help w/customer valve problem

[AMuzi]

Our customer (active daily rider + audax for 50+ years)
reports chronic valve core problems. Tubes are 700-35~42 PV
with removable core. Michelin, Kenda, Schwalbe, store
brands, assorted. (some from us, most not) He is not nearby
but I've known him since I was a teenager.

He reports:
"Planet Bike floor pump. Pretty normal. Any pump, any valve
stuff happens and air is not going in, take off chuck, try
again. Usually that works. Take off chuck, valve core flies
across room, never to be seen again. Also happens when it
seems all has been normal, fully aired, ready to ride and
then whoosh.

I am tightening every valve on every new tire or tube.
Majority are not full tight as new. Some cores have what
looks like a coating of loctite, some don't. Threading
always looks fine, feels fine. Am tightening with a 4-inch
adjustable crescent wrench. Why couldn't they make the
invisible wrench flats same size as a spoke wrench?"


Doesn't make sense to me. Any suggestions out there?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

Poltergeists?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Lou Holtman]

Some of the issues I also have. Valve cores loose when new leading to loss of air overnight. Schwalbe tubes came in the past with those litlle black plastic mini thingies to tighten the core. When installing a new tube I always tighten the core. Also see no air going in after putting on the chuck. Second try all is good. Strange. Never had a core flying across the garage. I use Schwalbe and continental tubes.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:10:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Doesn't make sense to me. Any suggestions out there?

Presta core in a Woods (Dunlop) stem or the reverse? The Woods valves
are the same diameter as Presta valves and will fit (I've never tried
it).
<https://www.dutchbikeshop.co.uk/pump-tyres-dutch-bike>

Do I get a prize if I'm right?


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[AMuzi]

On 1/21/2023 1:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:10:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> Doesn't make sense to me. Any suggestions out there?
>
> Presta core in a Woods (Dunlop) stem or the reverse? The Woods valves
> are the same diameter as Presta valves and will fit (I've never tried
> it).
> <https://www.dutchbikeshop.co.uk/pump-tyres-dutch-bike>
>
> Do I get a prize if I'm right?
>
>

Sorry not even close. Dunlop/Woods valves OD is same as
Schrader 8mm. Core threads are close in diameter but
Dunlop/Woods are visibly much coarser thread:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

Besides which you can't readily find Dunlop/Woods 700C tubes
here in USA.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 13:50:13 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/21/2023 1:12 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:10:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Doesn't make sense to me. Any suggestions out there?
>>
>> Presta core in a Woods (Dunlop) stem or the reverse? The Woods valves
>> are the same diameter as Presta valves and will fit (I've never tried
>> it).
>> <https://www.dutchbikeshop.co.uk/pump-tyres-dutch-bike>
>>
>> Do I get a prize if I'm right?

>Sorry not even close.

OK. No prize for my bad guess.

>Dunlop/Woods valves OD is same as
>Schrader 8mm. Core threads are close in diameter but
>Dunlop/Woods are visibly much coarser thread:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/NUVALVE.JPG

If he's using removable Presta cores, he's probably also using
tubeless tires. Maybe some sealant leaked in the pump head?

If the core threads are of similar diameter, and someone used thread
locker to deal with a thread diameter and thread pitch mismatch, my
guess points to a mismatch between the removable core and the stem. I
don't know how much of a mismatch, but if he's using a 4 inch crescent
wrench to install the core, then he has enough torque available to
cross-thread it. Launching the core under pressure tells me that the
threads don't match or the core is held in place by a small number of
threads (turns).

I know he says that the "Threading always looks fine, feels fine" but
I'm suspicious. Did he check both the stem and the core for thread
damage?

If not cross-threading, maybe remove the thread locker goo with
solvent and check if the core is a loose or sloppy fit.

Also, ask him to count the number of turns necessary to tighten the
core in place. (I don't know the correct number of turns).

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presta_valve#Threading>

>Besides which you can't readily find Dunlop/Woods 700C tubes
>here in USA.

True.

[Roger Merriman]

None though I avoid tubes with removable cores as well most of my mini
pumps unscrew the valve I found which could get tedious!

Hence using a mini pump that doesn’t screw to the valve on the bike with
tubless.!

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

He runs regular tires with PV tubes on most bikes, tubulars
on a couple of them.

No tubeless.

[Tom Kunich]

Park makes a blue anodized aluminum valve wrench which can righten the valve stem in so tightly that no pump can loosen it.

[Frank Krygowski]

To me, the most mysterious aspect is that it seems to happen repeatedly.
That suggests more of an operator problem than a manufacturing tolerance
problem, unless this is confined to one batch of tubes.

Could he be over-tightening things to the point threads are destroyed?

If not, I'm going with poltergeists.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Sepp Ruf]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/21/2023 5:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/21/2023 3:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:10:15 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't make sense to me. Any suggestions out there?

>>> Also, ask him to count the number of turns necessary to tighten the
>>> core in place.  (I don't know the correct number of turns).
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presta_valve#Threading>

>> He runs regular tires with PV tubes on most bikes, tubulars on a couple
>> of them.
>>
>> No tubeless.

> To me, the most mysterious aspect is that it seems to happen repeatedly.
> That suggests more of an operator problem than a manufacturing tolerance
> problem, unless this is confined to one batch of tubes.

Yup. The constant part in his experimentation is his wrench use.
(Unless you believe $EVILSTATE manipulated the settings of all the
manufacturers' valve core tightening robots.) I also stumbled across
"invisible wrench flats" -- might his reading glasses need an update?

> Could he be over-tightening things to the point threads are destroyed?

I'd explore "age-denial" and carefully find out if he's ready to convert
to "more robust" Schrader or a more comfy bike with wider tires that
work better with even lower pressure than his current setup. Don't be
the next guy selling him one more new pump & innertube that won't solve
the problem!

[Jeff Liebermann]

If all his bicycles have the same problem (launching removable Presta
cores), then I suspect that it's something that all of them have in
common. Offhand, that would be the owner and the 4 inch crescent
wrench. There might also be an adapter involved that wasn't
mentioned. It's not the pump or pump head because it's very unlikely
to have more than one defective head. My guess(tm) is that he's
stripping out the threads with the wrench. I can't think of anything
else that would inspire a Presta core to go airborne. Unless he has a
borescope or endoscope to inspect the threads, I would suspect that
his visual inspection and "Threading always looks fine, feels fine"
observation might be incorrect. Check the threads. My guess(tm) is
that they are all stripped or a very loose fit.

I'm still interested in the number of turns he applied to insert the
Presta core. If it's less than perhaps 5 turns, it's easy to strip
the brass threads. On visual inspection, he might be looking at the
remaining threads, which will look normal. If my guess(tm) is
correct, only the first 5 threads will be stripped and the rest will
look fine. The minimum recommended thread engagement for brass is 1
to 1.5 times the threaded core diameter.

[Sepp Ruf]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 16:28:06 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

>> He runs regular tires with PV tubes on most bikes, tubulars
>> on a couple of them.
>>
>> No tubeless.
>
> If all his bicycles have the same problem (launching removable Presta
> cores), then I suspect that it's something that all of them have in
> common. Offhand, that would be the owner and the 4 inch crescent
> wrench. There might also be an adapter involved that wasn't
> mentioned. It's not the pump or pump head because it's very unlikely
> to have more than one defective head. My guess(tm) is that he's
> stripping out the threads with the wrench. I can't think of anything
> else that would inspire a Presta core to go airborne. Unless he has a
> borescope or endoscope to inspect the threads, I would suspect that
> his visual inspection and "Threading always looks fine, feels fine"
> observation might be incorrect. Check the threads. My guess(tm) is
> that they are all stripped or a very loose fit.

Are we dangerously nearing a premature, dangerously narrow "consensus"
about the most likely cause? So let me add another, far-out guess, instead:

How about corrosion aided by some basic rearragement in the customer's
parts/bike storage environment? Some unmentioned, but galvanically
furious exotic valve covers that a magically inclined, obsessive
customer puts on, first thing, whenever he gets new tubes?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 10:39:20 +0100, Sepp Ruf <inq...@Safe-mail.net>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 16:28:06 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
>
>>> He runs regular tires with PV tubes on most bikes, tubulars
>>> on a couple of them.
>>>
>>> No tubeless.
>>
>> If all his bicycles have the same problem (launching removable Presta
>> cores), then I suspect that it's something that all of them have in
>> common. Offhand, that would be the owner and the 4 inch crescent
>> wrench. There might also be an adapter involved that wasn't
>> mentioned. It's not the pump or pump head because it's very unlikely
>> to have more than one defective head. My guess(tm) is that he's
>> stripping out the threads with the wrench. I can't think of anything
>> else that would inspire a Presta core to go airborne. Unless he has a
>> borescope or endoscope to inspect the threads, I would suspect that
>> his visual inspection and "Threading always looks fine, feels fine"
>> observation might be incorrect. Check the threads. My guess(tm) is
>> that they are all stripped or a very loose fit.

>Are we dangerously nearing a premature, dangerously narrow "consensus"
>about the most likely cause? So let me add another, far-out guess, instead:

I'll confess that I've never seen removable Presta core. Here's a
photo:
<https://www.lordgun.com/presta-removable-valve-core-2>
<https://www.tradeinn.com/f/13606/136061854/massi-valve-presta-tubeless-removable-core-2-units.jpg>
I noticed that the fine threads on the core, which I suspect are
stripped, are rolled and oddly shallow. The crest and the root are
rounded making slippage possible for a sloppy fit. Terminology
refresh:
<https://www.starrapid.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Screw-thread-terminology.jpg>
I (visually) count 6 threads, where 6 times the thread pitch is about
equal to the core major diameter. That's about the minimum
recommended number of threads. I wouldn't have a problem if the core
threads were better formed. Notice that the core is inserted at a
slight angle in this photo:
<https://www.tradeinn.com/f/13606/136061854/massi-valve-presta-tubeless-removable-core-2-units.jpg>
I smell a loose fit, which is likely because there are no visible
"flat spots" for using a 4" crescent wrench to tighten the core. If
the core was intended to be installed "finger tight", without the
assistance of a wrench, then a loose fit is likely.

>How about corrosion aided by some basic rearragement in the customer's
>parts/bike storage environment? Some unmentioned, but galvanically
>furious exotic valve covers that a magically inclined, obsessive
>customer puts on, first thing, whenever he gets new tubes?

Methinks not. You might have missed my key point. There are too many
combinations of tube, stem, core and pump that will produce a flying
core. Corrosion damage is possible in one core and stem pair, but not
in the apparently numerous repetitions. A manufacturing defect is
more likely, where all the stems and cores have identical problem.
However, the tubes are from different vendors, so that's unlikely.

My point was for an identical failure to occur in a large number of
different combinations of tube, stem, core and pump, there has to be a
culprit or failure that is common to all the various combination. That
suggests the owner, with the assistance of the 4" crescent wrench, is
over-tightening the core, which thanks to the loose fit, is stripping
the threads.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 10:57:22 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>I'll confess that I've never seen removable Presta core. Here's a
>photo:
><https://www.lordgun.com/presta-removable-valve-core-2>

Here's a better photo of the Presta core.
<https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/stans-no-tubes/tu404b00.jpg>
Notice the rounded crest and root of the threads.

There is also a polished area on the opposing crests of the larger
threads which is the flat areas suitable for applying a torque
amplifying removal tool. Enlarging and inspecting the other photos
show the flat areas on all the previously mentioned photos. Sorry, I
missed it when I first looked at the photos.

It might be useful if the owner purchase a proper Presta core removal
tool:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=presta+valve+core+removal+tool&tbm=isch>
Notice that none of the tools resemble a 4" crescent wrench.

"How to Remove a Presta Valve Core Without A Tool"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvdJbrfdZLk>
Notice that a crescent wrench is not among the recommended tools.

The crescent wrench could be better utilized for rounding bolt heads
than for removing Presta cores.

[AMuzi]

On 1/22/2023 1:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 10:57:22 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'll confess that I've never seen removable Presta core. Here's a
>> photo:
>> <https://www.lordgun.com/presta-removable-valve-core-2>
>
> Here's a better photo of the Presta core.
> <https://www.jensonusa.com/globalassets/product-images---all-assets/stans-no-tubes/tu404b00.jpg>
> Notice the rounded crest and root of the threads.
>
> There is also a polished area on the opposing crests of the larger
> threads which is the flat areas suitable for applying a torque
> amplifying removal tool. Enlarging and inspecting the other photos
> show the flat areas on all the previously mentioned photos. Sorry, I
> missed it when I first looked at the photos.
>
> It might be useful if the owner purchase a proper Presta core removal
> tool:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=presta+valve+core+removal+tool&tbm=isch>
> Notice that none of the tools resemble a 4" crescent wrench.
>
> "How to Remove a Presta Valve Core Without A Tool"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvdJbrfdZLk>
> Notice that a crescent wrench is not among the recommended tools.
>
> The crescent wrench could be better utilized for rounding bolt heads
> than for removing Presta cores.
>

Thanks to you all, especially Mr Holtman and Mr Merriman for
confirming this is not an unique problem.

And to you for analysis. I have come to agree that
overtorque of a thin brass tube with resultant thread
deformation is the probable root of it.

I suggested he use traditional (non-removable-core) tubes
which are widely available.

p.s. I also use an American Crescent brand 4" adjustable
wrench but I also understand it's a thin brass tube and
torque accordingly.

[Tom Kunich]

I suppose that since I work so often on bicycles, that I know enough never to overtighten things like valve cores. I leave that to people like Liebermann who is willing to tell us all how to do these things when he doesn't ride bicycles.

[AMuzi]

Well a Presta threaded valve stem is 5.7mm OD, which leaves
4.96mm at thread root. On the inside it's threaded for a
4.6mm core or a wall thickness of about 0.2mm at thinnest
sections in brass. Most people would not observe a light
enough torque for that.

The repeated failures are caused IMHO by a deformed
(expanded) valve stem such that a new insert pops out like
the last insert.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/23/2023 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> I suppose that since I work so often on bicycles, that I know enough never to overtighten things like valve cores. I leave that to people like Liebermann who is willing to tell us all how to do these things when he doesn't ride bicycles.

:-) Unlike you, Jeff hasn't repeatedly complained about his handlebars
slipping. Perhaps he's better at tightening things than you are!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

Thanks.

For your amusement, I was looking at photos of 4 inch crescent
wrenches and found this item:
<https://countycomm.com/products/adjustable-wrench-titanium-4-inch-nsn-pending>
However, one of the photos shows something rather odd:
<https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1437/9632/products/IMG_4260.jpg>
That's a Motorola Quantar radio repeater. The coax connector is a TNC
connector which does not have flats or a hex nut for tightening. The
titanium crescent wrench seems perfect for rounding bolt heads and
damaging coax cable connectors.

>> I suggested he use traditional (non-removable-core) tubes
>> which are widely available.
>>
>> p.s. I also use an American Crescent brand 4" adjustable
>> wrench but I also understand it's a thin brass tube and
>> torque accordingly.

>I suppose that since I work so often on bicycles, that I know
>enough never to overtighten things like valve cores.

That's not the way it works. If you know how something works, you can
figure out what's broken and how to fix it. However, if you don't
know how something works, which appears to be your problem, the best
you can do is follow someone else's instructions.

>I leave that to people like Liebermann who is willing to tell
>us all how to do these things when he doesn't ride bicycles.

True. I like solving problems. You seem to enjoy creating problems.
That's why we get along so well.

In this case, I have never seen a Presta valve with a removable core.
Therefore, I have never worked with one. Yet, I was able to analyze
the problem, determine a likely point of failure, and suggest a
probable cause. If I had not known the limitations of rolled and
stamped threads, I would never have produced a solution. While first
hand experience is very useful, knowing how things work will suffice.

I mentioned this story previously in RBT, but it bears repeating. I
used to work for a manager who tended to lie if he didn't understand
the problem or know the answer. I didn't say anything because the
things he did know were very valuable for what we were doing. His
knowledge, based mostly on experience, was worth tolerating the lies.
The trick was to recognize the truths, which I gladly did because they
proved to be so valuable. In your case, I'm still waiting for some
valuable and useful truths.

[AMuzi]

US made Crescent brand 4" adjustable is a popular little
thing with tight slides and crisp jaws:

https://www.2040-parts.com/crescent-adjustable-wrench-4-in-at14-vintage-crescent-tool-co-jamestown-ny-usa-i1030262/

It's not junk. User torque values are a real possibility for
a trouble source but not the tool itself.

[sms]

On 1/23/2023 11:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> For your amusement, I was looking at photos of 4 inch crescent
> wrenches and found this item:
> <https://countycomm.com/products/adjustable-wrench-titanium-4-inch-nsn-pending>

Only 0.52" jaw opening.

I use this one with about a 1" opening (actually about 1¹⁄₁₆"):
<https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832662508203.html>. It's quite well
made. I put one into each bike's tool bag since they're so inexpensive.

[Jeff Liebermann]

I didn't say the 4 inch crescent wrench was junk. I suggested that it
was not an appropriate tool for the intended purpose.

I used to carry a 2.5 inch crescent wrench in my pocket.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=2.5+inch+crescent+wrench&tbm=isch>
Very handy, but still not suitable for tightening Presta cores because
of the possibility of over-tightening.

When I'm faced with similar mysteries, I tend to ask myself "What
problem were they trying to solve?" In this case, my question is
"what caused the user to use a wrench instead of just finger
tightening the core?" My guess is that he had a problem with leaking
air from the inner tube(s) and assumed that it was a leaking valve.
(Assumption is the mother of all screwups).

He may then have followed the advice of this YouTube video:
"How To Fix A Leaky Tire Presta Valve Stem Valve Core Bike Blogger"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7XzK0p_03o>

"How to fix a leaky tire with a presta valve? You may have a leaky
tire because the valve core on the inner tube valve stem shipped loose
from the factory."
I don't believe that the factory ships stems configured to fail when
initially used.

"To fix a leaky tire in this case all you need to do is make sure the
valve core body is tightened on the valve stem. Use some small pliers,
a wrench, or a valve core remover tool specifically for this purpose."
Notice that in the video, he was able to easily unscrew the core using
only his fingers and without the aid of additional tools. Using small
pliers or a wrench are likely to overtighten the core. Predictably,
the author of the video does not indicate whether his tightening of
the core solved his air leakage problem or whether his core was later
launched in the same manner as the original problem.

Since I don't have a Presta stem with a removable core handy, could
someone look at theirs and tell me if there is a rubber washer in the
base of the stem that would provide an air seal for the core? If so,
finger tight should be sufficient. Brute force with a wrench could
cut or distort a rubber washer, causing an (additional) air leak. If
this is the case, the owner tightening the core with a 4" crescent
wrench probably caused the valve leak (if the original leak was
elsewhere) or made it worse (if the original leak was in the stem).

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 14:46:09 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/23/2023 11:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> For your amusement, I was looking at photos of 4 inch crescent
>> wrenches and found this item:
>> <https://countycomm.com/products/adjustable-wrench-titanium-4-inch-nsn-pending>
>
>Only 0.52" jaw opening.
>

>I use this one with about a 1" opening (actually about 1¹???"):

><https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832662508203.html>. It's quite well
>made. I put one into each bike's tool bag since they're so inexpensive.

You may have missed my point. The photo of the wrench being used to
tighten the coaxial cable connector in the countycomm.com link above
would not work with any size crescent wrench (or adjustable spanner).
The problem is the TNC connector has a knurled round retaining shell.
A crescent wrench would just slide around the outside and not tighten
anything. For a crescent wrench to work properly, the retaining shell
would need to be hexagonal.

I prefer a thin jaw crescent wrench, which is a marginal substitute
for a cone wrench. Something like this:
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08L6TS8JX>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=thin+jaw+crescent+wrench&tbm=isch>

[AMuzi]

http://www.yellowjersey.org/PV2PART.JPG

White seal is insert to valve body.
Black seal is valve itself

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:42:59 a.m. UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
Big snip

> I didn't say the 4 inch crescent wrench was junk. I suggested that it
> was not an appropriate tool for the intended purpose.

Another big snip

> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

When I worked in bicycle shops the two tools we most feared home bicycle repairers using were locking pliers and adjustable wrenches. So many times we'd have someone come in with a bike that had either locking pliers or an adjustable wrench used on them, that our tools would no longer fit the damaged fastener(s).

Add to that that some people think that you really have to reef a bolt or nut to tighten it.

Cheers

[AMuzi]

+1.

And vice grips

[Sir Ridesalot]

Vice Grips is a trademark name for a certain brand of locking pliers. ;<)

Cheers

[Radey Shouman]

In the King's English I understand they are called "molegrips". In my
experience they are often called "<insert ethnicity> Crescent wrenches".

[Tom Kunich]

Feared? If a customer was stupid enough to use Crescent wrenches improperly and round off bolts or nuts you use a Locknut pliers to remove it. You then charge the costumer for the additional work and the3 replacement parts. Sure frightens me. Three of the local bike shops have gone out of business for lack of work.

[Tom Kunich]

What do you use if you bought a supermarket bike that has English size nuts and bolts instead of the higher end metric Allen heads or Torx? Used properly they are a good tool.

[Lou Holtman]

Not on a bike and certainly not on one of mine, but those can sometimes save your day.

Lou

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/25/2023 11:02 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 2:27:29 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>

>> And vice grips

>
> Not on a bike and certainly not on one of mine, but those can sometimes save your day.
>
> Lou

Back in the days before multi-tools, a friend of mine once broke a chain
on a tour. He managed to reassemble the chain with vise grips he carried.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

On 1/25/2023 9:14 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 8:27:29 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2023 9:12 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:42:59 a.m. UTC-5,
>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Big snip
>>>>> I didn't say the 4 inch crescent wrench was junk. I suggested that it
>>>>> was not an appropriate tool for the intended purpose.
>>>> Another big snip
>>>>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>>>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>>>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>>>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>>>>
>>>> When I worked in bicycle shops the two tools we most feared home
>>>> bicycle repairers using were locking pliers and adjustable
>>>> wrenches. So many times we'd have someone come in with a bike that
>>>> had either locking pliers or an adjustable wrench used on them,
>>>> that our tools would no longer fit the damaged fastener(s).
>>>>
>>>> Add to that that some people think that you really have to reef a
>>>> bolt or nut to tighten it.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>> +1.
>>>
>>> And vice grips

>>

>> Vice Grips is a trademark name for a certain brand of locking pliers. ;<)
>>
>> Cheers
>
> In the King's English I understand they are called "molegrips". In my
> experience they are often called "<insert ethnicity> Crescent wrenches".
>

heh heh never heard that before but I get it.

I spelled it that way because on a bicycle it's a failing.

[Catrike Rider]

I carry some tools. Vice grips are not one of them.

[Tom Kunich]

I have an entire load of nut and bolt drivers that are now obsolete because everything is now Allen or Torx. I even bought a special Torx 20 driver so that I can tighten the Campy brake levers. But the Torx will not allow you to tighten beyond a certain point and hitting a pothole at an angle can allow the lever to rotate. The Torx uses a medium screwdriver handle. I have some Torx wrenches that can be used with a ratchet handle but this will strip the Torx bolt. I tried it once, with a 6" torque ratchet.

[John B.]

(:-) I once had a monster Black chap assigned to my crew - 6 feet
something and strong enough to lift a 200 lb. supercharger over his
head and hold it until a small guy could insert the mount bolts - he
used to twist off 1/4" studs with a common box end wrench. We finally
took his tools away and restricted him to lifting only :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 6:12:44 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I have an entire load of nut and bolt drivers that are now obsolete because everything is now Allen or Torx.

Sorry, that makes no sense unless you never work on any mechanical device other than one certain
type of bicycle. There are countless devices that still use other fasteners.

> I even bought a special Torx 20 driver so that I can tighten the Campy brake levers.

What's special about a Torx 20 driver?

> But the Torx will not allow you to tighten beyond a certain point and hitting a pothole at an angle can allow the lever to rotate.

Ah, yet another Kunich mechanical problem that occurs only to Kunich.

> The Torx uses a medium screwdriver handle. I have some Torx wrenches that can be used with a ratchet handle but this will strip the Torx bolt. I tried it once, with a 6" torque ratchet.

What's stripping? The strength of bolt threads is not affected by the head on the fastener. And you
would not have stripped out the Torx head itself unless you used the wrong size driver.

BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with drivers that have screwdriver
style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise grip pliers onto the driver handle.

- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Beyond that, my expense for "use once" proprietary tools is
an ongoing problem. Every 'designer' wants to reinvent the
wheel (or fastener as the case may be).

[Tom Kunich]

Frank has nothing but shit for bikes and wants to tell us all that I don't know what I'm doing even though I have every bike in my garage worth three times what his crap is worth. So Frank can be relied upon to know what he is talking about.

Torx are used in aluminum head fasteners because it allows you to use lighter parts without too badly compromising your ability to tighten the connection sufficiently.

But there is absolutely no end of Krygowski's ability to lecture you on things he hasn't even seen and has absolutely no experience with. This is why teachers are held in such contempt by people who actually do things.

The Torx connector in Campy levers is a NUT which tightens on the bar strap for the Shift lever. This makes it impossible to tighten the Torx beyond a certain point since at some point the strap jams itself against the bar and tightening the Torx more only succeeds in breaking the aluminum Torx teeth.

So Frank with no knowledge at all couldn't care less if he knew what he is talking about. His entire purpose is to believe that he is contradicting me. What a poor little excuse for a human being. Him and Flunky make the perfect couple

[Tim R]

Off topic but I wondered if I could get a Ford wrench in that size. Google says no.

I have a full size Ford wrench probably from a yard sale or thrift shop. It sat on my desk several years before someone recognized it, I didn't know what it was either. I've used it once and once only, but I needed to change the washer on an outdoor faucet with limited clearance and it was the only thing I owned that would grip that large hexagonal nut on the faucet.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with drivers that have screwdriver
>style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise grip pliers onto the driver handle.

Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
Tools for Dummies book?

Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."

[AMuzi]

We use screwdrivers with wrench flats
https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/D310/WI531.png

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:38:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/26/2023 10:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with drivers that have screwdriver
>>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>>
>> Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
>> Tools for Dummies book?
>>
>> Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."
>>
>
>We use screwdrivers with wrench flats
>https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/D310/WI531.png

+1

I have tools from my great uncle who died back when I rode a child's
tricycle. (pre-1952) Several screwdrivers with not a single mark on
the hardwood handles, but lots of damage to the round shafts. I don't
know if he had any vicegrips, but I do have a wicked looking slip
joint pliers (channel locks) of his.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2023 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working
>>> with drivers that have screwdriver
>>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping
>>> vise grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>

> We use screwdrivers with wrench flats
> https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/D310/WI531.png

Most of my screwdrivers are that general type, and of course I use them
with wrenches when necessary.

But I was speaking of nut drivers (including my set with removable bits
that includes Torx bits), and mine have round shafts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2023 11:19 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> The Torx connector in Campy levers is a NUT which tightens on the bar strap for the Shift lever. This makes it impossible to tighten the Torx beyond a certain point since at some point the strap jams itself against the bar and tightening the Torx more only succeeds in breaking the aluminum Torx teeth.

Ah! That explains why no serious cyclists and no competitive racers use
Campy levers: They can't be properly tightened onto the bars! Even their
professional mechanics are baffled by Campy's design.

Is that what you meant? ;-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

SnapOn and WIHA designed for that.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 07:05:30 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Off topic but I wondered if I could get a Ford wrench in that size. Google says no.
>
>I have a full size Ford wrench probably from a yard sale or thrift shop. It sat on my desk several years before someone recognized it, I didn't know what it was either. I've used it once and once only, but I needed to change the washer on an outdoor faucet with limited clearance and it was the only thing I owned that would grip that large hexagonal nut on the faucet.

You didn't specify the size of the hex nut. Numbers are helpful and
one size does not fit everything.

Maybe something like this will work for your limited clearance
problem:
<https://www.acehardware.com/departments/plumbing/plumbing-tools/plumbing-wrenches/43917>
Works for 1" to 3" jaw width. However, don't apply too much force as
it's not really designed for high torque applications. If the faucet
is stuck or RIP (rusted in place), something stronger will be needed.



--

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

the alleged value of your bikes has absolutely nothing to do with your (lack of ) mechanical abilities, dumbass.

> Torx are used in aluminum head fasteners because it allows you to use lighter parts without too badly compromising your ability to tighten the connection sufficiently.
>
> But there is absolutely no end of Krygowski's ability to lecture you on things he hasn't even seen and has absolutely no experience with.

Yeah, I'm sure Frank has no experience with Torx fasteners.

> This is why teachers are held in such contempt by people who actually do things.

Teachers are held in contempt by people who constantly fuck things up - like you.

>
> The Torx connector in Campy levers is a NUT which tightens on the bar strap for the Shift lever. This makes it impossible to tighten the Torx beyond a certain point since at some point the strap jams itself against the bar and tightening the Torx more only succeeds in breaking the aluminum Torx teeth.
>
> So Frank with no knowledge at all couldn't care less if he knew what he is talking about. His entire purpose is to believe that he is contradicting me.

Everyone here - except that shithead jute - contradicts you.

> What a poor little excuse for a human being. Him and Flunky make the perfect couple

Jutelist:
1. Repeatedly accusing people of being "queer". He's a closeted queer, afraid people will find out.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2023 1:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 07:05:30 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Off topic but I wondered if I could get a Ford wrench in that size. Google says no.
>>
>> I have a full size Ford wrench probably from a yard sale or thrift shop. It sat on my desk several years before someone recognized it, I didn't know what it was either. I've used it once and once only, but I needed to change the washer on an outdoor faucet with limited clearance and it was the only thing I owned that would grip that large hexagonal nut on the faucet.
>
> You didn't specify the size of the hex nut. Numbers are helpful and
> one size does not fit everything.
>
> Maybe something like this will work for your limited clearance
> problem:
> <https://www.acehardware.com/departments/plumbing/plumbing-tools/plumbing-wrenches/43917>
> Works for 1" to 3" jaw width. However, don't apply too much force as
> it's not really designed for high torque applications. If the faucet
> is stuck or RIP (rusted in place), something stronger will be needed.

There have been a few times over the years when I either modified or
fabricated a light duty open end wrench for quirky, close clearance
situations. One involved work on a ventilation control flapper on one of
our cars. It was either remove the entire dash, or work in very close
spaces through the radio hole in the dash. I chose the latter.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:38:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/26/2023 10:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with drivers that have screwdriver
>>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>>
>> Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
>> Tools for Dummies book?
>>
>> Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."

>We use screwdrivers with wrench flats
>https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/D310/WI531.png

If you have any Craftsman screwdrivers with handles like these:
<https://www.sears.com/craftsman-17-pc-screwdriver-set/p-00931794000P>
a 24 mm 12 point box or combination wrench will fit over the plastic
handle and act as a torque amplifier.

Locking vise grip pliers have their uses. Destroying and "rounding"
fastener heads and nuts are some of those uses.

--

[Catrike Rider]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:17:14 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 10:38:36 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 1/26/2023 10:31 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with drivers that have screwdriver
>>>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>>>
>>> Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
>>> Tools for Dummies book?
>>>
>>> Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."
>
>>We use screwdrivers with wrench flats
>>https://cdn-reichelt.de/bilder/web/xxl_ws/D310/WI531.png
>
>If you have any Craftsman screwdrivers with handles like these:
><https://www.sears.com/craftsman-17-pc-screwdriver-set/p-00931794000P>
>a 24 mm 12 point box or combination wrench will fit over the plastic
>handle and act as a torque amplifier.
>
>Locking vise grip pliers have their uses. Destroying and "rounding"
>fastener heads and nuts are some of those uses.

+1

[Tom Kunich]

That pothole hit on Tuesday ride almost popped the tire off of the rim and slightly misaligned the Campy Shamals. Last night I went down to repair the problems for today's ride and the nipples on that Shamal are something like 5 or 6 mm hex. Of course I didn't have an open end wrench that size but a 6" Crescent wrench could be adjust to the proper size and was wide enough not to strip the nipple as an open end that size would. Obviously Campy makes a special tool for it but a small Cresent wrench worked perfectly. So much for the conversation about adjustable wrenches not being the proper tool for anything.

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.amazon.com/RONMAR-13-Piece-Magnetic-Screwdrivers-T4%E3%80%81T5%E3%80%81T6%E3%80%81T7%E3%80%81T8%E3%80%81T9%E3%80%81T10%E3%80%81T15%E3%80%81T20%E3%80%81T25%E3%80%81T27%E3%80%81T30%E3%80%81T40/dp/B081R3Y9PL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=5KUB06KTR7ZI&keywords=torx+screwdriver+set&qid=1674769328&sprefix=Torx%2Caps%2C139&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEySzZHTEMzQzFXRDVZJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDAxMzc4MkxUUEZNVFBURDFZWiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDQ2ODI2M1UwUkJVNjhKUU1aVCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

No flats and unlike idiots, I don't use Vice Grips on other tools.

[John B.]

I have a number of screwdrivers with a "hex" section just below the
"hand" grip. Far better then boogering up the handle with a vice
grip.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

Yeah, using a vise grip on a screwdriver handle is not a particularly
good idea.

Use a Torx bit with a bit adapter for a ratchet would be the proper method.

The good thing is that a Torx-head bolt can withstand a LOT of torque
without the head being stripped.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2023 2:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> If you have any Craftsman screwdrivers with handles like these:
> <https://www.sears.com/craftsman-17-pc-screwdriver-set/p-00931794000P>
> a 24 mm 12 point box or combination wrench will fit over the plastic
> handle and act as a torque amplifier.

Those are mine. Note the square shafts on all the flat ones. Philips are
round shafts.

> Locking vise grip pliers have their uses. Destroying and "rounding"
> fastener heads and nuts are some of those uses.

It was back in the 1970s that I encountered a pan head screw on which a
previous owner had somehow stripped the head. I still remember my joy at
realizing that the vise grips could get get a bite on the edges of the
head and crank the screw loose. So yes, they can do damage. They can
also be saviors.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Sure, as with square shank, that's good if your screwdriver has that.
Obviously, not all screwdrivers do.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2023 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> ... the nipples on that Shamal are something like 5 or 6 mm hex. Of course I didn't have an open end wrench that size...

Really? Why ever not?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

+1 SnapOn and WIHA, great products.

[AMuzi]

On 1/26/2023 7:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/26/2023 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> ... the nipples on that Shamal are something like 5 or 6
>> mm hex. Of course I didn't have an open end wrench that
>> size...
>
> Really? Why ever not?
>

5.5mm nut drivers are very readily available anywhere
https://rotordisc.dk/images/R-5647.jpg

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/26/2023 7:08 PM, sms wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, using a vise grip on a screwdriver handle is not a particularly
> good idea.

It depends on your objective. If you aim to preserve your tools in
pristine, brand-new condition, suitable for framing, it's not a good idea.

If your objective is to get the job done, it can work wonderfully.

I aim to get the job done. My screwdrivers may not be as pretty as some,
but they work fine.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 8:38:40 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/26/2023 7:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/26/2023 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> ... the nipples on that Shamal are something like 5 or 6
> >> mm hex. Of course I didn't have an open end wrench that
> >> size...
> >
> > Really? Why ever not?
> >
> 5.5mm nut drivers are very readily available anywhere
> https://rotordisc.dk/images/R-5647.jpg
> --

I think tommy was lamenting the fact that the spoke nipples were a hex nut in a size he didn't have.

[AMuzi]

meh. All day every day.

We have a dozen drivers for other than exposed square nipples.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm amazed that he wouldn't have a fairly common tool. I work on lots of
things besides bicycles.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

REmember, we're talking about a guy that tried to by a set of metric torx drivers...

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:38:40 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/26/2023 7:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/26/2023 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> ... the nipples on that Shamal are something like 5 or 6
> >> mm hex. Of course I didn't have an open end wrench that
> >> size...
> >
> > Really? Why ever not?
> >
> 5.5mm nut drivers are very readily available anywhere
> https://rotordisc.dk/images/R-5647.jpg

The nipples are external. Tiny open end wrenches can strip the soft aluminum nipple. This is a Campy wheel, you should be able to look the special tool up.

https://www.amazon.com/Campagnolo-Spoke-Wrenches-6mm-Wrench/dp/B001GSKK46/ref=sr_1_7?crid=2PW3KM5Z142E8&keywords=Campagnolo+Shamal+spoke+nipple+wrench&qid=1674839724&sprefix=campagnolo+shamal+spoke+nipple+wrench%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-7

Should I buy a special tool when a crescent wrench works fine?

[Catrike Rider]

A crescent wrench is a really poor hammer.

[AMuzi]

Were they left handed?

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 09:18:23 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

This link is shorter and better:
<https://www.amazon.com/Campagnolo-Spoke-Wrenches-6mm-Wrench/dp/B001GSKK46/>

Why did you point to a 6mm spoke nipple when you were complaining
about 5.5mm?
"Spoke Wrench Selection"
<https://www.parktool.com/en-us/blog/repair-help/spoke-wrench-tool-selection>

>Should I buy a special tool when a crescent wrench works fine?

Yes, you should. The spokes on your wheels are about 50mm apart. The
length of the smallest crescent wrench I could find is 63.5mm (2.5
inches). If you use such a crescent wrench to adjust or replace a
spoke, you will be removing and then replacing the wrench every half
turn (180 degrees). Using a wrench that is shorter than 50mm would be
better.

Incidentally, if a "tiny open end wrench" will strip the soft aluminum
nipple, then literally any open end wrenching tool, which includes all
of the commercially available spoke wrenches, will also strip the soft
aluminum nipple. However, aluminum bicycle nipples are probably not
made from "dead soft" aluminum, but rather from some alloy that has
been hardened, such as 6061-T6.

From what material is your Campagnolo 6mm spoke wrench made? Plastic,
carbon fiber, aluminum, steel, gold, etc?

[sms]

On 1/26/2023 5:38 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/26/2023 7:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/26/2023 4:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> ... the nipples on that Shamal are something like 5 or 6
>>> mm hex. Of course I didn't have an open end wrench that
>>> size...
>>
>> Really? Why ever not?
>>
>
> 5.5mm nut drivers are very readily available anywhere

He was looking for a 5.5mm open end wrench. Still pretty commonly available.

<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001P0VF8>
<https://www.grainger.com/product/6LEZ6>
<https://www.lowes.com/pd/Capri-Tools-Mini-Slim-Open-End-Wrench-Set-Metric-3-2-to-13mm-6-Piece/5005960543>

[John B.]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:32:54 -0800, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Well... Tommy does have troubles with the more complex problems.
Available, on line, for about $2.00
https://tinyurl.com/mu43czfr
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Tommy has troubles with the simple problems.

Congratulations John, BTW - Tommy's taken you off his 'stupid' list. You must be so proud!

[Roger Merriman]

Radey Shouman <sho...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>
>> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 8:27:29 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/24/2023 9:12 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:42:59 a.m. UTC-5,
>>>> jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Big snip
>>>>> I didn't say the 4 inch crescent wrench was junk. I suggested that it
>>>>> was not an appropriate tool for the intended purpose.
>>>> Another big snip

>>>>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>>>>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>>>>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>>>>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>>>>

>>>> When I worked in bicycle shops the two tools we most feared home
>>>> bicycle repairers using were locking pliers and adjustable
>>>> wrenches. So many times we'd have someone come in with a bike that
>>>> had either locking pliers or an adjustable wrench used on them,
>>>> that our tools would no longer fit the damaged fastener(s).
>>>>
>>>> Add to that that some people think that you really have to reef a
>>>> bolt or nut to tighten it.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>> +1.
>>>
>>> And vice grips

>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>

>> Vice Grips is a trademark name for a certain brand of locking pliers. ;<)
>>
>> Cheers
>
> In the King's English I understand they are called "molegrips". In my
> experience they are often called "<insert ethnicity> Crescent wrenches".
>
Ironically should be Kings french or lastly German! As most of the kings
(England) didn’t speak English, hence “prime minster” for George 1st needed
one as he didn’t know English!

Mole grip is what I’ve known as to why they are called that?

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with
>> drivers that have screwdriver
>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise
>> grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>
> Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
> Tools for Dummies book?
>
> Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."
>

I’ve not done that but my old socket set the “screws driver the socket will
attach to, so one can ratchet from there, if needed mosty less about torque
more about getting at something!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 19:11:48 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:

>Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with
>>> drivers that have screwdriver
>>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise
>>> grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>>
>> Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
>> Tools for Dummies book?
>>
>> Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."
>>

>I致e not done that but my old socket set the 都crews driver the socket will

>attach to, so one can ratchet from there, if needed mosty less about torque
>more about getting at something!
>
>Roger Merriman

Disrespect your tools and they will skin your knuckles. Ask me how I
know.

[Roger Merriman]

Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 19:11:48 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 20:47:17 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW, speaking of vise grips, here's a mechanical tip: When working with
>>>> drivers that have screwdriver
>>>> style handles, I've sometimes applied additional torque by clamping vise
>>>> grip pliers onto the driver handle.
>>>
>>> Wow, did you come up with that all by yourself or did you read it in a
>>> Tools for Dummies book?
>>>
>>> Actually, that's a good way to ruin a "screwdriver style handle."
>>>

>> I’ve not done that but my old socket set the “screws driver the socket will

>> attach to, so one can ratchet from there, if needed mosty less about torque
>> more about getting at something!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Disrespect your tools and they will skin your knuckles. Ask me how I
> know.
>

This is the way they are intended ie the screwdriver is part of the set and
intended to connect to the ratchet, though I’ve generally used it for
awkward to get to places than stuff that will not shift which I normally
use penetrating oil and return tomorrow which if one has the patience is
often very effective!

Roger Merriman

[sms]

On 1/30/2023 12:10 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

<snip>

> This is the way they are intended ie the screwdriver is part of the set and
> intended to connect to the ratchet, though I’ve generally used it for
> awkward to get to places than stuff that will not shift which I normally
> use penetrating oil and return tomorrow which if one has the patience is
> often very effective!
>
> Roger Merriman

Having to remove the control panel from a range, using a ratchet with a
screwdriver bit eliminated the need to pull the range all the way out
from the wall. A whopping US$2.99 to do the job right:
<https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-right-angle-screwdriver-92630.html>.
Hopefully no one really uses Vise-Grips on a screwdriver handle in order
to get more leverage! Pretty sure that Frank was joking.

[John B.]

Errr... "The King's English" refers to a book on English usage and
grammar, published in 1906 :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_English
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

>>> Vice Grips is a trademark name for a certain brand of locking pliers. ;<)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>> In the King's English I understand they are called "molegrips". In my
>> experience they are often called "<insert ethnicity> Crescent wrenches".
>>
> Ironically should be Kings french or lastly German! As most of the kings

> (England) didn’t speak English, hence “prime minster†for George 1st needed
> one as he didn’t know English!
>
> Mole grip is what I’ve known as to why they are called that?
>
> Roger Merriman
>

It's a man's name
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/M._Mole_and_Son

[Roger Merriman]

Been attempts to rationalise English and in some cases falsely pretensions
of grandeur going back to printing presses but Victorians did a lot of
this! Book was just after so technically not quite!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

>> (England) didn’t speak English, hence “prime minster” for George 1st needed
>> one as he didn’t know English!
>>
>> Mole grip is what I’ve known as to why they are called that?

>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> It's a man's name
> https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/M._Mole_and_Son

Well every day is school day!

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 22:54:41 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman

>>> (England) didn?t speak English, hence ?prime minster? for George 1st needed
>>> one as he didn?t know English!
>>>
>>> Mole grip is what I?ve known as to why they are called that?

>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Errr... "The King's English" refers to a book on English usage and
>> grammar, published in 1906 :-)
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_English
>
>Been attempts to rationalise English and in some cases falsely pretensions
>of grandeur going back to printing presses but Victorians did a lot of
>this! Book was just after so technically not quite!
>
>Roger Merriman

A dissertation on the American version of the language by one of our
famous authors :-)
https://www.online-literature.com/twain/3276/

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mark-Twain/Reputation-and-legacy

He started writing as a reporter for the Virgina City, Nevada newspaper. Almost everything he claimed to have done was sheer lies but he said them so well they might well have been the truth.

This spring my brother and I will ride from his home in Reno up to Virginia City to look at the Mark Twain museum.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/30/2023 6:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> A dissertation on the American version of the language by one of our
> famous authors :-)
> https://www.online-literature.com/twain/3276/

Bill Bryson is an excellent contemporary author. He's done two very nice
books on the English language:
_The Mother Tongue - English And How It Got That Way_

and on the American version of that language:
_Made in America: An Informal History of the English Language in the
United States_

Like almost all his works, they were interesting, educational and very
readable.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I was not joking. I needed to get a job done, and I used what was at
hand rather than taking time to run to a store and shop for tools. It's
called creativity.

Yes, my screwdriver handle has some slight marks on it; but it works
exactly as well as before. And I'm surprised that anyone is prissy
enough to think they need to cosmetically protect their screwdriver
handles.

Screwdrivers are tools, not trophy pieces.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Rolf Mantel]

Similar to the 'Allen Key'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_(brand)
(which is called INBUS in German, an trade name for 'Hex key Bauer &
Scharte')
https://www.inbus.de/

Rolf

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 19:47:44 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/30/2023 5:38 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 1/30/2023 12:10 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> This is the way they are intended ie the screwdriver is part of the
>>> set and
>>> intended to connect to the ratchet, though I’ve generally used it for
>>> awkward to get to places than stuff that will not shift which I normally
>>> use penetrating oil and return tomorrow which if one has the patience is
>>> often very effective!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Having to remove the control panel from a range, using a ratchet with a
>> screwdriver bit eliminated the need to pull the range all the way out
>> from the wall. A whopping US$2.99 to do the job right:
>> <https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-right-angle-screwdriver-92630.html>. Hopefully no one really uses Vise-Grips on a screwdriver handle in order to get more leverage! Pretty sure that Frank was joking.
>

You dare to question Frank's way of doing things? You will pay for
that. See below:

>I was not joking. I needed to get a job done, and I used what was at
>hand rather than taking time to run to a store and shop for tools. It's
>called creativity.
>
>Yes, my screwdriver handle has some slight marks on it; but it works
>exactly as well as before. And I'm surprised that anyone is prissy
>enough to think they need to cosmetically protect their screwdriver
>handles.

Frank insists that his way is the best way and if you dare to question
that, he'll insult and belittle you.

More classic narcissistic behavior.

[John B.]

Obviously Frankie isn't a professional. I've got tools that I've had
for more then 20 years, still in factory condition, no dings or
goobered handles.... Of course, I buy Snap-on or other quality brands
as do most professionals.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Not sure if he still publishes but I certainly enjoyed his books at the
time.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I think that Frank more than makes your point for you. Imagine anyone with mechanical abilities that would use pliers on another tool except as a last resort.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I too have tools that old and older having been originally been purchased by my father but they all show their years of use with normal wear.
Some of the double hex sockets in the most common sizes are worn to the point that you don't want to torque anything with them and have to use a single hex socket for that. And they were the original Mac or Craftsman tools. I will leave Krygowski to using lockjaw pliers on his screwdrivers.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/31/2023 6:18 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bill Bryson is an excellent contemporary author. He's done two very nice
>> books on the English language:
>> _The Mother Tongue - English And How It Got That Way_
>>
>> and on the American version of that language:
>> _Made in America: An Informal History of the English Language in the
>> United States_
>>
>> Like almost all his works, they were interesting, educational and very
>> readable.
>>
> Not sure if he still publishes but I certainly enjoyed his books at the
> time.

Well, there's this:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/sep/28/bill-bryson-breaks-retirement-to-record-christmas-audiobook

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tim R]

Yes, definitely one of my favorite popular nonfiction authors.

[Tim R]

On Monday, January 30, 2023 at 5:38:41 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
> Hopefully no one really uses Vise-Grips on a screwdriver handle in order
> to get more leverage! Pretty sure that Frank was joking.

I have one of those hand impact tools that you rap with a hammer so I don't need to.

But you can approximate the tool with a vise grips, screwdriver, and hammer.

[Tom Kunich]

I've had one of those for years. Just a couple of months ago I had to remove a Shimano BB and the spline side was stuck. One good blow loosened it completely up.

[sms]

On 1/31/2023 3:03 AM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> Obviously Frankie isn't a professional. I've got tools that I've had
> for more then 20 years, still in factory condition, no dings or
> goobered handles.... Of course, I buy Snap-on or other quality brands
> as do most professionals.

Sometimes you have to improvise, like a pipe over a breaker bar for more
leverage. But being a professional has nothing to do with it.

The reality is that most people probably have a proper screwdriver bit
and a 1/4" socket that can hold it.

If you don't have a magnetic or spring-held bit holder then wrapping a
piece of masking tape around the shank of the screwdriver bit will keep
it from falling out of a regular socket, but magnetic socket bit holders
are great <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RMYXTBZ>.

[sms]

Well some people can do that approximation but it's not one that I would
likely do.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/31/2023 12:57 PM, sms wrote:
> On 1/31/2023 3:03 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Obviously Frankie isn't a professional. I've got tools that I've had
>> for more then 20 years, still in factory condition, no dings or
>> goobered handles.... Of course, I buy Snap-on or other quality brands
>> as do most professionals.
>
> Sometimes you have to improvise, like a pipe over a breaker bar for more
> leverage. But being a professional has nothing to do with it.
>
> The reality is that most people probably have a proper screwdriver bit
> and a 1/4" socket that can hold it.

When you're lying under an old car trying to get a rusted screw loose,
of course you can crawl out, go into your basement, get the
aesthetically approved tool for the job, crawl back under and use that
tool in the aesthetically approved way.

Or if you're really prissy you can get out from under the car, change
clothes, bike or drive to the tool store, buy an even prettier and
shinier tool, bike or drive home, change back into work clothes, and get
back under the car to use that tool. You should then be sure to polish
that tool before putting it away in its display case.

If you just want to get the job done, you get creative with the tool you
have at hand.

I've never heard a mechanic say "Ooh, I don't want to nick my
screwdriver." Sheesh.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Got to admit I do like lot of history behind Christmas some of it very old
some not so old!

Roger Merriman