier" is a rather similar word, I was wondering if the same
pronunciation change also applied.

John B.

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May 10, 2023, 2:09:21 AM5/10/23

to

On Tue, 09 May 2023 21:23:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

A "Squadde" originally meant the member of a squad - an army company
is made up of several "squads" - so the term makes sense. And yes,
squadies are, one might say, common soldiers, not officers or
Sergeants who were typically squad leaders. This make up goes back to
at least the Roman Legions.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Tim R

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May 10, 2023, 10:09:49 AM5/10/23

to

On Saturday, May 6, 2023 at 1:25:53 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 6 May 2023 08:05:43 -0700 (PDT), Tim R
> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 9:06:17?PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> For "iron" wire, #18 AWG fuses at 25 amps. If both wires were
> >> involved, 50 amps. That may not seem like much, but the energy
> >> transferred depends on how long the current was maintained. I'll
> >> arbitrarily give him 2 seconds before the wire fused open.
> >
> >Thinking out loud, exposing ignorance, but any chance there can be more current than the wire alone can transmit? If the wire vaporizes and supports an arc? Power lines where I worked were 115kV coming into the substation.
> Yes, there's a chance. However, I would need to know the power line
> voltage in order to make a guess. At higher voltages, there are all

I was watching a repair at work on a cloudy day. The lineman used a hot stick to open a circuit, and I could see an arc about two feet long, like a mini lightning bolt, at the switch. The voltage at that location was probably 13.5kV but possibly 8.8kV, we used both at parts of the campus. They yank really hard to open those switches fast, I suppose to avoid the arc, but the arc followed the switch to its 180 degree open position, of course with some curve. On a bright day I don't think I could have seen it but it was gloomy out and it stood out.

AMuzi

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May 10, 2023, 10:21:15 AM5/10/23

to

On 5/10/2023 9:09 AM, Tim R wrote:

Yikes!

I'll stick to changing tires, thanks.

Frank Krygowski

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May 10, 2023, 11:27:34 AM5/10/23

to

When I worked as a Plant Engineer, we had an in-plant fatality. I was in
a committee meeting when it was discussed. Apparently an electrician was
attempting to measure some extremely high voltage, far beyond the range
of the voltmeter he was using. It arced and killed him. They were
astonished at his mistake, and said given the mistake, there was no
safety device capable of preventing the death.

I'm fine up to 240V. No higher, please.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Radey Shouman

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May 10, 2023, 4:32:31 PM5/10/23

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May 11, 2023, 8:51:33 AM5/11/23

to

IIRC the rules change at 600V.

I was also a plant engineer for a while. We never had an in-plant fatality while I was there but the larger corporation did. The corporation was wary of two things: machinery closing on someone - so Zero Energy State (lockout tagout) was strictly enforced with firing on first offense, and arc flash, particularly in the humid south where apparently it is accompanied by steam explosion. We always pulled the disconnects with the nondominant arm, figuring we'd save the one we needed most.