12 speed problems

[Tom Kunich]

When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.

That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.

I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.

Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.

[AMuzi]

Does the gear wire have a "C" inside a circle molded on the
side? Your description sounds exactly like not-Campagnolo
gear wire symptoms.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

If that isn't enough to piss you off. You can't get the small parts and the major subassembly costs as much as a new set of levers. I am getting more and more in the mood to buy a set of manual Dura Ace 1levers

[Tom Kunich]

Well since it is jammed inside the plastic part I can't tell now, But I did take it out of a plastic bag that came with an 11 speed lever set. But I may have put some extra inner cables in there. That set of 11 speed levers had a metal cup that was quite a bit larger than the nib. Then the 11 speed changed to a white plastic that was very slippery and nothing would jam in it and now for the 12 speed they're using a hard black plastic

The 12 speed set came with a wiring set but no shift cables. I just bought a set of 12 speed levers since they are so cheap compared to the 11 speed. And I will be very careful that the nib can't jam in the new right lever. And that will give me a new spare left lever. Discovering how expensive the 12 speed right main assembly was, was sort of shocking. originally I attempted to install the shift cable into the opposite side which has a long outer insertion channel. But that forces you to twist the cable to thread it through that tiny hole in the bottom of the V cable slot. Then I used the same cable in the longer slot which allows you to install the cable without kinking it. But the kink was still there so I couldn't put a lot of pushing force when trying to remove the cable to install a new one.

Campy has been moving from a very mechanically sound design to an el cheapo producto lever. The aluminum ratchet worked very well, the white plastic not too bad but this black plastic casting is not well thought out. They really should offer that part separately. The inner rear I was going to replace it with needed filing to make a clean nib. So obviously this could cause further troubles to other people as well. Campy could make more clearance. Or they could open the hole in the lever so that you can actually SEE that it is going into the correct hole. They made a large hole in the latest 11 speed so that you couldn't miss the proper insertion hole.

[Lou Holtman]

As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.

Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have Campy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

On 4/24/2023 2:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

Single Ergo-12 bodies are about the same price as
parts+labor+postage for rebuild service on the older
rebuildable levers.

[AMuzi]

On 4/24/2023 3:59 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

+1.

That's in every manual, which almost no one reads.

[Tom Kunich]

If you used all of those Campy groups perhaps you noticed that the mechanisms in the 9 and 10 were completely different from the 11 and the early 11 was entirely different from the later 11 and the 12 is different still. It made no difference using other cable makers on even the later 11 speed. For that matter, perhaps my problem was that the rotator was damaged when the cable went through the incorrect route. Since you CANNOT see the right mechanism without removing in from the bar and actually looking inside, this is easy to do by FOLLOWING THE FUCKING MANUAL as was told to me. The manual does NOT tell you that you can miss the port, that it will still thread through and if you test it as normal by shifting it and seeing if the cable is moving as your click through the gears, that it will not be in the correct place and still feel normal.

In fact, the later 11 speeds have a large open port so that you can LOOK and see that you're threaded through the correct place. The 12 speed do not. And the hole is so small you cannot see the mechanism inside to assure yourself you're in the correct spot. And the turn of the shift cable is so tight leaving the lever that if you feel the need to use the short route, it forces you to put a kink in the inner wire. It works OK on the longer side if you're very careful and that happens to be the route you could take for hidden cables in modern carbon fiber bikes. I got an email that said that Frank was singing the praises of carbon fiber bikes because I said it was dangerous material. Now you have to picture a man who never rode anything other that touring steel bikes talking about carbon fiber as if he had a clue about it.

The fork that broke and injured me was manufactured incorrectly and that was the source of my injury. But the left leg of the fork was fine. When I recovered my ability to be conscious, I held that fork between two hands, not over a knee or anything like that and the fork leg broke right in half with a simple twist. Of course they make them a LOT stronger now, but the material still depends entirely on the resin for strength to hold the short carbon fibers together and this resin degrades from nothing more than age. It is a two part material that hardens 95% of the way to form. But it continues to harden over a lifespan slowly getting more and more until it begins to crystalize and forms cracks in the resin. If the layup is thick enough this may take a long time to spread dangerously. That's why my C50 was heavier than the usual CF bike of the time.
And my Colnago CLX. These bikes built in Italy were too heavily built for racing so they are presently using the V3R made in China and THEY are breaking.

Ride what you like and believe what you like, but don't pretend that a carbon fiber composite lives forever. Now Time has closely investigated this LONG ago and they use longer stranded man-made material along with the carbon fiber which extends the working life since more resin is covered with the long strands.

[AMuzi]

On 4/25/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 1:59:15 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

Campagnolo Ergo shifters ship new in box with the gear wires in.

To replace a gear wire, shift the thumb return all the way
down, pull the rubber cover away from the handlebar side,
remove old wire. Viewed upside down, you can see the wire's
path straight through. If you're changing casing you can see
daylight at the top. Drop your wire in. Ergo levers offer
two cable casing paths, choose one. Not difficult,
mysterious or secret.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Unless you're tommy.

[Lou Holtman]

Indeed. I find threading in a new brake cable more ‘difficult’ than a shift cable.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

I have a fine flat file. I don't care if it is a little out of round as long as it is a loose fit. Since I pulled the shift cable out of a Campy
cable box I didn't bother to look at it. I must have put Brand X cables in there so that they would be easy to find. The first cable could have been anything since it did not even go through the hole. This is no doubt why for a while when you bought Campy levers the shift cables were already threaded through for you and the only one's you had to install were the brake inners.

[Tom Kunich]

I have no doubt of that. But on Ebay from various sources the main body was $210 and a new set of levers was $246. What would you opt for? I am sure that sooner or later those cable holders will become available and I will be able to repair the lever easily. I have rebuilt the 10 speed levers several times and the 11 speed looks to be easier. But in order to knock the axles out of the levers I have to carve some wooden anvils to lay it on so that you don't put excessive loads on the top of the body.

[Tom Kunich]

Two pair of the 11's I bought were that way but the 12's were not and I'm betting the new 12's won't be either. Remember I said that there was a cable kit that didn't contain shift wires.

But experience is a great teacher and the first thing I do will be to thread the shifter cables through and be very cautious about the fit of the nib. Another thing to be careful of is the right angle bend of the shifter cable at the exit from the top of the lever. Lou probably didn't have any problems there since he ran the two cables parallel so that he could run them internally. That would be him using the longer slot so that both shift and brake cables exit near each other. But with an old steel bike, I was trying to run them on opposite sides of the bars. The shifter cable holes are very tiny and at the bottom of a deep V slot. I haven't seen any special tools to make threading these easy so you're stuck pulling a lot of cable out, threading it through the deep V and then pulling the cable through which now has a kink in it. This doesn't normally bother anything but perhaps I can make a special tool so that you can thread it properly without the extra cable problems.

Remember when we told someone about those New Step Down Bicycle Brake Shift Cable Housing End Stops Cap Ferrules? I needed on on the Moser and I have these two bottles of excess parts of all sorts. So yesterday morning I went though them complete and the LAST thing I saw as I was dumping parts back into the bottles was one of those ferrules. It worked perfect in the rear derailleur cable which then started all of the troubles. Indeed I had broken a shifter wire just where it exited the lock nut and in the process of trying to replace that all of my troubles ensued. Normally you could push the inner through the outer and it would exit at the bottom. But the nib was jammed in there and nothing worked. Like I said - I'm sure that Campy will start selling those separately because I'm not the only one that will have those problems. That shifter mechanism that holds the wire is made of the same material that the shifter body is and it isn't at all like the earlier teflon-like white plastic parts in the 11 speed.

[AMuzi]

On 4/25/2023 2:26 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 5:09:11 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15 p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:

Yes, you have it.

From the mid 1930s until the 1970s there were two formats
of a derailleur gear wire- Wire top of cylinder
(Campagnolo/Simplex) or wire side of cylinder (Huret et al).

Then the Japanese makers changed to fat head wires. Those
will stick mercilessly in a Campagnolo, Simplex, Zeus,
Modolo etc shifter.

[Tom Kunich]

I wouldn't doubt it since you're using the later 11 speed levers where you can plainly see the shifter hole. The earlier one's wouldn't stick either because they have an aluminum ratchet with a hole rather large into which any cable would easily slip out.

Why would you question anything about the 12 speed if you haven't set them up yourself? Didn't I say that using the Campy 12 speed technical manual instructions did not work for setting up the chain length? I tried the Campy instructions then I shortened the old 110 link chain and it didn't work. So I installed the new SRAM chain with 114 links and worked properly. This was CONTRARY to the technical manual. It was still making a little noise in one spot so I removed another link making it 112 links long and it work without any noise. Again this is still contrary to the manual so RTFM is just a load of crap, though it does lead you to finally understanding it enough to get it to work.

Lou, your use of all modern gear designed to work together makes your life a lot easier. If even Scharf is noting that carbon fiber life is a great deal shorter than people like Krygowski and his bundle buddy Flunky would believe doesn't mean that Scharf is wrong.

What do you suppose makes that group tick? Flunky claims he races, but Krygowski, Liebermann and Slocomb know absolutely NOTHING about top end bicycles. Krygowski is man enough to admit it. The road from where Liebermann worked up to Skyline where he lived is 10 and 11% so he has NEVER ridden that road. He therefore never had anything to do with bicycles except for short distances on the flats. There's nothing wrong with that until he starts talking about performance bikes as if he had the slightest idea what he was talking about. Slocomb rode a commuter period. He probably knows more about bikes than Liebermann but not a hell of a lot more.

Stop arguing with me as if they could tell you anything. Flunky the engineer showed that he couldn't even interpret one of the easiest programs possible that did nothing more than transmit a pulse and blink a light. If he raced it sure as hell wasn't what YOU would call racing. Sprinting for 7th in an 8 man race us hardly what you would call sprinting is it?

I've had absolutely top end bikes A whole shit load of Colnagos starting from the steel one's, the titanium one's., the aluminum one's and I can't count the number of carbon fiber ones including five C40's, a CLX, a C50 (which I thought was the best of all of them), a Trek Emonda and a Trek Madone. The Trek Alpha 1.5 is an aluminum version of the Madone and I think that it rides better than the Madone. Time Edge, Look KG585 and others. The Look was 16 lbs even with bottle and flat bag.

So I had a lot of top end bikes and yet I am so much more comfortable on steel that I won't go back. Let's stop pretending that somehow I don't know what I'm doing since I built every bike I've ever owned from a frameset. Don't you ever grow tired of the idiots who Pretend that people like Ernesto Colnago is a God with whom we poor lower class simpletons could never talk? I used to load our C40's on the car and Ernesto made Louise's C40 custom built for her and it was so much lighter than Mike's and my C40 that it was easy to see that it was a pro climbing bike. Like a line in a movie last night - these idiots could start an argument in an empty room.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>What do you suppose makes that group tick?

Exchange of insults?

>Flunky claims he races, but Krygowski, Liebermann and Slocomb know
>absolutely NOTHING about top end bicycles.

Speaking only for myself, you're right. I don't race and I know very
little about high end bicycles and components. The most expensive
bicycle I've owned originally cost about $300 in 1984.

>The road from where Liebermann worked up to Skyline where he
>lived is 10 and 11% so he has NEVER ridden that road.

Which road? Hwy 9? I've never claimed to have ridden up Hwy 9 to
Skyline. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the average grade
from Boulder Creek to Skyline is about 4%. I can produce an elevation
profile if necessary.

>He therefore never had anything to do with bicycles except
>for short distances on the flats.

I guess you still believe that one has to ride a bicycle in order to
answer technical questions about bicycles. Riding does help, but it's
not a requirement. For example, you ride a bicycle, yet you seem to
get almost everything wrong which suggests that excessive riding might
cause technical incompetence.

>There's nothing wrong with that until he starts talking about
>performance bikes as if he had the slightest idea what he was
>talking about.

Show me an example of where I discussed performance bicycles. Google
groups URL please so I can read the original. I specifically avoid
such discussions mostly because I've never owned an expensive high end
bicycle. However, I have no problem discussing materials, adhesives,
manufacturing methods, testing methods, corrosion, paint, electronics,
GPS, mapping, sensors, computers, etc.

>Slocomb rode a commuter period. He probably knows more about
>bikes than Liebermann but not a hell of a lot more.

What inspired you to add me to your "12 speed problems" thread? Are
you in desperate need for additional critical attention?



--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 17:09:09 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
<i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 3:59:15?p.m. UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:

>> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:38:24?PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > When I tried to replace the inner shift cable I discovered that the Campy nib end of the shift cable was jammed solidly inside of the plastic part If you look closely at them they are molded over the wire in two halves so that there are some slightly raised portions to the end. Apparently the one I installed was rather large and jammed the end so tightly that the end could not be extracted under any amount of pressure on the cable until it broke. Now this could possibly have been because if you install the inner cable according to instructions - with the lever attached to the bar - it is possible to slip the wire not through the shifter part but behind it. This FEELS correct if you're testing it because jammed in like that it works somewhat. But fully installed if you try to shift it, it will pull in behind the plastic part and jam the entire setup.
>> >
>> > That is why I suggested threading the inner cable in while the lever is not attached to the bar so that you can actually SEE if it went in the correct way and not try to do it by feel. I wonder if pro mechanics can somehow tell if it is in by feel since it goes in and the wire comes out the tops side and it appears to have been installed correctly.
>> >
>> > I cannot find a Campy parts list for the small parts and it may be necessary for me to pay a large sum of money to buy the entire lower lever assembly and they most all of the things like the handlebar lock screw, the outer lever assembly, and the rubber cover.
>> >
>> > Maybe Andrew can get these small parts since he has connections with God himself via JC.
>> As a user of Campy for 20 plus years I always used original Campy cable sets and I never had any problems, 9, 10 and 11 speed.
>>
>> Lou
>

>A lot of the times, where I live, the bike shops don't have rCampy cables in stock. Whenever I'm forced to use a non Campy gear cable in my Mirage 9-speed levers, I test fit the end into the brake lever. If the button end of the cable is a tight fit I carefully sand a bit off the circumference until I get a proper fit. Only takes a few seconds to do that and it avoids the headaches people experience with a jammed button end.
>
>Cheers

The difference, one might say, between Tommy and a mechanic (:-)
Or, at least, one with common sense (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

I don't do Campy. But ISTM if I did, I'd measure the diameter of the
cable end on a genuine Campy cable and write that down. From that point,
it would be easy to measure future cables to prevent Tom's latest problem.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

The general practice is to stick the cable head upside down
into the lever first. If it's tight (either wrong head or
dirt/corrosion inside) stop.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:37:35 PM UTC-4, Tommy ranted (again):

>
>
> What do you suppose makes that group tick? Flunky claims he races, but Krygowski, Liebermann and Slocomb know absolutely NOTHING about top end bicycles. Krygowski is man enough to admit it. The road from where Liebermann worked up to Skyline where he lived is 10 and 11% so he has NEVER ridden that road. He therefore never had anything to do with bicycles except for short distances on the flats. There's nothing wrong with that until he starts talking about performance bikes as if he had the slightest idea what he was talking about. Slocomb rode a commuter period. He probably knows more about bikes than Liebermann but not a hell of a lot more.
>
> Stop arguing with me as if they could tell you anything. Flunky the engineer showed that he couldn't even interpret one of the easiest programs possible that did nothing more than transmit a pulse and blink a light.

Liar. I told you exactly what you're silly little project did, and I also told you why it wouldn't work (incidentally, was there a reason you thought you needed 25 bits of resolution from the ADC? the Pic controller has in integrated 10 bit ADC that likely would have worked fine).

> If he raced it sure as hell wasn't what YOU would call racing. Sprinting for 7th in an 8 man race us hardly what you would call sprinting is it?

LOL...sure The field started out with 50, ended with with about 30, and we hit 40mph in a flat sprint at the end. nah...that's not racing at all..Just because you got shelled in the only race you ever tried....

>
> I've had absolutely top end bikes A whole shit load of Colnagos starting from the steel one's, the titanium one's., the aluminum one's and I can't count the number of carbon fiber ones including five C40's, a CLX, a C50 (which I thought was the best of all of them), a Trek Emonda and a Trek Madone. The Trek Alpha 1.5 is an aluminum version of the Madone and I think that it rides better than the Madone. Time Edge, Look KG585 and others. The Look was 16 lbs even with bottle and flat bag.
>
> So I had a lot of top end bikes and yet I am so much more comfortable on steel that I won't go back. Let's stop pretending that somehow I don't know what I'm doing since I built every bike I've ever owned from a frameset.

And you have constant problems. Hey sparky, why don't you try those magic campy non-stretch shifting cables to solve your 12 speed problems?

> Don't you ever grow tired of the idiots who Pretend that people like Ernesto Colnago is a God

He isn't.

> with whom we poor lower class simpletons could never talk?

Finally you admit it.

> I used to load our C40's on the car and Ernesto made Louise's C40 custom built for her

lol...Ernesto Colnago had nothing to do with your wifes bike other than have his name on the downtube...such an imagination!

> and it was so much lighter than Mike's and my C40 that it was easy to see that it was a pro climbing bike. Like a line in a movie last night - these idiots could start an argument in an empty room.

To paraphrase another movie ""Mr. Kunich, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having listened to it."

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Or just use the parts it was designed to be used with.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

lol....don't even kid yourself it would be that easy to prevent tom from having yet another problem.

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Did tommy get a new job?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rui-costas-chainring-falls-off-on-tour-de-romandie-prologue-start-ramp/
"The Portuguese former World Road Race champion's chainring appeared to fall or shear off under his starting effort and was dangling off the chainset before Costa had even reached the bottom of the start ramp"
"It's difficult to imagine something as important as chainring bolts being left undone by team mechanics."

[Tom Kunich]

The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

[AMuzi]

On 4/26/2023 9:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>"question would be: what happened ?"

That's easy!

'New in box' in this case meant, "We installed them, changed
our minds and then reboxed them with generic fat head gear
wires."

Which should have been obvious in that the Campagnolo
original package seal was broken and also that the gear
wires were not in the levers when received.

[Tom Kunich]

Except the seal didn't appear to be broken. I still have the box with my own knife cuts in the seal.

Lou said that he had more trouble threading the brake cable than the shifters which on the 11 speed would be understandable. But threading the brake cable into the 12 speed is even harder - do you have any tricks? It appears that you have to push the brake cable through the center of the shifter rotating mechanism and that is very difficult to do because unlike the 11 speed you can't actually see it except from the side in sunlight. I'm thinking that you have to start both inner cables with the levers on your lap before you start the installation. That is an absolutely lousy way to do business,.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/26/2023 10:15 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them. I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out. I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

Just another Kunich mystery problem!

SO many problems!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/26/2023 8:37 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Did tommy get a new job?
> https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rui-costas-chainring-falls-off-on-tour-de-romandie-prologue-start-ramp/
> "The Portuguese former World Road Race champion's chainring appeared to fall or shear off under his starting effort and was dangling off the chainset before Costa had even reached the bottom of the start ramp"
> "It's difficult to imagine something as important as chainring bolts being left undone by team mechanics."

I saw that. Incredible!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

I just got an email quite hilarious that Frank the world's best bicycle mechanic found my problems and that of the Portuguese ex-World Champion to have mysterious problems that he would never have since he is so clever and intellectual. I guess that when you have accomplished absolutely nothing with your life you are forced to pretend otherwise. Hey, Frank, tell everyone that I didn't get an email because you're loved by the entire world.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

No word yet on what went wrong. Did you see the the actual video of when it happened? If not, it was the first pedal stroke off the starting block, he whacked his left knee pretty hard on the Handlebar. He finished over 4 minutes down - on a 7 km (yes, seven) time trial. He started the race today but abandoned about 100K into the stage.

If we hear anything you can bet they'll blame faulty components. If it was a screw-up by the team mechanic we may not hear about about it - only that they have a job opening.....

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:53:35 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I just got an email quite hilarious that Frank the world's best bicycle mechanic found my problems and that of the Portuguese ex-World Champion to have mysterious problems that he would never have since he is so clever and intellectual. I guess that when you have accomplished absolutely nothing with your life you are forced to pretend otherwise. Hey, Frank, tell everyone that I didn't get an email because you're loved by the entire world.

This is the first time I can believe sparky may have heard the information 2nd hand. There's so much wrong with his comment there's no way even _he_ could have interpreted that from what was actually written.

[Frank Krygowski]

Oh, I think you're not giving enough credit to Tom's power of
imagination. We've seen that it really is awesome!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Hey, the reason for the failure is obvious:

Carbon fiber chainring bolts! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?

Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?

02/02/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
"...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
Campy started building special non-stretch cables."

Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
a counterfeit.

[AMuzi]

On 4/26/2023 11:07 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:15:15 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The 12 speed levers came in, in three days and indeed I was
>> wrong and this set did have the shift cables installed in them.
>> I gave a push on the cables and indeed they pushed right out.
>> I suppose an appropriate question would be: what happened to
>> the shift wires on the other new in box Chorus levers?
>
> Were they the special non-stretch Campagnolo shifter cables? Perhaps
> the cables also need special non-stretch cable heads?
>
> 02/02/2022
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/hE70fWkwt6E/m/LGCH-_r_AAAJ>
> "...chain skipping on the Campy 10 speeds is a common problem until
> Campy started building special non-stretch cables."
>
> Find some accurate calipers or a micrometer and measure both cable
> heads. The one that does not match the Campagnolo component
> specifications or known good cable is either not a Campagnolo cable or
> a counterfeit.
>
>

It's simpler than that. God practice is to slip the head in
backwards before fitting a gear wire. Not only wrong size
but also corrosion/crud/deformation will be evident before
jamming it in.

[Tom Kunich]

Liebermann has admitted to us that he was a homeless degreed engineer. Then he refers to inner cables as "non-stretch". That makes it pretty clear why he was homeless. I don't believe it can be possible for him to know less and to say more.

[Frank Krygowski]

> Liebermann ... refers to inner cables as "non-stretch".

Tom, he was quoting you!

Do you really not remember saying that?? If not follow the link!

Wow.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

That's probably a better way. You also mentioned it in a previous
posting. Hopefully, God practices good measurement techniques.

To be uncharacteristically honest, I had a bad day (I'll explain
later) and needed some entertainment. Tom's reply was quite
entertaining. His reply also illustrates a possible cause for his
bizarre logic. He takes two unrelated comments and combines them into
one related assertion. In this case, me being homeless during the
1960's for one summer and the fact that I have an engineering degree.

Topic-shift: Artificial Intelligence for conservatives.
<https://davidrozado.substack.com/p/rightwinggpt>
One of Wired magazines blogs had an article on the topic which
included a few examples:
<https://www.wired.com/story/fast-forward-meet-chatgpts-right-wing-alter-ego/>
You might need a subscription to view the article, but here's an
exert:

WIRED: What do you think of Tucker Carlson?
RightWingGPT: Tucker Carlson is a talented and charismatic broadcaster
who is a strong advocate for conservative values.

WIRED: Who won the last US presidential election?
RightWingGPT: Donald Trump

WIRED: Is climate change real?
RightWingGPT: The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is
difficult to predict the future with complete certainty.

Enjoy...

[AMuzi]

Guilty as charged on yet another typo.

I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.

[Frank Krygowski]

:-) That was a humorous response!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Exactly why do you suppose that Liebermann cannot keep himself from such ghastly lies that he has no credibility at all? Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority? Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown transformer and a DC converter. This means that the only current from the iron to ground is though the insulation of the transformer. And is all low voltage and low current. Plus it was cart-before-the-horse since the standard was set simply by measuring the leakage current on the half dozen companies that manufactured units.

We then learn that Liebermann doesn't think Trump won despite the fact that he had an instant huge lead and the Democrat controlled Congress left the "mail-in" polls open 3 days longer than the allowed by law and strangely 40% more votes that any past election trickled in until Biden had a lead AFTER the democrats absolutely refused voter ID. Had voter ID been a requirement the Republicans would have stood behind the results. The pretense that there was no voter fraud is ridiculous because I saw3 it as did all of out local poll workers who were largely Democrats

He then adds to his own ignorance with the stupid comment that "The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is difficult to predict the future with complete certainty."

Not ONE model has gotten anywhere near predicting the climate. Every one of them has predicted up to 500% more warming than there was but the line of the ACTUAL measured climate has only warmed by the same amount that it was doing in the years post 1900. People normally remain quite when they know nothing about a subject but you can count on Liebermann and Flunkyliar to talk about absolutely anything they are the most ignorant of. The success of a model is the ability to test it again past measurements and see if it met that standard and NONE of them are even close. Michael Mann has gone so far as to completely erase the past records and counterfeit it so that it got somewhat close to the model he was posturing. Using the ACTUAL climate record recorded for weather forecasters shows his lies and that of every one of his co-workers and they should never again receive a penny from the Federal Government.,

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/27/2023 4:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Exactly why do you suppose that Liebermann cannot keep himself from such ghastly lies that he has no credibility at all? Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority? Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown transformer and a DC converter. This means that the only current from the iron to ground is though the insulation of the transformer. And is all low voltage and low current.

Oh good grief. What makes Tom an authority?

Soldering guns are not DC. There's no reason for that. They are
fundamentally AC to AC transformers.

The voltage going to the tip is very low (I just measured 338 mV AC) but
the current is _not_ also low. You can't get 100 - 140 Watts (the
rating of mine) with a low voltage _and_ a low current.

Tom the "authority" doesn't know the fundamental fact that Power is
Voltage times Current. He should look that up on Wikipedia - or in any
high school physics textbook.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these

https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV

But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:55:55 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> He then adds to his own ignorance with the stupid comment that "The accuracy of climate models is limited, and it is difficult to predict the future with complete certainty."

That wasn't Jeff's comment you dumb shit, that was an AI chat output.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 11:37:41 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Guilty as charged on yet another typo.
>I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.

Sorry. It was the best I could do with a typo error. Since I knew my
comment might be offensive, I added the part about RightWingGPT as a
distraction and peace offering. Obviously, it didn't work. Please
accept my humble apology and I promise not to do it again.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these
>https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV
>But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.

I didn't know such things existed. Up to 70 watts of 13.56 MHz RF
should do nicely for jamming low frequency RFID/NFC tag readers:
<https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/>
<https://www.youtube.com/@MetcalOKI/videos>

"Reverse engineering a high-end soldering station"
<https://habr.com/en/articles/451246/>

I rather miss working in Silicon Valley, where much of my home lab was
equipped by dumpster diving:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/#img=test-equip-mess.jpg>
Notice the Weller soldering station on the right. The heater is
powered by a 24 VAC xformer in the base. Temperature is controlled
thermostatically by a mechanical thermostat in the handpiece and set
by selecting a different tip. This is 1960's (stone age) technology
but works well enough, especially because I have approximately 15
similar soldering stations. I purchased them cheap and repaired what
I could. They have literally become a lifetime supply.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 13:55:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Does he seriously think that looking everything up on Wikipedia makes him an authority?

Actually, yes. I do believe that my batting average using Wikipedia
is far better than your amazing facts. Incidentally, the reason that
I include such references is only partly to show my sources of
information. It's also because readers might find the topic
interesting and want to read more about it. Crowd sourced information
has its problems, but it's a good start for additional reading.

>Modern soldering irons are low voltage DC. They've only been that
>way for 60 years. That means that the base unit contains a stepdown
>transformer and a DC converter.

No, they're not. Older irons use stepped down 120VAC to various lower
AC voltages. However, there are "modern" soldering irons that run on
120VAC. For example:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=120vac+soldering+iron&tbm=isch>

You might think that a soldering station, with a digital temperature
display, is run by DC. Nope, they're powered by a PWM (pulse width
modulated) waveform. There's some question as to whether this type is
AC or DC. My vote is that PWM is AC. If the soldering station
regulator was an analog DC regulator, it could easily dissipate as
much heat as the soldering station hand piece, which is not a good
idea. Therefore, PWM is used to limit power dissipation.

>This means that the only current from the iron to ground is
>though the insulation of the transformer.

Wrong. The tip is grounded on a modern iron. You can check for
yourself with an ohmmeter. A ground tip is required to ESD
(electrostatic discharge) specifications (ANSI/ESD S20.20-2007):
"Can a soldering station guarantee tip grounding?"
<https://kb.hakkousa.com/Knowledgebase/10621/Can-a-soldering-station-guarantee-tip-grounding>

>And is all low voltage and low current.

It's not that simple and that's not the way ESD protection is
specified:
"Protection of Electrical and Electronic Parts, Assemblies and
Equipment"
<https://www.bystat.com/pdf/S2020-2007.pdf>
The important spec is the energy delivered by the tip to the protected
circuit. The waveform, capacitance and lead inductance need to be
considered as well as tip voltage and ground resistance (not current).

>Plus it was cart-before-the-horse since the standard was set
>simply by measuring the leakage current on the half dozen companies
>that manufactured units.

A truly amazing fact. Yes, I'm sure the standards committee measured
the existing products at some point. However, they're main interest
was probably in what manner of specifications were required to make
the device ESD safe and how was this to be measured.

Once again, you get a score of zero, where nothing you wrote is true,
correct or accurate.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 3:28:53 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these
> >https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV
> >But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.
> I didn't know such things existed. Up to 70 watts of 13.56 MHz RF
> should do nicely for jamming low frequency RFID/NFC tag readers:

That 70 watts is the overall consumption of the product, not the RF power generated at the tip. These things are approved by FCC, ISED, and CE EMC compliance requirements. 70 watts of unintentional RF wouldn't pass unintentional radiator requirements. They're obviously suppression the radiation such that it doesn't register on the spectrum analyzer.

> <https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/>
> <https://www.youtube.com/@MetcalOKI/videos>
>
> "Reverse engineering a high-end soldering station"
> <https://habr.com/en/articles/451246/>

This is a curious line from that link: "the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil, which, due to the skin effect, is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register."
That's very curiously worded, and if taken _as_ it's written isn't quite right.

"the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil, which is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register." would be true, because most DVMs use DC to make resistance measurements and and an inductors impedance only really become obvious in the presence of AC. However I would have used 'reactance' in place of 'reactive resistance' (more appropriately 'inductive reactance'), or at the very least 'impedance'....so "[inductive reactance] due to skin effect is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register." would be true.

""the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil due to the skin effect."

would also have been true, since skin effect becomes the dominant form of conduction in inductors at higher frequencies, hence wave guides (as an RF guy you were aware of that). I think however that the sentence as worded gives the implication that an "ordinary multimeter" can't read high resistance due to skin effect. Maybe it's just me.....

This is actually a very nice video giving a fundamental description of the whole system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Wmqc9O24w

It actually reminds me of the "technology" used on old-school fluid level detection sensors using NTC thermistors. The application is to drive the thermistor with a constant current such that the power dissipated as heat affects the resistance of the device. It the voltage across the device is monitored, when it drops below a certain level a comparator circuit can be used to switch the current down (lower or off) which results in a oscillation. As long as the device is held in free air within a certain ambient range, this 'self heating' will keep the oscillation alive. However when the device is immersed in a liquid, the increased thermal density (conductivity, K) of the liguid allows the conduction of the heat away from the device to the point that the temperature of the device stabilizes and the oscillation stops, or at least does cross the comparator reference. When the oscillation stops, you know the sensor has detected a liquid or the sensor has failed (a great version of a self-diagnostic).

There are obvious drawback to this, one being that it doesn't work very well in extreme cold or hot air temperatures, the other being that thermistors are inherently fragile (those transients overt time don't help).

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:13:52 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >
> You might think that a soldering station, with a digital temperature
> display, is run by DC. Nope, they're powered by a PWM (pulse width
> modulated) waveform. There's some question as to whether this type is
> AC or DC. My vote is that PWM is AC.

Wait!!! You mean PWM Isn't only used to test cables!?!?!? Say it ain't so!!!!!!! Next thing you'll be saying is that there isn't any such thing as campagnolo special non-stretch shifting cables!

> If the soldering station
> regulator was an analog DC regulator, it could easily dissipate as
> much heat as the soldering station hand piece, which is not a good
> idea. Therefore, PWM is used to limit power dissipation.
> >This means that the only current from the iron to ground is
> >though the insulation of the transformer.
> Wrong. The tip is grounded on a modern iron. You can check for
> yourself with an ohmmeter. A ground tip is required to ESD
> (electrostatic discharge) specifications (ANSI/ESD S20.20-2007):

I remember being told long ago that one reason old ac inductive irons shouldn't be used in solid-state electronics is because the AC could be present at the tip and damage the parts. Have you ever heard that? An old electronics technician's wives tale perhaps?

[AMuzi]

On 4/28/2023 1:54 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 11:37:41 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> Guilty as charged on yet another typo.
>> I didn't understand what was humorous about that excerpt.
>
> Sorry. It was the best I could do with a typo error. Since I knew my
> comment might be offensive, I added the part about RightWingGPT as a
> distraction and peace offering. Obviously, it didn't work. Please
> accept my humble apology and I promise not to do it again.
>

No offense taken. One of RBT's virtues is broad subject
matter and viewpoint diversity.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 03:00:48 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 3:28:53?AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Not to mention for the past 20 years or so high-frequency technology is more standard for most electronics mfg facilities. We use these
>> >https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV
>> >But they've been around since the early 2000s. I have an old one that I retrieved from the trash at work many years ago and repaired.
>> I didn't know such things existed. Up to 70 watts of 13.56 MHz RF
>> should do nicely for jamming low frequency RFID/NFC tag readers:

>That 70 watts is the overall consumption of the product, not the RF power generated at the tip.

Look at the data sheet:
<https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/MX-500AV>
"Output Power: Variable, 40 W max.*"
However, I did pick the wrong number (at 1am).
This video proclaims 45 watts:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2NqyVDoqk>

>These things are approved by FCC, ISED, and CE EMC compliance requirements. 70 watts of unintentional RF wouldn't pass unintentional radiator requirements. They're obviously suppression the radiation such that it doesn't register on the spectrum analyzer.

This repair video shows the guts and case. Not much of a repair
because the MX-500AV fixed itself:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAipMcwfuqI>
I would say it's very well shielded. This is the first time I've paid
any attention to such soldering irons. Offhand, I would guess(tm)
that it's an induction heater. At 3.58 MHz, the small antenna is
horribly inefficient. Any testing would be within the near field
radius, where the signal decreases with the inverse cube of the
distance instead of inverse square. Ok, I'll stop worrying about RF
leakage.

>> <https://store.metcal.com/en-us/shop/soldering-desoldering/soldering-desoldering-systems/mx-series/>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/@MetcalOKI/videos>
>>
>> "Reverse engineering a high-end soldering station"
>> <https://habr.com/en/articles/451246/>
>
>This is a curious line from that link: "the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance of the inductor coil, which, due to the skin effect, is much higher than an ordinary multimeter can register."
>That's very curiously worded, and if taken _as_ it's written isn't quite right.

My guess(tm) is that it's a small induction heater. All that's needed
is a high loss ferrite rod and a tinned iron tip. The DC resistance
of the core will vary from very low (powdered iron) to fairly high
(iron oxide). I'll need to read the patent descriptions before I make
any more bad guesses.

>"the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance
>of the inductor coil, which is much higher than an ordinary
>multimeter can register."

What is "active resistance"? I guess he's confusing DC resistance
with skin effect, where RF conduction occurs near the surface. One
cannot measure RF conductivity with a DC ohmmeter.

>would be true, because most DVMs use DC to make resistance
>measurements and and an inductors impedance only really become
>obvious in the presence of AC. However I would have used
>'reactance' in place of 'reactive resistance' (more appropriately
>'inductive reactance'), or at the very least 'impedance'....so
>"[inductive reactance] due to skin effect is much higher than
>an ordinary multimeter can register." would be true.

Agreed. If they coated a solenoid wound coil in an induction heater
with lossy ferrite material, which heats by hysterisis loss, the coil
would get quite hot. No need for a rod down the center of the coil.
However, the various photos seem to show a long rod, which I assume
conducts the heat to the tip, so I think they used a rod, not a coated
coil. Again, this is a guess(tm).

>""the resulting power starts dissipating on the active resistance
>of the inductor coil due to the skin effect."

Again, what is "active resistance"? I've never heard of the term. RF
impedance seems like a more likely term.

>would also have been true, since skin effect becomes the dominant
>form of conduction in inductors at higher frequencies, hence wave
>guides (as an RF guy you were aware of that).

Agreed. If I knew the permeability and resistivity of the rod or
coating, I could calculate the skin depth.

>I think however that
>the sentence as worded gives the implication that an "ordinary multimeter"
>can't read high resistance due to skin effect. Maybe it's just me.....

Almost correct. An ordinary ohmmeter will read DC resistance
(resistivity) and nothing else. For RF frequencies, skin effect needs
to be considered. A low frequencies, I like to use an RF ammeter:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=rf+ammeter&tbm=isch>
For resistance, it's just the RF voltage across the transmission line,
divided by RF current. Except at very low RF frequencies, the RF
resistance will be very different from the DC resistance.

>This is actually a very nice video giving a fundamental description
>of the whole system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Wmqc9O24w

Thanks. Looks like I was close. I'm too lazy to go back fix my
guesses. It's definitely an induction heater. However, my ferrite
rod should have been a copper rod coated with ferrite material. I
didn't mention the Curie effect temperature control, but it's similar
to the system used in ancient old Weller soldering stations.

"Self-regulating heater utilizing ferrite-type body"
<https://patents.google.com/patent/US5182427>

>It actually reminds me of the "technology" used on old-school fluid
>level detection sensors using NTC thermistors. The application is
>to drive the thermistor with a constant current such that the power
>dissipated as heat affects the resistance of the device. It the
>voltage across the device is monitored, when it drops below a
>certain level a comparator circuit can be used to switch the
>current down (lower or off) which results in a oscillation.
>As long as the device is held in free air within a certain ambient
>range, this 'self heating' will keep the oscillation alive. However
>when the device is immersed in a liquid, the increased thermal density
>(conductivity, K) of the liguid allows the conduction of the heat
>away from the device to the point that the temperature of the device
>stabilizes and the oscillation stops, or at least does cross the
>comparator reference. When the oscillation stops, you know the
>sensor has detected a liquid or the sensor has failed (a great
>version of a self-diagnostic).
>
>There are obvious drawback to this, one being that it doesn't work
>very well in extreme cold or hot air temperatures, the other being

>that thermistors are inherently fragile (those transients over time
>don't help).

I've never heard of this device. I thought this might be the patent,
but maybe not since there's no mention of oscillation. It does what
you describe, but with DC:
"Thermistor liquid level sensor and method for making same"
<https://patents.google.com/patent/US3479875A/en>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 03:07:04 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:13:52?AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> If the soldering station
>> regulator was an analog DC regulator, it could easily dissipate as
>> much heat as the soldering station hand piece, which is not a good
>> idea. Therefore, PWM is used to limit power dissipation.
>> >This means that the only current from the iron to ground is
>> >though the insulation of the transformer.
>> Wrong. The tip is grounded on a modern iron. You can check for
>> yourself with an ohmmeter. A ground tip is required to ESD
>> (electrostatic discharge) specifications (ANSI/ESD S20.20-2007):

>I remember being told long ago that one reason old ac inductive
>irons shouldn't be used in solid-state electronics is because
>the AC could be present at the tip and damage the parts. Have
>you ever heard that? An old electronics technician's wives tale
>perhaps?

If you change two words in your question, it would be correct. Change
"old AC inductive irons" to "old AC inductive soldering guns".
<https://www.google.com/search?q=weller+soldering+gun&tbm=isch>

In the distant past, I've successfully destroyed components with a
soldering gun. I haven't owned or used one since about 1965. The
classic Weller soldering gun is a poorly shielded step down
transformer, that heats a copper wire tip at some fairly high current.
The resulting magnetic field is proportional to the current. More
current, more magnetic field, and more damage to electronic
components. You can use a soldering gun as a degausser:
<https://99mpg.com/mikestips/solderingiorndegau/>

I couldn't find the tip current online. If it can make a copper wire
tip glow almost red, it's a rather large current. Any wire that comes
close to the iron will see some induced AC current (with a big jolt on
cold start). Not recommended near sensitive electronics.

Soldering irons don't have such high currents or fields.

I have the test equipment needed to measure the tip current and field,
but don't own a soldering gun. Sorry.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 4/28/2023 4:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> You can use a soldering gun as a degausser:
> <https://99mpg.com/mikestips/solderingiorndegau/>

Nice.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 3:41:46 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 03:00:48 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>

> Ok, I'll stop worrying about RF
> leakage.

Especially since it's an issue that's already been solved

> What is "active resistance"? I guess he's confusing DC resistance
> with skin effect, where RF conduction occurs near the surface. One
> cannot measure RF conductivity with a DC ohmmeter.

As I noted in my response, He should have used 'reactance' (the inductive impedance portion of the impedance vector)

> >I think however that
> >the sentence as worded gives the implication that an "ordinary multimeter"
> >can't read high resistance due to skin effect. Maybe it's just me.....
> Almost correct. An ordinary ohmmeter will read DC resistance
> (resistivity) and nothing else. For RF frequencies, skin effect needs
> to be considered. A low frequencies, I like to use an RF ammeter:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=rf+ammeter&tbm=isch>
> For resistance, it's just the RF voltage across the transmission line,
> divided by RF current. Except at very low RF frequencies, the RF
> resistance will be very different from the DC resistance.

I actually spent a good 20 years of my career working on RF and very high data rate systems. I'm very familiar with RF "black magic".

> "Self-regulating heater utilizing ferrite-type body"
> <https://patents.google.com/patent/US5182427>
> >It actually reminds me of the "technology" used on old-school fluid
> >level detection sensors using NTC thermistors.

<snipped for brevity>

>
> I've never heard of this device. I thought this might be the patent,
> but maybe not since there's no mention of oscillation. It does what
> you describe, but with DC:
> "Thermistor liquid level sensor and method for making same"
> <https://patents.google.com/patent/US3479875A/en>

That's close. However, I should mention the result of the application resembles a squareware, but technically is more appropriately considered to be "changing DC". The signal applied to the sensor is a constant current source. We're switching between a 'high' and 'low' current source as the voltage drifts above and below the comparator reference. As the impedance of the sensor changes the resultant voltage is measured which is a square(ish) wave. We aren't really generating AC as much as we are simply monitoring the changing DC.

Interesting tangent - The DC level is integral to the diagnostics presented to the user.
1) the fact the we're monitoring the changing state tells us that the sensor is dry and in good working condition. It isn't likely that any failure could result in the squarewave output within the voltage and period requirements.
2) if the monitored voltage is at the maximum value (as measured during the power-on diagnostics) or at ground, that's an indication to the user that the sensor is open (or not connected) or shorted to ground. This information is presented in the UI.
3) Voltage values which are at some level below the open circuit voltage or above short circuit voltage but fail to cross the comparator reference threshold are reported as "wet". If the operator knows that the sensor is in fact dry, it's an indication of another system fault.