A Cyclist’s future in a Green World

[Andre Jute]

This neddy-article explains, among other matters, why cycling’s future is in unending landscapes of monstrous wind turbines and over the carcasses of the millions of birds they kill.
https://townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2022/04/30/real-threats-to-biodiversity-and-humanity-n2606568

[Tom Kunich]

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> This neddy-article explains, among other matters, why cycling’s future is in unending landscapes of monstrous wind turbines and over the carcasses of the millions of birds they kill.
> https://townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2022/04/30/real-threats-to-biodiversity-and-humanity-n2606568

PG&E contrary to their Green messages, have never made one cent of profit from any of their solar or wind farms. The open lies of the left are that Nuclear Power is dangerous and that nuclear waste isn't manageable. The facts are that we have over 200 years of Thorium fuels and there is little waste. The waste problem was solved in the 70's and nuclear wastes are little to no problem at all. Thorium reactors cannot "melt down". If there is any sort of depressurization of the reactor, fission simply ceases. It runs cool enough that water cooling only allows it to run hotter and be more efficient at producing power. They can even use air cooling.

[Andre Jute]

The Germans, who were the most committed and therefore the worst Greens on the Continent are in a very bad way for energy. They shut down all fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power, which then wasn’t delivered, so any 3-year old toddler with his brains in gear could have told them would happen. Now they’re dependent on the old enemy, Russia, for their power via two vulnerable pipelines. What kind of politician actively plans and promotes such a catastrophe? Merkel’s first job was as a publicist in the Komsomol (Young Communist) movement in East Germany — and they made her Chancellor of Germany!

The sly French all along kept their nuclear power plants so they’re in a better position.

Andre Jute.
Personally, I like the Germans. They’re always on time for meetings.

[Tom Kunich]

Rather than plan on the need for real energy production via Thorium reactors, the US under that demented fool Biden is spending more money on useless wind technology than he is spending to protect our southern borders thus requiring even more energy expenses incurred. The blubbering moron leftists here think that this is wonderful. I'm sure that Frank believes that the millions of people pouring over the border is no problem because they aren't killing people in the street in his sleepy little town so it is perfectly OK that it is happening in Chicago and Detroit.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 4:55:10 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 8:47:19 PM UTC+1, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:13:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > This neddy-article explains, among other matters, why cycling’s future is in unending landscapes of monstrous wind turbines and over the carcasses of the millions of birds they kill.
> > > https://townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2022/04/30/real-threats-to-biodiversity-and-humanity-n2606568
> > PG&E contrary to their Green messages, have never made one cent of profit from any of their solar or wind farms. The open lies of the left are that Nuclear Power is dangerous and that nuclear waste isn't manageable. The facts are that we have over 200 years of Thorium fuels and there is little waste. The waste problem was solved in the 70's and nuclear wastes are little to no problem at all. Thorium reactors cannot "melt down". If there is any sort of depressurization of the reactor, fission simply ceases. It runs cool enough that water cooling only allows it to run hotter and be more efficient at producing power. They can even use air cooling.
> The Germans, who were the most committed and therefore the worst Greens on the Continent are in a very bad way for energy.
> They shut down all fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power, which then wasn’t delivered,
> so any 3-year old toddler with his brains in gear could have told them would happen.

"all"?

Any 3-year-old knows you're as full of shit as usual.

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterprises/Energy/Production/Tables/gross-electricity-production.html

Yes skippy, we know we should believe you instead of any information we see from German Working Group on Energy Balances (AG Energiebilanzen) or the German Federal Statistical Office (Destatis). They're just another group of bureacrats feeding us lies, but you - a retired south african living in ireland - are privy to the real truth about the German energy sector.

[Andre Jute]

Do give us your magic explanation, Flunky, of the reason the Germans, who according to you have all the energy they need or want from local sources, need not one but two pipelines bringing gas from Russia, thereby putting the existential blood-enemy's hands on their own necks. You''re full of shit, monkey-face.
>
Unsigned out of contempt for a blustering idiot.
>

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

As usual, andre the liar builds a strawman in an attempt to cover up a previous lie.

The link I provided was a counter to your claim "They shut down all fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power".

That link from the German Working Group on Energy Balances (AG Energiebilanzen) with data from the the German Federal Statistical Office (Destatis) shows about 44% is generated from fossil fuels. Feel free to admit you were wrong when you wrote "They shut down all fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power" any time now.

Of course, you then build the strawman to claim the discussion point was where they get their fossil fuels from and that I claimed they get all they need from local sources.

I didn't write that, or even insinuate that, you lying piece of shit.

> thereby putting the existential blood-enemy's
> hands on their own necks.
>
> You''re full of shit, monkey-face.
> >
> Unsigned out of contempt for a blustering idiot.
> >

The blustering idiot who is full of shit is the one that wrote "They shut down all fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power", then lied about my response by claiming I wrote they get all they need from local sources. In you case, I think the term "bloviating shitbag" is more appropriate.

You're falling into tommy gravitational pull of lies and deceit skippy, it ain't pretty....

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:22:41 AM UTC+1, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote, among much more foaming at the mouth:
>
> The link I provided was a counter to your claim "They shut down all fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power".
>

Then why are you getting so hot under the collar?
>
I misspoke. I coulda, shoulda written, and to someone I actually want to talk to, woulda written: The Germans went on a rampage shutting down coal-fired power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and solar power which, of course, didn't materialize. But I was only writing to you, and I thought it was my social duty to keep you busy and thus out of the pub, where you would only get beaten up for being an obnoxious, ugly little man. You should thank me, but of course you lack the grace.
>
Andre Jute
What do y'all bet I can make the wretched little stalker foam at the mouth some more?
>

[Sepp Ruf]

Andre Jute wrote:
> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:22:41 AM UTC+1, funkma:

>> The link I provided was a counter to your claim "They shut down all
>> fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and
>> solar power".

> I misspoke. I coulda, shoulda written, and to someone I actually want
> to talk to, woulda written: The Germans went on a rampage shutting
> down coal-fired power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and
> solar power which, of course, didn't materialize.

Quite telling how they scramble to turn off even slow, lignite-fired
plants for a few hours past noon when both the wind happens to blow, and
the sun happens to shine, and nobody wants to import the excess either:
<https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/conventional_power_generation/05.05.2022/12.05.2022/today/>
What's urgently needed is more wind generators rotating wind turbines
powering high-efficacy lamps driving photovoltaic cells ...!!!


--
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhfPIeCf3Y>
Aanslag op Kariba -- clumsy movie to ironically watch peat-powered,
looking for Andre among the "bad" guys.

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:48:54 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:22:41 AM UTC+1, funkma:
> >> The link I provided was a counter to your claim "They shut down all
> >> fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and
> >> solar power".
> > I misspoke. I coulda, shoulda written, and to someone I actually want
> > to talk to, woulda written: The Germans went on a rampage shutting
> > down coal-fired power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and
> > solar power which, of course, didn't materialize.
> Quite telling how they scramble to turn off even slow, lignite-fired
> plants for a few hours past noon when both the wind happens to blow, and
> the sun happens to shine, and nobody wants to import the excess either:
> <https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/conventional_power_generation/05.05.2022/12.05.2022/today/>
> What's urgently needed is more wind generators rotating wind turbines
> powering high-efficacy lamps driving photovoltaic cells ...!!!

Sepp, as an engineer I would agree in one second if I thought that solar and or wind answered anything. But wind power is rather useless since if the wind blows to slowly if produced no power and if it blows too hard the units burn themselves up. What they have tried is to make the windmills so large that they cannot be broken by the wind. The problem with this is that the ends of the propellers are now approaching the speed of sound and this vibrates all the way down the pillar. On land it is environmentally destructive and on water it kills all of the local fish. You should see the cows huddling around each other as far away from the windmills as they can get in out area of windmills. They are becoming defended.

Solar power is more costly than fossil fuel and it is extremely unreliable. But Elon Musk if making millions off of selling batteries to these solar farms. What do you suppose happens when these batteries age to uselessness? You cannot destroy the batteries and you cannot recycle the materials. You can only bury them. Where do you suppose they are going to so that? Under the sands of the North Sea at low tide? Poison the oceans? Or perhaps you have large areas in Germany that can be poisoned permanently?

Most certainly fossil fuels are environmentally unfriendly but we know how to deal with it.

[AMuzi]

On 5/12/2022 10:48 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:22:41 AM UTC+1, funkma:
>
>>> The link I provided was a counter to your claim "They
>>> shut down all
>>> fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of
>>> wind and
>>> solar power".
>
>> I misspoke. I coulda, shoulda written, and to someone I
>> actually want
>> to talk to, woulda written: The Germans went on a rampage
>> shutting
>> down coal-fired power stations on a whiff and a promise of
>> wind and
>> solar power which, of course, didn't materialize.
>
> Quite telling how they scramble to turn off even slow,
> lignite-fired plants for a few hours past noon when both the
> wind happens to blow, and the sun happens to shine, and
> nobody wants to import the excess either:
> <https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/conventional_power_generation/05.05.2022/12.05.2022/today/>
>
> What's urgently needed is more wind generators rotating wind
> turbines powering high-efficacy lamps driving photovoltaic
> cells ...!!!
>
>

A great interim project. One step closer to digging holes
and filling them in, the ultimate Keynesian government program.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

I agree with you and see that I posted a treatise so badly composed that it is almost unreadable.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/12/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Sepp, as an engineer I would agree in one second if I thought that solar and or wind answered anything. But wind power is rather useless since if the wind blows to slowly if produced no power and if it blows too hard the units burn themselves up. What they have tried is to make the windmills so large that they cannot be broken by the wind. The problem with this is that the ends of the propellers are now approaching the speed of sound and this vibrates all the way down the pillar. On land it is environmentally destructive and on water it kills all of the local fish. You should see the cows huddling around each other as far away from the windmills as they can get in out area of windmills. They are becoming defended.

Wow. That's even worse than Tom's usual ranting and rambling.

Tom, can your wife help you with your meds? And maybe do some basic
proofreading before you post?

So many mistakes! So many problems!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Nothing new there....

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I thought it was pretty funny
- "as an engineer" (as if....)
- if it blows too hard the units burn themselves up (sure, like they don't have limiters designed in to prevent it)
- ends of the propellers are now approaching the speed of sound and this vibrates all the way down the pillar (Tip speeds are generally limited to 180 MPH, this information is readily accessible*)
- it kills all of the local fish (um...no...Birds and bats have issues, not fish. There are studies that show the noise from construction of turbines is detrimental, but there is no evidence that blade noise has any effect)
- cows huddling around each other as far away from the windmills as they can get (I don't even know what to do with this one, Gary Larson maybe?)

>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[Andre Jute]

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 4:48:54 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 9:22:41 AM UTC+1, funkma:
> >> The link I provided was a counter to your claim "They shut down all
> >> fossil fuel power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and
> >> solar power".
> > I misspoke. I coulda, shoulda written, and to someone I actually want
> > to talk to, woulda written: The Germans went on a rampage shutting
> > down coal-fired power stations on a whiff and a promise of wind and
> > solar power which, of course, didn't materialize.
> Quite telling how they scramble to turn off even slow, lignite-fired
> plants for a few hours past noon when both the wind happens to blow, and
> the sun happens to shine, and nobody wants to import the excess either:
> <https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/conventional_power_generation/05.05.2022/12.05.2022/today/>
> What's urgently needed is more wind generators rotating wind turbines
> powering high-efficacy lamps driving photovoltaic cells ...!!!
>

Hey, hey, hey! Stop right there, Sepp. I want all these idle engineers for a really important project before they do anything else: designing perpetual motion wiper blades for my spectacles so that I can cycle when it rains.

>
> --
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhfPIeCf3Y>
> Aanslag op Kariba -- clumsy movie to ironically watch peat-powered,
> looking for Andre among the "bad" guys.
>

I'm the handsome one.
>
Andre Jute
Dorian Gray, not his picture.

[Andre Jute]

I'd laugh at the absurdity of our world, but the times are fraught. Even the great Victor Davis Hanson, a distinguished classicist to whom little of the world's evil dangers can come as a surprise, is sounding rattled at the distinct possibility of a nuclear war that demented old man in the White House is stumbling into. See "Imagine the Unimaginable" at https://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2022/05/12/imagine-the-unimaginable-n2607124
Don't shoot the messenger; he only delivers the envelope. ---- AJ

[Frank Krygowski]

The whining about wind turbine noise amazes me. I can't be the only
person who's stood right at the base of one and listened, can I?

Speaking of whine: That was all I heard - the unmistakable sound of
transmission gears at work. It was barely audible.

> - cows huddling around each other as far away from the windmills as they can get (I don't even know what to do with this one, Gary Larson maybe?)

:-) Gary Larson could have a lot of fun with Tom's character!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 12 May 2022 09:23:04 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>... as an engineer I would agree in one second...

Show me your diploma and I might consider you an engineer.

>... if it blows too hard the units burn themselves up.

The larger turbines have variable pitch propellers and feathering
mechanisms (where they turn the turbine to be perpendicular to the
wind).
<https://www.google.com/search?q=pitch+regulated+wind+turbine>

>What they have tried is to make the windmills so large that
>they cannot be broken by the wind.

Nope. The wind is faster at higher altitudes. Power output is
proportional to the cube of the wind speed. Therefore, bigger
generates more power, is more efficient, occupies a smaller footprint,
etc.

>The problem with this is that the ends of the propellers are
>now approaching the speed of sound

Tip speed is getting close, but has a way to go.
<https://www.linquip.com/blog/what-is-wind-turbine/>
HAWT (horizontal axis wind turbine) spin at about 22 rpm. The largest
blade length is on the Siemens Gamesa 14-222 DD at 354 ft or 108 m.
<https://www.siemensgamesa.com/products-and-services/offshore/wind-turbine-sg-14-222-dd>
The circumference of the rotor at the blade tips is:
Pi * 2 * radius = 3.14 * 2 * 354 ft = 2,286 ft
RPM is revolutions per minute. 22 rpm will move the tip around at:
2,286ft/rev * 22 rev/min = 50,290 ft/minute
50,270ft/min / 60 sec/min = 838 ft/second
The speed of sound is 1,125 ft/sec so the rotor tip is:
838 / 1,125 = Mach 0.7
Supersonic effects BEGIN at Mach 1.0, so there's some margin before we
can expect a sonic boom from a wind turbine.

>and this vibrates all the way down the pillar.

The only way for a wind turbine to vibrate is if the turbine, drive
train, and motor are unbalanced. Something would need to break before
that happens. I assume that the turbine blades are balanced at some
point during the installation. However, I don't know how it's done.

>On land it is environmentally destructive and on water it kills
>all of the local fish.

Actually, the offshore wind turbines are turning into fish
sanctuaries:
"How do offshore wind farms affect ocean ecosystems?"
<https://www.dw.com/en/how-do-offshore-wind-farms-affect-ocean-ecosystems/a-40969339>

>You should see the cows huddling around each other as far
>away from the windmills as they can get in out area of windmills.

Cows are herd animals and always tend to gather together for
protection. You should look at online images of cow herds and see for
yourself:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=herd+of+cows&tbm=isch>

>They are becoming defended.

I'm becoming offended.

(...) The rest deleted.

[ 50 minutes wasted doing the basic research and back of envelope
calculations that Tom should have done ]


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 4:50:27 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 2:51 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 2:10:21 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 5/12/2022 12:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Sepp, as an engineer I would agree in one second if I thought that solar and or wind answered anything. But wind power is rather useless since if the wind blows to slowly if produced no power and if it blows too hard the units burn themselves up. What they have tried is to make the windmills so large that they cannot be broken by the wind. The problem with this is that the ends of the propellers are now approaching the speed of sound and this vibrates all the way down the pillar. On land it is environmentally destructive and on water it kills all of the local fish. You should see the cows huddling around each other as far away from the windmills as they can get in out area of windmills. They are becoming defended.
> >> Wow. That's even worse than Tom's usual ranting and rambling.
> >>
> >> Tom, can your wife help you with your meds? And maybe do some basic
> >> proofreading before you post?
> >>
> >> So many mistakes! So many problems!
> >
> > I thought it was pretty funny
> > - "as an engineer" (as if....)
> > - if it blows too hard the units burn themselves up (sure, like they don't have limiters designed in to prevent it)
> > - ends of the propellers are now approaching the speed of sound and this vibrates all the way down the pillar (Tip speeds are generally limited to 180 MPH, this information is readily accessible*)
> > - it kills all of the local fish (um...no...Birds and bats have issues, not fish. There are studies that show the noise from construction of turbines is detrimental, but there is no evidence that blade noise has any effect)
> The whining about wind turbine noise amazes me. I can't be the only
> person who's stood right at the base of one and listened, can I?

Last summer my wife and I spent a long weekend in Rockport MA for her birthday. We spent one afternoon hiking through Dogtown forest, which is adjacent to an industrial park where Varian Semiconductor built what is currently the tallest wind turbine in New England (486 feet to the top of the blade circumference). It was a typical windy day , and as we wound our way through the forest we kept hearing an oscillating 'whoosh'. Even at 486 feet, the turbine wasn't generally visible through the forest canopy. We could only get about 100 yards from the turbine, but even then the noise was significantly less than one hears standing next to a highway with moderate traffic going the speed limit. I could see if you lived next to one, it might get annoying, but then white noise is often recommended for people with insomnia. It actually reminded us more of the sinusoidal rhythm of the surf we could hear all night in our hotel room which faced Cathedral Rocks.

>
> Speaking of whine: That was all I heard - the unmistakable sound of
> transmission gears at work. It was barely audible.

We didn't hear any mechanical noise at all

> > - cows huddling around each other as far away from the windmills as they can get (I don't even know what to do with this one, Gary Larson maybe?)
> :-) Gary Larson could have a lot of fun with Tom's character!

Tom _is_ a Gary Larson character

https://americasbestpics.com/picture/the-far-side-by-gary-larson-well-well-another-blond-muaiHpns8


>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

The vast majority of wind turbines limit the rotor speed such that the tips run under 180 MPH. The following shows that the current design maximums are ~300 feet/second or ~ 200 mph

https://www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/tip-speed-trends.html

I couldn't find any data on the maximum rpm of the Siemens Gamesa, but I would think they would limit to decrease inertial forces on the blades. The point of larger blades AFAIU is to generate more torque, not horsepower, but I could be wrong about that.

[Tom Kunich]

I was forwarded another one of Jeffies childish postings. He is attempting to calculate the blade tip speed of a windmill in order to discredit my claim of "near the speed of sound." I suppose he is simply too stupid to know that the while he shows the blade tip moving in the transonic region (0.7 to 1.2 x the speed of sound), it never occurs to him for one second that the wind is accelerated over an aerodynamic wing section putting a tip speed of 0.7 SOS to very close to the speed of sound in the aerodynamic and generating a sound that deafens the bats causing them to fly haphazardly near the blades where a large number of them are killed from collapsed lungs due to the volume of sound. Those that do not fly too close to the blades are killed nonetheless because they are deafened and cannot feed. This is why cattle do not like this whining sound since most animals can hear in frequencies much broader than humans who rely upon eyesight. Why do you suppose people like Jeffie work so hard to prove me wrong about the slightest detail? This is clearly a severe mental problem that must have something to do with his health condition. He was never what anyone would call a bicyclist and now he doesn't ride at all due to health conditions and his rapidly reducing physical capacity. So his entire life appears to be disproving what I say which could simply show he is wrong because of a glut of scientific journal articles that say nothing more than I do.

I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 13.05.2022 um 17:31 schrieb Tom Kunich:

> I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because
> he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in
> the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only
> active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee
> side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but
> receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a
> poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to
> himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply
> shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized
> themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant
> statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.

Please to this through a google translator.
http://www.bund-rvso.de/windenergie-windraeder-voegel-fledermaeuse.html

Rolf

[Andre Jute]

How about an executive summary, Rolf? A couple of lines should do it. -- AJ

[Tom Kunich]

I entirely agree that birds are killed in many ways, I don't think that is the question. Windmills are placed in areas that are largely monocultural. Or if you please - they have almost entirely single species in question. In the Altamont Pass here we don't see Robins or Sparrows killed but the very seriously endangered Raptors such as Bald and Golden Eagles and lessor raptors such as hawks and falcons.

The blade tips of the windmills are moving much too rapidly for the Raptors to be able to estimate since nothing in nature moves that fast Bats are even more serious because they are almost entirely of one type that controls the insect population and here these windfarms are upwind from the food bowl of the United States. While grains are largely grown in the mid-west and plains, California grows most of the fruits and vegetables which are greatly threatened by insects. Kill off the bats and the end result is over spraying with insecticides. These invariably end up in the food supply.

Now, perhaps with the wind farms located on the sands of the north sea, this isn't so much of a problem, but in the USA which supplies a large portion of the worlds food (the huge increase in the world's population has been completely offset with modern farming techniques) The world simply cannot afford to put barriers of any kind to farming and those bats are an integral part of it.

[Tom Kunich]

It says that far more birds and bats are killed by other means such as cars, planes and railroads. Also flying into glass panes of skyscrapers.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 5/13/2022 11:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I was forwarded another one of Jeffies childish postings.

No you weren't. You read his post.

Quit lying about that. Nobody believes you.

> Why do you suppose people like Jeffie work so hard to prove me wrong about the slightest detail?

You provide what the military calls a "target rich environment." You
post so many mistakes and lies that many people feel compelled to
respond with at least some corrections.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Good article. FWIW, one biologist friend of mine published a paper on
bird deaths caused by impact with a very tall television and radio tower
at the edge of our river valley. There's also been quite a lot of press
lately about nighttime lights in large cities luring migrating birds
into collisions with skyscrapers, as well as other bird-building
collisions.

I do think there are places where wind turbines should not be sited. I'm
thinking of the major migration path that crosses western Lake Erie as
one example.

But the exaggeration of turbine hazards is silly, especially while
ignoring much more important sources of bird deaths, and ignoring the
huge negative effects of legacy energy sources.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

>I was forwarded another one of Jeffies childish postings.

You're lying. But that's ok because nobody believes you.

>He is attempting to calculate the blade tip speed of
>a windmill in order to discredit my claim of "near
>the speed of sound."

Correct. You get one point for actually reading whatever some
mythical person forwarded to you. I therefore grant you 60 minutes of
my spare time on a Friday night.

>I suppose he is simply too stupid to know that the
>while he shows the blade tip moving in the transonic
>region (0.7 to 1.2 x the speed of sound),

Very close to correct. The flow of air over the curved part of an
airfoil is faster than the speed of the airfoil through the air. This
is one of the ways an airplane wing provides lift (the other is the
angle of attack). There is also an increased airspeed around the
fuselage.
<https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/hisub.html>
However, a wind turbine is not an airplane. There difference is that
the air speed over the curved part of an airplane wing is fairly
constant over its length, while the air speed over the curved part of
a wind turbine blade varies radically with the distance from the
nacelle (covering over the generator). Near the nacelle, the air
speed is probably twice that of the wind speed. However, at the rotor
tips, the pitch and thickness of the airfoil (blade) is minimal. This
is to reduce some transonic effects which I won't pretend to
understand. However, the result is a fairly flat turbine blade tip
with only a small angle of attack. That's because it doesn't need a
large angle of attack or a fat airfoil at the blade tip. That's where
the a slight angle of attack, and the highest air speed along the
length of the airfoil, will produce the most torque. It's that torque
at the blade tip that provides most of the power. One could build a
wind turbine with only about 1/3 the blade length, except that the fat
part of the blade is needed to support the weight and wind load
created near the blade tip. This might help:
<https://crunch.craft-tech.com/applications/design-optimization/wind-turbine-blade/>
The end result of all this is that yes, the air moves faster over the
upper (suction) part of the airfoil, it isn't much faster than the
rotor tip speed because the airfoil is almost flat and the angle of
attack is also small.

>it never occurs to him for one second that the wind is accelerated
>over an aerodynamic wing section putting a tip speed of 0.7 SOS to
>very close to the speed of sound in the aerodynamic and generating
>a sound that deafens the bats causing them to fly haphazardly near
>the blades where a large number of them are killed from collapsed
>lungs due to the volume of sound.

True, but no points because you didn't bother to substantiate your
claim with a credible reference. I'll do it for you:
"Barotrauma is a significant cause of bat fatalities at wind turbines"
(2008)
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208007513>
"We found that 90% of bat fatalities involved internal haemorrhaging
consistent with barotrauma, and that direct contact with turbine
blades only accounted for about half of the fatalities."

I had difficulties determining the number of bat kills and the total
number of bats in the world. What numbers I could find were rather
questionable. My guess(tm) is that considering that bats are the 2nd
most common group of animals (after rodents) suggests a rather large
number. Meanwhile, science hasn't provided us with an answer to the
problem. The best that is being done is to try to locate wind
turbines away from bat migration paths.

>Those that do not fly too close to the blades are killed nonetheless
>because they are deafened and cannot feed.

Could you provide a reference that demonstrates the problem? I
couldn't find anything with a Google search:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bats+deafened+by+wind+turbines>

>This is why cattle do not like this whining sound since most animals
>can hear in frequencies much broader than humans who rely upon
>eyesight.

They're fairly quiet.
"The sound of wind farms"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sUDSwsE_w> (9:23)

Here's another opinion:
Infrasound caused by Industrial Wind Turbines
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWNx3OJyuo> (28:14)
Please note that infrasonic means very low frequency, typically below
about 20 Hz. Bat sonar operates at 20 to 80 KHz.

I noticed that you switched from cows huddling together in fear to
cattle. Why did you do that?

>Why do you suppose people like Jeffie work so
>hard to prove me wrong about the slightest detail?

You could ask Jeffie, but that might produce an answer you won't like.

>This is clearly a severe mental problem that must have something
>to do with his health condition.

I appreciate your concern for my physical and mental health. As I've
previously mentioned, I am having health issues, one of which made
bicycle riding rather painful. However, I believe my situation may
have improved over the last few years. I visit the body mechanics in
a few days. As always, I will bring up the topic of bicycle riding.

Time is up. You wasted an hour partly because you didn't bother
providing sources and substantiations to your claims.

>He was never what anyone would call a bicyclist and now he doesn't ride at all due to health conditions and his rapidly reducing physical capacity. So his entire life appears to be disproving what I say which could simply show he is wrong because of a glut of scientific journal articles that say nothing more than I do.
>
>I guess he doesn't like my negative comments about wind power because he has this dream that green energy exists. The fact is that even in the Altamont pass where I have often ridden, windmills are only active at most 25% of the time. They are even installed on the lee side of some of the hills meaning that they almost never operate but receive government funding because they are installed. Jeffie is a poor fool who is becoming a demented poor fool. But he is doing it to himself so those who can see his posting and know anything can simply shake your heads, The rest of his group that have marginalized themselves from truth and fact can only make additional ignorant statements since nothing divided by nothing is still nothing.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 May 2022 19:53:19 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 13 May 2022 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

>>This is why cattle do not like this whining sound since most animals
>>can hear in frequencies much broader than humans who rely upon
>>eyesight.

Broader? I think you mean higher frequencies instead.

Wining sound? Where did you get the idea that wind turbines make such
a sound? It might if a bearing was about to fail but not in normal
operation. (I'm still waiting for the sonic booms from supersonic tip
speeds). How about a "swishing" or "whooshing" sound?"

Wind Turbine Whine
<https://www.maine.gov/DACF/lupc/projects/windpower/redington/Documents/Section05_Sound/AWEA_Turbine_Noise_FAQ.pdf>
"Wind turbines most commonly produce some broadband noise as their
revolving rotor blades encounter turbulence in the passing air.
Broadband noise is usually described as a "swishing" or "whooshing"
sound."

>They're fairly quiet.
>"The sound of wind farms"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sUDSwsE_w> (9:23)
>
>Here's another opinion:
>Infrasound caused by Industrial Wind Turbines
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWNx3OJyuo> (28:14)

>Note that infrasonic means very low frequency, typically below

>about 20 Hz. Bat sonar operates at 20 to 80 KHz.

Yet another point of view:
"How Wind Turbines Make You Sick"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9ckNLI9dRc>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 13 May 2022 18:02:04 +0200, Rolf Mantel
<ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Please to this through a google translator.
>http://www.bund-rvso.de/windenergie-windraeder-voegel-fledermaeuse.html
>
>Rolf

In the USA, wind turbines kill about 234,000 birds per year:
"How Many Birds Are Killed by Wind Turbines?"
<https://abcbirds.org/blog21/wind-turbine-mortality/>

In the USA, cats kill about 1.3 - 4.0 billion birds, and 6.3 - 22.3
billion mammals per year. That's about 10,000 times as many birds
killed by cats than by wind turbines:
"The impact of free-ranging domestic cats on wildlife of the United
States"
<https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380>

In the USA, we loose 1.39 billion birds to collisions with structures
and 89 - 340 million with collisions with vehicles. That's about
1,000 times as many birds killed by vehicles than by wind turbines and
900 times as many birds killed by collisions with structures as by
wind turbines:
<https://urbanbird.org/reducing-bird-strike-mortality/>