Scott Mathauser 40mm 'RUST' Salmon brake pads for old Weinmann centerpulls
ddog
Here are Scott Mathauser 40mm 'RUST' brake pads for old Weinmann
centerpulls. Address is in picture. No other info was sent. Hope this
saves someones life in the rain. It took me 3 weeks to get these, but
Kool Stops Continental 40mm RUST salmon brakes are unobtainable. I like
these thick solid rust pads, so will try these first, since only ones
available, lol. About $20/4 brake pads.
http://www.dooberywhatsit.com//files/scott%20mathouser%20brakes.jpg
:-)
ddog
are 4 sided pinched sheet metal enveloping pads for more rigid braking
control.
This vibration before with 3 sides sheet metal could have easily
contributed to brake 'sqealing',
but braking stability would be the main advantage of this
configuration.
Now to clean the black pad streaks off my AL wheels!
bfd
"ddog" <bailey...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1168797912.8...@11g2000cwr.googlegroups.com...
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#campagnolo
$18 for 4!
ddog
bfd wrote:
> >> http://www.dooberywhatsit.com//files/scott%20mathouser%20brakes.jpg
> >>
> >>
> How do these pads differ from Sheldon's NR replacement salmon pads:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#campagnolo
>
> $18 for 4!
Whatever fits you caliper and its rust salmon color is the main thing!
ddog
Wow, Scott Mathauser rust pads this morning were like new pads,
improved calipers, cables, and aero levers all in just a 40mm pads
change. For you guys with Weinmann centerpulls, it is solid braking
performance in a few minutes. I didn't even bother wiping black streaks
off of AL rims. Maybe Kool Stops are same thing, but I'll never switch
unless they quit making Scott Mathauser's.
mike.a...@gmail.com
>From http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#salmon
Scott-Mathauser and the "Salmon" pad.
Despite the superior design of Kool Stopbrake shoes, for years,
Scott-Mathauser brake shoes were the finest available, due to their
patented salmon-colored rubber formula. (The "secret ingredient" is
iron oxide, a.k.a. "rust", which is what gave them their distinctive
color.
Even though they were ugly and had crude hardware, they were
favorites of knowledgeable cyclists for their superior stopping power
and durability.
Scott MathauserScott-Mathauser brake shoes were manufactured under
contract by Kool Stop, but the hardware and shoe shape was determined
by Scott-Mathauser. The less expensive Scott-Mathauser shoes had rather
clunky mounting hardware; the deluxe models were overpriced and
featured bogus "cooling fins." Despite these limitations, the very
special Scott-Mathauser compound was so much better than anything else
available, that Scott-Mathauser brake shoes were widely recognized as
the best perfomers in their day...
...but Scott-Mathauser brake shoes are no longer available!
Kool Stop "Salmon": The Best Of Both!
Now, the un-equalled Scott compound is available in the excellent
Kool Stop designs. The "salmon" colored Kool Stop models are the ones
made with the Scott-Mathauser material..
The traditional Kool Stop compounds and colors remain available,
but we strongly recommend the salmon-colored Scott type.
ddog
Not so, look at this new packaging just received last week from Scott
Mathauser.
http://www.dooberywhatsit.com//files/scott%20mathouser%20brakes.jpg
For my 40mm size pads, Kool Stops Continental pads have been out of
stock for months at least.
It took 3 weeks getting the above from Scott Mathauser direct. They
just don't have US distributors now,
and just mom/pop stores in NW US for now. From what I understand non-US
business is all they need to support
operations and they are experimenting with designs suited better for
newer carbon bikes and accesories.
It would be hard for me to believe anything could be much if any better
than a solid 40mm square of material pinched with metal on all 4 sides,
for something as small as 40mm pads. And from riding this morning, I
don't see how anything could be better period: no matter what else you
did to brake system. And this is 36 year old for ALL brake
parts/cables/housing with only the pads changed and a 240 lb man
spinning pretty strong and constant in one gear (53-17t).
The braking peformance is something on the level of 20-50 times better
or more.
I was really worried about cables, housing, levers, and even calipers
before. Yet after 10 minutes putting pads on, it felt like all was top
of the line in todays braking technology all at once. Again, Kool stops
may be as good, but I'll write the above address on package when I need
new pads. It felt that good! ALthough the solid pads may
last a while I hear.
Of course these are not like most all other brake pad types used today,
so its apples and oranges to most people. I'll never consider anything
more than Weinmann centerpull calipers for ABS-like braking control on
the road. All I did was sand rim surface coating on pads down like the
ME on Sheldons' site suggested the night before while watching
Wrestling for a few minutes. There is no need for anything more than
centerpulls and these pads. I'll eventually update cable/housing for
safety concerns and new tektro R200a levers base upon Sheldon's general
recommendations, but I am in no hurry for sure. I have decided to get a
Suntour Cyclone GT or maybe a VxGT rear derailleur instead, with IRD 5
speed freewheel and SRAM p-58 or 68 chain.
Thanks for the info! But if you have 40mm Weinmann centerpulls, go get
a complete brake rebuild for about $20 + shipping. And other than pads
perhaps, you will never need to upgrade anything on your braking system
but cables and housing up to every 35 years :-)
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> Wow, Scott Mathauser rust pads this morning were like new pads,
>> improved calipers, cables, and aero levers all in just a 40mm pads
>> change. For you guys with Weinmann centerpulls, it is solid braking
>> performance in a few minutes. I didn't even bother wiping black
>> streaks off of AL rims. Maybe Kool Stops are same thing, but I'll
>> never switch unless they quit making Scott Mathauser's.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/brakeshoes.html#salmon
> Scott-Mathauser and the "Salmon" pad.
> Despite the superior design of Kool Stop brake shoes, for years,
> Scott-Mathauser brake shoes were the finest available, due to their
> patented salmon-colored rubber formula. (The "secret ingredient" is
> iron oxide, a.k.a. "rust", which is what gave them their distinctive
> color.
> Even though they were ugly and had crude hardware, they were
> favorites of knowledgeable cyclists for their superior stopping
> power and durability.
> Scott Mathauser Scott-Mathauser brake shoes were manufactured under
> contract by Kool Stop, but the hardware and shoe shape was
> determined by Scott-Mathauser. The less expensive Scott-Mathauser
> shoes had rather clunky mounting hardware; the deluxe models were
> overpriced and featured bogus "cooling fins." Despite these
> limitations, the very special Scott-Mathauser compound was so much
> better than anything else available, that Scott-Mathauser brake
> shoes were widely recognized as the best performers in their day...
> ...but Scott-Mathauser brake shoes are no longer available!
You may be looking for the wrong product. I used the original
Mathauser pads and nearly crashed with them because they could not
take the heat and melted to become glue as the pad warmed and
thereafter ceased braking as they got hotter. They were darker red
than the Kool Stop pads. That is how I discovered Kool Stop, that
subsequently made the pads for Mathauser using their tried salmon
material.
> Kool Stop "Salmon": The Best Of Both!
They ARE both!
> Now, the un-equalled Scott compound is available in the excellent
> Kool Stop designs. The "salmon" colored Kool Stop models are the
> ones made with the Scott-Mathauser material..
It is the other way around. Of course this happened many years ago in
the infancy of the Mathauser brake, of which I have an original.
> The traditional Kool Stop compounds and colors remain available, but
> we strongly recommend the salmon-colored Scott type.
It is the Kool Stop salmon pad.
Jobst Brandt
ddog
I'll keep that in mind if my Scott Mathausers melt and any Kool Stop
Continentals ever arrive.
But right now, its ABS braking action. I suppose that's why the air
fins on larger pads were devised:
trying to cool materials with heat sinks sounds like a last ditch
manufacturing engineering effort without the proper materials
engineering development and verification work beforehand. I will assume
its been addressed since don't know your specific environmental fatigue
conditions to emulate for personal verification, nor time it took to
develop symptoms. I have 50 lbs on you from your photos if recent, but
it looks like you have hills that I don't have and more endurance I
assume. Its also 80 F +/- 10 F degrees year round here for the most
part, so except for my weight, you would have more extreme braking
conditions that would be hard to emulate. I may call the rep/owner up
and ask him for my own verification. For all I knew before of what was
reported, there were no Scott Mathouser brake pads to be found. Now the
overheating is a new issue I have heard absolutely nothing about to
just a few minutes ago. Trust through verification, but most
importantly now, I can stop.
Thanks for the inside information!
Tim McNamara
"ddog" <bailey...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.dooberywhatsit.com//files/scott%20mathouser%20brakes.jpg
Those are the pads I use on most of my bikes. I got 'em mostly from
Rivendell, who appear to no longer have them in their catalog. Scott
has for a long time had poor availability, reportedly due to not having
a wholesale distribution chain. According to Grant a few years back,
the business phone was Mr. Scott's cell phone.
Ozark Bicycle
ddog wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Not so, look at this new packaging just received last week from Scott
> Mathauser.
>
> http://www.dooberywhatsit.com//files/scott%20mathouser%20brakes.jpg
>
> For my 40mm size pads, Kool Stops Continental pads have been out of
> stock for months at least.
>
> It took 3 weeks getting the above from Scott Mathauser direct. They
> just don't have US distributors now,
> and just mom/pop stores in NW US for now. From what I understand non-US
> business is all they need to support
> operations and they are experimenting with designs suited better for
> newer carbon bikes and accesories.
> It would be hard for me to believe anything could be much if any better
> than a solid 40mm square of material pinched with metal on all 4 sides,
> for something as small as 40mm pads. And from riding this morning, I
> don't see how anything could be better period: no matter what else you
> did to brake system. And this is 36 year old for ALL brake
> parts/cables/housing with only the pads changed
Do you think that maybe if you replaced your *36 year old pads* with
*any* new pads there might have been a big improvement? Just maybe?
ddog
Tim,
I cannot believe how tremendously well they stop, like a virtual cloud.
Jobst I believe vacations in the Alps riding bikes and don't know if he
had steel or wood rims.
As well, earlier pads he used had cotton or even asbestos fiber which
was found to be faulty.
I've been informed Scott Mathauser gets patent payments from Kool Stop,
so that's why the lack of urgency to even set up a web site. So for $20
a wheel set of pads,
I can't think of anything safer imo. Evidently you are an avid biker
and yours didn't melt
or you wouldn't keep buying them. Maybe it takes time to write Scott
Mathauser (address on first post photo link) and then 3 weeks lead
time, but there are no other choices for 40mm rust pads currently to
consider.
Of course I'll keep my eyes open, but they are in newer packaging than
Rivendell
showed in there catalogue packaged in a bag. It could be an upgraded
product or just packaging
alone. Its hard to improve some products except for packaging. Those
pads just saved me allot of time
and present value of my money worrying about my braking system. Its
killer now and no concern what so ever at this point!
Thanks for the feedback,
Phil Bailey
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> I'll keep that in mind if my Scott Mathausers melt and any Kool Stop
> Continentals ever arrive.
> But right now, its ABS braking action. I suppose that's why the air
> fins on larger pads were devised:
> Trying to cool materials with heat sinks sounds like a last ditch
> manufacturing engineering effort without the proper materials
> engineering development and verification work beforehand.
That should give you an idea what sort of engineering went into these
brakes. Brake material is an insulator. Heat sinks on the back side
are mental crutches. You know that rims get so hot that they will
burn ones hand. That means that the brake pad is far hotter because
the heat is generated in the softer material of a sliding pair. There
is no problem in holding ones hand on the back of a brake pad. It
takes a long time for heat to go through an insulator as good as a
brake pad.
> I will assume its been addressed since don't know your specific
> environmental fatigue conditions to emulate for personal
> verification, nor time it took to develop symptoms. I have 50 lbs
> on you from your photos if recent, but it looks like you have hills
> that I don't have and more endurance I assume. Its also 80 F +/- 10
> F degrees year round here for the most part, so except for my
> weight, you would have more extreme braking conditions that would be
> hard to emulate. I may call the rep/owner up and ask him for my own
> verification. For all I knew before of what was reported, there
> were no Scott Mathauser brake pads to be found. Now the overheating
> is a new issue I have heard absolutely nothing about to just a few
> minutes ago. Trust through verification, but most importantly now,
> I can stop.
Not to worry, in the short term brake pad temperatures are about
equal. Only the amount of energy transferred from the pad to the rim
is different. Fortunately Kool Stop Continentals last a long time if
you aren't riding in muck.
> Thanks for the inside information!
Jobst Brandt
ddog
They were scarey somewhat but ok. There's better I'm sure in between,
but they were brand new. I replace pads often just for dryrotting if
they have not been used in up to a year.
Kind of like my bike never felt as good before a Dura Ace crank, my
brakes have never come close to these pads performance in any vehicle I
have per weight ratio comparison.
If you have 40mm Weinmann centerpulls, you owe it to yourself to try
some of these.
Ozark Bicycle
ddog wrote:
> New black pads from LBS was first thing I did after new tires/tubes.
> They were scarey somewhat but ok. There's better I'm sure in between,
> but they were brand new. I replace pads often just for dryrotting if
> they have not been used in up to a year.
Earlier, you wrote: "this is 36 year old for ALL brake parts". That's
where I got the notion you were replacing 36 year old OE pads with new
pads for the first time.
>
> Kind of like my bike never felt as good before a Dura Ace crank, my
> brakes have never come close to these pads performance in any vehicle I
> have per weight ratio comparison.
>
> If you have 40mm Weinmann centerpulls, you owe it to yourself to try
> some of these.
>
I have vintage centerpulls on one of my bikes, no salmon pads, and the
bike stops quite nicely, with good modulation. In fact, I could lock
either wheel if I so chose. Other than a possible advantage in the wet
(and I do not use this bike if there is a strong rain threat), what
advantage can these "magic" salmon pads offer?
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>>> Do you think that maybe if you replaced your *36 year old pads*
>>> with *any* new pads there might have been a big improvement? Just
>>> maybe?
>> New black pads from LBS was first thing I did after new
>> tires/tubes. They were scarey somewhat but ok. There's better I'm
>> sure in between, but they were brand new. I replace pads often just
>> for dryrotting if they have not been used in up to a year.
> Earlier, you wrote: "this is 36 year old for ALL brake parts".
> That's where I got the notion you were replacing 36 year old OE pads
> with new pads for the first time.
>> Kind of like my bike never felt as good before a Dura Ace crank, my
>> brakes have never come close to these pads performance in any
>> vehicle I have per weight ratio comparison.
>> If you have 40mm Weinmann centerpulls, you owe it to yourself to
>> try some of these.
> I have vintage centerpulls on one of my bikes, no salmon pads, and
> the bike stops quite nicely, with good modulation. In fact, I could
> lock either wheel if I so chose. Other than a possible advantage in
> the wet (and I do not use this bike if there is a strong rain
> threat), what advantage can these "magic" salmon pads offer?
How do you lock the front wheel when riding at any reasonable speed.
Static brake tests don't mean much when tit comes to friction
material, control, and wear.
Jobst Brandt
Ozark Bicycle
jobst.brandt picks the nits:
Oh, excuuuuse me....I should have said probably could lock either wheel
if I so chose. Never tried it, don't plan to.
>
> Jobst Brandt
Tim McNamara
"ddog" <bailey...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <1169340295....@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > "ddog" <bailey...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.dooberywhatsit.com//files/scott%20mathouser%20brakes.jp
> > > g
> >
> > Those are the pads I use on most of my bikes. I got 'em mostly
> > from Rivendell, who appear to no longer have them in their catalog.
> > Scott has for a long time had poor availability, reportedly due to
> > not having a wholesale distribution chain. According to Grant a
> > few years back, the business phone was Mr. Scott's cell phone.
>
> I cannot believe how tremendously well they stop, like a virtual
> cloud. Jobst I believe vacations in the Alps riding bikes and don't
> know if he had steel or wood rims. As well, earlier pads he used had
> cotton or even asbestos fiber which was found to be faulty. I've been
> informed Scott Mathauser gets patent payments from Kool Stop,
Jobst uses Mavic MA2 rims, which are aluminum. If you look at his Alps
ride reports on www.trentobike.org and read his first Alps report,
you'll find he replaced his aluminum tubular rims with wooden ones
because the heat melted the glue holding his tires on the rims.
I don't have any contacts in the industry or any definitive sources. My
understanding is the reverse of Jobst's, which is that KoolStop uses
Scott/Mathauser's material and not that Scott replaced their material
with one by KoolStop. Jobst has been involved in the industry for many
years and might easily have more access to information than me.
> so that's why the lack of urgency to even set up a web site. So for
> $20 a wheel set of pads, I can't think of anything safer imo.
> Evidently you are an avid biker and yours didn't melt or you wouldn't
> keep buying them.
Jobst was referring to the first iteration of the Scott/Mathauser brake
pads which was some 30 years ago. They looked like this:
http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Scott-Matha
user/1975-12.jpg.html
I had a set on my bike and found they worked fine, but then I was riding
in flat terrain near Chicago and then in southeastern MN bluff country.
I didn't have the very long descents that Jobst has, so I probably never
pushed the material anywhere near as close to the limit.
> Of course I'll keep my eyes open, but they are in newer packaging
> than Rivendell showed in there catalogue packaged in a bag. It could
> be an upgraded product or just packaging alone. Its hard to improve
> some products except for packaging. Those pads just saved me allot of
> time and present value of my money worrying about my braking system.
> Its killer now and no concern what so ever at this point!
The pads look just the same as mine, the packaging is just different
(mine came in a plastic bag rather than on a blister pack.
ddog
Thanks for the accurate information. I don't ride a bicycle for riding
miles of downhills
consecutively anyway. There is no pedal spinning involved in that and
efficient spinning is why I think
bicycles are so magical.
Constant mountainous downhills will heat up any vehicles brakes, except
bikes don't have a low
gear negative force like any other vehicle. It would just be like a
dangerous roller coaster ride for me.
So saying they melt is a little deceiving under any circumstances like
that without indicating a sensitivity range of how other different
brakes do. When you melting tires off the rims, brake pads melting may
not be unreasonable.
Thanks!!
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
> Thanks for the accurate information. I don't ride a bicycle for
> riding miles of downhills consecutively anyway. There is no pedal
> spinning involved in that and efficient spinning is why I think
> bicycles are so magical.
> Constant mountainous downhills will heat up any vehicles brakes,
> except bikes don't have a low gear negative force like any other
> vehicle. It would just be like a dangerous roller coaster ride for
> me.
> So saying they melt is a little deceiving under any circumstances
> like that without indicating a sensitivity range of how other
> different brakes do. When you melting tires off the rims, brake
> pads melting may not be unreasonable.
Melting occurred within a second of a hard brake application entering
the first curve of a mountain descent, so much so, that I nearly
crashed as the front wheel slipped because I was already leaning
fairly steeply into the turn. My friend who was right behind,
remarked that he had never seen such a close call.
Subsequent brake applications were done with more caution and the
brake pads were removed after the ride. I still have one sample with
the glossy flow marks on the face.
Jobst Brandt
ddog
Ok, I can understand your opinions now and a lack of effort to ever
revisit the product again: for your downhill style of riding
especially. Of course that brings up other several other questions, but
balanced details may not be relevant since products likley evolved
since the time differential is large and in product introduction stage.
Good products don't start off being perfect especially when new
material compositions are involved. Material processes are a black art
in common products like AL, so this should be as if not more
complicated. If AL cooling curve is slightly altered in time or
temperature for any of several enviromental factors, you are molding
scrap metal. Kool Stop thought it was worth the patent rights, so if
you like Kool Stop Salmon pads then that itself would indicate there is
reasonable evidence to conclude your opinion about Scott Mathouser may
be wrong based purely upon different tints of rust color materials and
your ancient specific product experience. Or at least 50/50.
Not having the chance to further investigate yet, I again appreciate
your product pioneering experience. You could have saved the lives of
many, since I'm fairly sure you let the company know about your
experience. Other than source process information, I will conduct
stratified randomly distributed tests, but it will be hard to emulate
the Alps or any mountain drop off: nor would any 240 lb man ever try
even if the mountains were easily accessible. From living in the
Appalacians, I respect mother mountain as well as gravity itself.
Thanks!!