Garmin 830

[Tom Kunich]

The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.

Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.

But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.

This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.

In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?

[Lou Holtman]

The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring when you don’t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the necessary contacts are connected.

Lou

[Ted Heise]

On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:53:40 -0800 (PST),
Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:25:22 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about
> > it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is
> > incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they
> > allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to
> > connect the 830 to a home computer.

Yep. But I think the cables that came with your earlier Garmin
Edge devices would also work with the 830.


> > ...This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi

> > data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express
> > seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your
> > password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their
> > passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows
> > normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one
> > password for something jeopardizing that of some more
> > important access such as your bank account or whatever.
> >
> > Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to
> > register my new 830 after a very painful long production that
> > was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated
> > software package on your computer and you phone needs to have
> > Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the
> > procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.

The Garmin software and connectivity systems leave a great deal to
be desired. I've always found pairing them to the phone to be
incredibly painful. It's very persnickety about the order it's
done.

> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

Fantastic, congratulations!

> > Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The
> > bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical
> > contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an
> > accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a
> > holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
>
> The contacts are for an extra battery pack you can use with the
> 830 to extend the battery life. Can be important for tpuring

> when you don???t be able to charge your 830 every day. Garmins

> battery pack comes with a special out front mount. You put the
> 830 on top of the mount and the battery pack below and the
> necessary contacts are connected.

Ah, very interesting. I don't think the 820 has this feature. My
unit is maybe five years old now, and its battery is losing
capacity. A two-hour ride takes it down near 50%, not good.
Maybe getting to be time for a replacement.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Tom Kunich]

Thanks Lou, since most of my rides are no longer than overnighters, the battery life isn't a problem.

[Lou Holtman]

The battery pack is also ridiculously expensive. My brother has a Edge 830 and does 4 hours rides most of the time and he says the battery life is about 3-4 rides, so around 15 hours.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Now that everything is set up properly, the 830 is so sensitive that it shows FEET I walk around the house. I was going to take it out on a ride but will leave that until tomorrow.

[Roger Merriman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly
> the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others
> that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the
> data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a
> problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network
> but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless
> you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize
> their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally
> memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something
> jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>

Don’t need to give it the WiFi password, I have for places I stay often as
it’s generally faster. And doesn’t need the phone close by.

Yes it will need a usb cable that supports Data as well.

> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new
> 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the
> fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and
> you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow
> the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.

don’t need Garmin Express (desktop program) bar map updates. Which
annoyingly don’t come down via Connect (phone app)

Many ways it’s easier via the phone than the computer, I already had lot of
stuff set up from the Garmin 520 which I have, and is sitting dead in a
draw…

Ie I powered it up connected to the phone and as it had my account anyway
it just imported that.

I did set up two profiles as MTB/Gravel are different uses and so on.

>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I
> watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and
> the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window.
> Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I
> wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is
> supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the
> BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or
> at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is
> located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look
> for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to
> discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to
> be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says
> "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on
> your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they
> don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and
> his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.

There is a quick start guide in the box, and link in that for the manual
proper if one wants, I do have the manual as well they are complicated bits
of kit.

Garmin are not alone in not providing paper manuals anymore, to be honest I
just powered on, let phone and it talk, and used the Manual for some set up
stuff much later after a few rides etc.

>
> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>
> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the
> 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone
> know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply
> put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
>

Been answered but battery pack, which seems somewhat redundant since in my
experience only uses 15/20% for most rides.

But I guess some folks will ride for days on end?

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I suppose that it would be good for tourists that ride into areas where an electrical connection isn't available. Though I've toured a bit I was never in that situation where a fast charger wouldn't put everything to right with a line of people waiting.

[Tom Kunich]

Yesterday I intended to do a climbing ride and road out to Niles and had a muffin and coffee before attempting the rather dangerous road into Niles Canyon to Palomares Rd. (The rather odd translation from Spanish means that there are doves along side of the road - can't say that I remember ever seeing doves on that 1,000 ft. climb or descent) While sitting waiting for the light to change so that I could cross Mission Blvd. I could see a sign that said that Palomares was closed. Now, that was highly unlikely but rather than ride that horrible canyon road to find that it was closed, I took a long route back along the flats. So I put in 42 miles at my normal average on the flats of 11.5 mph. Since I was on the Airborne titanium bike which is more at home on the flats than in the hills, that was just as well. Thursday I will pass 900 miles for the year if it doesn't rain and be working on crossing 2,000 meters of climbing for the year. I expect to get in 125,000 ft or 39,000 meters of climbing for the year. The Garmin 830 worked flawlessly which leads me to wonder how it could ever work at all in the initial 4.14 miles without being set up properly.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Please understand I am not being too critical of you Tom. But this post brings up a very obvious contradiction, discrepancy that I feel compelled to point out to you. And everyone else. In this post you state:

"So I put in 42 miles at my normal average on the flats of 11.5 mph."

Great. Yeah. But Tom, 11.5 mph average speed for 42 miles is NOT a fast racing speed. Again, I am not criticizing your speed. For a 77 year old man, its great to just ride a bicycle at any speed. But 11.5 mph is a very moderate speed for any age rider. YET, in other numerous posts, you brag about how you ride away from young racer boys on all of your hilly rides. You have repeatedly claimed you rode away from groups of young racer boys on hills. I recall one where you passed or dropped several racer boys on a hill and then stopped at the top for a drink and they gasped and wheezed their way past you and coasted down the hill to get as far from you as possible. And maybe you coasted past them on the way down and left them in the dust too. I've forgotten some of your stories.

So I have to ask, how does someone who claims to ride 11.5 mph average on the flats, which is a fine pace, be able to embarrass and humiliate young racer boys on the hills by dropping them? 2 + 2 does not equal 4 here.

Now Tom, if you said your average speed on the flat was 18.5 mph, way above your stated average of 11.5 mph, then maybe possibly we could believe skeptically that you ride away from the young racer boys on the hills. But probably not. Now if you say your average flat riding speed is 22.5 mph, then yes we would easily believe you ride away from the young racer boys and leave them gasping in shame and humiliation. But 11.5 mph average speed on the flats? Something is not adding up here.

[Tom Kunich]

I did another 40 mile ride today with almost 2,000 feet of climbing that put me over 10,000 feet so far. One of the very odd things that occurred was that while I was climbing some pretty steep stuff that had me concentrating on turning the cranks over. This was a little side road that people shouldn't be driving on because of road conditions and bicyclists commonly make this climb. A safe speed limit on this road would be 25 mph since there are driveways exiting onto it that are completely blind. And the majority of the road is in fairly deep shadows from tree cover. So of course cars were coming by in groups of 5 at 45 mph.

Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on the Garmin with plenty of road problems.

So my guess was 11% and the climb is mostly at this rate for 2 miles. Though there are some downhills from which you then have to climb the same altitude yet again. Finally came down into the San Ramon Valley and looked down and the Garman had stopped running yet again. The road wasn't rough that I had just gone through so there wasn't any obvious reason not only for the speed and mileage to die but the timer as well had stopped. I pushed the run button but it showed a STOPPED screen. Turning it back on had no effect. 11 miles later, I climbed another 800 feet with some really steep spots and cars zooming by and then pulling over into the bike lane despite plenty of room. At the top of that climb is a small park where you can use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized. At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the problem to appear.

[Tom Kunich]

Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?

Garmin support though it may take quite a bit of time to get through is friendly and I was told that actual failures are rare and that problems as I've been having are usually set-up problems. One thing that I might complain about is that there is a difference between set-up and what appears to be the same screen running in normal. But again, this is something that simply has to be worked through. Reading the manual doesn't seem to make the understanding of these things any easier. Often the meanings are not what the titles would appear. Autostart at 6 mph sort of appears as if it is also an autostop at 6 mph. But it isn't.

Looking at the Garmin plot I discovered that the top of Norris Canyon which I assumed to be 600-800 feet is rather 1,000 feet. No wonder it seems so far a climb. And then the second climb of the day is 800 feet rather than the 600 feet which it is on the other side of the Freeway. Judging distance climbed is difficult as is percentage of climb. While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper than it actually is. But when you're approaching a steeper part of the climb from a pretty steep climb it doesn't appear to be that must steeper even when it is. Going from 8% to 9% to 10% and 11% looks like no change at all except in your legs. Topping a climb of 12% does make you very happy though.

[Ted Heise]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 08:14:46 -0800 (PST),
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:19:54 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about

> > > it...

> > > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

> > Finally I got to a section that I felt was a lot less steep
> > and I could more or less relax and climb without fear of
> > pooping out. When I looked at the grade on the Garmin it gave
> > me 8.5% So I wonder what the steep sections were. But I
> > couldn't take the time to try to focus on the small window on
> > the Garmin with plenty of road problems.

I too have times when the Garmin display is too small (or too dim)
to see clearly. Frustrating, for sure.


> > ...At the top of that climb is a small park where you can

> > use restrooms and get water. I had to sit down after using the
> > toilet so I was at an adjacent bench and looked over the
> > Garmin. It all seemed to be OK and I turned it on and off a
> > couple of times which didn't seem to start the timer. But when
> > I took off to make the final 14 miles back to home, the speedo
> > was working again. At one point the display said "Lap 4" and I
> > hit the left button and that disappeared and the base screen
> > reappeared. Finally 2 miles from home the Garmin again seized.
> > At no point did there seem to be any sort of reasons for the
> > problem to appear.
>
> Calling up Garmin support today, I was shown some "features" of
> the Edge 830. There are some auto start and stop features that
> I'm not clear the reason for. So I simply put the unit into
> "manual" which would make the start and stop functions the same
> as the 800. Also there is some sort of auto-lap function that I
> certainly don't understand. There was only one point in the
> ride in which I passed the same point I had crossed on the way
> out. So how could I have gotten 4 laps in?

Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more than
once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does seem
weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's configured on a
certain distance?

Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions, these
may be so that the average speed is not affected by stops. After
a ride you can find average moving time, but I haven't found a way
to show it on my 820. Another reason for it may be to stay
competitive with a virtual partner--that simulated rider never
stops, so if you stop for any length of time you are constantly
falling behind (unless you stop the unit).


> ...While you are coasting down a slight descent and approaching

> the next climb it always appears to be a great deal steeper
> than it actually is.

That is so true! Even after many years of riding, and knowing
this phenomenon, I'm still often surprised by the difference.

Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
behavior.

[Tom Kunich]

The lap function you think would be a good idea if you were racing since it would keep you abreast of when the last lap was. But I would think that this could only work if you passed the same location again and again. In the case of my ride, the route only came together at one point and then traced the incoming route back to home. But maybe you have to set that up as well. Since I have no interest in laps, I just want it not to be blocking the view of the main screen. So I turned that from default 'ON' to 'OFF'.

Because of the tree shadows and the size of that rate of climb window I couldn't see the actual rate of climb on the steep parts so the relative ease of climbing at 8.5% out in bright sun surprised me. That is not a mild climb. Horses can only pull wagon loads up to 7%.

Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my winter belly that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that without being shot for the rest of the ride always shows me the condition I'm in. And there is a metric century next month that I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of climbing but one section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up that. I haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.

[Ted Heise]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:01:54 -0800 (PST),

> > Thanks for letting us know what you found regarding the Garmin
> > behavior.

> The lap function you think would be a good idea if you were
> racing since it would keep you abreast of when the last lap
> was. But I would think that this could only work if you passed
> the same location again and again. In the case of my ride, the
> route only came together at one point and then traced the
> incoming route back to home. But maybe you have to set that up
> as well. Since I have no interest in laps, I just want it not
> to be blocking the view of the main screen. So I turned that
> from default 'ON' to 'OFF'.

Good solution. I wish I could even disable use of the button that
manually starts a new lap, but am not aware of a way to do that.

> Because of the tree shadows and the size of that rate of climb
> window I couldn't see the actual rate of climb on the steep
> parts so the relative ease of climbing at 8.5% out in bright
> sun surprised me. That is not a mild climb. Horses can only
> pull wagon loads up to 7%.
>
> Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my
> winter belly that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that
> without being shot for the rest of the ride always shows me the
> condition I'm in. And there is a metric century next month that
> I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of climbing but one
> section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up that. I
> haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.

Yeah, those more recent Garmin displays can be hard to read in
some lighting conditions. And 20% for half a mile? I would be
walking, no doubt!

[Roger Merriman]

Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!

By old I mean pre Roman generally, of which a sizeable number still exists,
and even the Romans where pragmatic, ie if the old road isn’t dead straight
but is the only sane way up, then that’s what you do, see Hardknott pass
for a good example.

>
> Now there is a section I will climb after I get rid of my winter belly
> that is 16% for a quarter mile and climbing that without being shot for
> the rest of the ride always shows me the condition I'm in. And there is a
> metric century next month that I am entered in. It only has 2200 feet of
> climbing but one section is 20% for half a mile. Most people push up
> that. I haven't found that necessary but there's always a first time.

I’d take the indicated grades with a pinch of salt, rather like estimated
power! Generally okay for average grade over a hill, but peak values are
frankly junk!
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Well, in the case of this ride, that climb showed that grade on my German speedo/altimeter the entire distance and there wasn't even a bobble on that grade. I remembered the Three Bears as a hard climb but after that short hard climb I didn't even notice that I was climbing and asked some guy I was riding with if there weren't the Three Bears on this ride and he said, "You're on Papa Bear right now!".

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse and cart can be pushed up
> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its lack of power, triggered
> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct up!

Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I came across a road
that's well within my riding territory, but that I'd somehow never
ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome looking climb - or rather, I
saw that the road must go up to the top of a very tall ridge; the road
itself wasn't visible through the trees.

I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."

I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
complete the climb.

So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

American maybe different, I assume native Americans had pack roads in
places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old, often hug the ridge
line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes that more modern roads
use.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some roads dated back to
the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback" roads. But equally
true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme slopes.There is always a way
around although it may be longer (:-)

As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that prior to the invasion
of the Europeans that had anything more then foot paths as their only
"beast of burden" was a dog.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in North America before Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they found America? Had Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans brought them over to North America?

[John B.]

Actually, I didn't get my statement exactly correct. I should have
written:
"as their only "beast(s) of burden" was a dog or a wife" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

After going through the setup procedure with the Garmin support, somehow the battery life switch had been thrown, this had the absolutely bizarre effect of turning off the display unless you touched the screen and then it would remain on for about 10 seconds and go dark again. Easy enough to fix but I certainly don't remember having anything to do with that switch while setting it up. It isn't as if I need longer battery life. So perhaps one of the other changes caused that automatically. Once you know how to get into the Setup function it is easy to do just about anything with the Garmin.

[Ted Heise]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2022 08:16:21 -0700 (PDT),
Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

> > The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember...

> > This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a
> > manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the

> > on-line manual is located...

> > In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.

> After going through the setup procedure with the Garmin
> support, somehow the battery life switch had been thrown, this
> had the absolutely bizarre effect of turning off the display
> unless you touched the screen and then it would remain on for
> about 10 seconds and go dark again. Easy enough to fix but I
> certainly don't remember having anything to do with that switch
> while setting it up. It isn't as if I need longer battery life.
> So perhaps one of the other changes caused that automatically.

Interesting. For me, it's often hard to keep track of all the
various options as I work through configuring things like this.
It's sometimes the case that I inadvertently change something I
didn't mean to when flailing about with other settings.

> Once you know how to get into the Setup function it is easy to
> do just about anything with the Garmin.

I agree. Some of the process and paradigms (like the use of
profiles as a top level organizational thing) are not intuitive
(at least to me), but there really is a great deal of flexibility.
My old etrex is even more highly configurable. Quite something,
really.

[Tom Kunich]

Well, I would think that Garmin should realize who their major audience is and have a standard setup for them. There could be a pro setup and a sport setup. This would be quite easy to do with their system the way it is. This would be a very small change to their firmware. It is presently at 9.1 and the changes would not make a new version but a small change to the present version.

[AMuzi]

That's correct.
No wheels, virtually no metalworking, no draft animals
except llamas in the Andes. What was here was warfare
slavery and periodic starvation, just like everywhere else
(not an idyllic Eden).

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

There were none of those things.

We don't think of it that way, but it was still the Stone Age in
pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or whatever's the
correct term this week) had some limited use of copper, but typically
their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They certainly had no iron or
steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were societies and trading
systems that were advanced in other ways.

Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well worth reading.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

There has never been an organized government in the world that didn't have slavery as an intricate part of it until fossil fuels came along. So those who are anti-fossil fuel perhaps without knowing are pro-slavery.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/13/2022 11:59 AM, Ted Heise wrote:
>
>
> I agree. Some of the process and paradigms (like the use of
> profiles as a top level organizational thing) are not intuitive
> (at least to me), but there really is a great deal of flexibility.
> My old etrex is even more highly configurable. Quite something,
> really.

Those sorts of Operator Interface problems seem common in lots of
programmable electronic devices. ISTM that the people doing the
interfaces are adequate at writing the underlying code, but often
terrible at presenting information or choices in a sensible way.

It makes me think that programming curricula need to add some Human
Factors requirements.

But that will help only those programmers who actually get formal
educations. I don't know if that's even the majority these days. I know
a couple people working heavily to promote "Coding Boot Camps." The idea
seems to be "Just quickly learn the basics and get a job!"

I'm afraid a lot will be left out. :-(


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Indeed!

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that claimed the Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world diseases?

[AMuzi]

Interpretation of 'intentional' may vary.

Lousy trade both ways -Europeans brought back syphilis which
is similar but not the same as yaws, a less serious endemic
disease of Africa/Europe.

There's also a large body of work on the social/political
effects of malaria from 1500 onwards.

[Frank Krygowski]

<sigh> No, Tom.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t recall purposely, after
all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

They didn't know what caused it but they know about "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease that did not show on people could infect others that had never been exposed to it.

So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.

[John B.]

But Tommy, fossil fuel was used as much as 3,000 years ago. You mean
that slavery ended 3,000 years ago, in Europe?
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/MAGAZINE-archaeologists-identify-oldest-use-of-fossil-fuels-in-europe-1.10480844

Can it be? that the indomitable Tommy is wrong.... again?

(My spell checker is off line, should that have been spelled
"abominable"?)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source that says what
you claimed.

Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish people said. Pay
attention to what they've actually said. Take notes so you can tell the
difference, because your "memory" isn't working.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>> recall purposely, after
>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point

>>
>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>> never been exposed to it.
>>
>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>
> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
> that says what you claimed.
>
> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
> "memory" isn't working.
>

A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.

https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/

Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
hands of Columbus and his men."

[Jeff Liebermann]

Yep. Louis Pasteur is generally credited with discovering the
connection between bacteria and disease in 1851. Prior to that,
disease was caused by foul air (miasma), witchcraft, anger of the
gods, divine retribution, foreigners, etc. However, the ancients
observed that many diseases were contagious by contact. That resulted
in "germ warfare" in the form of catapulting plague victims over the
walls of besieged castles[1]. Also, an increase in the popularity of
cremation. They had no idea of how disease was passed on, but knew
that physical contact with the victim or corpse was involved.

Incidentally, the 5 books of Moses includes instructions for
quarantine, washing, ritual bathing, dietary restrictions, etc for
reducing the spread of leprosy, venereal disease, and childhood
diseases. They had no clue how it worked, but knew that if one
followed the instruction manual, they had a better chance of surviving
the all too common plagues (as in the "chosen people").

[1] Some will argue that germ warfare by catapult was generally
ineffective:
"Catapulted Death: Can a Flying Corpse Distribute the Plague?"
<https://www.montana.edu/historybug/yersiniaessays/broughton.html>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Roger Merriman]

Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
your father only go so far.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

The trouble with Frank is that he isn't interested one iota in the truth. He simply wants to oppose anything I have to say. Remember that in 1984 Orwell wrote that every day at a certain time you were encouraged to hate everyone else for two minutes? Well, Frank has made an art out of it and devotes his entire lifetime to it. This is what the he has become. And why is that? Because he never became anything. Imagine the feelings that shoot through him every time he realizes that someone without HIS education changed the world and he couldn't even change himself. He carries so much hatred about that that I have no doubts that if he is admitted to an emergency hospital and realizes that he is being treated by one of the machines I pioneered that he will have a stroke and die rather than admit that someone with a "mere" high school education did that.

[Tom Kunich]

Roger, you know and I know that while it is possible that Old World diseases were introduced by Columbus and not much later explorers, the Woke need someone to blame the ills of the world on and so the modern day rendition of witchcraft remains with people like Frank and Jeff. Everything is the fault of someone else and not themselves. It isn't their fault that they drive and produce CO2, it is the fault of oil companies.

Spectroscopy shows that CO2 has NO effect on long term weather. That it is the Earth-Sun orbital system that over time gives us warmer or colder weather. CO2 was 5 times higher in the last Ice Age than it is now but the Woke will not accept that and will continue to tell us that it is man made global warming.

I am told that Johnny has said that 3,000 years ago Exxon and Mobil existed. But then he has made so many claims of the sort that it is hard to see his name without laughing. Even when his own buddies turn on him because he is willing to make claims about guns being nothing more than tools.

[Frank Krygowski]

That is accurate. What Tom claimed is NOT accurate - that Columbus
deliberately infected them, or that any knowledgeable person claimed
that Columbus deliberately infected them.

If Columbus had not "discovered" America, some other European would have
done so. Even if that other European had magically perfect attitudes and
practices according to the most liberal 21st century standards, European
diseases would still have depopulated the continent.

Diamond's book noted that the diseases traveled far faster than the
Europeans, so that the first Europeans traveling many hundreds of miles
inland found villages empty of all but dead bodies.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 08:01:50 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:


>Roger, you know and I know that while it is possible that Old World diseases were introduced by Columbus and not much later explorers, the Woke need someone to blame the ills of the world on and so the modern day rendition of witchcraft remains with people like Frank and Jeff. Everything is the fault of someone else and not themselves. It isn't their fault that they drive and produce CO2, it is the fault of oil companies.

Speaking of Columbus, not much has changed in 530 years. Columbus's
expedition was organized to find a new homeland and solve Spain's
"Jewish Problem":
"Columbus discovered USA as he fled Spanish Inquisition persecution"
<https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/914775/Christopher-Columbus-Jewish-spanish-inquisition-discovery-of-america>
(Feb 5, 2018)
Meanwhile, Jeff and others are actively seeking a new home for Tom in
a red state. Predictably, this will end in the same manner as
Columbus; disaster and disgrace. Nothing really changes.

[ Five minutes wasted on providing Tom his daily dose of attention
while preparing my witches breakfast brew. ]

Bubble, bubble toil and trouble;
Fire burn and oil will bubble.
Wax of bees.
Sap of trees.
A fiber rag.
To reduce drag.
Now dip and run,
the chain is done.
Now I may ride,
with greatest pride.

[AMuzi]

>>>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>>>> recall purposely, after
>>>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at

Yes, that's right. Overmuch is made of disease spread at
first significant contact but none of it was intentional.

[Tom Kunich]

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:

> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>
> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>
> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>
> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>

> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>

> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?

For my Sunday ride I did a 38 mile ride and the Garmin Edge 830 stopped recording speed and distance after 5 miles. Again I contacted Garmin and again they were polite and helpful. It appears that they have a new Beta firmware release that is supposed to fix a common problem where mileage stops recording. This was my problem so I went through a rather complicated process (it would be easy the second time around) to download and install the Beta firmware. I might be riding tomorrow if it doesn't rain as predicted. If I do ride I will be able to see if the latest firmware repairs the problem.

Since I have begun relying completely on the Garmin for speed, distance and climbing, it is a pain in the butt when it stops working. The other day on a 25 mile ride it logged the correct mileage and speed but the Battery Saver mode was engaged and the you had to touch the screen and only a few seconds went by before the display would blank. So while I've been having all of these problems with the Edge 830 it is plainly not a hardware problem but rather a firmware programming problem. The question is why Garmin would release this with problems? It appears that they are so busy developing and releasing new products for cars, airplanes, boats, running, wrist etc. that they can't be bother with their core product line.

This is the usual company growth problem and what has put so many companies out of business. The sort of thing that Franks thinks as abnormal. As if he could even guess at it.

[Sir Ridesalot]

How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

Since the germ theory of pathogens was discovered 1860-1864 by Louis Pasteur exactly when were these blankets handed out and could it have been possible that they were washed first which would have rendered them safe?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/14/2022 4:32 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 11:25:22 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> The Garmin Edge 830 has a few things you must remember about it. Firstly the common charging cable that comes with it is incompatible with others that appear the same. Although they allow charging they do not have the data lines necessary to connect the 830 to a home computer. This isn't a problem IF you have the 830 set up to WiFi data through your home network but the standard Garmin Express seems to block access to your WiFi unless you know your password. These days most people don't commonly memorize their passwords and use wildly different passwords since Windows normally memorizes them for you and you don't want one password for something jeopardizing that of some more important access such as your bank account or whatever.
>>
>> Playing around with Garmin Express I finally got it to register my new 830 after a very painful long production that was based mostly on the fact that 1. You need the updated software package on your computer and you phone needs to have Garmin Connect app on it and you have to follow the procedures. This brought the 830 into the fold.
>>
>> But it still wouldn't change display windows as it showed in the video I watched. I suppose that they assumed that you were already in setup and the setup window of course looks identical to the normal data window. Once that was straighten out I got the data windows setup the way I wanted them. I will still have to test it all after a ride but it is supposed to download from the 830 directly into the computer via the BlueTooth link and you would use the cable only for charging.
>>
>> This all would have been a lot less painful if they included a manual or at least a paper with the website on it where the on-line manual is located. Being a bit old fashion I don't think it is fashionable to look for everything via Google and then sort through all of the entries to discover the one which will fill your needs and which always turns out to be the wrong one. If you hit the one of a million entries that says "Garmin Connect" it starts up a Garmin connect elsewhere that runs on your home computer. Maybe some people find that helpful because they don't have enough storage space. But I don't much care for everyone and his brother knowing what I am doing at any time.
>>
>> In any case, the 830 is now registered and setup.
>>
>> Here is a question in case any of you have an answer: The bottom of the 830 inside the twist connector has 4 electrical contacts. Does anyone know what this is for? Is there an accessory charger so that you simply put your 830 into a holder to charge rather than fighting that cable?
>

> For my Sunday ride I did a 38 mile ride and the Garmin Edge 830 stopped recording speed and distance after 5 miles. ...

>
> This is the usual company growth problem and what has put so many companies out of business. The sort of thing that Franks thinks as abnormal. As if he could even guess at it.

Your fantasy life is rich indeed. I haven't commented on Garmin's or any
other company's growth problems at all.

Again, if you wish to debate me, comment on what I've actually said, not
on what you wish I'd said.

As for your Garmin problems: I put them in the same category as your Di2
problems, your bottom bracket problems, your slipping handlebar
problems, your component incompatibility problems, your Usenet quoting
problems and all the rest of the misery you relate. Those and so many
others problems have one thing in common: They seem to occur only to you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, that happened. But Columbus wasn't British. Tom is still wrong, as
usual.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

>> >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>> >>>> recall purposely, after
>> >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point

>> >>>
>> >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>> >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>> >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>> >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>> >>> never been exposed to it.
>> >>>
>> >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>> >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>> >>
>> >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>> >> that says what you claimed.
>> >>
>> >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>> >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>> >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>> >> "memory" isn't working.
>> >>
>> >
>> > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>> >
>> > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>> >
>> > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
>> > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
>> > hands of Columbus and his men."
>> >
>> >
>> Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
>> your father only go so far.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?
>
>Cheers

Sir Jeffrey Amherst apparently wrote in a official letter, "“Could it
not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes
of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our
power to Reduce them.”

However no evidence exists that his suggestion was acted upon by the
authorities.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich

>> > >>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>> > >>>> recall purposely, after
>> > >>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at that point

>> > >>>
>> > >>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>> > >>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>> > >>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>> > >>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>> > >>> never been exposed to it.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>> > >>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>> > >>
>> > >> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>> > >> that says what you claimed.
>> > >>
>> > >> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>> > >> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>> > >> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>> > >> "memory" isn't working.
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>> > >
>> > > https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>> > >
>> > > Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands of
>> > > them were killed either by disease, by overworking or by the
>> > > hands of Columbus and his men."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Indeed, but realistically the disease isn’t deliberate, and frankly sins of
>> > your father only go so far.
>> >
>> > Roger Merriman
>> How about when the British gave blankets from smallpox wards to the natives?
>
>Since the germ theory of pathogens was discovered 1860-1864 by Louis Pasteur exactly when were these blankets handed out and could it have been possible that they were washed first which would have rendered them safe?

There seems to be no evidence that blankets were actually given out,
at least by anyone in authority. But the chap that suggested it, Sir
Jeffery Amherst, died in 1797.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 13:02:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>
> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
> complete the climb.
>
> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.

Was the climb ever interrupted by flat spots about the length of a
horse and wagon?

I was told that such spots in the roads up the eastern cliffs of the
Helderburgs were called "horse breaks". Or it could have been
"brakes".

"Break", as in "take a break", seems most logical, but "brake" has
many meanings. This is, alas, unGoogleable.

Just like "section house". I was told that farmhouses with half-mile
lanes marked the sites of "section houses" -- houses built in the
middle of a homesteaded "section" (mile square), to minimize the
distance the farmer had to walk to tend fields, harvest firewood and
game, etc. But railroad "section houses" are much more recent and
numerous.

We're back to farming whole sections, but patched together from the
farms of widows and orphans.

I really ought to crosspost to alt.usage.english .

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Tom Kunich]

Joy, I can tell you for absolute certainty that you CANNOT get horsedrawn wagons to go up anything steeper than a steady 7%. This isn't to say that this cannot have a short 8% grade but roads going up a hill in a straight line are walking roads and not for horses. Like bicycles, horses are a flat ground device that can only be forced up hills. That is why wild horses are found on plains and not usually in hilly terrain.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 3/14/2022 11:12 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 13:02:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it can't possibly go
>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse pulling a wagon could
>> never make it straight up. There must be switchbacks."
>>
>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the grade, but I remember
>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still needing to stand to
>> complete the climb.
>>
>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was backwards.
>
>
> Was the climb ever interrupted by flat spots about the length of a
> horse and wagon?

Not that I remember. But I'll confess to being blinded with sweat and
fatigue on that climb.

>
> I was told that such spots in the roads up the eastern cliffs of the
> Helderburgs were called "horse breaks". Or it could have been
> "brakes".
>
> "Break", as in "take a break", seems most logical, but "brake" has
> many meanings. This is, alas, unGoogleable.
>
> Just like "section house". I was told that farmhouses with half-mile
> lanes marked the sites of "section houses" -- houses built in the
> middle of a homesteaded "section" (mile square), to minimize the
> distance the farmer had to walk to tend fields, harvest firewood and
> game, etc. But railroad "section houses" are much more recent and
> numerous.
>
> We're back to farming whole sections, but patched together from the
> farms of widows and orphans.
>
> I really ought to crosspost to alt.usage.english .
>


--

- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

In the wild yes they came from the plains of Asia, this said horses are
quite capable of hilly ground, unlike for example machines which will
struggle beyond a point.

Where I grew up the woods remained even with the industrial Revolution
starting around them, due to the slope of the gorge, ie no mechanical way
to cut and then transport the trees, on such a slope.

Folks do use horses on similar areas for managed woods as the horses (cart
horses) can cope with the slope, and nimble and strong enough to haul
either the trees or the cut wood out.

There are even breeds intended for steep rough land, Welsh Cob for example
is a sure footed horse that can cope, with the Welsh hill which though not
high are steep.

American is in terms of roads/tracks and horses etc, was only just before
the industrial revolution, so I’d suspect a lot are intended with that in
mind.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Just to remind you, I am 77 and in my youth I still saw horses and carts. The Milk was early on still delivered that way until they designed and build signature Milk Wagons. San Francisco early on attempted to use horses to haul materials around to build houses etc. on the rather steep hillsides and were not a whole lot successful. So they designed streets of more than 7% to use Cable Cars and later most of the city was and still is served with Trolley cars. Buses are now beginning to take over since initial costs of Trolley construction is quite high. Here is an article where a horse-drawn cart not in the rain but merely on wet roads slid down the hill and killed both horses. For those of you unfamiliar with horses, their owners soon think of them the same way as a loyal dog and before I got so tall horses used to come over to the fences to be pet and scratched.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Steep-S-F-hills-overcome-with-Hallidie-s-cable-6295164.php

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Joy, I can tell you for absolute certainty that you CANNOT get horsedrawn wagons to go up anything steeper than a steady 7%. This isn't to say that this cannot have a short 8% grade but roads going up a hill in a straight line are walking roads and not for horses. Like bicycles, horses are a flat ground device that can only be forced up hills. That is why wild horses are found on plains and not usually in hilly terrain.

Tom... The problem with horses and mules going up a grade is usually
solved by adding additional horses or mules to the team. For example,
20 mule team Borax hauling out of Death Valley (average elevation -282
ft (86m) below sea level). The real problem was going *DOWN* a grade.
It seems that horses and mules don't have brakes. It's not a problem
for the 20 mule team, because the drivers simply broke up the team and
allowed the horses or mules to descend individually. However, if they
had to descend into Death Valley as a team and with a load, it
wouldn't work.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=20+mule+team&tbm=isch>

Notice the oversized wheel on the trailing end of the wagon, large
axle hubs and the rather huge wheel brake:
<https://www.dvconservancy.org/20-mule-team-borax-wagons/>

Here's a photo of the main road and some numbers:
<https://wildlandtrekking.com/blog/twenty-mule-team-canyon/>
"There were only 18 mules in each team. 2 horses were hitched closest
to the wagon to steer the heavy loads."

<https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/desolation-canyon-trail>
Looks like Desolation Canyon is 750 ft elevation and 3.5 miles (18,480
ft).
770 / 18,480 = 4.2% slope
Not too horrible but I still wouldn't try it going downhill on 38
mules and 2 horses.

[Roger Merriman]

You maybe old but not that old, most of the road around where you are, will
be at most be a few hundred years old, and will predate you.

American existence (ie after Columbus) is during and after the industrial
revolution, only a fairly short period pre industrial.

And yes horses simply aren’t strong enough for that sort of loads, unless
helped, ie such as canals.

Pre industrial roads, the loads where much less, and considering how few
miles you reasonably could do in a day, going around a hill was less
attractive than going over, at such low speeds direct within reason was
best.

And there where other reasons traveling was risky business, hence lot of
the old roads route along the ridge edge so there are no nasty surprises!

It’s particularly noticeable if you have the old and new road side by side.

Snake Pass between Manchester (Glossip) to Sheffield is one such example
where the new road (1821) climbs up following the contours of the land,
where as the old (Roman) road takes both a more direct route to the extent
of dropping from one side of the valley ridge line to cross and climb on to
the ridge of the next.

Roger Merriman

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 12:27:20 PM UTC-5, Ted Heise wrote:

> Interesting. I wondered about your report of multiple laps
> recorded and whether you may have inadvertantly pushed the lap
> counter button. I have definitely done that on my 820 more than
> once! An autolap function makes more sense, but it does seem
> weird it would cut in thatmany times. Maybe it's configured on a
> certain distance?

I have a newer Forerunner 745.

Yes, Garmin configures 'laps' by distance. That's in the manual.

>
> Regarding the autostart (and prsumably autostop) functions, these
> may be so that the average speed is not affected by stops. After
> a ride you can find average moving time, but I haven't found a way
> to show it on my 820. Another reason for it may be to stay
> competitive with a virtual partner--that simulated rider never
> stops, so if you stop for any length of time you are constantly
> falling behind (unless you stop the unit).

It's partially for taking the zeros out of your average speed, but it's more for the convenience of not having to remember to press stop and start every time you stop and start.

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:33:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Well sort of. No horses don't have brakes but wagons have brakes.
https://www.dvconservancy.org/20-mule-team-borax-wagons/
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Strange isn't it. I grew up in rural New Hampshire where horses were
still used - mostly in farming - but an "occasional old fellow" might
still drive a wagon the town on Saturday. In fact the last time I
visited the town I grew up i there were still two hitching posts at
the Town Common marked "Horses Only".

Funny I can't remember any cautions about going up hill with a horse
and wagon.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I grew up in rural New Hampshire where hills are just part if the
landscape. In fact my "family home" is on top of a hill with a
(roughly) mile climb to get there.

And growing up - I'm older then Tommy - there were still horses and
wagons being used, mainly in farming and the lumber business. Our
closest neighbor farmed with a team until I was in high school and
teams were commonly used to"snake" logs out to loading ramps in the
winter. Mt Washington one of the highest mountains in the East - the
road has 12% slopes - has been "climbed" with a horse and buggy.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2022 06:00:48 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Oops. That should be 18 mules, not 38 mules.

>Well sort of. No horses don't have brakes but wagons have brakes.
>https://www.dvconservancy.org/20-mule-team-borax-wagons/

I already provide that URL and mentioned the rather large brakes.
Please scroll up a few lines.

The two wagons, water tank, and borax load in this video weight about
73,200 pounds:
<https://www.legendsofamerica.com/ca-20muleteams/>
Ignoring axle and rolling friction, a 5 degree downward tilt in the
road will result in a forward force component of:
73,200 * sin(5) = 6,400 lbs
all of which will need to be absorbed by the brakes. With two wagons
and two men on the brakes, each wagon brake will need to absorb half
or 3,200 lbs. I can't clearly see the braking mechanism in the photos
but my guess(tm) is about a 10:1 mechanical advantage. That means
each brake operator would need to apply 320 lbs to the brake lever to
keep the wagons from running over the mules.

The railroad head was in Bishop, CA which is at an elevation of 4,100
ft. Death Valley averages about -282 ft elevation. For a distance of
160 miles and 5,280 ft/mile, that would be:
arctan ((4,100 + 282) / (160 * 5280 )) = 0.3 degrees slope
Kinda looks like most of the road was flat.

[Rolf Mantel]

I'd rather re-phrase it as "military roads tend to take a direct route"
while peacetime roads tend to be localized connections, using existing
bridges. The best known military roads in Europe are
1) roman roads
2) Napleonic roads

Rolf

[Roger Merriman]

Roman yes, they did built new roads and paved/cleared sight lines, but they
also did to this to existing Roads, which is more common than folks might
imagine.

It’s quite probable that the “Roman” Snake Pass existed before the Romans
as generally old maps named old roads as Roman. And places such as
Manchester predate the Romans.

So no it’s not just military roads far from it, the Military aspect was the
surface and width so you could travel at relative speed. Plus maintenance
of both the surface and clearing the sides.

Roger Merriman

[Rolf Mantel]

> Roman yes, they did built new roads and paved/cleared sight lines, but they
> also did to this to existing Roads, which is more common than folks might
> imagine.
>
> It’s quite probable that the “Roman” Snake Pass existed before the Romans
> as generally old maps named old roads as Roman. And places such as
> Manchester predate the Romans.
>
> So no it’s not just military roads far from it, the Military aspect was the
> surface and width so you could travel at relative speed. Plus maintenance
> of both the surface and clearing the sides.

Comparison of road networks in Germany and France clearly show that this
is not true.

Look at an important non-military trade road in Germany, like "Kasseler
Landstraße" (B3) between Göttingen and Kassel: Zig-zag no end.
https://goo.gl/maps/EU9w1FAnWmv8Jn8Y7

A former Napoleonic national road on similarly hilly terrain in France,
N89 (re-named to D1089 after building a parallel motorway) is a lot
straigher, with only soft bends.
https://goo.gl/maps/bo7jC2id4jwBocKo8

This is one reason why between 1950 and 1990, Germany was building so
many more motorways than France: the French National Road network was
fast enough for long-distance travel (2 hours per 100 miles was
realistic in the countryside), so motorways were only needed for
capacity reasons while the German national road network was lacking both
in speed and in capacity (3-4 hours per 100 miles was expected in the
countryside).

Rolf

[Roger Merriman]

My “old” roads are 2000+ not Napoleonic road ie stuff built during the
industrial revolution, which roads started to get built with lovely
switchbacks, Snake pass was built around this time as where number of the
TDF climbs or rather improved.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

While in France I stayed at a Roman road house converted to a hotel. It was interesting that people were living in a home over 1500 years old.

[Tom Kunich]

After several rides on the Garmin 830 it now appears that the repaired firmware fixes the problem of the mileage and speed turning off. This means that if you buy a Gamin 830 you will need to make sure that it is updated to firmware version 9.26 in order to maintain its accuracy. It isn't clear why 9.1 doesn't work. It will often work for a long period of time and then suddenly stop. But this doesn't occur for the latest firmware.

[Ted Heise]

Good to know, Tom. Thanks for posting!

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA