Door Zone experiences

[Frank Krygowski]

https://missionlocal.org/2022/09/dooring-accident-sf/?fbclid=IwAR2awBKUTAAq6u4TOAnMjvmoTZQbr-5GMQGTcpjFULEy-se49712v1dO_xU

and

https://www.velonews.com/news/road/chris-froome-doored-by-driver-during-training-ride-and-left-with-minor-injuries/?fbclid=IwAR3gE5WdNV5JwKF2IyKoo8azzx_AmUDuMbC3kfh0h5kvgHqKdMpGXxcxnzU

If a door pops open directly in front of a cyclist moving at reasonable
speed, he can't stop in time. Even the best can't stop in time.

And most of the mitigations proposed in the first article will make no
difference. It makes no sense to try to train every Uber rider in the
world to train every one of his passengers. Instead, train the cyclists
to not ride in the door zone.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Are you going to set up and lead training classes for Tour de France
winners.

[Sepp Ruf]

Catrike Rider wrote
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 23:16:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> https://missionlocal.org/2022/09/dooring-accident-sf/
>>
>> and
>>
>> https://www.velonews.com/news/road/chris-froome-doored-by-driver-during-training-ride-and-left-with-minor-injuries/

>>
>> If a door pops open directly in front of a cyclist moving at reasonable
>> speed, he can't stop in time. Even the best can't stop in time.
>>
>> And most of the mitigations proposed in the first article will make no
>> difference. It makes no sense to try to train every Uber rider in the
>> world to train every one of his passengers. Instead, train the cyclists
>> to not ride in the door zone.

Fine, and please, while you consult with Clusterzuck General Hospital,
please take a moment to ask their chief surgeon how you might cut that
chronic "fbclid" appendicitis off your links!

> Are you going to set up and lead training classes for Tour de France
> winners.

Froome's frankness about "beautiful day, almost home" absent-mindedness
and "surprise physics" probably was more helpful. I do have the
impression that bicycle racers (and the show-off sort of messengers) are
wrongly taken as role models for supposed "rider souplesse" concerning
everyday passings of motor vehicles.
<https://youtu.be/Hksw3Ex7ULo?t=1455>
Like many of her elders, the youngster at 24m15s probably has not taken
TdF riders as examples, but simply never grasped the real possibility of
flying into the edge of a glass and metal frame or getting bounced in
front of a moving vehicle. So yes, beginners should be practically
tought, as well as abstractly.

[Roger Merriman]

I’ve a friend who got doored in a multi lane road was on the slip road and
someone opened the door in the traffic waiting for the lights, sadly did
significant damage to his arm enough that it’s never recovered fully.

This bus stop which I occasionally pass is spectacularly bad example of a
floating bus stop in that your channelled past the bus stop and a narrow
bus island into the door zone of parked cars!

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/9YbG1EC7284HWyAZ9?g_st=ic>

Roger Merriman

[Sir Ridesalot]

A lot of bicyclists do NOT realize how big the door-zone can be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPA-ZcYGT94

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CudJvSbS2aY

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

As you can see, Frank has been doing this for as long as this group has existed. He is insane and people like the stupid six believe that they should agree with him that driving in the traffic lane is much safer.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

By all means, sparky, travel as close to parked cars as you can on a regular basis. Please, do it for us, just to prove that riding in the lane of traffic is less safe. We'll wait.....

[Tom Kunich]

Well at least you proved Frank's assertions that not taking a lane from cars results in absolute carnage. That bike lanes are the most dangerous inventions ever created and that every parked car contains a vicious felon just waiting to kill a passing cyclist by throwing open a door in front of them. Frank has spent his entire lifetime on this board screaming that riding in a bike lane means instant death. Your demonstration of an hour without a single death, nor a single car door thrown open in front of a passing cyclist demonstrates that Frank, in fact, doesn't ride bicycles but merely wants people to think he does in order to remain somewhat relevant.

[Tom Kunich]

I carefully awaited my turn at a 4 way intersection and while traveling across a woman simply drove into me while I was directly in front of her. Shit happens and you don't blame the system when it is clearly the individual.

[Tom Kunich]

Obviously riding a bicycle is so dangerous that you should never ride again.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

He didn't mention anything about bike lanes in this discussion, you fucking idiot.

shut the fuck up tommy.

[Catrike Rider]

I choose not to incite road rage.

[Tom Kunich]

Bike lanes reduce this to a minimum.

[Roger Merriman]

Certainly in my friends case yes sometimes it’s into act of god territory.

In that it’s such a stupid and odd and unexpected thing to do, not
unsurprisingly he got a fairly large insurance payment from her.

Though other places such as the bus stop I’ve linked feel that they are
positivity attempting to harm one!

I generally bypass it either on the road or via the gravel track across the
green, as though I do generally like cycle infrastructure this is one of
few bits of newer stuff that just doesn’t work.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 08:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

Bike trails reduce it to zero..

[Roger Merriman]

I really don’t think he is!

While Frank and myself have different views and would seem experience of
bike lanes and infrastructure.

He’s suggesting that folks don’t ride in the gutter and out of the door
zone which isn’t remotely contentious it’s been in the uk Highway Code for
essentially ever.

There are some normally older cycle lanes that steer folks into the door
zone, though can’t think of any Locally or even about london over last few
years.


Roger Merriman.

[Roger Merriman]

As do cycleways part of my commute is along the Parkway which had been
intended as a motorway so has cycleway parallel and separated and it also
crosses under a large motorway junction so avoids a few junctions, it makes
my commute doable by bike as the Parkway is grim I generally choose to
drive on the M25 around if I have a car as it such horrible road, by bike
it’s actually pleasant as your mostly in the tree lined tunnel next to the
road.

<https://maps.app.goo.gl/K1NLVo1op2SPyeBr7?g_st=ic>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2022 11:57 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

>> As you can see, Frank has been doing this for as long as this group has
>> existed. He is insane and people like the stupid six believe that they
>> should agree with him that driving in the traffic lane is much safer.
>>
> I really don’t think he is!
>
> While Frank and myself have different views and would seem experience of
> bike lanes and infrastructure.
>
> He’s suggesting that folks don’t ride in the gutter and out of the door
> zone which isn’t remotely contentious it’s been in the uk Highway Code for
> essentially ever.

Tom is too timid to accept his right to use a traffic lane. Others are
too timid to ride on a road at all.

>
> There are some normally older cycle lanes that steer folks into the door
> zone, though can’t think of any Locally or even about london over last few
> years.

I'm lucky that my normal riding territory has very few bike lanes. But
other cities I regularly visit have some terrible examples. Every week
I'm in a town that has a bike lane at the right of what is functionally
a right turn only lane. (It's theoretically possible for a motorist to
go straight, but only into a short distance dead end.) That's within a
quarter mile of a park used by kids who won't know about the danger, and
it's not the only bad example in that town. Another city I regularly
visit and sometime ride has miles of door zone bike lanes.

A third city I visited Wednesday has some streets that are amazingly
wide - probably 30 feet in one direction - that now have motor vehicle
traffic striped next to the center line, a bike lane striped at the
curb, and at least 15 feet of crosshatched "nobody can use this"
pavement between. This is less than a year old. I'm sure it sounds
perfectly safe to many timid cyclists, but I was driving in the dark and
looking for a hard-to-see street to make my right turn. I was forced to
turn right from the center of the road while somehow looking back over
my right shoulder to make sure no unlit nighttime cyclists were passing
in the "nice safe" bike lane. BTW, the fellow cyclist who was my
passenger in my car was similarly horrified at the design.

I can give many more examples, but you get my point. Some bike
facilities are OK or even valuable, but the current attitude seems to be
"any bike facility is a good bike facility" and "the weirder [or more
'innovative'] the better."

And the common fear of riding where motor vehicles tires touch the
pavement? That's both insane and shameful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.

Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
statement is a deliberate lie.

Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.

Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
control a traffic lane.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 11:57 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As you can see, Frank has been doing this for as long as this group has
>>> existed. He is insane and people like the stupid six believe that they
>>> should agree with him that driving in the traffic lane is much safer.
>>>
>> I really don’t think he is!
>>
>> While Frank and myself have different views and would seem experience of
>> bike lanes and infrastructure.
>>
>> He’s suggesting that folks don’t ride in the gutter and out of the door
>> zone which isn’t remotely contentious it’s been in the uk Highway Code for
>> essentially ever.
>
> Tom is too timid to accept his right to use a traffic lane. Others are
> too timid to ride on a road at all.
>

I don’t think he’s read what you posted so is replying to what he thinks
you’ve said.

>>
>> There are some normally older cycle lanes that steer folks into the door
>> zone, though can’t think of any Locally or even about london over last few
>> years.
>
> I'm lucky that my normal riding territory has very few bike lanes. But
> other cities I regularly visit have some terrible examples. Every week
> I'm in a town that has a bike lane at the right of what is functionally
> a right turn only lane. (It's theoretically possible for a motorist to
> go straight, but only into a short distance dead end.) That's within a
> quarter mile of a park used by kids who won't know about the danger, and
> it's not the only bad example in that town. Another city I regularly
> visit and sometime ride has miles of door zone bike lanes.

London CS7 certainly used to be notorious for essentially just a painted
line with miles of door zone and other such poor things.

But these have changed, I suspect that America Lags behind in this regard
in terms of genuine useful stuff, I’m not claiming all of the
cycleways/lanes are because clearly they are not, on my commute I have
parks linked to a old cycleway (old and segregated and bypasses various
junctions) the parks and cycleway work very well, cycleway in particular is
direct and efficient, and avoids a fairly horrific road plus is faster!

There are some armadillos protected bits, they are fine keep the occasional
random from drifting over, but not deal breakers by any means.

And few fairly pointless painted lines which realistically though generally
benign don’t add anything either!

And few urban/suburban roads which link this all up.

Are more modern and much more linked stuff further into london and running
outer-inner I’m atypical in that I’m traveling outer to outer hence a
runner could easily beat public transport which is a good 2hr even a fast
Walker wouldn’t be to far behind to be honest.

Hence bike with occasional car.

>
> A third city I visited Wednesday has some streets that are amazingly
> wide - probably 30 feet in one direction - that now have motor vehicle
> traffic striped next to the center line, a bike lane striped at the
> curb, and at least 15 feet of crosshatched "nobody can use this"
> pavement between. This is less than a year old. I'm sure it sounds
> perfectly safe to many timid cyclists, but I was driving in the dark and
> looking for a hard-to-see street to make my right turn. I was forced to
> turn right from the center of the road while somehow looking back over
> my right shoulder to make sure no unlit nighttime cyclists were passing
> in the "nice safe" bike lane. BTW, the fellow cyclist who was my
> passenger in my car was similarly horrified at the design.
>
> I can give many more examples, but you get my point. Some bike
> facilities are OK or even valuable, but the current attitude seems to be
> "any bike facility is a good bike facility" and "the weirder [or more
> 'innovative'] the better."
>
> And the common fear of riding where motor vehicles tires touch the
> pavement? That's both insane and shameful.
>

Got a Google maps link?

Possibly they don’t want cars using that road at all or as does happen
occasionally make complete balls up of things, which happens to all
infrastructure, upgraded road where I’m from has made access for example on
to the old tramways which used to be used by horse riders and well folks
having a walk, the access is now from another part of the town via a slip
road which is rather disappointing really!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

In that post we’re replying to that is what he’s posted, ie move out of the
gutter.

What he said “train the cyclists not to not ride in the door zone.” And
realistically at that point a bike lane makes it worse as folks try to keep
to it than move out.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2022 1:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>

>> A third city I visited Wednesday has some streets that are amazingly
>> wide - probably 30 feet in one direction - that now have motor vehicle
>> traffic striped next to the center line, a bike lane striped at the
>> curb, and at least 15 feet of crosshatched "nobody can use this"
>> pavement between. This is less than a year old. I'm sure it sounds
>> perfectly safe to many timid cyclists, but I was driving in the dark and
>> looking for a hard-to-see street to make my right turn. I was forced to
>> turn right from the center of the road while somehow looking back over
>> my right shoulder to make sure no unlit nighttime cyclists were passing
>> in the "nice safe" bike lane. BTW, the fellow cyclist who was my
>> passenger in my car was similarly horrified at the design.
>>

> Got a Google maps link?

https://goo.gl/maps/Bm3uwcu3T5jPS5HP9

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Most of the commuting I've done has been on double lane roads with no
bike lanes. The only bike lines I've ever ridden in were riding from
Key Largo to Key West and back.

[Catrike Rider]

<LOL> Shameful?

[Catrike Rider]

I take it that Krygowski is too cowardly to ride is the so-called door
lane...

[Tom Kunich]

Can you imagine the man who claims that he rides too slow to fall off is calling a normal rider shameful?

[Catrike Rider]

I think it would be shameful to take Krygowski's advice.

[Roger Merriman]

Sadly all at least 5 years ago, I’d certainly agree doesn’t particularly
look troubling looks quite benign though photos can be misleading but
certainly if planning a route I’d not expect that to be somewhere I’d need
to be cautious far from it looks like a wide quiet road.

Roger Merriman

[Sepp Ruf]

Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 9/30/2022 1:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A third city I visited Wednesday has some streets that are amazingly
>>>> wide - probably 30 feet in one direction - that now have motor vehicle
>>>> traffic striped next to the center line, a bike lane striped at the
>>>> curb, and at least 15 feet of crosshatched "nobody can use this"
>>>> pavement between. This is less than a year old. I'm sure it sounds
>>>> perfectly safe to many timid cyclists, but I was driving in the dark and
>>>> looking for a hard-to-see street to make my right turn. I was forced to
>>>> turn right from the center of the road while somehow looking back over
>>>> my right shoulder to make sure no unlit nighttime cyclists were passing
>>>> in the "nice safe" bike lane. BTW, the fellow cyclist who was my
>>>> passenger in my car was similarly horrified at the design.

A more unobstucted view than the same area occupied by bushes or parked
cars. If you aren't able to look back over your right shoulder, you
should not be driving in cities, at least not that compact electric
Korean APC of yours. Did you previously think you could see everyone,
including ninja skaters jumping in your way from the sidewalk, by merely
looking in the mirrors?

>>> Got a Google maps link?
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/Bm3uwcu3T5jPS5HP9

Entering Florida Ave, the 2019 street view even shows an extra lamp.
Might have provided more glare than enlightenment.

> Sadly all at least 5 years ago, I’d certainly agree doesn’t particularly
> look troubling looks quite benign though photos can be misleading but
> certainly if planning a route I’d not expect that to be somewhere I’d need
> to be cautious far from it looks like a wide quiet road.

Up the block before 15th St SW, one parker understands that the stripes
facilitate diagonal parking. Kenmore Blvd is well-prepared for Akron's
coming economic miracle!

[Frank Krygowski]

On my former bike commute route to and from work, there was a similar
overly wide street, left over from the days when the street carried
heavy industrial traffic. It was very nice riding, and I never
considered it needed any improvement. Critically, motor traffic swept
wide portions of it clean of gravel and debris. There was plenty of lane
width to safely share. (Special note to Tom: It was NOT necessary to
take that lane by riding lane center.)

I think I'd feel the same bicycling on the road I described and linked
above, before it had the weird striping. Significantly, there would have
been no need to sweep a bike lane of debris - something that quickly
becomes the bottom priority in many cities.

About the example road being benign: None of these weirdly "innovative"
facilities cause daily deaths. Bicycling really is quite safe, as I keep
saying. But again, the first time I drove it was at night. I was
searching for a street, and there was no active street light nor visible
street sign. By the time I realized I had to make a quick right turn, I
worried that I may have missed a separate Right Turn Only lane, because
the stripes were telling me to be at the center line - a strange place
for a right turn across 20 feet of pavement. (I remember saying out loud
to my passengers "Am I really supposed to turn right from here??")

By that time, if a night cyclists with no lights (which is common)
happened to be riding straight in the bike lane, he'd have been
essentially invisible. In that case the design would not have been
benign. The cyclist would be less noticeable to a motorist, less
relevant even if he had been seen, and more at risk.

But overall, I can't see a logical reason for the weirdness of all that
striping. It seems to be just weirdness just to be "innovative." It's
fashion.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2022 2:07 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
>>
>> And the common fear of riding where motor vehicles tires touch the
>> pavement? That's both insane and shameful.
>
> <LOL> Shameful?

Yes. It indicates a weak minded, fearful and paranoid person. That would
be true even for those who are so scared that they won't ride without a
gun.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

But Frank no bicycle ever "controlled" a traffic lane. The best they
can possible do is ride out into the lane in the hope that no auto or
truck will contest their act.

control ~ verb exercise authoritative control or power over
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

<eyeroll> Krygowski seems to think his opinions are significant, but
then, not having the physical ability required to engage in what
appears to be his only interest has probably affected his mental and
emotional stability. Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
week 40/50 mile rides. Don't be jealous, it's just that I've taken
better care of my body than you...

[AMuzi]

Ditto for controlling a crosswalk:

https://www.thelegaladvocate.com/news/breaking/sylwia-wagner-jarosz-killed-hit-by-pickup-truck-bicycle-accident-lake-cook-road-arlington-heights

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 06:02:35 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Last weekend, while driving in rural Wisconson I saw some deer that
controlled the entire road. I have family members who can testify to
the damage a 180/200 lb warm body can cause.

[AMuzi]

+1

Big chunk of hurtling venison is a virtual suicide bomb. And
the bastards are everywhere this year.

A 'normal' year in WI has 50,000 'incidents', 20,000
suicidal deer die in attacks on autos, trucks and motorcycles.

(Motorcycle-deer crashes have a motorcyclist mortality rate
20x auto/truck pilots who hit deer.)

[Catrike Rider]

I've never hit one, but I've had some close calls.

[Frank Krygowski]

First, I think your mental definition of "control" must be far too
absolute. Nothing is ever 100% reliable. You "control" the gear changing
of your bicycle, but you have certainly missed shifts in the past.
Everything from light switches to nuclear weapons malfunction from time
to time.

Second, the degree of control I enjoy when riding lane center has been
damned near perfect. No motorist has ever run me down from behind, which
is what the timid fear. Only on very rare occasions has a motorist
behaved in an unacceptable way, such as by passing with too little
clearance.

I'll give you a break, sort of, by saying that I don't know if it would
work in Thailand or Singapore. I've never been there. But I have
memories of controlling the lane in Italy when drivers of huge tractor
trailers waited patiently behind my wife and me until it was safe to
pass. I have memories of the same thing when descending the west side of
Lolo Pass in Idaho. And I mention those two because we were specifically
warned by hand wringers "The truckers don't care! They'll just run you
over!"

If I remembered them, I could give at least tens of thousands of other
examples. But in real life, they're not very memorable. The drivers just
wait until it's safe to pass. A tiny minority may honk their horn - at
which point I just shrug, as in "Sorry, there's nothing I can do. I'm
riding here."

(For Tom's benefit, since he "forgets", I'll repeat yet again: If it's
safe to share the lane, I do move to the right and let faster traffic
pass. If it's not safe, state laws allow me to do what's reasonable:
ride lane center and control the lane.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
> week 40/50 mile rides.

.. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike paths.

My, how manly! :-)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 18:40:56 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

Yeas ago I was living in Maine and there was a story in the Bangor
newspaper about a guy driving in some little village in N. Maine and
he came up behind a moose what was blocking the lane. He was blowing
the horn and the moose wouldn't move over so he eased up behind the
moose and sort of bumped him a bit with the car. The moose kicked the
radiator out and went on down the street (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

On 9/30/2022 7:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
>> week 40/50 mile rides.
>
> .. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike
> paths.
>
> My, how manly! :-)
>

He's alive to contribute to RBT.

Our Federal system allows a great range of cultural
experimentation, from New York:

https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/message-from-democrats-where-emt-alison-russo-elling-was-slain/

To Florida:

https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/looters-arrested-in-fort-myers-in-wake-of-hurricane-ian-chaos/

Mr Cat has made his choice.

[John B.]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 20:10:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski

You are playing with semantics. You don't control anything. You ride
out into traffic hoping that nobody will run over you.

As I posted the word "control" is normally defined as "exercise
authoritative control or power over". If you want to define it as
"well I hope he won't hit me when I ride out in front of him" feel
free to do it but don't be surprised when someone says that you don't
know what you are talking about.

As for "foreign" countries, Indonesia - because of where we lived I
rode on roads with very little traffic.
Singapore - very specific rules about where you can and cannot ride
and riding in traffic you were expected to NOT impede vehicular
traffic.
Thailand - the laws require bicycle and motorcycles to ride "on the
side of the road" which means that you will not ride out in the middle
of the lane and impede other traffic.

I might add that in Thailand if an auto runs into a bicycle it is
deemed, pending other evidence, to be the fault of the larger vehicle
and the driver will be responsible for any and all costs to the
cyclist. In the event of a motor vehicle hitting and killing a
cyclist, again pending other evidence, the driver may be charged with
"causing a death" which has a maximum penalty of 10 years in jail.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

Francis is the very definition of cowardly, if you or I were standing in front of him and challenged him to say the things he says to our faces, he would piss his pants and start crying. Imagine someone like that using the term "shameful".

[Tom Kunich]

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 20:12:42 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
>> week 40/50 mile rides.
>
>.. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike paths.
>
>My, how manly! :-)

So says Krygowski who can hardly ride anywhere anymore, and apparently
imagines that bicycling is some sort of test of masculinity. Don't be
jealous, Frank, keep riding the couch and dreaming of your
yesterdays..

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 19:41:09 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/30/2022 7:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
>>> week 40/50 mile rides.
>>
>> .. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike
>> paths.
>>
>> My, how manly! :-)
>>
>
>He's alive to contribute to RBT.
>
>Our Federal system allows a great range of cultural
>experimentation, from New York:
>
>https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/message-from-democrats-where-emt-alison-russo-elling-was-slain/
>
>To Florida:
>
>https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/looters-arrested-in-fort-myers-in-wake-of-hurricane-ian-chaos/
>
>Mr Cat has made his choice.

If people considered bicyclying a test of masculiity, I'd probably see
less skin tight lycra and padded pants.

[Catrike Rider]

Challenging leftist weenies is not something I do. Apparently, my
mere existance and my ability, at 78 years old, to outperform him is
enough for Krygowski to hate me. OTOH, I don't hate him, I kind of
feel sorry for him.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 20:10:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Obviously, Krygowski's experience doesn't include riding busy two lane
roads where the traffic includes large trucks and and other vehicles
going 60/80 MPH. I surmise that most of the riding he's done has been
on urban and sububurban streets with speed limits of 30 MPH or below.

I can't even imagine a bicyclist leading a parade of a dozen or more
vehicles at 20 MPH in a 55 MPH or faster zone.

I'm pretty sure that any riding he's done away from the city and/or
suburbs avoids such roads, which destroys his whole nonsensical riding
as transportation rhetoric. Preplanning a route, then, becomes a ride
for the pleasure of pumping the pedals, which is what a bike trail
provides without the hassle of cars, trucks, and the mindless chatter
of other riders.

[Catrike Rider]

..and, I'm willing to help Frank with his problem. It didn't take
long to come up with a solution.

Stop living on your memories, Frank, get out and ride. Here's a
combination couch and bike that you shouldn't have any trouble with.

https://tinyurl.com/2efhxw9n

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 1:34:54 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > On 9/30/2022 11:57 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> As you can see, Frank has been doing this for as long as this group has
> >>> existed. He is insane and people like the stupid six believe that they
> >>> should agree with him that driving in the traffic lane is much safer.
> >>>
> >> I really don’t think he is!
> >>
> >> While Frank and myself have different views and would seem experience of
> >> bike lanes and infrastructure.
> >>
> >> He’s suggesting that folks don’t ride in the gutter and out of the door
> >> zone which isn’t remotely contentious it’s been in the uk Highway Code for
> >> essentially ever.
> >
> > Tom is too timid to accept his right to use a traffic lane. Others are
> > too timid to ride on a road at all.
> >

> I don’t think he’s read what you posted so is replying to what he thinks
> you’ve said.

No, he read it, he just likes to make up things then argue against them and claim internet win points. It's called the Strawman Fallacy. He does that to pretty much everyone he disagrees with.

> >>
> >> There are some normally older cycle lanes that steer folks into the door
> >> zone, though can’t think of any Locally or even about london over last few
> >> years.
> >
> > I'm lucky that my normal riding territory has very few bike lanes. But
> > other cities I regularly visit have some terrible examples. Every week
> > I'm in a town that has a bike lane at the right of what is functionally
> > a right turn only lane. (It's theoretically possible for a motorist to
> > go straight, but only into a short distance dead end.) That's within a
> > quarter mile of a park used by kids who won't know about the danger, and
> > it's not the only bad example in that town. Another city I regularly
> > visit and sometime ride has miles of door zone bike lanes.

> London CS7 certainly used to be notorious for essentially just a painted
> line with miles of door zone and other such poor things.
>
> But these have changed, I suspect that America Lags behind in this regard
> in terms of genuine useful stuff, I’m not claiming all of the
> cycleways/lanes are because clearly they are not, on my commute I have
> parks linked to a old cycleway (old and segregated and bypasses various
> junctions) the parks and cycleway work very well, cycleway in particular is
> direct and efficient, and avoids a fairly horrific road plus is faster!
>
> There are some armadillos protected bits, they are fine keep the occasional
> random from drifting over, but not deal breakers by any means.
>
> And few fairly pointless painted lines which realistically though generally
> benign don’t add anything either!
>
> And few urban/suburban roads which link this all up.
>
> Are more modern and much more linked stuff further into london and running
> outer-inner I’m atypical in that I’m traveling outer to outer hence a
> runner could easily beat public transport which is a good 2hr even a fast
> Walker wouldn’t be to far behind to be honest.
>
> Hence bike with occasional car.

> >
> > A third city I visited Wednesday has some streets that are amazingly
> > wide - probably 30 feet in one direction - that now have motor vehicle
> > traffic striped next to the center line, a bike lane striped at the
> > curb, and at least 15 feet of crosshatched "nobody can use this"
> > pavement between. This is less than a year old. I'm sure it sounds
> > perfectly safe to many timid cyclists, but I was driving in the dark and
> > looking for a hard-to-see street to make my right turn. I was forced to
> > turn right from the center of the road while somehow looking back over
> > my right shoulder to make sure no unlit nighttime cyclists were passing
> > in the "nice safe" bike lane. BTW, the fellow cyclist who was my
> > passenger in my car was similarly horrified at the design.
> >

> > I can give many more examples, but you get my point. Some bike
> > facilities are OK or even valuable, but the current attitude seems to be
> > "any bike facility is a good bike facility" and "the weirder [or more
> > 'innovative'] the better."
> >

> > And the common fear of riding where motor vehicles tires touch the
> > pavement? That's both insane and shameful.
> >

> Got a Google maps link?
>

> Possibly they don’t want cars using that road at all or as does happen
> occasionally make complete balls up of things, which happens to all
> infrastructure, upgraded road where I’m from has made access for example on
> to the old tramways which used to be used by horse riders and well folks
> having a walk, the access is now from another part of the town via a slip
> road which is rather disappointing really!
>
> Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 2:09:59 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>
> >> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.
> >
> >Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
> >statement is a deliberate lie.
> >
> >Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
> >me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.
> >
> >Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
> >control a traffic lane.

> I take it that Krygowski is too cowardly to ride is the so-called door
> lane...

You're to cowardly to ride on roads at all.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

By that logic, the only vehicles capable of actually controlling a lane are fully laden cement trucks.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 8:12:45 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
> > week 40/50 mile rides.
> .. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike paths.
>
> My, how manly! :-)

And remember he only feels manly on his tricycle when he has his gun. I can't imagine what it must be to live in so much constant fear that you can't leave your house without a gun.

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

<eyeroll> Try riding from Key Largo to Key West and back again without
riding on roads, Dummy. I've done it twice....

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 8:41:08 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 7:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
> >> week 40/50 mile rides.
> >
> > .. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike
> > paths.
> >
> > My, how manly! :-)
> >
> He's alive to contribute to RBT.

Contribute what? Political nonsense? ad hominems against other members who actually contribute technical content? Perhaps You'd like to see more "contributors" like him and mccoy who post absolutely nothing _but_ political excrement?

> Our Federal system allows a great range of cultural
> experimentation, from New York:
>
> https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/message-from-democrats-where-emt-alison-russo-elling-was-slain/
>
> To Florida:
>
> https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/looters-arrested-in-fort-myers-in-wake-of-hurricane-ian-chaos/
>
> Mr Cat has made his choice.

Yup, a choice to brag how strong and powerful he is to the extent that he opens up a facebook account _just_ for this forum to show off his legs (also becasue, like tom, he can't figure out how to post pictures directly or with links), the claim he doesn't care what anyone thinks. He's made a choice to never leave the house without a gun, then criticize others for being cowards.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

So you say. So far all we've seen of your riding prowess are _claims_ of superior fitness and criticisms of others. Aligning yourself with kunich makes those claims all the more specious. But hey, we know you don't care what anyone else thinks, so much so that you have to post pictures of your legs.

[Catrike Rider]

Having been physically attacked (as I have) changes one's thinking
about self protection issues, especially when one is sitting six
inches off the ground.

Attacks on bicyclists are not uncommon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhrYexptlUo


...but no, I leave the house much more often without a gun than with
one. Off the bike, my physical presense, even at 78 years old is
pretty substantial.

>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Are you still being triggered by my picture?

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 04:21:02 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 7:08:24 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 03:54:38 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 2:09:59 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.
>> >> >
>> >> >Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
>> >> >statement is a deliberate lie.
>> >> >
>> >> >Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
>> >> >me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.
>> >> >
>> >> >Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
>> >> >control a traffic lane.
>> >> I take it that Krygowski is too cowardly to ride is the so-called door
>> >> lane...
>> >
>> > You're to cowardly to ride on roads at all.
>> <eyeroll> Try riding from Key Largo to Key West and back again without
>> riding on roads, Dummy. I've done it twice....
>
>So you say.

Which is all anyone can do here.. But what about you? Can you even
ride a bike?

>So far all we've seen of your riding prowess are _claims_ of superior fitness and criticisms of others. Aligning yourself with kunich makes those claims all the more specious. But hey, we know you don't care what anyone else thinks, so much so that you have to post pictures of your legs.

Caught you obsessing about my legs again. Leave it alone, Dude. I
didn't post the picture to arouse you.

[Catrike Rider]

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/police-investigate-attacks-on-bicyclists-in-baltimore/13079586

https://news.yahoo.com/video/attacks-bicyclists-residents-alert-002322506.html

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/rash-of-attacks-on-bicyclists-in-san-franciscos-panhandle-district-spurs-more-police-patrols/1981334/

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/police-release-new-information-in-bicycle-attacks/274179792

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Unlike you, I've backed up my claims on numerous occasions with strava postings, links to pictures of me at races, and contributions to technical discussions. You're just a pathetic little troll who thinks that harassing others here somehow validates your withering existence.

> >So far all we've seen of your riding prowess are _claims_ of superior fitness and criticisms of others. Aligning yourself with kunich makes those claims all the more specious. But hey, we know you don't care what anyone else thinks, so much so that you have to post pictures of your legs.
>
> Caught you obsessing about my legs again.

nope, merely pointing out your hypocrisy, which seems curiously lost on you.

> Leave it alone, Dude. I
> didn't post the picture to arouse you.

Yes, you did, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it at all. BTW - it didn't work. You're not my type, I'm more into women like my wife, who is more like this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/myfundose/11166906835

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 07:28:55 -0400, Catrike Rider
<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 04:08:50 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
><funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 8:41:08 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/30/2022 7:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> > On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> >> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
>>> >> week 40/50 mile rides.
>>> >
>>> > .. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike
>>> > paths.
>>> >
>>> > My, how manly! :-)
>>> >
>>> He's alive to contribute to RBT.
>>
>>Contribute what? Political nonsense? ad hominems against other members who actually contribute technical content?

Truth is that I haven't seen a lot of bicycle tech on here. I did see
a lot of talk about tieing down shift cables, though. It was something
I never had trouble with..

[AMuzi]

Out in the real world, there are law abiding firearms owners:

https://www.westernjournal.com/50-year-old-woman-buys-revolver-unexpectedly-puts-heroic-use-next-day/

And then there are dead people:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fatal-stabbing-new-york-city-alison-russo-fdny-ems-lieutenant-9-11-first-responder/

Again, Mr Cat has made his choice. As have you. Bon chance.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 05:05:38 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

<LOL> My picture is harrasment, now? Oh, and the posts I direct at
Krygoski are just some humorous responces to his foolish (backfiring)
attempts to belittle me. Hopefully, my reponces will encourage him to
keep doing it.

>> >So far all we've seen of your riding prowess are _claims_ of superior fitness and criticisms of others. Aligning yourself with kunich makes those claims all the more specious. But hey, we know you don't care what anyone else thinks, so much so that you have to post pictures of your legs.
>>
>> Caught you obsessing about my legs again.
>
>nope, merely pointing out your hypocrisy, which seems curiously lost on you.
>
>> Leave it alone, Dude. I
>> didn't post the picture to arouse you.
>
>Yes, you did, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it at all. BTW - it didn't work. You're not my type, I'm more into women like my wife, who is more like this:
>
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/myfundose/11166906835

Check the photo again.. That was my "real" wife. Sadly, she's no
longer with us. Distracted motorist, not on a bicycle, but a
motorcycle, which also contributed to the inner ear problems that
hinder my hearing and balance.

[Catrike Rider]

Different spokes for different folks...

[Roger Merriman]

The risk is still very low, as every folks tend to over estimate risks, if
anything the gun is likely to increase risks as it has a value both
financially and use.

Personally If I felt I needed a gun to go somewhere I’d probably question
the choice to go somewhere!

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 6:17 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 06:02:35 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which
>>>>> anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes
>>>>> specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all
>>>>> circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.
>>>>
>>>> Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
>>>> statement is a deliberate lie.
>>>>
>>>> Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
>>>> me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.
>>>>
>>>> Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
>>>> control a traffic lane.
>>>

>>> But Frank no bicycle ever "controlled" a traffic lane. The best they
>>> can possible do is ride out into the lane in the hope that no auto or
>>> truck will contest their act.
>>>

>>> control ~ verb exercise authoritative control or power over
>>

>> Last weekend, while driving in rural Wisconson I saw some deer that
>> controlled the entire road. I have family members who can testify to
>> the damage a 180/200 lb warm body can cause.
>>
>
> +1
>
> Big chunk of hurtling venison is a virtual suicide bomb. And
> the bastards are everywhere this year.
>
> A 'normal' year in WI has 50,000 'incidents', 20,000
> suicidal deer die in attacks on autos, trucks and motorcycles.
>
> (Motorcycle-deer crashes have a motorcyclist mortality rate
> 20x auto/truck pilots who hit deer.)
>
Luckily in the uk the deer are you’ll commonly see in the woods etc are the
smaller stuff only 70lb or so ie Roe and so on, though do get Reddeer which
can top 500lb in the Scottish highlands or london Royal parks where you can
get very close indeed at the moment would be unwise as they are in rut!

Though unless your truely daft/ignorant they aren’t interested or bothered
by you. Had a colleague who once one dark night, rode into one, describing
it as like running into a wall with a wet smelly rug attached!

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

Very few people have any clue I'm carrying a gun. The Ranger (below)
had to ask.

>Personally If I felt I needed a gun to go somewhere I’d probably question
>the choice to go somewhere!

...which is why, more often than not, I don't carry a gun. On the
other hand, on my Catrike, at my age (78), all alone (I always ride
alone), in somewhat isolated places, sitting in a compromised
situation six inches off the ground, I consider myself rather
vulnerable. I've had friends and relatives tell me that I'm wise to
carry in that situation. I even had a Park Ranger (on a state trail)
concur. If I rode in groups or where there are plenty of other people
around, I wouldn't bother with a gun. That's not, however, they way I
like to ride.

>Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/30/2022 9:04 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 20:10:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>> On 9/30/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.
>>>>
>>>> Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
>>>> statement is a deliberate lie.
>>>>
>>>> Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
>>>> me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.
>>>>
>>>> Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
>>>> control a traffic lane.
>>>
>>> But Frank no bicycle ever "controlled" a traffic lane. The best they
>>> can possible do is ride out into the lane in the hope that no auto or
>>> truck will contest their act.
>>>
>>> control ~ verb exercise authoritative control or power over
>>

> You are playing with semantics. You don't control anything. You ride
> out into traffic hoping that nobody will run over you.

And when you turn on a light switch, you are "hoping" the light will
illuminate. Yet I'm sure you would claim you're controlling the light.

If you've ever had the switch, lamp or power fail, your average at
controlling lights is worse than my average at controlling the lane.

Will you now refrain from saying you're in control of your house's
lights? I very much doubt it.

> As for "foreign" countries, Indonesia - because of where we lived I
> rode on roads with very little traffic.

Sounds lovely. What did you do when a motor vehicle approached? Did you
get off the road, or assume the driver would avoid you?

> Singapore - very specific rules about where you can and cannot ride
> and riding in traffic you were expected to NOT impede vehicular
> traffic.

I note a potential discrepancy between "rules" and "expected." What are
the actual _laws_? I ask because the riding technique I use and describe
is specifically permitted in our state's laws, and is taught in cycling
classes and cycling education literature.

> Thailand - the laws require bicycle and motorcycles to ride "on the
> side of the road" which means that you will not ride out in the middle
> of the lane and impede other traffic.

What happens if, say, the lane is 10 feet wide and a truck is
approaching which is 8.5 feet wide? That's a common situation in the U.S.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/1/2022 5:10 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> Obviously, Krygowski's experience doesn't include riding busy two lane
> roads where the traffic includes large trucks and and other vehicles
> going 60/80 MPH.

Wrong, of course. I've done that in dozens of states and many foreign
countries.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

<LOL> ..and you want me to believe you "took control" of that single
lane of traffic going 60/80 MPH and let a long string of cars pack up
behind you?

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 11:28:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski

Slowing down high speed traffic is dangerous, not only for the
bicyclist, but for the vehicle traffic. Having a right to be foolish
does not mean you have to be foolish.

[pH]

Wow. Thank-you for these links. I don't even like going to my local "Big
Town", Santa Cruz but mainly because of the rampant petty theft and rifling
of parked bicycles...I don't like having to strip everything off my bike
just to go into a building.

Where I live is fine, though, a scant 10 miles away from SC.

pH in Aptos

[Roger Merriman]

Just because some folks agree with you and American do like their guns,
doesn’t mean it’s a rational decision, personally a phone/GPS unit that can
trigger emergency services if one is worried, some can be set up in case of
a fall/crash etc so you can cancel but if not will auto connect to
emergency services.

I suspect you don’t mean remote, but quieter places? Certainly the remote
places I MTB/Gravel ride at times are places I’d not expect to meet others
and may well be only person to pass for quite some time.
>
>> Roger Merriman
>

Roger Merriman.

[AMuzi]

>>> Personally If I felt I needed a gun to go somewhere IÂ’d probably question

>>> the choice to go somewhere!
>>
>> ...which is why, more often than not, I don't carry a gun. On the
>> other hand, on my Catrike, at my age (78), all alone (I always ride
>> alone), in somewhat isolated places, sitting in a compromised
>> situation six inches off the ground, I consider myself rather
>> vulnerable. I've had friends and relatives tell me that I'm wise to
>> carry in that situation. I even had a Park Ranger (on a state trail)
>> concur. If I rode in groups or where there are plenty of other people
>> around, I wouldn't bother with a gun. That's not, however, they way I
>> like to ride.
>
> Just because some folks agree with you and American do like their guns,

> doesn’t mean it’s a rational decision, personally a phone/GPS unit that can

> trigger emergency services if one is worried, some can be set up in case of
> a fall/crash etc so you can cancel but if not will auto connect to
> emergency services.
>

> I suspect you don’t mean remote, but quieter places? Certainly the remote
> places I MTB/Gravel ride at times are places I’d not expect to meet others

> and may well be only person to pass for quite some time.
>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> Roger Merriman.
>

'When seconds matter, 911 is just twenty minutes away.'

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 19:00:57 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman

>>> Personally If I felt I needed a gun to go somewhere I?d probably question

>>> the choice to go somewhere!
>>
>> ...which is why, more often than not, I don't carry a gun. On the
>> other hand, on my Catrike, at my age (78), all alone (I always ride
>> alone), in somewhat isolated places, sitting in a compromised
>> situation six inches off the ground, I consider myself rather
>> vulnerable. I've had friends and relatives tell me that I'm wise to
>> carry in that situation. I even had a Park Ranger (on a state trail)
>> concur. If I rode in groups or where there are plenty of other people
>> around, I wouldn't bother with a gun. That's not, however, they way I
>> like to ride.
>
>Just because some folks agree with you and American do like their guns,
>doesn’t mean it’s a rational decision, personally a phone/GPS unit that can
>trigger emergency services if one is worried, some can be set up in case of
>a fall/crash etc so you can cancel but if not will auto connect to
>emergency services.
>
>I suspect you don’t mean remote, but quieter places? Certainly the remote
>places I MTB/Gravel ride at times are places I’d not expect to meet others
>and may well be only person to pass for quite some time.
>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>Roger Merriman.

The bike trails get busier all the time, but I often still go for many
miles without seeing another person. There's an asphalt trail in
central Florida called the "Van Fleet" that runs through an area
called "The Green Swamp." I do it every now and then and have ridden
25 miles out and 25 back and not seen another soul. Lots of deer,
snakes, birds, turtles, and, of course gators. They tell me there are
bear in there, but I've not seen one there. I have seen them on
another trail. There's a road I rode many years ago in Florida's
panhandle on Santa Rosa Island that back then was remote enough that I
stopped and spent a couple of hours skinny-dipping (taking a bath) in
the Gulf. I've been there several times since then and it's not that
remote any more, although the far ends of St George Island is still
that remote. I may go up there and ride it someday...

[Catrike Rider]

>>>> Personally If I felt I needed a gun to go somewhere I’d probably question

>>>> the choice to go somewhere!
>>>
>>> ...which is why, more often than not, I don't carry a gun. On the
>>> other hand, on my Catrike, at my age (78), all alone (I always ride
>>> alone), in somewhat isolated places, sitting in a compromised
>>> situation six inches off the ground, I consider myself rather
>>> vulnerable. I've had friends and relatives tell me that I'm wise to
>>> carry in that situation. I even had a Park Ranger (on a state trail)
>>> concur. If I rode in groups or where there are plenty of other people
>>> around, I wouldn't bother with a gun. That's not, however, they way I
>>> like to ride.
>>
>> Just because some folks agree with you and American do like their guns,

>> doesn’t mean it’s a rational decision, personally a phone/GPS unit that can

>> trigger emergency services if one is worried, some can be set up in case of
>> a fall/crash etc so you can cancel but if not will auto connect to
>> emergency services.
>>

>> I suspect you don’t mean remote, but quieter places? Certainly the remote
>> places I MTB/Gravel ride at times are places I’d not expect to meet others

>> and may well be only person to pass for quite some time.
>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>> Roger Merriman.
>>
>
>'When seconds matter, 911 is just twenty minutes away.'

More often than not, police can't stop crime from happening, only
afterwards, seek out and arrest the criminals. It also helps if the
criminals are not released so they can continue their criminal
activites. At any rate, I'm prepared for them.

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 1:53:00 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 21:35:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 4:06:15 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:41:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 9/30/2022 2:07 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> And the common fear of riding where motor vehicles tires touch the
> >> >>> pavement? That's both insane and shameful.
> >> >>
> >> >> <LOL> Shameful?
> >> >
> >> >Yes. It indicates a weak minded, fearful and paranoid person. That would
> >> >be true even for those who are so scared that they won't ride without a
> >> >gun.
> >> <eyeroll> Krygowski seems to think his opinions are significant, but
> >> then, not having the physical ability required to engage in what
> >> appears to be his only interest has probably affected his mental and
> >> emotional stability. Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
> >> week 40/50 mile rides. Don't be jealous, it's just that I've taken
> >> better care of my body than you...
> >
> >Francis is the very definition of cowardly, if you or I were standing in front of him and challenged him to say the things he says to our faces, he would piss his pants and start crying. Imagine someone like that using the term "shameful".
> Challenging leftist weenies is not something I do. Apparently, my
> mere existance and my ability, at 78 years old, to outperform him is
> enough for Krygowski to hate me. OTOH, I don't hate him, I kind of
> feel sorry for him.
Well, every time he posts you see something else to pity him for.

[AMuzi]

Our former RBT contributor John Dacy sent this from a bike
path near Miami:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/crabdacy.jpg

[Catrike Rider]

Where's spongebob?

[pH]

<snip>

>>>>>>> Having been physically attacked (as I have) changes one's thinking
>>>>>>> about self protection issues, especially when one is sitting six
>>>>>>> inches off the ground.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attacks on bicyclists are not uncommon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhrYexptlUo

<snip>

Yow! I had not noticed the above comment before--would you be willing to
recount your experience?

Were you injured or manage to escape or perhaps even do the injuring to the
perpetrators on the way out?

Glad you're here to post, in any case.

pH in Aptos

[Tom Kunich]

You don't get personal photos of Stacy Abrams all that often.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 21:19:56 -0000 (UTC), pH <wNOS...@gmail.org>
wrote:

I was riding through a heavily wooded area known for homeless people.
I saw a guy was standing in the road trying to stop me. He didn't look
as though he needed any help, and the Catrike isn't so good at turning
around, so I charged him. He stepped aside but reached out and grabbed
my shirt. Luckily it was a old raggedy shirt and it ripped apart.
That's when I started carrying a gun. I've since built a device that
carries it within easy reach, between my knees.

Another time, previously, I encountered a guy "playing chicken" by
riding his bike on my side, directly at me. Luckily, he chickened out,
as did the kid who tried that at another time. The first guy looked
serious, the kid was just playing. At any rate, riding off the trail
into Florida sand grassy soil was not an option, although I have done
that to avoid the dumb-asses who pass on blind curves.

[Tom Kunich]

I'm large enough that people don't want to even try messing with me. And I get mad probably too easy and hurt people. Luckily it has been quite some time since anyone tried anything.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 8:20:04 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/1/2022 6:08 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 8:41:08 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/30/2022 7:12 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/30/2022 7:06 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> Yeah, Frank, I carry a gun when I do my twice a
>>>>> week 40/50 mile rides.
>>>>
>>>> .. which are only out-and-back tricycle rides on flat bike
>>>> paths.
>>>>
>>>> My, how manly! :-)
>>>>
>>> He's alive to contribute to RBT.

So am I, and I've never been timid enough to carry a gun while bicycling. Nor while backpacking, kayaking, skiing, camping, etc. etc. Certainly not while riding on bike paths. I'm not that much of a "fraidy cat."

I think carrying a gun by private citizens in ordinary circumstances is evidence of timidity and paranoia.

>> Contribute what? Political nonsense? ad hominems against other members
>> who actually contribute technical content? Perhaps You'd like to see
>> more "contributors" like him and mccoy who post absolutely nothing
>> _but_ political excrement?
>>
>>> Our Federal system allows a great range of cultural
>>> experimentation, from New York:
>>>
>>> https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/message-from-democrats-where-emt-alison-russo-elling-was-slain/
>>>
>>> To Florida:
>>>
>>> https://nypost.com/2022/09/30/looters-arrested-in-fort-myers-in-wake-of-hurricane-ian-chaos/

One can focus on every such uncommon incident and cower in fear. Or one can recognize that "America is a big country. There's one of everything" and get on with life, ignoring the outliers.

>>>
>>> Mr Cat has made his choice.
>>
>> Yup, a choice to brag how strong and powerful he is to the extent that
>> he opens up a facebook account _just_ for this forum to show off his
>> legs (also becasue, like tom, he can't figure out how to post pictures
>> directly or with links), the claim he doesn't care what anyone thinks.
>> He's made a choice to never leave the house without a gun, then
>> criticize others for being cowards.
>>
>

> Out in the real world, there are law abiding firearms owners...
Of course there are. That amounts to a tautology. But there are hundreds of millions of Americans who are not so fearful that they feel a need to carry guns.

> Different spokes for different folks...

Different crutches, perhaps. Riding only on bike paths (a segregated, tax funded socialist benefit for the timid?) and riding only while armed don't generate admiration. Neither do decades-old fuzzy photos used to brag about one's legs.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 03:57:54 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:02:49 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.
>> >
>> >Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
>> >statement is a deliberate lie.
>> >
>> >Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
>> >me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.
>> >
>> >Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
>> >control a traffic lane.
>> But Frank no bicycle ever "controlled" a traffic lane. The best they
>> can possible do is ride out into the lane in the hope that no auto or
>> truck will contest their act.
>>
>

>By that logic, the only vehicles capable of actually controlling a lane are fully laden cement trucks.

Well, if a bicycle and a cement truck were to have an altercation and
the cyclist is laying there on the side of the road, all broken and
bloody, tell me, who "controlled"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 2:06:03 PM UTC-4, pH wrote:
> On 2022-10-01, Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >
> > https://www.wbaltv.com/article/police-investigate-attacks-on-bicyclists-in-baltimore/13079586
> >
> > https://news.yahoo.com/video/attacks-bicyclists-residents-alert-002322506.html
> >
> > https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/rash-of-attacks-on-bicyclists-in-san-franciscos-panhandle-district-spurs-more-police-patrols/1981334/
> >
> > https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/police-release-new-information-in-bicycle-attacks/274179792
> Wow. Thank-you for these links.

Oh please! Our timid tricyclist found one five year old story in Baltimore, one seven year old story in Minneapolis,
and two eight year old stories in San Francisco and New Orleans. Those in a country of 330 million people and probably
50 million bicyclists! Those are supposed to prove that carrying a gun while riding is necessary?

A close parallel might be an old lady who reads about a spider bite a thousand miles away, so never goes into her basement
again. Whatever that attitude is, it's not even minimal courage.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

But when riding a tricycle on a bike path? Seriously?

The spherical acquaintance of mine who carried a pistol to a folk music concert
was just as paranoid, timid and ludicrous.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 6:13:28 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm large enough that people don't want to even try messing with me. And I get mad probably too easy and hurt people. Luckily it has been quite some time since anyone tried anything.

Oh please! I'm perfectly average size and people don't want to mess with me.

I've described the only such incident I recall, back in pre-retirement days. I was on my normal route to work
(on a - gosh! - ordinary street! So scary!) and a young tattooed dude, maybe early 20s, came riding toward me
head on, on the wrong side of the road. I yelled at him to ride on the right side of the road, he yelled back
and soon turned around to chase me, challenging me to fight.

So I slowed down till he was maybe 15 feet behind me, then sped up. He charged, spinning his legs furiously.
I sped up to keep him 15 feet behind. We rode that way about two blocks while I laughed and just shook my head,
before he gave up. No weaponry needed.

Are you guys also afraid of the dark?

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

"If"? You're describing your imagination. I'm describing 50 years of riding experience.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

And some of them get attacked or mugged ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqyLztRc5k

>> Different spokes for different folks...
>
>Different crutches, perhaps. Riding only on bike paths (a segregated, tax funded socialist benefit for the timid?) and riding only while armed don't generate admiration.

Has anyone explained to Krygowski that the streets he rides on are
also government owned and operated?

>Neither do decades-old fuzzy photos used to brag about one's legs.

No brag, just facts. They're called muscles, Frank. I must still have
them if I can ride 40 or 50 miles regularly... Sorry that you can't,
but I found something for you...

https://tinyurl.com/4kkvtu9h

Get off the couch, Frank. Lifes too short...

>- Frank Krygowski

[pH]

On 2022-10-01, Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

Wow, that must have been adrenaline-inducing. Glad it worked out.

When I visit the local town I can see the askers-for-money laying a bead on
me as I approach...I do my best to avoid them, but there are so many.

Lately I have been trying to be a bit more compassionate and dole out a bit
here and there but only if they seem/feel legit and are not part of the
coterie I've seen every day over the last 15 years.

It is beginning to spread here to Aptos lately essentially the first I've
seen around here since moving here in '85.

pH

[Frank Krygowski]

On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 7:23:46 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
>
> Attacks on bicyclists are not uncommon.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhrYexptlUo

Ooh, look! Something bad happened 1200 miles away five years ago!
Oh dear, we live in such a dangerous world! /sarc

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

This is from a guy who hasn't even mentioned any rides he's done
recently. Does he ride at all? As for me, I'm not ready to live like
Krygowski, recalling his yesterdays.

[pH]

Well, I know *I* am....haven't you ever seen the original version of "The
Blob"?
I slept w/ my light on for a long time before my Dad put his foot down
about that.....

pH

[pH]

On 2022-10-01, Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

All motives and beliefs aside, I simply enjoyed reading the stories.

pH

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/1/2022 6:16 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> Stop living on your memories, Frank, get out and ride. Here's a
> combination couch and bike that you shouldn't have any trouble with.
>
> https://tinyurl.com/2efhxw9n

I know you need a tricycle, but I don't. I ride a bicycle. Longer rides
these days are usually on the tandem. And I ride on (gosh!) roads! With
(oh no!) cars! And hills! And (horrors!) not carrying a gun!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 11:28:55 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/30/2022 9:04 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 20:10:04 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>>
>>> On 9/30/2022 7:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/30/2022 12:48 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger, Frank has NOT talked about not riding in the gutter which anyone could agree with. He has continually written that bike lanes specifically are stupid and dangerous. That all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane since we have the same road rights as autos.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even Tom's famously faulty memory cannot be as bad as that. So that
>>>>> statement is a deliberate lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom is welcome to prove me wrong. Just give a link to a direct quote of
>>>>> me saying all cyclists under all circumstances should take the lane.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom is a wimp, afraid of cars, kowtowing to drivers, too timid to ever
>>>>> control a traffic lane.
>>>>
>>>> But Frank no bicycle ever "controlled" a traffic lane. The best they
>>>> can possible do is ride out into the lane in the hope that no auto or
>>>> truck will contest their act.
>>>>

>>>> control ~ verb exercise authoritative control or power over
>>>
>>> First, I think your mental definition of "control" must be far too
>>> absolute. Nothing is ever 100% reliable. You "control" the gear changing
>>> of your bicycle, but you have certainly missed shifts in the past.
>>> Everything from light switches to nuclear weapons malfunction from time
>>> to time.
>>>
>>> Second, the degree of control I enjoy when riding lane center has been
>>> damned near perfect. No motorist has ever run me down from behind, which
>>> is what the timid fear. Only on very rare occasions has a motorist
>>> behaved in an unacceptable way, such as by passing with too little
>>> clearance.
>>>
>>> I'll give you a break, sort of, by saying that I don't know if it would
>>> work in Thailand or Singapore. I've never been there. But I have
>>> memories of controlling the lane in Italy when drivers of huge tractor
>>> trailers waited patiently behind my wife and me until it was safe to
>>> pass. I have memories of the same thing when descending the west side of
>>> Lolo Pass in Idaho. And I mention those two because we were specifically
>>> warned by hand wringers "The truckers don't care! They'll just run you
>>> over!"
>>>
>>> If I remembered them, I could give at least tens of thousands of other
>>> examples. But in real life, they're not very memorable. The drivers just
>>> wait until it's safe to pass. A tiny minority may honk their horn - at
>>> which point I just shrug, as in "Sorry, there's nothing I can do. I'm
>>> riding here."
>>>
>>> (For Tom's benefit, since he "forgets", I'll repeat yet again: If it's
>>> safe to share the lane, I do move to the right and let faster traffic
>>> pass. If it's not safe, state laws allow me to do what's reasonable:
>>> ride lane center and control the lane.)
>>
>> You are playing with semantics. You don't control anything. You ride
>> out into traffic hoping that nobody will run over you.
>
>And when you turn on a light switch, you are "hoping" the light will
>illuminate. Yet I'm sure you would claim you're controlling the light.
>
>If you've ever had the switch, lamp or power fail, your average at
>controlling lights is worse than my average at controlling the lane.

No Frank, I know that the switch will turn the lights unless it has
failed. It is not any more a matter of hope then you hoping that the
spoon hits your mouth when you are eating your morning cereal.


>Will you now refrain from saying you're in control of your house's
>lights? I very much doubt it.
>
>> As for "foreign" countries, Indonesia - because of where we lived I
>> rode on roads with very little traffic.
>
>Sounds lovely. What did you do when a motor vehicle approached? Did you
>get off the road, or assume the driver would avoid you?
>
>> Singapore - very specific rules about where you can and cannot ride
>> and riding in traffic you were expected to NOT impede vehicular
>> traffic.
>
>I note a potential discrepancy between "rules" and "expected." What are
>the actual _laws_? I ask because the riding technique I use and describe
>is specifically permitted in our state's laws, and is taught in cycling
>classes and cycling education literature.

More semantics. Legal systems "assume" that you will obey and have
penalties for failing to do so.

>
>> Thailand - the laws require bicycle and motorcycles to ride "on the
>> side of the road" which means that you will not ride out in the middle
>> of the lane and impede other traffic.
>
>What happens if, say, the lane is 10 feet wide and a truck is
>approaching which is 8.5 feet wide? That's a common situation in the U.S.

I really don't know however I do know of a case where a motorcycle -
little 100 cc Honda - refused to give way to automobile traffic and
got a ticket so I imagine that it was a matter of you and a truck you
would be expected to get out of the way.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Sounds like it’s paved old railways and the like, of which I use from time
to time, and can vary from busy to quiet depending on time of day/year.

I think of remote as places where very little foot traffic, stuff like
Strava will show you might be the only recorded soul that month or possibly
even this year!

I’ve bumped into number of naked or near naked folks around Avebury who
have assumed the Ridgeway which is quiet generally, even on a nice day. Is
remote and get a bit of surprise to see someone else!

Roger Merriman