Getting Back to EV's

[Tom Kunich]

If you read this article you learn some interesting things: These Tesla trucks go through 1.7 Kwh per mile. This means that only two full charges is more energy than the average household uses in a month.

https://www.electrive.com/2023/08/15/pepsico-cites-consumption-of-1-1-kwh-km-for-tesla-semi/

WHERE is this electricity coming from? Without the EV load on the power system blackouts from overloads were all too common.

I have made the point before that when you generate electricity at a distance and transmit it say from Grand Coulee to cities and then the loses from charging the so-called efficiency of electric cars completely disappears. Because of this, BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) has natural gas driven generators to power the rails when a train is coming through. Riding by you can hear their kick in and riding the train you can look down and see the slight amount of smoke that comes from burning natural gas.

BART engineering staff well knew that the only efficient way to use energy was to generate if locally and use it only as needed, and then shut the generators down.

Most of BART is powered off of the grid, but all of the extensions are installing their own power.

The people talking EV's haven't learned that lesson yet. An electric car can be a good idea since there are almost no moving parts in it. But the batteries are a problem waiting for a solution and the Lithium batteries are not recyclable.

[Roger Meriman]

Yes cars use a lot of energy to move around, hence being able to run,
houses for few days off the car.

Same is true with gas/oil/coal for heating the amount used per year is
relatively low in comparison.

Bikes is often quoted as the or one of the most efficient way to travel ie
relatively low amounts of energy to move quickly and far.

I believe that market for 2nd had EV batteries isn’t there yet mainly as
bar the Nissan Leaf that old batteries are still in the cars for most part
note that the oldest of this generation of EV are what 10 years old so bar
Nissan Leaf or folks that did intergalactic mileage’s batteries are still
in the cars essentially.

It’s not like your mobile phone that is small and powerful and thus runs
hot, and often is used poorly ie run to zero.

In general larger batteries seem to last better in my experience, be that
iPad vs iPhone or the batteries in E bikes or cars and so on.

Roger Merriman

[sms]

On 8/17/2023 2:18 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:

<snip>

> Yes cars use a lot of energy to move around, hence being able to run,
> houses for few days off the car.
>
> Same is true with gas/oil/coal for heating the amount used per year is
> relatively low in comparison.
>
> Bikes is often quoted as the or one of the most efficient way to travel ie
> relatively low amounts of energy to move quickly and far.
>
> I believe that market for 2nd had EV batteries isn’t there yet mainly as
> bar the Nissan Leaf that old batteries are still in the cars for most part
> note that the oldest of this generation of EV are what 10 years old so bar
> Nissan Leaf or folks that did intergalactic mileage’s batteries are still
> in the cars essentially.
>
> It’s not like your mobile phone that is small and powerful and thus runs
> hot, and often is used poorly ie run to zero.
>
> In general larger batteries seem to last better in my experience, be that
> iPad vs iPhone or the batteries in E bikes or cars and so on.

BART does have some natural gas generators that generate 480V 3 phase AC
power. These are used, in areas where there are more frequent PSPS
(Public Safety Power Shutoffs), to power the station, but not the
1000VDC traction motors of the trains. The 1000VDC power for the trains
can be routed from different areas of the system in the event one power
source goes offline.

The only part of a station that may not work during a PSPS is the
escalators, which require about 15KW to run. The elevators still work,
as does lighting and ticket machines. BART also has emergency generators
to power fans in the tunnels in case of a power failure.

As to where the system's grid electricity comes from, almost certainly
some portion of it comes from fossil fuel generators, for now.

As the U.S. moves more to EVs, we'll need more HVDC long distance
transmission lines since those lines have the lowest losses (about 3.5%
per 1000km).


--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[John B.]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 15:38:17 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

I read that California has concocted a new law that in a few years
half the trucks sold in the state must be electric.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

"concocted"...lol

[John B.]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 00:11:55 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I thought it applicable for some of their laws (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 10:02:16 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

As more and more Californians leave the state.

[John B.]

Based on population figures it doesn't look like that many people but
that may be because skilled people leaving and unskilled moving in,
there are, for example 170,000 homeless in the state - the most of any
state in the Union - as of June this year, but what is perhaps more
important is companies moving out of the state. I read that of 100
companies that moved to Texas 40% came from California.

By the way, I read that Farmers Insurance will no longer ensure homes
in Florida. What is going on?
The same company seems to be a bit reluctant to operate in California
also.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 15:58:22 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Hurricanes in Florida, fires in California.

[John B.]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 06:46:02 -0400, Catrike Rider

But how can that be? Tommy has assured us many times that there is no
global warming, no climate change, no sea level rising.

I guess the Insurance company just didn't listen to Tom. (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Sadly no one reads Bastiat nowadays. Mandated malinvestment
impoverishes everyone.

[Catrike Rider]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 18:59:41 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Neither the hurricanes, nor the forest fire are because of "global
warming." They've both been going on for ages.

[AMuzi]

Perhaps Farmer's just has better management and actuaries
than others.


The Florida phenomenon goes back a few governors to a state
run insurance scheme which changed risk/reward dramatically.

Some background:

"After Hurricane Andrew, the state formed the Florida
Hurricane Catastrophe Fund (FHCF) to protect and maintain
insurance industry capacity. It was founded in 1993 during a
special legislative session and still provides
reimbursements to insurers for a portion of their hurricane
losses."

And a more strict building code raised rebuild costs ( and
should probably reduce catastrophic losses.

"There is now a uniform set of codes across the state that
stipulate all new structures undergo tougher inspections and
be built with shatterproof glass and straps to reinforce
between roof and walls. Many of the new building code
measures were pushed for by the insurance industry in an
effort to reduce loss."

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2017/08/24/462204.htm

And the 'solution'
"Former state Rep. Don Crane, who was a legislator from 1970
to 1974, knew the levers of power in the state. He used to
own an insurance agency, helping homeowners find insurance.

After being dropped by his own insurance carrier in 2006, he
decided it was time to do something.

One of his first calls was to Bill Ballard, a recently
retired corporate attorney from St. Petersburg.

The idea they settled on was this: Combine Citizens and the
Florida Hurricane Catastrophe Fund, creating a new entity
that offered only hurricane insurance. Private carriers
would handle the more predictable forms of homeowners
insurance, such as fire and theft."

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2023/03/02/insurance-premiums-legislature-idea-property-hurricane/

[Catrike Rider]

But if the government doesn't decide for us what's in our best
interest, who will?

[John B.]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 07:48:49 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>

He was obviously some sort of radical. After all in "The Law" he
advocated that "that everyone has a right to protect "his person, his
liberty, and his property". (yes a bit of satire here (:-)

He also stated that, "if government power extends further into
philanthropic endeavors, then government becomes so limitless that it
can grow endlessly".

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Perhaps that reflects more than government interference in
the auto market:

https://nypost.com/2023/08/17/lexus-driving-san-francisco-burglar-breaks-into-line-of-cars/

[AMuzi]

Political propaganda is more popular than actual data:

https://drrichswier.com/wp-content/uploads/Fires-far-worse-last-century-e1508279855272.png

[AMuzi]

Yes, the critical question as noted by Friedman is, "Who
decides?"

https://www.alibris.com/Free-to-Choose-A-Personal-Statement-Milton-Friedman/book/2450311?matches=278

[AMuzi]

Yes, exactly.

Wise beyond his era. A truly inspired thinker.

[Catrike Rider]

That plan never made it, though. The state run insurance is not
limited to just hurricanes.

[Catrike Rider]

Crime is also a government problem

[Catrike Rider]

More people living in places where fires occur.

[AMuzi]

Which leads to extrajudicial solutions:

https://cwbchicago.com/2023/08/pizzeria-worker-severely-injured-armed-robber-with-pizza-cutter-chicago-police-say.html

https://710wor.iheart.com/content/2023-08-17-woman-fatally-shoots-registered-sex-offender-breaking-into-her-home/

Although some people feel it's better to bleed out while
waiting for 911 to come write a report.

[sms]

T

On 8/18/2023 1:58 AM, John B. wrote:

>> As more and more Californians leave the state.
>
> Based on population figures it doesn't look like that many people but
> that may be because skilled people leaving and unskilled moving in,

Yes, the population of California is still increasing, albeit slowly.
More people are coming in than are moving out. There is still a net
influx of high-income tech workers and an outflow of older residents
looking to cash out of their high-value houses. The increased property
taxes when homes are sold is a good thing. But when extremely wealthy
people leave, this hurts state income taxes, though there isn't a huge
number of such individuals.

South Florida is on its last mortgage cycle. Getting a new mortgage will
require a very large down payment as well as a huge insurance premium
since so few companies are willing to insure houses in Florida. It's
really not fair because the northern part of the state is not really
subject to the same climate change issues of flooding and hurricanes.

Earlier this year, my brother's house in south Florida was flooded. He's
lived there for about 45 years and this is the first time the rain was
so heavy and prolonged that a significant portion of the city flooded.
He had no flood insurance because he had never seen a need, which was a
lucky thing. FEMA paid him quickly and he was not out any money at all
despite a five figure dollar amount. Those with flood insurance were
worse off because they were not entitled to FEMA money until they paid
their flood insurance deductible and received their flood insurance
payout, then if they were still not made whole FEMA might give them
something.

Personally I think that purchasers of homes in that area that they must
have flood insurance, that it is unfair that they be bailed out (no pun
intended) for making bad purchasing decisions. For existing homeowners
that owned their homes there should also be some requirement for some
flood insurance.

[John B.]

And Abraham Lincoln said "a government of the people, by the people
and for the people"

And (:-) it might remembered that the "United States" was formed to
be, literally, a union made of the States who administrated their own
affairs. As James Madison stated, “The powers reserved to the several
States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of
affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people,
and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State,”

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I would ask, "but does the government decide in "our best interest?"
Always? Ever?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Modern USA ignores the 10th Amendment.

[AMuzi]

The government? Is that a joke? Never.

[John B.]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2023 08:26:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>

And
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-16/smash-and-grabs-flash-mob-robberies-shopper-fear-retailer-concern
https://www.foxnews.com/us/smash-and-grab-thieves-attack-stores-around-the-country-california-security-guard-shot-dead-as-crime-rages

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Well, it's sort of like prostitution. You pays your money and she does
what you want. Except in this case it is the Federal Government paying
the money and the State doing what it is told.

Illinois will receive $8.1 billion in direct state fiscal aid and $5.2
billion in local government aid from the federal government. As of
January 2022,

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

And, at least in some instances, the laws get written by people who
appear to know little about the subject. Example: California laws
regarding illegal firearm types states in part:

"Aftermarket changes or modifications made to certain single shot
pistols (i.e. changing upper receivers, connecting gas tubes) may be
considered manufacturing these pistols into assault weapons."

If you modify a single shot pistol into an assault weapon it is no
longer a single shot pistol. Is it?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 07:55:24 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Not always, of course, but way to often. There are other
psuedo-government entities that do it too. Labor unions are an example
of that.

[AMuzi]

Besides no real command of English.
There's no possible way to make a singe shot pistol into a
sturmgewehr.

[sms]

On 8/18/2023 6:11 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-16/smash-and-grabs-flash-mob-robberies-shopper-fear-retailer-concern
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/smash-and-grab-thieves-attack-stores-around-the-country-california-security-guard-shot-dead-as-crime-rages

This crime increase has partially resulted from the "solution" that
California came up with to comply with a federal mandate to alleviate
prison overcrowding.

The "solution" was to transfer lower-level criminals to county jails.
But the counties don't have nearly enough jail space to house so many
criminals from State prisons _plus_ all the other criminals. So for
property crimes like burglary the likelihood of someone spending much,
or any, time in jail, even in the unlikely event they are arrested, is
small. So in many cities the police just don't spend time on shoplifting
or car break-ins since they know that the perpetrator will be back on
the street shortly anyway. Since police departments are often very
understaffed, the police concentrate on violent crimes.

You would think that the solution to the prison overcrowding would be to
add more prison space, but that is not happening. Instead, the State is
closing prisons. It comes down to money. It costs about $100K per year
to house a prisoner in a California State prison. If there were a ballot
measure to raise taxes to fund the construction and operation of more
prisons it is not clear if people would vote for it. There are also many
prisoners with life sentences that are no longer a threat but they are
not being released because to do so would cause a public outcry.

[AMuzi]

One of many contributing factors and assorted policy failures.:

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics/criminal-noncitizen-statistics

https://www.fairus.org/issue/border-security/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/crimes-illegal-immigrants-widespread-across-us-sanctuaries-shouldnt

Any plan to rebate some of California's revenue to long
suffering taxpayers who don't enjoy public safety?

[Catrike Rider]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2023 09:08:16 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/18/2023 6:11 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-16/smash-and-grabs-flash-mob-robberies-shopper-fear-retailer-concern
>> https://www.foxnews.com/us/smash-and-grab-thieves-attack-stores-around-the-country-california-security-guard-shot-dead-as-crime-rages
>
>This crime increase has partially resulted from the "solution" that
>California came up with to comply with a federal mandate to alleviate
>prison overcrowding.
>
>The "solution" was to transfer lower-level criminals to county jails.
>But the counties don't have nearly enough jail space to house so many
>criminals from State prisons _plus_ all the other criminals. So for
>property crimes like burglary the likelihood of someone spending much,
>or any, time in jail, even in the unlikely event they are arrested, is
>small. So in many cities the police just don't spend time on shoplifting
>or car break-ins since they know that the perpetrator will be back on
>the street shortly anyway. Since police departments are often very
>understaffed, the police concentrate on violent crimes.
>
>You would think that the solution to the prison overcrowding would be to
>add more prison space, but that is not happening. Instead, the State is
>closing prisons. It comes down to money. It costs about $100K per year
>to house a prisoner in a California State prison. If there were a ballot
>measure to raise taxes to fund the construction and operation of more
>prisons it is not clear if people would vote for it. There are also many
>prisoners with life sentences that are no longer a threat but they are
>not being released because to do so would cause a public outcry.

Excuses, excuses....

The dimwitted local governments cut their police force, and the
remaing police have their hands tied, and all that is causing others
to quit. The judicial systems in the USA are also a joke. People
arming themselves is the only logical answer.

[Tom Kunich]

Even worse - the local DA's are firstly releasing criminals without any bail and then NOT EVEN PROSECUTING even murderers.

[Frank Krygowski]

The problem with your argument is that non-citizens are much better
behaved than citizens.

https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-are-half-as-likely-to-be-arrested-for-violent-crimes-as-u-s-born-citizens/

Making non-citizens a scapegoat won't solve the jail capacity problem.
As I've said many times, if you want to lock millions more people up for
much longer times, you'll have to raise taxes.

"No more taxes!" translates as "Let the convicts loose!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Not to argue that immigrants don't commit crimes but I think that the
"percent of crime committed" proportions are firmly on the side of the
U.S. citizen :-)

But regardless of illegal immigrant crime rate the solution is really
very simple.... do as Thailand does. The Thai penalty for employing an
illegal immigrant is, a maximum fine of 100,000 baht for each illegal
employed and if it is a repeat offence the penalty can be as much as a
200,000 baht fine per illegal employee and a 1 year jail sentence.

To convert to U.S, values, the current minimum wage in Thailand is
340 baht per day.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 07:40:56 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

There's no need for the illegals in the USA to become employed, the
various federal, state and local governments will take care of them.

[John B.]

(:-) And Tommy rants and raves about socialism (:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

Now days, prison is less of a deterrent than deportation.

[AMuzi]

You obfuscated there. Legal immigrants have extremely low
incidence of crime, one of many reasons we generally embrace
immigration. Illegal entry is an utterly different thing.

[AMuzi]

In principle you're right

In practice the unrelenting onslaught of regulatory
punishment of employers makes cash employees a reasonable
calculated risk for many industries.

[John B.]

Perhaps.

One of my Thai relatives runs a wholesale food business and at one
time employed several illegal immigrants. From Cambodia I believe. At
the time Cambodians would work for from half to two thirds the
Thailand legal minimum salary. When the new harsher penalties came
into effect he, reluctantly let them go.

Re the much lower salary for Illegal's... we had one worked as a
housemaid for us. Half the legal minimum salary and she was happy.She
told me that the salary she was getting here was 2 to perhaps 3 times
what she would be able to make "at home". And, at least in her case,
she wasn't really an "immigrant" as she sent her salary home to
Cambodia every month by bank transfer and obviously planned to go home
when she had enough money.

As for "calculated risk" the fine for each illegal worker amounts to,
in Thai terms, 249 days salary at minimum salary. What would 249 days
salary at minimum salary rates be in Illinois? I read it is $13/hour,
call it $104/8 hour day. To match the actual financial burden of
Thailand the Illinois fine for each Illegal would be $25,890.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Regarding US labor regulation, it's not the difference in
employee net pay so much as the employer's stack of
'incidental' expenses which make a huge void between legal
employment and cash labor on the gross expense side.

Employer matches the payroll taxes, has a fiduciary
liability for withholding and reporting, pays state and fed
UC and WC and in many States must add on lagniappes of
varying expense, some quite extreme.

[Tom Kunich]

OK,, everyone got this now? The drug cartels are not responsible for the growing numbers of opioid deaths, human trafficking and street wars. While this stupid ass is telling us how afraid he is of AR15's he is also telling us that the people that are actually using them to shoot people on the freeways are kind, loving and law abiding citizens. Side shows being held at large intersections aren't being caused by illegal aliens but by white people and the widespread causes of homelessness - 2 and 3 families living to a house paying rents that would make large house payments in Kansas are sim[y law abiding citizens causing no harm whatsoever.

Frank, is there one fucking idiotic thing that some far left "journalist" cannot convince you of?

[Frank Krygowski]

So - got data?

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

YGBSM.

This is well known, well publicized and has been for years:

https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/crime-records/texas-criminal-illegal-alien-data

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/illegal-immigrants-arrested-fy-2020-had-average-four-criminal-convictions-or-charges

https://prisoninsight.com/how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-in-california-prisons/

[Frank Krygowski]

ISTM you're throwing out a "number salad," analogous to the "word salad"
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/word-salad
IOW, you threw out links to numbers that were vaguely related, but
didn't address the point at hand.

Let's back up: You've complained many times that those accused or
convicted of crimes are not in prison. I've said more prison space would
mean higher taxes. "No new taxes" translates as "No more prison space."

Now the claims have shifted to illegal aliens causing overstuffing
prisons. But compared to true blue born-in-the-USA citizens, illegal
aliens are much better behaved. They don't seem to be the cause of
overstuffed prisons.

Your numbers show that yes, badly behaved illegal aliens do exist. That
does NOT prove your thesis that "Criminals Aren't Incarcerated _because_
Illegal Aliens Overstuffed Prisons."

Show me data that illegal aliens are the cause of prison over-stuffing.
I think info on the percentage of inmates who are illegal aliens would
be a good beginning.

Maybe start here:
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_citizenship.jsp

Then understand that not every citizen of another country is here
illegally.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[sms]

On 8/19/2023 10:02 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
<snip>

One crime-reduction strategy can be based on research done in Texas:
"In 2018, the illegal immigrant criminal conviction rate was 782 per
100,000 illegal immigrants, 535 per 100,000 legal immigrants, and 1,422
per 100,000 native‐​born Americans. The illegal immigrant criminal
conviction rate was 45 percent below that of native‐​born Americans in
Texas. The general pattern of native‐​born Americans having the highest
criminal conviction rates followed by illegal immigrants and then with
legal immigrants having the lowest holds for all of other specific types
of crimes such as violent crimes, property crimes, homicide, and sex
crimes." See
<https://www.cato.org/blog/new-research-illegal-immigration-crime-0>.

So clearly the solution to crime is to increase legal immigration,
decrease illegal immigration, and then figure out what to do about the
group with the highest crime rate: native-born citizens. Pretty sure
that the Heritage Foundation will not favor deporting native-born citizens.

[sms]

On 8/20/2023 6:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> You obfuscated there. Legal immigrants have extremely low incidence of
> crime, one of many reasons we generally embrace immigration.  Illegal
> entry is an utterly different thing.

Except that illegal immigrants have a much lower incidence of crime than
native born citizens. Higher than legal immigrants, but much lower than
native born citizens. Do you favor deporting native-born citizens in an
effort to lower crime?

[AMuzi]

You addressed an argument I did not make. (although
mentioned by data sources)

Even illegals find it extremely difficult to achieve
incarceration; usually takes a few convictions at least.
Numbers of illegal alien felons imprisoned reflect some
small subset of illegal alien criminals.

[AMuzi]

On 8/20/2023 1:02 PM, sms wrote:
> On 8/20/2023 6:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> You obfuscated there. Legal immigrants have extremely low
>> incidence of crime, one of many reasons we generally
>> embrace immigration.  Illegal entry is an utterly
>> different thing.
>
> Except that illegal immigrants have a much lower incidence
> of crime than native born citizens. Higher than legal
> immigrants, but much lower than native born citizens. Do you
> favor deporting native-born citizens in an effort to lower
> crime?
>

Illegal entry is a crime in itself. At one time, we deported
illegals, under statutes of very long standing.

[Catrike Rider]

Now we reward them....

[AMuzi]

A conservative number is $12,000,000,000.00 for one city for
one year...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/09/nyregion/adams-nyc-migrants-cost.html

which doesn't include total costs at all.

[Tom Kunich]

Communist propaganda is all contained in divide and conquer. And Frank being a good little communist believes every word without EVER bothering to look these things up.

[Tom Kunich]

You have to think about this for a minute or two - Scharf is a failed politicians who wants back on the gravy train and while Krygowski is telling us about how honest and great illegal aliens are, that POS lives in one of the whitest areas in the entire USA. Scharf has something to gain and Krygowski doesn't have to put up with the communist claims he makes.

[sms]

Obama greatly increased the deportation rate versus W.

Clinton greatly increased the deportation rate versus Bush senior.

It appears that anyone that favors deportation is voting Democratic.

While fans of right-wing Republicans decry illegal immigration, and want
more deportations, the reality is that the real entities that matter to
Republican politicians are the big businesses that are dependent on the
labor of illegal immigrants; big agribusiness, meat packing, developers,
and the hospitality industry.

The father of modern conservatism, Ronald Reagan, signed an immigration
reform bill that granted amnesty to illegal immigrants in the country
prior to 1982. But Republicans insisted on stripping out the strict
sanctions on employers. W. proposed a guest worker program in 2004
<https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040107-3.html>
but it went nowhere.

The reality is that guest worker programs are a key element of stopping
illegal immigration. When a worker can come to the U.S., and send money
back to his or her family, and go back and forth freely, illegal
immigration falls and U.S. companies get legal workers that are more
difficult to exploit.

[Tom Kunich]

Believe anything you like. You probably know for certain that the moon is made out of green cheese.

[John B.]

See https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/departments-justice-and-homeland-security-release-data-incarcerated-aliens

From the first reference "Some 26% of those held in Federal prisons
are illegal immigrants."

It appears that a large number are held for Immigration offences but
there are a substantial number held for other crimes.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I think you are outlining the advantages for a U.S. employer using
illegal immigrants while I was pointing out the method Thailand uses
to limit the number of Illegal's employed by the rather draconian
penalties levered on the employer for employing them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 12:13:01 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Communist propaganda"??

And just what is that in this day and age? Are the Chinese trying to
brain wash you to buy Communist made bicycles?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 13:58:55 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

I'm not sure that is correct. The so called "green card" workers have
been legally working in the U.S. for least 50 years and probably even
longer, to my personal knowledge, which doesn't seem to have much of
an effect on the Illegal immigrants.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Employers, in Thailand or USA, do practical actuary work in
risk assessment and cost/benefit modeling.

There's the fine amount over probability of being exposed
and then there's the difference in total employer cost for
legal vs cash employees. Oh, and other factors such as
criminal penalties for a workplace injury of an illegal
employee, reduced efficiency/productivity of illegals
(inexperienced and often illiterate in their own language ) etc.

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 12:21:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I keep asking you about these "with the communist claims" you keep
mentioning? Do you mean that the claim that China - the mainland folks
- make 87% of the bicycles in the world?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 13:19:55 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>

I keep telling you it's "easy peasy", A $25,000 fine, or 6 months jail
sentence, for each illegal employed and of course government hand outs
only to documented citizens and documented immigrants.

By the way, anti immigration laws in the U.S. date back some years -
The Page Act of 1875 (Sect. 141, 18 Stat. 477, 3 March 1875) was the
first restrictive federal immigration law in the United States.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 11:02:50 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/20/2023 6:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> You obfuscated there. Legal immigrants have extremely low incidence of
>> crime, one of many reasons we generally embrace immigration.  Illegal
>> entry is an utterly different thing.
>
>Except that illegal immigrants have a much lower incidence of crime than
>native born citizens. Higher than legal immigrants, but much lower than
>native born citizens. Do you favor deporting native-born citizens in an
>effort to lower crime?

Question... Who would take them?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

ROn Sun, 20 Aug 2023 18:28:54 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>

Re fine versus probability of being exposed....

I think that here (and probably in the U.S,) the "probability" is
largely, "do the Cops want to look?" as all a "foreigner" of any sort
has to do is open his or her mouth and it becomes obvious that "they
aren't one of us". And that is largely true in most countries.

"Hello, what's your name" is not an intrusive question and it is
usually a dead giveaway for "He ain't from around here".
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

In theory you are correct.
In practice there's the old chinese quip, 'The mountain is
high and the emperor is far away.'

[Frank Krygowski]

A friend is having her house re-roofed. It's been a ridiculous saga.
She hired a local guy recommended by a couple friends. He was apparently
hiring guys he found on the street and paying them by the day. Many of
them repeatedly failed to show up for work, showed no initiative and
botched much of the work they managed to do. Astonishingly, the project
went on for weeks, with most of that being dead time.

She finally fired that little company. She's now got a company staffed with
Guatemalans taking over. She texted me many photos of the work being
done today. It's proceeding very rapidly, as a roof job should, and apparently
it's being done well.

The previous workers were all young Americans, well tattooed. I don't know if the
current workers are legal or illegal immigrants. I wouldn't be surprised if these guys were
illegal. I doubt my friend cares.

- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

True, and certainly here, one method would be to befriend a policeman
but, as I said, my nephew, by marriage, tells me that from his point
of view it is cheaper to Not employ illegal foreigners, which while I
never discussed actual numbers leads me to believe that friendly
police might become more expensive then employing local, i.e. legal,
workers.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 8/20/2023 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:

<snip>

> I keep telling you it's "easy peasy", A $25,000 fine, or 6 months jail
> sentence, for each illegal employed and of course government hand outs
> only to documented citizens and documented immigrants.

Big business, that gives a lot of campaign donations to Republicans, do
not want such penalties. That makes it not "easy peasy." Businesses need
those illegal immigrant workers. Already, illegal immigrants don't
qualify for most government programs, so that would not be much of a
change. A guest worker program would be great but it would mean not
being able to exploit illegal immigrants, i.e.
<https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/illegal-immigration-hayward-construction-company-forced-labor-worker-abuse-ice/>.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

<SIGH> Another Krygowski "friend" story, straight from his
imagination.. He seems to think they advance his agenda....

[John B.]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:10:54 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/20/2023 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I keep telling you it's "easy peasy", A $25,000 fine, or 6 months jail
>> sentence, for each illegal employed and of course government hand outs
>> only to documented citizens and documented immigrants.
>
>Big business, that gives a lot of campaign donations to Republicans, do
>not want such penalties. That makes it not "easy peasy." Businesses need
>those illegal immigrant workers. Already, illegal immigrants don't
>qualify for most government programs, so that would not be much of a
>change. A guest worker program would be great but it would mean not
>being able to exploit illegal immigrants, i.e.
><https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/illegal-immigration-hayward-construction-company-forced-labor-worker-abuse-ice/>.

Of course political donations are a large factor in government
actions, the cost of running for a political office is, to say the
least, A Lot! And, of course much, probably most, of this money comes
from contributions. And there is an old proverb, "One hand washes the
other", said to have originated in Germany and first translated into
English by William Bavand in 1599.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Allow me to translate the dumbasses response...

DADDY!!! LOOK AT ME DADDY!!! DADDYDADDYDADDYDADDYDADDY LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME!!!!!!

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:10:54 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/20/2023 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I keep telling you it's "easy peasy", A $25,000 fine, or 6 months jail
>> sentence, for each illegal employed and of course government hand outs
>> only to documented citizens and documented immigrants.
>
>Big business, that gives a lot of campaign donations to Republicans, do
>not want such penalties. That makes it not "easy peasy." Businesses need
>those illegal immigrant workers. Already, illegal immigrants don't
>qualify for most government programs, so that would not be much of a
>change. A guest worker program would be great but it would mean not
>being able to exploit illegal immigrants, i.e.
><https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/illegal-immigration-hayward-construction-company-forced-labor-worker-abuse-ice/>.

I have no problem with the so-called exploitation if illegals. Maybe
if it was even worse, it would deter them from becoming illegals in
the first place.

[John B.]

I can only comment on what I see "here" and not on what happens
"there", But here people from Cambodia and whatever is the current
name for what used to be Burma see only the amazing wages that they
can earn here. As I had previously written, we had an illegal
housemaid who told me that here, on less then the mandated minimum
salary she was making at least twice what she could make at home.

I suspect that the same situation is what lures American Illegal's to
come to the U.S.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 18:43:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's what's happening in the USA.

[AMuzi]

That's not right.
Seneca quotes 'manus manum lavat' a millenium and a half earlier

[AMuzi]

Besides which most of USA provides free county rent, food
stamps, free medical and free schools (such as they are;
probably a fair price given the product) as long as there's
no 'official' paycheck with taxes etc.

[sms]

On 8/21/2023 5:59 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> Besides which most of USA provides free county rent, food stamps, free
> medical and free schools (such as they are; probably a fair price given
> the product) as long as there's no 'official' paycheck with taxes etc.

Wow, not sure where you got that idea, but illegal immigrants don't
qualify for subsidized housing or food stamps or medical care, other
than treatment at an ER (which anyone without any money can get) and
vaccinations.

"Undocumented immigrants, including DACA holders, are ineligible to
receive most federal public benefits, including means-tested benefits
such as Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, sometimes
referred to as food stamps), regular Medicaid, Supplemental Security
Income (SSI), and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF).
Undocumented immigrants are ineligible for health care subsidies under
the Affordable Care Act (ACA) and are prohibited from purchasing
unsubsidized health coverage on ACA exchanges.

Undocumented immigrants may be eligible for a handful of benefits that
are deemed necessary to protect life or guarantee safety in dire
situations, such as emergency Medicaid, access to treatment in hospital
emergency rooms, or access to healthcare and nutrition programs under
the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and
Children (WIC)."

Access to public schools is available, because the alternative to having
the children of illegal immigrants roaming the streets while their
parents are at work is much worse. Anyone can get food at a food bank,
they don't check your income or immigration status.

As long as big business insists on allowing illegal immigration we have
an obligation to not have them being sick and spreading disease, so
vaccinations are important, especially considering the jobs that they
usually have. We also don't want their children roaming the streets so
they should be in school, though you're correct about some schools, not
sure I would want _any_ child, regardless of immigration status, going
to public school in Florida. The whole "drivers licenses" thing was also
amusing since the alternative is having them simply drive without licenses.

If you look at the deportation rates under different presidents you can
see just who is benefiting from the exploitation of illegal immigrants
and who doesn't want them deported.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 06:52:46 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

> not
>sure I would want _any_ child, regardless of immigration status, going
>to public school in Florida.

You have a problem with school children being protected from
pornography, or did you fall for the leftist nonsense concerning
"don't say gay?"

[John B.]

Certainly sufficient "for "poor folks" to travel a long way to obtain.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

In theory illegal entry is a crime, subject to deportation.
In theory illegals charged with other crimes are supposed to
be turned over to INS. In theory illegals are not supposed
to be a public charge. In practice none of those things are
enforced in most of USA.

And schools? Really? Let's score that:

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?chort=1&sub=MAT&sj=&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2022R3

Oh by the way larger entities are much more strictly audited
and and enforcement of labor laws are routine. It's small
business (roofers, restaurants, refuse, transportation etc)
where the incentives and risks change favorably to illegal
labor.

[Tom Kunich]

Leave it to you to quote CBS news which lies about almost everything. We are all going to die from a tropical storm that hit San Diego is the latest from them.

[Tom Kunich]

Well my cross the street neighbor did the same thing and not only did they do a lousy job but they spotted me bringing a full suspension MTB home and putting it in the backyard until I could clear space in the garage for it and they stole that bike after they stopped work that evening.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 07:27:19 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 9:11:01?PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
>> On 8/20/2023 6:09 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> > I keep telling you it's "easy peasy", A $25,000 fine, or 6 months jail
>> > sentence, for each illegal employed and of course government hand outs
>> > only to documented citizens and documented immigrants.
>> Big business, that gives a lot of campaign donations to Republicans, do
>> not want such penalties. That makes it not "easy peasy." Businesses need
>> those illegal immigrant workers. Already, illegal immigrants don't
>> qualify for most government programs, so that would not be much of a
>> change. A guest worker program would be great but it would mean not
>> being able to exploit illegal immigrants, i.e.
>> <https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/illegal-immigration-hayward-construction-company-forced-labor-worker-abuse-ice/>.
>> --

>> 的f you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it

>> really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
>> indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as

>> they do about the subject.迫Tin Foil Awards

>Leave it to you to quote CBS news which lies about almost everything. We are all going to die from a tropical storm that hit San Diego is the latest from them.

Well, gosh, isn't part of the media's responsibility to frighten the
people?

[AMuzi]

Some might say that a bicycle left outdoors overnight is a
gift not a theft.

[Tom Kunich]

In a backyard behind a gate? The gate now is locked whenever I am not out riding. The garage has three locks on it. The front door had a heavy locked screendoor besides the original hollow door. I keep planning on replacing that with a heavy door with anti-break-in locks but every time i walk into Home Depot they have doubled the price on them. Two local door companies have been driven out of business because of the inflation rendering people with no money for any home improvements.

I went to a Mexican Restaurant last night and for me and the wife it was $70 and my usual 20% tip.

[Frank Krygowski]

And if I post some of the many photos my friend texted me of the work in
progress, the emotional cripple from Florida will somehow discount those.

If a person is so afraid of people as to not have any friends, I guess
it's hard to believe that others don't share his affliction.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

How strange for a multi-millionaire to be complaining about the cost of
high security doors, or the cost of a restaurant meal!

Roughly half the time we leave our house, I don't bother locking the
door. In all the decades we've lived here, nobody has ever tried to
break in.

Well, except our teenaged son, back in the day. He'd forgotten his key
so he found a way to squeeze in a basement window. Since then I did take
minor steps to make that more difficult. But I know that someone could
smash their way into the house rather quickly, if they were determined.
In this neighborhood, the risk is minuscule.

Tom should move out of that hellhole.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 12:59:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 8/21/2023 5:53 AM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:

<LOL> It would be pretty easy to find pictures of roofs being
repaired...

>If a person is so afraid of people as to not have any friends, I guess
>it's hard to believe that others don't share his affliction.

I don't believe you have any real frends, Krygoski. Who would want to
have a friend like you?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/21/2023 10:16 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> In theory illegal entry is a crime, subject to deportation. In theory
> illegals charged with other crimes are supposed to be turned over to
> INS. In theory illegals are not supposed to be a public charge. In
> practice none of those things are enforced in most of USA.

If you say so. But your fix is .... ? (Remember: "No new taxes!!!")

>
> And schools? Really? Let's score that:
>
> https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?chort=1&sub=MAT&sj=&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2022R3

Sorry, you've given a link, but I don't see its relevance to the
discussion. What are you trying to say?

> Oh by the way larger entities are much more strictly audited and and
> enforcement of labor laws are routine.  It's small business (roofers,
> restaurants, refuse, transportation  etc) where the incentives and risks
> change favorably to illegal labor.

And again: Your fix is... ?

Complaining is easy, even when there's very little to complain about.
Practical solutions to real problems are much more difficult, and rarely
meet the "Just do THIS!!!" simplicity of certain pundits and their
followers.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

How about I come back to Poland and teach you what a hell-hole is? It's only a 42 hour drive from my house to there where broken bones and missing teeth might demonstrate the sort of thing you wish on others. The reason I am a millionaire is exactly because I think about the cost of things - I don't worry about them. But perhaps you should worry about what the side effects of your comments may visit upon you.

[Catrike Rider]

The "fix" is border security and deportation, of course.

[AMuzi]

hmmmm. What if there were plenty of funds available for
other purposes?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/09/nyregion/adams-nyc-migrants-cost.html

[Tom Kunich]

This is what the stupid 4 have been accusing me of having. But the case is very different. The stupid 4 (originally 5) started out saying that I don't know anything as they would make gross statements of their own worth. Imagine Liebermann showing us a his diploma for electronics engineering when he couldn't get a job in Silicon Valley. The way he taliks about vacuum tubes perhaps he simply couldn't make the transition to transistors. But he could only hold a job as an electronics technician. I was always well disposed towards technicians but I have to admit, I never heard a real technician say that he knew all about computers because he could change a mother board out of a PC. But nevertheless I wouldn't bother him except he talks about things he hasn't even a passing acquaintance with as if he were an expert at it.

You will notice that Scharf is always careful not to say what he does for a living but aside from being a failed politician he claimed that he designed bicycles. It isn't as if that is a hard thing to do (Doug Schwerma, a friend, designed drag motorcycles while I was still road racing motorcycles) so I'm willing to give him that if it was still the days of steel bikes. But what does he do now?

Krygowski is so egotistical he believes that reciting the contents of an engineering manual in front of a class made him an engineering expert. Obviously he doesn't know what most of his students thought of him. Not that most students don't have poor opinions of teachers on the whole.

Flunky is a giant question mark. He says one thing and then a couple of days later says the opposite. He too claims to be an electronics engineer. But from the things he says he is a manufacturing engineer. That's fine but why should he be ashamed of it if only because he has argued about things with me that I have done and made lots and lots of money doing. I worked for some of the best companies in Silicon Valley and reading him spout bullshit should cause him to be ashamed but the man has no shame.

I did not even mention what I did for a living for many, many years with the exception of criticizing Jobst when he tried creeping into my area of expertise. In many ways Jobst was a good guy but he reacted to criticism the same way as Flunky - with bitter hatred no matter how true the criticism was.

So the stupid 4 are now reduced to either lying or quoting far left articles to the point that they are nothing more than Google quoters. Krygowski is telling us that illegal aliens are the most respectable people in this country. And he lives in the whitest area of the USA. With all of the experience with illegal aliens he would really know about them.

[Tom Kunich]

California is now illegally running a deficit because the workers cannot pay for all of the benefits being paid to illegal aliens.

https://usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-california-debt-clock.html

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2023 11:28:41 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sell, to be fair, Krygowski has bragged about riding his bicycle
around people of "other races," as if that was something to brag
about.